Tuesday, 2018-04-24

tonybdhellmann: Yup we've gone a back-and-forth on that a little, the only real down side to havign the campaigning period overlap with nominatiosn is during that phase it's unclear who the candidates are and havign new candidates go back and answer the questions wasn't well recieved when we did that and thus we created the explict window00:02
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ttxRe: having those discussions all year round rather than every 6 month -- We could institute a "topic of the week" type of tradition. I don't think we'd have enough time and topics to discuss at the rate we are discussing in campaign period. A lot of people are ignoring those threads due to how long it takes to pproperly read / participate in them07:38
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cmurphyhello tc-members09:00
cdentthe time is now09:01
cdentmorning cmurphy09:01
cmurphymorning cdent09:02
cmurphymorning ttx09:02
* ttx reads the campaign threads09:02
* cmurphy did lots of reading this morning09:03
cdentlots of good stuff in there09:03
cdenteveryone should answer09:03
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cmurphymorning eumel809:10
cdentnot a lot of action in office hours lately09:27
ttxWould be great if voters came and asked us live questions !09:28
eumel8only lurking ;)09:28
ttxcdent: you say that the TC approving new projects leads to our action being more visible to new people than existing people09:33
ttxI guess the counterexample is the Goal stuff, which is also proactive action targeted to existing people09:33
ttxis that the type of thing you'd like to see more of ?09:34
cdentttx did I say that? What thing did you interpret as that?09:40
ttxerr... let me see09:41
mugsiecdent: the office hours do seem to be in a cycle of boom and bust09:42
mugsiethere will be a week or two where the office hours nearly merge together, followed by stillness09:42
ttxcdent: when you say "This is an important question because project applications are one09:44
ttxof the few ways in which the TC exercises any direct influence over09:45
ttxthe shape and direction of OpenStack. Much of the rest of the time09:45
ttxthe TC's influence is either indirect or limited. That's something I09:45
ttxthink we should change, in part because I feel the role of the TC09:45
ttxshould be at least as, if not more, focused on the day-to-day09:45
ttxexperiences and capabilities of existing contributors as it is on09:45
ttxnew ones.09:45
ttxI interpreted that as "we should have more of proactive decisions that are focused on existing contributors"09:46
cdentAh, yeah, that. That's not about visibility to new or existing people. It's about us exercising power. In my experience we've chosen (as the TC) to not exercise power, to even claim that we don't have it, except with regard to accepting (or denying) new projects. I think that lets down the democratic promise made by us being elected by existing contributors. They hope for something in return.09:46
cdentYes, that interpretation is correct, but I'm struggling to connect that to your initial statement09:47
ttxok, "visibility" is the wrong term there09:47
ttxBy "being more visible" I was meaning use of power09:48
ttxso we agree09:48
ttxwould you consider the Goal stuff something in the right direction, or the bad direction ?09:48
cdentI mentioned elsewhere that I think the goals are a useful thing but miss a critical aspect. Let me find that.09:49
* ttx continues to read then09:49
cdent" OpenStack-wide goals are also helpful, but they tend to be very specific and don't do much to help answer "no" to the question: "is this thing I'm considering aligned with the current themes?""09:50
cdentA thing I think existing contributors is an easier way to say no to the too many things to do. Ways to choose and feel okay with making those choices09:51
cdentI think there's a stronger than healthy sense of risk that if one does not do everything available to be done, then one is letting down something/someone09:52
cdents/is an easier/need is an easier/09:53
ttxThere is good stuff in those threads10:24
ttxcdent: Re: "we need maintainers", RockyG did submit an interesting session for the Vancouver Forum on that10:26
* cdent looks10:31
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smcginnisSkipping way back, but I like the idea of encouraging these candidate questions before the campaign week.13:03
smcginnisIt might also act as a good way to get others aware and interested in running.13:03
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fungiof 2518 code contributors and extra atcs for the pike and queens development cycle time periods, 2024 currently have matching active foundation individual memberships and so should have received ballots for the tc election14:03
fungithat's 80%, which is higher than i expected14:04
dhellmannwhat makes a membership inactive?14:11
dhellmannfwiw, https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tc-office-hour-conversation-starters was meant to be a place to collect these sorts of questions so we *could* have regular conversations14:23
dhellmannmaybe picking 1 of those each week would be a good next step14:23
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smcginnisWhat is the next step for Forum topic selection?14:26
mtreinishdhellmann: iirc if you don't vote in the board elections the membership goes inactive. But it's been a while since I looked at it, so I might be misremembering14:26
dhellmannmtreinish : ah, right. I couldn't remember if we added that rule to help reach quorum or if we got rid of that rule14:27
mtreinishyeah, #3: https://www.openstack.org/legal/individual-member-policy/14:29
clarkbif you15:05
clarkbif you've gone inactive I think you just click ab utton in your profile to say you are active again too15:05
clarkbso not a permanent state15:05
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fungithough it's also possible to have an active foundation membership not associated with your code contributions if you don't have any of the same e-mail addresses in your member profile or gerrit15:37
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fungias long as at least one of your gerrit e-mail addresses is included in one of the address fields for your member profile, we can associate them with the foundation member lookup api15:38
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dhellmannttx: looking over the responses from platinum and gold members in the annual report, it's clear we're going to need to be a little more specific in the way we phrase the question about contribution15:43
dhellmannmaybe if we say something like "please highlight any work you have contributed toward the community goals list, help most wanted areas, ..." that would help15:44
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dhellmannthere is lots of talk about sponsoring events, which we don't want to discourage, but that's not really the sort of answer we were looking for either15:45
dhellmannalthough it's interesting to note that the companies do see that as important enough to mention when asked about their contributions15:45
cdentIt's what I would describe as an "easy win"15:46
dhellmannI wonder if we have enough information, using the completion artifact links, to assemble the information going the other direction15:46
dhellmanncdent : they also didn't have a lot of space in the report, it seems, so I'm not sure how much detail they would have really gone into15:47
dhellmannit's not a bad start, but it didn't immediately give us the sort of answer we were after15:48
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dhellmannI can never find the UI for searching for community members on the openstack.org site15:57
dhellmannoh, maybe that's only speakers anyway15:59
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dhellmannaha https://www.openstack.org/community/members/15:59
cdentdhellmann: I frequently lose that too16:02
dhellmannso far the first 2 people I've searched for don't appear in the results16:02
dhellmannI guess I should look at whatever API fungi and the election folks use to get people by email address16:02
dhellmannfungi : ty16:06
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cdentnote to self: avoid reading code that is prefixed with "The giant pile of spaghetti..."16:06
fungidhellmann: it's an anonymous api provided by https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/openstackid-resources/tree/app/Models/Foundation/Main/Member.php but missing documentation for the moment16:06
dhellmannthe function you linked seems easy enough16:07
fungicdent: i also recommend you avoid reading code which comes in files with a .php extension ;)16:07
dhellmannI'm actually wondering if owners.py could be adapted to look at a specific set of changes16:07
dhellmannthen if I had another tool to build that list, I could pass it to the version of owners that produces human and company names as output16:08
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fungiprobably wouldn't be too hard, given you can use the -s option owners.py provides to constrain the changes query however you like16:10
dhellmannyeah, there's a loop over a set of changes16:10
ttxdhellmann: "strategic contributions that benefit all the community" was the way the question was phrased really. I even went through specific examples.16:10
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ttxThe trick is, I think, that their blurb has to go through a lot of martketing and legal hoops before being published16:11
fungiwe normally rely on that for limiting the query to stable branch name patterns so we can build the stable maintenance electorate, but it can really be used to filter on any additional query parameters gerrit's search api language supports16:11
dhellmannthat makes the responses even more informative in terms of priorities16:11
ttxin the end depending on the company you can end up with a meaningless random string of letters16:11
dhellmannfungi : yeah, in this case I think the list of patches is likely something we'd have to assemble by hand16:11
mugsiettx: I don't think we want it as a blurb, we want raw data that we can use for a report16:11
dhellmannpeople were not consistent with using topic tags, for example16:12
ttxmugsie: like what? number of commits ? Remember Goodhart's law16:12
fungidhellmann: you can constrain a gerrit search to a list of change ids, so could constrain to those with -s16:12
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dhellmannfungi : that's a good point16:12
dhellmannwe could count any contribution toward a goal the same for the first iteration16:13
mugsiettx: true, but anything is better then where we are now. asking for blurbs is not going to get us the info we need16:13
dhellmann"these companies contributed to the community goal of having policy in code: A, B, C"16:13
mugsiee.g. the company I work for (which is just a corporate sponsor) has more upstream devs than the latest platnium member16:13
mugsie(even using the numbers they said they have upstream)16:14
dhellmannfungi : does any of this code look at reviewers, too?16:15
ttxcontributing to goals was IIRC explicitly mentioned as a good example in the request16:16
ttxPersonally I think maybe the annual report was not the best place to ask for input16:16
ttxCraetes an incentive to fill the survey, but also makes the final blurb something unusable technically16:17
ttxMaybe we should run it as a survey from the TC and ask engineering managers16:17
cdentI think the raw numbers that mugsie is after may be of more immediate importance16:18
dhellmannsurveying engineering managers would be interesting, too16:18
cdentbut anecdata from engineering managers would be a useful way to engage and learn from people16:19
dhellmannyeah, just as with the annual report it would tell us how they interpret "important" in their response16:19
smcginnisI thought we tried to get the narrative on their contributions because contributing doesn't necessarily equate to number of people.16:20
smcginnisHaving a team of people updating redirected URLs and adding https is different than having a couple folks working on some key functionality. Or even non-code contributions.16:21
dhellmannyes, that's right16:21
dhellmannthe answers are *very* vague, though16:21
cdentsmcginnis: yes, but we are also seeing platinum members that have no apparent contribution16:21
cdent(in terms of code)16:21
smcginnisI had hoped, maybe too optimistically, that those members would be able to justify that condition by showing what other way they are contributing. Other than paying for sponsor level.16:22
mugsieyes - I dont want this as part of the annual report, I want to push this as a BoD / TC sub group (at least initially)16:23
smcginnismugsie: 👍16:23
mugsiewe can decide where the data goes (if it is ever actually publiclly released at all) later16:23
ttxmugsie: also I feel like holding vendors and users to the same contribution standards might be misleading... Vendors tend to start with 100 people then drop to 10 or 0. Users tend to start with 0, then 1, then 2...16:24
mugsiebut this should be used by both us in the dev community side, and the BoD to look at planning for longevity of the project16:24
mugsiettx: we are a user not a vendor16:24
ttxVendors focus on tactical contributions16:24
ttxmugsie: you are exceptional !16:24
ttxUsers are more likely to fix things that affect everyone16:24
mugsiesure - that is a true. But in the latest case I can't see them fixing anything16:25
ttxAlso, when Huawei got Platinum they did not have that many people involved, and now they are the second largest org16:25
dhellmannI would prefer to start out celebrating the folks doing what we ask rather than worrying about anyone not contributing16:26
ttxI choose to see the 3 FTEs that they committed to (with names) as an opportunity rather than a problem16:26
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mugsiedhellmann: we should 100% do that. but not in isolation16:27
mugsiettx: I thought they had a few people involved by then, didnt they?16:28
ttxWith a company the size of Tencent (larger than Facebook!) if you can sway 1% that is a large result16:28
dhellmannI think we'll find that at the board level, those financial contributions are valued just as much as the code we're seeking. And we should think about that perspective, too.16:28
cdentdhellmann: I think that's at the center of the concern here16:29
dhellmannfor my own part, I see that as a reasonable stance to take16:29
jbrycecdent: which platinum members have no contribution in terms of code?16:29
mugsiejbryce: the latest one16:30
mugsieI can't find any evidence of it anyway16:30
dhellmannI wasn't able to identify any listed in the report who hadn't contributed at all16:30
cdentjbryce: "no" was an exagerration, based on early discussions of not being able to find much about tencent in code contriubtion stats16:30
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ttxWe still have a lot more to do to get users more involved in development, but I like to see a user making it to the Board of the Foundation. We should engage with them to make them efficient contributors16:32
ttxAnd given the size of that company, the opportunity is huge16:32
jbrycei've heard that accusation get thrown out at various times about various platinum members and in every case where we've looked into it, it's been incorrect16:33
dhellmannthe next step is to help them find the opportunities to contribute16:33
ttxdhellmann: ++16:33
jbryceand tencent has already contributed to a number of projects (kolla, loci, openstack-ansible, oslo)16:33
dhellmannwhich our "top help wanted" list does, and our goals do16:33
dhellmannwe need to deal with the stackalytics issue, because I can't find tencent in that data at all16:33
ttxdhellmann: we could prepare a "welcome package" from the TC16:33
jbryceyeah stackalytics is definitely a part of the problem16:34
ttx"We are so happy to have you. Here are some awesone opportunities for you to make a real difference!"16:34
dhellmannah, removing the rocky filter does show a few hits16:34
mugsiejbryce: which is why I sugested that we actually collate this data and look at it16:34
cdentdhellmann: yeah, remove rocky, and expand out beyond "official" and you'll get some data, but it looks woefully incompletel16:34
jbrycemugsie: i support having better data. it seems that most of our efforts at this have failed16:35
ttxHowever you slice it, they will never look like Red Hat but I think that's not the point16:35
mugsieno - never, and that is OK16:35
jbryceyeah i agree with that too. but it's also not accurate to position them as having NO contributions16:36
ttxBasically I'm less concerned with contributions from users starting small, that's the way the trends work there16:36
dhellmannit's so much less interesting to me to focus on raw contributions than to understand if companies are helping in areas the community specifically lists as needing help16:36
ttxI'd be concerned if there contribution was going down.16:36
mugsiedhellmann: yes16:36
mugsiebut I think we need to collect that data, potentially as a one off16:37
dhellmannmaybe we could teach stackalytics to aggregate based on goals as well as projects16:37
ttxOne of their guys is a core developer... Freezer iirc16:37
dhellmannof course that brings with it all of the baggage of stackalytics itself16:38
ttxok, I need to run16:38
mugsiethey dont show much (like 4 reviews) in stacklytics for offical projects16:38
dhellmannI've found the book "Nudge" to be very illuminating on these sorts of questions16:40
dhellmannit talks a lot about framing questions/instructions to get the outcome you want as well as designing "choice environments" to encourage an outcome you want16:41
mugsiettx: I dont see anyone from tencent in freezer core16:42
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jbrycewhere are you looking?16:57
jbrycedo you see yang yapeng in there?16:59
mugsieUnless yapeng Yang is now part of tencent16:59
jbrycehe is17:00
mugsieah - the foundation profile and stackalytics showed them as 99cloud17:00
cdentwell that makes rather a difference17:05
jbryceyeah...the data hygiene on this stuff is very difficult. i'll point that out to them to try to get it corrected17:05
jbrycewhen i talk to these companies, i often just ask them to send me gerrit links for their devs and try to remind them to update their affiliations17:06
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fungidhellmann: none of that code looks at reviewers, but you could easily tweak the base query to s/owner/reviewer/ and get a similar effect17:10
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fungidhellmann: i wouldn't trust stackalytics any further than you can kick it17:13
fungii clearly picked the wrong moment to run lunch errands17:14
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openstackgerritDoug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: provide more detail about the expectations we place on goal champions  https://review.openstack.org/56406020:41
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openstackgerritDavid Ames proposed openstack/governance master: charms: Add Neutron Dynamic Routing charm  https://review.openstack.org/56407522:52
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