Tuesday, 2018-07-24

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cdenttc-members and others, who is here today?09:00
cdenti left a comment on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/567944/ about something I think we should talk about (presumably at the ptg)09:01
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cdentmornin' cmurphy09:15
cmurphymorning cdent09:16
cdentthis time slot is no longer buzzing09:16
* cmurphy hums09:17
* cdent taps out a beat09:18
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* TheJulia tries to wake up12:03
cdentgood luck with that TheJulia. I've been up >6 hours and not yet awake12:04
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smcginniscdent: I share your feelings related to your comments on that review. I still think we are missing some kind of rubric or more explicit guide for evaluating new projects.12:08
cdentsmcginnis: it _may_ be that the balance between those things is right, but it often feels we are working at cross purposes12:08
cdentlike: a compromise between enabling success and rewarding success does neither12:09
smcginniscdent: Just in general I still don't like how every new project review is so subjective.12:09
smcginnisThat may be due to some of the compromises we've made. Not sure.12:09
cdentI don't really feel like subjective is the problem. The process is subjective, that's why we have humans doing it. What feels more like a problem is that the goals are not clear.12:10
smcginnisYeah, maybe subjective isn't the right word.12:11
cdentwhat we don't have it agreement about what we are supposed to be achieving.12:15
cdentI think if we could get, for example, fungi and cmurphy to state their positions on what official is supposed to mean and achieve we might be able to distill things out a bit12:15
cdentI continue to waffle endlessly and usually end up on "they seem nice"12:16
cmurphyi'm firmly on the side of wanting to enable success rather than rewarding success12:27
cmurphyI was thinking about something you said, cdent, about how the foundation is providing all this support for other not-openstack projects, which are technically still incubating12:27
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cmurphyopenstack should be providing support for projects we believe in, not necessarily projects that have already achieved success12:28
cmurphythose projects don't need us anyway12:28
* cmurphy -> meeting12:28
cdentI sometimes feel that way. And then sometimes think that violates some principles of opensource.12:28
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mriedemsmcginnis: i realize i forgot about the stein release goal for the upgrade check CLI13:12
mriedemprobably won't happen from me this week13:13
mriedemif you want to draft something i can review it13:13
fungicdent: i feel like the amendment in question is intended to provide guidance for people starting new projects for which they eventually intend to apply (so they can avoid mistakes we've seen in other projects)13:15
fungiperhaps that wasn't quite the right document to put it in, but it's one i expect will get in front of that audience fairly early13:16
smcginnismriedem: OK, thanks. I was going to ask about that. I'll see if I can get something started.13:18
fungimy review comment and the one to which i was replying were entirely about warning/dissuading project teams against choices we've seen work out poorly, but my comment in particular pertained to the fact that in practice i haven't seen similar concerns convince a majority of the tc to reject such applications13:19
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scasat this point in openstack's hype cycle, guidance is only a good thing. "you don't know what you don't know" applies very much more so than it did a couple of years back during peak openstack hype13:27
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zanebmaybe part of the problem is that we only get one review of a project, so that ends up getting used for both enabling and rewarding success15:29
zanebif we had something like a separate graduation process then we could use that for 'rewarding' success and only worry about enabling success in the new project review15:29
mugsielike incubation and integration ?15:30
zanebI think the original idea was that tags would (a) do that; (b) in a more granular way than the old graduation review did15:30
mugsiethere was some good things about the older process15:31
zanebbut tbh I don't feel like that has really worked out15:31
cdenttags are completely invisible to me as a developer. I'm unclear on their visibility to operators/deploiyers/packagers15:33
zanebthey used to be somewhat prominent in the project navigator, but the project navigator is currently quite badly broken (pending a new design AIUI)15:41
persiaThe problem with a separate "incubation" phase is that it generally expects a certain level of project maturity before projects can be accepted.  This necessitates a project launching using other infrastructure or confusion between "hosted by" and "incubated at".15:42
persiaWhere a project happens to be launched by a small number of people with good out-of-band communications and a shared intent to land in openstack or fail, that works.  Projects not sponsored by single companies rarely meet those criteria.15:43
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cdentzaneb: where do you feel we are on the tech vision stuff? I feel like we need to do some kind of consolidation or something?16:34
openstackgerritSamuel Cassiba proposed openstack/governance master: Add openstack-chef project  https://review.openstack.org/58547316:35
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zanebcdent: I feel like the discussion on the mailing list has helped clarify for me some of the things we need to cover16:49
zanebstill need to turn that into words though16:50
cdentyeah, the ML discussion and the etherpad diverged quite a bit (in a useful way)16:52
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notmynamewho's running the berlin session selection?17:40
smcginnisnotmyname: For the Forum?17:41
notmynamethe summit summit thing17:41
smcginnisThere are different track chairs for each area that choose the sessions.17:42
openstackgerritSean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Add Stein goal for upgrade checkers  https://review.openstack.org/58549117:44
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mriedemsmcginnis: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/585491/ is a great start, thanks21:20
mriedemmuch more than i expected21:20
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* cdent feeds EmilienM 21:40
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smcginnismriedem: Thanks! At least we have something started to build off of.22:29
smcginnismriedem: Good notes on there.22:30
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funginotmyname: the more general answer is it's under the purview of the foundation's events coordinators (who delegate most of it to volunteer groups of chairs per track)22:42

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