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| PaulMurray | #startmeeting Nova Live Migration | 14:01 |
|---|---|---|
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| openstack | Meeting started Tue Sep 20 14:01:36 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is PaulMurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_live_migration' | 14:01 |
| mdbooth | o/ | 14:01 |
| PaulMurray | hi - sorry I'm a minute or two late | 14:02 |
| davidgiluk | o/ | 14:02 |
| ltomasbo | o/ | 14:02 |
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| PaulMurray | agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NovaLiveMigration | 14:02 |
| PaulMurray | actually there are no real items on the agenda, just headings | 14:02 |
| * kashyap waves | 14:03 | |
| PaulMurray | #topic CI | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "CI (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:03 | |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: I was going to add something to the agenda, but the lack of anything else on it made me suspect I had the wrong place | 14:03 |
| PaulMurray | Anything for CI ? | 14:03 |
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| PaulMurray | mdbooth, no worries | 14:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | so I think there are patches up for grenade tests from pkoniszewski | 14:03 |
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| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy, do you have links ? | 14:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, just looking | 14:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/364809 | 14:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am hoping raj_singh can get some folks to help you with that, if needed | 14:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | do we have any more news on that iscsi bug that breaks the tests sometimes? | 14:05 |
| PaulMurray | no, I don't think so | 14:05 |
| PaulMurray | It is something we need to get back to | 14:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK, just making sure I am not missing out :) | 14:06 |
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| PaulMurray | is raj_singh around ? | 14:07 |
| PaulMurray | is raj_singh one of yours johnthetubaguy ? | 14:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | its probably still early in texas, so not 100% sure | 14:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | he is a senior dev on the OSIC team | 14:08 |
| PaulMurray | ok, thanks | 14:08 |
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| PaulMurray | That grenade patch looks like something that is needed very soon | 14:09 |
| PaulMurray | are we worried about newton release ? | 14:09 |
| PaulMurray | or just something for the future ? | 14:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | hmm, I think I saw some good bug reports and fixes go in, that makes me feel good about us catching the big things | 14:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | the change to turn on tunnelling by default is probably the biggest gain in the release, ironically | 14:10 |
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| PaulMurray | ok, lets move on then - anything else for CI ? | 14:11 |
| PaulMurray | #topic Bugs | 14:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:12 | |
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| PaulMurray | Anything to talk about here ? | 14:13 |
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| PaulMurray | I think I saw that all the newton blockers are dealt with or not blockers | 14:14 |
| kashyap | PaulMurray: Sorry for jumping in late, a quick question on https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1524898/ | 14:14 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1524898 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Volume based live migration aborted unexpectedly" [High,Confirmed] | 14:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, thats all I have seen | 14:14 |
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| mdbooth | I think at this stage in the release cycle we're only considering bugs which may result in immediate death, right? | 14:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | erm, master is open for ocata now, but just taking it steady so we don't cause issues with backports, I think | 14:15 |
| kashyap | Since it's not reproducible anymore, tdurakov seems to have submitted this https://review.openstack.org/#/c/353002/ ("Skipping test_volume_backed_live_migration for live_migration job") | 14:15 |
| PaulMurray | yeah - there is nothing on the list | 14:15 |
| PaulMurray | of that type | 14:15 |
| PaulMurray | kashyap, go ahead | 14:15 |
| mriedem | immediate death or something akin to passing a stone | 14:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | hmm, I thought that volume thing was still causing issues in the gate, it as was always an occasional thing | 14:15 |
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| johnthetubaguy | mriedem: heh, love the definition | 14:16 |
| kashyap | PaulMurray: Just checking if anyone is able to reproduce it, maybe it's only "occasionally" reproducible | 14:16 |
| mriedem | johnthetubaguy: the volume-backed test is skipped in the voting live migration job | 14:16 |
| PaulMurray | We tried to reproduce it in house in HPE but failed | 14:16 |
| mriedem | it's not skipped in the non-voting multinode tempest full job | 14:16 |
| kashyap | Yeah, we've worked around by skipping the test, but if someone hits it in production, they'll get back to this bug | 14:16 |
| mriedem | which is why https://review.openstack.org/#/c/353002/ is just a regex skip in the nova tree for the dedicated live migration job | 14:16 |
| mriedem | danpb thought it was something with the kernel, or native scsi i thought | 14:17 |
| mriedem | there was talk of trying to reproduce with native in-qemu scsi, which danpb thought would at least give a better error message for what the root failure is, if it fails | 14:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | mriedem, yeah, that was my understanding too | 14:17 |
| kashyap | mriedem: Someone from Cinder team should look at it | 14:19 |
| kashyap | I've requested on the upstream channel with a few specific pointers, but only crickets...Anyway | 14:19 |
| kashyap | This is where one of those "cross-project relations" should kick in | 14:19 |
| PaulMurray | mriedem, is this something we can bring up at a PTL to PTL level ? | 14:20 |
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| johnthetubaguy | seems like a kernel issue to be honest | 14:20 |
| mriedem | kashyap: hemna was the person to look probably, but he's busy atm | 14:21 |
| mriedem | from cinder i mean | 14:21 |
| PaulMurray | mriedem, yes, I asked him a couple of times, didn't want to bother him more | 14:21 |
| kashyap | Yeah, I hear you. But my guess is atleast there's one another person who must be well-versed with iSCSI internals | 14:21 |
| mriedem | kashyap: so, | 14:21 |
| PaulMurray | but in our experience the problems have come from particular storage or network drivers | 14:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | I did hear talk that is is specific to the iSCSI target and user being on the same box, but I am not sure about that | 14:22 |
| mriedem | wouldn't the red hat guys be the best equipped to at least try a recreate with the in-qemu scsi? | 14:22 |
| pkoniszewski | o/ | 14:22 |
| kashyap | :-) | 14:22 |
| mdbooth | On a related topic, the functional gap between host and qemu iscsi is multipath. If we switch to qemu iscsi for the simplicity and lost multipath, do we think anybody would be upset? | 14:22 |
| davidgiluk | johnthetubaguy: I thought we concluded it was an iscsi config problem | 14:22 |
| kashyap | mriedem: Sure, I can try, once these two nasty bugs off my plate are gone | 14:22 |
| mriedem | mdbooth: i don't think we test multipath anywhere | 14:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | davidgiluk: I haven't heard anything that concrete, its possible I guess | 14:22 |
| mdbooth | mriedem: Right, I think it's one of those theoretical features. | 14:23 |
| mriedem | i know it breaks our london cloud running kilo + multipath :) | 14:24 |
| mriedem | 'what's different about storage on this cloud?' 'oh right, multipath... | 14:25 |
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| * mriedem runs to another meeting | 14:25 | |
| mdbooth | Ironic Availability: when your primary source of downtime is your HA solution. | 14:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | mriedem: its real, thats a good datapoint | 14:25 |
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| mdbooth | While we're on bugs, maybe raise https://review.openstack.org/#/c/370089/ | 14:26 |
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| mdbooth | johnthetubaguy looked at this and was understandably uneasy about randomly deleting things with vague warnings attached. | 14:27 |
| mdbooth | Me too, btw. Wondering if anybody can add anything to it. | 14:27 |
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| PaulMurray | Have we got rid of nova-networking yet ? | 14:27 |
| mdbooth | No | 14:27 |
| mdbooth | Nearly, but no | 14:28 |
| PaulMurray | cause those multiple calls are needed for nova-network | 14:28 |
| mdbooth | Do you know that they are? | 14:28 |
| mdbooth | Or are you just trusting the comments? | 14:28 |
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| PaulMurray | ha - good question | 14:28 |
| mdbooth | Because without looking at the implementation, it seems weird that calling the same thing multiple times with the same arguments would have different results. | 14:28 |
| PaulMurray | I looked a while back so trusting to memory | 14:29 |
| PaulMurray | and can't remember that clearly | 14:29 |
| mdbooth | However, if they really are required then we can't delete them, because nova-networking isn't gone yet. | 14:29 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I think this was something like the dhcp stuff reads out of something that gets populated the first time around things, but I don't remember the details | 14:30 |
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| PaulMurray | I think it something to do with the sequence of events on the network side - the parameters are the same, but the state in the network isn't | 14:30 |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: Do we know anybody who could say for sure? | 14:31 |
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| PaulMurray | Is it important to you for something ? | 14:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | I should go study the code, and try get my memory back on that, not sure who has been in there recently | 14:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | so post copy is a lot easier if we don't call things one million times | 14:32 |
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| mdbooth | I think it makes the next patch a bit simpler. | 14:32 |
| mdbooth | johnthetubaguy: Right | 14:32 |
| mriedem | mdbooth: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/370089/ worries me for dvr | 14:32 |
| mriedem | so i added swami | 14:32 |
| mdbooth | mriedem: DVR is the only situation I've tested it in :) | 14:32 |
| mriedem | oh right | 14:32 |
| mdbooth | That one definitely works fine. | 14:32 |
| mriedem | then it worries me for nova-network :) | 14:33 |
| mriedem | i'm just constantly worried | 14:33 |
| mdbooth | :) | 14:33 |
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| PaulMurray | I would expect it to work for DVR cause until swamis last patch went in these calls were a noop for neutron | 14:33 |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: Incidentally, that follow-on patch which just moves network calls to the source significantly decreases network downtime for DVR in the non-postcopy case | 14:34 |
| mdbooth | Can't remember if I mentioned that last time | 14:34 |
| mdbooth | I haven't studied exactly why, but that's what I observe | 14:34 |
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| PaulMurray | I saw your comments about that somewhere (IRC, patch, somewhere) | 14:34 |
| mdbooth | The 3-4 second gap you always get when live migrating is almost entirely eliminated. | 14:34 |
| PaulMurray | I saw three pings dropped in those tests I did | 14:35 |
| PaulMurray | so that agrees | 14:35 |
| mdbooth | Presumably means there's something in that code path which takes about that long. Don't know what it is, though. | 14:36 |
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| PaulMurray | So I don't know what you want to do about the multiple setup_on_networks() calls | 14:37 |
| PaulMurray | should at least validate with someone about nova network side | 14:37 |
| PaulMurray | or wait until nova network goes away | 14:37 |
| PaulMurray | ? | 14:37 |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: nova-network seems to be where there unease is originating. | 14:37 |
| PaulMurray | yep, I am pretty sure it's not relevant for neutron | 14:38 |
| mdbooth | If that code is maintained at all any more, it would be good if somebody could look at it authoritatively. | 14:38 |
| mdbooth | Meta note: looking at that comment, although it's great the author mentions 'dhcp', more detail would have been great. A bug# in the comment would have been fantastic. | 14:38 |
| PaulMurray | maybe this needs an ML thread - don't know who to reach out to | 14:39 |
| * mdbooth will try to note that personally when adding hacks like this. | 14:39 | |
| PaulMurray | Anything else on bugs ? | 14:39 |
| PaulMurray | #topic Ocata Specs | 14:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Ocata Specs (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:40 | |
| PaulMurray | Need to make sure any slipped specs get re-proposed | 14:40 |
| PaulMurray | (I think there's a few of those) | 14:41 |
| PaulMurray | Also any new work | 14:41 |
| PaulMurray | Any questions ? | 14:41 |
| PaulMurray | next.... | 14:42 |
| PaulMurray | #topic Open Discussion | 14:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:42 | |
| PaulMurray | Anything else to raise this week ? | 14:42 |
| * mdbooth wanted to raise https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-newton-retrospective | 14:42 | |
| PaulMurray | go for it | 14:43 |
| mdbooth | If you haven't already, I'd encourage you to look and participate | 14:43 |
| PaulMurray | I thought you summed it up pretty well | 14:44 |
| PaulMurray | the long stack of patches is a problem | 14:44 |
| mdbooth | From my own pov, I've been advocating baby steps towards a subsystem maintainer model lately. I summed up my proposal in a ml post this morning: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-September/104093.html | 14:44 |
| PaulMurray | I saw mriedem brought that up in his PTL candidacy message too | 14:44 |
| mdbooth | Would something like that have been useful to this team over the last cycle in practise? | 14:45 |
| mdbooth | Or are our pain points elsewhere? | 14:45 |
| PaulMurray | have you seen the discussions about this is in the past few years | 14:45 |
| PaulMurray | are you proposing that some people get +2 but not +A? | 14:46 |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: Yes. Many times. | 14:46 |
| kashyap | ccccccdlvjjtblfgnffchujbdhignbkklncbntbjlvhv | 14:46 |
| kashyap | Urgh, sorry, it's my YubiKey | 14:46 |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: For this meeting, I'm really interested to know if we think this or anything like it would have been useful to us. | 14:47 |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: But in general, I wanted to propose something conservative which could be piloted without changing the universe. | 14:47 |
| PaulMurray | It would be useful, but I think the consensus in the past has been that this is done informally anyway in the cores | 14:48 |
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| mdbooth | PaulMurray: So you don't think it would be useful? | 14:48 |
| mdbooth | Because we do it already? | 14:48 |
| kashyap | PaulMurray: I think what mdbooth is saying is that, it maybe done informally with some unspoken rules, why not resonably enforce it, with some predictable rules | 14:49 |
| PaulMurray | to be honest I am just repeating past arguments | 14:49 |
| kashyap | (Hope I didn't misrepresent Matt's point) | 14:49 |
| * mdbooth is soliciting input, not advocating :) | 14:49 | |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: Yeah, I've heard those arguments. | 14:49 |
| PaulMurray | kashyap, the same argument goes the other way - some +1 are taken as virtual +2s and some cores refrain from doing +A where they are not sure | 14:50 |
| mriedem | as i've said before, | 14:50 |
| PaulMurray | the real issue is bandwidth and attention | 14:50 |
| mriedem | there are people i look for in certain subsystems for a +1 | 14:50 |
| mriedem | and add to changes | 14:50 |
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| kashyap | PaulMurray: Also that: there's simply no way a core (that is not an expert in that area) can meaningfully comment on a deep change involving say e.g. virt drivers. So for that, the subsystem model that is proposed makes sense, IMHO. | 14:51 |
| mriedem | i've generally liked the idea of a dashboard where subteams can star changes that are important to them and they've reviewed - more like the etherpad but easier to process | 14:51 |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: My hope is that by formalising a subsystem maintainer model we'd halve the number of core +2s required. | 14:51 |
| mriedem | here is a perfect example of where the subsystem thing breaks down for a virt driver https://review.openstack.org/#/c/253666/ | 14:52 |
| mdbooth | We'd also devolve responsibility. | 14:52 |
| mriedem | not trying to pick on ^ but it just came up this morning | 14:52 |
| mdbooth | mriedem: I don't want to take core review out of the loop. Baby steps :) | 14:53 |
| mdbooth | Anyway, I think it's important to participate in the retrospective. If my own proposal gains traction, then awesome. | 14:54 |
| PaulMurray | mdbooth, I think your case is unusual because you are working in a very contained piece of code | 14:54 |
| PaulMurray | and you are the expert | 14:54 |
| PaulMurray | os-brick and os-win have been broken off into other projects for pretty much the same reason | 14:55 |
| PaulMurray | I think | 14:55 |
| mriedem | well, | 14:55 |
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| mriedem | those were broken off because of code duplication | 14:55 |
| mdbooth | They're a bit different, because the expertise was in other projects. | 14:55 |
| mriedem | os-brick was literally code in both nova and cinder | 14:56 |
| mriedem | os-win is hyper-v stuff that's in multiple projects, like utility code | 14:56 |
| mriedem | similar with oslo.vmware | 14:56 |
| PaulMurray | ok, so that was not the reason, but it still works ok | 14:56 |
| PaulMurray | because it is separable | 14:56 |
| mdbooth | Anyway, I'm not proposing splitting the repo. I'm saying that if tdurakov gives a live migration patch a +2, we only need 1 mriedem to approve it. | 14:56 |
| mdbooth | Also, tdurakov should know when he needs additional review, and who to ask for it. | 14:57 |
| kashyap | Exactly, FWIW, I fully agree with the above. | 14:58 |
| mdbooth | Sorry, now I really am advocating :) | 14:58 |
| PaulMurray | I need to end the meeting | 14:58 |
| kashyap | Trusting people to do the right thing, and there's always hammers like 'git revert' | 14:58 |
| PaulMurray | its nearly top of the hour | 14:59 |
| * mdbooth will stop that. If anybody has anything useful to add, please respond on ML. | 14:59 | |
| PaulMurray | this will have to continue on the ML thread | 14:59 |
| mdbooth | or etherpad | 14:59 |
| PaulMurray | sorry - bye | 14:59 |
| PaulMurray | #endmeeting | 14:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Sep 20 14:59:37 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-09-20-14.01.html | 14:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-09-20-14.01.txt | 14:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-09-20-14.01.log.html | 14:59 |
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| neiljerram | Hello, sorry to be late. Is anyone here for a networking-calico meeting? | 16:09 |
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| jroll | anyone here for ironic api meeting? | 18:00 |
| jroll | devananda, rloo? | 18:00 |
| devananda | o/ | 18:00 |
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| jroll | ohai | 18:01 |
| jroll | #startmeeting ironic-api-v2 | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Sep 20 18:01:48 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jroll. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ironic-api-v2)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ironic_api_v2' | 18:01 |
| jroll | our (lack of) agenda is here | 18:02 |
| jroll | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Ironic_v2_API | 18:02 |
| jroll | devananda: so, you had something to share today yeah? | 18:02 |
| devananda | I did! | 18:02 |
| devananda | a draft of a bunch of specs for us to begin thinking about is here | 18:02 |
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| devananda | #link https://review.openstack.org/367583 | 18:02 |
| rloo | hi sorry i'm late | 18:02 |
| devananda | rloo: hi hi! | 18:02 |
| jroll | hey :) | 18:02 |
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| jroll | oh, multiple specs, neat | 18:03 |
| devananda | yah | 18:03 |
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| rloo | so we need to review deva's patch, right? | 18:03 |
| devananda | the last couple times we met to talk about these, it became apparent that much of the work could be parcelled out | 18:03 |
| devananda | so I went about writing specs for the big things that seemed like they could be done incrementally, within microversions | 18:04 |
| devananda | one of those specs, "api-evolution", is just the problem statements for each of them | 18:04 |
| devananda | the other 4 specs have some amout of detail of a proposed solution for each problem | 18:04 |
| jroll | awesome | 18:04 |
| devananda | this doesn't yet cover everything from the etherpad, but it covers a lot | 18:04 |
| rloo | i like that approach but wouldn't it be better to have a separate patch for each spec? or are they starting points, to be flushed out more in the spec? | 18:04 |
| devananda | I'd like to know what you both think of this approach | 18:05 |
| devananda | rloo: agreed -- and I'd like to file an RFE to go with each spec | 18:05 |
| rloo | devananda: yes, that is what i was thinking. for 'admin' purposes, ha ha. | 18:05 |
| jroll | yeah, agree with separate rfe/spec for each | 18:05 |
| devananda | if I do that, should the all encompassing spec be the first one in the chain (we land it as a signal of intent) or the last one (we land it as a signal of completion of planning) ? | 18:05 |
| rloo | i think the all encompassing one (w/o having read it) should be first. | 18:06 |
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| rloo | wouldn't that be similar to the states spec we did? | 18:06 |
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| jroll | yeah, I think first as well | 18:06 |
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| jroll | maybe the subsequent patches can remove those problems from the all encompassing spec as they go? | 18:07 |
| jroll | and at the end, that spec is gone, because we have no problems anymore :) | 18:07 |
| devananda | jroll: hah :) interesting idea | 18:07 |
| rloo | or should the all-encompassing spec be a spec. I mean, does it need to be a spec? do the individual specs stand alone w/o it? | 18:07 |
| devananda | rloo: they do stand alone | 18:08 |
| devananda | or they could -- right now, I think they include references to it | 18:08 |
| rloo | meta spec! | 18:08 |
| devananda | but I think it's possible to land the api-evolution "metaspec" as a backlog item, then move each problem description out into a new spec (when it lands) | 18:08 |
| devananda | and at the end, remove the metaspec from backlog | 18:08 |
| devananda | and not change any of the unit tests | 18:08 |
| jroll | yeah, that's my thought | 18:09 |
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| rloo | that'd be a fun thing to do, something different :) | 18:09 |
| devananda | if you'd like to peer at the metaspec, here's a rendering: | 18:09 |
| devananda | #link http://docs-draft.openstack.org/83/367583/2/check/gate-ironic-specs-docs-ubuntu-xenial/2f1716f//doc/build/html/specs/approved/api-evolution.html | 18:09 |
| jroll | nice, looks good | 18:10 |
| rloo | if other issues come up, would we update this spec? | 18:11 |
| rloo | the API could/will most likely continue to evolve... | 18:11 |
| devananda | I think we could follow the same sort of process again | 18:11 |
| rloo | ok, maybe we should clamp this down then, once we approve it, to indicate that it reflects issues raised until newton cycle or something like that. | 18:12 |
| devananda | jroll: for barcelona, what are you hoping to get out of the f2f discussion? | 18:12 |
| rloo | you mean the fishbowl/workroom sessions? | 18:12 |
| jroll | devananda: I haven't thought about it too much - maybe we focus on one of the hard pieces and get consensus there? | 18:12 |
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| devananda | rloo: if someone were to later on propose another specific change to the API, that should follow the usual process, I would think | 18:13 |
| devananda | I could even do that for each of these, and not land a metaspec at all | 18:14 |
| devananda | but its presence seemed useful to capture that we've all had this discussion in the past, which identified many issues | 18:14 |
| rloo | i haven't read the metaspec -- but i do wonder whether we need it. | 18:14 |
| devananda | maybe we don't | 18:14 |
| devananda | jroll: I am not going to be a good judge of which one of these is hard | 18:14 |
| rloo | yes, its presence is useful. what happened to that spec section/directory you wanted to add that had 'useful' info but not necessarily specs? | 18:15 |
| devananda | jroll: i think they're all easy ;) | 18:15 |
| jroll | devananda: not hard, but contentious | 18:15 |
| jroll | or we could spend 40 minutes debating frameworks :D | 18:15 |
| devananda | hah hah hah | 18:15 |
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| jroll | though thinking more about it, maybe we leave the "get off WSME/pecan" out of this | 18:15 |
| devananda | jroll: you may notice that I left that off | 18:15 |
| rloo | we should decide though, about getting off wsme/pecan. or make it a xproject thing to decide. | 18:16 |
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| devananda | the four specific proposals here are all ones that I feel like we can do // shouldn't be too contentious | 18:16 |
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| jroll | rloo: it will never happen cross-project, imo | 18:16 |
| rloo | jroll: too bad | 18:16 |
| devananda | there will be upgrade concerns and impact on 3rd party drivers -- we will need to agree on how we handle that, but I don't think anyone objects to, eg, "stop overloading node.properties with control metadata" | 18:17 |
| rloo | yup. so the sooner we make these changes, the better. | 18:17 |
| jroll | right | 18:17 |
| jroll | so I was thinking about talking about that one, though | 18:17 |
| jroll | because there's a lot of impact there | 18:18 |
| jroll | the rest seem fairly obvious | 18:18 |
| devananda | for reference | 18:18 |
| devananda | #link http://docs-draft.openstack.org/83/367583/2/check/gate-ironic-specs-docs-ubuntu-xenial/2f1716f//doc/build/html/specs/approved/evolve-driver-info.html | 18:18 |
| devananda | and yes, there is a lot of impact | 18:19 |
| devananda | but it's limited to specific drivers | 18:19 |
| jroll | ahhh | 18:19 |
| jroll | I was thinking of "make capabilities a first class thing" | 18:19 |
| devananda | right - which I did not include | 18:20 |
| rloo | yeah, we need to do that too. | 18:20 |
| devananda | ehhh... | 18:20 |
| devananda | that's a can of worms | 18:20 |
| devananda | I have intentionally focused this on things that I do not think are contentious // that we can actually achieve | 18:20 |
| jroll | considering we expect this to be a somewhat ongoing thing, one spec at a time... why did you focus on those? | 18:20 |
| devananda | jroll: I think these four could all be done in one cycle | 18:21 |
| devananda | with the appropriate deprecation periods following it | 18:21 |
| jroll | we could still lay it out and do these four first | 18:22 |
| jroll | like, these easier changes are great | 18:22 |
| jroll | but we have some seriously terrible things in our API that I would like to try to fix sooner than later | 18:22 |
| jroll | and that's what I originally intended for this group to do | 18:22 |
| jroll | (the hard stuff) | 18:23 |
| rloo | the hard stuff is what i think the f2f meetings will be useful for. | 18:23 |
| jroll | I'm not saying "this is a bad way to do this", just surprised, as it isn't what I imagined | 18:23 |
| jroll | rloo: right, not sure any of this needs summit time | 18:23 |
| devananda | jroll: which items from https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ironic-v2-api do you feel are hard // need summit time? | 18:23 |
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| * devananda notes that "make capabilities a first class thing" isn't on there | 18:24 | |
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| jroll | it is, #4 | 18:25 |
| jroll | your spec proposes a partial fix for #4 | 18:25 |
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| devananda | jroll: no - my spec is a complete fix for #4 | 18:25 |
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| devananda | it doesn't address how the nova scheduler uses capabilities | 18:25 |
| devananda | I did not interpret that as the problem described by #4 | 18:26 |
| jroll | but I think task tracking, API version deprecation, a deploy API, multitenant without nova, get off pecan/wsme - are all hard things that need discussion | 18:26 |
| jroll | maybe we understand #4 differently, but I think putting those at node.capabilities is important and part of #4 | 18:26 |
| jroll | and I think #4 is about more guarantees about what is in our json blobs in general | 18:27 |
| devananda | I see | 18:27 |
| devananda | "Having undefined configurations/options is a separate problem that should be fixed with better documentation and more unity between different drivers +1000" | 18:27 |
| devananda | I agree with whoever wrote that -- that it's a separate problem from "some values in node.properties.capabilities actually change how Ironic behaves" | 18:28 |
| devananda | so that is what I focused on | 18:28 |
| devananda | anyhow -- if the structure here is good, I'll continue writing proposals for the harder changes (task tracking, deploy API, etc) | 18:28 |
| jroll | got it | 18:28 |
| jroll | yeah, I'm good with the plan/structure | 18:28 |
| jroll | I'm not sure I agree we can do the first four in ocata, but hey :) | 18:29 |
| jroll | certainly willing to try | 18:29 |
| devananda | :) | 18:29 |
| rloo | i hadn't thought about ocata, but now i'm starting to worry about everything i'd like to see in ocata... | 18:29 |
| jroll | heh | 18:29 |
| jroll | so much to do :) | 18:29 |
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| rloo | so i think we should decide which harder things we'd like to see in ocata, so that we can get those in good enough shape to discuss at the summit. | 18:30 |
| devananda | maybe we pick one right now? | 18:30 |
| rloo | and we need to remind/ask folks to spend time before the sessions, getting uptospeed/reading the proposals first. | 18:31 |
| devananda | rloo: indeed | 18:31 |
| devananda | maybe we post a sign, like at the county fair, "if you haven't read these 1,000 lines of spec proposal, you do not get to ride this ride" :) | 18:32 |
| jroll | I'd love to see version deprecation mechanisms worked on, in a cross-project context | 18:32 |
| rloo | we should make capabilities a first class citizen. do we even know whether it is a dict that can take any key? | 18:32 |
| jroll | rloo: it is, afaik | 18:32 |
| devananda | rloo: it can right now, except in some cases, where the drivers do different things | 18:32 |
| devananda | it's bizarre :(: | 18:32 |
| rloo | devananda: i think we probably need to let folks know that the sesssions are not going to be spent describing the problem but discussing the solution. unless we don't know what the problem is. | 18:32 |
| devananda | well, at the midcycle we made a list of the problems :) | 18:33 |
| rloo | yeah, i know it can take any key now. in the new world, would we want to predefine what is allowed for capabilities? | 18:33 |
| devananda | jroll: I would like to see that as well, but I do not think it will happen | 18:33 |
| jroll | devananda: ever? | 18:33 |
| devananda | rloo: you temp the can of worms I was referring to earlier... | 18:34 |
| devananda | jroll: not this cycle anyway | 18:34 |
| jroll | sure | 18:34 |
| devananda | jroll: but I may be wrong | 18:34 |
| rloo | devananda: gotta face the worms head on! | 18:34 |
| devananda | jroll: anyhow, I don't think we should take that one on ourselves yet | 18:34 |
| rloo | i wonder how productive the barcelona summit will be... depends on who shows up... | 18:34 |
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| jroll | devananda: yeah, I just wonder how soon we'll want it, I suspect it is soon | 18:35 |
| rloo | jroll: you could always propose it to the xproject part. if you propose, does it mean you have to have a solution? | 18:35 |
| devananda | so, other ideas: task tracking tokens ? deploy API without Nova ? better multi-user support ? | 18:35 |
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| jroll | I'd hold off on the last one, but task tracking seems like it could be doable, not crazy hard | 18:36 |
| rloo | do either of you have an idea of the operators' pain points. the really bad ones they would like fixed sooner rather than later? | 18:37 |
| devananda | rloo: IME, xproject discussions often lack a concrete solution going in - sometimes the goal is to see who in the room can think of one | 18:37 |
| jroll | right, deva said it better than me | 18:37 |
| rloo | clint to the rescue with the architecture whatever group | 18:37 |
| devananda | rloo: nova interaction. rolling upgrades. stuck nodes. better debugging of IPA. (just off of memory ) | 18:37 |
| jroll | I'd agree with those | 18:38 |
| rloo | devananda: and those are higher than these api issues? | 18:38 |
| jroll | probably | 18:38 |
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| rloo | hmm. we should use the summit to discuss any hard issues that prevent us from getting something done in ocata. | 18:39 |
| rloo | what nova interactions are left ? :) | 18:39 |
| devananda | rloo: capabilities :p | 18:39 |
| jroll | heh | 18:39 |
| jroll | yeah maybe we should focus on capabilities | 18:39 |
| rloo | why do i hear 'capabilities' again? | 18:39 |
| rloo | yup. i think we should tackle that then. | 18:40 |
| devananda | jroll: speaking of summit time, we should definitely discuss the nova / scheduler / resource tracker stuff | 18:40 |
| devananda | we rushed in an API change for that in newton | 18:40 |
| rloo | and maybe it will be sufficient to work on the easier api stuff via spec discussions, and not at summit. | 18:40 |
| jroll | devananda: as in kind of a knowledge sharing session, or? | 18:40 |
| jroll | rloo++ | 18:40 |
| devananda | jroll: yes, knowledge/plan sharing | 18:41 |
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| jroll | ++ | 18:41 |
| * rloo hopes there are enough (knowledgeable) developers and reviewers in ocata to get the work done. | 18:41 | |
| devananda | we don't have a lot of f2f time, but IMO that's important enough to give it some time | 18:41 |
| devananda | rloo: me too .... | 18:41 |
| rloo | probably a fishbowl for the nova/scheduling/... | 18:41 |
| jroll | devananda: agree | 18:41 |
| jroll | I think there are enough people in nova, this is now one of their priorities | 18:41 |
| devananda | jroll: if you think these 4 things, plus, say, task tracking, are uncontentious enough that we won't need summit time for them -- tht's great | 18:42 |
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| rloo | is that a joint nova/ironic session? | 18:42 |
| rloo | we can see what is being proposed for summit sessions; can always have one to discuss things we want to see done... | 18:42 |
| jroll | it's just sharing time, I think if we can get jay pipes in to an ironic session and it should be sufficient | 18:42 |
| rloo | true. i think with nova, if you bring one nova person, you get a few more for free. with neutron, you get them all :) | 18:43 |
| devananda | that's another session where folks should read the docs ahead of time | 18:43 |
| jroll | devananda: I think the capabilities thing might need one, if we go further than "move a few capabilities to driver_info" | 18:43 |
| devananda | I don't think we need to take that on in ocata, tbh | 18:44 |
| rloo | now, the nova/scheduling/ stuff could do with a meta spec! | 18:44 |
| devananda | jroll: or to put it another way, I have no idea how to solve that at the moment // in this cycle | 18:44 |
| jroll | rloo: there's already 10+ specs in nova :) | 18:44 |
| jroll | devananda: sure | 18:44 |
| rloo | jroll: that's what i mean. wading through them all to understand how the new nova scheduling will work... | 18:45 |
| jroll | rloo: yeah | 18:45 |
| jroll | it's dense, and confusing | 18:45 |
| jroll | maybe jay and I can write a thing | 18:46 |
| rloo | jroll: that'd be good. can be the basis of your summit session :) | 18:46 |
| rloo | so wrt the api stuff... | 18:46 |
| rloo | what did we decide? | 18:46 |
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| jroll | sounds like "probably don't need a barcelona session" | 18:47 |
| devananda | I'll add a task tracking spec | 18:47 |
| rloo | and we're not going to look at capabilities in ocata? | 18:47 |
| devananda | rloo: not the major overhaul of it, at least | 18:47 |
| jroll | right, just the move some to driver_info bit | 18:47 |
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| rloo | oh, yuck. still keep the rest in properties/capabilities? | 18:48 |
| jroll | we need to get more of the scheduling work done to be able to move those out | 18:48 |
| jroll | currently people use them in nova | 18:48 |
| devananda | what jroll said ^ | 18:48 |
| rloo | SIGH. ok. | 18:48 |
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| jroll | we all want them gone. soon. | 18:48 |
| rloo | i guess you don't like the idea of a shim in the ironic-virt driver to convert capabilities <-> properties/capabilities? | 18:49 |
| jroll | we *will* do it, just needs a bit more work | 18:49 |
| rloo | ok, i can be patient. | 18:49 |
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| jroll | I mean, we could do that too | 18:49 |
| jroll | but there's some complications, idk | 18:49 |
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| jroll | probably worth shaking out scheduler changes first | 18:49 |
| rloo | it isn't worth the complications. i don't think. there's already lots of other work to do anyway. | 18:49 |
| jroll | ya | 18:50 |
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| devananda | jroll: agreed. let's not complect the scheduler changes more than they already need to be | 18:50 |
| jroll | right | 18:50 |
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| jroll | so action items for now is deva writes more words, the rest of us review said words, yes? | 18:50 |
| rloo | yup. | 18:51 |
| jroll | cool | 18:51 |
| jroll | anything else? | 18:51 |
| devananda | yah | 18:51 |
| devananda | nope | 18:51 |
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| devananda | yah - I write more words. nope - nothing else :) | 18:51 |
| jroll | rloo? | 18:51 |
| rloo | i'm good. | 18:51 |
| devananda | thanks, ya'll | 18:51 |
| jroll | cool | 18:51 |
| jroll | yes, thanks | 18:51 |
| rloo | thx deva! | 18:51 |
| jroll | oh before we go | 18:51 |
| jroll | next week or skip a week? | 18:51 |
| devananda | skip is good with me | 18:52 |
| rloo | i'm always happy to skip | 18:52 |
| jroll | heh, cool, see you here in 2 weeks :) | 18:52 |
| jroll | #endmeeting | 18:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:52 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Sep 20 18:52:37 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:52 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic_api_v2/2016/ironic_api_v2.2016-09-20-18.01.html | 18:52 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic_api_v2/2016/ironic_api_v2.2016-09-20-18.01.txt | 18:52 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic_api_v2/2016/ironic_api_v2.2016-09-20-18.01.log.html | 18:52 |
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