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| zaneb | spotz: I think I'm saying it doesn't matter if it's a separate or unified group, because if anybody were going to volunteer to do any work they'd already have done so | 02:20 |
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| ttx | fungi: I tried dropping the outer link, and it did not result in making the individual badge links in the SVG clickable (at least on GitHub) | 11:31 |
| ttx | See https://github.com/ttx/glance/blob/master/README.rst | 11:31 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Collect Automation SIG repos https://review.opendev.org/708382 | 11:35 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Split OpenDev out of OpenStack Infra https://review.opendev.org/703134 | 11:36 |
| mnaser | uhm | 11:37 |
| mnaser | is that really just a project-update? cause to me it's a little bit more than that. | 11:37 |
| mnaser | i really dont think 4 votes is all it takes to split opendev out of openstack-infra (cc: tc-members) | 11:39 |
| ttx | mnaser: I agree it would have been nice to have more votes on this one, even if it technically *is* a deliverable list change, which only requires PTL signoff and lazy TC approval | 11:41 |
| mnaser | i agree on the technicality, but i don't think we should just treat things technically in that way. | 11:42 |
| mnaser | whats opendev exactly now? does it live under the foundation? is it outside the foundation? | 11:42 |
| ttx | I guess it's easy to revert if you'd file an objection | 11:42 |
| mnaser | there no governance proposed/existing afaik inside a repo or anything, as a infra donor i dont know where/who manages those resources | 11:43 |
| ttx | there is a governance sort-of proposal https://review.opendev.org/#/c/703488/ | 11:43 |
| ttx | the depends-on could have been the other way around | 11:44 |
| mnaser | where's this advisory board, do we have members listed already.. | 11:44 |
| ttx | but without standing objections on either reviews... moving forward was probably the right way to go | 11:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Mohammed Naser proposed openstack/governance master: Revert "Split OpenDev out of OpenStack Infra" https://review.opendev.org/710018 | 11:46 |
| ttx | we said we'd ask for forgiveness and revert liberally on those lazy-consensus ones, to avoid holding them forever | 11:46 |
| ttx | mnaser: Directly approved, per our house rules and charter. | 11:50 |
| ttx | (see my comment on https://review.opendev.org/#/c/710018/1 if you need more context) | 11:51 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: why didn't you vote negatively then? | 11:53 |
| evrardjp | ttx: thanks for doing so. | 11:53 |
| ttx | It's just hard to commit all of this transition atomically, so personally I was fine with merging this one first. | 11:55 |
| ttx | i.e. merging the chicken before nailing the details of the egg | 11:57 |
| evrardjp | yup exactly | 12:03 |
| evrardjp | and we had already an agreement that our voice will be heard | 12:04 |
| mnaser | i did vote negatively initially | 12:10 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Revert "Split OpenDev out of OpenStack Infra" https://review.opendev.org/710018 | 12:11 |
| mnaser | and usually when i chairing at least, once we got a revision, id wait for those who asked for things to be clarified/previously had a -1 if they're satisfied with the current state of the change before merging personally | 12:11 |
| mnaser | but lets not get bogged down with this and that | 12:12 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: you didn't. | 12:12 |
| evrardjp | We let a few days too | 12:13 |
| evrardjp | if you did, I would have been aware of. I thought it was just a convo and everything was clear now. | 12:13 |
| evrardjp | but yeah, let's ignore that. | 12:13 |
| openstackgerrit | Mohammed Naser proposed openstack/governance master: Revert "Revert "Split OpenDev out of OpenStack Infra"" https://review.opendev.org/710020 | 12:14 |
| mnaser | yeah overall the fact that "who is opendev" is still not answered and "we'll figure it out" seems a bit odd personally | 12:14 |
| mnaser | not to be a PITA but i think we should have that nailed down before we split things off | 12:14 |
| evrardjp | are you afraid of something specific, that should be raised? | 12:17 |
| mnaser | what is opendev, is it an openstack project, is it going to use all four opens like we have historically done, who's stepping up to run it, there's so many questions that if we don't answer, we'll just end up in a worse off situation | 12:19 |
| mnaser | i'm not against opendev, i think it is a good idea, but we need to make sure we're doing it for the right reasons | 12:19 |
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| spotz | zaneb TheJulia fungi - candidates do have to be AUC as it stands. We had 2 candidates who wanted to run but came back to us after the deadline. I kow I submitteed at lleast 1 person for AUC status who was not on the list I was given as an election official | 12:52 |
| mordred | mnaser: are you thinking we should also get opendev to be noted as an OSF pilot project (or something similar) so that it's got an official relationship with the OSF umbrella? (I think that's what we did with the zuul split out?) If so, I believe the OSF staff has the authority to just make pilot projects without board approval, so maybe we should poke staff? | 13:00 |
| mordred | mnaser: (also, I agree, everyone should feel solid on these answers - it's a big and important piece of our community) | 13:00 |
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| smcginnis | I suppose pilot project status (and presumably not long after, fully approved project) would at least make it clear that OpenDev is and will remain something under the OpenStack Foundation. And then it clearly places it as something that the other OSF projects could expect to work with. | 13:06 |
| fungi | spotz: osf bylaws state "1. Membership of User Committee. The User Committee will consist of five members. Beginning with the first election, all members selected to the User Committee shall be Individual Members. A member of the User Committee may cease to be an Individual Member during her or his term, but must be an Individual Member at the time of nomination." | 13:10 |
| fungi | https://www.openstack.org/legal/user-committee-member-policy/ | 13:10 |
| fungi | so nothing in there about requirements for who can hold a uc seat other than being an osf individual member (that's the same as for the tc, in fact) | 13:11 |
| spotz | fungi I'll have to look for it because part of our election official dutiees aree to make sure thee person has AUC status | 13:12 |
| fungi | spotz: if so, i can't find anywhere that's backed up in the osf bylaws | 13:13 |
| spotz | But yeeah I think in this round wee just needed a bit more time to fill the seats but merging had already been brought to us | 13:14 |
| fungi | i'm not sure the uc can decide to limit who is eligible to run for a seat beyond the requirements specified in the bylaws, as that would allow seated uc members to directly exclude rivals | 13:14 |
| fungi | same reason the tc can't | 13:14 |
| fungi | it's something we'll likely want input on | 13:15 |
| fungi | also i see a copy-paste error in 2(c) where it refers to "newly elected tc members" ;) | 13:15 |
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| spotz | I joined in the first election wheen it went to 5 from the 3 appointed members mmebers. So don't know aa whole lot of the original formation history. We could track down Melvin or Edgar though | 13:18 |
| smcginnis | It was likley the policy that was decided on, just not something that was absolutely required in the bylaws. | 13:20 |
| fungi | spotz: well, that user committee member policy was added the same time the uc started being an elected body, if memory serves, so you've been on the uc roughly as long as it's been written | 13:22 |
| fungi | though i suppose not for the discussions which led up to it | 13:23 |
| spotz | smcginnis: Yeah I'm not sure, but the needing to be AUC was I told when I was an official before I was elected and it's part of the communicaation we send out so if not in the by-laaws it has to be somewhere else | 13:23 |
| fungi | the uc added that limitation in their charter: "All members selected to the UC shall be Individual Members and Active User Contributors (AUC) based on the definition in the next section." https://governance.openstack.org/uc/reference/charter.html#user-committee-members | 13:25 |
| spotz | Yeah fungi and his search skills:) | 13:25 |
| fungi | which means it's also possible for the uc (whatever that winds up being defined as) to change that charter | 13:25 |
| spotz | We haad considered reducing down to 3 candidaates but tabled that with the mergeer tlaks | 13:26 |
| spotz | err 3 memberrs | 13:28 |
| fungi | reducing it to 3 members would necessitate a bylaws change though | 13:28 |
| spotz | Which were aalreaady being discussed for aa merrger | 13:29 |
| fungi | as one of the options, yep | 13:30 |
| ttx | mnaser, evrardjp: a change of that magnitude could have benefited from a "resolution", in addition to the repo list adjustment. | 13:34 |
| fungi | spotz: i think it's only appendix 10 which would have to be adjusted to reduce the number of uc seats, but article ix doesn't appear to have a carve-out for simple votes of the board in modifying that, unlike for the technical committee member policy (appendix 4), so unless the last paragraph of 9.2(d) applies (where it talks about insubstantial changes of member policies) reducing the size of the uc | 13:36 |
| fungi | may require a full vote of the foundation membership | 13:36 |
| mordred | fungi, ttx: you're both smart ... I need to publish artifacts from the ansible-openstack-sig to galaxy.ansible.com into the openstack namespace on galaxy. publishing to galaxy requires github credentials. (publishing to that namespace is currently squatted on with my personal account) ... what do we think the appropriate ownership and management of such credentials should be? | 13:37 |
| fungi | mordred: does the namespace have to match the name of a github org used for credentialing? or are they independent namespaces? | 13:39 |
| mordred | fungi: uh. that's a _really_ good question. let me go find out | 13:40 |
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| fungi | mordred: though one way to look at it is that the ansible-openstack-sig is not part of openstack, so its output published on galaxy shouldn't masquerade as a product of the openstack community | 13:43 |
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| clarkb | mnaser: it would be extremely helpful to have that feedback in review | 13:48 |
| clarkb | I'm out today, but we do review specifically to avoid these issues | 13:49 |
| clarkb | but as far as I can see there was no followup on my response? | 13:49 |
| clarkb | I also think if we try to define everything on day -1 we'll never get this done | 13:51 |
| mordred | fungi: so - I hope that's not how we look at it, because it's only a sig because the openstack community decided that it was inappropriate for openstack to publish GPL content - which is what this content is due to its lineage having come from the ansible repo originally but has now been split out and control over the content has been moved to the openstack community | 13:53 |
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| mordred | for us to decide that collectively we cannot publish content to the openstack namespace on galaxy would be a very unfortunate reading of the situation | 13:53 |
| fungi | mordred: oh, this is a sig in openstack, not a sig in ansible? i misunderstood | 13:54 |
| mordred | yes | 13:54 |
| mordred | sorry :) | 13:54 |
| fungi | i thought it was like the kubernetes openstack sig | 13:54 |
| mordred | nope, this is an openstack sig we're using to manage the ansible modules used for talking to openstack post divestiture of such modules by the ansible community | 13:55 |
| mordred | (although to be clear, the primary humans involved have always also been openstack community members :) ) | 13:56 |
| evrardjp | I didn't realise you were considering yourself human | 13:56 |
| fungi | so you have an openstack sig producing some output which you want to publish in an openstack namespace on galaxy. that seems reasonable, though knowing the credential requirements better would help work out what the access ought to be | 13:56 |
| mordred | fungi: anywho - the namespace does not have to match the name of a github org used for credentialing | 13:56 |
| mordred | HOWEVER - there is a tie between the galaxy namespace and the openstack namespace | 13:56 |
| evrardjp | what's the hold up on putting all of this inside openstack/ ? | 13:57 |
| mordred | between the galaxy openstack namespace and the github openstack organization that is | 13:57 |
| evrardjp | (and make it part of openstack) | 13:57 |
| mordred | evrardjp: the GPL | 13:57 |
| evrardjp | let me rephrase this | 13:58 |
| evrardjp | is it thinkable of having an exception, to make this happen ? | 13:58 |
| mordred | oh - I don't think there's an issue with the publication ... | 13:58 |
| mordred | the main quesiton is - what account should we use to publish to the openstack/ namespace on galaxy | 13:59 |
| mordred | right now the answer is "emonty" - which I'm 100% certain is incorrect | 13:59 |
| evrardjp | :) | 13:59 |
| mordred | then - once we decide what acount, assuming it's not an account that is already owned and managed by openstack-infra, how do we manage the credentials | 13:59 |
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| evrardjp | that sounds like a generic question for any artifact we publish outside our control | 14:01 |
| mordred | well ... | 14:02 |
| fungi | mordred: i'm not on the tc, but my suggestion would be for the tc to recognize the openstack-ansible-sig's authority over the openstack namespace in ansible galaxy and let them work out/share the necessary publication credentials with one another (with a primary goal of setting them as zuul secrets) | 14:02 |
| mordred | fungi: nod | 14:02 |
| fungi | them being the sig | 14:02 |
| mordred | yeah. I may also have not been clear that this is about having Zuul publish the content | 14:02 |
| mordred | not about having humans do so | 14:03 |
| evrardjp | I am puzzled, what fungi said sounded very ... obvious. so I must be missing something. | 14:03 |
| mordred | evrardjp: traditionally openstack-infra takes care of managing credentials used to publish things to openstack namespaces in places - and has a long establish process for managing access to such credentials. but it's not clear to me that this falls into the bucket of that management, and without that, I'm not sure what the answer is | 14:04 |
| mordred | like - the infra team manages the pypi credentials that are used to upload things to pypi so that invidual teams do not have to worry about that | 14:05 |
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| mordred | fungi: as I say that, I'm not 100% sure why this isn't an infra-managed secret | 14:06 |
| fungi | pypi does not have namespaces though | 14:06 |
| mordred | (and I mean that specifically as infra as opposed to opendev assuming such a split exists) | 14:07 |
| fungi | and the infra team is not managing, for example, the credentials used to mirror git refs into the airship namespace on github, or the kolla namespace on dockerhub, or what have you | 14:07 |
| mordred | fungi: right. becuase those aren't openstack projects, which drives the opendev split ... but this is an _openstack_ thing, not an non-openstack opendev thing | 14:08 |
| mordred | oh - you said kllla | 14:08 |
| mordred | kolla | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | mordred: fungi: maybe a change can be introduced in governance-sigs/sigs.yaml to add in Ansible SIG's scope that it handles the publication on galaxy.ansible.com, and we have a resolution in governance explaining this ? | 14:09 |
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| mordred | yeah - we can do that | 14:09 |
| fungi | some of that kolla namespace situation is also driven by the penultimate bullet (#6) at https://governance.openstack.org/tc/resolutions/20170530-binary-artifacts.html#guidelines | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | I can tackle it, but it sounds like the best place, and the easiest to track | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | I will propose the patches real quick | 14:10 |
| fungi | er, and more so bullet #5: We do not want the artifacts to be seen as owned by the community at large, if only a few people can actually address issues. For this reason, the metadata for binary artifacts must not say or imply that they are produced by “the OpenStack community.” Specific team names should be used instead. | 14:10 |
| mordred | evrardjp: cool, thanks | 14:10 |
| fungi | though i suppose ansible roles don't have compiled binary representations independent from their source, so that resolution is probably less applicable | 14:11 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance-sigs master: Clarify scope to explain ownership of openstack ns in galaxy https://review.opendev.org/710045 | 14:12 |
| mordred | evrardjp: I think that makes perfect sense | 14:22 |
| mordred | evrardjp: thank you | 14:23 |
| evrardjp | it's just the first part, I will make sure this is acknowledged also in governance using a resolution | 14:23 |
| mordred | evrardjp: cool. then I think what the sig will do as a followup is request that the openstack-infra team be the caretakers of the credentials used to do the uploading, since it's an unambiguous team/upload location and the infra team is good at that | 14:26 |
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| fungi | (openstack-infra independently from opendev, once that comes to pass) | 14:28 |
| mordred | yah. | 14:28 |
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| evrardjp | yeah I think who will hold the credentials don't matter, as we explain who is in charge/who owns those :) | 14:30 |
| evrardjp | well it does matter, but you got my idea :D | 14:31 |
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| mordred | evrardjp: yeah. the TC doesn't specifically care about that part :) | 14:38 |
| fungi | maintenance of the credentials can be delegated by whoever is granted authority for them, sure | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | fungi: damn I wrote a text that was three sentences, and now you write a single sentence that is better in this chat. | 14:47 |
| fungi | i've come to learn that writing is my primary job these days | 14:47 |
| evrardjp | You'll be glad to know that I wasn't too far off ! | 14:49 |
| evrardjp | haha | 14:49 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Handling the OpenStack name in external services https://review.opendev.org/710048 | 14:49 |
| mnaser | Id like to chime in eventually btw | 14:53 |
| mnaser | I’m just in the midst of flying and transferring through airport | 14:54 |
| mnaser | So I will try and reply soon sorry. | 14:54 |
| * mnaser is in a gate | 14:54 | |
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| njohnston | mnaser: Do you have to write +2+W on your boarding pass before they will let you on? | 15:40 |
| zaneb | spotz: if we have volunteers for the UC (albeit after the deadline) then I think we should let them join. the discussion AIUI is premised on the fact that there were no volunteers | 15:44 |
| spotz | zaneb: I agree and offered to stay if needed as well. I didn't re-run to free up aa leadership spot with me on the board. It really cmes down in my mind at least making sure everyone is represented | 15:48 |
| ttx | zaneb: I would not say the lack of volunteers is the premise. The real premise is simplifying our community management and further removing barriers between users and code contributors | 15:52 |
| zaneb | there's something to be said for changing the bylaws to make OpenStack less special, and more like other open infra projects with a single leadership body. that would be simpler. | 15:54 |
| zaneb | but changing the bylaws is not simple :( | 15:54 |
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| fungi | the other open infrastructure projects don't all have single leadership bodies either | 15:59 |
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| zaneb | true. at least they get to decide for themselves though :) | 16:00 |
| fungi | airship has a "technical committee" and a "working committee" https://github.com/airshipit/governance#committees | 16:00 |
| fungi | well, they get to write up what they want and then ask the osf board of directors to approve it, whereas openstack's tc and uc actually get to write their charters and then tell the osf board what those are | 16:02 |
| fungi | making openstack more like the other projects would mean giving that up, and giving the osf board of directors approval control over all changes to the tc and uc charters | 16:03 |
| ttx | yeah, it's really because openstack was "in" before the Foundation actually was. While other projects were "in" after the Foundation existed | 16:05 |
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| ttx | so the order of "adoption" was reversed in a way | 16:06 |
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| mnaser | njohnston: yep! | 17:01 |
| gmann | evrardjp: you mean March meeting in Subject... - http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-February/012844.html | 17:08 |
| evrardjp | gmann: oh shoot! | 17:11 |
| evrardjp | means I will have trouble finding it after the meeting :p | 17:11 |
| evrardjp | sorry for that. | 17:12 |
| gmann | :) | 17:14 |
| gmann | on UC merge, now i think doing Bylaw change to close the UC will be good long term solution than having same situation of no UC volunteer either in merged with TC or separate group. | 17:15 |
| gmann | how costly changing bylaw is now should be less costly than solving the current situation again and again. | 17:16 |
| fungi | but a big part of the question is what to do in the years between now and when that's done | 17:23 |
| spotz | And saaying the UC does nothing on the ML by the TC is NOT helping an OPS/Dev divide. While the TC is more in your face the UC often works with the OSF to help bring on new users, work with sharing user feedback and so on | 17:29 |
| gmann | spotz: its not ref to "current UC not doing anything", it was with new team with 'no duties' idea. | 17:31 |
| spotz | gmann: Not how it came across:( | 17:32 |
| fungi | the point is more that the uc only has responsibilities it has itself declared, so any reformulation of the uc can declare as few responsibilities as it wants | 17:34 |
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| mordred | fungi: wow. I just noticed that one can be removed from the TC for conviction of a felony | 17:37 |
| mordred | wait - that's just removing chair from the TC chair | 17:37 |
| evrardjp | yeah, sorry I didn't do that yet :p | 17:38 |
| evrardjp | I shouldn't joke about this. | 17:39 |
| evrardjp | sorry | 17:39 |
| smcginnis | Hah | 17:39 |
| fungi | mordred: i was about to say, i guess you don't know why i'm no longer on the tc ;) | 17:39 |
| mordred | fungi: hahaha | 17:40 |
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| ttx | spotz: yeah, i can easily see how that can be misinterpreted, especially if someone did not follow all that thread | 17:49 |
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| openstackgerrit | Hervé Beraud proposed openstack/ideas master: [WIP] voting procedure and decision making https://review.opendev.org/710107 | 18:06 |
| openstackgerrit | Hervé Beraud proposed openstack/ideas master: [WIP] voting procedure and decision making https://review.opendev.org/710107 | 18:09 |
| openstackgerrit | Hervé Beraud proposed openstack/ideas master: [WIP] voting procedure and decision making https://review.opendev.org/710107 | 18:09 |
| openstackgerrit | Hervé Beraud proposed openstack/ideas master: [WIP] voting procedure and decision making https://review.opendev.org/710107 | 18:12 |
| openstackgerrit | Hervé Beraud proposed openstack/ideas master: [WIP] voting procedure and decision making https://review.opendev.org/710107 | 18:14 |
| openstackgerrit | Hervé Beraud proposed openstack/ideas master: [WIP] voting procedure and decision making https://review.opendev.org/710107 | 18:16 |
| openstackgerrit | Kendall Nelson proposed openstack/election master: Set Victoria configuration https://review.opendev.org/708470 | 18:18 |
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| clarkb | mordred: my fishing license prominently states my non felon status | 21:20 |
| mordred | clarkb: wouldn't want them felons fishin | 21:21 |
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| fungi | indeed, make them buy fish from law-fearing fishermen and fisherwomen (fishpeople?) | 21:43 |
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