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| PaulMurray | #startmeeting Nova Live Migration | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 16 14:00:27 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is PaulMurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_live_migration' | 14:00 |
| PaulMurray | hi - anyone here for LM | 14:00 |
| paul-carlton2 | hi | 14:01 |
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| mdbooth | o/ | 14:01 |
| mriedem | o/ | 14:01 |
| davidgiluk | o/ | 14:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 14:01 |
| PaulMurray | I thought there would be no one for a minute - I was going to head for the beach | 14:01 |
| PaulMurray | agenda here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NovaLiveMigration | 14:02 |
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| * mdbooth is lurking, trying to address a bunch of review comments before eod | 14:02 | |
| PaulMurray | I'm still catching up after vacation | 14:02 |
| PaulMurray | #topic Libvirt image backend | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Libvirt image backend (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:02 | |
| PaulMurray | anything here mdbooth ? | 14:02 |
| mdbooth | Yep | 14:02 |
| mdbooth | I've had a bunch of really good review from jaypipes and dansmith | 14:03 |
| mdbooth | And I'm hoping I can land the test changes over the next few days | 14:03 |
| PaulMurray | saw some disagreements about your test | 14:03 |
| mdbooth | That's actually a substantial chunk of the work | 14:03 |
| mdbooth | Yeah, the substantive disagreements are done, though | 14:03 |
| mdbooth | That was just trivia | 14:04 |
| mdbooth | So there's still a ton of stuff to land, and I'm actually furiously rewriting some of it :) | 14:04 |
| PaulMurray | good - so just need reviews | 14:04 |
| mdbooth | But it progresses | 14:04 |
| PaulMurray | is the series getting longer or shorter ? | 14:04 |
| mdbooth | It is now getting shorter | 14:04 |
| PaulMurray | good stuff - I'll spend some time on it this week, but you really need the +2s | 14:05 |
| mdbooth | Yup | 14:05 |
| mdbooth | I wrote some generator functions, btw | 14:05 |
| mdbooth | like get_ephemerals() | 14:05 |
| mdbooth | and functions to fetch local disk, swap, etc | 14:06 |
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| mdbooth | These were kinda ugly and represented a different interface | 14:06 |
| mdbooth | So as the reviews haven't got there yet I'm rewriting that part of the series | 14:06 |
| mdbooth | I say rewrite, but it's really code motion. | 14:06 |
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| mdbooth | If the reviews get there, I'll convert the new stuff into future patches and keep the existing code. | 14:07 |
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| PaulMurray | ok - anything else | 14:07 |
| mdbooth | Remind me what the deadline is? | 14:07 |
| PaulMurray | I was just trying to remember | 14:07 |
| mdbooth | I'm guessing I'm starting to be up against that. | 14:07 |
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| PaulMurray | mriedem, ? | 14:07 |
| * mriedem reads scrollback | 14:08 | |
| mriedem | 9/2 | 14:08 |
| mriedem | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Nova/Newton_Release_Schedule | 14:08 |
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| mriedem | probably more like 9/1 | 14:08 |
| mdbooth | mriedem: Thanks | 14:08 |
| davidgiluk | hmm, Luis doesn't seem to be back; I was hoping he'd fix the postcopy network bug | 14:08 |
| mriedem | i don't think we ever have a friday deadline | 14:08 |
| mdbooth | Yeah, I'm definitely up against that | 14:08 |
| mdbooth | Esp as I'm at a conference next week :/ | 14:08 |
| PaulMurray | that is close | 14:09 |
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| mriedem | mdbooth: i thought there were red hat team trust falls in toronto? | 14:10 |
| mdbooth | mriedem: It's KVM forum, and we're also doing Red Hat team trust falls | 14:10 |
| PaulMurray | mdbooth, will anyone be able to continue while your gone ? | 14:10 |
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| mdbooth | Incidentally, I'll be at KVM forum and I have a talk scheduled for our internal libvirt team | 14:10 |
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| mdbooth | I was planning to talk about all the features we wish we had in libvirt | 14:11 |
| mdbooth | If anybody would like me to present their pet feature to RH's libvirt team, let me know | 14:11 |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: Realistically no, but I'll be working on it | 14:11 |
| davidgiluk | mdbooth: Anything you want from qemu? | 14:11 |
| mdbooth | davidgiluk: I'm sure we'll let you know :) | 14:12 |
| mdbooth | Feature parity for qemu nfs and iscsi would be awesome | 14:12 |
| PaulMurray | lets move on | 14:13 |
| PaulMurray | #topic Storage pools | 14:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Storage pools (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:13 | |
| PaulMurray | anything to say paul-carlton2 | 14:13 |
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| PaulMurray | no paul-carlton2 | 14:14 |
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| PaulMurray | we can come back if we need to.... | 14:14 |
| PaulMurray | #topic CI | 14:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "CI (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:14 | |
| paul-carlton2 | yep, resubmitted spec fro Ocata | 14:14 |
| paul-carlton2 | got feedback from danpb before I went away | 14:15 |
| PaulMurray | ok | 14:15 |
| paul-carlton2 | more feedback to incorporate but busy with internal stuff today | 14:15 |
| PaulMurray | The agenda items for CI are the ones that were there last week I think | 14:15 |
| PaulMurray | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/329466/ - NFS shared storage enablement | 14:16 |
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| PaulMurray | that has a -1 from mriedem | 14:16 |
| PaulMurray | is tdurakov around ? | 14:16 |
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| mriedem | it's a simple fix for the -1 | 14:18 |
| mriedem | needs a rebase though | 14:18 |
| mriedem | i haven't checked the live migration test results since we started skipping the volume-backed live migraiton test | 14:18 |
| mriedem | but that was supposed to make it more stable | 14:18 |
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| mriedem | want to give me an action to follow up on that? | 14:18 |
| PaulMurray | will do | 14:19 |
| PaulMurray | you mean the patch or the results ? | 14:19 |
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| PaulMurray | #action mriedem to follow up on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/329466/ and live migration stability | 14:20 |
| mriedem | all of it | 14:21 |
| mriedem | sure | 14:21 |
| PaulMurray | anything else on CI | 14:21 |
| mriedem | i should do something around here | 14:21 |
| PaulMurray | I saw the comment on "unexpected abort" bug being blocker for voting | 14:22 |
| PaulMurray | ah, the fix on the bug is to skip the test - have I got that right? mriedem | 14:23 |
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| PaulMurray | maybe I answered my own question - this is very one way today........ | 14:24 |
| mriedem | yes | 14:25 |
| mriedem | sorry in 3 channel discussions | 14:25 |
| PaulMurray | I noticed, but glad your here :) | 14:25 |
| PaulMurray | #topic Networking | 14:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Networking (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:25 | |
| PaulMurray | Not much progress on Swami's patches | 14:26 |
| mriedem | the dvr one? | 14:26 |
| PaulMurray | yes | 14:26 |
| mriedem | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/275073/ | 14:26 |
| PaulMurray | tempest one is failing - saw he rebased | 14:26 |
| mriedem | ok, | 14:26 |
| mriedem | i swear i was just about ready on that guy, all it needed was a rebase, and then it changed like 7 more times | 14:27 |
| mriedem | so i left it alone for awhile until it quieted down | 14:27 |
| PaulMurray | wow - the comments are so long it takes time to load them | 14:27 |
| PaulMurray | the last change was last week - I'll catch up with him and find out whats going on | 14:28 |
| PaulMurray | #action PaulMurray to follow up on Swami's DVR patch status | 14:29 |
| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy has this spec developing | 14:30 |
| PaulMurray | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/353982/ - WIP: Improve Nova and Neutron interactions | 14:30 |
| PaulMurray | it has live migration in it and he would like reviews | 14:30 |
| PaulMurray | neutron mid cycle is this week | 14:30 |
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| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy, does your spec cover the port binding update described in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/309416 | 14:31 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so, ish | 14:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | the idea is to work with neutorn and evolve that to some place that works | 14:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am hoping it will look similar to what we are doing with cinder too | 14:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | its very similar flows for both | 14:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | the main bit is, we want to track volume attachements / port bindings inside cinder/neutron such that you have two of them on a single volume / port during live-migration | 14:34 |
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| johnthetubaguy | neutron needs to know when the destination binding goes active | 14:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | cinder has some complications around shared per host connections to the storage array | 14:35 |
| PaulMurray | danpb suggested using garp from vm to indicate the new port is in use | 14:35 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, thats basically what we do downstream | 14:35 |
| PaulMurray | I talked to carl_baldwin about that a coupld of weeks ago | 14:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | but that depends on the network technology | 14:35 |
| PaulMurray | we thought it would work in some cases bu tmight not be general enough | 14:35 |
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| johnthetubaguy | its something neutron should be doing, either way | 14:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | there are driver specific actions to take on the destination port, when it needs to go active | 14:36 |
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| johnthetubaguy | basically it about getting the correct shared state, so neutron can do the gARP at the right time | 14:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyways, I am going to the neutron midcycle this week, so they know about the issues we are facing | 14:38 |
| johnthetubaguy | and hopefully come back with something that looks like a plan to fix things | 14:38 |
| PaulMurray | remember the post copy case - switchover in the middle of the migration | 14:39 |
| * PaulMurray has that on his mind all the time now | 14:39 | |
| PaulMurray | next topic is...... | 14:40 |
| * davidgiluk has that on his mind as well; but I don't know when Luis is back and I'm not sure who else to ask | 14:40 | |
| PaulMurray | #topic Open Discussion | 14:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:40 | |
| PaulMurray | anything here ? | 14:40 |
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| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: yeah, I mentioned post copy in the spec and comments on that other spec I think | 14:41 |
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| paul-carlton2 | live migration of affinity instances is an issue | 14:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: turns out thats mostly our own problem though. | 14:42 |
| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy, yes, I think so | 14:42 |
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| PaulMurray | paul-carlton2, is that a discussion or a statement ? | 14:44 |
| paul-carlton2 | we need a plan to fix group policies so this can be addressed | 14:44 |
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| PaulMurray | how would you fix them ? | 14:44 |
| paul-carlton2 | both, discussed it a few weeks agoo with johnthetubaguy but not sure we have agreement of a way forward | 14:44 |
| paul-carlton2 | I'd like to migrate all members of an affinity group in one operation but that is sort of orchestration which is out of scope | 14:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | does --force not let you work around that? | 14:45 |
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| johnthetubaguy | at least, I think that was the original plan | 14:46 |
| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy, that's what we do for now | 14:46 |
| paul-carlton2 | johnthetubaguy, yes but I don't like force it is too dangerous, requires operator to know everything about instance | 14:46 |
| PaulMurray | we can do "check destination" now | 14:47 |
| paul-carlton2 | I'd like --ignor-affinity so it still uses scheduler but overrides affinity only | 14:47 |
| PaulMurray | and name the host | 14:47 |
| paul-carlton2 | anti-affinity is not an issue, just affinity | 14:48 |
| PaulMurray | if affinity is best effort it works too | 14:48 |
| PaulMurray | only strict affinity has a problem | 14:48 |
| PaulMurray | so could losen the definition instead | 14:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | so my take is probably a bit extreme, per host affinity is basically broken anyway | 14:49 |
| PaulMurray | yep | 14:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | once we have the looser per rack affinity, etc, the problem kinda goes away | 14:49 |
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| paul-carlton2 | per host affinity works, provided you create instances serially | 14:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, its less acute, I should say | 14:50 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so there is another option maybe... | 14:50 |
| PaulMurray | or if you have strict affinity you just can't migrate | 14:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | ignore disabled hosts, when checking affinity | 14:51 |
| paul-carlton2 | The benefit of doing all instances as a single operation is you can find a host that has space for all members of group then move them one at a time till done | 14:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | so most cases its disable a host, move all the VMs, we could make affinity work better in that case | 14:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | paul-carlton2: yeah, true, thats the suck-ey bit | 14:51 |
| paul-carlton2 | So maybe a find host for these instances operation is the answer? | 14:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | so evenutally, you will be able to get all the claims from the placement API, then pass them into the live-migrate | 14:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | maybe we just leave this one to be fixed in the future | 14:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | --force for the short term | 14:52 |
| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy, yes, if the placement api deals with claims appropriately | 14:53 |
| PaulMurray | the problem is still there in the scheduler (placer) | 14:53 |
| paul-carlton2 | ok, but I'd like to provide a way for the operator to use the scheduler to identify host(s) that can accommodate the instances | 14:54 |
| PaulMurray | but yes, if we have a two phase get a claim/use claim we can do it | 14:54 |
| PaulMurray | but it becomes more orchestration | 14:54 |
| PaulMurray | paul-carlton2, constraints scheduler :0 | 14:54 |
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| PaulMurray | :) | 14:54 |
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| PaulMurray | I would redefine affinity to something we can do personally | 14:55 |
| PaulMurray | or refuse to migrate | 14:56 |
| PaulMurray | unless admin forces | 14:56 |
| paul-carlton2 | johnthetubaguy whlist on the subject of affinity and migration could you look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/339588/, it is a bug fix to anti-affinity migration | 14:57 |
| PaulMurray | time to close | 14:58 |
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| PaulMurray | thanks for coming | 14:58 |
| PaulMurray | #endmeeting | 14:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 16 14:58:58 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-08-16-14.00.html | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-08-16-14.00.txt | 14:59 |
| paul-carlton2 | bye | 14:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-08-16-14.00.log.html | 14:59 |
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| amrith | #startmeeting swg | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 16 15:00:04 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is amrith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'swg' | 15:00 |
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| amrith | #chair gothicmindfood ttx dhellmann | 15:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: amrith dhellmann gothicmindfood ttx | 15:00 |
| gothicmindfood | o/ | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 15:00 |
| amrith | courtesy ping for ttx | 15:00 |
| jroll | \o | 15:00 |
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| amrith | #agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SWGMeeting | 15:01 |
| amrith | #action amrith make a courtesy ping script for this meeting :) | 15:01 |
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| gothicmindfood | word. | 15:01 |
| ttx | o/ | 15:01 |
| * ttx multiplexing | 15:02 | |
| amrith | courtesy ping flaper87 devananda sdague | 15:02 |
| gothicmindfood | were there really no action items from the last meeting? | 15:02 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood, I looked at the meeting minutes from last week and there were none | 15:02 |
| sdague | o/ | 15:02 |
| jroll | I think we just barely got through the rest of that etherpad last meeting | 15:03 |
| gothicmindfood | yeah, I think we worked pretty hard on getting through the list and talking through that stuff | 15:03 |
| amrith | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2016/openstack_swg.2016-08-02-15.01.html | 15:03 |
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| amrith | so let's get started | 15:03 |
| amrith | #topic Review Action items from last week | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review Action items from last week (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:03 | |
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| amrith | I put this on there for the very reason that gothicmindfood alluded to. my eyebrows did go up a bit when I saw that | 15:04 |
| amrith | but I wasn't there for the whole meeting | 15:04 |
| amrith | and wanted to give those who were a chance to confirm or deny this assertion | 15:04 |
| amrith | that there were no action items. | 15:04 |
| * amrith waits | 15:04 | |
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| gothicmindfood | my memory (in LGA) was that we were going through that entire list to organize work | 15:04 |
| gothicmindfood | and that we didn't really have any actions that came out of that review | 15:04 |
| ttx | I was on a sailboat at that time, not my fault | 15:04 |
| amrith | ok, without objection, I'll move forward to | 15:05 |
| jroll | I don't remember any action items either, but I don't have the best memory when it comes to these things | 15:05 |
| amrith | #topic Continue review items short list from last meeting | 15:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Continue review items short list from last meeting (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:05 | |
| amrith | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/swg-short-list-deliverables | 15:05 |
| amrith | so this was the list we started two weeks ago | 15:05 |
| amrith | and there were specific action items proposed here. | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | I think we've organized the list now into things that have been started, things that need more discussion, and things that are done | 15:05 |
| amrith | courtesy ping mordred | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | as well as to remove duplicates and combine related items | 15:06 |
| amrith | looking at the open questions, I think we can say that #2 has been resolved | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | I agree | 15:07 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood, would you please update the list with details please. | 15:07 |
| amrith | #action gothicmindfood to update https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/swg-short-list-deliverables section 2 | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | and we can move that to resolved questions, too | 15:08 |
| amrith | One of my suggestions was that when we meet in NYC next week, we can discuss #5 | 15:08 |
| carolbarrett | Is Dean Troyer on the list for the next round of training? | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | carolbarrett : there's no funding for training for a while :-( | 15:08 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: yup, my bad (sorry I was stuck in the later numbers, forgot about the earlier stuff) | 15:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | meeting in NYC next week? | 15:09 |
| amrith | I had wanted to get some discussion of the notion of whether or not we can propose a consensus model based on Z's to the TC | 15:09 |
| carolbarrett | dhellman - too bad, I just saw that update on the etherpad | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : a few of us who happen to be at OpenStack Days East | 15:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, cool, that makes sense | 15:09 |
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| amrith | johnthetubaguy, yes, that's the next thing on the agenda (sorry, just mentioned it as I went through the list) | 15:09 |
| amrith | I would like to also discuss the consensus model in NYC if possible. | 15:10 |
| carolbarrett | amrith +1 | 15:10 |
| * jroll is sad he won't be there | 15:10 | |
| amrith | I believe that those two would likely consume the time we have in NYC | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | ttx had some good comments on the consensus model, but I don't see them here in this etherpad | 15:11 |
| amrith | dhellmann, I was looking for those, I believe he replied either to an email or in IRC | 15:11 |
| amrith | I recall reading them somewhere but can't find them now | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | yeah, email I think | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | maybe if we just keep saying ttx he'll respond and let us know where they are to keep his irc client from beeping | 15:11 |
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| amrith | #action <someone> find ttx's comments on consensus and why it may not work for TC and put them in etherpad | 15:12 |
| amrith | #undo | 15:12 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x7f5bbfc5f350> | 15:12 |
| ttx | perfect | 15:12 |
| amrith | #action ttx to put his comments on why consensus by Z's won't work for the TC in etherpad | 15:12 |
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| ttx | might be irc log | 15:12 |
| amrith | tag, you're it :) | 15:12 |
| ttx | actually was in that etherpad | 15:12 |
| gothicmindfood | so - I'd like to add I've been having a few thoughts re: cross-project goals and the consensus thing lately, which is that I think they're much harder to champion and work through without a vision | 15:13 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood, we're going to get to that shortly (on the agenda) | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | ttx, maybe something got lost in the reorg | 15:13 |
| ttx | no was in the consensis-specific etherpad | 15:13 |
| amrith | I'm hoping we make sure that we've cleaned up the list to the point where we know what the immediately actionable items, and the short-term to-do's are. | 15:14 |
| ttx | will copy | 15:14 |
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| ttx | amrith: my comments are in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/JQeiUOtnlV -- should I copy them and if yes where ? | 15:15 |
| amrith | ttx, that would be good, I think | 15:15 |
| amrith | if we could consolidate them | 15:15 |
| * amrith looks around to see what others think | 15:15 | |
| ttx | I'll copy under the short-list etherpad then | 15:16 |
| amrith | the big outstanding questions at this point appear to be | 15:16 |
| amrith | (a) who are our customers | 15:16 |
| jroll | maybe just link to that pad from the short-list | 15:16 |
| amrith | (b) how do we deal with consensus | 15:16 |
| amrith | (c) do we need a triple bottom line style | 15:16 |
| amrith | (d) how do we approach the visioning process for TC and openstack in general | 15:16 |
| amrith | (e) how do we get the 'live with' vs. 'live by' document out in the wild | 15:17 |
| amrith | are there others? | 15:17 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ttx: not seen your comments before, they are very good points | 15:17 |
| amrith | oh, of course, there is | 15:17 |
| amrith | (f) release specific goals - getting the currently active review merged | 15:18 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: all copied under 5.5 in the short-list etherpad | 15:18 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: is (e) re: mordred's principles? | 15:18 |
| amrith | thx ttx | 15:18 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood, yes | 15:18 |
| jroll | amrith: the shortlist *is* the big outstanding questions, right? | 15:18 |
| jroll | I see 10 | 15:18 |
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| amrith | jroll, the short list has some that are dependent. for example, 6 depends on visioning | 15:19 |
| jroll | ok, fair | 15:19 |
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| amrith | I've moved that under 2 now. | 15:20 |
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| amrith | and jroll some of the things are very operationally focused, like 9 | 15:21 |
| amrith | and we're starting to take steps in that direction, I think | 15:21 |
| amrith | dhellmann's review on project wide goals is asking for positive acknowledgement (for example) | 15:21 |
| ttx | Would be great to have mordred go public with the principles (or let us publicize them) before he disappears in the Nevada desert | 15:21 |
| amrith | ttx, would you take the action to chase him down? | 15:21 |
| ttx | because I think that's a stepping stone for the rest | 15:21 |
| dhellmann | I agree | 15:22 |
| ttx | I'm badly equipped to chase him down, TZ-wise | 15:22 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: I can pester him about it | 15:22 |
| * gothicmindfood misses pestering mordred when it was 'for work' | 15:22 | |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, discussing those principles sounds like a good plan | 15:22 |
| amrith | #action gothicmindfood to work on getting mordred's document out for broader distribution | 15:22 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: it's fine if he doesn't have time to finalize it, but we should be able to propose something after our in-person meeting next week | 15:22 |
| amrith | ttx, mordred won't be there in NYC | 15:23 |
| ttx | so we at least need his blessing in taking them and turning them into a proposal | 15:23 |
| ttx | amrith: right, which is why ^ | 15:23 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: agreed. I will talk with him before the rest of us meet up in NYC | 15:23 |
| amrith | ttx, understood | 15:23 |
| ttx | e | 15:23 |
| gothicmindfood | (unless he avoids me like the plague) | 15:24 |
| ttx | great :) | 15:24 |
| amrith | ok, so can I declare that we've made a good pass through the list and have a reasonable action plan moving forward? | 15:24 |
| ttx | I feel like we need to solve principles first, vision next and then discuss more pointy things like CODM or BLC | 15:24 |
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| ttx | we can't really work on everything in parallel | 15:25 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: I'd argue that solving principles involves making a good mini-vision there | 15:25 |
| * gothicmindfood is going to be the vision-heckler for everyone now | 15:25 | |
| amrith | ttx, gothicmindfood should we put visioning on the agenda for NYC? | 15:25 |
| amrith | more to the point, should we move to next agenda item to discuss that :) | 15:25 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: Ah! I knew you would. But we actually have a better idea of our principles than an idea of our vision. it's certainly backwards :) | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | amrith : I think that agenda is full already | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | so the principles feel more established than the vision at this point | 15:25 |
| amrith | dhellmann, yes | 15:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: +1 on that being the case, and it being backwards | 15:26 |
| gothicmindfood | so I think we're forgetting a bit that visioning can happen on a couple levels: | 15:26 |
| amrith | but maybe the issue is about the ordering of things | 15:26 |
| gothicmindfood | 1) the big broad, 5 year visions for groups | 15:26 |
| gothicmindfood | and 2) the vision for change, of any kind | 15:26 |
| gothicmindfood | (or a small event) | 15:26 |
| amrith | and whether vision comes (for example) before triple bottom line or who's the customer | 15:26 |
| gothicmindfood | and that it can be useful in all sorts of exercises | 15:26 |
| * gothicmindfood thinks we should come out of NYC with a vision for what Barcelona is like for the SWG | 15:27 | |
| johnthetubaguy | so the way I see it, there are lots of different visions out there, but it turns out we are all following similar principles to work towards the disperate visions | 15:27 |
| amrith | #topic Discuss agenda for meeting in NYC (next Tuesday) | 15:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discuss agenda for meeting in NYC (next Tuesday) (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:27 | |
| amrith | ok, so let me ask the question this way | 15:27 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: sorry I'm pushing your agenda forward :) | 15:27 |
| ttx | vision / customers / principles we can work on in parallel. CODM, BLC, maybe not. | 15:27 |
| amrith | what is the #1 thing you think we should discuss in NYC? | 15:27 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: I would like a vision for what Barcelona is like for the SWG, so we can then prioritize our work effectively | 15:28 |
| amrith | yoru choices are 'who's the customer', 'principles', visioning, consensus, project wide goals | 15:28 |
| ttx | amrith: Ideally I'd like to get agreement on a principles proposal + answer at least one hard question | 15:28 |
| amrith | jroll, johnthetubaguy though you won't be in NYC, what do you think we should come out of NYC with? | 15:29 |
| ttx | project-wide goals I think we need to digest the release goals thing before we can propose anything else | 15:29 |
| ttx | consensus I think we need to wait until we know our vision / principles / customers | 15:29 |
| carolbarrett | my take on it: Who's the customer, principles | 15:29 |
| mordred | ttx, amrith: sorry I've not been able to finish that document - please feel free to take that over as makes sense | 15:29 |
| amrith | hi mordred | 15:29 |
| mordred | heya | 15:29 |
| amrith | np | 15:29 |
| ttx | so I'd say NYC = (principles AND (who's the customer OR visioning)) | 15:29 |
| amrith | so let me catch you up on the question at hand, of the things listed above, what do you think we should focus our time together in NYC on? | 15:30 |
| * jroll == gothicmindfood, I'd like to have goals for BCN so that we know what's most important to get done before that | 15:30 | |
| dhellmann | ttx: s/and/and maybe/ | 15:30 |
| jroll | and +1 for principles | 15:30 |
| ttx | mordred: cool thanks. Will give credit where due, awesome work you did there | 15:30 |
| mordred | ttx: thanks! and thanks to all of your for continuing the great work | 15:30 |
| ttx | dhellmann: short-circuit AND ? :) | 15:30 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: I just doubt our ability to get through both topics | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | given time constraints | 15:31 |
| * gothicmindfood is concerned we will dive down into these subjects without all agreeing on where we want to be for Barcelona | 15:31 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: ack, so idf principles is false you don't even evaluate the next expression :) | 15:31 |
| gothicmindfood | (we are the kings and queens of rabbit-holes) | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | ttx: but if it's true... | 15:31 |
| * dhellmann climbs out of the boolean logic rabbit hole he let ttx drag him down into | 15:32 | |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: of course we are | 15:32 |
| amrith | ok ppl ... focus | 15:32 |
| amrith | the question at hand is gothicmindfood's point that we should look to barcelona as a priority | 15:32 |
| gothicmindfood | let me just start out here... | 15:32 |
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| amrith | and ttx's that the principles are the #1 thing | 15:32 |
| gothicmindfood | "it's late October and the ocean breeze is drifting into Barcelona... " | 15:32 |
| amrith | I agree with both. | 15:33 |
| amrith | where do we want to be by barcelona, what things do we need to deliver by barcelona? | 15:33 |
| ttx | amrith: I also think that the principles are pretty close to being presentable to a wider audience, so would not require too much time | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | amrith : where's our charter? didn't we say we'd have recommendations for the tc by barcelona? | 15:33 |
| amrith | are there updates to the board? | 15:33 |
| gothicmindfood | "the SWG is at the OpenStack summit, and we've just finished three days of intensive work across many areas... here is what we got done" | 15:33 |
| amrith | exactly dhellmann | 15:33 |
| amrith | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/337895/ | 15:33 |
| amrith | the idea was that by yesterday we would provide a drft set of recommendations (missed) | 15:34 |
| amrith | and a concrete set by barcelona. | 15:34 |
| * dhellmann got his done | 15:34 | |
| amrith | so, what's the draft set that we could consider providing to the TC, say next week? | 15:35 |
| amrith | or the week after? | 15:35 |
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| amrith | looking back at what mordred and ttx said, I'll take the action to publish mordred's document as a review. | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | I guess the question in my mind is, since we have limited attendance next week, do we want to focus on something close to done and finish it or do we want to be trying to plan farther out (for barcelona or whatever) | 15:35 |
| ttx | By BCN I'd like to have principles approved, an answer to the customers question, started work on TC vision and a clear definition for the SWG mission (charter / vision) | 15:35 |
| amrith | #action amrith (with ttx and mordred's permission) take morderd's document and make it into a review. | 15:36 |
| amrith | dhellmann, I would like to focus on the short term deliverables in NYC. | 15:36 |
| ttx | amrith: it might be... easier if I turn it into something and present it to TC | 15:36 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: awesome! so 'principles approved' would mean that the TC votes into governance the principles of working inside the OpenStack community? | 15:36 |
| amrith | things that we can give to the TC and work towards BCN in paralle. | 15:36 |
| carolbarrett | ttx: Would your goal be to finalize the vision and SWG mission in BCN? | 15:36 |
| amrith | #undo | 15:36 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x7f5bbfc09c90> | 15:36 |
| amrith | #action ttx take morderd's document and make it into a review. | 15:36 |
| gothicmindfood | and - what does a start of a vision look like? | 15:37 |
| ttx | since mordred and myself have been the source for principles so far, feels like we are documenting, rather than inventing | 15:37 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: I think right now focusing on barcelona will help us understand what we *can* get done in the next few weeks | 15:37 |
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| ttx | which should make passing the change easier | 15:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: thats a good distinction to make | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ++ | 15:38 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: ++ | 15:38 |
| amrith | ttx ++ | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | gothicmindfood : feels a bit like planning to plan :-/ | 15:38 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: I know, but sometimes that's what gets us in alignment and understanding | 15:38 |
| gothicmindfood | :/ | 15:38 |
| ttx | amrith: shoudl we wait until next week so we have the opportunity to discuss the principles in the NYC meeting before we push the proposal ? | 15:38 |
| amrith | ttx, I think it would make sense to get mordred's document out befor enext week | 15:39 |
| amrith | as that is quite close | 15:39 |
| gothicmindfood | would we like the SWG to have a vision to present to the TC for *itself* by Barcelona? | 15:39 |
| ttx | I'm fine pushing it mostly as-is, but then we won't need to discuss it next week as much | 15:39 |
| amrith | that's my feeling | 15:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | feels like by next week, ideally we are all +1 on that proposal? | 15:39 |
| amrith | I believe taht his writeup is pretty close. | 15:40 |
| amrith | that would allow us to focus NYC conversation on any comments that may arise, as well as the other things on the list | 15:40 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: I'm with you, I think it's pretty much there and ready to be fielded to the wider group | 15:40 |
| ttx | please push your comments to that etherpad asap if you still have concerns, before I turn it into something reviewable | 15:40 |
| dhellmann | gothicmindfood : it would be good to at least start that conversation by then | 15:40 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: so, I'd personally like to see us finalize one during the summit | 15:40 |
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| gothicmindfood | (with an eye towards a 1-2 year cadence) | 15:41 |
| * nikhil sneaks in | 15:41 | |
| dhellmann | gothicmindfood : good goal. it'll be a challenge. | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | sorry, I lots track, whats got a 1-2 year cadence? | 15:42 |
| carolbarrett | gothicmindfood: I agree with you, think this needs to get done then | 15:42 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: a vision for the SWG | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, sorry, I see now | 15:42 |
| dhellmann | gothicmindfood : swg or tc? | 15:42 |
| dhellmann | I thought you were saying tc | 15:42 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: nope, I mean SWG | 15:42 |
| dhellmann | ah | 15:42 |
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| amrith | ok, so back to our regularly scheduled programming then; the meeting in NYC will focus on feedback to principles, who's our customer, vision to BCN, consensus, ... in that order | 15:43 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: I'd *love* to see a vision for the TC/OpenStack by then, but honestly? I think that we should, as the SWG, take it upon ourselves to practice it, and convince them of its power | 15:43 |
| gothicmindfood | :) | 15:43 |
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| amrith | does that meet with general approval? | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | and the TC vision is different to the OpenStack vision, or is that the same thing? | 15:43 |
| dhellmann | gothicmindfood : maybe you can lead that during the swg meeting week-after-next | 15:43 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: should I start on an SWG vision for Barcelona for our meeting in NYC? | 15:44 |
| dhellmann | amrith : you need to put context around the vision bit, vision for whom | 15:44 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: yeah, I was thinking I'd start an etherpad for the longer term vision and basically do what mordred did for the principles stuff | 15:44 |
| dhellmann | similarly for customer | 15:44 |
| amrith | ok, so back to our regularly scheduled programming then; the meeting in NYC will focus on feedback to principles, who's the TC's customer, what would SWG like to present at/by BCN, consensus model for TC, ... in that order | 15:44 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: you can have a vision for the TC as a group and a vision for what OpenStack should become, those would be different items | 15:44 |
| amrith | dhellmann, rephrased above ^^ | 15:44 |
| dhellmann | when we say "who is our customer" whose "our" do we mean? | 15:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: yeah, I was thinking the same thing | 15:45 |
| dhellmann | amrith : k | 15:45 |
| ttx | dhellmann: my understanding is "TCs" | 15:45 |
| amrith | REPHRASED: the meeting in NYC will focus on feedback to principles, who's the TC's customer, what would SWG like to present at/by BCN, consensus model for TC, ... in that order | 15:45 |
| ttx | although we'll need to define customers for the SWG too I guess :) | 15:45 |
| dhellmann | ttx: that should be easier, since we're declared as trying to give advice to the tc | 15:46 |
| amrith | to gothicmindfood's question, should you start on a vision for barcelona, I don't think it'd hurt | 15:46 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: word. | 15:46 |
| amrith | I believe we would be well advised to get to that in NYC as it will inform our recommendations to the TC by Barcelona. | 15:46 |
| ttx | amrith: I still think we shouldn't talk consensus before solving harder items like vision, but then I don't expect we'll get to that topic in next week meeting anyway, so +1 | 15:46 |
| amrith | something that our charter said we'd do. | 15:46 |
| gothicmindfood | #action gothicmindfood to start on SWG vision for Barcelona Summit | 15:46 |
| amrith | REPHRASED[2]: the meeting in NYC will focus on feedback to principles, who's the TC's customer, what would SWG like to present at/by BCN, vision for the TC, ... in that order | 15:47 |
| amrith | ttx, ok ^^ | 15:47 |
| nikhil | is the nyc mtg overlaping with openstack east? in that case, can someone take mtg notes and post to ML? | 15:47 |
| dhellmann | nikhil : yes, it's tuesday evening | 15:47 |
| amrith | the meeting is tentatively Tuesday evening | 15:47 |
| amrith | I will blast the ML with that after this IRC meeting gets done. | 15:48 |
| nikhil | awesome, if there is hangout I would love to join | 15:48 |
| amrith | nikhil, it will be in a restaurant. unlikely | 15:48 |
| nikhil | amrith ++ on ML | 15:48 |
| nikhil | gotcha | 15:48 |
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| ttx | amrith: ++ | 15:49 |
| amrith | OK, draft agenda for NYC is as REPHRASED[2] above. | 15:50 |
| amrith | so, shall we move on, we have one more item to discuss ... | 15:50 |
| dhellmann | amrith : ++ | 15:50 |
| amrith | #topic Discuss any documents that are available for review | 15:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discuss any documents that are available for review (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:50 | |
| amrith | dhellmann, how can we help | 15:51 |
| * gothicmindfood feels like amrith is herding hyperactive hummingbirds instead of cats rn | 15:51 | |
| amrith | with these reviews, they seem to be taking their time. | 15:51 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: yes! do we need anything else done before today's TC meeting on those reviews? | 15:51 |
| dhellmann | amrith : I would appreciate it if folks would review the ML thread on the goals thing, and help reply to any unanswered concerns. I haven't seen email today, so maybe we're all caught up. | 15:51 |
| amrith | dhellmann, I will re-read. I did see some email this morning from sdague but have not yet read it. | 15:52 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I'll push for adoption today, summarizing concerns and all | 15:52 |
| dhellmann | ttx also suggested possibly rewording the bit about priorities, which I don't necessarily agree with, but if others want to propose some alternate wording that might help | 15:52 |
| ttx | dhellmann: let's push for merging this as initial version and discuss adaptations as subsequent changes | 15:52 |
| dhellmann | ttx: wfm | 15:52 |
| amrith | dhellmann, ttx, I read the latest version and I think merging now makes sense | 15:52 |
| amrith | with the idea that we can fine tune later. | 15:52 |
| amrith | ttx just said the same thing (only better). | 15:53 |
| amrith | ok, will review email and the three reviews one more time. | 15:53 |
| amrith | and soon we'll have another doc to review as well. | 15:53 |
| amrith | ttx, what plan for tc meeting next week? | 15:53 |
| amrith | will it be canceled? | 15:53 |
| ttx | I'll propose to skip it yes | 15:54 |
| amrith | when do you think the principles document will come up for tc consideration? | 15:54 |
| amrith | two weeks from now? earliest? | 15:54 |
| ttx | the week after | 15:54 |
| amrith | ok, thx | 15:54 |
| ttx | yes | 15:54 |
| amrith | nothing further on item 3 on agenda ... | 15:54 |
| amrith | #topic Open Discussion | 15:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:54 | |
| nikhil | amrith: I created the courtesy ping list here: | 15:55 |
| nikhil | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SWGMeeting#Courtesy_Ping_List | 15:55 |
| gothicmindfood | wow, for such a sparse agenda, we had an action-packed meeting | 15:55 |
| amrith | thx nikhil | 15:55 |
| * amrith looks around the virtual room ... anyone have anything they'd like to throw out for discussion? | 15:56 | |
| * gothicmindfood will incorporate tapas into the Barcelona vision, everyone, don't worry | 15:56 | |
| * jroll is happy with the outcome of this meeting, and sad he got dragged into another meeting halfway through, will need to adjust calendar | 15:56 | |
| carolbarrett | nothing from me | 15:56 |
| ttx | nothing | 15:56 |
| nikhil | I have one: | 15:56 |
| jroll | gothicmindfood: anyone that hasn't already incorporated tapas into their personal barcelona vision is doing something wrong :D | 15:57 |
| * amrith waits for nikhil | 15:57 | |
| nikhil | How do we encourage the individual teams/projects to document a vision? Is that supposed to be inspired from TC/OpenStack/SWG vision or are we doing this adhoc? (do we expect divergence and possible conflicts?) | 15:57 |
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| gothicmindfood | nikhil: I think the first step has to come from us, with ours, tbh | 15:58 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: and then from the TC/theirs | 15:58 |
| amrith | sounds like topic for a longer discussion to me. | 15:58 |
| nikhil | gothicmindfood: assuming in this context ours==SWG ? | 15:58 |
| dhellmann | yes, this is one of those things that's going to have to spread by example, I think | 15:58 |
| amrith | #info next meeting in two weeks, if you have ideas for agenda, please update the wiki | 15:58 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: true! maybe we can throw a big chunk of our next meeting discussing visioning? | 15:58 |
| * gothicmindfood high-fives amrith | 15:59 | |
| gothicmindfood | (thanks!) | 15:59 |
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| nikhil | gothicmindfood: was the vision first part of the 3 step dance that zingermann's (hope to get the spell right) suggest? | 15:59 |
| amrith | we're getting close to being out of time | 16:00 |
| jroll | thanks for hosting, amrith :) | 16:00 |
| amrith | suggest we move to #openstack-swg | 16:00 |
| nikhil | oops, thanks | 16:00 |
| amrith | Thanks to all who attended | 16:00 |
| amrith | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 16 16:00:21 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swg/2016/swg.2016-08-16-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swg/2016/swg.2016-08-16-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| gothicmindfood | thanks amrith :) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swg/2016/swg.2016-08-16-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
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| jroll | #startmeeting ironic-api-v2 | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 16 18:01:37 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jroll. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ironic-api-v2)" | 18:01 | |
| jroll | anyone around? | 18:01 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ironic_api_v2' | 18:01 |
| cdent | i am, but don't have anything to say or add | 18:02 |
| jroll | I don't have anything new this week either | 18:02 |
| cdent | I'M JUST TRYING TO BE RESPONSIBLE | 18:02 |
| rpioso | likewise | 18:02 |
| jroll | rloo isn't here, devananda or mat128 you around? | 18:02 |
| cdent | also the gate is really slow | 18:02 |
| jroll | cdent: and for that I applaud you! | 18:02 |
| mat128 | yes I'm here | 18:02 |
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| jroll | (the responsibility, not the gate) | 18:02 |
| mat128 | just noticed a conflicting meeting right now | 18:02 |
| jroll | no worries | 18:03 |
| mat128 | will listen to the downstream one but will try to read here once in a while :) | 18:03 |
| cdent | whenver the gate is slow I have this sinking feeling of dread that I did it. | 18:03 |
| jroll | heh | 18:04 |
| jroll | ok let's just loop back next week if nobody has anything | 18:04 |
| jroll | thanks for popping in :) | 18:04 |
| jroll | #endmeeting | 18:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:04 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 16 18:04:43 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:04 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic_api_v2/2016/ironic_api_v2.2016-08-16-18.01.html | 18:04 |
| mat128 | oh wow | 18:04 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic_api_v2/2016/ironic_api_v2.2016-08-16-18.01.txt | 18:04 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic_api_v2/2016/ironic_api_v2.2016-08-16-18.01.log.html | 18:04 |
| mat128 | that was fast | 18:04 |
| mat128 | :) | 18:04 |
| jroll | mat128: lol | 18:04 |
| jroll | I aim to please! | 18:04 |
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