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| cdent | tc-members and others, who is here today? | 09:00 |
|---|---|---|
| cdent | i left a comment on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/567944/ about something I think we should talk about (presumably at the ptg) | 09:01 |
| cmurphy | hiya | 09:01 |
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| cdent | mornin' cmurphy | 09:15 |
| cmurphy | morning cdent | 09:16 |
| cdent | this time slot is no longer buzzing | 09:16 |
| * cmurphy hums | 09:17 | |
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| * TheJulia tries to wake up | 12:03 | |
| cdent | good luck with that TheJulia. I've been up >6 hours and not yet awake | 12:04 |
| TheJulia | :( | 12:04 |
| * smcginnis sips his espresso | 12:06 | |
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| smcginnis | cdent: I share your feelings related to your comments on that review. I still think we are missing some kind of rubric or more explicit guide for evaluating new projects. | 12:08 |
| cdent | smcginnis: it _may_ be that the balance between those things is right, but it often feels we are working at cross purposes | 12:08 |
| cdent | like: a compromise between enabling success and rewarding success does neither | 12:09 |
| smcginnis | cdent: Just in general I still don't like how every new project review is so subjective. | 12:09 |
| smcginnis | That may be due to some of the compromises we've made. Not sure. | 12:09 |
| cdent | I don't really feel like subjective is the problem. The process is subjective, that's why we have humans doing it. What feels more like a problem is that the goals are not clear. | 12:10 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, maybe subjective isn't the right word. | 12:11 |
| cdent | what we don't have it agreement about what we are supposed to be achieving. | 12:15 |
| cdent | I think if we could get, for example, fungi and cmurphy to state their positions on what official is supposed to mean and achieve we might be able to distill things out a bit | 12:15 |
| cdent | I continue to waffle endlessly and usually end up on "they seem nice" | 12:16 |
| cmurphy | i'm firmly on the side of wanting to enable success rather than rewarding success | 12:27 |
| cmurphy | I was thinking about something you said, cdent, about how the foundation is providing all this support for other not-openstack projects, which are technically still incubating | 12:27 |
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| cmurphy | openstack should be providing support for projects we believe in, not necessarily projects that have already achieved success | 12:28 |
| cmurphy | those projects don't need us anyway | 12:28 |
| * cmurphy -> meeting | 12:28 | |
| cdent | I sometimes feel that way. And then sometimes think that violates some principles of opensource. | 12:28 |
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| mriedem | smcginnis: i realize i forgot about the stein release goal for the upgrade check CLI | 13:12 |
| mriedem | probably won't happen from me this week | 13:13 |
| mriedem | if you want to draft something i can review it | 13:13 |
| fungi | cdent: i feel like the amendment in question is intended to provide guidance for people starting new projects for which they eventually intend to apply (so they can avoid mistakes we've seen in other projects) | 13:15 |
| fungi | perhaps that wasn't quite the right document to put it in, but it's one i expect will get in front of that audience fairly early | 13:16 |
| smcginnis | mriedem: OK, thanks. I was going to ask about that. I'll see if I can get something started. | 13:18 |
| fungi | my review comment and the one to which i was replying were entirely about warning/dissuading project teams against choices we've seen work out poorly, but my comment in particular pertained to the fact that in practice i haven't seen similar concerns convince a majority of the tc to reject such applications | 13:19 |
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| scas | at this point in openstack's hype cycle, guidance is only a good thing. "you don't know what you don't know" applies very much more so than it did a couple of years back during peak openstack hype | 13:27 |
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| zaneb | maybe part of the problem is that we only get one review of a project, so that ends up getting used for both enabling and rewarding success | 15:29 |
| zaneb | if we had something like a separate graduation process then we could use that for 'rewarding' success and only worry about enabling success in the new project review | 15:29 |
| mugsie | like incubation and integration ? | 15:30 |
| zaneb | I think the original idea was that tags would (a) do that; (b) in a more granular way than the old graduation review did | 15:30 |
| mugsie | there was some good things about the older process | 15:31 |
| zaneb | but tbh I don't feel like that has really worked out | 15:31 |
| cdent | tags are completely invisible to me as a developer. I'm unclear on their visibility to operators/deploiyers/packagers | 15:33 |
| zaneb | they used to be somewhat prominent in the project navigator, but the project navigator is currently quite badly broken (pending a new design AIUI) | 15:41 |
| persia | The problem with a separate "incubation" phase is that it generally expects a certain level of project maturity before projects can be accepted. This necessitates a project launching using other infrastructure or confusion between "hosted by" and "incubated at". | 15:42 |
| persia | Where a project happens to be launched by a small number of people with good out-of-band communications and a shared intent to land in openstack or fail, that works. Projects not sponsored by single companies rarely meet those criteria. | 15:43 |
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| cdent | zaneb: where do you feel we are on the tech vision stuff? I feel like we need to do some kind of consolidation or something? | 16:34 |
| openstackgerrit | Samuel Cassiba proposed openstack/governance master: Add openstack-chef project https://review.openstack.org/585473 | 16:35 |
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| zaneb | cdent: I feel like the discussion on the mailing list has helped clarify for me some of the things we need to cover | 16:49 |
| zaneb | still need to turn that into words though | 16:50 |
| cdent | yeah, the ML discussion and the etherpad diverged quite a bit (in a useful way) | 16:52 |
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| notmyname | who's running the berlin session selection? | 17:40 |
| smcginnis | notmyname: For the Forum? | 17:41 |
| notmyname | no | 17:41 |
| notmyname | the summit summit thing | 17:41 |
| smcginnis | There are different track chairs for each area that choose the sessions. | 17:42 |
| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Add Stein goal for upgrade checkers https://review.openstack.org/585491 | 17:44 |
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| mriedem | smcginnis: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/585491/ is a great start, thanks | 21:20 |
| mriedem | much more than i expected | 21:20 |
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| smcginnis | mriedem: Thanks! At least we have something started to build off of. | 22:29 |
| smcginnis | mriedem: Good notes on there. | 22:30 |
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| fungi | notmyname: the more general answer is it's under the purview of the foundation's events coordinators (who delegate most of it to volunteer groups of chairs per track) | 22:42 |
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