Thursday, 2014-05-08

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markwash#startmeeting glance14:00
openstackMeeting started Thu May  8 14:00:34 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is markwash. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: glance)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'glance'14:00
markwasho/ all14:00
ameade0/14:01
mclarenhowdy14:01
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arnaudo/14:02
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markwashI've posted my proposed agenda at the top of https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-team-meeting-agenda14:03
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markwashI'll go ahead and roll through my few announcements as people continue to come in14:03
markwash#topic announcements14:03
*** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: glance)"14:03
rosmaitao/14:04
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markwashFei Long won't be making it to the summit unfortunately. So I pulled his sessions. Flavio has volunteered to lead his signed-images session.14:04
ativelkovo/14:05
markwashhmm, I guess that's my only announcement14:05
markwashAnybody else have notices or announcements for the rest of us?14:05
mclareno/14:05
markwasheverybody shout at once, if so14:06
mclarenI can do a shameless plug for a late summit slot14:06
zhiyanmarkwash: so for the last session, i will have more time to discuss my ideas, am i right?14:06
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markwashzhiyan: yeah, that's my thought, just give you the full session slot14:07
markwashzhiyan: is that okay with you?14:07
zhiyanmarkwash: thanks, tbh, i'd like to try to get a basic agreement on "indexing" feature14:07
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markwashmclaren: yeah tell us about the cinder session14:07
mclarenok14:08
mclarenthis session http://junodesignsummit.sched.org/event/f9073c8f8e10731c299fab98eb67ba59#.U2tGv-Z0y1s14:08
nikhil___o/14:08
zhiyan1. common functional api 2. poke fs, 3. indexing implementation14:08
mclarenis down as a cinder slot but it should be of interest to glance folks14:08
mclarenIts the last slot on the Friday14:08
markwashI am sad I will miss it14:09
mclaren(and of interest to keystone/swift folks too I think)14:09
mclarenwe're sad too markwash14:09
markwashokay all of that sounds good14:09
markwash#topic checkin on summit14:09
*** openstack changes topic to "checkin on summit (Meeting topic: glance)"14:09
markwashI guess we already started this checkin14:10
markwashdoes anybody have any last minute questions or issues, or is there something you need me to do for you?14:10
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ativelkovI've updated the artifacts' session etherpad, just wanted to check if it is ok14:10
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ativelkov#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-hot-artifacts-repository-finalize-design14:11
arnaudmarkwash: did you get a chance to talk to randall?14:11
zhiyanoh, seems one session slot is a little short ...14:11
markwasharnaud: eek no I did not14:12
markwashI've been a release blocker locally for the past week. so I've been very heads-down unfortunately14:12
arnaudativelkov: we might want to double check that he is ok sharing the session before the session14:12
arnaud:)14:12
markwashhaha no let's surprise him!14:12
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ativelkov:)14:13
markwashI'll send an email now or immediately after this meeting14:13
arnaudok sounds good thanks14:13
markwashokay14:15
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markwashlet's talk artifacts14:15
markwash#topic artifacts design14:15
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markwashI hope folks have had more of a chance to review the docs (I did!)14:15
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markwashativelkov: any notes for us before we start jumping into feedback at random?14:16
ativelkovNot now, I think ) Waiting for feedback14:16
zhiyani did but tbh, besides my comments, i still have some question around the details.14:17
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markwashmy feedback is centered around the pain points I feel we suffer with images14:18
zhiyanativelkov: btw, may i know does the api design part ready now?14:18
markwashmostly I have seen "status" being more of a hindrance (UX and bugs) than a helpful feedback mechanism14:19
ativelkovzhiyan: still in progress. Will try to have something at the summit14:19
zhiyanok, got it. ativelkov thanks14:19
markwashso personally I would prefer we drop status altogether14:19
markwashalso, membership for sharing was never very good14:20
markwashI prefer the swift / s3 model of sharing14:20
markwashi.e. you share a bucket of things14:20
ativelkovmarkwash: but how will we be able to differentiate the lifecycle state then?14:20
markwashativelkov: part of getting rid of status is making the lifecycle basically a binary state14:20
markwashi.e. {exists, does-not-exist}14:20
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ativelkovThis is fine when you import the artifact, but what about uploading the blobs one-by-one, creating dependencies etc?14:21
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markwashativelkov: its a good question. is it possible to upload them in a dependencies-first order?14:22
ativelkovYes, it should be14:23
ativelkovSo you want the artifact creation to be an atomic operation?14:23
markwashI think so14:24
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rosmaitamarkwash: what about inactivating artifacts?14:24
markwashrosmaita: okay there is that one use case14:24
rosmaitamarkwash: also pending delete14:24
markwashrosmaita: but if we didn't have status, could we just have a system property "deactivated: <bool>" ?14:25
markwashrosmaita: -1 pending delete14:25
* markwash tries to be less heavy handed14:25
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ativelkovI don't know how can we make uploading of multiple blobs to be atomic unless we do an archive upload (i.e. the import operation)14:25
rosmaitamarkwash: will have to think, don't want a proliferation of boolean properties for all cases14:25
markwashlet's talk about other ways to accomplish the pending_delete use case14:26
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rosmaitai'm just wondering whether if we ditch status, we'll wind up recreating it by a bunch of disparate properties14:26
ativelkovWell, we can delete the artifact record from the database at once, but create a rabbit message (or whatever it is in Oslo messaging) to schedule a background deletion14:26
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markwashrosmaita: yeah that would be worse14:27
ativelkovso, while the artifact is being deleted there is no record in DB already14:27
zhiyancan we leverage existing scurbber to do pending-delete?14:27
markwashso pending-delete is about recovery right?14:27
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rosmaitai was just thinking of it as a status14:27
rosmaitaoff the top of my head14:27
zhiyanone reason for recovery, but more for performance i think14:28
rosmaitabut you have the other direction, like ativelkov says, uploading stuff14:28
zhiyanrosmaita: +114:28
rosmaitayou might want the glance records first in queued status and then upload the data14:28
ativelkovpending-delete is just about a background worker doing the deletion14:28
rosmaitajust an idea14:28
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markwashif its just about doing deletion asynchronously then I think it doesn't need to touch the api14:29
markwashI think if we want it to touch the api, we need to take a more shadow-table-like approach14:29
markwashb/c IMO deleted objects that are waiting to be expunged have a different schema than regular objects14:29
rosmaitai am confusing things, i was thinking of pending delete as a user-exposed state indicating that you could still undelete14:29
markwashrosmaita: I think that's another use case that we should address14:30
markwashrosmaita: I just want to see it separate from the main artifact listing14:30
rosmaitaok14:30
markwashwhat I value very highly is this: all artifacts you normally list are *usable* right in that moment14:31
ativelkovWhat is the problem with having the state, btw?14:31
markwashif you have another use case (like: I want to recover artifacts I deleted by mistake) you don't find them by doing the regular list operation14:31
rosmaitamarkwash: +1, but we could address that by default image-list filtering14:32
ativelkovI just expected the regular list operation to return only READY artifacts14:32
ativelkovby default, I mean14:32
rosmaitaativelkov: +114:32
zhiyanrosmaita: agreed. and we should only allow end user recover "pending_delete" artifacts14:32
markwashI have a bad feeling about default filter values14:33
ativelkovwhat's the problem with them?14:33
markwashI can come up with concrete cases where they fall down14:33
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markwashat the moment I can only speak about it a bit abstractly14:33
markwashthe problem with them is the overlap of defaults14:33
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rosmaitai think changing status to {exist, !exist} needs in-person discussion at the summit14:34
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markwashnamely, when you have one filter flag that is set explicitly, you start to want to have different defaults for other  fields as well14:34
ativelkovI've put it to the agenda14:34
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markwashtake is_public for example14:34
markwashthe default is actually "is_public=True || owner == me || is_shared_with_me"14:34
markwashthis is an incredibly complex default to express in http filter parameters14:35
markwashand now suppose we add in "status == pending_delete"14:35
markwashdo you want to see shared images that are pending delete? public ones?14:35
ativelkov(just an idea) may be we have a different list calls for different use cases?14:36
jokke_+114:36
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markwashativelkov: I like that idea. actually I think its very similar to what I'm advocating14:36
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ativelkovsay "list my artifacts drafts" (some default set), "list artifacts I may use" (another set), "list artifacts I own" (third set)14:36
zhiyanmaybe we can just def a default filter value for each field ?  humm14:36
rosmaitai don't understand the problem, is it just an http query string complexity issue?14:37
rosmaitai mean, you have to decide what the default will be anyway14:37
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rosmaitae.g., we ignore architecture14:37
markwashrosmaita: filters work great when the default is "not filtered on this parameter"14:37
rosmaitagotcha14:38
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zhiyanmaybe glanceclient can help this14:38
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markwashthe principle we're advocating when we say "use filters + defaults" is that we have some field of use cases, and we will cover it by providing some eigenvectors the user can leverage14:38
rosmaitaglanceclient itself needs help!14:38
arnaudmarkwash: don't we want to try to be as much as possible consistent with the way other openstack projects deal with listing things? from my pov, having a different list operation per filter is a nogo14:38
zhiyanhehe, it's true14:39
rosmaitaarnaud: excellent point14:39
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markwasharnaud: I think we can frame this consistently with other projects14:39
rosmaitazhiyan: but seriously, i worry about hiding too much in the client14:40
markwashin rest the way you have a different list operation is by having a different endpoint right?14:40
ativelkovwell, the client may just provide aliases for different defaults14:40
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markwashso for pending delete, we have a different endpoint that represents the list of artifacts that are going to be deleted14:41
ativelkovwell, in rest different endpoints usually mean different resource types14:41
jokke_I also don't like the idea that we need to make really complex design decisions just to stay consistent with rest of the projects ... it's almost like saying that there needs to be only one api for all projects and the functionality needs to be hidden within it no matter what.14:42
markwashyes. but again, shadow tables have different schemas. . type(deleted_X) is different from type(X)14:42
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arnaudjokke_: my point is not about the internal design but more about the api (what the user will see/use/is used to)14:43
markwasharnaud: I guess I'd just argue that we shoudl be consistent with the other most similar resources14:43
markwashI don't think images/artifacts and servers are very similar14:44
markwashimages/artifacts are more like swift objects in a way14:44
arnaudbut14:44
markwashalso, re consistency, does any other project really address pending deletion / recovery?14:44
arnauda filter is the same concept for a server and an image14:44
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arnaudI mean I understand your point14:44
ativelkovAnother possible approach is not to have the widest possible defaults in the API14:45
markwashI want us to still have filters I guess14:45
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jokke_arnaud: I know, but if it makes the system complex/inconvenient to develop _and_ provides crappy user experience (FE. need to deal with over complex filters, flooding list results etc.) is it worth of it?14:45
markwashI just mean there are some use cases where filters are not the right approach14:45
markwashand I think pending deletion is one where it is not the right approach14:45
jokke_markwash: I second you on that14:46
markwashativelkov: yeah I think widest-possible defaults is the right approach for any filter14:46
markwashi.e. if I do GET /collection it should always return everything (modulo pagination)14:46
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markwashif I do GET /collection?filter=foo it is only a restriction of that set14:46
markwashif we constrain the concept of filters in this way, I foresee no problems14:47
markwashbut it does not solve the pending deletion use case. so we need a different mechanism for that14:47
* markwash is being too loud14:48
rosmaitaor we eliminate pending delete14:48
arnaud+1 markwash I think having a different approach for pending delete is fine/good14:48
ativelkovhm14:48
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jokke_I don't think people will be too happy about that14:48
ativelkovlet's say /artifacts return all of them, including the deleted ones14:48
zhiyanrecover is a worth thing tbh14:48
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jokke_(eliminating pending delete I mean ^^^)14:49
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zhiyanand on the same time, pending_delete is a good thing for performance14:49
markwashit seems like user driven recovery is useful enough to find a spot in our api14:49
ativelkov /artifacts?state=pending_delete will return only the pending ones14:49
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rosmaitai think there  is also a use case for displaying deleted image/artifact records14:50
ativelkovand the client will have a method list_active_artifacts() which will eventually call /artifacts?state=ready&owner=...&14:50
markwashrosmaita: +1, you can't recover from them always if you can't discover them14:50
zhiyanagreed14:50
rosmaitabut the deleted items could overwhelm the existing ones14:51
rosmaitaif /GET includes deleted14:51
markwashativelkov: this is a consistent proposal. may I offer an alternative?14:51
ativelkovmarkwash: sure14:51
markwashGET /artifacts returns all immediately useable artifacts (i.e. if its an image, you can boot from it)14:51
markwashGET /deleted_artifacts shows the artifacts that are deleted but not yet expunged14:51
markwashdeleted_artifacts have additional system properties such as "deleted_at" and "expires_at"14:52
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markwashand there is an operation " POST /deleted_artifacts?recover" or somesuch that allows user-driven recovery of deleted artifacts14:52
rosmaitamarkwash: i am thinking of a case where you don't want the image data any more, but you want to  be able to retrieve the image record because of valueable metadata that could be useful to know about14:53
ativelkov"immediately useable" means "valid for the current tenant"?14:53
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markwashativelkov: hmm, that's part of it14:53
markwashthere might be other restrictions implied by "useable"14:54
ativelkovYes, that's what I mean.14:54
ativelkovAnd then we may have GET /artifact_drafs to return the artifacts which are not completed (published) yet14:54
ativelkovFor multi-blob upload etc14:54
arnaudrosmaita: have you ever seen that? really? I would be interested to have a concrete example14:54
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markwashativelkov: in tasks / import we accomplish that by GET /tasks14:55
jokke_how about making /deleted/ instead, FE. GET /deleted/{artifacts, images} returning the deleted ones and you can filter that with peding or what so ever?14:55
rosmaitaarnaud: if have packages listed in the metadata, may need to go back and seee what was working at that time14:55
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markwashhowever, that assumes that the publication process is not interactive14:56
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* markwash reads scrollback14:56
markwashjokke_: that seems fine14:56
jokke_same with the draft ... having /draft/artifacts path rather than /draft_artifacts would keep consistent no matter what we call the actual item (it being artifact, image, template, etc.)14:56
rosmaitaarnaud: also, for UI uses, may have an instance, you know the image it was created from, may be pulling data from the image record for display purposes14:57
zhiyanhmm..i *think* this could be considered with "functional api", maybe we can do this: GET /artifact just return "useable" ones (def usable later), and use POST /artifact/action to get artifact items with different status, and giving the filters in the body with json format14:57
mclarenor /pending_deleted?14:57
markwashmclaren: I think with /deleted we basically don't need pending deleted anymore14:57
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arnaudok I see rosmaita thanks14:58
mclarento me deleted means gone, or are we introducing a 'really deleted'/expunged?14:58
rosmaitazhiyan: is there some general info about "functional api" i could look at prior to summit?14:58
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markwashmclaren: that's what I was thinking. . I suppose it is a bit smelly14:58
mclarenor /delete_queue14:59
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markwashmclaren: but we don't really introduce it, it's just what happens when an artifact leaves the /deleted/artifacts list14:59
zhiyanrosmaita: yes, i did. https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-adding-functional-operations-to-api14:59
markwashs/it/expunged/14:59
markwasheek we're almost out of time!14:59
jokke_mclaren & markwash: I think rosmaita made good point with the metadata of deleted which actual payload is already gone15:00
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markwashjokke_: rosmaita: the use case does seem reasonable. its possible that nothing ever leaves deleted on its own, but that the "binary blobs" do disappear such that recovery becomes impossible15:01
markwashokay we're over15:01
markwashthanks everybody15:01
jokke_thnx15:01
arnaudthks15:01
markwashI look forward to seeing as many of you as possible at the summit15:01
ativelkovWe'll continue on the summit, thanks15:01
markwashthanks for humoring me!15:01
markwash#endmeeting15:01
*** openstack changes topic to "(Meeting topic: training-manuals)"15:01
rosmaitazhiyan: thanks, but i mean general reading about functionl api, i am not familiar with the concept15:01
openstackMeeting ended Thu May  8 15:01:39 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:01
mclarenthanks all15:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-05-08-14.00.html15:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-05-08-14.00.txt15:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2014/glance.2014-05-08-14.00.log.html15:01
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rosmaitazhiyan: do you have any suggestions about a good thing to look at?15:02
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mclarenexit15:29
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SergeyLukjanovhey sahara folks18:00
elmikoSergeyLukjanov: hi!18:00
SergeyLukjanov#startmeeting sahara18:00
openstackMeeting started Thu May  8 18:00:44 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is SergeyLukjanov. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: sahara)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'sahara'18:00
aignatovho/18:00
crobertsrhhello18:01
SergeyLukjanov#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SaharaAgenda18:01
SergeyLukjanov#topic News / updates18:01
SergeyLukjanovfolks, please18:01
*** openstack changes topic to "News / updates (Meeting topic: sahara)"18:01
SergeyLukjanovI was working on summit preparations the whole week18:01
SergeyLukjanovwe have 3 sessions on summit + I'll participate one panel session18:02
SergeyLukjanovwe have 7 sessions on design summit18:02
aignatovmostly I was preparing my presentation for summit18:03
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crobertsrhI'm still doing some work on the puppet scripts.  I've had some successes and some failures.  If anyone in the know on puppet things can take a look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92368/ it would be helpful, especially with respect to the dashboard install...I was unable to make it work before or after my changes.18:03
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SergeyLukjanovcrobertsrh, I think we have some folks how know puppet, I'll ask them to take a look18:04
elmikoi've been working on getting a centos+hdp2 image to form a cluster in disconnected mode, i'm making progress but slowly.18:05
SergeyLukjanovokay18:05
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SergeyLukjanov#topic Action items from the last meeting18:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: sahara)"18:06
crobertsrhThanks.  I'm eager to get the puppet module updated, but I lack a solid puppet foundation.18:06
SergeyLukjanovI'll repost it for the next meeting18:06
SergeyLukjanov#action aignatov prepare data for retrospective on summit18:06
SergeyLukjanovaignatov, could you please write your status?18:06
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aignatovguys, I only recieved one responsse from Daniele Venzano18:07
SergeyLukjanovaignatov, ping18:07
SergeyLukjanov:)18:07
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aignatovnoone else responded :(18:07
SergeyLukjanovheh, folks, please, send answers to aignatov18:07
SergeyLukjanovit could really help us18:07
aignatovso I think it’s to less to make some conclusions18:08
SergeyLukjanovok, let's move on18:08
SergeyLukjanov#topic Bug triage day after summit18:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Bug triage day after summit (Meeting topic: sahara)"18:08
aignatovI want to get some feedback from core team18:08
SergeyLukjanovwe already have a bunch of not triaged issues18:08
SergeyLukjanovor outdated18:08
SergeyLukjanovso, we need to triage them18:08
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SergeyLukjanovso, if there are no objections18:09
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SergeyLukjanovlet's make one at may 2618:09
SergeyLukjanov(monday)18:09
SergeyLukjanov#agree May 26 2014 - Bug Triage Day18:09
SergeyLukjanov#help18:09
alazarevaignatov: do you need feedback from mirantis as email? or internal retrospective works?18:09
SergeyLukjanov#agreed May 26 2014 - Bug Triage Day18:10
alazarev+1 on Bug Triage Day18:10
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SergeyLukjanov#topic Design summit18:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Design summit (Meeting topic: sahara)"18:10
SergeyLukjanovso, we have 7 sessions on design summit18:10
aignatovI’m waiting it as email18:10
SergeyLukjanov#link http://junodesignsummit.sched.org/overview/type/sahara+%28ex-savanna%29#.U2vIrl6SQeE18:11
SergeyLukjanovfolks, it's time to start working on etherpads18:11
SergeyLukjanov#link http://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Juno/Etherpads#Sahara_.28ex._Savanna.2918:11
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SergeyLukjanovany questions on design summit?18:12
SergeyLukjanovok, sounds like a very short meeting18:12
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SergeyLukjanov#topic Open discussion18:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: sahara)"18:12
SergeyLukjanovif there are no topics to discuss let's end meeting in 5 mins18:13
aignatovhmm, Sergey we are chatting here and sitting close to each other at the same car… :)18:13
SergeyLukjanovyeah, looks like today is a bad day for irc team meeting :)18:13
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bob_nettletonSergeyLukjanov, Hi, is anyone else having IRC trouble?  I logged into the meeting at start time, but didn't see any updates/messages until about a minute ago.18:14
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elmikobob_nettleton: none for me18:15
tmckaybeen fine for me too18:15
SergeyLukjanovbob_nettleton, hmm, it's working ok for me18:15
SergeyLukjanovbob_nettleton, do you have any news/updates or questions re summit?18:15
SergeyLukjanovfolks, when you'll arrive to atlanta?18:15
tmckayI think I get in around 9pm Sunday night18:16
SergeyLukjanov(me and aignatov - sunday's morning)18:16
elmikosunday night around 7pm18:16
alazarevI’m at 3pm on Sunday18:17
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SergeyLukjanovok, looks like there is nothing more to discuss today18:18
SergeyLukjanov2 min left18:18
bob_nettletonSergeyLukjanov, no updates/news from me regarding the summit.18:18
SergeyLukjanovthank you all folks!18:20
SergeyLukjanovhave a good day18:20
SergeyLukjanov#endmeeting18:20
*** openstack changes topic to "(Meeting topic: training-manuals)"18:20
openstackMeeting ended Thu May  8 18:20:28 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:20
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/sahara/2014/sahara.2014-05-08-18.00.html18:20
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/sahara/2014/sahara.2014-05-08-18.00.txt18:20
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/sahara/2014/sahara.2014-05-08-18.00.log.html18:20
tmckaybye!18:20
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