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| tdurakov | #startmeeting Nova Live Migration | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 30 14:00:25 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is tdurakov. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_live_migration' | 14:00 |
| tdurakov | hello everyone, agenda for the meeting: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NovaLiveMigration | 14:00 |
| pkoniszewski | o/ | 14:00 |
| luis5tb | o/ | 14:01 |
| mdbooth | o/ | 14:01 |
| tdurakov | let's wait a minute and then start | 14:01 |
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| tdurakov | so | 14:02 |
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| tdurakov | #topic newton-3 feature freeze | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "newton-3 feature freeze (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:03 | |
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| tdurakov | do we have any patches except imagebackend, that requires attention and need review? | 14:03 |
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| tdurakov | imagebackend is the next topic) | 14:04 |
| * kashyap waves | 14:04 | |
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| tdurakov | as I understand no, let's move on then | 14:05 |
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| johnthetubaguy | there was a stuck one the other day, let me take a quick peak | 14:05 |
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| tdurakov | johnthetubaguy: sure | 14:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | oh, that is the imagecache one | 14:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | carry on... :) | 14:05 |
| tdurakov | #topic image backend | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "image backend (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:06 | |
| tdurakov | mdbooth: anything except review request? | 14:06 |
| mdbooth | So I don't think this is going to get there | 14:07 |
| mdbooth | Just reviews | 14:07 |
| mdbooth | johnthetubaguy: Which is the imagecache one? | 14:07 |
| mdbooth | Is that the 1 with -1 from jay and +2 from somebody else? | 14:07 |
| tdurakov | #action anyone to review imagebackend topic | 14:07 |
| tdurakov | s/everyone | 14:08 |
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| mdbooth | It's really core review it needs at this point, tbh | 14:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think the problem is we need that conflict resolving | 14:08 |
| mdbooth | johnthetubaguy: Got a link? | 14:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/334956 | 14:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | I mean the -1 from jay | 14:08 |
| mdbooth | Ah, right. | 14:08 |
| mdbooth | TBH, that mini-series isn't that important. | 14:09 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I think I pinged some image cache folks to take a peak, but they have not had chance | 14:09 |
| mdbooth | I think it's correct, but I haven't made a fuss about it because it's not a dependency of anything. | 14:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, so maybe I am just getting distracted from the meat by that bit | 14:09 |
| mdbooth | It was just a cleanup I did because I had my head in that code for other reasons and noticed that it was pretty obtuse. | 14:09 |
| mdbooth | And I fixed it. | 14:09 |
| tdurakov | mdbooth: tried to review this one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/335966/16 tbh it's pretty complicated, tend to agree with dansmith about nested mocks | 14:10 |
| mdbooth | Oh, I missed his comments. | 14:10 |
| mdbooth | I actually wish he'd left a -1 :/ | 14:11 |
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| tdurakov | mdbooth: also related to your work https://review.openstack.org/#/c/355415/ | 14:12 |
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| tdurakov | I haven't asked Jens Rosenboom yet why he decided to leave this patch, as for me it's ok, and I think it could be merged before your refactoring | 14:13 |
| mdbooth | I've already reviewed that. I was +1 iirc. | 14:13 |
| mdbooth | Right. The refactor was the reason I was less fussed than mriedem, I think. | 14:14 |
| mdbooth | But it's backportable. | 14:14 |
| tdurakov | I'l ask Jens first, and if he don't mind update commit message | 14:14 |
| tdurakov | ok, anything else? | 14:16 |
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| mriedem | so on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/355415/ | 14:16 |
| mriedem | is anyone going to update it? | 14:16 |
| mriedem | tdurakov: are you going to add a unit test? | 14:16 |
| tdurakov | mriedem: yes | 14:17 |
| mriedem | ok | 14:17 |
| tdurakov | let's move on | 14:17 |
| tdurakov | #topic CI | 14:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "CI (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:17 | |
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| tdurakov | live-migration job is pretty stable | 14:17 |
| tdurakov | but | 14:17 |
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| tdurakov | I've spend some time trying to recheck/gather stats for nfs too | 14:18 |
| tdurakov | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/329466/ | 14:18 |
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| tdurakov | so it looks like it's become unstable when nfs is enabled | 14:18 |
| tdurakov | at the same time it's not reproducible on my local env | 14:19 |
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| tdurakov | I want to spend more time on that, or maybe consider enable ceph first | 14:20 |
| mriedem | tdurakov: is it failing in any new way? | 14:20 |
| mriedem | we could check just that change in logstash | 14:20 |
| mriedem | i would agree with probably doing ceph before NFS | 14:21 |
| mriedem | we don't test NFS anywhere else in upstream CI | 14:21 |
| tdurakov | mriedem: yes, something new | 14:21 |
| tdurakov | mriedem: acked, will try to do that | 14:21 |
| tdurakov | let's move on | 14:22 |
| tdurakov | #topic networking | 14:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "networking (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:22 | |
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| tdurakov | any updates on post-copy issues | 14:23 |
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| kashyap | tdurakov: Is there a specific bug you're referring to? | 14:23 |
| kashyap | I think this - https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1605016 | 14:25 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1605016 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Post copy live migration interrupts network connectivity" [High,In progress] | 14:25 |
| tdurakov | kashyap: | 14:25 |
| tdurakov | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.searchtext=post+copy&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field. | 14:25 |
| tdurakov | omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch=&field.has_no_package= | 14:25 |
| tdurakov | ops | 14:25 |
| tdurakov | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1605016 | 14:25 |
| tdurakov | yeah, this one | 14:25 |
| tdurakov | moved it to confirmed, as there is no assignee | 14:26 |
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| kashyap | tdurakov: Dave Gilbert mentioned that Luis (not sure of last name) was working on something (a spec) to address it? | 14:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | hmm, I thought someone was working on that at one point | 14:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, I see they got unassigned | 14:27 |
| luis5tb | I worked on the post-copy patch, but not on the fix | 14:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | there is a wider thing in Neutron, tracking both port bindings (source and destination) | 14:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | but we could fix it sooner | 14:28 |
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| luis5tb | I see it said it is in progress, did someone else started working on it? | 14:28 |
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| johnthetubaguy | comments say they have stopped working on it | 14:28 |
| tdurakov | luis5tb: I've status already | 14:28 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I think its all about when we updating the port binding to point at the destination host, we do that today in post-live-migrate, we could do that sooner for post copy, to reduce the downtime | 14:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | the proper fix is further away (tracking both source and destination port bindings) | 14:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am hoping to get OSIC folks to help work on the nova bits for that next cycle, at least potentially | 14:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | I added notes on a potential quick fix in the bug | 14:30 |
| tdurakov | johnthetubaguy: thank you | 14:31 |
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| tdurakov | any update on setup_network_on_hosts for neutron api? | 14:31 |
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| tdurakov | so, let's move on | 14:33 |
| tdurakov | #topic open discussion | 14:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:33 | |
| johnthetubaguy | there were comments on that patch | 14:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | I don't remember seeing if there were resolved now | 14:34 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ah, it seems https://review.openstack.org/#/c/275073/ is ready to review again | 14:35 |
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| tdurakov | yep, reviews are welcome | 14:37 |
| tdurakov | anything else? | 14:37 |
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| tdurakov | thanks everyone | 14:37 |
| tdurakov | #endmeeting | 14:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:38 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 30 14:38:04 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:38 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-08-30-14.00.html | 14:38 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-08-30-14.00.txt | 14:38 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-08-30-14.00.log.html | 14:38 |
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| amrith | #startmeeting openstack-swg | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Aug 30 15:00:04 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is amrith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 15:00 | |
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| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_swg' | 15:00 |
| amrith | #chair dhellmann, gothicmindfood, ttx | 15:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: amrith dhellmann gothicmindfood ttx | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 15:00 |
| gothicmindfood | o/ | 15:00 |
| amrith | courtesy ping for dhellmann, gothicmindfood, ttx, jroll, johnthetubaguy, sdague, mordred, carolbarrett, nikhil, mugsie, thingie | 15:00 |
| amrith | hello all | 15:00 |
| jroll | \o | 15:00 |
| gothicmindfood | ohhai | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | #link our agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SWGMeeting | 15:00 |
| nikhil | o/ | 15:00 |
| * jroll may or may not be in another meeting now and distracted | 15:01 | |
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| amrith | dhellmann beat me to it! | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | co-chairing ftw | 15:01 |
| amrith | let's wait a minute for folks to come in | 15:01 |
| amrith | #topic Review Action items from last week | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review Action items from last week (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 15:01 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: pff, anyone can #link | 15:01 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: but dhellmann #links like a #pro | 15:02 |
| * dhellmann deflates | 15:02 | |
| * dhellmann puffs up | 15:02 | |
| * amrith reads action items from last meeting | 15:02 | |
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| shamail | o/ | 15:02 |
| amrith | ok, so the ping script worked | 15:02 |
| gothicmindfood | I think I did my two | 15:02 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood did her updates | 15:02 |
| amrith | ttx pushed up a review (I'm searching for a link) | 15:03 |
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| dhellmann | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/357260/ | 15:03 |
| amrith | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/357260/ | 15:03 |
| amrith | damn | 15:04 |
| amrith | he beat me to it again | 15:04 |
| amrith | :) | 15:04 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood updated a vision for SWG write up | 15:04 |
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| amrith | sorry, gothicmindfood update on vision for SWG write up | 15:04 |
| CarolBarrett | Sorry I'm late | 15:04 |
| gothicmindfood | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BarcelonaSWGMagic | 15:05 |
| amrith | thx gothicmindfood | 15:05 |
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| CarolBarrett | +1 | 15:05 |
| amrith | sounds like we've made good progress on the things we said we'd | 15:05 |
| amrith | do by this meeting | 15:05 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood, do you want to update on the write-up | 15:05 |
| amrith | since not everyone may have had a chance to read it | 15:06 |
| CarolBarrett | I'm looking over ttx's comments on the vision. I think having both commitment and approaches is good | 15:06 |
| amrith | CarolBarrett left comments I can see | 15:06 |
| amrith | I have to review ttx's review in more detail. only had a chance to look at it briefly | 15:06 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: on the vision for Barcelona? | 15:06 |
| alexismonville | hello | 15:06 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood, yes | 15:06 |
| dhellmann | hi, alexismonville ! | 15:06 |
| gothicmindfood | context wise - I just thought a) we needed to practice visioning and the best way to do that was with small ones | 15:07 |
| ttx | just saying that 10-&5 people committing to join might be a bit too much :) | 15:07 |
| gothicmindfood | and b) it might help us figure out what sorts of work is most important between now and end of October to move us along | 15:07 |
| ttx | And by that I meant 10-15 | 15:07 |
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| gothicmindfood | ttx: yeah, I just threw in a # to start a conversation around that | 15:07 |
| shamail | When you say “our panel on the SWG working group”… where was this panel? | 15:07 |
| gothicmindfood | not sure if we need to be # specific, but I like metrics | 15:07 |
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| gothicmindfood | shamail: it's a panel that just got accepted to the summit | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | I share some of ttx's concern with the proposed changes. I'm having trouble seeing that as a realistic outcome. I can see that much excitement, but I'd be more comfortable with expecting a smaller # of committments | 15:08 |
| CarolBarrett | shamail: the panel is planned for Barcelona and this is what we want to be able to say after it happens | 15:08 |
| shamail | Got it, it read as if the panel had happened. | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | shamail : it hasn't happened yet, this is for barcelona | 15:08 |
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| shamail | thanks CarolBarrett | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | gothicmindfood is channelling her future self | 15:08 |
| shamail | :D | 15:08 |
| gothicmindfood | shamail: that's actually good! because that's how a vision should read! :) | 15:08 |
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| gothicmindfood | to recap: a vision is basically a description of a destination - complete with feelings and tastes and sounds and sights and things that are happening. | 15:09 |
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| amrith | I see gothicmindfood's challenge in trying to put a measurable outcome on the outcome. 10-15 may be high, fine, let's call it 5. But is "willing new and interested participants" the correct measure? | 15:10 |
| ttx | "More than 5" ? | 15:10 |
| ttx | "10-15 approached us and more than 5 committed ?" | 15:10 |
| * gothicmindfood is cool with whatever we land on | 15:10 | |
| dhellmann | I'd be fine just saying "several" or "a few" instead of 5 | 15:10 |
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| ttx | I like vision, but 10-15 commitments sounds like vision under heavy drugs | 15:11 |
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| dhellmann | heh, it's ambitious, for sure. | 15:11 |
| * gothicmindfood swears she was on no drugs when she wrote this | 15:11 | |
| CarolBarrett | I think having a sign of interest (10-15 approach) and participation (5 commit to join team) is a good outcome | 15:11 |
| gothicmindfood | (except maybe lack of sleep) | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | CarolBarrett : ++ | 15:12 |
| shamail | Should we also want to incorporate the desire to create a curriculm for educating people on steward leadership and make an item such as “understand the approaches that resonates when explaining steward leadership and develop them into a repeatable education process”? | 15:12 |
| shamail | resonated* | 15:12 |
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| dhellmann | how's the rewording I just did? | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | CarolBarrett : I like the addition of understaing steward leadership | 15:13 |
| shamail | thanks for the link gothicmindfood | 15:13 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: I like it! | 15:13 |
| alexismonville | could we add something about "understanding the stewardwhip concetp" and being able to explain it? | 15:14 |
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| dhellmann | we need to be careful how we balance how much we're describing the vision for we will have done and what what other people will be doing | 15:15 |
| dhellmann | *for what we will have done | 15:15 |
| CarolBarrett | good point | 15:15 |
| amrith | alexismonville, I added a whole sentence before that describing some of the concepts that we would like to address at the panel. | 15:16 |
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| amrith | does that make sense to all? | 15:16 |
| alexismonville | amrith: yes :) | 15:16 |
| amrith | thx alexismonville | 15:16 |
| CarolBarrett | I'm good with the vision | 15:17 |
| shamail | +1 | 15:17 |
| gothicmindfood | so - from vision sprouts action, or something, right? :) | 15:17 |
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| gothicmindfood | do we want to get consensus on this particular vision, or have a bit more time to spell it out/add to it over the next week or so? | 15:18 |
| amrith | so, can we set a goal that we all review and put our comments on the etherpad before the end of the week (or gothicmindfood's vacation ends) :) | 15:18 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: that'd be awesome | 15:18 |
| * gothicmindfood would like to get this to the point where we all feel we have our own actionable items from it for Barcelona | 15:19 | |
| amrith | #action everyone to continue to review https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BarcelonaSWGMagic with a goal of having comments and updates in by end of this week | 15:19 |
| amrith | CarolBarrett, ttx, dhellmann, nikhil, shamail, alexismonville ... is that OK? | 15:19 |
| nikhil | I have a generic comment on the vision | 15:20 |
| amrith | I hope I've got everyone | 15:20 |
| * gothicmindfood feels that "good vibes" needs to be a phrase in every vision from now on | 15:20 | |
| shamail | amrith: that works | 15:20 |
| gothicmindfood | ;) | 15:20 |
| dhellmann | amrith : ++ | 15:20 |
| amrith | jroll ^^ | 15:20 |
| nikhil | gothicmindfood: (first) thanks for putting that together | 15:20 |
| ttx | +1 | 15:20 |
| alexismonville | amrith: ++ | 15:20 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: yw! | 15:20 |
| amrith | ok, thx. nikhil your comment ... | 15:20 |
| nikhil | gothicmindfood: I find the word "platform" mission and may be we'd include that this is "not" a process | 15:20 |
| nikhil | oops | 15:21 |
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| nikhil | s/mission/missing *** | 15:21 |
| nikhil | ha | 15:21 |
| * nikhil blames lack of sleep | 15:21 | |
| dhellmann | nikhil : how do you see "platform" fitting in here? there are lots of interpretations of that word... | 15:21 |
| * nikhil trying to think of phrasing it | 15:21 | |
| nikhil | dhellmann: lemme try updaing the nice version w/o divergence | 15:22 |
| amrith | nikhil, could you add proposed language into the etherpad. I'm having a hard time visualizing how I'd use the word platform in this context | 15:22 |
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| CarolBarrett | I can see referring to SL as a methodology or a framework for how the TC and Technical Community operate | 15:23 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: there was definitely some interesting discussion at dinner around some of this, if I gather what you're saying... | 15:23 |
| gothicmindfood | one of the things that I think we need to clarify is that the SWG is *not*, as far as I understand it, implementing any change or process for OpenStack | 15:23 |
| gothicmindfood | change/process/governance is a TC matter | 15:24 |
| gothicmindfood | the way I kind of put it at dinner last week was that I viewed us as sort of a 'leadership coach' for OpenStack, with the TC being a customer | 15:24 |
| amrith | ok, quick time check! 25m in ... | 15:24 |
| amrith | do we want to continue to discuss this, or let people update it with comments. We can come back to this later if we have time. | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | nikhil : it sounds like you have some specific concerns about rules that deserve more discussion | 15:25 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: I'm open - I'm also touching on our summary of last week's meeting, so, either way ;) | 15:25 |
| * amrith waits | 15:25 | |
| CarolBarrett | What's the next agenda item? | 15:26 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: dyou want to take this offline/tinker with the vision a bit and we'll talk later? | 15:26 |
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| amrith | #agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SWGMeeting | 15:26 |
| nikhil | gothicmindfood: surely | 15:26 |
| nikhil | amrith: I am okay to continue offline | 15:26 |
| amrith | sounds good | 15:26 |
| amrith | #action nikhil to tinker with the vision and update etherpad | 15:26 |
| amrith | #topic Take a pass through the 'short list' and update items as required | 15:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Take a pass through the 'short list' and update items as required (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 15:27 | |
| amrith | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/swg-short-list-deliverables | 15:27 |
| amrith | ttx has pushed up https://review.openstack.org/#/c/357260/ | 15:27 |
| amrith | #action everyone to review this https://review.openstack.org/#/c/357260/ and update with comments | 15:27 |
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| amrith | so a quick recap | 15:28 |
| amrith | at the last meeting(s) we boiled the shortlist | 15:28 |
| amrith | and came up with some specific action areas | 15:28 |
| amrith | (a) openstack principles | 15:28 |
| amrith | (b) community wide goals for a release (themes) | 15:28 |
| amrith | (c) recommendation that tc adopt a vision | 15:28 |
| amrith | (d) improve communication | 15:28 |
| amrith | There is a longer list of things below that | 15:29 |
| amrith | so, ttx, anything you want to add re: (a) | 15:29 |
| amrith | hearing nothing ... | 15:30 |
| amrith | dhellmann, anything you want to add re: (b) | 15:30 |
| amrith | netsplit? | 15:30 |
| * ttx thinks | 15:31 | |
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| amrith | no netsplit | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | the discussions for the goals are ongoing | 15:31 |
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| dhellmann | the py35 question will come up at today's tc meeting | 15:31 |
| ttx | discussion on principles at TC are scheduled for next week's TC | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | there were some refinements on wording up, too, let me find those | 15:31 |
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| dhellmann | #link approval policy for goal updates https://review.openstack.org/356699 | 15:31 |
| ttx | the goal is to come up with a draft we are happy with ASAP so that we can give those some air time on the ML | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | #link refining the goal template https://review.openstack.org/356674 | 15:32 |
| ttx | probably early next week after the TC meeting | 15:32 |
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| ttx | then let the megathread unfold and vote on the week after next | 15:32 |
| amrith | dhellmann, ttx, is there any specific ask to this group in this unfolding process? | 15:33 |
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| ttx | Not really. From the discussion last week, we expect two principles to be more contentious | 15:33 |
| ttx | the "One OpenStack" principle and the "OpenStack first" principle | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | amrith : not really, unless folks have opinions on those patches | 15:34 |
| amrith | thx ttx, dhellmann | 15:34 |
| amrith | anything further on the etehrpad | 15:34 |
| amrith | s/etehrpad/etherpad/ | 15:34 |
| amrith | ... moving on ... | 15:35 |
| amrith | #topic Quick recap of NYC meeting for those who weren't there | 15:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Quick recap of NYC meeting for those who weren't there (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 15:36 | |
| amrith | so ... several of us were at @openstackeast last week | 15:36 |
| amrith | and had a chance to chat about swg | 15:36 |
| amrith | over dinner on Tuesday | 15:36 |
| dhellmann | and eat delicious turkish food, thanks, amrith! | 15:36 |
| amrith | (or was it wednesday) | 15:36 |
| gothicmindfood | yeah, amrith picked a good restaurant! P) | 15:36 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: it was Tuesday | 15:36 |
| amrith | someone who shall remain nameless is now barred from picking restaurants | 15:36 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: it was good, and we figured out the wine situation, no problem. | 15:37 |
| ttx | amrith: we probably ended up with better wine than if they had a wine list :) | 15:37 |
| amrith | there is that | 15:37 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: ++ | 15:37 |
| gothicmindfood | for awhile, there were actually two separate convos going on at the table | 15:37 |
| amrith | so much of the conversation centered on what we'd like to see coming out of barcelona | 15:37 |
| amrith | and our panel discussion | 15:37 |
| * gothicmindfood was only really involved in one | 15:37 | |
| amrith | which was, by the way, accepted | 15:38 |
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| gothicmindfood | yay! #link https://www.openstack.org/summit/barcelona-2016/summit-schedule/events/15243/stewardship-bringing-more-leadership-and-vision-to-openstack | 15:38 |
| amrith | one of the outcomes was the vision document that gothicmindfood put together | 15:38 |
| amrith | we had a little bit of discussion about who our customers were; where "our" was {swg, tc, openstack} | 15:39 |
| gothicmindfood | ah - yes, our own 'servant leadership' inverted triangle discussion | 15:39 |
| amrith | we talked about the inverted triangle and who the TC served, and how | 15:39 |
| amrith | we talked about some feedback that I'd received when I asked people about our panel. the question I asked was this "if you went to this panel, what would you like to get out of it" | 15:40 |
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| amrith | I'd used some of that feedback to start thinking about what the panel should be | 15:40 |
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| amrith | so, without biasing this conversation, let me ask those who weren't there to also think of that question | 15:41 |
| amrith | and say what they'd like to get out of the panel | 15:41 |
| amrith | either now or in email later (or irc on #openstack-swg) | 15:41 |
| CarolBarrett | amrith: is there an etherpad for this? | 15:41 |
| amrith | CarolBarrett, there is not (at this point) | 15:41 |
| CarolBarrett | OK - do you want to start one? | 15:42 |
| gothicmindfood | CarolBarrett: it's sort of the barcelona vision, in a way, but amrith may also want to hvae his own for reference as he moderates | 15:42 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: if you do start one, can we cross-link it with the vision? | 15:42 |
| CarolBarrett | I'm interested in the view of who the TC's customers are and what the inverted pyramid looks like | 15:42 |
| amrith | gothicmindfood, why not have it at the bottom of the existing etherpad? do we need another? | 15:42 |
| alexismonville | amrith: I think it is the vision | 15:42 |
| nikhil | +1 to etherpad that can be used for the summit to engage audience too | 15:42 |
| amrith | or in the etherpad | 15:42 |
| CarolBarrett | We could start to outline the panel session in the etherpad with the vision of the outcome | 15:43 |
| amrith | as a list of things that people would like to get out of the session that I started writing up top | 15:43 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: I'm fine with splitting current one up | 15:43 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: it is just about SWGMagic, after all ;) | 15:43 |
| * nikhil may have opinions against the inverted pyramid | 15:43 | |
| nikhil | (and suggestions accordingly) | 15:43 |
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| amrith | ... others ... what did we do at dinner? | 15:44 |
| CarolBarrett | nikhil: I expect others will too | 15:44 |
| * nikhil nods | 15:44 | |
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| amrith | ... and if no one else has anything to add, ... nikhil added an item to the agenda | 15:45 |
| amrith | so I'd like to move to that | 15:45 |
| nikhil | \o/ | 15:45 |
| amrith | #topic Documenting vision: when, where, who? | 15:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Documenting vision: when, where, who? (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 15:46 | |
| amrith | nikhil, you're up! | 15:46 |
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| nikhil | I just have those 3 questions to being with | 15:46 |
| * nikhil is sure this will need more dinner table conversation | 15:46 | |
| nikhil | to log them here: | 15:46 |
| nikhil | #info Should we have a vision statement for OpenStack/TC/SWG first, followed by individual teams? | 15:46 |
| nikhil | #info Do project mission statement(s) overlap with vision statement(s)? | 15:47 |
| nikhil | #info What should be considered provenance of vision (statements)? | 15:47 |
| * nikhil is open to creating another etherpad but thinks will be too distracting | 15:47 | |
| nikhil | begin* | 15:47 |
| ttx | nikhil: IIRC during the dinner we talked a bit about that, and said vision for SWG should be first | 15:47 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: well, I also think it's something we have more control over, honestl | 15:48 |
| gothicmindfood | y | 15:48 |
| ttx | then for TC, then maybe for "OpenStack". It's easier to come up with a viusion in a closed group | 15:48 |
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| ttx | err, not closed... "limited" | 15:48 |
| gothicmindfood | and it's important for that whole group to understand what a vision is and actually want to have one an dsee its value | 15:48 |
| CarolBarrett | ttx: agree, having a defined scope helps to guide the mission development | 15:48 |
| gothicmindfood | so - also, here, it's important to remember: mission != vision | 15:49 |
| ttx | right, so it's not about imposing a vision on others, which makes me a bit careful about that "OpenStack vision" | 15:49 |
| ttx | we can set a mission, we can't force a vision | 15:49 |
| nikhil | :) | 15:49 |
| gothicmindfood | mission is a reason for a group to exist and a generic set of guiding principles included. vision is a very explicit statement of a desired point in time | 15:49 |
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| ttx | so let's do the work for the SWG first, then advise the TC to do one | 15:49 |
| ttx | (for the TC) | 15:49 |
| gothicmindfood | and also help the TC get there however they need help | 15:50 |
| alexismonville | so how could we make the OpenStack contributor to contribute to define the vision? | 15:50 |
| gothicmindfood | (which in part will be by showing them how well visioning works for us) | 15:50 |
| ttx | then we can rediscuss if the TC "having a vision for OpenStack" would be a great idea or not | 15:50 |
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| nikhil | I have some ideas on how | 15:50 |
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| gothicmindfood | alexismonville: I think that's a question for how the TC does theirs. Anyone who wants to come to the SWG can contribute to ours! | 15:50 |
| dhellmann | alexismonville : one of the things we discussed related to that was having some examples of how to create a vision in the first place, which is another reason we wanted to start "small" | 15:50 |
| alexismonville | great tahnk you | 15:51 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: is totally on point - starting small with things we can focus on, and showing the value of having them, I think that's the key to this whole spreading-vision-throughout-the-culture thing | 15:51 |
| nikhil | so.... some specific questions (more of a reason for me asking them here): | 15:52 |
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| * nikhil say for glance -- we've a missions statement | 15:52 | |
| nikhil | oops (auto edit) | 15:52 |
| nikhil | .. | 15:53 |
| nikhil | I wanted to start a vision for the project | 15:53 |
| nikhil | which will be more aling with "shared understanding" of the project in a point of time | 15:53 |
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| nikhil | align* | 15:53 |
| nikhil | basically, this will be a document that has the following listed :0 | 15:54 |
| nikhil | :- | 15:54 |
| nikhil | 1) Overall vision | 15:54 |
| ttx | feels like a vision belongs to a clear team of people, a "project" might be a bit too fuzzy to have a vision on | 15:54 |
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| nikhil | 2) Feature lists and their generic behavior | 15:54 |
| nikhil | ttx: lemme get to that (exactly why I asked it here) | 15:54 |
| nikhil | 3) list of the cores who share their opinion on what the code means to them | 15:55 |
| ttx | I mean, a PTL can have a vision for the project and share it. Or the Glance drivers can build a vision for Glance and share it. | 15:55 |
| nikhil | may be we can ask for representatives /liaisons from ops WG, PWG, etc. to indicate it | 15:55 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: or ideally, anyone contributing to a project contributes to its vision on some level | 15:55 |
| nikhil | == gothicmindfood | 15:55 |
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| nikhil | if a PTL shares, it's a silo | 15:56 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: so I think maybe there's a bit of separation that needs to occur here: vision is super different than a product definition or a mission or a strategy | 15:56 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: how do you achieve that ? Lots of one-patch contributors etc | 15:56 |
| nikhil | if we have a representative democracy we need superimposed visions | 15:56 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: vision is a description of a moment in time for a group of people | 15:56 |
| nikhil | ttx: for that, I think we need to elavate liaisons to core level in the influence and keep them involved in the visiion | 15:57 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: the same way we achieve code that finally lands? | 15:57 |
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| nikhil | (very much like ATC badge can be given even to those who have no patch to a prj) | 15:57 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: this is really hard to do/think about for a project before getting the TC onboard, tbh | 15:57 |
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| gothicmindfood | nikhil: there's so much dependency. | 15:57 |
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| nikhil | gothicmindfood: correct, and I think we need to keep that superimposed vision documented to establish deterministic behavior in the community | 15:58 |
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| gothicmindfood | nikhil: but I don't think it should stop you from doing a small vision re: some place you'd like the project to be in the future to try it out with people/practice writing it | 15:58 |
| amrith | I think nikhil may have a specific reason why he's asking the things he is asking (i.e. he has a specific problem he is trying to address) and I wonder what that is. | 15:58 |
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| CarolBarrett | time check - 2 mins left | 15:59 |
| nikhil | amrith: true and there are many issues / problems :) | 15:59 |
| nikhil | and think there may be some level of generalization that can be done/achieved | 15:59 |
| amrith | nikhil, it may help us understand your proposal better if we knew what those were. | 15:59 |
| nikhil | I wanted to start something for glance in the next week or so and share it... | 15:59 |
| amrith | and as CarolBarrett says, 1m left | 15:59 |
| nikhil | may be that's the best way | 15:59 |
| * gothicmindfood i sconfused | 15:59 | |
| * amrith puzzled | 15:59 | |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: feel free to ping me (though I'm on vacation this week) if you want to talk this out | 15:59 |
| gothicmindfood | i'd love to see an actual document or something describing the problem you're trying to solve | 16:00 |
| alexismonville | nikhil: I feel it needs to be connected to a higher level vision | 16:00 |
| amrith | we seem to have run out of time | 16:00 |
| nikhil | alexismonville: surely | 16:00 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith: yup | 16:00 |
| amrith | so let's go to #openstack-swg nd continue there | 16:00 |
| amrith | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Aug 30 16:00:46 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2016/openstack_swg.2016-08-30-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2016/openstack_swg.2016-08-30-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2016/openstack_swg.2016-08-30-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
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| gothicmindfood | thanks amrith ! | 16:01 |
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