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| gmann | TC office hour time... | 01:06 |
|---|---|---|
| lbragstad | o/ | 01:09 |
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| adriant | Not sure if it really is something the TC needs to help decide, but I'd like some feedback on my choice of "operator-logic" as the service-type for Adjutant: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/633854/1 | 01:23 |
| adriant | Mostly because there was a lot of opinions about what Adjutant was, and I'd like to pick a service type that fits, but also doesn't step on any toes. | 01:23 |
| adriant | And since I doubt anyone is awake at this hour other that us kiwis, the review is the best place for comments. :) | 01:24 |
| lbragstad | adriant o/ | 01:25 |
| adriant | lbragstad: hello! | 01:26 |
| lbragstad | what made you decide on operator-logic? | 01:26 |
| adriant | mostly more generic than "business-logic" given that non-profits and such run OpenStack | 01:27 |
| adriant | and mostly because, I needed to pick something, and all the choices are kind of awful | 01:27 |
| lbragstad | well - i can see that being a hard service to have to pick a service type for | 01:28 |
| adriant | and I needed to start refactoring things that still looked for the service type 'registration' and was getting annoying at myself for not already picking a new type | 01:28 |
| adriant | also, congress has "operator-policy" so I thought that potentially "operator-logic" is a better fit | 01:29 |
| lbragstad | interesting | 01:29 |
| smcginnis | Decent logic at least. :) | 01:29 |
| adriant | that is the entirety of my thought process | 01:29 |
| lbragstad | adjutant effective manages common workflows for operators, right? | 01:30 |
| adriant | pretty much | 01:30 |
| lbragstad | effectively* | 01:30 |
| gmann | congress is more policy driven from oprator wise to automate the things. which make sense | 01:30 |
| gmann | adriant: and automate many of the task ? | 01:30 |
| lbragstad | "logic" seems a little nebulous, but i'm not sure i have a better suggestion | 01:31 |
| adriant | Adjutant basically is a service for exposing APIs that run business/operator workflows | 01:31 |
| adriant | the key part there being APIs (unlike Mistral) | 01:31 |
| adriant | lbragstad: that's sadly my problem. All the options are kind of bad: http://paste.openstack.org/show/744214/ | 01:32 |
| adriant | account-management could also maybe work, but potentially also sounds a bit wrong | 01:33 |
| adriant | I have no strong opinions, I just need to pick something better than the one we originally went with | 01:33 |
| lbragstad | because adjutant does more than just registration at this point? | 01:33 |
| adriant | yep | 01:34 |
| lbragstad | makes sense | 01:34 |
| gmann | if i am not wrong, adjutant is or will be limited to admin operations only right ? | 01:35 |
| adriant | gmann: sort of. The APIs aren't admin only. In fact some (like signup) are technically public and unauthenticated | 01:36 |
| lbragstad | iirc - end users can access adjutant | 01:36 |
| gmann | i see | 01:36 |
| adriant | right now it's based on role decorators, but there will be policy support later | 01:36 |
| adriant | the purpose is to make APIs that wrap workflow for normally admin only actions in safe non-admin ways | 01:36 |
| adriant | sort of | 01:36 |
| lbragstad | like allowing users to register without exposing POST /v3/users to everyone | 01:37 |
| adriant | or to update quotas for a project across all regions, and services | 01:37 |
| adriant | or wipe a project of all resources | 01:38 |
| lbragstad | aha | 01:38 |
| adriant | basically, taking a lot of scripts we all have, and making common APIs for a lot of those actions that may be multi-service | 01:38 |
| adriant | lbragstad: so in the community goal case, Adjutant would expose an API that underneath uses whatever end library we produce | 01:39 |
| adriant | or calls APIs in each service (and Keystone) | 01:39 |
| lbragstad | right | 01:39 |
| adriant | in theory all of those could be put under "account-management" of a sort, but part of why I dislike that term is that it's often also a sales/customer relationship based one | 01:40 |
| adriant | hence the more generic: "operator-logic" is my personal preference (at least over "account-management") | 01:40 |
| gmann | yeah, i like 'admin' in service type as it operate admin things mostly internally | 01:41 |
| * adriant has the worse service pick a type for | 01:41 | |
| zaneb | adriant: admin-automation? | 01:41 |
| * lbragstad thinks admin is overloaded ;) | 01:42 | |
| adriant | I could live with admin-automation, but also that ^ | 01:42 |
| zaneb | lbragstad: that's unfortunately very true | 01:42 |
| adriant | admin and administration like terms are overused and can be confusing because of that | 01:42 |
| lbragstad | by admins are we really talking about operators | 01:42 |
| gmann | or admin-workflow | 01:42 |
| adriant | workflow is mistral | 01:42 |
| adriant | and I'd want to avoid that term | 01:42 |
| adriant | "admin-task" was an option in my original list | 01:43 |
| adriant | but again, overloaded term | 01:43 |
| adriant | and i think both Mistral and Adjutant have internal abstractions called Tasks. | 01:43 |
| adriant | so yeah, this is basically a terminology minefield :P | 01:45 |
| lbragstad | to me - operator seems specific to the people running the deployment | 01:45 |
| gmann | adjutant also execute set of operations as Tasks? and in sequence order like mistral ? | 01:45 |
| zaneb | gmann: kinda sorta but not really | 01:46 |
| adriant | gmann: sort of. It exposes APIs that wrap around some admin actions, some of which use the internal task workflow systems | 01:46 |
| lbragstad | correct me if i'm wrong, but without adjutant these tasks would require someone to do them manually, right? | 01:46 |
| adriant | yes | 01:46 |
| adriant | signup is often a multi-step multi-system thing... Adjutant with custom plugins automates all of it except an approval step | 01:47 |
| zaneb | lbragstad: yeah, that's why I thought of putting 'automation' in there somewhere | 01:47 |
| lbragstad | yeah - that makes sense | 01:47 |
| zaneb | I think of it as automating some aspects of administration (particularly account management) that would otherwise be done by hand (or I guess by some non-standard custom code) | 01:48 |
| adriant | but... and this is why I lean towards logic... a lot of what those workflows and tasks are automating, is "business logic" | 01:48 |
| adriant | automation is mostly implied | 01:48 |
| adriant | but "operator-automation" is something that also works | 01:49 |
| lbragstad | that seems clear to me | 01:49 |
| lbragstad | er - clearer* | 01:49 |
| lbragstad | but my experience in picking service types is next to 0, so... :) | 01:50 |
| * zaneb can't stand the term "business logic" at the best of times ;) | 01:50 | |
| lbragstad | it's logic for the business zaneb | 01:51 |
| adriant | zaneb: sadly that's what Adjutant is ultimately for, automating business logic | 01:51 |
| adriant | as stupid as the term is | 01:51 |
| gmann | that looks much better but i am just wondering that should not be understood as covering deployer tasks too | 01:51 |
| adriant | yeah, that's the other worry | 01:51 |
| * adriant stands looking at all the mines around him | 01:52 | |
| adriant | zaneb: amusingly, I've heard people actually refer to their internal closed source Adjutant-like services as their "business logic service" | 01:55 |
| zaneb | lol, I'm reading about business logic on wiki: http://wiki.c2.com/?BusinessLogicDefinition | 01:56 |
| zaneb | 'We can identify "generally accepted" on this Wiki as being that with which everyone agrees, except you.' | 01:56 |
| lbragstad | just call it the money-service | 01:57 |
| gmann | just 'administration' might be good option too. or admin-*. . | 01:57 |
| gmann | heh | 01:57 |
| adriant | lbragstad, isn't that cloud-kitty? | 01:58 |
| gmann | that is 'rating ' | 01:58 |
| adriant | gmann: well, yes, but ultimately that ends up being the money-service | 01:59 |
| clarkb | "site-logic" maybe? | 02:01 |
| adriant | not much better than "operator-logic" since site tends to imply a given region/datacentre | 02:03 |
| clarkb | I think of it more in the sense of "web site" | 02:04 |
| clarkb | which is less region ro data center specific | 02:04 |
| adriant | Oh, I was gonna say that is implied website a bit too much, which doesn't really fit | 02:04 |
| adriant | since the APIs in Adjutant will be accessible without a GUI (although rarely). | 02:04 |
| clarkb | over http :) | 02:05 |
| adriant | I mean, you're not wrong, but normally a website is a visual thing :P | 02:06 |
| zaneb | process-automation? | 02:09 |
| zaneb | (as fun as this discussion is, I think the real answer is that it doesn't actually matter all that much) | 02:09 |
| adriant | hah, I think you're right ultimately | 02:10 |
| adriant | I'll see what people, if any say on that review, otherwise if that gets merged as is, I won't complain. | 02:16 |
| gmann | adriant: make sense. thanks for bringing it here. | 02:19 |
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| adriant | zaneb: what weird rabbit hole of a wiki business logic discussion did you link me down?! | 02:29 |
| zaneb | adriant: I feel like I need popcorn before finishing that wiki page | 02:30 |
| adriant | zaneb: I've bookmarked it for later reading. It was too dense for right now, but what a journey | 02:39 |
| zaneb | btw wikipedia suggests "domain logic" as a synonym for "business logic" but that would bring in some unfortunately overloading in our case too | 02:40 |
| adriant | https://thumbs.gfycat.com/NeatHandyAustraliancattledog-max-1mb.gif | 02:43 |
| adriant | not a very appropriate filename | 02:44 |
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| cdent | dhellmann: I suspect once you tell me I'll do an "oh yeah", but what's an "OIP"? | 16:41 |
| cdent | something infrastructure project? | 16:43 |
| smcginnis | It's the sound my dog made this morning when I let him out in the cold. | 16:48 |
| cdent | my indiana-based family members are making similar noises | 16:49 |
| dhellmann | open infrastructure project | 16:52 |
| dhellmann | the new top-level thing at the foundation | 16:52 |
| smcginnis | Ah, figured it might be something along those lines. | 16:53 |
| cdent | thanks. yeah, also figured something like that, but wanted to be sure | 16:54 |
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| aspiers | anyone know where the CfP for OpenInfra Days UK will be sent to? -discuss list? | 17:33 |
| mnaser | aspiers: openinfra days are organized by third parties and not the osf, so they might not even do it | 17:42 |
| aspiers | mnaser: ah OK thanks | 17:42 |
| mnaser | aspiers: they are blessed by the osf, so contacting them might get you in touch with the right person | 17:43 |
| aspiers | got it | 17:43 |
| cdent | aspiers: when is the event? I suppose since I'm in the uk ... | 17:45 |
| aspiers | cdent: wait, you *live* here? or just visiting? | 17:45 |
| aspiers | https://openinfradays.co.uk/ | 17:46 |
| cdent | I live in cornwall, have done for nearly 5 years, before that several years in berkshire | 17:46 |
| aspiers | no way! I had no idea | 17:46 |
| cdent | ah, thanks for the links. that's actually an almost possible time | 17:46 |
| aspiers | OK for some reason Twitter won't let me follow their account | 17:47 |
| aspiers | tried weeks ago, same problem today | 17:47 |
| aspiers | grrr | 17:47 |
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