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| mnaser | hola | 02:14 |
|---|---|---|
| mnaser | so i dont remember but | 02:14 |
| mnaser | does the current roster of the tc figure out the appointments or the new roster-to-be? | 02:15 |
| gmann | i feel either one is ok as appointments is not TC preferred candidates but who ever volunteer. so either old tc or new tc reaching out to possible members is all fine. | 02:17 |
| fungi | the sitting tc at the time ptl elections conclude would normally do it | 02:21 |
| fungi | there are no ptl elections since they're all uncontested, but the nonexistent elections for them are scheduled to conclude in two weeks | 02:22 |
| fungi | also with the tc election scheduled to coincide with the ptl elections again, i would interpret that as the new tc decides on ptl appointments | 02:23 |
| cmurphy | does the current tc's term end with the end of the election or the end of the release cycle? | 02:24 |
| gmann | end of election | 02:24 |
| fungi | the election officials have also generally considered the wording of the resolution on leaderless programs to indicate that they have until the scheduled end of ptl elections to provide the list of leaderless teams to the tc | 02:24 |
| gmann | PTL has to be concluded after two weeks of election ? | 02:25 |
| fungi | the ptl elections were scheduled to coincide with the tc elections, like last time | 02:26 |
| gmann | fungi: election official to give list after nomination end or election end ? | 02:26 |
| fungi | gmann: it says "before the conclusion of the election" | 02:27 |
| gmann | because list would change after nomination period as election official does not allow nomination after deadline . | 02:27 |
| fungi | which have been taken to mean any time up to the end of the scheduled election | 02:27 |
| gmann | but does that consider gap of nomination and election start | 02:27 |
| gmann | nomination end and election start | 02:27 |
| fungi | yes, but election officials aren't required to do these things instantaneously either | 02:28 |
| gmann | i think tc start working on appointment from nomination end so that we have enough time as list is not going to change in any way | 02:29 |
| fungi | i'm also not an election official this time since i was originally planning to run for a return to the tc, so i can't speak for the current election officials and what timelines they want to be bound to | 02:29 |
| gmann | as nomination after nomination end falls under anointment only | 02:29 |
| fungi | in the past, ptl appointments for leaderless teams have occurred after elections concluded | 02:30 |
| fungi | this also provides ample time for people who meant to run for ptl to realize and reach out on their own before the tc needs to start hunting folks down | 02:31 |
| fungi | but as i said, i'm neither an election official nor up for election to the tc so feel free to redesign how any of this works, but i would encourage you to avoid making significant changes until after the new tc roster is finalized | 02:33 |
| gmann | fair enough. | 02:36 |
| gmann | but we do not have the old tc -> new tc phase where we need to hold the things. we should consider current tc keep working and whenever we haev new members in-progress things gets new vote consideration. | 02:38 |
| fungi | yes, but altering election processes during an election is not very nice to the election officials | 02:41 |
| gmann | sure, i am just saying to start working on something which we know we have to do. if election things stop that may be we can change but yes for next term things not in-progress elections. | 02:43 |
| fungi | being an election official is a stressful enough job even under optimal conditions | 02:43 |
| fungi | and you're suggesting changing deadlines on them | 02:43 |
| fungi | there is, of course, nothing stopping you from reaching out to teams you're concerned about or prospective ptl volunteers in advance of getting the formal list of leaderless teams from the election officials anyway | 03:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | Tobias Rydberg proposed openstack/election master: Adding Tobias Rydberg candidacy for TC https://review.opendev.org/716490 | 06:12 |
| openstackgerrit | Tetsuro Nakamura proposed openstack/election master: Adding Tetsuro Nakamura candidacy for Placement https://review.opendev.org/716494 | 06:30 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add openstack-tempest-skiplist under TripleO https://review.opendev.org/714030 | 07:53 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Handling the OpenStack name in external services https://review.opendev.org/710048 | 07:53 |
| openstackgerrit | Andrey Kurilin proposed openstack/election master: Add Andrey Kurilin candidacy for Rally PTL https://review.opendev.org/716525 | 08:19 |
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| ttx | Hi everyone! | 10:26 |
| ttx | Set up an etherpad for leaderless project teams, so that we can keep track | 10:26 |
| ttx | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/victoria-leaderless | 10:26 |
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| openstackgerrit | Michal Arbet proposed openstack/governance master: Add xstatic-* projects for vitrage-dashboard https://review.opendev.org/709211 | 12:23 |
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| mnaser | I think tobberydberg is an excellent candidate but it seems like they’ve sent an email to the ML but didn’t place a patch. Could we make an exception for a late addition? | 12:29 |
| mnaser | ttx: thanks, I started drafting up some ideas | 12:29 |
| tobberydberg | https://review.opendev.org/716490/ | 12:33 |
| tobberydberg | Thanks mnaser ... my patch "got delayed" (don't want to make excuses), but the email was sent yesterday :-) | 12:34 |
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| ttx | It's up to the election officials to accept post-deadline submissions... I don't think I can remember an exception to that rule though | 12:48 |
| ttx | As far as I welcome Tobias's candidacy, that would be a bad precedent to set | 12:49 |
| ttx | As much...* | 12:49 |
| mnaser | ttx: fair enough, i thought the fact that an email was sent out beforehand indicates just the process wasn't fully followed and there was an intention to run, but yeah, rules be rules :( | 12:58 |
| ttx | mnaser: maybe :) I'll let others decide what's the practical rule here | 13:00 |
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| ianychoi | Actually, there were bugs on mailing lists when Tobias shared an e-mail - it was shown after nomination period was over. If election officials might interpret this context, then I think a late patch seems feasible (note: it is just my opinion - needs to discuss with other election officials) | 13:09 |
| mnaser | ttx: i left my comments, thanks for starting the etherpad. i wonder if there's a way we can keep letting people get atc (or some other similar status) if they contribute to those "ecosystem" projects | 13:13 |
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| ttx | mnaser: I understand the intent... that said I like the bidirectional relationship (TC rules you, you elect the TC). I would rather encourage those ecosystem participants to regoup as a SIG and get ATCness through that | 13:37 |
| ttx | Like Adjutant people getting involved in the Public Cloud SIG, as an example | 13:38 |
| fungi | ianychoi: mailing list delays wouldn't cause delays in submitting gerrit changes though, would they? | 13:52 |
| mnaser | Yeah that makes sense ttx | 14:06 |
| fungi | also remember that any rules you add for who is in the electorate needs a way to be clearly automated or the tc will need to maintain them manually in extra-atcs type lists | 14:09 |
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| gmann | ttx: thanks for starting the etherpad | 15:22 |
| gmann | mnaser: tobberydberg +1. I see few infra issues on these election which i think we should relax. This is not political elections :) so relaxing the things is what i always support. It is just fine to accept the candidacy if we know they want to do and missed deadline for any reason. | 15:55 |
| gmann | but yeah it is election official decision. | 15:55 |
| gmann | ttx: left comment on etherpad. Updated the situation for tacker. NEC has added a new developer as 100% upstream who going to start contribution from V cycle. It is just we need to find PTL for V cycle. also discussing the PTL situation in NEC group. | 15:59 |
| gmann | added question for option 2 clarification also. | 16:09 |
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| ttx | Option 2 is not really an option for teams producing parts of the openstack release | 16:21 |
| ttx | Project teams are just teams with extra accountability rules due to the fact that they release software (like having a release liaison or a security liaison) | 16:22 |
| gmann | cool. good to mention that in etherpad also because i see few option 2 for such team | 16:23 |
| ttx | So if you produce parts that are released as part of OpenStack, you need to be a project team | 16:23 |
| ttx | yeah, I did sprinkle that over the etherpad | 16:23 |
| gmann | +1 | 16:23 |
| ttx | If SIGs produced released software they would basically need the same accountability (a PTL, or a set of essential liaisons), at which point they would be a project team | 16:24 |
| gmann | true | 16:24 |
| ttx | So if project teams are essential and a PTL can't be found (option 1), that really only leaves option 4 (experiment with set of liaisons). | 16:25 |
| ttx | I see only Oslo in that case though | 16:25 |
| gmann | and Tacker may be but if no PTL found. | 16:26 |
| ttx | others all have a volunteer already, or are not as essential (and therefore option 5 is an option) | 16:26 |
| gmann | i am thinking at least to go with option 1 first at least to check with previous PTL in case COVID-19 is something keeping them out of date ? | 16:27 |
| gmann | that does not harm ? just reaching out on personal email or something. | 16:28 |
| bnemec | \o/ we're essential | 16:30 |
| bnemec | Wait, does that mean we have to work through the pandemic. ;-) | 16:30 |
| gmann | if we know if someone is there/going to be to maintain that software then we should keep all door open for them to be in openstack. like option 4 can be good try. | 16:31 |
| ttx | bnemec: no, it just means you can't quit | 16:31 |
| ttx | oslo is the hotel california of openstack | 16:31 |
| spotz | hehe | 16:33 |
| bnemec | Heh | 16:33 |
| bnemec | I did discuss this with my manager earlier this week and I think he's okay with me continuing for now, but possibly transitioning to someone else partway through the cycle. | 16:34 |
| bnemec | Both of the people who had expressed interest are dealing with quarantine/ill family members right now. | 16:34 |
| spotz | Yeah it's an odd time and it probably affected people responding to the elections | 16:35 |
| gmann | ah, that's not good. hope them to recover soon. | 16:35 |
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| gmann | tc-members i think we need to consider this situation ^^ one example and allow some time for people to show up for leadership or maintaining team. | 16:37 |
| gmann | even if that require some exception in our charter or deadlines etc. | 16:37 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: ++ | 16:37 |
| njohnston | gmann: ++ | 16:38 |
| jungleboyj | What else can we do right now? | 16:38 |
| gmann | one way is to extend the time for leaderless project appointment and try option 1 with best possible effort. | 16:39 |
| mnaser | i used to be supportive of "option 1 with best effort" | 16:40 |
| mnaser | but i have unfortunately never seen it work out successfully for many of the projects that we end up appointing people to | 16:40 |
| mnaser | we wound up having to do the same thing again | 16:40 |
| fungi | as far as i know, there is no schedule or "deadline" for appointing a ptl | 16:40 |
| mnaser | (i understand, circumstances *are* really different this time) | 16:40 |
| fungi | so nothing to extend, in reality | 16:40 |
| fungi | it can take as long as it takes | 16:40 |
| gmann | yeah, i agree with that in past try. in case COVID-19 is reason. | 16:41 |
| ttx | bnemec: you could experiment with the "sets of liaisons" model, and just be the release liaison | 16:42 |
| ttx | like if you can find someone else to be the "security liaison" | 16:42 |
| gmann | fungi: yeah, i also cannot find any timeline for that in charter or resolution which is good. | 16:44 |
| bnemec | We already have a release liaison, and we have the oslo-coresec team to handle security issues (it's even populated by active contributors now! :-). | 16:44 |
| fungi | bnemec: yay! | 16:45 |
| bnemec | Frankly, I haven't been doing all that much as PTL lately anyway. Mostly answering questions or trying to direct them to the right person. | 16:45 |
| bnemec | Running meetings, I guess. | 16:45 |
| spotz | vital things bnemec | 16:45 |
| fungi | that's all i ever did as a ptl ;) | 16:45 |
| mugsie | that is basically 99% of the PTL job :) | 16:46 |
| bnemec | The Oslo team is pretty self-organizing so there isn't as much cat-herding as there might be in other projects. ;-) | 16:46 |
| mnaser | bnemec: the PTL was never supposed to be a cat herder imho ;) | 16:49 |
| bnemec | It was for some projects anyway though. I'm pretty sure John Dickinson even gave a presentation about it. :-) | 16:51 |
| mugsie | it was kind of the accepted common view of the role in the early days, we did try to limit that in later years, but not sure how successful we were | 16:51 |
| mugsie | I heard many people refer to the PTL role as "lead project cat herder" when describing what they did to people outside the tent | 16:52 |
| fungi | it was all part of mikal's vision for a kindler, gentler, "program team lead" | 16:52 |
| bnemec | Yeah, I don't think perception of the position has changed to reflect the new world order. | 16:53 |
| bnemec | In retrospect we probably should have changed the acronym. I still see people referring to it as project technical lead, which means they probably don't know the role changed either. | 16:54 |
| * mugsie still confuses it at times | 16:54 | |
| fungi | and mikal's no longer around to remind us on a weekly basis ;) | 16:54 |
| * bnemec advocates for Chief something or other so he can call himself a C-level | 16:56 | |
| * jungleboyj needs to catch up on everything here between meetings. | 17:37 | |
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| jungleboyj | Ok. All caught up and have given my 2 cents on the leaderless projects. | 17:56 |
| spotz | hehe | 17:58 |
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| openstackgerrit | Douglas Mendizábal proposed openstack/election master: Adding Douglas Mendizábal candidacy for Barbican https://review.opendev.org/716316 | 20:05 |
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| diablo_rojo | ricolin_, evrardjp for the meeting tomorrow we should probably talk about the technical election nominations period closing (if its not already on the agenda) | 20:15 |
| gmann | who is chairing tomorrow meeting? evrardjp ? i see "Chair: ?" in wiki - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:17 |
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| TheJulia | mnaser: I'm still all for moving towards a "maintainers" group per project as opposed to PTL, then again there is the good point of "who would run the meetings" | 21:52 |
| mnaser | TheJulia: yep, pretty much | 21:58 |
| TheJulia | And I'd hate to name someone the meeting runner for life or until we find someone better. | 22:00 |
| TheJulia | (Yes, I recently watched starship troopers.) | 22:00 |
| fungi | there is also the fact that teams aren't *strictly* required to hold meetings | 22:00 |
| fungi | so the answer to "who runs our meetings" could also be "nobody, we don't do meetings" | 22:01 |
| TheJulia | fungi: this is also true, but many teams don't re-sync without the periodic reminder to | 22:01 |
| TheJulia | some sort of status/update mechanism is needed | 22:01 |
| fungi | that may be getting at the crux of the problem though | 22:01 |
| TheJulia | Maybe a virtual stand-up is needed | 22:02 |
| fungi | if everybody agrees something needs doing yet nobody wants to do it, maybe it's time to reevaluate the value of that that thing everyone thinks is needed but nobody wants to do? | 22:02 |
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| TheJulia | it then also becomes a question of "I may want" "but my overlord doesn't" or vise versa in an agree what is best for a project or disagree what is best for a project pov | 22:03 |
| fungi | that also goes back to redefining who the actual contributor is, and who is merely a proxy for the contributor | 22:04 |
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| TheJulia | That statement kind of brings my mind back to mordred's recent ML comment about perception that people can't delineate the conflict between employer wants/projects needs which seems no longer true of a mature community, at least in my mind | 22:05 |
| mordred | I didn't do it | 22:05 |
| TheJulia | mordred: that was too quick | 22:05 |
| mordred | :) | 22:05 |
| mordred | so - I agree with TheJulia in referencing what I said ... | 22:06 |
| mordred | but I'd like to bring up a completely contrary point of view to the maintainers thing real quick | 22:06 |
| TheJulia | mordred: by all means! | 22:06 |
| mordred | I think it can be useful to have a human who is PTL in the _original_ sense of the word - a tech lead. someone to whom the maintainers naturally look to when there is a question about the best way to proceed forward. not a dictator and not a cat herder - but someone who is actually in the business of making sure the project has a cohesion | 22:07 |
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| TheJulia | I can completely concur with that statement | 22:08 |
| mordred | I think we've done an amazing job of being a leaderless collective, and honestly we're probaby the most successful example of such a thing that's ever lasted more than a month | 22:08 |
| fungi | we managed that by redefining ourselves monthly ;) | 22:09 |
| TheJulia | in a sense, we're also all leaders in a way | 22:09 |
| mordred | yes! | 22:09 |
| mordred | when nobody is a leader everyone is a leader | 22:10 |
| TheJulia | Some of us more comfortable with various aspects or things | 22:10 |
| * mordred is more comfortable when surrounded by a pile of kittens | 22:10 | |
| TheJulia | +2+A bring on all the kittens | 22:11 |
| fungi | those were still alive when i put them there, i swear | 22:11 |
| TheJulia | :( | 22:11 |
| mordred | speaking of - if everyone hasn't watched Kitten Rescuers yet ... I highly recommend it | 22:11 |
| * TheJulia adds it to tonight's list | 22:11 | |
| TheJulia | If it help with the headspace and all, I'm all for it | 22:12 |
| mordred | but ... anyway, as much as I support the maintainerification direction - I do worry that if we completely remove the position that we'll grow defacto ptls who are unelected and as such un-delectable | 22:12 |
| mordred | un-de-electable | 22:12 |
| mordred | un-delectable is a totally different thing | 22:12 |
| TheJulia | heh | 22:12 |
| fungi | but still delectable? | 22:12 |
| mordred | this is sort of like the current american monarchy | 22:12 |
| mordred | we didn't elect them, so we're really not sure how to get rid of them | 22:13 |
| * mordred is speaking of the billionaires not the politicians | 22:13 | |
| TheJulia | I suspect withotu encouragement for projects to change, to evolve... They may already have un-de-electable leaders already | 22:13 |
| mordred | TheJulia: very probably | 22:13 |
| fungi | mordred: they're great with just a touch of barbecue sauce | 22:13 |
| mordred | TheJulia: I now want to get a set of tshirts that just say "un-de-electable" on them | 22:14 |
| mordred | with no explanation | 22:14 |
| TheJulia | mordred: +2+A | 22:14 |
| mordred | except maybe a small-print eavesdrop link on the back | 22:14 |
| TheJulia | mordred: I'm all for ordering myself one of these shirts, women's cut of course | 22:15 |
| clarkb | mordred: is that another name for tiger king? | 22:16 |
| TheJulia | To the point that we already have leaders in such positions, I suspect, and I'm definitely speaking from my own personal perceptions, that they try to walk the what is best line to support those around them. | 22:16 |
| TheJulia | But going back to the PTL topic, at some point it became a burnout machine in that the PTL must and should do everything... and watching it destroy people is just heartbreaking. | 22:17 |
| TheJulia | Is everyone watching Tiger King? It just came up on my twitter feed as well | 22:19 |
| clarkb | TheJulia: I resisted until my wife convinced me then we couldn't stop watching it | 22:20 |
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| clarkb | its not the easiest thing to watch though | 22:20 |
| mordred | I am not watching it | 22:21 |
| mordred | I am watching 100 humans though | 22:21 |
| mordred | so I'm not sure I'm any better | 22:21 |
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| njohnston | Not watching Tiger King, still working my way through Ozark | 22:22 |
| clarkb | njohnston: tiger king feels a lot like ozark except its real people | 22:24 |
| * TheJulia looks at a clock and realizes it is time to begin pondering cooking dinner | 22:26 | |
| njohnston | I think my real question with the PTL-less model is who picks the required liaison roles? And who picks candidates for core? If the answer is “the committee of existing cores” then I think we trade some issues for other possibly equally pernicious issues. | 22:28 |
| fungi | what have you got against self-perpetuating oligarchies anyway? ;) | 22:29 |
| gmann | njohnston: i am 100% sure that there is no situation where active team are leaderless (till now). it is no active members so no PTL. | 22:29 |
| fungi | well, maybe the infra team (but we're intentionally leaderless) | 22:30 |
| gmann | i personally do not find PTL role so hard. it is easy job (with few exception where project has a lot lot of activities). | 22:30 |
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| gmann | yeah infra is one. not sure why ? | 22:31 |
| fungi | there have also been other cases in modern history of openstack where teams have chosen not to elect a leader because they're ready to transition to a different organizational structure (usually a sig) | 22:31 |
| fungi | the security team, the stable branch team, et cetera | 22:32 |
| gmann | that is separate case, i mean project teams and they want to continue as project team but no leader | 22:32 |
| fungi | right | 22:32 |
| gmann | i am thinking whom to ask about maintainer or release liaison becasue there is no one in team :) | 22:33 |
| fungi | in the openstack governance sense of the term "team" i guess those are cases of groups of people who no longer want to organize under the "team" model | 22:33 |
| gmann | getting contributor is the real solution, who should do is different topic though. | 22:34 |
| TheJulia | njohnston: Cores, in theory, should be able to be nominated by anyone. Although people tend to look to the current leader to do it for them. | 22:34 |
| TheJulia | it is a "please do all administrative and organization work" for project sort of role, and that load will vary by project activity and interactions | 22:35 |
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| fungi | i've seen a lot of teams where one core reviewer will propose another new core reviewer in public to kick off the confirmation | 22:36 |
| fungi | not necessarily the ptl doing the nominating, just recording the team's consensus | 22:37 |
| TheJulia | Ironic, historically has been back-channel agreement before public proposal | 22:37 |
| TheJulia | and many hate it | 22:37 |
| gmann | yeah, adding core is not PTL-depended task. it can be initiated by anyone | 22:37 |
| TheJulia | I guess from a ptl standpoing, that person still serves as a person to seek and try and build that consensus | 22:38 |
| fungi | but yeah, i basically never see anyone nominate a core reviewer where the result isn't already a foregone conclusion, because the alternative can be quite demotivating for the proposer but especially for the nominee | 22:39 |
| fungi | having a lengthy ml thread about why you don't currently measure up to the expectations of current members of a core review group doesn't seem like a fun time | 22:40 |
| gmann | true. many project do the in-team discussions and that is good to avoid conflicts/demotivate things etc | 22:41 |
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| gmann | root cause behind majority of leaderless projects are 'no-maintainer' not 'hate-being-PTL'. | 22:43 |
| gmann | and solution is very clear (at least to me)- 'bring maintainers' :) who and how is the things we should work on | 22:44 |
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| TheJulia | fungi: yeah, that is a good point and it is a never a fun discussion, even privately | 22:48 |
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