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| openstackgerrit | Colleen Murphy proposed openstack/governance master: add validation for new repositories https://review.openstack.org/583637 | 08:24 |
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| cdent | cmurphy: have you started anything with designate and health tracking? | 10:49 |
| cmurphy | cdent: no I have not | 10:53 |
| cdent | cmurphy: cool, I'll get that ball rolling | 10:56 |
| cmurphy | thanks cdent | 10:56 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add vice chair role to the tc charter https://review.openstack.org/583947 | 12:21 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: designate Mohammed Naser as vice chair https://review.openstack.org/583948 | 12:21 |
| dhellmann | tc-members: here's something to consider before office hours ^^ | 12:22 |
| EmilienM | ++ | 12:25 |
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| dims | +1 from me dhellmann | 12:31 |
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| dhellmann | EmilienM , dims : thanks! | 12:42 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: show the relative earliest date of approval https://review.openstack.org/583953 | 12:48 |
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| cdent | tc-members, is it office hours time? | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | indeed! | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | Yep | 15:00 |
| * cdent waves hello | 15:00 | |
| TheJulia | feels like that time of the day | 15:00 |
| dims | o/ | 15:00 |
| cmurphy | o/ /me is in another meeting | 15:00 |
| TheJulia | o/ | 15:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 15:01 |
| AlanClark | o/ listening in | 15:01 |
| ttx | Oh! Oh! I have a question! | 15:01 |
| TheJulia | ttx: What is your question?!? | 15:01 |
| ttx | Re: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Technical_Committee_Tracker -- what shall we do of completed items | 15:01 |
| ttx | Some are marked done, some are just removed | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I haven't been consistent there. I meant to mark them done until I included them in a summary email and then delete them. | 15:02 |
| ttx | Given the tracker nature, I have sided with removing | 15:02 |
| zaneb | o/ | 15:02 |
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| ttx | i just removed the "Diversity tracking" item since all tasks have been completed | 15:02 |
| dhellmann | maybe as each of us removes an item, we can add a note somewhere at the top to be included in the next summary | 15:02 |
| pabelanger | o/ | 15:03 |
| dhellmann | having everyone help with those updates would save me a good bit of effort | 15:03 |
| ttx | yeah, we should ping the summary writer so that can be mentioned | 15:03 |
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| dhellmann | or we could send separate emails | 15:03 |
| dhellmann | we did say we were going to do "status updates" on each initiative | 15:04 |
| smcginnis | Should we add a "summary queue" section to there and move completed things to that. Then that gets cleared out once they actually make it to an update. | 15:04 |
| * cdent has to step out | 15:04 | |
| cdent | back in a few minutes, need to retrieve sarah | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : that works | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | how do folks feel about using that wiki page for tracking this stuff in general? | 15:06 |
| zaneb | just had a chat with the public cloud WG folks about trying to get more feedback to the Adjutant team http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-publiccloud/%23openstack-publiccloud.2018-07-19.log.html#t2018-07-19T14:56:03 | 15:06 |
| cmurphy | dhellmann: I think https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Technical_Committee_Tracker#Scheduling_PTL_.26_TC_elections_for_Stein is done but I don't really feel like it's worth a status email (I didn't actually have to do anything) | 15:06 |
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| dhellmann | cmurphy : did the elections team actually approve that patch to schedule the election? I may have missed that... | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | Only one +2 so far I believe. | 15:07 |
| cmurphy | dhellmann: no I don't think it's approved yet but it's proposed at least | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | cmurphy : ok | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | I'll leave it up to you to decide how to define "done" there | 15:08 |
| smcginnis | I think that should go soon since self nomination needs to start next week IIRC. | 15:08 |
| cmurphy | ok | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | maybe we need to nudge them to keep it moving? | 15:08 |
| EmilienM | o/ | 15:09 |
| smcginnis | diablo_rojo_phon: <nudge | 15:09 |
| cmurphy | persia: ping | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | heh | 15:09 |
| cmurphy | dhellmann: I'll continue to follow up, seems it's not "done" yet | 15:09 |
| * ttx will salvage his deletion and move it down | 15:09 | |
| dhellmann | cmurphy : ok, thank you | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | ttx: also thanks :-) | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | zaneb : I'll read that log, but were they generally receptive/interested? | 15:10 |
| persia | Are we talking about 582109, or did I miss something? | 15:11 |
| cmurphy | persia: yes 582109 | 15:12 |
| ttx | dhellmann: check to see if that's what you had in mind https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Technical_Committee_Tracker | 15:12 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: don't think there were actually enough people there to answer that, but I think they'll be very helpful in getting the message out to the people we need to be interested | 15:12 |
| persia | Ah, good. I always fear I miss things on travel. | 15:12 |
| smcginnis | fungi is on vacation and tonyb is excluding himself since he would have a conflict, so I think diablo_rojo_phon is probably the one that will need to get that going. | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | ttx: wfm. if you want to add any notes to help with creating the summary that would be good, too, but this looks fine. | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | zaneb : ok, that's a good start | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : perhaps if we invoke diablo_rojo_phon one more time the magic will work | 15:13 |
| smcginnis | It worked for beetlejuice. ;) | 15:15 |
| dhellmann | 3 *is* a magic number | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | does anyone have any questions or concerns about the vice chair proposal I posted this morning? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/583947/ | 15:16 |
| smcginnis | Does it need to be that formalized? | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | I see one point about wording from TheJulia. I can address that as a follow-up | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : I went back and forth on that, but since one of the responsibilities is being the point of contact with the board, I thought it would be good to be clear. | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | OK, fair enough. | 15:17 |
| TheJulia | I simply wanted to raise it since the associated term was implied | 15:17 |
| ttx | diablo_rojo_phon is in PTO, so probably not | 15:17 |
| dhellmann | TheJulia : yep, I think your point is valid | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ah. we may need to find another election official to help, then. | 15:18 |
| persia | Given that we want to start next week, that's an awkward time to not have enough approvers. | 15:18 |
| smcginnis | persia: Maybe you need to just push that one through. | 15:18 |
| smcginnis | At least there have been a couple +1 votes on it as well. | 15:18 |
| smcginnis | Unless someone wants to track down Tristan. | 15:19 |
| persia | smcginnis: I'll try to catch diablo_rojo later in the day (it's early for folk in negative timezones), and maybe do that if I have no success. fungi has also been demonstrating limited skills at disconnected holiday :) | 15:19 |
| smcginnis | persia: Did you see ttx's comment above - she's on holiday as well. | 15:20 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I would prefer that we not rely on a culture of people being bad at disconnecting | 15:20 |
| persia | smcginnis: Yes. I take that as "not actually working" and "definitely not getting up at dawn", but I'm less certain about "forcing oneself to stay off comms" :) | 15:20 |
| dhellmann | persia: are you prepared to actually run (or at least start) the election? you seem to be the only official present to do so... | 15:21 |
| dhellmann | present and not recused, I should say | 15:21 |
| persia | dhellmann: I think that's on us officials. We should probably be better at scheduling the scheduling of elections, so that we don't end up at this point. I'll bring that up when we next have more interactive meetings. | 15:21 |
| dhellmann | I would offer to help, but I'm OOO next week as well | 15:22 |
| persia | dhellmann: I think so. It would be the first one I kicked off, so I have to check the docs, but I believe that it involves sending a couple of emails: likely one Friday and definitely one early next week. | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | ok, good | 15:23 |
| cmurphy | thanks persia | 15:23 |
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| dhellmann | yes, thank you | 15:23 |
| persia | My main concern is confirming with others that at least one other person is available to double-check the rolls before we close the election. Depending on how disconnected folk are and/or how long holidays last, I may need help to actually certify the election. | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | I would have to check the election schedule, but I expect we'll have more folks around by the time we need to do that | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | when would we need to do that? | 15:24 |
| persia | Before the end of the month. | 15:25 |
| persia | Best practice is to get it done by mid-next week. | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | oh, that soon | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | perhaps we can get another TC member to volunteer then? | 15:25 |
| persia | Yes. Nominations start Tuesday (or should start Tuesday, if we want to do things on the regular schedule) | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | someone who won't be running, or expects to run uncontested? | 15:26 |
| persia | This is just for PTL. Also, we don't prefer the uncontested as officials (hence the recusion) | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | I was reading "close" as something happening later | 15:26 |
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| persia | "close the election" meaning confirm to the voting system the set of people who may vote, etc. | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | so if we need another person to help, we need to recruit someone. I was proposing we try recruiting from among tc-members as an interested body of people | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | and by "uncontested" I meant tonyb, but I respect the recusal if that's the way you prefer to do it | 15:27 |
| persia | That makes sense. I feel there is time for folk to think, and a good chance that we can know if help is actually required for Monday office hours. | 15:28 |
| smcginnis | Looks like I may be running again, so I can help as a non-core set of eyes, but better to have someone else. | 15:28 |
| dhellmann | persia : ok, it sounds like you have it in hand so I'll leave it to you. let us know if you need a backup, though. | 15:29 |
| persia | I certainly shall. Thank you for the offer of support. | 15:29 |
| dtroyer | is this PTL or TC election up first? | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer : PTL | 15:29 |
| persia | PTL | 15:30 |
| dtroyer | ok… I would be available to step in for the TC if needed, still planning to run as PTL again... | 15:30 |
| ttx | I would volunteer,m except I'm also off next week. | 15:30 |
| cmurphy | I could help on Monday or Tuesday of next week, I'm also leaving mid week | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | persia : in that opening email we should probably make sure that it's clear to folks that the next cycle is going to be a bit longer than usual to let us sync back up with summits at the end of the cycle | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | other than that it should be business as usual | 15:32 |
| persia | dhellmann: I'll play with wording a bit, although in the absence of review, I am a bit uncomfortable deviating from template too far. | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | persia : ok | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | I don't think we have an official schedule approved yet, do we smcginnis ? | 15:33 |
| persia | cmurphy: In the event that I remain the only available official Monday, I would definitely appreciate someone else able to calculate voter rolls. | 15:33 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: Stein release schedule? | 15:34 |
| dhellmann | yes | 15:34 |
| cmurphy | persia: okay I'll be available | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | No, not yet. I have the proposed one up there we should finalize, but I thought ttx still had some background work to do. | 15:34 |
| cmurphy | persia: I'm sure you can teach me exactly what that entails | 15:34 |
| dhellmann | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/575794/ is the proposal | 15:34 |
| persia | cmurphy: Thanks. | 15:35 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Do you have a feel for whether this is going to be what we end up with or not? ^^ | 15:35 |
| ttx | dhellmann: regarding https://review.openstack.org/#/c/578070/ would you have an example of how to do a redirect ? | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | ttx: yes, let me find you those instructions | 15:35 |
| ttx | smcginnis: let me check real quick | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | ttx: https://docs.openstack.org/doc-contrib-guide/redirects.html | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | ttx, smcginnis : if we don't have an official schedule, we can at least point to the rough proposal | 15:36 |
| persia | My feeling is that most folk who might be nominated for PTL are not in a position where they must cease being PTL on a specific date (or if they are, that date is probably not tied firmly to the release schedule and may not yet be known). | 15:38 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, as long as we don't expect it to be too much different then that's probably good enough. | 15:38 |
| TheJulia | I concur with persia | 15:39 |
| persia | Simply reminding folk that the term of service is a bit longer is probably sufficient. If the TC feels strongly, I'm happy to reference a review that folk should watch to get dates, but less happy pointing directly at a draft schedule object. | 15:39 |
| smcginnis | persia: That makes sense to me. | 15:40 |
| dhellmann | my main concern is someone signing up thinking there will be a PTG in February when they could/would stop when it will really be 2 months later; that's a big relative difference | 15:40 |
| dhellmann | but yes, I agree, the main point was to mention that the term will be a bit longer, just like for ocata we made clear that the term was a bit shorter | 15:40 |
| ttx | smcginnis: I think we are clear. Summit+PTG in Denver is now a 99.9% chance and will stay that way until all details are worked out which should take a bit | 15:40 |
| dhellmann | over communication ftw | 15:41 |
| cdent | ftw | 15:41 |
| ttx | smcginnis: so feel free to communicate more | 15:41 |
| persia | dhellmann: Would your concern be covered by "This term is expected to be slightly longer, as the release cycle is expected to adjust to match the Summit schedule"? | 15:42 |
| dhellmann | persia : yes, that wording would cover it | 15:42 |
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| dhellmann | if anyone has questions about what "slightly longer" means we can address that separately | 15:42 |
| persia | Excellent. One of my sources of joy is finding appropriate levels of vague. | 15:42 |
| dhellmann | ++ | 15:43 |
| zaneb | lol | 15:44 |
| smcginnis | :) | 15:44 |
| * ttx tries some whereto voodoo | 15:44 | |
| cdent | have people seen this: https://nadiaeghbal.com/project-health | 15:45 |
| smcginnis | queues to read... | 15:45 |
| cdent | it has a few interesting strategies/models and some useful illustrations and references | 15:47 |
| cdent | but it doesn't quite nail it (and acknowledges that) | 15:47 |
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| TheJulia | Interesting... | 15:50 |
| jroll | I may have missed it - is there an email announcement about merging PTG + summit back together? | 15:53 |
| cdent | jroll: you mean you haven't just assimilated that from the air? | 15:55 |
| cdent | :D :( | 15:55 |
| jroll | cdent: I have assimilated it from the air, but the air is not something I can link in slack for management :) | 15:55 |
| cdent | exactly! | 15:55 |
| cdent | I was making snark | 15:55 |
| jroll | I know :P | 15:56 |
| * jroll /giphy the winds are telling me | 15:56 | |
| TheJulia | I feel like there was hint to it from the notes sent out from the leadership meeting, but an official "this is going to happen" was pending information to finalize the decision. | 15:57 |
| pabelanger | I only know because of TC meeting, not sure if anything else was made public | 15:57 |
| jroll | ok, I didn't miss it then | 15:57 |
| jroll | thanks. | 15:57 |
| pabelanger | (TC / board meeting @ summit) | 15:57 |
| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Evolve project setup into a tech guidance chapter https://review.openstack.org/578070 | 16:01 |
| smcginnis | ttx: That's a good point above. Can we get some kind of official statement sent out letting folks know that the summit and PTG are more than likely merging back together? | 16:02 |
| smcginnis | Unless folks have been following along closely, that may come as a surprise to some. | 16:02 |
| ttx | yes, let me see how that can be done first | 16:03 |
| smcginnis | I could also just announce that if/when we approve the longer release cycle, but I would be afraid it wouldn't be as visible. | 16:03 |
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| TheJulia | I suspect it may not be able to be formally announced if due diligence and related negotiations are not yet complete. We might just have to use tentative language or state that it is expected, but not finalized, or something along those lines. | 16:05 |
| pabelanger | +1 | 16:05 |
| smcginnis | As persia said - the appropriate level of vague. ;) | 16:05 |
| TheJulia | ++ | 16:07 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/project-team-guide master: Update documentation https://review.openstack.org/583476 | 16:40 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: clarify wording of length of term for vice chair https://review.openstack.org/584047 | 17:56 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/project-team-guide master: Evolve project setup into a tech guidance chapter https://review.openstack.org/578070 | 18:03 |
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| dhellmann | cdent : that's an interesting article; thanks. | 19:19 |
| dhellmann | I'm not sure how to account for feature-complete projects under that model. I have the sense that "health" is relative to the phase of its lifecycle a project is in. | 19:21 |
| cdent | exactly | 19:21 |
| cdent | that was one of my main questions | 19:21 |
| cdent | I suppose one metric might be issue responsiveness | 19:21 |
| smcginnis | I was thinking about that too. Lifecycle and "code complete" state aren't really addressed. | 19:21 |
| cdent | so not the number of issues | 19:21 |
| smcginnis | cdent: That's a good aspect. | 19:21 |
| cdent | but the rate at which any new issue gets some kind of response | 19:21 |
| dhellmann | I see now in the conclusion she mentions this issue, too | 19:22 |
| dhellmann | perhaps some sort of comparison of the rate of bugs opened vs. closed would do it | 19:22 |
| dhellmann | which I guess is what you mean by "responsiveness" | 19:22 |
| dhellmann | although a project with 0 issues may also have 0 users; or it may just be simple, solid, code | 19:23 |
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| cdent | dhellmann: yeah, that's why I'm wondering if there is a snazzy math way to encapsulate that in one equation: if there are 0 bugs then responsiveness is infinitely good | 19:27 |
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| * fungi will take a look at the ptl election changes | 21:28 | |
| fungi | (limited skills at disconnected holiday indeed) | 21:28 |
| smcginnis | fungi: I think it was covered. | 21:38 |
| tonyb | Alternastely on the topic of elections, if we convert Stable into a SIG then we don't need to hold elections ans I can help out | 21:42 |
| tonyb | we've talked befoer about making it a SIG it just hasn't been high on the list | 21:42 |
| tonyb | and I don | 21:42 |
| tonyb | t want to fast track it and bypass discussion | 21:42 |
| smcginnis | tonyb: That's a good point (and idea). | 21:43 |
| * tonyb will leave it to the TC, but I'm supportive of the idea. I am aware that dhellmann is traveling (what's with it with y'all traveling) | 21:44 | |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: change format of check_review_status.py output https://review.openstack.org/584123 | 21:44 |
| dhellmann | tonyb : I think having it be a sig makes some sense but I haven't given it much thought. I support the idea if the contributors do, though | 21:45 |
| fungi | as for "feature complete" projects, an interesting dynamic is when a project's original authors feel it has met its intended scope but users are regularly cropping up wanting to expand its scope and add new features | 21:48 |
| fungi | do you hand over the reigns at risk the tool suddenly morphs and drops old features the maintainers wanted preserved? tell those users to fork or start a competing/complimentary tool? something else? | 21:50 |
| fungi | s/reigns/reins/ | 21:50 |
| fungi | tonyb: from an election official standpoint, i'll say not needing to run special rolls filtered by stable branch commits would certainly simplify things | 21:54 |
| tonyb | fungi: Yes it would. | 21:55 |
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| smcginnis | tonyb: Might be worth proposing it as a sig and see what kind of feedback we get on the review. | 22:18 |
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| tonyb | smcginnis: Okay I'll do that hopefully today | 22:51 |
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