Wednesday, 2013-05-15

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johnthetubaguy#startmeeting XenAPI15:00
openstackMeeting started Wed May 15 15:00:07 2013 UTC.  The chair is johnthetubaguy. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'xenapi'15:00
johnthetubaguyhi, who is around for the meeting today?15:00
BobBallyou were watching the clock, weren't you john :D15:00
johnthetubaguyany more topics from people, other than what is in the agenda page?15:00
johnthetubaguyOK, looks like just the three of us15:01
BobBallnot from me15:01
johnthetubaguylets get going15:01
BobBallI thought we might want to talk about quantum stuff and get other people in to help with that, but we'll go through what Mate's got15:01
BobBallat the appropriate point of the Agenda of course!15:01
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johnthetubaguymatelakat, you got anything for the agenda?15:02
johnthetubaguyother than quantum?15:02
matelakatI am 50% regarding to last meetings action15:02
matelakatThe bugstat page has been updated.15:02
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matelakatQuantum is up and running.15:02
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matelakatIn the lab.15:02
johnthetubaguyone sec...15:02
johnthetubaguy#topic Actions from last meeting15:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:03
matelakatOkay, so15:03
matelakatbugstat page updated.15:03
johnthetubaguyso bob, did you poke dan, I think I saw a promising email>?15:03
BobBallI did indeed15:03
BobBallI'm sure if you asked him, Dan would consider himself well and truly poked15:03
johnthetubaguyI updated the wiki15:03
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johnthetubaguy#action matelakat to document bug finder in XenAPI team wiki15:04
BobBallThe status is that the machines have been re-built and the domU image put back on one of them15:04
BobBallwe're now ready to move on to the puppet stuff15:04
matelakatWhatever that means.15:04
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johnthetubaguy#info smokestack making progress, hosts ready, now to work on fixing up puppet scrips15:04
matelakatI think I will try to have a chat with Dan this week, or beginning of next week.15:04
BobBallSo one change...15:05
johnthetubaguycool, its merge his old puppet scripts into the new upstream ones I guess, to add in XenServer support into the puppet modules15:05
BobBallwe were going to have half the machines running 6.1 and half running 5.6 FP215:05
johnthetubaguyOK, then flip over the others if all goes well?15:05
BobBallhowever I realised that since smokestack is running the jobs on a random machine, we don't want differences between the versions meaning some tests pass and some tests fail15:05
BobBallso we have switched all machines to 6.1 which is what we should be focusing on now15:06
johnthetubaguyah, gotcha15:06
johnthetubaguysounds good15:06
johnthetubaguyleave the virt option open too15:06
BobBallyes - although I haven't testing running 5.6FP2 in a VM under 6.115:06
BobBallthat would be an interesting experiment for sure15:06
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johnthetubaguywell lets run before we can walk, obviously15:07
johnthetubaguynext topic15:07
BobBallOn to Mate's action?15:07
johnthetubaguywhich one?15:07
BobBallI was just browsing the bug report...15:07
BobBallsaw which looked interesting - aggregate live migration not working15:07
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uvirtbot`Launchpad bug 1162973 in nova "XCP resource pool - unable to migrate instances" [Medium,Triaged]15:07
BobBalldo we have any tests for this?15:07
johnthetubaguyok, we have a bug section for later, but we can do that now15:07
BobBalloh, sorry15:07
johnthetubaguymate added them into tempest I think15:07
BobBallsmokestack progress is also later on the agenda but we covered that(!)15:08
johnthetubaguyah, true15:08
matelakatExcuse me.15:08
matelakatAre we talking about Bob's bug, or not?15:08
johnthetubaguywe can15:08
BobBallNot my bug - just an interesting one :) Did you add aggregate live migrate tests to Tempest mate?15:08
johnthetubaguyI am current re-writing the live-migrate code paths, cough15:08
matelakatAre we at that page regarding to the agenda?15:09
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johnthetubaguynope, I only have to delete it in a few hours15:09
matelakatI never tested any pool config.15:09
matelakatnever tested means no jenkins jobs15:09
johnthetubaguysure, but your tests can test such a configuration15:09
johnthetubaguyjust I assume no one tests to pool support15:09
matelakatI tried it once manually, but please don't consider it as a proof for anything15:10
matelakatThat was a long ago.15:10
matelakatwith J.15:10
matelakatwith fish and chips.15:10
johnthetubaguybut tempest has tests that work, its just requires some setup15:10
matelakatThe same tests as the block migration.15:10
johnthetubaguyI guess the other point is there are current no automated tests checking that config?15:10
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BobBallThat was more my question - does the Citrix CI test this config for live migration15:11
matelakatNo automated tests with pools.15:11
BobBallI know we test block migration outside of pools15:11
matelakatCan we move on?15:11
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matelakatWhere are we regarding to the agenda?15:11
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BobBallbut we've jumped over a bit15:12
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BobBallnext is your action Mate on documenting the bug finder in the XenAPI team wiki15:12
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johnthetubaguymate said he didn't do it15:12
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johnthetubaguyI raised a new one for next week15:12
matelakatI will give it a low priority.15:12
johnthetubaguywe are done here I guess15:12
johnthetubaguy#topic blueprints15:12
matelakatI'll be focusing on smoke.15:12
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:12
johnthetubaguy+1 to smokestack15:13
BobBalloh - what about your action John?15:13
matelakattss tss15:13
johnthetubaguyits done15:13
BobBallI missed that :)15:13
BobBallokay :15:13
johnthetubaguywe did that really early on I thought15:13
matelakattss tss15:13
johnthetubaguyso, xenapi-server-log15:13
johnthetubaguya quick update15:13
johnthetubaguychatting with people, its a feature that is used loads15:14
johnthetubaguyI was hoping to spend a day hacking to see how bad it would look for H15:14
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johnthetubaguyso I am probably going to take that and target for H-2 ish15:14
johnthetubaguybut will see how it goes15:14
matelakatCan I have a Q?15:14
johnthetubaguyany more from blueprints?15:15
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matelakatA patch is mentioned in the bp.15:15
johnthetubaguyits not considered the best way forward15:15
BobBallthat patch is in all versions of XenServer and XCP though15:15
matelakatIt doesn not mean, that you need to do anything with that patch, it is just there for documentation purposes15:15
matelakatBob reads my mind.15:15
BobBallI assumed Mate was meaning the xen patch?15:15
johnthetubaguyI might use bits of that patch15:15
johnthetubaguyit was a xenapi patch I think15:16
BobBall ?15:16
BobBallthat's a xen patch - not xapi15:16
johnthetubaguyoh, that one15:16
matelakatYes, I meant that one.15:16
BobBallin fact XAPI knows nothing about it at all15:16
johnthetubaguyits not that important15:16
johnthetubaguyjust for reference15:17
johnthetubaguycool, any more for blueprints, any thing for docs, else straight to bugs15:17
BobBallI've confirmed that it's in Tampa15:17
BobBallI can confirm it's in Boston if you give me a second15:17
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BobBallyes, it's in Boston too.15:17
matelakatBob, can we use numbers instead of codenames?15:17
BobBallBut it is a XenServer patch to Xen - which is not upstream.15:17
BobBallSorry; it's in XenServer 6.0 and 6.1 (probably earlier too) - and therefore it'll be in the 1.6 XCP too15:18
matelakatSo, back to that blueprint.15:18
BobBallbut it is not present in Xen upstream, therefore a change is needed to upstream xen if you want to use this on xapi-xcp on Ubuntu or CentOS etc15:18
matelakatIt has two parts.15:18
matelakatOne is an OS, and the other is a dom0 mod.15:18
matelakatdom0 mod - logrotate, etc.15:18
johnthetubaguyoh, maybe15:18
johnthetubaguyand other bits I think, but yes15:19
johnthetubaguyhoepfully will just add a script to help set that up15:19
BobBallCould do the log rotate through a XAPI plugin triggered by domU cronjob... a little ugly, but keeps a clean separation for Dom0 changes15:19
johnthetubaguyI guess it is a deployer choice15:20
matelakatI would trigger it from dom015:20
matelakatin case domu is dead15:20
johnthetubaguy+1 that was my plan15:20
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matelakatSo dom0 is responsible for baking the rotated log tails15:20
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matelakatOS is just reading those.15:20
BobBallwell I was assuming using a loopback filesystem so domu being dead would only mean consoles stopped getting logged at some point when the disk ran out of space but fair enough :)15:21
johnthetubaguyplanning to do both, using loopback inside dom015:21
johnthetubaguyand dom0 log rotate15:21
johnthetubaguywill try it, and see how it goes15:21
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johnthetubaguyand if the VNC terminals stay up15:21
matelakatAnd what happens if disk goes full15:21
matelakatI meant loopback goes full.15:22
johnthetubaguythe logs stop growing for other users on that host15:22
johnthetubaguybut it doesn't kill the host15:22
matelakatAnd is the guest affected?15:22
johnthetubaguymight do one per VM, but that is probably overjill15:22
johnthetubaguyshouldn't be, all part of the testing15:22
matelakatLet's move on, leave some space for J15:23
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johnthetubaguyany more blueprints, or any docs stuff?15:23
matelakatAre we at the point, where I can share my quantum experiences?15:24
BobBallwell does you want to cover the devstack bp mate?15:24
BobBallAny questions, or reviews that you need us to do or something?15:24
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matelakatIt is showing progress, I had some really exciting feedback this week, and thanks for that again.15:24
matelakatI think we are getting there.15:24
johnthetubaguy#topic OpenDiscussion15:25
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenDiscussion (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:25
matelakatAs soon as the networking patch is accepted, we can kill out eth0 and the rest of the stuff.15:25
johnthetubaguyI think we are there already, fire away15:25
matelakatOkay. QUantum15:25
matelakatAre you prepared?15:25
BobBallor the networking stack formally known as quantum15:25
matelakatWe don't know what is its name.15:25
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BobBallif I had a choice, I'd vote for Dave.15:26
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matelakatSo that is a script, which will set up a devstack with quantum.15:26
johnthetubaguythe firewall driver is a worry, but porbably correct15:26
matelakatWith using Maru's patches, and some spice on top of that.15:26
matelakatwhich firewall driver?15:27
johnthetubaguywhats the spice?15:27
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BobBallan existing devstack installation?15:27
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matelakatJohn, I linked in the "spice"15:27
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matelakatSo, first things first.15:27
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matelakatMaru's DHCP patch will need to be modified slightly, and I am doing that this week.15:28
matelakatRegarding to the firewall driver.15:28
matelakatAs quantum is implementing the security groups (or not at the moment), you need to turn off the nova one, in order to avoid conflicts.15:29
johnthetubaguynot sure why you had to change some of that stuff, but not looked at quantum in a while15:29
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johnthetubaguyOK, you used to be able to do both I thought, never mind15:29
matelakatSo, that ugly patch.15:29
matelakatIt is about getting things working.15:30
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johnthetubaguyOK, looks like security groups needs some TLC for XCP15:30
matelakatSo, regarding to security groups.15:30
johnthetubaguybut its a good step forward, regardless15:30
matelakatI turned them off, because otherwise a race condition appears with the agent and the L3 plugin fighting for iptables.15:31
matelakatAnd I spoke with maru.15:31
johnthetubaguyhmm, fun15:31
johnthetubaguyany insights?15:32
matelakatSo he had a question, that we might need to think about.15:33
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matelakatDoes Citrix have any intention of providing a namespace-supporting dom0 kernel for  XS/XCP?  In Folsom, no L3 filtering was being performed in dom0, so namespace support was only required in domU.  However, the security group implementation introduced in Grizzly will require that L3 filtering be performed in dom0, and the lack of namespace support will prevent a configuration that supports overlapping ips.15:33
johnthetubaguyoh, yeah, that one15:33
matelakatSo that's something we need to do.15:33
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johnthetubaguybut you could just have a separate machine running dhcp15:34
matelakatHonestly, I am not really keen on doing any L3 filtering on dom015:34
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BobBallI also think it'd be hard to make that change to support namespaces15:34
johnthetubaguywhy is that?15:34
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BobBallXS 6.1 is out, 6.2 is nearly out, and my understanding is it needs a kernel change which might be tricky to convince people to take in a hotfix15:35
matelakatI think we should need to do some more investigation, to understand the requirements.15:35
BobBallIf we can do the L3 filtering in the DomU then that would be an easier fit than changing the dom0 kernel on released versions15:35
johnthetubaguybut we can just use a separate server right?15:36
johnthetubaguyone dedicated for dhcp15:37
johnthetubaguywith a kernel that supports that stuff15:37
matelakatDHCP is working, and indeed running in DomU15:37
johnthetubaguyI don't mean domU15:37
johnthetubaguyI mean a separate full server, not a VM, just runing DHCP15:38
matelakatdomU - other machine, isn't it the same?15:38
matelakatIt's not dom015:38
johnthetubaguynot quite15:39
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BobBallso what means that Maru still thinks it needs namespaces in dom0?15:39
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johnthetubaguywell, there is no need for maru's path I thought, if you run in a separate machine15:39
johnthetubaguyif you run dhcp on every server15:39
johnthetubaguysomething they might do this release15:39
johnthetubaguythen you would want that on dom015:39
johnthetubaguymostly because the L3 routing is going on there15:40
matelakatI am not sure I understand you, John.15:40
johnthetubaguyerm, could do to draw a picture15:40
matelakatgood idea.15:40
matelakatLet's take it offline.15:40
matelakatand carry on with the meeting.15:41
johnthetubaguywell, basically DHCP could be run on a server not running XenServer15:41
johnthetubaguyand just do it as with any other hypervisor15:41
johnthetubaguyits only needed on XenServer to support single box deployments15:41
johnthetubaguyand multi-host, which is not yet upstream15:41
johnthetubaguyyes, lets move on15:41
johnthetubaguyI had one item, Xen Hackathon15:42
johnthetubaguyit was more an advert that I am going15:42
johnthetubaguybut that was all really15:42
johnthetubaguyanything more?15:42
BobBallI'm afraid that the hackathon has run out of spaces...15:43
johnthetubaguyor we can quickly touch quantum?15:43
BobBallI was hoping to go, but won't be there15:43
johnthetubaguyindeed, it was going to be to chat with those who were going15:43
BobBallI'm assuming that the focus will be on Xapi in CentOS and not OpenStack?15:43
johnthetubaguywell, it will be now15:43
johnthetubaguyI might look at the console-log15:43
johnthetubaguyif people are interested15:43
BobBallthat'd be great to get something up stream15:43
johnthetubaguyoh, I wasn't thinking that side15:44
johnthetubaguysomeone is already upstreaming that patch15:44
BobBalloh :D15:44
BobBallgood to hear!15:44
johnthetubaguyso any more for any more?15:44
matelakatI am done.15:45
johnthetubaguyI will probably leave for the airport then...15:45
BobBallI'm done too15:45
BobBallHave a safe trip15:45
johnthetubaguythank you15:45
johnthetubaguysee you later15:45
BobBallTry not to drink too much guinnes15:45
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"15:45
openstackMeeting ended Wed May 15 15:45:26 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:45
openstackMinutes (text):
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BobBallsince I have to be waiving.15:45
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thingeeno cinder meeting today folks16:01
thingeemake sure your whiteboards for your bps are up-to-date with progress though16:01
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vincent_houit means i can sleep now :-)16:02
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vincent_houthingee: please take a look at the patch I submitted.16:02
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thingeevincent_hou: roger16:02
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vincent_houHave a good day, folks.16:05
skolathuHello everyone16:06
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hartsocks* I'm getting ready for the VMwareAPI meeting in this room in 15 minutes.16:45
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hartsocks#startmeeting VMwareAPI17:00
openstackMeeting started Wed May 15 17:00:09 2013 UTC.  The chair is hartsocks. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'vmwareapi'17:00
hartsocksHello everyone, welcome to the first official meeting of the VMwareAPI dedicated subteam.17:00
hartsocksWho is with us today?17:00
kirankvHi !17:01
danwentok, that seems like a quorum :)17:01
hartsocksOkay then.17:01
hartsocksFor the record...17:02
hartsocksLet's open first with any blocking or high priority bugs that people feel may be open but not being addressed...17:02
danwentcould we have people quickly intro first?17:02
danwenti'm not sure everyone knows everyone17:03
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hartsocksOkay… good point. It is the first meeting.17:03
danwent(especially with IRC nicks17:03
danwentso i'm dan wendlandt, from vmware17:03
hartsocksI'm Shawn Hartsock and I'm one of a cadre of developers from VMware working on Nova compute drivers for VMwareAPI's17:03
tjonesim tracy jones from vmware.  new to the team - don't officially start until june 1 ;-)17:04
danwenttjones: getting a head start, nice :)17:04
ssshiwell, i'm Shanshi Shi, from, a chinese booking website. we started to look into openstack this March.17:04
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danwentnice to meet you ssshi17:04
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TrossHi guys - thanks for getting this rolling!17:05
woodspaI'm Patrick Woods from IBM and new to this group but quite interested in its success.17:05
danwentok, anyone else want to intro themselves?17:05
kirankvHi, Im Kirankumar Vaddi from HP17:05
EustaceHi, I'm Eustace from HP17:06
Yatinthis is yatin kumbhare from HP17:06
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danwentsweet, a good number of people.  very excited about what this will mean for vmware support in openstack17:06
hartsocksIn honor of the folks in India and China I'm playing "Up all night" by Daft Punk.17:07
hartsocksAny other folks want to introduce themselves or shall we move to our agenda?17:07
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cbananthAm Ananth from HP17:08
cbananthI work with Kiran and Eustace17:08
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hartsocksBTW: if the last time you've used IRC was the 1990's ...17:09
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hartsocksWe're using Meetbot in this channel.17:09
hartsocks#topic high priority bugs17:10
*** openstack changes topic to "high priority bugs (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:10
danwent#info we are tagging all bugs with 'vmware', and so you can see all vmware bugs with a search like:
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hartsocksThat tag is really important.17:11
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hartsocksDoes anyone have any "pet" bugs that might be blockers or otherwise?17:11
uvirtbot`Launchpad bug 1178369 in nova "VNC console does not work with VCDriver" [Medium,Confirmed]17:11
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uvirtbot`Launchpad bug 1171930 in nova "vsphere driver hardcoded to only use first datastore in cluster" [Wishlist,Confirmed]17:12
danwentthis are big issues with our internal deployment17:12
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danwentit looks like that second bug is duplicated by:
uvirtbot`Launchpad bug 1104994 in nova "Multi datastore support for provisioning of instances on ESX" [Undecided,In progress]17:12
danwentor maybe the second one has a bit broader scope?17:13
danwentanyway, there seems to be overlap at the least17:13
danwentand the bug you just filed is also quite important:
uvirtbot`Launchpad bug 1180471 in nova "vmware: vmdk fail to attach to new VMs when using "thin" vmdk" [Undecided,New]17:13
hartsocksI've assigned the first two to myself initially. I don't actually have the bandwidth to close all these rapidly.17:14
EustaceWe are addressing 1171930 "vsphere driver hardcoded to only use first datastore in cluster"17:14
hartsocksEustace: could you take that over or discuss it with whomever is assigned?17:14
danwentEustace: would be good to see a proposed design, as I have talked with a few customers about their needs there, and it would be good to compare notes17:14
danwentwe can have the discussion in the bug thread17:15
Eustacewe should be able to provide the necessary details17:15
danwentbut we should likey converge to a single bug, and get this fixed quickly17:15
danwentkirankv: were you also mentioning an issue with how resources are reported by the VCdriver?17:16
Divakardanwent:  Would you put in your requirements in the bug thread for 117193017:16
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danwentDivakar: sure.  in fact, there's a proposal in there already for one possible model, see comments about "datastore_regex"17:17
danwentthere are other ways to solve it as well.17:17
Divakardanwent:  currently vcdriver is reporting the capacity of the first host in the cluster17:17
hartsocksHmm… interesting. Is that in the bug description?17:17
danwentDivakar: ok, is there a bug filed for this and tagged with vmware?  we'll likely want to backport that change, so we should track it separately.17:17
danwenthartsocks: which item are you talking about… datastore issue, or resource issue?17:18
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hartsockssorry… I was talking about the vcdriver capacity reporting.17:18
DivakarI am not sure we filed that as bug or blueprint for enhancement17:18
EustaceWe have a blueprint17:19
danwentDivakar: ok, can you file a bug?  it should be separate from a blueprint, I suspect, as we will want to backport it to grizzly as a bug fix.   If it is just included in a larger blueprint, it will likely get lost.17:19
danwentand not backported.17:19
ssshithe datastore_regex is exactly what we used to do, the regex is configured in the database, should we move the datastore calculation to an upper level, and the vcdriver just report all the datastores to the scheduler/conductor17:19
hartsocksssshi: nice17:19
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hartsocksssshi: can you post a patch or something? That might at least inform/inspire the bugfixer17:20
Divakarthanks eustace.. yeah we have it filed as blueprint
ssshiwell, I'm still new to the community, might take a while17:20
danwentDivakar: is it a large change?17:21
hartsocksssshi: that's part of why we need this kind of forum, to help people start contributing. If you can only post a writeup of what you did to the bug that is better than nothing.17:21
danwentsomething tracked as a blueprint are usually large and therefore cannot be backported.17:21
hartsocksdanwent: btw, blueprints are up next17:22
ssshihartsocks: ok, could you please tell me where should I post it?17:22
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danwenthartsocks: sure, just trying to figure out if this should actually be a bug.  but we can talk about it later as well.17:23
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danwentthat blueprint seems to also include new stuff around resources pools.  so yeah, let's talk about it in the next section.  may need to be split.17:23
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hartsocksssshi: <- just write a comment right here in the bug, be as detailed as you like/can. If you have a patch post it. Thanks!17:24
uvirtbot`Launchpad bug 1171930 in nova "vsphere driver hardcoded to only use first datastore in cluster" [Wishlist,Confirmed]17:24
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danwentonly other bug to mention is:
uvirtbot`Launchpad bug 1178791 in nova "Nova compute backtraces with nova KeyError: 1 when using VMwareVCDriver" [Undecided,New]17:25
ssshihartsocks: thx. i'll do it tomorrow (it's midnight here)17:25
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danwentthis bug may be quantum specific.  we're going to ping the dev who made the recent change that seems to have caused the issue, as he has already been doing some work with the vsphere driver.17:25
hartsocksIs this a blocker or is there a work-around?17:26
danwenthartsocks: i believe nova-compute crashes whenever it is restarted if there are instances provisioned and you are using quantum.17:27
danwentif that is the case, seems like a blocker :)17:27
danwentseems related to this commit:
hartsocksOkay. I'll add it to my personal list. (but I need to start delegating here soon)17:28
danwenthartsocks: i think Yaguang Tang will be able to take a look17:28
danwenti was expecting him here at this meeting, but since he's not, i'll ping him offline17:28
hartsocksLet's get Yaguang Tang to assign himself this bug then.17:29
hartsocksOkay, any other critical bugs not discussed?17:29
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hartsocks#topic Blueprints17:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:30
hartsocksThanks to Dan for compiling this list.17:30
hartsocksWhen I went searching for other blueprints I couldn't find anything not listed.17:31
hartsocksThat did cause me to spot that not all blueprints have the keyword "vmware" in their subjects.17:31
ssshiabout capacity reporting, we want to use nova-compute to manage existing VMs as well, so any ideas how to import them?17:34
danwentone thing that russellb mentioned was that we need to get those blueprints assigned to the people that will actually be pushing the code17:34
danwentotherwise it looks like more work than one person could actually do17:34
kirankv - working on this one and17:34
danwentwe also need to get the copyright statement removed from the description17:34
kirankvand there is an active mail thread, it would help if you could review and leave comments on the whiteboard or send out a mail on openstack-dev list17:35
EustaceHP Legal is looking into this and give an update on the copyright issue17:35
hartsocksGood, that's a bit of a faux pas.17:35
EustaceWe are waiting for HP Legal's feedback17:36
danwentEustace: yeah, i think it sends a very bad message the community17:36
danwentcontent on launchpad is about sharing our ideas and contributing to the community.17:36
danwentcopyright notices are well, kind of the opposite :)17:37
danwentwhat about in terms of who these BPs shoudl be assigned to?17:37
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Divakaris anybody following the "virt driver thread" conversion17:37
hartsocks#action Eustace will follow up with HP Legal about copyright17:37
danwentkirankv: are you actually going to be the one pushing the code here, and working through reviews for each of them?17:37
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kirankvyes for clusters, resource pools and templates related blueprint17:38
russellbyes please follow up, i'm not going to approve anything until it's resolved, because i don't think it's appropriate17:38
ssshikirankv: you mentioned you'd post your code in 2 weeks in the summit video, any updates?17:39
russellbat least as far as the roadmap goes ... doesn't stop you from submitting code17:39
kirankvThe fc driver needs further discussion17:39
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danwentkirankv: yes, i didn't see that blueprint in the list shawn posted.  we should add it.  hadn't been on my radar.17:39
hartsocksCan we also set a convention of putting "vmware" in the title or subject of blueprints so they are easy to find?17:40
Divakarrussellb:  with virt driver thread i see that the proxy model defined doesnt violate the compute constructs thats been followed with virt drivers17:40
danwentah, i guess its on the wiki, just didn't have vmware in the title?17:41
hartsocksdanwent: yep.17:41
danwenthartsocks: agreed.  make searching much easier17:41
danwentrather than maintaining a list manually, you can just have a link that stays up to date.17:41
Divakarinfact the proposed proxy model is leveraging all the existing openstack constructs and putting all the things working together17:41
Divakarso its bringing in the hypervisor manager in use seemlessly17:42
Divakarrusselb:  any comments on that?17:43
hartsocks#action update all vmware related blueprints to have the keyword vmware somewhere in their subject17:43
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ssshiI also just modified a few line to get it recognize hosts in a cluster17:43
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hartsocksssshi: you are a hidden treasure! Seriously, let's get some of your work out there for people to see.17:44
danwentssshi: would be good to identify what other issues you had to work around, as they are likely to be stumbling blocks for other people as well.17:45
russellbDivakar: as for the specific blueprint about nova-compute manaing N clusters instead of 1, that doesn't really change what's there today too much, so it's probably ok ... for now.  What I'm leaning toward is a model for the future where vCenter support may not be in this layer at all, and it be implemented a different way.17:45
ssshiI'm still new to the overall architecture. Currently the blocker is how to import existing instances on the hypervisor to nova database.17:45
russellbssshi: I would really rather that not be done17:46
danwentssshi: yeah, that seems to be jumping off a cliff of complexity :)17:46
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russellbI think either nova manages something completely, or it doesn't manage it17:46
russellbi.e., nova started it in the first place17:47
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Divakarimporting existing instances is a special use case which needs to be addressed if we are looking for bringing in cloud context to the existing datacenter17:48
danwentperhaps one could imagine an approach were you snapshot a traditional vm, create an image, then have nova "boot" the image, but my focus right now is just getting the basic "all nova" use cases working reliably.17:48
ssshiso here's our story: our ops team want to use our platform to manage existing vsphere production environment17:48
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hartsockswould a one-time import tool solve your problem?17:49
danwentbtw, we only have 10 minutes left17:49
russellbthis is basically anti-cloud talk :-)17:49
hartsocksThis is a "deep future" problem anyway.17:50
hartsocksBack on task...17:50
danwentso perhaps we should move this to a "futures" discussion, as I think its a pretty big item, and one that we won't get around to even looking at until th ebasics are more solid17:50
hartsocks#topic permanent meeting time17:50
*** openstack changes topic to "permanent meeting time (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:50
danwenthartsocks: actually, i had one more BP17:50
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russellbhartsocks: you can do #undo17:51
russellbhartsocks: for the meeting minutes17:51
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x26e86d0>17:51
hartsocksrussellb: thanks.17:51
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russellbhmmm ... seems that removed his link instead of the topic action ... might need to do it one more time17:51
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x26e8890>17:51
danwentfor this issue, as i mentioned in the bugs section, is there a "bugfix" portion of this that we should split out, so we can potentially backport the change to grizzly.  it seems like the blueprint as a whole has a broader scope with resource pools, etc. that would likely make a backport not make sense.17:51
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russellbhartsocks: good to go17:51
danwentDivakar: is it correct to say that the existing cluster model needs a bug fix in terms of reporting capacity?17:52
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danwentbut that the blueprint is proposing this fix, and additional logic around resource pools?17:52
Divakari think to handle that it would be more than a bug fix17:53
danwentthat is what i'm gathering from the blueprint text, but i'm not sure.17:53
kirankvthe intent of the blueprint is to ensure that a instance gets created successfully based on the capacity reported by the compute node17:53
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Divakarwe can have a followup discussion thread on this17:54
danwentok, given that we are low on time, perhaps we take this offline17:54
ssshidoes that blueprint mean we could query the vmware api directly for overall capacity, instead of adding all the instance information from database?17:54
danwenthartsocks: ok, let's talk about meeting time, then in open discussion i can talk about unit tests / ci tests17:54
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hartsocksThe last topic is on meeting times for next week. Since we're low on time I'll just take a vote on keeping this time or not. If the vote is to change the time… then17:55
hartsocksI will have a discussion in the next meeting.17:55
hartsocks#topic next meeting time17:55
*** openstack changes topic to "next meeting time (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)"17:55
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hartsocks#vote keep the same time?17:55
hartsocksRespond Yes to keep the same time.17:55
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danwentits good for me… i worry that the people it is bad for may not be here :)17:56
danwentok, let's at least keep it the same for the time being17:56
hartsocks*lol* good point.17:56
ssshiit's 1 a.m. in china, might be a little late for people from japan17:56
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danwentok, i need to run, but next week, we need to talk about unit tests + ci testing as well :)17:57
Divakarmay be 2 or 3 hours earlier would be better17:57
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ssshilooking forward to see all you guys from VMware and HP :-)17:58
hartsocksOkay. So I'll hold the meeting at the same time next week, but I'll take a vote on the mailing list as well so that way people who aren't here can vote too.17:58
danwentok, thanks folks.  talk to you all next week!17:58
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"17:58
openstackMeeting ended Wed May 15 17:58:58 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:59
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notmynameswift meeting time19:00
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notmynamehello everyone19:00
litonghi, notmyname19:00
notmyname#startmeeting swift19:01
openstackMeeting started Wed May 15 19:01:01 2013 UTC.  The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'swift'19:01
notmynamewelcome to the swift meeting19:01
notmynamethanks for coming19:01
creihtmay this be a swift meeting19:01
notmynametwo major topics I want to cover today19:01
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notmyname1) swift API19:01
notmyname2) portante want's to talk about LFS19:01
notmynamethen we can have open discussion, if necessary19:02
notmyname#topic Swift API19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Swift API (Meeting topic: swift)"19:02
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notmynamethe goal for this is to define what the swift v1.0 is19:02
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notmynamewith the goal of having a) a stating point for vx.y and b) testing if all these other systems that are coming out really support swift19:03
notmynameso there are notes on that wiki now19:03
notmynameand I'd like to have it finalize by the next meeting (ie 2 weeks from now)19:03
davidhadasCan you elaborate on the list of middlewar?19:03
portanteand what does the "-" mean?19:04
notmyname- means NA19:04
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notmynameie that piece of middleware doesn't define an external API19:04
torgomaticdash indicates non-user-facing middleware, so the question of "is it part of the API" does not apply19:04
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notmynameI want to be very clear that middleware does _not_ equal optional functionality. it's a particular way to implement features19:05
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notmynameand I think we should have the v1.0 API as a very low bar for all existing clusters and future clusters to meet19:05
notmynameie, what's the smallest useful subset of swift functionality that we can define that doesn't exclude existing clusters today, but defines enough to mean something19:06
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notmynamelater, we can have 1.1 or 2.0 or whatever, and I hope those (in addition to fixing things) will include more functionality19:06
davidhadasnotmyname: so if its a way to implement functionality - than defining a middleware as "no" means it is not part of swift in 1.0?19:06
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notmynamedavidhadas: it means that the functionality it defines isn't part of the 1.0 spec19:07
portantedoes having a v1.1 or v2.0 API mean that the URL will change then?19:07
notmynamesimilar to the features listed below19:07
notmynameportante: the version string in the path? yes, I'd think so19:07
davidhadasnotmyname: so whats the benefit of taking important functions out?19:08
zaitcevI see that OPTIONS is supported while CORS is not. What good is OPTIONS by itself?19:08
portanteIn cases where auth is used, the storage urls are discovered19:08
davidhadasit just leads to client claiming to be 'compliant' when theyt have missing functions19:08
notmynamedavidhadas: to make sure that existing clusters that have installed "Swift" can still be called swift19:08
notmynamedavidhadas: eg we can't define staticweb as part of the spec in such a way that Rackspace cloud files can no longer be called swift because they use a CDN for public access19:09
davidhadasnotmyname: here is my problem - I am fine with clusters implementing minimal function as needed - I am less fine with clients not supporting middleware19:09
davidhadasOtherwise we are going to have an impossible eco system19:10
portantedavidhadas: what do you mean?19:10
portantenot supporting middleware?19:10
davidhadasportante: if you define a stripped off API than you will have missing functions also in clients19:10
portantethat a client breaks because we define a middleware package to be part of the API?19:10
chmoueli.e: not adding slo to swiftclient?19:10
creihtwhy does the api define what you can call swift?19:11
notmynamecreiht: because there is no other way to do any sort of validation of it19:11
zaitcevWhy is missing fuctions in clients a problem at all? Duplicity does not support tempauth, fine. Because it makes no sense to support tempauth in Duplicity!19:11
davidhadasMaybe 'compliant'  clients should support a fuller set of options - and can detect what the cluster actually support with OPTIONS19:11
creihtwhy can't there be "optional" parts of api?19:11
creihtnotmyname: those seem to be orthoginal19:12
creihtyou define a set of api that swift *does* and *can* support19:12
creihtyou define a separate set of tests to define what designates a "swift" installation which *may* include api requirements19:13
notmynamecreiht: sure, I think there could be optional parts. but one way to do that is to talk about a 1.0 feature set and a 2.0 feature set19:13
cschwedecreiht: i like that idea19:13
davidhadascreiht: so in order for an option to be supported you need it supported in both service and client  - which means there will be a many different things called swift outthere which standartization suppose to remove19:13
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notmynamedavidhadas: clients will end up supporting whatever the api is when the client is written19:14
davidhadasnotmyname: right - so this is why I am suggesting to not define all the middleware (or most) as outside of 1.019:14
notmynamecreiht: we can't test an installation beyond api compliance19:15
davidhadassince than they will not be supported by most19:15
portanteIt seems like what clients end up actually using is orthoginal to a service offers19:15
creihtand why is this our worry?19:15
davidhadaspart of the Swift power is in the eco system it creates and clients play that part19:15
creihtI'm concerned about the api spec being muddied by compliance19:16
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portantecreiht: can you say more?19:16
notmynamecreiht: compliance is derived from a spec, not the other way around19:16
portantecreiht: what do you mean by muddied?19:16
davidhadasWe can have API 1.0 inclusive and indicate that some of the API is optional to the server but not the client19:16
torgomaticlook, if I'm writing a client and I need to use e.g. formpost's functionality, I need to know if that functionality is part of Swift's core API or not19:16
notmynamedavidhadas: I agree. my thought has been to keep 1.0 limited because we never started with a spec. we're only defining it after the fact here19:16
torgomaticif it's core, I'm just going to assume it's there and use it19:16
torgomaticif it's not core, I have to check and see if it's there19:17
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torgomaticin either case, I'm gonna write the client, but the included-in-API-ness of formpost affects how careful I have to be19:17
torgomaticso in that sense, having a defined list is really helpful19:17
davidhadastorgomatic: so as a client you may be requried to support it bu checking if this option is enabled19:17
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torgomaticdavidhadas: yes. and that's fine by me. I just need to know if it's functionality that's always there or if I have to check for it19:18
notmynamethe other concern I have is now that other storage systems are starting to claim "Swift api" support, we have no way to say if they are or aren't. and if a large company "supports swift" but breaks things or doesn't implement things, we suffer with no recourse19:18
notmynamedavidhadas: torgomatic: similar to browser support for features19:18
portanteso does the functional test suite go a long way to help define that compliance?19:18
* creiht has a laggy connection19:18
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cschwedenotmyname: are there any plans implementing a client which is able to verify if a cluster is api-compliant?19:18
notmynameportante: I think so, yes19:19
portantewe at red hat storage are planning on using it that way19:19
ogelbukhis it correct to say that 'yes' middlewares are in pipeline in default config file19:19
creihtnotmyname: I could care less about htat... we also say we have an S3 api, but there is no compliance that determines that19:19
portanteit being the functional test suite19:19
ogelbukhand 'no' middlewares are not?19:19
zaitcevOkay, I think I see what David is trying to say. However, it would really be helpful if he had 1 specific example. For example: all 1.0 clients are to use markers to list directories.19:19
notmynamecschwede: yes. the functional tests are a good start, but not sufficient. a separate test suite is important, and I've had some interest from people to write it19:19
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creihtI'm worried we are going to get too far in the weeds if we worry about compliance19:19
notmynamecschwede: but it will be a community effort19:19
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creihtwe define the api19:19
davidhadascschwede: formal certification can definatly be a way to go19:19
creihtit is what it is19:19
torgomaticogelbukh: that'd probably be a good thing to do, but right now it's not the case19:20
creihtcompliance can be worried about in another discussion, and is more of a board/TC issue then what we decide19:20
creihtwho decides openstack compliance?19:20
notmynameogelbukh: sort of, but that gets back as middleware as an implementation detail as opposed to a feature set19:20
ogelbukhtorgomatic: that's how i understand that client need to check if specific call is supported in particular deployment )19:20
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notmynamecreiht: we set the api for swift, so ultimately it's us19:21
ogelbukhnotmyname: ok, got it19:21
portantecreiht: you mean to say that we define what the Swift API is, but we don't have to define how an implementation becomes compliant to it?19:21
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portanteor is compliant to it?19:21
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creihtI'm just saying that they are totally different discussions19:21
davidhadasportante: lets not go there  - not now :)19:21
notmynamethe openstack foundation enforces the openstack trademark. as such, they want to be able to test for api compliance19:21
creihtan API is an API19:21
creihtno decision of the API spec should be driven by any notion of compliance19:22
portantecreiht: agreed19:22
notmynamecompliance derives from the API. agreed that it comes later. the important thing is setting 1.0 right now19:22
creihtand middleware currently is absolutely optional currently19:22
portanteit does not seem that notmyname is saying that19:22
davidhadasI agree with creiht that wether we do compliance or not is a different Q19:22
davidhadasWe nee dtoi discuss what is the content of the API first19:22
creihtotherwise we should have a static pipeline that auto-includes all the middleware19:22
portanteI think we are all in agreement19:22
creihtwe are talking about API then, why is complaince even coming up then?19:23
davidhadascreiht: optional is fine for the server side - lets not make it optional for client side also19:23
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davidhadas( at least not all of it before considering each one)19:23
notmynamecreiht: because as soon as we define an API, you have something to measure cloud files against19:23
creihtapi definition has nothing to do with defining how the client uses it19:23
* creiht sighs19:23
cschwedewhat about including data security? ie 'a swift cluster is required to have at least X copies of every object'?19:24
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notmynamecschwede: I'd be opposed to that19:24
creihtI think this API stuff has goteen way too far in the weeds for me anyways19:24
creihtdo what you will19:25
dfgwe could jest make it 1 :)19:25
torgomaticcschwede: I wouldn't. API definitions are just about what the client can see, and the client can't see replicas19:25
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creihtI gotta run unfortunately19:25
portantecreiht: perhaps worth have a further discussion another time then19:25
notmynameso, I'd like us to be able to vote on the api wiki page by next meeting19:25
portanteit seems like notmyname and creiht actually are agreeing, but I could be wrong19:25
swifterdarrellI got the impression they weren't?19:26
* swifterdarrell shrugs19:26
creihtshould we define how we specify the api on the wiki so that we can make sure we certify it as an API? :)19:26
notmynameportante: on the api part, yes :-)19:26
swifterdarrellhard to tell ;)19:26
* portante can't we all just get along19:26
shrido we have examples of any middleware is not optional? If we're saying it is just a diff way of implementing, do we have two ways of doing something but one of them HAS to be in the pipeline?19:26
cschwedethat's correct, but if i offer an something like "swift compliant cluster" I would expect a replicated cluster. Otherwise being API compliant can mean everything in the backend?19:26
notmynamecschwede: true19:27
portanteyes, and I think we want that19:27
creihtthe fact that we are still discussiing compliance shows that notmyname and myself do not agreed19:27
* creiht is now out19:27
notmynameportante: "we" == red hat ;-)19:27
portanteyes, red hat wants the back end to not be defined by the API19:28
portantehow replication is handled, etc.19:28
portantehow many copies, level of robustness, etc. we would not want specified in the API19:28
torgomaticwell, an API (IMHO) is a series of requests that I can make and responses that I can expect to receive19:28
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ogelbukhshri: healthcheck middleware, for example - if it's not there, the cluster is not API 1.019:28
davidhadasLets agree on what is 1.0 and if exludes as much as possible or includes whats need to be supported by clinets - I think the latter + defining what is optional and how a client knows that it is optional19:28
portantethe API should just be about how to interface to it19:29
notmynameshri: I'd argue that large objects should be part of the API, and at least static large objects are defined in middleware19:29
portantetorgomatic: agreed19:29
torgomaticso I don't care if my data is stored on 3 separate disks, erasure-coded, chucked into memory, or written on basalt tablets by a room full of stonecarvers19:29
cschwedeportante: that's ok for me, but i think we should add a note to the doc stating that this doesn't say anything about the backend implementation19:29
* portante loud room19:29
notmynameso right now we have the API docs that are sort of a mishmash of most things that swift's codebase can do19:29
notmynamecschwede: anyone can edit ;-)19:30
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cschwedenotmyname: :)19:30
notmynameso it seems that perhaps the wiki page should be restructured slightly to avoid the "middleware" question19:31
notmynameand be for function-oriented19:31
notmynameanyone disagree?19:31
* lpabon aye!19:31
shriIf there aren't too many, why not move mandatory middlewares into core and make it part of the API? The others remain as they are19:31
lpaboni mean, i agree, not disagree19:31
notmynameshri: middleware is an implementation detail19:31
davidhadas_notmyname: definatly function19:32
notmyname#task reorganize the api wiki to be more function-oriented19:32
notmyname#action reorganize the api wiki to be more function-oriented19:32
notmynamethat's it19:32
cschwedeshri: depending on whom you ask there might be a lot of different mandatory middlewares19:32
shrinotmyname, cschwede: I see19:33
davidhadas_notmyname: and can we define it from the perspective of the client rather than the server?19:33
notmynamedavidhadas_: yes, I think that's the end result (as torgomatic pointed out)19:33
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notmynamewe can all edit the wiki, so please do so and we'll get it into shape in the next two weeks19:34
notmynamenext topic19:34
notmyname#topic internal API (LFS)19:34
*** openstack changes topic to "internal API (LFS) (Meeting topic: swift)"19:34
notmynameportante wanted to talk about this19:34
portanteI posted a blue print:
notmynameportante: the floow is yours19:34
portantezaitcev talked about the LFS patch at summit, and what came out of that was two levels of effort:19:35
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portantethe first level being closer to what the original LFS patch is about, a proxy server internal layer that defines what controllers to use19:36
portanteall in the proxy19:36
portantebut if I understood all the discussion at summit, there was a groundswell of interest in defining a second layer of internal APIs for use19:36
* notmyname likes that second part19:37
portanteThey exist mostly already, but they are not agreed upon as an API19:37
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notmynameportante: so what are you looking for as a next step?19:37
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portanteToday the are encoded as the DiskFile class in swift/obj/,19:37
notmynamezaitcev: lpabon: ^^19:37
portanteand swift/common/ DatabaseBroker class for account and container19:38
zaitcevI figured that the "first level" seems too ambitious. We are already using what portante is talking about, just informally. And this "VFS for Swift" is going to take like a year or something.19:38
zaitcevyou can see the size of it here
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notmynamezaitcev: got a compare link?19:38
zaitcevYou mean, a patch like  git diff origin master?19:39
portantetoday, the gluster-swift integration monkey patches the DiskFile class with its own, and replaces the _get_broker(sp?) method for container and account to replace the database broker class19:39
notmynameportante: zaitcev: my understanding is that you want a formal declaration like "DiskFile and DBBroker are stable" or something like that?19:39
portanteyes, and that the mechanism for substituting is acceptable19:39
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zaitcevSomething like that but more realistic than that, I would think19:40
zaitcevLike a promise to be considerate when inevitable change rolls in.19:40
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portantefor example, instead of having _get_broker() method, define it to return a class of those above classes, drop the leading underscore and allow it to be overridden in a subclass19:41
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portanteand add that same method to how the object server does it.19:41
torgomaticso have some spot where you can easily say "use this class, not that class"?19:41
portantethe key question in my mind is: are those classes in a shape that we are willing to declare them an API?19:42
notmynameportante: I'd guess that we'd all be ok with refactors that allow easy replacement. and once we know there are people doing that, it becomes harder for us to change things19:42
portanteto both of you19:42
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portanteyou can see our current code on github at:19:42
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notmynameI'm a little more hesitant to formally define an internal API in the same way the external api is defined, if only because we do feel that the swift implementation is important (but I do love you guys)19:43
portantewe agree19:43
notmyname:-) yay19:43
gholtwe? there's a lot of wees around19:44
portantewe want to reuse as much code as possible19:44
portantewe redhat19:44
davidhadas_I think there should be no problem with having a low level API to a device being completely open19:44
gholtI was teasing both you and and notmyname19:44
notmynamegholt: I'm assuming that "we the swift maintainers as a group" think that the particular implementation of swift in the openstack sourcetree is imortant19:44
zaitcevOh now you've done it, Peter. It's Red Hat with a space. Please report to the branding team for additional training :-)19:45
davidhadas_A device in Swift doe snot have to be a "local physical disk" - and it is still Swift19:45
davidhadas_But my worry is that I think it does require work to get the API to be generic and sutiable to become external19:45
notmynameI'd love to use such abstractions to swap out implementations better suited to particular filesystems or storage types19:46
zaitcevThis is not good enough for UFO, unless you want to include those wonderful object storage devices like IBM HPSS.19:46
davidhadas_notmyname: +119:46
portantezaitcev: what do you mean?19:46
cschwedenotmyname: +119:47
portantenotmyname: yes, so what do we feel comfortable enough with DiskFile and DatabaseBroker today?19:47
portanteto declare them an API?19:47
portanteI don't personally.19:47
notmynameportante: well, you're the first one making alternates :-)19:47
torgomaticI'd like to see a little more refactoring first.19:47
portanteI believe we need to smooth out the interfaces fisxrst19:47
portantethe biggest thing is to prevent the caller from having to know how a class works internally19:48
torgomaticspecifically, I want data to go like this: (http/wsgi) <---> ObjectController <---> python datastructures in memory <---> DiskFile <---> (disk)19:48
davidhadas_notmyname: The Q is if the current call signitures of DiskFile is the one we should use  - I assume it may not be... and we would need to make it into an external API by thinking what is the right API19:48
torgomaticthat may be just me, though19:48
notmynamedavidhadas_: seems like we still need some adjustment19:49
portantefor example, the work to push the fd down into the DiskFile class19:49
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portantecurrently a work in progress right now19:49
zaitcevthat's done is it not19:49
portanteon the database broker side, the work that davidhaddas_ and zaitcev are doing with db_file field exposed would also be useful to cap off19:51
davidhadas_So there seem to be partial agreement taht can help us go some way - to move from the current DiskFile API to a 'proper' one that can be used as an external one. And we need to do thae same for DBs19:51
portantetorgomatic: regarding python datastructures in memory, wouldn't we want to allow a way to pull data off the wire and put in on disk with as few memory copies as possible?19:51
notmynamecool. portante, zaitcev, do you think you'll be able to have it done in the next 2 weeks (ie next meeting)?19:52
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portanteI have been working towards that, and hope to do so19:52
torgomaticportante: well, yes. I'm not saying slurp everything, just that there's the handoff point19:52
portantetorgomatic: great19:52
gholtI'm pretty sure very little can get merged in two weeks. ;P19:52
torgomatice.g. ObjectController reads a chunk, passes it to DiskFile for writing, lather-rinse-repeat19:52
notmynamegholt: :-)19:53
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gholtTo the point of initial review, yes. done? nope19:53
portantewhat I have been looking at right now as how DiskFile is constructed and where its input values come from, and where else they are used19:53
notmyname7 minutes left19:53
portanteI think we are good on this topic19:53
portantetentative approval for the work, we'll check back in two weeeks19:54
portanteminus one e19:54
notmynamegreat :-)19:54
notmynameok, thanks for your time everyone19:54
notmynameI think we're done. anyone have anything for 5 minutes?19:55
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"19:55
openstackMeeting ended Wed May 15 19:55:24 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)19:55
openstackMinutes (text):
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shardy#startmeeting heat20:00
openstackMeeting started Wed May 15 20:00:04 2013 UTC.  The chair is shardy. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)"20:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'heat'20:00
shardy#topic rollcall20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)"20:00
randallburthello all20:00
hanneyhi all20:00
shardyshardy here20:00
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shardyasalkeld around?20:01
shardy#topic Review last week's actions20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Review last week's actions (Meeting topic: heat)"20:01
asalkeldsorry bit late20:01
shardyhey asalkeld20:02
shardy#info stevebaker to send ML email re backwards-compatibility20:02
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shardystevebaker: did that happen?20:02
stevebaker_It appears that I haven't written that email yet. Please add it as an action again20:02
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shardyOk, np20:02
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shardy#action stevebaker stevebaker to send ML email re backwards-compatibility20:02
shardy#info all to look at dsl examples and provide feedback20:03
randallburtthat's been done some, but more review would be greatly appreciated.20:03
shardySo I know the DSL discussions are ongoing, but anyone got any specific comments or requests in that area?20:03
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wirehead_yeah, I've not made any comments, but I've been looking at 'em and pondering20:03
randallburtwe also had a discussion today about merging some proposals and pushing hard on getting a "fina" single wordpress template sorted.20:03
shardyI've agreed to post a PoC patch showing how we could possibly do an engine level translation from the proposed HOT format to the internal model20:04
randallburtmaybe an action for me and Thomas to get that done soonest?20:04
shardyI'll post a draft/wip patch so we can all comment20:04
shardyhopefully by next week20:04
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shardy#action shardy PoC HOT patch20:05
randallburtshardy: I'm still green in that area, but let me know how/if I can help20:05
shardyand as randallburt said, we're pushing for a consensus on a basic template to test with20:05
zanebis there a reason we're trying to adapt our internal model to the template format and not the other way around?20:05
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shardy#action randallburt, tspatzier provide converged DSL/HOT example20:06
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SpamapSzaneb: because our current internal model lacks some capabilities that are desired20:06
asalkeldalso it's based on aws20:07
randallburtzaneb: and we hope it will be additive and (relatively) transparent to the CFN20:07
shardyzaneb: that's a good question - my understanding is we're trying to identify the gaps in the internal model20:07
zanebSpamapS: oh, I know that20:07
zanebrandallburt: +120:07
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randallburt*hope* ;)20:07
SpamapSI mostly see there just being some new internal resources and a few things abstracted so that both cfn and HOT can use them in slightly different ways.20:07
alexheneveldideally CFN can inject into HOT but HOT will be easier to use and more powerful20:07
shardyzaneb: I see the template-syntax thing as being a byproduct of the process, really it's a way for us to hack on the abstractions IMO20:08
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tspatzierzaneb: I think the plan would not be to change the internal model radically for this first HOT patch, but let it evolve over time, basically to enrich it for new features as randallburt and SpamapS said20:08
zanebtspatzier: agree with that20:08
shardyYep, and to figure out where/how we can do that in a low-risk way20:08
zanebjust concerned that starting top-down with the format and then trying to squeeze that into an implementation is making life hard for ourselves20:09
shardywhich is the point of us starting to look at how we can do that with some code20:09
SpamapSIf there's something to spend time on now, it is making sure HOT is forward-flexible so whatever we support in the first release we can keep supporting for a long time.20:09
alexheneveldcomposability and substitutability let people do cool things, and safe if we can do it incrementally which is the plan20:09
randallburtzaneb: yeah, why we hope to put some code to it soonest20:09
shardyzaneb: I'm hoping when we start actually looking at code the process may reverse somewhat20:09
zanebmoving on20:09
m4dcoderis there a place that describe this HOT format for new folks like me to catch up?20:10
tspatzierI think getting something concrete started comming from bottom up can help to shape the DSL instead of just doing conceptual work for too long20:10
shardyie we'll figure out the gaps, add stuff, then work out a sane way to expose it via templates20:10
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shardym4dcoder: ^^20:10
randallburtm4dcoder:  not yet, but would be a good idea as we validate the simple templates before moving on to more complex stuffs20:10
shardyok, lets move on shall we?20:11
shardy#topic Reorganize resources into heat/engine/resources/OS, heat/engine/resources/AWS20:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Reorganize resources into heat/engine/resources/OS, heat/engine/resources/AWS (Meeting topic: heat)"20:11
randallburtor 1 rather20:11
sdakethis came out of a irc chat spamaps and I had last week20:11
shardySounds like a good idea20:11
randallburtis this the "Taking the AWS out of Heat"?20:12
shardyzaneb: will it be a problem for the plugin code?20:12
zanebone issue with this20:12
zanebsome of the code is shared20:12
stevebaker_I think that is a great idea, but how to handle, which now has both AWS::EC2::Volume and native cinder resource type?20:12
SpamapSI was thinking there would also be a common?20:12
zanebe.g. CinderVolume inherits from Volume (the AWS one)20:12
sdakeprobably break them up20:12
thervezaneb, I started working on changing that20:12
shardyYeah, we should still have common base classes where it makes sense to, or modify the AWS resources to inherit and override stuff from the native ones20:13
zanebwe could have a common base or something20:13
therveCreating utility functions instead of inheritance20:13
sdakeso spamaps and I had this discussion about inheritance as well20:13
therveIt adds a tiny bit of duplication that we can leave with I think20:13
asalkeldIs this bringing any value?20:13
zanebasalkeld: +1 exactly20:13
sdakeand we both agreed we dislike that model :)  which is why this was added to the agenda so people could vote on whether we really want inheritance in resources or not20:13
SpamapSYes it brings the ability to turn off AWS20:14
asalkeldisn't there heaps of bp we could be working on?20:14
SpamapSwhich is desired by deployers20:14
stevebaker_can we have pythonic package names?
SpamapSstevebaker_: +120:14
zanebSpamapS: how? by deleting all the python files?20:14
asalkeldfilter by not 'AWS::'20:14
zanebasalkeld: yes, exactly20:14
sdakeasalkeld if there are bps you want to work on work on them20:14
SpamapSThats a fair point.20:14
zanebthe way to turn off aws is to filter out all plugins that start with AWS:: at registration time20:14
sdakethis came out of the original native server resource20:15
asalkeldso but it is not strictly neccessary20:15
sdakewhich lists inheritence as a goal20:15
asalkeld(move the code about)20:15
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stevebaker_is anybody against reorganizing python classes to match resource type names?20:16
zanebfilter = 1 line in config file, vs. selectively installing modules20:16
sdakezaneb those are orthogonal20:16
shardyI think there are advantages long term (assuming we're aiming to have a full set of native resources) in having the AWS ones inherit/share implementation20:16
SpamapSzaneb: I didn't mean by selectively installing modules, I was more thinking of abstraction to make it clear where AWS specific things were happening.20:16
sdakezaneb: you could still install AWS resources, just not enable them20:17
SpamapSzaneb: but the filter is superior, so I like that better.20:17
stevebaker_shardy: they could do that and still be in separate files though20:17
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sdakeclearly we want to filter, but also putting them in different places makes the code more sanitary20:17
shardystevebaker_: Yes, agreed20:17
SpamapSI am -1 on inheriting from native resources being the way they work, but +1 for filtering.20:17
shardyI guess this is really part of the abstract-aws BP?20:17
zanebI'm not against better code organisation20:18
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zanebbut as a development priority... it isn't even on the list20:18
sdakei am -1 on inheriting too - inheritance evil20:18
SpamapSThe point is simply to be able to document/use/deploy Heat w/o the AWS20:18
stevebaker_anyone volunteering for the reorg?20:18
sdakezaneb it is in grizzly-220:18
SpamapSabstract-aws doesn't mean "in the code abstract it" it means "in the project, abstract it"20:18
shardyzaneb: I agree, low priority, but if someone wants to contribute the patch, fine20:18
sdakei just added it because we had a discussion on irc about it20:18
zanebsdake: it isn't on *my* list ;)20:19
SpamapSzaneb: its on mine20:19
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SpamapSand by "it" I mean making clear the line between AWS and Heat20:19
sdakeone of the resource types was on mine as well20:19
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SpamapSthe "how" of that is not all that important to me.20:20
SpamapSbut I appreciate you guys setting me on a path toward filter vs. reorg code base. :)20:20
sdakehere is another way to frame the question - what is the harm of putting the aws stuff in one dir and the os stuff in another dir20:20
SpamapSsdake: no harm, but what is the benefit? My "it helps you turn AWS off" argument doesn't really work :p20:21
shardysdake: I guess the question is more, is it worth the effort involved20:21
asalkeldshardy, +120:21
sdakeit helps devs understand what is what - readability issue20:21
stevebaker_it makes it obvious where to find the code for a resource type20:21
asalkeldalso code churn20:21
sdakeotherwise the code is spread all over the place20:21
stevebaker_which currently it is not (obvious)20:21
zanebsdake: <zaneb> I'm not against better code organisation20:21
zanebSpamapS: +120:22
shardysdake: Ok, cool, seems like nobody's against the reorg, just nobody's particulary keen to do it themselves ;)20:22
sdakein my mind its not about turning aws off and on, its about helping developers come up to speed on the code base and add more native resource types20:22
SpamapSmakes sense20:23
alexheneveldsdake: that's worth a lot20:23
stevebaker_maybe this is something we do immediately after havana-1 (or another release)20:23
sdakei think spamaps _was_ keen :)20:23
sdakestevebaker_ +120:24
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stevebaker_to reduce the disruption from code churn20:24
SpamapSMight still get motivated.20:24
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shardyOk, agree lets leave this until after h-1 and see if anyone wants to post a patch20:24
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shardycan be under abstract-aws BP since we have separate BPs for each native resource?20:25
sdakeshardy when is h1?  3 weeks?20:25
shardytwo weeks20:25
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zanebs/a patch/a lot of small patches/ please20:25
jpeelerMay 30 - havana-120:25
shardySo if anyone has anything they thing is/isn't going to land, please move the milestone target in LP :)20:25
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shardyin particular jpeeler and stevebaker_ you have a lot of bugs so please bump those you think will slip20:26
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* shardy should've created an agenda item for this..oops20:26
stevebaker_I'll look20:26
shardyAnyway, shall we move on?20:26
jpeelershardy: is there a particular commit date so to speak?20:26
shardyjpeeler: well bear in mind reviews have been slow lately so I'd say anything not posted by the end of next week will probably slip, but we'll see how it goes I guess20:27
shardy#topic heat-templates target audience20:29
*** openstack changes topic to "heat-templates target audience (Meeting topic: heat)"20:29
shardySo this was prompted by a discussion with pfreund in #heat20:29
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shardywanted to get peoples ideas about the targe audience of heat-templates, ie should it be purely for heat examples, or should there be a (probably unsupported) "contrib" area or something20:30
SpamapSbeen meaning to reply to the thread...20:30
pfreundI wrote an e-mail in openstack-dev list20:30
shardyie to try to get a community of testers and template authors interested in heat20:30
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SpamapSI think we should make it really obvious that the heat-templates repo exists..20:30
SpamapSand tell all users about it..20:30
SpamapSbut stay out of defining policy for it just yet20:31
shardyOne concern I have is the idea that we provide supported "production ready" templates, which I think we should not20:31
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shardybut encouraging reuse and collaboration has to be good right?20:31
stevebaker_My thoughts on this is that each top-level directory of heat-templates should have a readme describing what the target audience for those templates should be. for cfn/ the audience is something like "people exploring heat's capabilities"20:31
therveshardy, Why not?20:31
shardyany thoughts?20:31
SpamapSshardy: right, I think we'll get to a place where having a collection of those is a good thing, but we shouldn't do it yet.20:31
shardytherve: because it would involve effort that we as a team cannot currently afford20:31
jpeelerproduction templates could have security implication responsibilites we don't want20:32
SpamapSYou need a whole community of motivated users to make such a collection work.20:32
shardyjpeeler: agreed20:32
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randallburtshardy: I disagree a bit in that I don't think its unreasonable to expect that the templates we use for validating heat will deploy on a stock install of the service20:32
therveshardy, OK, it's not a disagreement, just a resource issue20:32
shardySpamapS: yep, I guess the question I'm asking is is heat-templates the place for that collection?20:32
shardyrandallburt: the "test/demo/validation" templates would absolutely be expected to work20:33
asalkeldyea, so don't  discourage production templates, just have a way of saying if each template is example/poc/whatever20:33
stevebaker_if someone turns up with a production template and wants to maintain it in heat-templates I think we should let them20:33
shardythis is about, should we allow loads of user templates, ie too many to reasonably test and maintain20:33
randallburtasalkeld exactly20:33
SpamapSshardy: probably not. To be really scalable the collection needs to be more distributed than a single git repo can do.20:33
alexheneveld#idea let these live in people's githubs.  we keep a wiki page linking to them.20:33
shardyAnd also should we talke responsibility for something people will use in production20:34
zanebtherve: it's a question of, "do we want to be responsible for supporting this?"20:34
thervezaneb, I see.20:34
therveI guess we can wait for the problem to come up :)20:34
zanebtherve: and the answer is "oh, G*d no"20:34
pfreundWhen I said production ready, it was more meaning "templates who can be copied for real production template", still has an example, but not only a functionnality per template20:34
shardyzaneb: lol, exaaactly ;D20:34
pfreundstill as20:34
SpamapSUsers who want to reduce duplication of effort as Heat gains adoption will probably want to be responsible for it.20:34
m4dcoderi think heat-templates should be for development/validation purposes of hea.  there should be a separate public template catalog for the communities to contribute their templates.20:35
stevebaker_zaneb: but hosting somebody's templates doesn't necessarily imply that we're supporting them20:35
thervezaneb, Sure, but if someone comes tomorrow and say "Here's a great template to deploy X", there is no reason to refuse it.20:35
zanebright, and that's totally cool20:35
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alexheneveldtherve: and we should point to it but not own/maintain it20:35
pfreundstevebaker_, +120:35
asalkeldone reason not to do it, is the review burden20:35
therveThere is no warranty of any kind for sure20:35
randallburttherve: as long as they also say "and I'll fix the bugs reported against it…"20:35
shardystevebaker_, therve: right, provided we have a way of distinguishing supported from unsupported (or at least "less supported"20:36
therveasalkeld, I think it's a good problem to have :)20:36
shardyasalkeld: that is true, we've been struggling with that lately20:36
stevebaker_shardy: that could be stated explicitly in the readme20:36
jpeelerwe'd need to make it clear in each template explicitly as well i think20:37
zanebwe could require people to put the name of the author in the template20:37
shardyOk, well there's a thread on openstack-dev "Introducing heat-templates", feel free to weigh in there20:37
stevebaker_just as well yaml supports comments :)20:38
zanebstevebaker_: yah, I can't actually believe aws used a format without them20:38
alexheneveldstevebaker_: absolutely single biggest advantage over json20:38
sdake_who needs comments anyways ;)20:38
shardyShould we move on and let the discussion continue on the ML?20:39
alexheneveldre catalog -- the way jekyll (markdown) does it is nice -- wiki-style list people can update at the bottom of -- quality and discussion is at the bottom20:39
shardy#topic Open discussion20:39
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)"20:39
stevebaker_shardy: oi, one more item20:39
shardystevebaker_: there is?20:40
* shardy refreshes his browser20:40
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x26f8a10>20:40
shardy#topic Linking to downloadable tripleo built images20:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Linking to downloadable tripleo built images (Meeting topic: heat)"20:40
stevebaker_so tripleo are autobuilding some heat-cfntools enabled images20:41
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stevebaker_which I've been using for my tempest development20:41
SpamapSYes plesae try them! :)20:41
asalkeldmight need a version number in the link20:42
stevebaker_ubuntu one is pretty good, fedora one has a bunch of pending reviews and might need a bit for fixing20:42
SpamapSasalkeld: ?20:42
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asalkeldnot just fedora20:42
stevebaker_but when fedora is ready I'd like to propose that switch all links to prebuilt images to these ones20:42
SpamapSasalkeld: we use the latest always :)20:42
asalkeld+1 on the idea20:42
shardystevebaker_: Who will maintain them?20:43
SpamapSabout to switch ubuntu to 13.0420:43
shardy+1 too btw ;)20:43
SpamapSbut would be more than happy to accept changes to have multiple versions if thats what is needed20:43
stevebaker_shardy: jenkins will ;)20:43
shardyanything that gets us away from having to maintain an image repo gets my +100 provided the alternative images work20:43
zanebstevebaker_: that is the correct answer :)20:43
stevebaker_seriously, if they're part of tempest gating we will all be maintaining them on every commit20:44
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SpamapSThose images are built from and
shardystevebaker_: I mean who will own the template definitions etc, where are they, gotta link?20:44
shardySpamapS: pre-empted my question :D20:44
stevebaker_today I got this comment on a review
stevebaker_shardy: tripleo-image-elements heat-cfntools is our element20:45
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stevebaker_so eventually this image building will result in some blessed images being hosted from stack.openstack.org20:45
shardystevebaker_: Ok, sounds good :)20:46
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SpamapSRight, these images will be used not only in gating tempest/heat, but hopefully in the tripleo gate for all of openstack.. eventually20:46
* shardy will not miss watching oz fail after running for 10mins20:46
stevebaker_until that happens I am suggesting:20:46
stevebaker_1. link to as soon as the fedora image is good enough (and delete our old prebuilt images)20:46
stevebaker_2. link to when that happens20:46
shardyCan we maintain multiple fedora versions? That link doesn't specify what Fedora version?20:47
shardyie atm F17 works with heat but F18 doesn't (unless you use updates-testing cloud-init which I pushed)20:48
sdake_how about epel and scientific linux as well?20:48
SpamapSIts F1820:48
shardyso I think maintaining images for all non-eol versions of platforms we care about would be good20:48
stevebaker_I think tripleo are receptive to building different images, but I don't know what the upper limit is ;)20:48
SpamapS"patches accepted"20:48
shardys/we/we or our users/20:48
shardySpamapS: as mentioned above, F18 is broken until my cloud-init update gets promoted from updates-testing20:49
SpamapSthose both can be overriden so.. bring it on. :)20:49
stevebaker_shardy: maybe a fedora-updates-testing dib element is needed20:49
shardyso we need a F17 version as well, and every release, there's always overlap while we work through the latest round of upgrade-brokenness20:50
SpamapSunfortunately, mattdm does not make F17 images20:50
stevebaker_and i386 and x64 versions of each...20:50
shardystevebaker_: I think we need images available for all non-eol versions, but an updates-testing image could also be good I guess20:50
* shardy is a bit scared of updates-testing in general20:50
SpamapSdon't be scared its just crack20:51
sdake_dont run updates testing in images20:51
sdake_it breaks things badly20:51
stevebaker_SpamapS: fyi fedora 19 will have an official openstack image download20:51
sdake_trust me been there done that20:51
SpamapSstevebaker_: \o/20:51
shardystevebaker_: link? and will it have heat-cfntools?20:51
SpamapSOk well please do discuss needs in #tripleo and we have a bug tracker too
SpamapSI had one other topic that I wanted to bring up20:52
shardySpamapS: OK, other than the single-fedora-version this all sounds good20:52
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m4dcodershardy: regarding bp on UpdateStake support for ScalingPolicy, what's the expected behavior?  Any example?  Is it just handling the update of a ScalingPolicy resource?  I see there's update for cloud watch alarm and ASG already.20:52
shardyanyone got anything else, 8mins left20:52
SpamapSNamely that Heat needs to be more responsive to the OpenStack underneath it.20:52
shardym4dcoder: shall we discuss that in #heat after the meeting?20:53
SpamapSI wanted to float the idea that "UpdateStack" would re-create any underlying resources that have gone missing20:53
shardySpamapS: out of interest, why would they go missing?20:53
SpamapSmeaning, if I nova delete an instance, and then UpdateStack comes along and sees that instance id is gone.. it will create a new instance.20:53
SpamapSshardy: out of band reasons20:54
shardyout-of-control admins ;)20:54
therveI'm not sure UpdateStack is the proper place for this20:54
SpamapSSo for instance lets say during the initial bring up the instance was stuck20:54
therveIt seems it would be desirable to maintain the state all the time.20:54
SpamapSbad mirror, or bad compute host.. basically "s*** happens"20:55
shardytherve: I agree, we can't be expected to recover from all insane out-of-band hackery which may happen20:55
SpamapSyes we can20:55
SpamapSI don't see why Heat should be completely rigid20:56
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therveshardy, Well I'm saying we should restart the instance. Just not in UpdateStack20:56
shardySpamapS: sounds worthy of discussion anyway - care to raise a BP?  I know we have a bug about restarting a failed update, but this is something different20:56
SpamapSshardy: the alternative is I have to rename the resource, so that heat will re-create it.20:56
stevebaker_related to this, I've been thinking about a stack abandon/adopt20:56
shardytherve: we already can via the IHA mechanism20:56
stevebaker_abandon is like a stack delete which doesn't delete the resources20:56
SpamapSshardy: its all going to the problem of resiliency to external factors, and yes I think a BP is in order. :-P20:56
* therve looks it up20:57
SpamapSstevebaker_: yeah I like that idea, that would also work20:57
zanebstevebaker_: you can already set a DeletionPolicy on resources20:57
stevebaker_adopt will recreate a stack based on existing (possibly abandoned) resources20:57
SpamapSok I'll write up a formal proposal20:57
SpamapShave already started working on some poc patches20:57
shardySpamapS: I'm in favor of resiliency, I just think it should be something you explicitly enable rather than a behind-the-scenes feature of UpdateStack, cos it's actually a recovery action20:57
alexheneveldSpamapS: UpdateStack = neat idea -- would having a way to write idempotent templates achieve the same end ?20:57
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shardySpamapS: IMO it actually fits a heat stack create retry pattern better, where you can re-create a stack based on the current definition20:58
SpamapSalexheneveld: thats just the thing.. I think the current templates should be idempotent. :)20:58
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shardybut we're nearly out of time, so can followup elsewhere..20:59
alexheneveldwell sometimes i want 2 wordpresses :)20:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack"20:59
openstackMeeting ended Wed May 15 20:59:12 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)20:59
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