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| ttx | njohnston: in the "liaisons" model, we rely on "team consensus" to designate cores and liaisons. If there is no such thing as "team consensus", the TC would step in. But in 99% of the cases those days there is team consensus, so that would just be a governance safety rail. | 09:02 |
|---|---|---|
| ttx | The PTL role was originally designed as a local safety valve to make final calls. And in the early days, many such calls had to be made. But over time, that function disappeared as team consensus replaced it | 09:05 |
| ttx | Nowadays, PTLs have become default contact points for everything, which is stressful. Since we actually only *need* accountability in very few areas (like "who has the authority to sign off on releases"), we can replace the PTL with a limited set of narrow-focused liaisons | 09:07 |
| ttx | That leaves the unlikely "scenario were a safety valve would be needed. Luckily, we already have a openstack-wide safety valve, the TC. So if they ever happened, those very rare cases can be escalated there. | 09:08 |
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| ttx | Re: meeting chair, that can be solved with a weekly rotation between core reviewers or something, if nobody volunteers to run them all | 09:17 |
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| evrardjp | did I lose some scrollback, or are we repeating what we said a few weeks ago? | 11:48 |
| * evrardjp hopes his sense of humor is well understood | 11:49 | |
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| mnaser | morning | 12:52 |
| cloudnull | o/ | 13:05 |
| gmann | morning | 13:05 |
| evrardjp | hello everyone | 13:07 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Clean up the TC roster https://review.opendev.org/716994 | 13:17 |
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| mnaser | why are we doing a "cleanup" change? | 13:30 |
| evrardjp | It's the first time we have that situation of not overlapping, IIRC. So I am proposing a cleanup. I don't think it's necessary, but it effectively reflects the current situation | 13:33 |
| evrardjp | As discussed many times in the past, the terms have expired in March. | 13:34 |
| mnaser | i think historically we've all been pretty ok of just changing over once the election finishes | 13:35 |
| mnaser | let's not try and be even more bureaucratic when we are tryign to reduce bureaucracy in openstack | 13:35 |
| mnaser | and esp when we have a few people that are running again | 13:35 |
| mnaser | the logistics of remove and add, plus putting the tc at an even size for a bit seems a bit much. | 13:36 |
| evrardjp | I am merely reflecting conversations we had. There were concerns about the validity | 13:36 |
| evrardjp | I will listen to your position, as much as I listen to the position of others. | 13:36 |
| mnaser | this just adds a whole bunch of headaches like who can vote on that change? do we stop landing things for a week or two? | 13:38 |
| evrardjp | that was the point that was raised. | 13:38 |
| mnaser | but i guess that doesn't matter because "my term expired" so i'll sit in my 2 week timeout | 13:38 |
| evrardjp | please note that I consider this a personal fail-safe. | 13:39 |
| mnaser | a fail-safe for? | 13:39 |
| fungi | if the desire is to avoid people questioning the validity of decisions made with a quorum consisting of technically expired members, a workaround could be to just have the new tc re-ratify any decisions made by the current tc members in the absence of a clear quorum | 13:39 |
| gmann | hold on, we already changed the charter for term to be 'till next election of TC term' | 13:40 |
| evrardjp | gmann: yes, so we are okay with that :) | 13:40 |
| fungi | gmann: that takes effect for anyone elected in the current election | 13:40 |
| evrardjp | but the current ones are still under the effects of the previous rules | 13:40 |
| fungi | it's not a time machine | 13:40 |
| evrardjp | as fungi says :) | 13:40 |
| evrardjp | let's not make a big fuss of this patch | 13:40 |
| mnaser | lol | 13:41 |
| evrardjp | and you're right fungi, it's indeed to avoid questioning the validity of the decisions. | 13:41 |
| ttx | Good thing we are not making any then | 13:41 |
| mnaser | a -W on all changes | 13:41 |
| mnaser | if that's _really_ an issue | 13:41 |
| gmann | fungi: evrardjp well, i think we did that change for considering this term situation and as per bylaw range- current member can extend term till next election. | 13:46 |
| gmann | which is not going beyond 16 months or whatever it is | 13:46 |
| ttx | I'll just say that really NOBODY cares about the TC membership overlap or absence thereof. | 13:47 |
| evrardjp | let me abandon that patch real quick, so we stop talking about it? | 13:47 |
| ttx | If someone is, they should be a lot more focused on other abuses, like the fact the TC can just rewrite rules as it goes | 13:47 |
| ttx | AND if someone really raises it as an issue, we can easily revert any change that they complain about | 13:48 |
| ttx | I understand the need to cross all ts and dot all is... but preemptively raising every corner case is not very productive | 13:49 |
| evrardjp | it took me one minute to write that patch, it takes me far more energy to discuss this | 13:49 |
| evrardjp | which I don't want to spend | 13:50 |
| gmann | hehe | 13:50 |
| ttx | exactly :) | 13:50 |
| * gmann start working after coffee | 13:50 | |
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| fungi | gmann: you're thinking of the tc charter change, the bylaws say the tc has to decide in advance of the election how long the newly elected members' terms will be valid, and for the prior two elections the tc didn't say how long those terms would be so per the osf bylaws they default to 12 months. i brought it up originally in the context of considerations we should take for scheduling elections, and to | 13:57 |
| fungi | make sure the tc knows that it needs to actually express its member terms in the ways that the bylaws now allow it to | 13:57 |
| fungi | (and starting with this election, it has by amending its charter accordingly) | 13:58 |
| evrardjp | that was my understanding too. The terms of the current members elected around March 2019 have expired. But let's stop this conversation, please. | 13:59 |
| jungleboyj | o/ | 13:59 |
| evrardjp | #startmeeting tc | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 2 14:00:21 2020 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is evrardjp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 14:00 |
| evrardjp | oops | 14:00 |
| evrardjp | oh no, I am right, it's time for the meeting | 14:00 |
| evrardjp | #topic rollcall | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| gmann | yeah | 14:00 |
| gmann | o/ | 14:00 |
| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/2YtTdoSEl4m4/giphy.gif | 14:01 |
| njohnston | o/ | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | o/ | 14:01 |
| mnaser | not sure i count, but, hi, i'm here. | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/l2SpZuKuoluoknWU0/giphy.gif | 14:01 |
| diablo_rojo | o/ | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | :) | 14:01 |
| jungleboyj | Hello all! | 14:01 |
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| * diablo_rojo has been awake for 2 hours already | 14:02 | |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 14:02 |
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| evrardjp | I think we technically have quorum :) | 14:02 |
| ttx | p/ | 14:03 |
| evrardjp | let's roll | 14:03 |
| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/KR0OAYFpP7gaY/giphy.gif | 14:03 |
| ttx | evrardjp: :) | 14:03 |
| evrardjp | #topic report on tc/uc merge | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on tc/uc merge (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:03 | |
| evrardjp | We had this in our reports meetings for a while. Now that ttx term is ending, | 14:03 |
| evrardjp | we would probably need someone to keep this topic alive, or bury it. | 14:03 |
| evrardjp | Please talk on the ML about what you think the next steps should be. | 14:03 |
| evrardjp | does that sound good ttx? | 14:04 |
| evrardjp | is that an accurate report? :p | 14:04 |
| mnaser | fwiw i don't think ttx cant drive it even if they're not part of the tc | 14:05 |
| * mugsie slinks in late | 14:05 | |
| evrardjp | not disagreeing there mnaser :) | 14:05 |
| mnaser | i don't want to sign them up for work but they certainly are in a place with access to all the right resources at the osf | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | no I just want the community to be aware of what's going on | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | that's merely this. | 14:05 |
| mugsie | I think some one on the TC should follow it, but the work can be done by anyone imho | 14:06 |
| evrardjp | mugsie: at least it should be clear whether we pursue this or not | 14:06 |
| mugsie | ++ | 14:06 |
| ttx | I'll drive simplification from where I stand | 14:06 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:06 |
| ttx | but yes, havign a TC official relay can't hurt | 14:06 |
| evrardjp | we'll make sure someone reports regularily on what's going on then | 14:07 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: ++ | 14:07 |
| gmann | +1 | 14:07 |
| evrardjp | #action keep track of the tc/uc merger topic further | 14:07 |
| evrardjp | ok next | 14:07 |
| mnaser | (i'm unsure as to why ttx can't just report themselves, but ok) | 14:07 |
| ttx | If anything, driving it without wearing the TC team jersey will facilitate | 14:07 |
| evrardjp | that's true | 14:07 |
| mugsie | mnaser: no one is saying they can't | 14:07 |
| evrardjp | and yeah, we welcome the reporting from other folks :) | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | I think it already happened in the past multiple times! Please join! :) | 14:08 |
| ttx | and with more ops incoming at the election, that should be easier to convince they will keep good representation | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | anyway | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | ttx: +1 | 14:08 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah, that is good to see. | 14:08 |
| njohnston | ttx: +1 | 14:08 |
| gmann | ttx: +100 | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | let's see how it reflects in the votes :) | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | #topic Report on the analysis of the 2019 survey (jungleboyj), and survey 2020. | 14:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on the analysis of the 2019 survey (jungleboyj), and survey 2020. (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:09 | |
| evrardjp | moving on | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | 2019 analysis is in | 14:09 |
| jungleboyj | Hello. | 14:09 |
| jungleboyj | Yes. Thank you for getting attention to it. | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | what about the trends for 2020? ;) | 14:09 |
| jungleboyj | Sorry for causing confusion with the topic on the change. | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | don't you worry about that. | 14:10 |
| evrardjp | that's paperwork, I can deal with that :) | 14:10 |
| gmann | jungleboyj: if i remember the chat, you or aspiers will add some blog or link somewhere ? | 14:10 |
| evrardjp | so you don't have to* | 14:10 |
| jungleboyj | I think we started getting some more interesting data as I started putting %'s in place. | 14:10 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 14:10 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: So, it is published now. I was hoping that aprice might get it into one of the things that she was releasing but I didn't see that happen. | 14:11 |
| evrardjp | Do we need further analysis on the 2019, and iterate over the text there? Or should we jsut wrap up 2019, and keep the framework for 2020? | 14:11 |
| gmann | perfect, i want to circulate that to company side also. | 14:11 |
| evrardjp | gmann: awesome! | 14:11 |
| evrardjp | gmann: | 14:11 |
| evrardjp | #link https://governance.openstack.org/tc/user_survey/analysis-12-2019.html | 14:12 |
| jungleboyj | Let me follow up with aprice to see where a good place to socialize this more might be. | 14:12 |
| gmann | +1 | 14:12 |
| jungleboyj | I have been meaning to send out a tweet with the link too. Will do that now. | 14:12 |
| evrardjp | :) | 14:12 |
| jungleboyj | Does anyone know how soon we will see the 2020 results? | 14:12 |
| evrardjp | I don't know. Could you ask aprice? :) | 14:13 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah. I will. | 14:13 |
| evrardjp | awesome. let's report on the next meeting then | 14:13 |
| jungleboyj | I would like to do that analysis sooner as I think it will be more interesting as we will have more than one data point. | 14:13 |
| aprice | jungleboyj: we incorporated it into a lot of direct outreach that we did last week for the user survey | 14:13 |
| evrardjp | oh, aprice! wonderful :) | 14:14 |
| jungleboyj | aprice: Ah, ok. I must have missed that. | 14:14 |
| jungleboyj | That is great. Thank you! | 14:14 |
| aprice | i do think that we can think about different ways to socialize it more as well, but there are also other places like on Superuser where we are plugging it in | 14:14 |
| aprice | yeah - it's that time we bug people to take the survey, so we used that link to show them how the upstream community really cares about their feedback | 14:14 |
| aprice | so thank you all :) | 14:14 |
| jungleboyj | aprice: Good. | 14:14 |
| gmann | +1 on putting on Superuser. | 14:14 |
| jungleboyj | Any idea when we will see the next results? | 14:15 |
| aprice | i can think about a few ideas and share with yall if you would like | 14:15 |
| gmann | and to BoDs too :) | 14:15 |
| aprice | +1 | 14:15 |
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| jungleboyj | aprice: Please do. | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | our pleasure aprice! I'm glad people can see that we care about their opinions, and want to learn from this! | 14:15 |
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| evrardjp | aprice: awesome! | 14:15 |
| asettle | WHAT A HUSTLE OMG I HATE LINUX | 14:15 |
| asettle | Hello o/ | 14:15 |
| aprice | definitely! | 14:16 |
| evrardjp | asettle: hahahah | 14:16 |
| evrardjp | your ircnickname (in my client) is green too. Just saying. | 14:16 |
| jungleboyj | asettle: I think that messaging is off brand. ;-) | 14:16 |
| mugsie | asettle: no comment | 14:16 |
| evrardjp | haha | 14:16 |
| evrardjp | let's go on | 14:17 |
| evrardjp | #topic Report on telemetry | 14:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on telemetry (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:17 | |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: Sounds good. | 14:17 |
| evrardjp | ricolin_: anything to report? | 14:17 |
| evrardjp | should we consider all is fine now, and the crisis is averted? ;) | 14:17 |
| asettle | jungleboyj, nah mate super on brand for my goddam week. | 14:17 |
| asettle | Whatever, mdae it | 14:17 |
| ttx | asettle is obviously orange | 14:17 |
| asettle | evrardjp, I'm green? | 14:18 |
| evrardjp | ttx: hulk is definitely green. And she is working at SUSE, so moar green. You have to guess why I said green now. | 14:18 |
| jungleboyj | :-) Yes you are. | 14:18 |
| asettle | Cause I'm green with ... hate | 14:18 |
| evrardjp | Or maybe because she cares about environment? Who knows...! | 14:18 |
| evrardjp | anyway | 14:18 |
| * jroll is suuuuper late but now here | 14:19 | |
| evrardjp | I think we can leave the telemetry topic on the agenda for next meeting | 14:19 |
| evrardjp | woot jroll! | 14:19 |
| asettle | jroll, I just got here too | 14:19 |
| gmann | evrardjp: +1 | 14:19 |
| evrardjp | #topic report on stable branch policy work | 14:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on stable branch policy work (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:19 | |
| evrardjp | this has been there for months, still no progress to report afaik | 14:20 |
| evrardjp | mnaser, any update? | 14:20 |
| evrardjp | last action item was you were okay to push an update to distill what happened on the ML in terms of stable branch policy | 14:20 |
| jungleboyj | https://gph.is/26kKW1Y | 14:20 |
| mnaser | no, i went over the mailing list thread and honestly felt like we ended up with many different options | 14:20 |
| evrardjp | should we at least document it, to say that we've tried to change it, and it wasn't successful due to lack of consensus? | 14:21 |
| mnaser | i think our entire stable and upgrade policy needs to be cleaned up and simplified | 14:21 |
| mnaser | i will push up a change in what i think is best for our community given the feedback | 14:22 |
| evrardjp | I think this isn't too far from my idea. I will tackle a documentation. | 14:22 |
| mnaser | i have a lot less going on than every time we talk about this | 14:23 |
| evrardjp | I have written a large idea already. If you want to think of a large change, I would welcome you to contribute to it. I will push that tomorrow. | 14:23 |
| evrardjp | ok let's move on, it seems we know the next steps | 14:23 |
| evrardjp | I will work with you on this mnaser | 14:23 |
| evrardjp | #topic report on the community goals | 14:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "report on the community goals (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:23 | |
| evrardjp | gmann: do you want to say a few words? | 14:24 |
| gmann | U cycle goal progress: | 14:24 |
| gmann | Contributor guide goal progress is here: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-March/013381.html | 14:24 |
| gmann | diablo_rojo: can add if anything more | 14:24 |
| gmann | this is py2 drop goal updates: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-April/013777.html | 14:24 |
| gmann | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-March/013381.html | 14:25 |
| gmann | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-April/013777.html | 14:25 |
| diablo_rojo | I think its pretty straight forward. | 14:25 |
| diablo_rojo | Making progress, slowly but surely. | 14:25 |
| gmann | py2 drop is very close, few projects are still left and i am reaching out to them and get those merge | 14:25 |
| gmann | I am going to start the audit soon, may be next week or so | 14:25 |
| jungleboyj | Well, the list of participating projects is a good start. | 14:26 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: ++ That is great. Thank you for all the work there. | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | gmann: That's a big milestone | 14:26 |
| gmann | for V cycle goal: This also has two possible candidates with champion | 14:26 |
| gmann | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-March/013528.html | 14:26 |
| gmann | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-v-series-goals | 14:26 |
| gmann | items 3rd and 4th in that etherpad. | 14:26 |
| gmann | we are hoping to get those goal proposal soon, may be after u-3 | 14:27 |
| evrardjp | I would love to see those happen. | 14:27 |
| gmann | me and njohnston will continue tracking on those | 14:27 |
| njohnston | indeed | 14:27 |
| gmann | OSC migration as multi cycle goal is something i am positive about but lets see | 14:27 |
| gmann | that is all from my side. | 14:27 |
| evrardjp | yes! lbragstad and I were super thrilled to put that in our list a certain time ago. Let's not repeat mistakes of the past! :) | 14:28 |
| evrardjp | anyway | 14:28 |
| gmann | :), sure lets try again. | 14:28 |
| * evrardjp and his old memories :) | 14:28 | |
| evrardjp | #topic Report on the OSF board initiatives | 14:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report on the OSF board initiatives (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:29 | |
| evrardjp | mnaser do you have anything to tell us from the board perspective, as you're our man there? :p | 14:29 |
| mnaser | i just want to speak about this, i'm not sure how this ended up on the agenda | 14:30 |
| mnaser | but just to be clear, while i sit on the board, the best thing to do is to rely on the updates that jbryce publishes post board meetings/discussions, as i wouldn't feel comfortable being a "spokesperson" from the board towards teh community and the implications of that | 14:31 |
| evrardjp | it was regularily on the agenda... I think the last 6 months. Nothing much to usually report though | 14:31 |
| mnaser | i'll gladly be the other way around as a bridge of the community towards the board, but i'd be more comfortable letting folks who know this stuff better than me for now :) | 14:31 |
| mnaser | (and really, i'm still settling down adn figuring it all out) | 14:32 |
| evrardjp | ok let's move on then | 14:33 |
| evrardjp | #topic Moving OpenDev discussion forward | 14:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Moving OpenDev discussion forward (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:33 | |
| evrardjp | I think that topic was raised by clarkb | 14:34 |
| mnaser | change has landed already, opendev is a thing, it might have been added before the change landed afaik | 14:34 |
| clarkb | ya, I put it on the agenda back when I wasn't sure what needed to be done to make progress here | 14:34 |
| evrardjp | yes, it's probably worth reporting what happened, for the folks who haven't followed? | 14:35 |
| evrardjp | Any of you two care saying a few words? | 14:35 |
| clarkb | since then we've made progress. If you are wondering what the next steps are on the OpenDev side we plan to spin up proper mailing list and meeting channels so that historical record of progress from this point can be recorded in places people are likely to look at them in the future | 14:35 |
| evrardjp | (or pointing to links) | 14:35 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:36 |
| evrardjp | thanks for the report! | 14:36 |
| clarkb | essentially we've formalized the (long) planned spin off of openstack-infra software hosting activities into opendev. The two major changes that I wanted to bring up here if we hadn't made progress were removing related infra projects from openstack/goverance and adding the basis of opendev governance to opednev docs | 14:36 |
| clarkb | formally electing a leader and building the advisory board of involved individuals is the next thing that we wwant to do on the new mailing list | 14:37 |
| mugsie | glad to see it happen :) | 14:37 |
| evrardjp | mugsie: +1 | 14:37 |
| evrardjp | awesome | 14:37 |
| clarkb | once the mailing list is up I'll send out subscription invites to the various project lists so those that are interested don't miss these conversations | 14:37 |
| clarkb | and that way history ends up preserved where people expect it (rather than say openstack-infra mailing ist) | 14:38 |
| evrardjp | I like it | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | Glad to see you're not blocked, and this is moving forward | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | ok let's move on | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | last topic for today | 14:39 |
| clarkb | yup EOD from me thanks | 14:39 |
| clarkb | er EOT | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | that was a short day :p | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | haha | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | #topic Technical Election Nomination Period Results | 14:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Technical Election Nomination Period Results (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:39 | |
| evrardjp | diablo_rojo: do you want to say a few words? | 14:40 |
| diablo_rojo | Yeah. | 14:40 |
| diablo_rojo | So. Basically we had 16 projects without PTL nominations in before the close | 14:40 |
| jungleboyj | :-( | 14:40 |
| diablo_rojo | There's a discussion going on in this etherpad for what to do: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/victoria-leaderless | 14:40 |
| diablo_rojo | a few have had people step up, but there are a number that require discussion. | 14:41 |
| mnaser | btw -- did we decide about tobias' nomination? | 14:41 |
| evrardjp | there were 7 in Ussuri IIRC | 14:41 |
| diablo_rojo | mnaser, the election officials feel that because his nomination wasn't into gerrit in time, that its not valid | 14:41 |
| gmann | we are 9 with no leader seems. I am positive on getting someone for tacker | 14:41 |
| diablo_rojo | Its a hard line, but I think its good to maintain a clear policy. | 14:42 |
| mnaser | diablo_rojo: ok so even if their ML post for nomination came before that? | 14:42 |
| diablo_rojo | If we had know he was having issues, we could have helped him. | 14:42 |
| evrardjp | gmann: I saw that, it's awesome. | 14:42 |
| diablo_rojo | mnaser, yeah I think we are treating the elections repo in gerrit as the source of truth. | 14:42 |
| mugsie | yeah, the repo as the source of truth has been the thing for a while | 14:43 |
| mnaser | fair. i'd encourage in the future for people to not post to teh mailing list in the future | 14:43 |
| mnaser | that way a new comer doesnt feel like "ok i sent my email, im good to go" | 14:43 |
| gmann | i really feel to relax the nomination things especially for 'Foundation Membership which automatic get disable for no vote in election for a year' | 14:43 |
| mnaser | not saying tobias is, but i can imagine someone seeing it that way :) | 14:43 |
| fungi | https://governance.openstack.org/election/#how-to-submit-a-candidacy doesn't mention a need to send candidacies to the mailing list at all, for what it's worth | 14:43 |
| ttx | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/victoria-leaderless | 14:43 |
| mnaser | but yeah, we're having more and more leaderless projects | 14:43 |
| mugsie | mnaser: yeah, there was talk of automting the nomination to the ML to clarify this, but I think it came into E_NO_TIME | 14:44 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: Yeah, that has always kind of just been something people do. | 14:44 |
| evrardjp | ttx: thanks for doing so :) | 14:44 |
| mnaser | lets all leave commenst about the leaderless projects in the etherpad | 14:44 |
| mnaser | and then maybe discuss during office hours | 14:44 |
| gmann | +1 | 14:45 |
| jungleboyj | So, dumb question on the Tobias situation will it default to a volunteer that is then Tobias? | 14:45 |
| fungi | are you soliciting input from non-tc-members in that etherpad, or just tc members? | 14:45 |
| mnaser | fungi: i think everyone should put comments there, not to limit to certain people :) | 14:45 |
| mugsie | jungleboyj: Tobias was running for the TC | 14:45 |
| mnaser | jungleboyj: in the case of tobias they were running for at tc seat | 14:45 |
| fungi | jungleboyj: if you mean tobberydberg, he was submitting a candidacy for a seat on the tc, not as a ptl for a prohect | 14:45 |
| fungi | project | 14:46 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, I think I am fine with anyone submitting opinions. | 14:46 |
| jungleboyj | Doh. Ok. I missed the context there. | 14:46 |
| mnaser | so if any non-tc members that are sitting here quietly reading this meeting | 14:46 |
| mnaser | feel free to leave comments | 14:46 |
| jungleboyj | Bummer that that got messed up. Ok. | 14:46 |
| mnaser | (previous tc members dont count, we know fungi will always be around :P) | 14:46 |
| jungleboyj | He he. | 14:46 |
| fungi | diablo_rojo: mnaser: thanks, in that case the infra team can take the opportunity to explain in the etherpad why they didn't produce a ptl candidate and what they actually want to do | 14:46 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, yeah that sounds good. Please do! | 14:47 |
| mnaser | fungi: yes, i think i have a very vague idea of where it might be going given the current direction | 14:47 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: ++ Yeah, the discussion in there is good and should have all parties involved. | 14:47 |
| diablo_rojo | Basically I just wanted people to make aware of the etherpad as we will need to figure that all out at some point. | 14:47 |
| gmann | any deadline for that ? | 14:48 |
| evrardjp | asap? | 14:48 |
| gmann | before final release or after | 14:48 |
| mnaser | there is none but logistically it's probably better to have it cleared out | 14:48 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, I think it would be nice to have decided by the time the rest of the election closes/ the final release yeah. | 14:48 |
| * diablo_rojo puts election official hat on | 14:48 | |
| ttx | fwiw I was CC-ed on an email from the CloudKitty PTL to the list that never made it | 14:48 |
| gmann | ok | 14:48 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, can you also tag the repo for us so we can generate the electorate? | 14:48 |
| ttx | Maybe some weird moderation issue | 14:48 |
| mugsie | yeah, we have had some of the appointmes drag on for weeks after elections | 14:48 |
| mnaser | diablo_rojo: what was the tag name again? | 14:49 |
| ttx | fungi: is there anything from jferrieu in the moderation queue ? | 14:49 |
| mnaser | ttx: fungi mentioned that over teh weekend the ML did oom a bunch of times | 14:49 |
| diablo_rojo | mnaser, uhhh I think its normally $year-$month-elections or something like that? | 14:49 |
| ttx | could be that he used a non-list email | 14:49 |
| * evrardjp facepalms | 14:50 | |
| mnaser | diablo_rojo: yeah, we count this as april or march? | 14:50 |
| fungi | ttx: i'll take a look, haven't checked it yet this morning | 14:50 |
| diablo_rojo | mnaser, april? cause thats when the polling will happen and the elections will conclude? | 14:51 |
| evrardjp | diablo_rojo: seems like mnaser wants to handle this? | 14:51 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, lol seems like it :) | 14:51 |
| mnaser | i'm helping driving the discussion | 14:51 |
| fungi | mnaser: the memory issues only delayed deliveries by part of a day | 14:51 |
| mnaser | and helping understand what we'll be doing | 14:51 |
| mnaser | so i guess the tag should be apr-2020-elections | 14:51 |
| mnaser | based on the previous history: https://review.opendev.org/#/admin/projects/openstack/governance,tags | 14:52 |
| diablo_rojo | mnaser, works for me :) I had the details right and the order wrong | 14:52 |
| mnaser | yep | 14:52 |
| mugsie | we still have one topic left, so tagging logistics can be done off line, rigth? | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | I agree | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | let's move on | 14:52 |
| mugsie | not sure if prakesh is here though | 14:52 |
| fungi | Subject: [election][cloudkitty][ptl] Announcing my PTL candidacy for CloudKitty (Justin Ferrieu) | 14:52 |
| fungi | Received: Thu Apr 2 10:14:56 2020 | 14:52 |
| fungi | approving it now | 14:52 |
| mugsie | prakash* | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | prmachan ? | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | #topic refstack 2020 | 14:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "refstack 2020 (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:53 | |
| fungi | evrardjp: usually "pramchan" in irc | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | I just copy-pasted :) | 14:53 |
| mugsie | he emailed the board list last night to say he would be here, but I don't see him | 14:53 |
| gmann | not sure if he joined. | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | I don't see him here at least | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | and he didn't answer on my ML | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | mail* | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | so I wasn't sure if showing up or not | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | let's hope this will be for the office hours then | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | thanks everyone for joining! | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | #endmeeting | 14:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/" | 14:55 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 2 14:55:03 2020 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:55 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-04-02-14.00.html | 14:55 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-04-02-14.00.txt | 14:55 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-04-02-14.00.log.html | 14:55 |
| gmann | thanks everyone and evrardjp for chair | 14:55 |
| jungleboyj | Thanks! | 14:55 |
| mugsie | re: refstack I suppose from the TC side - we need to decide if we a: care, b: want to do anything for the trademark program | 14:55 |
| ttx | Thanks! | 14:55 |
| njohnston | thanks evrardjp and everyone | 14:55 |
| mugsie | thanks evrardjp | 14:56 |
| ttx | mugsie: my personal opinion is... if the board does not care about it, it's not our role to sustain it | 14:56 |
| ttx | We should support the board leading that | 14:56 |
| ttx | and answer all questions they have, provide required test coverage etc | 14:56 |
| mugsie | yeah, but I care about the outcome of the program, which enforces at least some layer of interop | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | mmm | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | agreed with mugsie | 14:56 |
| ttx | but if there is no interest at board level in having trademark programs... it's not our role to maintain it | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | openstackclient and sdk programs do, too, I think | 14:57 |
| fungi | that thread previously went down a rabbit hole of how to add airship tests to tempest for an airship interoperability trademark program, so there's probably still some confusion among one or more board members as to what the openstack interop, refstack and tempest relationship is | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | could you clarify maintain "it" ? | 14:57 |
| ttx | mugsie: I'm not convinced it does increase interoperability | 14:57 |
| mugsie | no. but iof the issue is with maintaining the testing tools, that *could* come into our remit | 14:57 |
| mnaser | so | 14:57 |
| gmann | ttx: +1 and we also do know if provider care any more. may be first question is who need it | 14:57 |
| mnaser | going back to tagging | 14:58 |
| evrardjp | mugsie: +1 | 14:58 |
| mnaser | i just rememberd that we used the releases repo for tagging in the last election | 14:58 |
| mnaser | https://opendev.org/openstack/releases/commit/c90e38b3adac969bdb45a6dd57b5050a78707680 | 14:58 |
| mnaser | cc evrardjp diablo_rojo | 14:58 |
| mugsie | ttx: you don't think so? | 14:58 |
| mnaser | our interop story is so hard | 14:58 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: yes, that's where I intended to do the patch | 14:58 |
| ttx | mugsie: I mean, in practice. | 14:58 |
| gmann | From tempest side, we keep continue the interop as one of user and support for maintaining/adding new tests | 14:58 |
| mugsie | I think inside of HPE there is defnietely teams who would have done a hard API breaking change to fix bugs | 14:59 |
| mnaser | if i have to decide what image uuid o or name i need to use per cloud | 14:59 |
| ttx | It's a program where you submit results that say "I pass" | 14:59 |
| mugsie | there was* | 14:59 |
| mnaser | it isn't interop | 14:59 |
| mnaser | we all have our feelings about dockerhub but the fact that it's a central repo that are namespaced which lets you pull in any image | 14:59 |
| mugsie | mnaser: yeah, that is hard, but being able to use the same terraform plugin to do it *is* a level of interop | 14:59 |
| mnaser | that can drive it | 14:59 |
| mnaser | sure | 15:00 |
| mugsie | thats what i care about | 15:00 |
| mnaser | i will agree that it is a level of interop but | 15:00 |
| mugsie | Would I prefer the Azure image selection logic? 100% | 15:00 |
| mnaser | mugsie: pls give us all your azure trade secrots | 15:00 |
| mnaser | i promise not to tell nobody | 15:00 |
| mugsie | :D | 15:00 |
| mnaser | no bamboozle | 15:01 |
| ttx | I wonder basically if having a text description of the services that need to be in an openstack cloud and ask people to sign a document that say "yes I run those" would not have the same effect and be 10 times easier to maintain, is all | 15:01 |
| mnaser | ttx: given that the current process _is_ self-certification | 15:01 |
| ttx | exactly | 15:01 |
| mnaser | if someone was to not be honest about it, they wouldn't be honest about it in both ways | 15:01 |
| ttx | same effect, less maintenance cost | 15:02 |
| mnaser | regardless if they wrote an assertion, or they just setup devstack in a vm, took the results and posted them | 15:02 |
| mnaser | if we're not "auditing" it ourselves, it's probably mostly meaningless | 15:02 |
| ttx | And signing a document that says "I swear its this way" is actually more committing that submitting supposedly-not-curated test results | 15:02 |
| * mnaser looks at boeing and FAA | 15:02 | |
| mugsie | true. we should probably keep the tests still in that case to say in the signed thing "my tests passed" | 15:02 |
| mnaser | mugsie: but if we do that, then we have to maintain a list of tests | 15:03 |
| mnaser | and have a system to manage/submit/deal with them | 15:03 |
| mnaser | and have people to keep track of that | 15:03 |
| mugsie | running nova, and running nova with a crap tron of api-extenttions are two very different things | 15:03 |
| ttx | I see one good reason to keep it -- it's good that people have a way to check that they are compliant | 15:03 |
| mugsie | ttx: ++ | 15:03 |
| ttx | but as an interoperability forcing function ? meh | 15:03 |
| ttx | not convinced :) | 15:04 |
| gmann | mugsie: no more extensions way in nova now :) | 15:04 |
| ttx | I mean, if there is a lot of interest from the ecosystem, resulting in a lot of board members motivated to drive it, I don;t mind | 15:04 |
| *** pramchan has joined #openstack-tc | 15:05 | |
| gmann | pramchan: is here | 15:05 |
| ttx | But if there is no interest at that level, I don;t think we should keep it just because it's something we always did | 15:05 |
| mnaser | now | 15:06 |
| mnaser | leaderless projects? | 15:06 |
| ttx | It's valuable if the ecosystem finds it valuable, basically | 15:06 |
| mnaser | do we want to talk through those? | 15:06 |
| ttx | mnaser: I think people should just weigh in on the etherpad for now | 15:06 |
| mnaser | ttx: fair 'nuff | 15:07 |
| diablo_rojo | I am double meeting-ing atm so I might have to catch up later. | 15:07 |
| ttx | Oslo is the main pain point | 15:07 |
| pramchan | I am in | 15:07 |
| mugsie | there does seem to consenus building in there | 15:07 |
| pramchan | Hi all pramchan here regards to regards to Refstack | 15:07 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah, there is an OSF update meeting right now for those who may not know. | 15:08 |
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| fungi | "community meeting" (conference call) | 15:08 |
| pramchan | Ye I am on that while I can have few questions answered here | 15:08 |
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| pramchan | #link httpd://refstack.openstack.org | 15:09 |
| pramchan | This has the 2020 latest runs for 2019.11 based runs for the latest Train release | 15:10 |
| ttx | pramchan: hi! | 15:10 |
| pramchan | yes | 15:10 |
| evrardjp | pramchan: hi! | 15:10 |
| pramchan | yes | 15:11 |
| pramchan | we do need to add a blueprint for train and get board approval so that it can cover (R,S,T) release and we can implement it | 15:12 |
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| pramchan | So will need volunteers to do that, after Interop WG meeting which I will discuss in community call now and here is the link | 15:15 |
| pramchan | #link https://opendev.org/openstack/refstack/src/branch/master/specs/ | 15:15 |
| fungi | has the board of directors found any volunteers yet? | 15:15 |
| fungi | or you're just hoping the tc members will be able to help get the word out that you're looking for some volunteers? | 15:16 |
| gmann | pramchan: volunteer on defining and ,maintaining guidelines or its execution tool refstack ? | 15:17 |
| pramchan | fungi I need atleast one volunteer to submit the patch for submiting once we have decoded the tests to use | 15:17 |
| pramchan | So yes hoping to cathcup with new PTL of Tempest | 15:18 |
| fungi | that'll be masayukig, the upcoming quality assurance team volunteer | 15:19 |
| gmann | I think it is separate things from QA (Tempest). we maintain tests in Tempest and can continue to do that | 15:19 |
| gmann | pramchan: and refstack was not under QA | 15:19 |
| fungi | and yes, the interoperability guidelines haven't traditionally been maintanied by the quality assurance team or the tempest developers, it's been handled by the osf board of directors interoperability working gruop | 15:20 |
| pramchan | masayukig and will work with mann to define what to expect after I get Boards approval for the tests to use for Train | 15:20 |
| pramchan | I am represnting Interoperability group from Board and once ready with test come back | 15:20 |
| pramchan | If you have any advice todo or not please advice -Thanks | 15:21 |
| pramchan | Also you can send email to pramachanATyahooDOTcom ' | 15:22 |
| ttx | Thanks for helping driving that process forward, pramchan ! | 15:22 |
| gmann | pramchan: we have QA office hour on every Tuesday 13.30 UTC on #openstack-qa, please ping us there for help or question from Tempest side- https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/QATeamMeeting | 15:25 |
| fungi | for the record, here are the people with permission to approve changes into the openstack/interop project where the guidelines are maintained: https://review.opendev.org/#/admin/groups/626,members | 15:25 |
| ttx | yeah so those were the board members previously involved | 15:26 |
| ttx | + Chris that was helping from the OSF side | 15:27 |
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| mnaser | yep | 15:36 |
| jungleboyj | Ugh, I missed the note on the virtual PTG planning this morning. Sorry diablo_rojo | 15:43 |
| clarkb | jungleboyj: there are two more meetings next week | 15:44 |
| clarkb | 6th and 7th at times I don't remember | 15:44 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah, putting them on the Calendar now. | 15:44 |
| jungleboyj | Just found the e-mail. | 15:44 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, no worries, there are other opportunities. | 15:45 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 15:45 |
| diablo_rojo | (thats why I was up even before the crack of dawn) | 15:45 |
| jungleboyj | So that is why you were up at 5 am. | 15:45 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, yessir | 15:45 |
| gmann | is that sent on ML? or i missed those | 15:46 |
| diablo_rojo | with 4.5 hours of sleep and running the meeting | 15:46 |
| jungleboyj | I had one of those meetings last week. So much fun. | 15:46 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, yeah I sent it to the ML | 15:46 |
| diablo_rojo | we also sent it directly to those that volunteered to help | 15:46 |
| gmann | ohk i remember. and added 6th and 7th one. | 15:48 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah. On my calendar now. | 15:48 |
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| fungi | ttx: evrardjp: moving the governance tagging discussion here, the election officials actually pass the name of the git tag to their tooling to generate the electoral rolls, so the tag itself exists first | 16:05 |
| fungi | https://governance.openstack.org/election/process.html "Once the email deadline is reached[...]Ask the TC chair to tag the governance repository" | 16:06 |
| fungi | which i suppose now that we have release automation, could be election officials propose the tag in the releases repo, then the tc chair approves it | 16:07 |
| fungi | or confirms it | 16:07 |
| evrardjp | yup | 16:07 |
| evrardjp | I proposed a patch in releases for that | 16:07 |
| evrardjp | but I am not sure which SHA was used for the generate-rolls (and if it ran already or not). Let's discuss that in election | 16:08 |
| diablo_rojo | Thank you evrardjp! | 16:08 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, the rolls havent been generated yet | 16:09 |
| fungi | evrardjp: it hasn't been run yet, it gets run after the tag has been created | 16:09 |
| fungi | the rolls are run against whatever is tagged | 16:09 |
| diablo_rojo | Yeah. That. | 16:09 |
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| smcginnis | diablo_rojo: I've heard negative feedback and concern from a few people now. Any chance we can move those community meetings off of zoom onto jitsi or something? At least until zoom isn't suffering multiple zero day exploits and sending tracking info to Facebook? | 16:16 |
| fungi | smcginnis: you can count me in the set of people with those concerns about zoom | 16:17 |
| diablo_rojo | smcginnis, I will bring it up to people right now. I feel like I've asked before and don't remember: is jitsi available in China? | 16:17 |
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| smcginnis | Not entirely sure, but we could always host our own instance to make sure it is. | 16:18 |
| * smcginnis says like hosting and maintaining a communications platform is no big deal | 16:18 | |
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| diablo_rojo | smcginnis, lol | 16:19 |
| diablo_rojo | I am not volunteering for that job. | 16:19 |
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| fungi | you're clearly not following the conversation in #opendev ;) | 16:23 |
| evrardjp | matrix has webrtc | 16:33 |
| evrardjp | wow | 16:34 |
| evrardjp | that was wrong | 16:34 |
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| evrardjp | riot can do conferences by relying on matrix for signalling webrtc | 16:34 |
| mnaser | smcginnis: fyi i recently learned this but zoom actually has a webrtc interface | 16:34 |
| mnaser | smcginnis: just refuse to start the download a few times, refresh the page and it will pop up asking you if you want to start zoom in your browser | 16:35 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, it's pretty limited, but probably works for this type of meeting. | 16:35 |
| fungi | mnaser: huh, that's good to know! | 16:36 |
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| mnaser | fungi: https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/214629443-Zoom-Web-Client | 16:37 |
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| mordred | smcginnis: to echo what fungi was just saying - we're working on a jitsi/etherpad solution right now- still several kinks to work out related to browser support and whatnot | 17:01 |
| smcginnis | mordred: Awesome, very nice! | 17:02 |
| mordred | and it is, in fact, a self-hosted thing | 17:02 |
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| openstackgerrit | Tim Burke proposed openstack/election master: Adding Tim Burke candidacy for Swift https://review.opendev.org/716379 | 21:06 |
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