Tuesday, 2013-10-01

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garykhi anyone here for the scheduling meeting?15:01
garykYathi: you around?15:02
YathiHi Gary15:02
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garykguess we should wait a few more minutes15:02
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alaskiI'm in two other meetings right now :|  so I can't really participate much today15:02
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garykalaski: ok, np. hopefully next week15:03
garykdo we have enough people to hold the meeting?15:04
MikeSpreitzerI'm here15:04
garykMikeSpreitzer: hi15:04
YathiDebo is joining he said..15:04
garykok, lets give the guys a few more minutes. hopefully more will join.15:05
garykmaybe everyone is fighting with the gate15:05
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garykPhilD: hi, you around?15:06
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PhilDYep, I'm here15:07
PhilDSorry I was a fee minutes late15:07
PhilDdid I miss somethign15:07
garykno, we have yet to start15:08
debo_osme too15:08
garykok, i guess we have a handful so lets get the show on the road15:08
garyk#startmeeting scheduling15:08
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct  1 15:08:20 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is garyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:08
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:08
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduling)"15:08
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scheduling'15:08
garykNot sure if you guys saw the mail I sent. I suggested we talk about maybe discussing an API to propose for summit15:08
garykAnd in addition to this the Heat scheduling discussion on the list.15:09
MikeSpreitzerI saw the mail.15:09
MikeSpreitzerIf I understand, it's really the same discussion.15:09
garykSo should we start with the API?15:09
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garyk#topic Discuss scheduling API for summit15:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Discuss scheduling API for summit (Meeting topic: scheduling)"15:09
MikeSpreitzerI think the API should look a lot like the Heat API — deal with this template15:09
debo_osgaryk, mike: +1 for API15:09
debo_osbut I am not sure if the scheduler API should look like HEAT ....15:09
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MikeSpreitzerIf we want to make a unified decision, we need unified input15:10
debo_osIt needs to specify the VRT or eq and policy handles15:10
debo_osand it should be very very simple15:10
PhilDalaski has been pushing a set of changes for the query scheduler - how does that relate to this ?15:10
MikeSpreitzerOh, something else I need to learn.  Can you give a pointer?15:10
debo_osMike: agree about the unified input ... hence maybe VRT ...  ..15:10
garykdebo_os: can you please elaborate on VRT15:11
debo_osbut the API could be very simple which is easy to incrementally build and allow for extensions to have complex variants15:11
debo_osVRT  = virtual resource topology from Mike's jargon15:11
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garykJust to recap, last week we spoke about an trying to understand the following (3 things):15:12
garyk1. a user facing API15:12
garyk2. understanding which resources need to be tracked15:12
debo_osfor example, one needs to pass in groups of resources that need to be scheduled as a single entity for starters - network compute storage ... and pass a list of policy object15:12
garyk3. backend implementation15:12
debo_osok ... so we are one 115:12
garykdebo_os: yes :)15:13
debo_osI think 2, 3 are imp but we should have a simple 1. with room for complex extensions since this will evolve15:13
debo_osmaybe over 1-2 releases ...15:13
garykdebo_os: agreed.15:13
MikeSpreitzerI think we should consider two basic approaches to 1: (a) introduce a new service with its own API or (b) introduce a side-car to the existing Heat engine15:13
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garykdo you want to explain what you are thinking and lets see if we can translate those ideas into api's15:14
MikeSpreitzer( a ) would be to put up a service that has an API that is similar to Heat's — you can give it a template to instantiate / update, and ask about what happened to it.15:14
debo_osgaryk: was that for Mike15:14
garykpersonally i think that heat is too high in the application stack to be able to make the scheduling decions15:14
garykdebo_os: it was for you15:15
MikeSpreitzeror not15:15
debo_osok ... so here is my simplification of the threads - I agree with Mike wrt specify all resources upfront for scheduler15:15
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MikeSpreitzerI think of holistic infrastructure scheduling as a  lower level thing than software orchestration preparation,15:16
debo_osso an API should have the following objects: list of VRTs, list of policies and list of metadata15:16
MikeSpreitzerbut infrastructure orchestration is downstream from holistic scheduling.15:16
debo_osso in the simple variation, VRTs could be instances alone and implemented inside nova15:16
debo_osin a complex variation, this thing could be built on top of nova, neutron, cinder15:17
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MikeSpreitzerDebo: You mean a VRT would mention only VMs and be processed only inside nova?15:17
debo_osin teh simplest implementation to show the API layer works with the policies15:17
debo_osin the complex variant, we can do what you proposed ... specify the topology15:18
MikeSpreitzerDebo: I take that as agreement and elaboration15:18
debo_osinstances are the simplest incarnation of yoru topology - single node15:18
MikeSpreitzernow I'm not so sure I understand you15:18
debo_osok lets look at your topology - nodes are compute, or storage  say ....15:19
garykdebo_os: can you please give example so it can maybe help to explain15:19
MikeSpreitzerBy "single node" you mean something with VRT syntax that just happens to have only one resource in it?15:19
debo_osok consider a simple web app15:19
debo_osweb layer (rails) = 1 VM connected to mysql (1VM)15:19
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debo_osin the simplest incarnation,  you can say give me 2 VMs ... in the full VRT variation, its VM ---> VM15:20
debo_osor rather ext_network--> VM --> VM15:20
debo_osso you are specifying network and compute15:20
garyk(not to mention storage)15:20
debo_osof course :)15:21
MikeSpreitzerof course not, or of course including15:21
debo_osbut we can have teh same API and different variations ...15:21
MikeSpreitzerI'm a little lost.  Is this a new API for nova, a new syntax to stuff into some existing nova API, or what?15:21
debo_osVRT implemented in nova boils down to asking for only compute nodes15:21
debo_osMike this is a simple API that can both be done in nova for starters and then done as a service15:22
debo_oswithout changing the API15:22
MikeSpreitzerAh, thanks15:22
debo_osand that allows you to plug in your secret sauce15:22
debo_ossince everyone will have their smart ways of implementing it15:22
MikeSpreitzerSo it's a new API that takes a VRT.  Start by implementing it for nova, later implement as a new service or expansion of Heat engine.  Right?15:22
debo_ossomeone will do LP based solving, someone will do nonlinear15:22
debo_osyes :)15:22
garykMikeSpreitzer: yes,15:23
debo_oswow ... any disagreements?15:24
garykif we could come to an agreement on what the API would look like then it could be useful to propose that15:24
MikeSpreitzerNova already has an API for creating a set of VM instances, right?  Can we expand the syntax accepted there?15:24
garykPhilD: what do you think?15:24
debo_osa few of us were trying to get instance_groups as an extension ... I think we could improve that API to have VRTs15:24
Yathisimple variation will still have - list of instances (simple VRT),  list of policies, and list of metadata  right15:24
PhilDSorry, production issue came in15:24
garykok, np15:25
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garykMikeSpreitzer: the instance groups just have policies at the moment. It should be consumed by the API that we would like to propose (i think)15:25
MikeSpreitzerOK, I'm such a newbie I mostly read documentation.  But the doc for the Nova API includes today an extension for placing a set of VMs.15:25
debo_osso the API shoudl have CRUDs for VRTs, policies and metadata?15:25
Yathithe VRTs should specify the request_spec right. .15:25
debo_osyathi: yes15:26
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garykI think that our goal here is to define the VRT15:26
MikeSpreitzerpolicies are parts of VRTs, you do not create policies independently15:26
garykif we could define the API, flows and usecases then we could have a good starting point15:26
debo_osok ... so then a list of VRTs with embedded policies and metadata?15:26
debo_oswould that work15:27
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MikeSpreitzerdebo: yes, that's what I was thinking15:27
PhilDYeah, I think I'd need to see some examples of the VRT to really get a sense of what's being propsoed15:27
Yathiembedded structure sounds good - makes it clean15:27
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debo_osI have one in my mind but Mike might have examples15:27
MikeSpreitzerThe wiki page I wrote about policy extension gives much of that15:27
debo_oslets consider ext_network --> VM --> VM to go back to the web app15:27
garykMikeSpreitzer: please paste the link15:27
MikeSpreitzerI did not go all the way to concrete syntax, but am happy to discuss that here15:27
debo_oswhere you need 1 VM for apache and 1 VM for mysql15:27
PhilDWorked thruugh Use cases are always a good way exploring this kind of think IMO15:27
Yathiwe need to evolve the instance group api extension to consider this new thing15:28
garykYathi: agreed15:28
garykdebo_os: please continue with the example (we all seemed to interrupt you)15:28
debo_osso VRT = { nodes, connections, policy, metadata}15:28
debo_oswhere nodes = list of VM request specs15:29
debo_osconnections = list of <node,node> pairs15:29
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debo_ostahts my simple use case15:30
MikeSpreitzerThe way I see it, we already have syntax (in heat) for set of resources.  Need to add only: (1) grouping, (2) policies, (3) way to put policies on relationships15:30
garykdebo_os: would the policies not be coupled with the connections15:30
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garykthat is, some we may want affinity, others anti-affinity etc15:30
debo_osgaryk: VRT level policies are here15:31
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debo_osconnection level policies need to be in <node,node, policy>15:31
debo_ossorry should have added policy for all the types15:31
MikeSpreitzerexactly.  You can attach a policy to a relationship between two group/resource15:31
garykok, understood. that sounds logical15:31
Yathican a VRT be a hierarchy of VRTs ?15:31
debo_oswhy not ...15:31
MikeSpreitzerNo, one VRT has a hierarchy of groups15:31
Yathithen each VRT can have a VRT level policy15:31
MikeSpreitzerVRT is the whole you want processed at once15:32
garykyup, kind of what we once described as ensembles15:32
debo_oshttp://docwiki.cisco.com/wiki/Donabe_for_OpenStack .... we have an implementation fo recursive containers on openstack ... hence recursive VRTs15:32
MikeSpreitzerSo we are agreed on the idea of recursive containment15:32
debo_oswith full GUI ... http://www.openstack.org/summit/portland-2013/session-videos/presentation/interactive-visual-orchestration-with-curvature-and-donabe15:32
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MikeSpreitzerWe could use a syntax that is oriented around the group AKA container, primarily a tree of those.15:33
debo_osgaryk: +1 lots of things are similar which is good since it means we all need something like this15:33
debo_osmike: why tree and why not graphs15:33
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MikeSpreitzer"contain" pretty much implies a tree-like shape to me.15:34
debo_oswe can already do graphs with neutron and openstack ...15:34
debo_ossorry nova15:34
MikeSpreitzerIt may not seem like it to some of you, but I am actually trying to not go farther than necessary here15:34
MikeSpreitzerI think a tree is sufficient15:35
debo_osmike: while i agree it looks like treee ... i can also think it looks like a graph15:35
MikeSpreitzerDebo: acyclic, right?15:35
debo_osesp for describing virtual clusters for intense workloads15:35
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debo_osif you spec bw constraints you might want to spec a clique with max bw of the edges15:35
debo_ossee this is why we need an abstract API15:36
MikeSpreitzerDebo: Is that an answer to my question about whether the graph can have cycles?15:36
debo_osin one implementation you could restrict VRTs to trees15:36
debo_osyes it can15:36
debo_osI mean Neutron would support it ... why not then15:36
Yathilet's start with simple examples :)15:37
MikeSpreitzerCan you give us some use cases that require something more general than a tree?15:37
garyki really think that we need to start with something simple.15:37
debo_ossure ... in a hadoop env, you might want to define a clque15:37
debo_osthats why keeping the API to the VRT level is what I would love to see15:37
garykif we go for complex there is no chance we are going to get it through (it should be extensible to be built on in the fyture)15:37
debo_ossince there is no end to making this API look better15:38
MikeSpreitzerThe clique is not a problem for a tree.  One vertex for the parent, one for each member.15:38
debo_osI am happy if we agree to VRTs with embedded metadata and policy15:38
Yathiokay going back to the API.. what is a POLICY ?15:38
MikeSpreitzermembers all children of the same parent15:38
YathiI have seen flavors of affinity, antiaffinity etc15:38
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debo_ospolicy could be simple named policy handles implemented by whoever is provising u the scheduling15:38
Yathibut do we have a generic idea of what could a policy be like15:38
MikeSpreitzercollocation, anti-collocation15:38
debo_osyeah so these are named objects15:39
MikeSpreitzerYes, we need to define semantics15:39
garykproximity and compute resources15:39
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MikeSpreitzerI think some take parameters15:39
debo_osmike: do we need to define semantics in the api right now15:39
MikeSpreitzerfor example, anti-collocation to what level of granularity?  Rack, machine, … ?15:39
debo_oswhy dont we agree on the basic high level objects that the API needs15:39
garyki think that the onus is on us to try and define the API. then provide examples, use cases and flows15:39
YathiI like the idea of named policy handles.. leaving the implementation details outside15:39
Yathiso each kind of implementation of the "SMART resource placement engine" can use policies differently15:40
MikeSpreitzerA policy "instance" as it appears in a VRT needs only to name the policy, the thing or two to which it applies, and give the values of the relevant parameters.15:40
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garykthe more robust the api the better (i know it sounds like lip service, but we really need a good base here)15:40
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debo_osgaryk: trying to see if we need anything more than a list of VRTs with policy names (maybe params)15:41
debo_oselse the API looks simple from a 30K ft alt15:41
MikeSpreitzerI oulined a proposal in https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/PolicyExtension15:41
garykit should compile on paper (or in our case interpret on paper)15:41
MikeSpreitzerwe need groups, a way to apply a policy to a group, and a way to apply policies to a pair of groups15:41
MikeSpreitzeryou could allow resources in places of groups, or not, depending on evolution tactics15:42
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debo_osmike: could we keep teh API simple and just have VRTs with policies15:42
debo_oswould that break your use cases15:42
debo_osthen it would be really simple and the impl could be as elaborate as you want!15:43
MikeSpreitzerWe need a way to apply a policy to a relationship15:43
debo_osapply = implementation, right?15:43
MikeSpreitzere.g., "I need 1 Gbps between A and B"15:43
debo_osyes thats a policy for the connection between A, B15:43
MikeSpreitzeror, for firewall, "A should be able to open a TCP connection to port 8080 on B"15:44
debo_osso when you put edges in your VRT, you should have edge policy15:44
debo_oshence edges = <node,node,policy>15:44
MikeSpreitzerright, call them edges or relationships, we need them15:44
debo_osnodes = <node, policy>15:44
debo_osVRT = <nodes, edges, policies>15:44
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Yathi+1 for VRT = <nodes, edges, policies>15:45
debo_osI am just using std graph terminology15:45
debo_osG=(V,E) :)15:45
MikeSpreitzerand we need recursive grouping15:45
debo_osin the simplest case edges =[], and we can do this in Nova15:45
debo_osnodes = VMs only15:45
MikeSpreitzerThe three key ideas are: recursive grouping, relationships, and policy applied to group/element or relationship15:46
doronCan an edge include more than 2 nodes?15:46
debo_osok this definition will apply if you consider node = abstract node that represents anotehr VRT15:46
MikeSpreitzerAnd we need edges to be directed, in some cases (e.g., firewall rule)15:46
debo_osexept that you need metadata15:46
YathiI was going to ask the same thing can the node be a VRT15:46
Yathifor abstract15:46
debo_osfor a node to be treated as a VT you need ingress border nodes for a given VRT15:47
doronso no way to secure 1 GB between A, B and C?15:47
debo_osDoron: you need to do A-B, B-C C-A15:47
doronI know, but one of them may fail.15:47
doronwhich invalidates everything15:47
debo_osif you want shared A,B,C you need a special VRT with policies that implement that15:48
garykdoron: that is why the scheduling should be done at one shot15:48
debo_osand then stick this VRT as a node in the general VRT15:48
MikeSpreitzerMost policies are essentially about a pairwise relationship, so applying such a policy reduces to a bunch of atomic relationships15:48
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doronI'm aware of the atomic need, which sometimes15:49
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doronends up with a need for more than a pair of nodes.15:49
doronif you take afinity,15:49
MikeSpreitzerapplying a dyadic policy to a group means to apply it to every pair within the group15:49
debo_osso I guess we are all saying the same thing with slight changes in jargon15:49
debo_osso a dict of jargon mappings would suffice :)15:49
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MikeSpreitzerYes, I imagine you could apply a collocation policy to a group of 7 VMs, that means all pairs are collocated15:50
debo_osso any disagrees with the simple API = VRTs = <nodes, edges, policies, metadata>?15:50
debo_oswith implementation in plugins15:50
MikeSpreitzerWhat do you mean by metadata?  Is that the parameters of the policies that take parameters?15:51
doronMikeSpreitzer: I may need some more info on your suggestion, but I can look into it later.15:51
debo_osthats undefined15:51
debo_osfor now15:51
debo_osits defined by the implementation15:51
Yathiits a placeholder for any random attributes I guess15:51
MikeSpreitzerWhat does metadata look like?  To what is it attached?  Why do you want it?15:51
Yathiyou can think of it that way15:51
garykit would be nice if we could get the api on paper so people could see it and think of issues and problems15:51
Yathiin python a simple dictionary ?15:51
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MikeSpreitzerSo we can attach a general dictionary to any vertex in the graph?15:52
garykthe metdata will just be key/value pairs15:52
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MikeSpreitzerIs there convergence on this: a VRT is a graph, with policies applied to vertices and edges (which are directed), metadata applied to vertices.  A vertex can be a resource or another VRT.15:53
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MikeSpreitzerAnd the API will get all the relevant VRTs at once.15:54
MikeSpreitzerSo it can work on all of the at once.15:55
garykwe are running out of time. debo_os would it be possible you write up the api and share it with everyone and we can discuss in more detail next week15:55
debo_ossure ...15:55
debo_oswould love to rope in mike and yathi too15:55
debo_osbut I take teh aI15:55
garykgreat. anyone else want to help debo_os write this up15:55
MikeSpreitzersure.  Let's agree on when/how to talk15:55
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Yathiwould love to work with Debo on this15:56
garykcool. i'll jump in too15:56
Yathithis is one set of API15:56
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MikeSpreitzerWe didn't get to 2 or 315:56
debo_osgaryk: you would have been there even if you hadn't volunteered :) we would have dragged u15:56
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Yathiwhat about the API to the other parts of the big vision15:56
MikeSpreitzerAny quick feedback on using host aggregates to convey location structure?15:57
garykYathi: once we have the foundations we can try and map it to all of the use cases we can think of15:57
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debo_osok so we have agreement wrt API?15:58
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garykMikeSpreitzer: are you talking about a user configuration of having the aggregate report the 'proximity'15:58
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debo_osonly the high level VRTs etc15:58
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MikeSpreitzerI'm getting to the questions of the other APIs.  The scheduler will need location info, so how is that represented/discovered/conveyed?15:59
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garykMikeSpreitzer: that is certainly something that we need to discuss15:59
Yathiwe will not address the how it is discovered yet..15:59
garyki think that we are out of time. can we continue offline or next week?15:59
MikeSpreitzerOne direction would be to define some key:value pairs to use in host aggregates, use host aggregates to represent the structure of the datacenter15:59
Yathibut represented and conveyed is something to tackle first15:59
MikeSpreitzerI'll be watching the ML16:00
garykok. great.16:00
garykthank guys16:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct  1 16:00:25 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduling/2013/scheduling.2013-10-01-15.08.html16:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduling/2013/scheduling.2013-10-01-15.08.txt16:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduling/2013/scheduling.2013-10-01-15.08.log.html16:00
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primeministerp#startmeeting hyper-v16:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct  1 16:00:41 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is primeministerp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v'16:00
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primeministerphi everyone16:00
primeministerpwe'll wait a 5 min for others to join16:01
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primeministerppnavarro: hi pedro16:02
pnavarrohi primeministerp !16:02
ociuhanduhello all16:02
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primeministerpociuhandu: hi tavi16:02
primeministerpso I don't have much to talk about today16:02
alexpilottihi everybody!16:02
primeministerpfigure we have a quick status update16:03
primeministerpI was hoping to to talk some puppet w/ luis16:03
alexpilottipnavarro: hi pnavarro, nice to see you! :-)16:03
primeministerpif he joins16:03
pnavarroheyy alexpilotti, I hope you are doing well !16:03
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pnavarrobtw, do you have any video about crowbar - Hyper-v integration?16:04
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alexpilottipnavarro: doing well here! Am I going to see you in HK?16:04
pnavarrosure alexpilotti !16:04
alexpilottipnavarro: not yet (video)16:05
alexpilottiwe're planning to prepare a webcast soon16:05
alexpilottidid you see the Suse announcement BTW?16:06
pnavarrocongrats !16:06
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alexpilottiso most probably we'll do a webcast using SUSE Cloud16:06
alexpilottiand maybe a separate one directly on Crowbar (deployed from tree)16:06
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alexpilottizehicle: ping16:07
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pnavarrohow is openvswitch windows porting going?16:08
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alexpilottipnavarro: userspace almost done16:08
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alexpilottipnavarro: working on the NDIS design now16:09
pnavarrogreat !16:09
alexpilottiwe needed also to pot the buildsystem16:09
alexpilottiwe used cmake for that16:09
alexpilottiand we had to redo ALL the darn POSIX stuff of course :-)16:10
alexpilottias we wanted to avoid Cygwin ;-)16:10
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alexpilottiwe also moved lately to Visual STudio 201316:10
alexpilottias they added some good support to C9916:10
pnavarrowow wow16:10
alexpilottiwhich is used quite widely  by OVS16:10
pnavarronice stuff16:11
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alexpilottilots of work!16:11
primeministerpalexpilotti: thanks for the update16:11
alexpilottigoing to publish the tree very soon16:11
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schwichtalexpilotti: (hi btw) will you publish all the files needed to build the service? (project files etc) ?16:14
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alexpilottischwicht: hi!16:15
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alexpilottischwicht: what service? (I might have missed some chats at the beginning)16:15
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alexpilottischwicht: OVS? yes sure16:16
schwichtI do not know any of your OVS implementtation at the moment, I had been guessing you need some sort of windows service to do this16:16
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alexpilottiit's an NDIS kernel driver16:17
alexpilottiand some userspace tools16:18
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alexpilottiat the moment we are wrapping the exes that need to run in daemon state (ovsdb) in a Windows service in a way similar to what we did on OpenStack16:19
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alexpilottiwe still have to finalise the details, if they'll run as separate services or wrapped16:19
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schwichtI would have expected the management of a service to be somewhat cleaner if not forked ...16:20
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alexpilottias I was saying we have to finalise the detials16:20
pnavarroit's nice because the interoperability with projects like OpenDaylight will be straight forward16:20
schwichtgiven that you run binary code anyway16:20
alexpilotticonsider also that all the code will become part of the OVS tree16:20
schwichtgreat news!16:21
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alexpilotticurrently we had to fork because16:21
alexpilotti1) we needed to work on a stable version16:21
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schwichtalexpilotti:  is there a release target for that?16:21
alexpilotti2) we had to redo the build system16:21
alexpilottibut we plan to merge the work on the OVS tree16:21
alexpilottiwe're of course in close contact w the project mantainers16:22
schwichtwhat is your timeline for that?16:22
schwichtwithin icehouse ?16:22
alexpilottischwicht: Timing is very tight, but we'd love to have a working demo in HK16:22
alexpilottiand possible a beta by the end of the year16:22
alexpilottiI cannot make any promise yet16:23
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schwichtalexpilotti: I just want to avoid being caught by surpise like I did with your amzing WMIv2 progress ... :-) and be prepared for the 2014 plan16:23
alexpilottischwicht: we spoke about WMIv2 here for ages! ;-)16:24
schwichtI know ..16:24
alexpilottiyou didn't believe that we were going to pull it off so fast? :-)16:24
alexpilottijust kidding of course16:24
schwichtalexpilotti: there was the statement "there is no way we can do that before icehouse" and I put it into our backlog :-)16:25
alexpilottischwicht: btw one of your guys is helping in reviewing the VHDX snapshot patch16:26
schwichtis your long term vision to just allow for a OVS neutron agent, or is there a use case to keep the  current hyperV one?16:26
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alexpilottiwould he be able to join us during these meetings or it'd too late for him?16:26
schwichtalexpilotti: there is some national holiday going on in China16:26
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schwichtdo you have the name?16:27
alexpilottithe plan is to use the vanilla OVS agent16:27
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primeministerpso guys16:28
primeministerpanything else we need to discuss16:28
alexpilottischwicht: ChangBo Guo16:28
primeministerpi wanted to talk to talk puppet bits w/ luis but looks like he didn't make it16:29
primeministerpok then16:30
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primeministerpI'll end if no one has additoinal comments16:30
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:30
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct  1 16:30:41 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:30
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-10-01-16.00.html16:30
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-10-01-16.00.txt16:30
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-10-01-16.00.log.html16:30
primeministerpthanks everyone16:30
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alexpilottisorry, meant GuoHui LIu16:31
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ayoungRed Alert!  Put the Kettle On!17:59
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ayoungStand By to feed the cat!17:59
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ayoungAll present and accounted for!18:01
dolphmlol, in taht case-18:01
dolphm#startmeeting keystone18:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct  1 18:01:54 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:01
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dolphm#topic Re-opening for icehouse!18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Re-opening for icehouse! (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/48971/18:02
dolphmeveryone should read the commit message here ^18:02
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dolphmafter this change merges, master becomes icehouse18:02
bknudsonis there a release of python-keystoneclient, too?18:02
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dolphmbknudson: i've been holding off on v0.3.3 due to a couple little blockers, but i'd like to do a coincidental release18:03
dolphmbknudson: there's nothing 'havana' about the client though18:03
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bknudsonwould be nice to get https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+bug/1195924 one in keystoneclient18:03
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1195924 in python-keystoneclient "expiration check is using different timezone other than UTC" [Medium,In progress]18:03
dolphmbknudson: targeted to v0.3.318:03
dolphmbknudson: i'll make sure we follow up18:03
bknudsondolphm: thanks!18:04
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dolphmas of a few minutes ago, our last RC blocker merged18:05
dolphm#link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/havana-rc118:05
dolphmwell done, everyone!18:05
dolphmmorganfainberg: thanks for your help kicking the gate over the weekend :)18:05
bknudsonthe gate was kicking us badly18:06
dolphmbknudson: yeah, transient failures have been *bad* this release, IMO18:06
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morganfainbergwe got it done, thats the important part.18:06
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dolphmmorganfainberg: ++18:06
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dolphmalso on the thank-you front...18:06
dolphm#topic OpenStack Identity API Documentation Kudos18:06
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Identity API Documentation Kudos (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:06
dolphmi think this was on the agenda last week, but i totally glossed over it18:06
dolphmfor everyone that has contributed to openstack identity-api, you have an open letter thank you on the mailing list :)18:07
dolphm#link http://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg04761.html18:07
bknudsonwe need this otherwise everybody will keep using v218:07
dolphmbknudson: ++18:07
dolphmdocs win users, hands down18:07
ayoungI started this http://adam.younglogic.com/2013/09/keystone-v3-api-examples/18:08
lbragstaddolphm: ++18:08
ayoungand it was pretty much a straight lift off the Identity API docs.18:08
dolphmayoung: cool! i've gotten several requests for more curl-based examples18:08
morganfainbergayoung, awsome!18:08
dolphmapparently those were quite popular with v218:09
ayoungdolphm, yeah, I've fielded a couple myself.  I'd like to get a wider array out there.  I'll take shardy's recent ones for trusts ,for example18:09
morganfainbergdolphm, ++ i still use the V2 ones when testing things or explaining it to my coworkers18:09
bknudsonI don't know what some of these are... HP-IDM-serviceId Extended Parameter18:09
topolayoung I like how you updated it for how to handle the big PKI tokens using the variable. very helpful18:09
ayoungtopol, thanks18:10
topoldolphm, curl examples are hugely helpful!18:10
dolphmtopol: ++ we need to advocate that approach (and probably revise old docs)18:10
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bknudsonwhat happens to those extensions if we deprecate v2?18:10
ayoungif you guys have any others, send them to me and I'll add them to the post, or link to yours.  I assume that annegentle will eventually come ask to have them officially documented up18:11
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bknudsonone problem with the existing docs is that they reference keystone CLI a lot.18:11
bknudsonkeystone user-create --name=alice ...18:12
bknudsonso do we change those to openstack ?18:12
dolphmbknudson: i'm hoping to advocate for a *strong* shift there in a few openstack-manuals sessions at the summit18:12
dolphmbknudson: yes18:12
bknudsonI'm not sure that openstack is even "supported" yet18:13
dolphmbknudson: the goal was to have it in end user's hands around havana's release18:13
annegentledolphm: bknudson: I'm not sure the openstack CLI belongs in official docs yet18:13
bknudsonas in, a promise of backwards-compatibilty18:13
bknudsonso we could put curl examples in the docs.18:13
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annegentlethat said it'd be great to document one CLI18:13
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dolphmannegentle: i'm hoping the project will be where it needs to be do land in docs :)18:13
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ayoungsince we are talking client...did everyone see jamielennox 's post this morning..he's been working on this for a while.  \18:14
bknudsonayoung: link?18:15
ayoungbknudson, ugh...I have it in email...one sec18:15
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dolphm(i'm going to move on in the mean time)18:15
dolphm#topic Havana release notes18:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Havana release notes (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:15
dolphm#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ReleaseNotes/Havana#OpenStack_Identity_.28Keystone.2918:15
dolphmi took a stab a couple weeks ago at documenting the big stuff from havana18:15
morganfainbergugh. that got caught by my spam filter.18:16
dolphmi left several blueprints linked taht should probably be documented but that i haven't gotten to, anyone is welcome to replace those with actual notes!18:16
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dolphmi'm not very good at spelling taht today18:16
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ayoung#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-October/015839.html18:17
dolphmi probably lied or typo'd about something in there, or forgot about your feature completely, so feel free to append, revise, etc18:17
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lbragstaddolphm: I can revise the unified logging link with a description18:17
dolphmlbragstad: thanks! i wasn't sure how to document the deployer-facing impact of that18:18
jamielennoxdolphm: token binding is missing - i can do it18:18
ayoungEndpoint filtering has come up a couple times today. I'll take a swing at that one18:18
ayoung#action ayoung add release not for endpoint filtering18:19
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dolphmthanks all ^18:20
dolphm#topic python-keystoneclient18:20
*** openstack changes topic to "python-keystoneclient (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:20
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dolphmas mentioned earlier, there's a few bugs targeted at v0.3.3-18:20
dolphm#link https://launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+milestone/0.3.318:20
dolphmi'd appreciate everyone's help to start reviewing those changes so we can get the client released asap18:21
dolphmthere's also been some weird bugs, including a transient failure in auth_token causing a few rechecks18:21
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dolphm#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+bug/121773418:21
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1217734 in python-keystoneclient "FAIL: setUpClass (tempest.api.compute.servers.test_server_rescue.ServerRescueTestXML Unauthorized) " [High,New]18:21
dolphmadded to v0.3.3 so we can at least investigate it ^18:22
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dolphmbut that may be dependent on this- https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+bug/111278418:22
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1112784 in python-keystoneclient "openssl cms error does not raise an exception or log the problem" [High,Triaged]18:22
jamielennoxdamn, hadn't seen that one yet18:22
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dolphm#topic open discussion18:24
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:24
dolphmas we rapidly head towards icehouse, there's also a bunch of bp implementations already in review (linked in meeting agenda)18:24
gyeedolphm, can you add this one to keystoneclient 0.3.3 if possible? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/47661/18:24
dolphmthose will need attention18:24
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dolphmi'll also be taking a pass to unblock a bunch of -2'd reviews from feature freeze, as soon as we're open for icehouse18:25
jamielennoxgyee: i still don't think that is the right approach18:25
ayoungdolphm, I can take https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+bug/111278418:25
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1112784 in python-keystoneclient "openssl cms error does not raise an exception or log the problem" [High,Triaged]18:25
jamielennoxi'm not sure how to do it better without a fairly significant refactor, but it seems wrong to need another config option for that18:26
gyeejamielennox, what refactoring you have in mind?18:27
jamielennoxgyee: many things, but mainly just don't request a token until you need a token18:27
ayounggyee, shouldn't admin_token be an additional auth method under keystone/auth/plugins  and so it can be removed from the list?18:27
jamielennoxunfortunately we need a token for fetching revocation lists so both PKI and UUID tokens still require an admin token18:27
gyeeI am just making admin_token request optional18:28
ayoungjamielennox, well, no18:28
ayoungjamielennox, that can be done with RBAC, too18:28
ayoungand probably should be done with RBAC18:28
ayoungthe token needs to grant admin privs, but that is different from an ADMIN_TOKEN config option18:29
gyeeits not even an admin token per say18:29
jamielennoxayoung: but nobody is doing it with RBAC because that's not how we tell people to set it up18:29
ayounggyee, why is the current option of removing it from the config file not sufficient?18:29
dolphmgyee: (i don't really want to block a point release on a new feature unless it's actually causing a blocker for another project)18:29
gyeetoken which have the roles to validate another token18:29
gyeedolphm, 0.3.4 then?18:30
ayounggyee, I think we can do what you are describing there within the existing mechanisms.18:30
dolphmgyee: features are done when they're done :)18:30
dolphmgyee: if it was merged, i'd be happy to do a release to get it out there18:30
gyeedolphm, k, that's fine18:30
ayoungjamielennox, so education of the user base is a big topic.  So far, we've identified that devstack is the first step....maybe we should BP up a bettter RBAC setup for that. Does devstack use the cloud policy file yet?18:31
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dolphmthis one is essentially a wishlist item that's a blocker for heat https://review.openstack.org/#/c/48462/18:31
gyeeayoung, how do I use existing mechanism to skip admin token?18:31
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jamielennoxayoung: i'm pretty sure they have admin service users18:31
jamielennoxas devstack is all v218:32
topolgyee++ I would love to know that as well. is that in an ayoung blog somewhere?18:32
gyeetechnically, token validation token18:32
dolphmgyee: using a known token and endpoint?18:32
jamielennoxgyee: you can't, i think he meant to request a non-admin token you just change user/pass18:32
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ayounggyee, you need to have a Role, and that role needs to be used in the policy file in keystone.18:32
ayoungthe Nova user, instead of using an admin token, can use a regular token18:32
gyeedolphm, that's my alternative, essentially putting a dummy token in there18:33
dolphmgyee: dummy?18:33
dolphmgyee: which would raise 401 from keystone?18:33
gyeewe use SSL certificate auth instead of admin token18:33
jamielennoxgyee: given that you need a validation token for revocation lists how is it going to work18:33
jamielennoxah, right18:34
gyeejamielennox, we use 2 way SSL18:34
dolphmgyee: why not just configure admin_token with a artificially long-lived token?18:34
gyeeApache then translate it into a service user context18:34
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gyeedolphm, our security call for service account rotation18:34
jamielennoxgyee: that's cool, i would love to get that into keystone proper18:34
gyeewe need to rotate the certs18:35
ayounggyee, so, really you want a way to tell auth_token to use SSL client cert.   Now, that I can get get behind18:35
gyeeno hardcode passwords18:35
gyeeayoung,, absolutely18:35
gyeewe are not allowed to have passwords in conf files18:35
ayounggyee, but...why not Client cert to get admin token, and then use token binding?18:35
dolphmgyee: right, i mean underneath ssl18:35
jamielennoxgyee: so is storing some fake data in AUTH_TOKEN a problem or just an inconvenience?18:36
gyeeayoung, that's precisely what we are doing18:36
gyeetrade in ssl cert for a token18:36
gyeeat the server side18:36
gyeeI just need a way to turn off admin_token request at the middleware18:36
ayounggyee  OK, I see what you are getting at...18:36
topolgyee, ayoung, what you are describing sounds like an interesting pattern. Is this a to be statement to be written up in a blueprint?18:37
ayounggyee, but your code doesn't look right18:37
ayoungtopol, well, bascially, this is the problem that jamielennox was addressing in the client work18:37
ayoungwe need to make a client library that supports multiple auth methods18:38
gyeeayoung, ++18:38
ayoungand we need to make auth_token, and the CLIs, both use that library18:38
jamielennoxayoung: ++++++++++++18:38
gyeebut a the meantime, I need something to turn off admin token request18:38
nachi1ayoungL +118:38
topolayoung, is there a blueprint for jamielennox work on this?18:38
gyeewe can remote that change once we have plugin support in keystoneclient18:38
ayoungtopol, multiple18:38
jamielennoxtopol: there has been a few18:38
gyeebaby steps :)18:39
ayounggyee, why do you only support password?18:39
topoljamielennox can you send me some pointers to the blueprints?18:39
jamielennoxthe post that was mentioned earlier is describing the APIClient stuff - and at the moment i'm making everything hinge upon that18:39
ayoung#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-October/015839.html18:39
ayoungto link it yet again18:40
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jamielennoxtopol: most aren't overly fleshed out, just areas or work at the moment:18:40
gyeeayoung, what do you mean we only support password?18:40
jamielennoxtopol: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+spec/consolidate-cli-auth18:41
ayounggyee, either the method is password or you raise an exception18:41
gyeeayoung, just for now, we can expand it18:41
ayounghttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/47661/3/keystoneclient/middleware/auth_token.py line 73418:41
gyeesee the code comment18:41
gyeeI am just paving a way for pluggable auth18:41
gyeepassword is just a start18:42
ayounggyee, that is useless.  I don't see how it serves your need, as you will still need custom code to fetch a cert.  Make the code support the X509 use case and It will make a lot more sense.18:42
jamielennoxbut pretty much every blueprint i've filed under keystoneclient (like version discovery) came from this problem18:42
gyeecode already support x.50918:42
gyeeyou can configure SSL today18:42
jamielennoxclient side SSL in auth_token?18:43
bknudsongyee: you can tell auth_token to use a client cert?18:43
ayounggyee, I can't see that from the patch you submitted18:43
gyeejamielennox, yes18:43
jamielennoxgyee: huh, didn't know that18:43
gyeebknudson, yes18:43
bknudsonok, interesting18:43
gyeerequests lib supports 2-way ssl18:43
ayounggyee, it sounds like, at a minimum, you need "none" or "no password"18:43
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gyeeayoung, if it makes sure a happier man, I can change it to a boolean, need_admin_token or something18:44
ayounggyee, with your patch, what would I set admin_token_auth_method to?18:44
ayoungNone?  Ah..oh yuck18:44
gyeeayoung, set it to an empty string to skip admin token request18:45
ayoungok...I see what you are doing...um...don't like the illusion of plugability there18:45
morganfainbergboolean enable_auth_token18:45
gyeeI can change it to a boolean18:45
ayounggyee, but...that code never requests a token, then, right?18:45
bknudsonmake it pluggable18:45
morganfainbergerm enable_admin_token18:45
topol"illusion of pluggability" :-) nice18:45
morganfainbergmake it pluggable in the future?18:45
gyeethat's what I was aiming for18:46
gyeepluggable in the future18:46
jamielennoxgyee: so my main concern is having to support the config option over time, not that it is a hack - most of auth_token is a hack18:46
morganfainbergdepends on the timeline(s) we are talking about if it should be boolean or string18:46
gyeeat least the illusion of pluggable :)18:46
bknudsonbut a plugin would be a module reference18:46
ayounggyee, what you should be saying is user REOMTE_USER to fetc h an admin token18:46
jamielennoxif i can get keystoneclient into auth_token i'm not sure how to deal with the config option18:46
morganfainbergbknudson, aye,18:46
ayoungI don't think that what you have there is supported without custom plugins on the Keystone side, is it?18:46
gyeeayoung, no need to even fetch admin_token, its all done at the server side18:47
dolphmjamielennox: ++18:47
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gyeetrade in client cert for admin token18:47
ayounggyee, I suspect  you have custom code on the server side18:47
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gyeeayoung, yes, custom middleware18:47
ayoungwe don't allow admin calls without a token18:47
ayounggyee, BUSTED!18:47
ayounggyee, um, yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you there Bob18:48
dolphm(havana->icehouse version bump is 6th in the gate! only about an hour left until it fails and we have to try again.)18:48
gyeeayoung, what's the problem?18:48
ayounggyee, OTOH, I would love to see that custom middleware submitted as a contrib18:48
morganfainbergdolphm, so optimistic18:48
gyeeayoung, yes18:48
ayounggyee, you submitted code that only you can use18:48
dolphmmorganfainberg: hey, we have experience at this18:48
morganfainbergdolphm, i didn't say unrealistic did i? :P18:49
dolphmmorganfainberg: p.s. i also wrote a tool called watch-review lol18:49
* topol loving the office space reference18:49
ayounggyee, OTOH, I am headed in the same direction...I would love it if Keystone didn't need a token for operations, but instead used standard Web Auth methods for things that currently can be done unscoped...so18:49
topolayoung, ++ is  there time at the summit to discuss?18:50
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gyeeayoung, sure, filter is pretty easy, just map the client ssl cert to a service admin account18:50
ayoungthat patch fetches a token based on basic-auth and stores it in a cookie.  We want the same kind of thing from SSL Client cert auth18:50
jamielennoxgyee: so your middleware is doing what: taking client cert serial or hash and converting to a token header?18:50
gyeejamielennox, precisely18:51
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jamielennoxhacky, but a nice one18:51
ayoungjamielennox, not hacky...it is how would should have done Keystone from the start.  Using the standards as opposed to inventing our own.  Sportsmanlike18:51
gyeehey, works for me18:52
jamielennoxmmm, it's hacky having it used as a token18:52
jamielennoxbut a nice idea18:52
bknudsonthe cert could be the token18:52
gyeebknudson, yes18:52
jamielennoxbknudson: yes, and on the list for Icehouse was a client cert auth method18:53
ayoungjamielennox, not really.  The problem is the term toekn.  A token is really a general purpose term.  Our tokens are "remote references to authentication objects"18:53
gyeebknudson, that how CERN is doing with their federation right?18:53
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gyeetrade in SSL cert for token18:53
ayoungand from that perspective, it makes a lot of sense.18:53
jamielennoxi'm just wondering if it's possible to ditch the token completely with client certs and i dont think so18:53
ayounggyee, and bind the token to the SSL cert18:53
gyeeayoung, sure18:53
ayoungjamielennox, no, they serve different purposes.18:54
ayoungClient cert is "who are you"  token is "what are you doing in my living room?"18:54
gyeeayoung, so can we get that patch going now?18:54
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jamielennoxayoung: got that, but if you use client cert serial number, you're essentially using a UUID token18:55
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bknudsonauth_token could send client cert to keystone token and get back roles18:55
bknudsonkeystone token verify18:55
gyeebknudson, yes, it would be one of the REMOTE_USER auth18:56
bknudsonlike a UUID token18:56
jamielennoxbknudson: you can't forward a client cert, but you can forward the details like a UUID token18:56
gyeeREMOTE_USER allows you to map anything into a token18:56
gyeewe support that today18:56
bknudsonjamielennox: right, should have said client cert serial or DN or whatever.18:56
ayounggyee, and that is what your patch should specify18:56
Haneef-Before going with client cert, we need to come up with  supported platforms.  Client cert header names are not same across all servers. Also it will vary depending on wheter u are offloading ssl in loadbalancer or  it is configured as ssl brdige?18:57
jamielennoxgyee: my problem is that we are going to want to deprecate this config option relatively quickly18:57
ayoungadmin_token_auth_methods is in ['password','external']18:57
gyeeayoung, sure, I am down with that18:57
gyeewait, external?18:58
jamielennoxayoung: ?18:58
ayounggyee, the thing is, that could be used with the existing auth, doesn't need custom middleware.  It will still cost you an additional round-trip unless you cache the returned token18:58
gyeejamielennox, we are constantly refactoring anyway :)18:58
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jamielennoxgyee: sure, but a config option has to be supported long term18:58
ayounggyee, I think that was what it was called inteh keystone/auth/controller.py18:58
gyeedidn't dolphm say disposable code? :)18:58
jamielennoxayoung: external is not a thing in keystoneclient18:59
ayounggyee, https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/auth/controllers.py#L33418:59
dolphmgyee: disposable implementations still need to maintain compatibility :)18:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct  1 18:59:34 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-10-01-18.01.html18:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-10-01-18.01.txt18:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-10-01-18.01.log.html18:59
jamielennoxdolphm: nice exit18:59
jeblairhello infra folks19:00
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jeblairclarkb, fungi, mordred: ping19:00
fungistill here, as noted above ;)19:01
jeblair#startmeeting infra19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct  1 19:01:16 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:01
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jeblairagenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting19:01
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jeblairlast meeting: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-09-24-19.00.html19:01
jeblair#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting19:01
jeblair#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-09-24-19.00.html19:01
jeblair#topic actions from last meeting19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
jeblair#action jeblair move tarballs.o.o and include 50gb space for heat/trove images19:02
jeblairi did not do that19:02
jeblairas it turns out, friday was very busy.19:02
jeblairi'll try again later when things are a bit calmer.19:02
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jeblairthe other action item we can handle in a different topic19:03
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jeblair#topic Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap)19:04
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jeblairmordred: you were going to understand and explain the mysterious caching issue with the heat/trove test plan19:04
jeblairmordred: what's the latest there? and what is trove testing blocked on?19:04
mordredsorry I'm late19:04
mordredjeblair: I have not achieved my task. I still need to understand and explain the mysterious caching issue19:05
mordredlifeless: around?19:05
hub_capjeblair: i have achieved my task of waiting19:05
pleia2mordred: he's running the tripleo meeting19:05
mordredah. wow. what a poorly timed meeting overlap19:06
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mordredjeblair: I will raise sorting that on my tdl19:06
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lifelessmordred: in the tripleo meeting19:06
fungiclearly a popular meeting time19:07
jeblairmordred: is it true that we can't or should not proceed with anything in https://etherpad.openstack.org/testing-heat-trove-with-dib until you understand this issue?19:07
lifelessmordred: it's not mysterious, we want to cache further along than just 'we downloaded stuff'19:07
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mordredlifeless: the details are a thing we want to dig more in to - because dib is not going to make use of pre-downloaded base images in the way that we would pre-download them right now19:08
mordredlifeless: I believe there is a dib task identified to be able to be pointed at a locally downloaded pre-cached base image19:09
mordredjeblair: if we proceed without the sorting thing, each build job will download a base image from canonical and redhat directly19:10
mordredwithout sorting the caching thing19:10
lifelessdepending on what you mean we either already have that19:10
lifelessor there is no task identified.19:10
mordredyou did the work we talked about in Seattle already?19:10
lifelessthere may be confusion19:11
mordredgreat. we will convene to sort it out19:11
jeblairmordred: when?19:11
mordredwhen we can do it with higherbandwidth19:11
mordredjeblair: how about right after tripleo and infra stop meeting19:11
mordredlifeless: ?19:11
* mordred assumes silence to be assent19:12
lifelessmordred: I have the OSRB then19:12
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lifelessmordred: but today, certainly.19:12
mordredjeblair: we will sort that out today19:12
jeblair#action mordred understand and explain the mysterious caching issue with the heat/trove test plan19:12
jeblairhub_cap: any further thoughts?19:13
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jeblair#topic Tripleo testing (mordred, clarkb, lifeless)19:14
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jeblairmordred, lifeless: any progress on plan C?19:14
jeblairor otherwise anything we should chat about?19:15
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mordredjeblair: nothing really to chat about - plans are underway to get plan C moving19:15
lifelessjeblair: your thoughts on the tripleo mail I sent yesterday would be appreciated19:16
lifelessjeblair: from a 'implications to the openstack project' perspective19:16
mordredjeblair: also, lifeless sent an email yesterday to openstack-dev outlining a plan around plan c related things19:16
hub_capjeblair: nosir19:16
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lifelessjeblair: tl;dr we're proposing a group of people running a production cloud deployed tripleo style, per commit, with atc's getting credentials19:16
lifelessjeblair: and the use of kanban to manage wip and changes to that environment19:17
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lifelessjeblair: (the tie-in to plan C is that this is common infrastructure to the proposed cloud-test setup19:17
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fungihaving a non-proprietary kanban would be high up the list of preferences, i think19:20
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* fungi is not a huge fan of trello for this, but i guess it's a stopgap19:21
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fungiperhaps that's something which would eventually meld well with storyboard19:22
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mordredyah. lifeless and I had a chat about that where I expressed concerns about trello - he said (and says at the bottom of the  email in the footnote) the idea with the kanban is to experiment to see if it's worth pursing in an infra way and with infra19:22
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mordredbefore asking infra to provide a thing which may actually not be something that's helpful19:22
jeblair_we should be careful with that19:22
mordredand yes, I agree -might give good feedback on storyboard features19:23
mordredjeblair_: I could not possibly agree more19:23
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jeblair_we've asked projects to stop using trello and similar services before because tool proliferation is not helpful to a unified project19:23
jeblair_but experimentation is important19:23
jeblair_we're probably on the same page.  just reiterating.19:23
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fungislippery slope19:24
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SergeyLukjanovunified project template w/ all tools like kanbans and etc. is a dream for all new projects19:24
mordredI think it's clear that trello is a non-starter long term19:24
SergeyLukjanovand not for only new19:24
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lifelessso, for the record19:25
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lifelessthe existing tools in the openstack suite are a poor fit for visualising wip and operational status19:25
lifelesswe don't /like/ trello19:25
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lifelessand will be delighted, if the experiment concludes with 'yes, kanban solves the issues we're trying to solve'19:26
lifelessto work closely with infra to get an openstack-suitable kanban in place.19:26
fungino argument from me, i understand it's a pragmatic choice for the moment19:26
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jeblairso to bring this back on topic; how does this interact with the tripleo test plan?19:27
jeblairlifeless, mordred: ?19:27
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lifelessthe tripleo test plan has a big handwave of 'tripleo will provide a cloud'19:27
mordredjeblair: the cloud they are planing to spin up is part of the first steps of plan c19:27
lifelessthis is an enabler for that19:27
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lifelesswe don't need anything from infra at this point, but wanted you to be aware of how we're structuring things19:27
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jeblairlifeless: makes sense.  i like the general direction of open ops.19:29
jeblairanything else on this topic?19:30
lifelessjeblair: and *if* you have concerns about e.g. reliability of the test results etc from the open ops setup, we'd rather know sooner than later19:30
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lifelessjeblair: the other aspect is once we're a bit more mature19:30
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lifelesswe'll have an OpenStack cloud infra can use if they want.19:30
lifelessWe will let you know when it's reliable enough that you wouldn't be crazy to put stuff in it.19:30
jeblairlifeless: that would be great.  we're, uh, happy to help drive load.  :)19:31
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mordredwe are a lean-mean-load-generating-machine19:32
fungimore mean than lean19:33
jeblairemphasis on mean19:33
jeblair#topic Savanna migration from stackforge to openstack org19:33
* mordred is getting pudgy19:33
*** openstack changes topic to "Savanna migration from stackforge to openstack org (Meeting topic: infra)"19:33
jeblairSergeyLukjanov: hi there19:33
SergeyLukjanovI've prepared https://review.openstack.org/#/c/48491/19:33
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/48491/19:33
* ttx breaks for 13 min19:34
jeblairso we just need to schedule a downtime for the gerrit renaming19:34
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* mordred is in north carolina this weekend at a wedding19:35
fungimy event coordinator says i'm free all weekend19:35
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jeblairi think i should be available sat/sun morning19:36
mordredI _may_ be able to help on Saturday, but don't really know specific schedule. I'll certainly help if I'm not off being weddinged19:36
SergeyLukjanovit'll be good for us (savanna team) to do it this weekend19:36
jeblairwe're in the middle of the rc window...19:36
jeblairbut based on last weekends load, i think we can handle having a bit of weekend downtime19:36
mordredyah. most of last weekend was me19:37
mordredtrying to get wheels working19:37
anteayaand versioning19:37
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SergeyLukjanovcould I help with smth from my side?19:38
fungiSergeyLukjanov: your change wraps puppet-savanna in with the rest of the work... is that part of the savanna project or part of the openstack-puppet group's work on stackforge?19:38
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SergeyLukjanovfungi, we're working on puppet manifests for savanna and I hope that we'll publish them soon19:39
jeblairso how about saturday 'morning'?  oct 5 1600 utc?19:39
* mordred believes puppet-savanna should stay in stackforge - we don't have any precedence in the project for chef or puppet things being considered core project code19:39
fungijeblair: wfm19:39
SergeyLukjanovit's not a part of openstack-puppet group19:39
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SergeyLukjanovmordred, good point, I'll move it back19:39
mordredSergeyLukjanov: thanks! (obviously, you can keep savanna-core having core on it if that makes sense for you guys)19:40
SergeyLukjanovjeblair, wfm too19:40
jeblairSergeyLukjanov: sounds good.  i think puppet or chef deliverables would be a scope expansion for the tc to consider19:40
jeblairSergeyLukjanov: cool, it'll be good to have you around to help make sure everything works after the move19:40
lifelesswait, puppet or chef?19:40
SergeyLukjanovjeblair, it's just puppet manifests for savanna installation19:41
lifelessSergeyLukjanov: I thought savanna used disk-image-builder?19:41
mordredyah. but we've deliberately kept those non-openstack so far19:41
mordredlifeless: I believe he means to deploy savanna, not for use by savanna19:41
lifelessmordred: that would be heat then19:41
SergeyLukjanovlifeless, yep19:42
SergeyLukjanovwe're using dib to build images used by savanna19:42
fungiyeah, puppet-savanna seems like something which could also benefit from closer work with the stackforge/puppet-.* devs long term, for added ecosystem consistency19:42
SergeyLukjanovand puppet to install savanna19:42
mordredfungi: ++19:42
mordredSergeyLukjanov: makes sense to me19:42
SergeyLukjanovI think it's ok to keep puppet-savanna in stackforge for now19:42
SergeyLukjanovbye it's empty now19:43
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SergeyLukjanovwe already have worked manifest but it depends on some mirantis internal stuff19:43
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jeblair#action jeblair announce gerrit downtime oct 5 1600 utc for savanna rename19:44
SergeyLukjanovI have a question about docs19:44
jeblairfungi, mordred: can you think of any other maint we should do during then?19:44
SergeyLukjanovis it ok to publish them to docs.o.o?19:44
mordredannegentle_ loves docs questions19:44
annegentle_I do!!!19:44
mordredI believe so - I think we've been publishing incubated tocs to doc.o.o so far yeah?19:44
fungijeblair: none springs to mind. maybe things will come up between now and then we can glom onto it19:44
jeblairmordred: i think so19:44
mordredjeblair: unless we want to move melange to stackforge, no19:45
SergeyLukjanov(I've added it due to the marconi config)19:45
mordred(and delete openstack-dev/openstack-qa which is a dead fish)19:45
annegentle_SergeyLukjanov: In the past we've published to docs.o.org/incubation but it's kind of a case-by-case19:45
mordredbut I don't care about either really19:45
jeblairannegentle_: for developer docs too?19:46
fungimordred: we can probably do those two additional things without needing to announce them, if we feel like it19:46
jeblairannegentle_: (eg, project docs rather than manuals)19:46
annegentle_jeblair: nah we haven't had it come up for project docs/ dev docs19:46
SergeyLukjanovI mean dev docs19:47
annegentle_jeblair: it was for API specs, user info, deployer info, and we've grown SO much since, I say we should probably come up with a set of guidelines19:47
jeblairannegentle_: i love guidelines.  ESPECIALLY published guidelines.  :)19:47
annegentle_jeblair: I'm not super comfortable with incubated projects getting an openstack.org domain, if I'm honest19:47
annegentle_jeblair: it feels like getting to use the brand19:47
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SergeyLukjanovreview.o.o and git.o.o are the same way for using brand)19:48
jeblairannegentle_: i know, though they are projects that have been accepted into a program by the tc, which is why we have been putting them in the openstack github org19:48
fungion the other hand it's unfortunate if we don't have any way to publish their documentation during incubation, other than to tell them to use rtfd or something19:48
annegentle_jeblair: oh well if that's the case, they're not incubating19:49
annegentle_jeblair: they're integrated19:49
annegentle_jeblair: sorry need more context :)19:49
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annegentle_fungi: I'm fine with rtfd19:49
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mordredannegentle_: nope. ingerated means they're part of the release - incubated means they get to be a thing we as a project are actually working on19:49
mordredbut... it's possible ...19:49
mordredthat the infra meeting is the wrong place to dig in to integrated/incubated branding semantics19:49
annegentle_mordred: I know that, what's SergeyLukjanov's project that we're talking about?19:50
mordred(other than the fact that all of us like talking about things)19:50
mordredannegentle_: savanna19:50
mordredannegentle_: recently voted in as incubated and we're scheduling the move to the openstack/ git org19:50
annegentle_mordred: Incubating -- my outline for docs would be quite conserving of resources19:51
annegentle_mordred: wiki and rtfd likely but would entertain other ideas19:51
mordredannegentle_: yah. I would not expect incubated projets to be covered by the docs team. you guys are busy enough as it is19:51
annegentle_mordred: we don't even cover integrated that well19:51
jeblairbut that's separate from whether they are permitted to publish their own docs to docs.o.o....19:52
mordredbut I think the question here is about docs.openstack.org/developer19:52
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mordredto push the in-tree sphinx docs19:52
SergeyLukjanovmordred, yep19:52
mordredfor instance19:52
mordredif that's not ok, we should probably circle back and make a plan19:52
jeblairbased on past practice, other currently incubated projects, the way that the git repos are organized, and i think the spirit of the incubation process, we should continue to let incubated projects publish to docs.o.o/developer....19:53
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SergeyLukjanovjeblair, it looks consistent I think19:53
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jeblair(by spirit of incubation process, i believe the common understanding is that the incubation period is when a project is expected to bring themselves inline with how openstack projects operate)19:54
mordredclarkb: you're alive!19:54
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clarkblunch happened. is now over19:54
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annegentle_mordred: I'm thinking /developer/ironic got in by us just saying 'don't publish to rtfd and docs.o.o"?19:55
annegentle_mordred: do I remember it wrong?19:55
annegentle_jeblair: good point19:55
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annegentle_and honestly I can't argue long or hard on a hard line for docs.o.org/developer -- the jobs and content aren't maintained by docs team but there are still perceptions about docs19:56
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annegentle_so it feels like a slippery slope19:57
mordredannegentle_: I have almost no memory of anything - and I don't like slippery slopes19:57
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annegentle_mordred: heh. me too19:57
fungithe alternative risk, also a slippery slope, is that we wind up with other places the project publishes documentation not covered by the docs team19:58
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jeblairi'd hate to think we're making it harder for projects to integrate, right as we're pushing them to be more proative in integrating before they become incubated19:58
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dhellmanncan we move them to developer.openstack.org so they aren't associated with the docs team?19:58
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jeblairbefore they become integrated, rather.19:58
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annegentle_dhellmann: might be useful but we get doc bugs on the wiki so who knows :)19:59
dhellmannannegentle_: welcome to the internet? ;-)19:59
annegentle_dhellmann: and, I'd kinda like to have that domain for devs building cool stuff on openstack19:59
annegentle_dhellmann: not developing openstack itself?19:59
annegentle_dhellmann: but yeah19:59
fungiwell, i think all projects get more than their share of miscategorized bugs, so that's probably not something we'll be able to put a stop to regardles19:59
dhellmannsure, that was just a suggested domain, there could be another19:59
dhellmannfungi: +119:59
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annegentle_dhellmann: ok sure19:59
mordredwhat about annegentle.openstack.org ?20:00
* mordred ducks20:00
annegentle_mordred: ha20:00
annegentle_how about a gated garden like facebook or google+ (facepalm)20:00
jeblairon that note20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct  1 20:00:26 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-10-01-19.01.html20:00
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-10-01-19.01.log.html20:00
annegentle_I should be more open and welcoming of content, eh? :)20:00
ttxPSA: No TC meeting this week.20:01
jeblairannegentle_: remember, you LIKE docs!  :)20:01
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dhellmannannegentle_: I get people asking me for help with their homework on pymotw.com, so I know your pain20:01
annegentle_jeblair: I only like good docs! And I tend to be overprotective of OpenStack! :)20:01
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mordredttx: wait! what if i wnat to meet ayway?20:02
ttxmordred: we already do.20:03
gabrielhurleysounds like a conspiracy20:03
ttxconfused now ?20:03
* mordred uhm20:03
ttxWho is going to win ? http://old-wiki.openstack.org/rc/20:03
fungisneak into #cabal and expose their secrets20:03
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ttxfor those following at home, Keystone had the lead but just got its last patch reset.20:04
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ttxNow Glance might win !20:04
gabrielhurleylol. Horizon will not, but we're close20:04
fungii should pop some popcorn for this20:04
gabrielhurleyI'm writing the last patch currently20:05
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fungigrr... ircnet bots fighting our bots. that's freaky20:06
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* anteaya puts down $5 on fungi20:14
fungiyou'll lose. i sleep sometimes20:14
anteayayou wake up again though20:14
anteayayou are a Taurus, I am confident with my choice20:15
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gabrielhurleyhmmm... maybe Horizon does have a chance... we've got 7 bugs total, all with fine patches, and only three aren't currently merging...20:17
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gabrielhurleyI take that back, only two aren't currently merging.20:24
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ttxdhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, jd__, markwash, jgriffith, russellb, shardy, gabrielhurley, markmcclain: around ?21:00
ttx#startmeeting project21:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct  1 21:01:27 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)"21:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'project'21:01
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting21:01
ttx#topic General stuff21:01
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ttxWe are still struggling with RC1 publication, mostly due to the bugs creating gate instability and slowing down merges21:01
ttxIf this continues we might need extraordinary measures21:02
ttxLike limiting APRV to RC1-targeted fixes (and gate fixes), at least until we get a few RC1s out21:02
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ttxbut there have been some improvement today, so we'll revisit the need for that later this week21:02
ttxand we should have glance and keystone out anytime now21:02
ttxsdague: Could you give us a quick status on the 3 top gate-f*cking offenders ?21:02
sdagueso they are moving around a little, but here is the latest elastic recheck results - http://paste.openstack.org/show/47784/21:03
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sdaguerealistically we had #1224001 go away mostly this morning21:03
sdaguewhich was the neutron bug that was masking everything else yesterday21:04
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russellbthere is one fix in flight with potential for the simultaneous read thing ... https://review.openstack.org/#/c/4921021:04
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ttxsdague: bug is still there but it doesn't affect non-neutron that much, right ?21:04
sdagueit's gone away because we stopped running neutron under tenanant issolation21:04
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sdaguewhich means basically neutron is getting extra kid gloves in the gate21:04
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ttxsdague: what would be your new favorite friend ?21:05
sdagueI'd say the simultaneous read issue that russellb is pointing out is in the top 321:05
russellbmarkmcclain: ^^^ (my link)21:05
sdague#1229475 - what russellb linked for a review21:05
* markmcclain looking21:05
sdagueand #122633721:05
sdaguewe don't have a bot in here that urls these?21:06
ttxsdague: #1226337 just delayed keystone RC1 cut by several hours, so it's my personal favorite21:06
russellbmarkmcclain: patch is a bit brute force, but we're sort of grasping here21:06
ttxbug 122633721:06
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1226337 in cinder "tempest.scenario.test_volume_boot_pattern.TestVolumeBootPattern flake failure" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122633721:06
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ttxbug 122947521:06
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1229475 in python-neutronclient "terminate_instance(): RuntimeError: Second simultaneous read on fileno 16 detected" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122947521:06
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markmcclainrussellb: understood.. this is code that has been around for sometime, so wondering why it is suddenly causing so many failures recently21:07
sdagueso 1226337 is basically a general case of volumes don't get created reliably21:07
ttxsdague: do we have an idea of how to fix that one ?21:07
jgriffithsdague: ttx yes21:07
sdaguejgriffith: has been working on it21:07
russellbmarkmcclain: well, i'm nervous to merge it honestly, because we don't have a good explanation21:07
jgriffithsdague: ttx proposed fix in the queue21:07
ttxjgriffith: ok21:07
sdaguejgriffith: ok, I thought that was just the debug fix?21:07
jgriffithsdague: ttx and to be specific it's the backing lun for the target isn't created21:08
jgriffithwe've made a dent in it21:08
russellbmarkmcclain: all we know is that neutronclient ends up with a bad fd21:08
jgriffithsdague: no, that's an actual attempt to recreate the backing lun if it's missing21:08
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sdagueok, great21:08
jgriffithas well as provide more debug info21:08
ttxso it looks like we have stuff in progress to improve the sutuation on the top 3 offenders... which might fix those21:08
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markmcclainrussellb: from a risk standpoint it can't hurt21:08
ttxsdague: is that a fair summary or do you have any issue flying under the radar ?21:08
russellbmarkmcclain: yeah, does *seem* safe at least21:09
sdaguettx: I think that's fine for now21:09
markmcclainrussellb: only likely to increase request latency21:09
ttxsdague: ok21:09
markmcclainlong term I do want to move to request too21:09
ttxannegentle, jeblair: other news from Docs/Infra programs ?21:09
ttxaffecting release, that is ?21:09
russellbmarkmcclain: cool was wondering about that ... guess we should be quiet now :)21:09
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ttxIn other news, it looks like we won't have phone landlines to call in in design summit rooms in Hong-Kong.21:10
ttxIf we want to hook in critical remote participants we'll have to get creative using modern stuff like "the Internet"21:10
jgriffithttx: what's "Internet"21:10
ttxjgriffith: somethig they apparently have in HongKong21:10
dolphmwe don't normally have such modern stuff21:11
jgriffithworld of wonder21:11
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ttxOK, let's go into project-specific details now, if annegentle and jeblair don't have anything to add21:11
ttx#topic Oslo status21:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Oslo status (Meeting topic: project)"21:11
ttxdhellmann: hi!21:11
ttxdhellmann is standing in for markmc21:11
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/oslo/+milestone/havana-rc121:11
ttxOne bug left before stable/havana cut:21:12
ttxBug 122509921:12
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1225099 in oslo "Encoding hard-coded in gettextutils.Message" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122509921:12
dhellmannwe've got a 2 part fix for that21:12
ttxImpacts most other projects. Could you elaborate on the impact of that one ? Given how many projects are affected I'd like to make sure it's actually RC1-critical21:12
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ttxread the bug but it just confused me21:12
dhellmannpart 1 is to disable "lazy" translation in the projects currently using it, because the implementation is sketchy21:12
dhellmannpart 2 is to fix the translation issue in logging, and we have a patch in process for that21:13
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dhellmannthat fix will let us re-enable lazy evaluation, but given that this is happening so late in the cycle most of us feel more comfortable leaving it turned off and focusing on it early in icehouse21:14
ttxdhellmann: so those fixes will need to be synced in the consuming projects ?21:14
dhellmannespecially because this touches logging, which is used everywhere21:14
dhellmannttx: we will need to patch the projects to avoid configuring logging with lazy evaluation enabled (there are 2 ways that's done)21:14
dhellmannand then the other changes will be worked on, but don't need to be merged into the other projects21:14
ttxdhellmann: any chance we can have those patches proposed today ? some projects will block their RC1 on that quite soon21:15
ttxceilometer comes to mind21:15
ttxheat too21:15
dhellmannttx: doubtful, but early tomorrow may be possible21:15
ttx(I'm talking about the lazy-disabling patch, not the long-term fix)21:16
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dhellmannyes, me, too (it's the end of the day here and I have a long commute ahead of me today)21:16
dhellmannI'll see if some of the other folks involved can start on that, though21:16
ttxdhellmann: could you explain the impact ? How many translations use double byte stuff ?21:16
dhellmannthat's not entirely clear, but my impression is many asian languages will be impacted21:17
dhellmannbut *only* for logging21:17
dhellmannso a work-around is to not log using the locale-specific language21:17
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ttxdhellmann: ok, my understanding is that the patch will be simple enough, so maybe we'll find contributors to propose them earlier and in all cases they should be reviewed fast enough21:18
dhellmannwhich is, obviously, not ideal21:18
ttxso that will not create too much of a delay21:18
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ttxdhellmann: that's all I had. Questions about Oslo ?21:19
ttxdhellmann: anything you wanted to mention ?21:19
dhellmannnothing else from me21:19
ttx#topic Keystone status21:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Keystone status (Meeting topic: project)"21:19
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ttxdolphm: hi!21:19
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/havana-rc121:19
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ttxRC1 pending merge of the icehouse version bump: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/48971/21:19
ttxdolphm: luckily you don't seem to use this lazy thing21:19
ttxI'll cut the release branch and tag RC1 if no bug gets targeted to havana-rc1 when the version bump merges.21:20
ttxwhich should happen during my sleep, hopefully21:20
ttxdolphm: Anything else that may affect us ?21:20
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ttxOther news / questions about Keystone ?21:20
ttx#topic Ceilometer status21:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Ceilometer status (Meeting topic: project)"21:21
ttxjd__: hey21:21
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/ceilometer/+milestone/havana-rc121:21
ttxLast review in gate: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/47542/21:21
ttxThen we are affected by Bug 122509921:21
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1225099 in oslo "Encoding hard-coded in gettextutils.Message" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122509921:21
jd__just for 6 hours already :)21:22
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ttxjd__: could you push a patch for that, with dhellmann quick guidance ?21:22
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ttxThen we can push and approve the version bump (in setup.cfg, bump 2013.2 to 2014.1) tomorrow in our common morning21:22
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jd__that would work for me21:22
ttxwe should be all set for RC1 tomorrow21:22
jd__I just need to know what the patch should like since I've no idea yet :)21:23
ttxunless you have a surprise up your sleeve21:23
ttxjd__: so I'll let you sync with dhellmann now21:23
ttxOther news / questions about Ceilometer ?21:23
ttx#topic Swift status21:24
*** openstack changes topic to "Swift status (Meeting topic: project)"21:24
notmynameyay swift21:24
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/swift/+milestone/1.9.3-rc121:24
ttxnotmyname: o/21:24
ttxnotmyname: How far are you ? Would be nice to get to RC1 this week for you too, leaving 2 weeks for RC testing and any necessary respin21:24
ttxfrom what I've seen diskfile-databasebroker-as-apis is still very much in progress  ?21:24
ttxwhile the only review I could find earlier today about multiple-domains-in-domain-remap is abandoned21:25
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ttxso I can't really tell an ETA21:25
notmynametracking 2 patches for RC: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/48538/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/45134/. Those are the requirements. I'd love to see some more of the DiskFile, but getting reviews has been slow (although the codes is pretty much written)21:25
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* ttx adds to starred list21:25
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ttxnotmyname: i'll ping you again when those two land21:25
ttxsee where we are at that poin21:26
notmynamethe memcache pool got hit with gate failures, so it should be landing soon, I think21:26
notmynamekk, sounds good21:26
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ttxbut later this week sounds definitely possible here21:26
ttxnotmyname: Other news ?21:26
notmynamethat would be nice :-)21:26
notmynameno other news from my end right now, but i have a question21:27
ttxgo for it21:27
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notmynameare the updated global requirements (that ae now being auto added to the patch queue) required for RC, too? ie are we getting all on the same page before havana?21:27
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ttxnotmyname: I'm not totally sure if it's required or just nice to have21:28
ttxmordred: ?21:28
notmynamejeblair: mordred: ^^?21:28
mordredwhat did I do?21:29
ttxi.e. should MOST projects or ALL projects have it for it to work21:29
mordredI think it's nice to have21:29
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notmynameok, good to know for the review queue21:29
ttxmordred: thx21:29
notmynamettx: ok, I'm good21:29
ttx#topic Glance status21:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Glance status (Meeting topic: project)"21:29
markwashlive from Bend, OR21:29
mordredI know swift has concerns around the lower bars - so I'd say that being in conflict with them is bad21:29
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ttxmarkwash: o/21:29
notmynamemordred: we'll figure something out21:29
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/glance/+milestone/havana-rc121:29
ttxRC1 pending merge of the icehouse version bump: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/49029/21:30
markwashall done*21:30
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ttxnow on top of gate21:30
markwash*some bumping entailed21:30
markwash#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/glance/?field.tag=havana-rc-potential21:30
markwashthose were the bumps21:30
ttxETA 7min21:30
ttxor 6 hours, depending on the results21:30
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ttxmarkwash: Any last-minute issue ?21:30
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ttxI'll cut the release branch and tag RC1 after meeting if it passes21:31
markwashthere are those havana-rc-potential issues but they don't look very serious21:31
ttxtomorrow morning if not21:31
markwashif any of those rc potentials land, does that screw anything up?21:31
ttxmarkwash: we'll keep potentially RC2-openers in that list for regular review21:31
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ttxmarkwash: stuff that lands post-version-bump are icehouse21:31
markwashk cool thanks21:31
ttxmarkwash: we can still backport them though if needed21:32
ttxOther news / questions about Glance ?21:32
markwashNothing from me21:32
ttxmarkwash: you don't use the lazy translation stuff, right ?21:32
markwashI don't know what that means, so probably not?21:32
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ttxwe'll assume markmc did his affected analysis right :)21:33
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ttx#topic Neutron status21:33
*** openstack changes topic to "Neutron status (Meeting topic: project)"21:33
ttxmarkmcclain: hi!21:33
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/havana-rc121:33
ttx5 RC1-targeted bugs left21:33
ttxbug 1224967: https://review.openstack.org/48261 needs core reviews21:34
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1224967 in neutron "port down after live migration" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122496721:34
ttxYou are affected by common issue bug 1225099, so we'll need a patch disabling the lazy mode here too21:34
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uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1225099 in oslo "Encoding hard-coded in gettextutils.Message" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122509921:34
markmcclainyeah.. was just discussing with dhellmann21:34
ttxThen the last 3 things are the flaky issues affecting the gate21:34
ttxAt this point we should cut RC1 as soon as the first two issues are merged and keep working on the other 321:35
ttxand do a RC2 if we do significant progress on them21:35
ttxmarkmcclain: Anything else you'd like to throw at RC1 ?21:35
markmcclainok.. I just want to make sure we understand the first three before release21:36
markmcclainsoftening the tempest checks while nice is concerning to me, but we can work towards a fix in RC221:36
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ttxOther news / questions about Neutron ?21:36
markmcclainnothing else from me21:37
ttx#topic Cinder status21:37
*** openstack changes topic to "Cinder status (Meeting topic: project)"21:37
ttxjgriffith: hola!21:37
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/cinder/+milestone/havana-rc121:37
ttx5 bugs left21:37
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ttxbug 1230176 still needs once extra core review21:37
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1230176 in cinder "[taskflow] Quotas are not rolled back on failure of create volume " [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/123017621:37
ttxon https://review.openstack.org/#/c/49103/21:38
ttxThen we are left with three bugs with uncertain status:21:38
ttx+ the lazy thing21:38
ttxbug 123018921:38
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1230189 in cinder "[taskflow] Incorrect state transition on failure of create volume API" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/123018921:38
ttxdid you make progress on that one ?21:38
jgriffithNot yet, but it's number is up21:38
ttxbug 122989421:39
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1229894 in cinder "brick has duplicate conf entries in iser and iscsi" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122989421:39
jgriffithafter this meeting I'll jumpon it21:39
jgriffithin progres, just need the review21:39
ttxat https://review.openstack.org/#/c/48528/21:39
jgriffiththe error code 22 I think might be able to go away21:39
ttxjgriffith: will that solve all or just half the bug ?21:39
jgriffithall 3 areas for that bug are in progress21:40
ttx(I see iser in addition to iscsi)21:40
jgriffiththere's mine, Walts and cburgess they're all in21:40
cburgessjgriffith: Mine needs to be re-based actually.21:40
ttxbug 122346921:40
jgriffithcburgess: boooo21:40
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1223469 in cinder "Volume create tgtadmin fails with error code 22" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122346921:40
cburgessWas waiting for Walt to get his fixed.21:40
jgriffithI was just looking at that and I think I can close it21:40
cburgessI need his changes.21:40
jgriffithttx: it turns out that my retry is working :)21:41
ttxjgriffith: what do you mean by "might be able to go away"21:41
jgriffithttx: http://paste.openstack.org/show/47798/21:41
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jgriffithttx: so the error still occurs but the recovery change I made seems to be working21:41
jgriffithttx: at least based on queiries in logstash21:42
ttxjgriffith: so we could move that to havana-rc-potential ?21:42
jgriffithttx: I think I'm just going to close it an open it back up if something different comes up21:42
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ttxjgriffith: sounds good21:42
ttxjgriffith: you'll need a patch up for bug 1225099 too21:43
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1225099 in oslo "Encoding hard-coded in gettextutils.Message" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122509921:43
ttxmaybe wait and see how ceilo fixes it21:43
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ttxOther news / questions about Cinder ?21:43
jgriffitherrmmm... TBH haven't looked at that yet but heard dhellmann talking about it I think21:43
jgriffithNope... you all may be rid of me after this week :)21:43
ttxjgriffith: yes, the idea is to disable lazy translations until properly ficed21:43
jgriffithbut I'm not going anywhere :)21:43
jgriffithI'll still be a PITA21:44
ttxjgriffith: thanks!21:44
ttx#topic Nova status21:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Nova status (Meeting topic: project)"21:44
ttxrussellb: hi!21:44
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/nova/+milestone/havana-rc121:44
ttxAll in gate except:21:44
russellblooking a bit better21:44
ttxbug 122947521:44
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1229475 in python-neutronclient "terminate_instance(): RuntimeError: Second simultaneous read on fileno 16 detected" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122947521:44
russellbyep, still pushing hard on that one, potential patch up against neutronclient21:44
russellband the neutron folks are jumping in to help look too21:45
ttxand will need to dsiable "lazy" for common bug 122509921:45
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1225099 in oslo "Encoding hard-coded in gettextutils.Message" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122509921:45
ttxthat's the last two things21:45
russellbyeah, was just going to follow the lead of what gets done across all affected projects there21:45
cburgessjgriffith: Is walter done rebasing his stuff?21:45
russellbtranslations in the gate21:45
ttxtranslations were not that stale in your case anyway21:46
russellbtomorrow seems possible, but optimistic, but should definitely be ready thursday, unless something new happens21:46
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ttxI'm traveling on Thursday.Friday but will do my best syncing with you21:46
russellboh, sorry21:46
ttxrussellb: well, my faulty21:46
russellbwould you want to just wait for monday at that point?21:47
ttxI thought we'd be done with RC1s by then. I should know better21:47
ttxrussellb: that conference better have decent wifi21:47
russellbha ok.21:47
russellbso we'll still aim for this week asap then21:47
ttxyes, definitely21:47
ttxOther news / questions about Nova ?21:47
ttx#topic Heat status21:48
*** openstack changes topic to "Heat status (Meeting topic: project)"21:48
ttxshardy: o/21:48
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/havana-rc121:48
ttx3 bugs left, one gating21:48
ttxbug 1227901 - where are you now on this one ?21:48
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1227901 in heat "CFN signal URLs don't work when trusts is enabled" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122790121:48
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shardyttx: I think we've decided to go ahead and push the change, and I've reached agreement with ayoung re the tempest tests for keystoneclient21:49
ttxshardy: cool21:49
ttxthen we'll be pending our common friend bug 122509921:49
shardyttx: I just addressed some (minor) review comments, so hopefully we'll get that patch in the gate soon21:49
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1225099 in oslo "Encoding hard-coded in gettextutils.Message" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122509921:49
ttxwould be great to find someone in some pacific tz to push a patch disabling the lazy stuff21:50
ttxthen we could cut RC1 tomorrow, maybe21:50
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shardySure, I'll speak to stevebaker and asalkeld21:50
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shardyyup, tomorrow looks possible if we can get things through the gate..21:50
ttxshardy: i'll miss a european PTL21:51
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ttxOther news / questions about Heat ?21:51
shardyttx: Haha, I'll still be around to pass on messages ;)21:51
ttx#topic Horizon status21:52
*** openstack changes topic to "Horizon status (Meeting topic: project)"21:52
ttxgabrielhurley: o/21:52
gabrielhurleyWe're down to five bugs, all with patches that have been approved, so we're waiting on the gate. translations are merged to both Horizon and django_openstack_auth packages. Released 1.1.3 of django_openstack_auth to PyPI with the latest. Once these last bugs are merged I'll push the version bump to gerrit and we'll cut our RC1. I'd expect that within the next 24 hours depending on the gate.21:52
ttx#link https://launchpad.net/horizon/+milestone/havana-rc121:52
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* ttx looks at https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/121153521:52
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1211535 in horizon "HorizonMiddleware class causes excessive session creation" [Medium,Fix committed]21:52
ttxohn the django_openstack_auth fix fixed it21:52
ttxok, looks like you might be all set for tomorrow21:53
gabrielhurleyyeah. there was a change that needed to be released there, so I did that along with the translations in one fell swoop21:53
gabrielhurleytomorrow's the goal21:53
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ttxOther news / questions about Horizon ?21:54
gabrielhurleyI got nothin'21:54
clarkbI have one21:54
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ttxmarkwash: damn21:54
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gabrielhurleygo for it21:54
clarkbcan we make the jobs for django_openstack_auth voting? I think they all pass but most are non voting21:54
clarkbthe jenkins gate jobs21:54
gabrielhurleyat least fine by me21:54
clarkbgabrielhurley: cool, I will propose that change21:54
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ttxother questions ?21:56
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ttx#topic Incubated projects21:56
*** openstack changes topic to "Incubated projects (Meeting topic: project)"21:56
ttxdevananda, hub_cap: around ?21:56
ttxhub_cap: Still no need for an RC2 ?21:57
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hub_capim thinking we should correct that and backport it21:57
hub_capi think zigo_ said there was a security issue w/ teh last one21:58
hub_capor the last time that was "fudged" in another project21:58
ttxyes, that was fixed in other projects21:58
hub_capthx to zigo_ for finding it for us :)21:58
hub_capthat alone will constitute our rc2 :)21:58
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ttxhub_cap: please file a bug about it21:58
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ttxget it fixed in icehouse21:58
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hub_capi think zigo_ did let me look21:59
ttxthen we'll open RC2 and backport it21:59
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1233305 in trove "Symlink attack with signing_dir = /tmp/keystone-signing-nova" [Undecided,New]21:59
ttxbut first file a bug and get it fixed into master21:59
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ttxAny question ?21:59
hub_capill fix now and we can backport22:00
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hub_capjust hugs and lots of em22:00
ttxack, talk to you tomorrow on opening that RC2 window22:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct  1 22:00:36 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-10-01-21.01.html22:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-10-01-21.01.txt22:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-10-01-21.01.log.html22:00
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gabrielhurley#startmeeting horizon22:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Oct  1 22:01:24 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is gabrielhurley. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.22:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.22:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'horizon'22:01
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gabrielhurleyhello folks22:01
gabrielhurley#topic overview22:01
*** openstack changes topic to "overview (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:01
lblanchardhi all!22:01
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gabrielhurleythat's pretty much the story, there22:01
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gabrielhurleylast five bugs, all with patches that are merging presently22:02
gabrielhurleykeep an eye on 'em to make sure they don't get stuck or anything, but that's where we're at22:02
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gabrielhurleyonce they're all merged I'll push a version bump, ttx will cut the RC from that commit, and master is open for icehouse work22:02
gabrielhurleyafter the RC is cut, any fixes that need to go into Havana need to be fixed in master first, then backported to the RC branch22:03
ttxonly if an RC window is reopened22:03
ttx(the backport)22:03
gabrielhurleybest case is we don't have any need for an RC222:03
ttxi.e. we need to have an annoying bug at least22:03
gabrielhurleygiven how much work we've done to vet RC1 I think it's possible we won't, but better to know what happens if we do have to do an RC2 than not.22:04
gabrielhurleygenerally the bar for respinning the RC for me is either a security problem or a significantly broken user-facing feature.22:04
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gabrielhurleyThe one last thing I will do today is to write up the release notes and commit those to the repo, as is my custom. that'll come in right before the version bump commit22:05
gabrielhurleyAside from the RC, the only other official business this week is that PTL elections are currently in progress. You should have received an email with a link to vote. If you did not, please let me know.22:06
gabrielhurleyI don't have any other topics for this meeting. The bugs are in a known place, and it's a little early to start reviewing blueprints for Icehouse. I'm just gonna skip straight to open discussion.22:08
gabrielhurley#topic open discussion22:08
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: horizon)"22:08
gabrielhurleyfree for all!22:08
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david-lyleThe bug mentioned in the last meeting https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1211535 is not really complete22:08
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1211535 in horizon "HorizonMiddleware class causes excessive session creation" [Medium,Fix committed]22:08
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ekarlsogabrielhurley: question, do you got a clue on the resource introspection stuff and realtime notifications ?22:09
david-lylethe fix that went in django_openstack_auth was a minor fix that complemented it22:09
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gabrielhurleydavid-lyle: no?22:09
gabrielhurleyyeah, I thought the other half was also merged22:09
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david-lylethe patch to Horizon was reverted because the fix in django_openstack_auth was needed, the original patch has not been reposted22:10
gabrielhurleyekarlso: introspection is an Icehouse maybe. realtime is an icehouse definite.22:10
ekarlsogabrielhurley: isn't introspection already due date ?22:10
david-lylegabrielhurley: we can close Havana without it, but we should reopen it22:10
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ekarlsoi mean, i thought you talked about it for grizzly ?22:11
gabrielhurleydavid-lyle: ah, I missed that it hadn't been re-posted. let's get that up now that django_openstack_auth is published.22:11
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gabrielhurleyekarlso: that's true, but there's no current resources available to tackle it. it was one of my personal projects, but my budget for coding time on Horizon ain't what it used to be. the realtime stuff has a lot more interest and energy around it right now, and it's one I'm currently more invested in.22:11
gabrielhurleyIt's only about 50% true that what I say "just happens"22:12
ekarlsogabrielhurley: lots of nebula stuff going on rather then horizon ? ;p22:12
gabrielhurleydavid-lyle: does the patch need any changes or can it just be re-approved as it was with the new openstack_auth?22:12
david-lylegabrielhurley: if we do, we'll have to bump openstack/requirements to 1.1.3 for django_openstack_auth and then horizon as well.  Causes ugly error without django_openstack_auth fix22:12
gabrielhurleyhmmm... the upper range isn't pinned, so it'd get picked up in new ones, but not in old ones.22:13
david-lylebut, Horizon can't pin unless openstack/requirements pins22:13
gabrielhurleyokay, I re-opened the ticket. I'll tag it as a havana-rc-potential and we can revisit it *if* we need to cut another RC. let's get the work done on it though.22:14
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david-lyleok, yeah, I think it's an all or none kind of deal in my mind22:14
gabrielhurleyif by chance it all lands before everything else in the gate, that simplifies things, I suppose22:14
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david-lylegabrielhurley: sounds good22:15
gabrielhurleyokay. ticket marked as such.22:15
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gabrielhurleyother topics?22:15
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kspeari think https://review.openstack.org/#/c/42240/ was the repost fwiw22:16
david-lyleI'll work with the author to iron this out22:17
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gabrielhurleygoing once....22:19
lblanchardI've created some wireframes around some details pages for Tuskar...22:19
lblanchardif anyone has interest in reviewing them22:19
lblanchardthere is a thread on the ML22:20
david-lylelblanchard: at first glance, those look really nice, but no tables !!  :)22:20
lblanchardeven though these are focused on Tuskar, I think there could be a lot of reuse in the visualizations for Horizon proper22:20
lblancharddavid-lyle: true, no tables :)22:20
lblancharddavid-lyle: but a user would probably get to these from tables, haha22:21
david-lylegotta have tables22:21
lblancharddavid-lyle: maybe there is information missing that belongs in tables22:21
timductive1those are some nice visualizations lblanchard22:22
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gabrielhurleyvery nice. my one piece of practical advice on these (from having gone through this with Nebula's designer working on both OpenStack and Nebula's dashboard) is that the "ideal"/"end goal" wireframes are often so far out that even beginning to implement them can be tough. Data sources for many of those metrics are difficult and deployment-dependent. Beyond that,  I can identify a dozen things in those that don't exist in22:22
gabrielhurleyI guess what I'm trying to get at is that it might also be helpful to have "transition" wireframes22:22
lblanchardtimductive1: thanks!22:23
gabrielhurleyor some plan for how we achieve this end goal, and all the stakeholders involved22:23
lblanchardgabrielhurley: fair point22:23
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jcoufalright.. I have actually some wireframes around tuskar as well22:23
timductive1also check that d3 can handle all of those visualization types22:23
lblanchardgabrielhurley: I agree…I'll be working closely with lsmola on this22:23
jcoufalmostly around processes, which might help to get the idea better22:23
jcoufallet me search for the links :)22:23
gabrielhurleyjcoufal: I was gonna ask how much you and lblanchard's work overlapped here...22:23
gabrielhurleytimductive1: it can with a little elbow-grease. You can build whatever you need with it.22:24
lblanchardgabrielhurley: jcoufal and I have been working closely…making sure we don't step on each others toes, and being consistent with designs22:24
jcoufalgabrielhurley: lblanchard is focusing more on detail pages and metrics, I am more dealing around concepts and workflows22:24
gabrielhurleyI've seen many of those things built before, which is why I know the cost in work-hours.22:24
jcoufalwe are in sync, reviewing and cooperating22:24
gabrielhurleylblanchard, jcoufal: great. just making sure.22:24
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lblanchardgabrielhurley: :)22:25
lblanchardgabrielhurley: I will be sure to help development through transitional wireframes if information isn't available to start...22:25
jcoufalhere are latest proposals22:25
jcoufal#link http://people.redhat.com/~jcoufal/openstack/tuskar/2013-09-30_tuskar_l-group_creation_wireframes.pdf22:26
gabrielhurleyin general I totally love the wireframes. I just want to make sure we don't kill ourselves trying to get there. :-)22:26
lsmolatimductive1, there is also rickshaw library for linecharts22:26
jcoufal#link http://people.redhat.com/~jcoufal/openstack/tuskar/2013-09-30_tuskar_resource_class_creation_wireframes.pdf22:26
david-lyleI'm hoping Tuskar is responsible for most of the data aggregation22:26
lsmolagabrielhurley, we will start with little pieces :-)22:26
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jcoufaland the whole youtube stream explaining them :) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3y6uD8yKVQ)22:26
timductive1Ismola true22:27
gabrielhurleyIt's also worth noting that, while Tuskar/Triple-O *is* cool and offers awesome possibilities, it's still not gonna even graduate for another 6 months at best and would be in the integrated release two cycles from now. That's a pretty long time.22:27
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lblanchardgabrielhurley: yeah, agreed. Now that I've put together what we would love to have, I will step back and with lsmola figure out what is feasible for a first cut.22:27
jcoufalgabrielhurley: yes22:27
lsmolagabrielhurley, we can use Horizon in tripleo now22:28
lsmolagabrielhurley, so we would like to make all chart libraries upstream first22:28
lblancharddavid-lyle: I believe the plan is that tuskar would do the aggregations…lsmola?22:29
gabrielhurleyfor sure. I'm not here to direct where the energy of the UX group goes. Only making sure they have full information for where prioritizing their time.22:29
gabrielhurleyignore my bad grammar22:29
jcoufalAnother update is on navigation enhancements - will be finishing prototype, sending it out shortly and I hope we send some initial patches soon as well22:29
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gabrielhurleyjcoufal: I look forward to that22:29
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lsmoladavid-lyle, lblanchard  yeah in Undercloud Tuskar will make the aggregations22:30
lblanchardside note…I'd be happy to hear from anyone if they do have certain UX things they'd like to see happen :)22:30
lsmoladavid-lyle, lblanchard  in over cloud it will be project detail pages, instance detail pages, maybe host aggregates ..22:30
* david-lyle feeling better22:31
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gabrielhurleymy biggest UX wish is that we could roll the network topology stuff and the instance flows into one so that the topology view was the main way you interacted with the system... there's a lot of code peril to work through there, but I think it'd make the experience much more compelling.22:31
lsmoladavid-lyle, overcloud and undercloud have similar aggregates :-)22:32
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gabrielhurleykinda like the heat topology view + network topology + instances + volumes all in one go.22:32
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jcoufalgabrielhurley: yeah, I am already got in touch with Toshi around network topology22:32
david-lyleI'm hoping to get time to work on a similar view for identity22:32
jcoufalsorry for grammar22:32
lblanchardgabrielhurley: great to know! Maybe I can help wireframe there too.22:32
gabrielhurleythe code side is one thing, but I think having some clear wireframes demenstrating all the flows before we even start on the code would be a good idea.22:33
david-lylemake groups/roles/projects/domains understandable22:33
gabrielhurleyit's also a bit tricky 'cuz you have to account for with *and* without Neutron22:33
gabrielhurleydavid-lyle: ++22:33
jcoufaldavid-lyle: ++22:33
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jcoufaldavid-lyle: that's great, we should jump into that as well22:33
david-lylebetween these topology type views and a real workflow, I think we can make Horizon a lot more accessible for a wider range of users22:34
* david-lyle looking forward to Icehouse22:34
lblanchardsounds great to me!!22:34
gabrielhurleythe group/role/project/domain discussion may fit in our IA session at the summit, but we may want to have a little informal hallway session on that topic alone.22:34
david-lylesounds like a good idea22:35
jcoufalgabrielhurley: me and lblanchard want to send out initial proposal before that22:35
jcoufalto kick some discussion around22:35
jcoufaland get people to start thinking on that22:35
gabrielhurleyI've tried various alternate ways of grouping that information and have had mixed success. I seem to always have to gloss over one variable to make it understandable.22:35
david-lyleit's difficult and I think limiting the amount of information initially visible will help, because you can make it a real nightmare22:37
david-lylestill working through the layout conceptually which is a big reason I haven't started the concrete work yet22:38
gabrielhurleyI've found the key to be to separate the problem spaces between the day-to-day "I need to operate in this context" and the very infrequent "I need to change something about my contexts"22:38
lblanchardyeah, I think writing out the use cases would be really helpful22:38
lblanchardand which persona would be performing them...22:38
gabrielhurleyfinding the right UX metaphor for "operating in a context" and "changing contexts" is a fun challenge22:39
julimI'm happy to help with the use cases22:39
julimjust need better to understand what problem we're trying to solve...22:39
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david-lylethanks julim22:39
julimnp david-lyle22:40
gabrielhurleyit's also interesting to think about how you would do this on a touch device, because those spacial/gestural metaphors are useful in thinking about this problem22:40
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lblanchardgabrielhurley: yeah, we were just talking to other day about mobile support…I responded to a blueprint a few weeks back but haven't seen much action on the Horizon mobile BP22:41
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lblanchardgabrielhurley: but in general it would be great to know what a user would do from a mobile device…research needed!22:42
david-lyledid the assignee/proposer make any contact after the summit?22:42
gabrielhurleydavid-lyle: once, early on, but that was about it22:43
gabrielhurleythey vanished pretty quick22:43
david-lyleahh, that's what I feared, large task22:43
jcoufalgabrielhurley: touch devices are definitely interesting challenge, on the other hand, I think that more important would be to increase UX of dashboard in general, we can keep touch devices in mind22:43
gabrielhurleyyep. I'm actually trying to recruit my good friend at Piston to do some work in making Horizon's stylesheets responsive22:44
jcoufalbut we won't hit that much audience with touch devices as we can touch with classic UI improvements22:44
gabrielhurleyjcoufal, lblanchard: my intention there was not to suggest that we should be building *for* touch devices, but to suggest that spatial metaphors are good for representing context switches, and touch devices are an easy touch-point (no pun intended) for that mindset.22:45
lblanchardgabrielhurley: understood. Sorry it got me off on a tangent :)22:45
gabrielhurleyno worries22:45
gabrielhurleymobile is also a great UX challenge22:45
jcoufalgabrielhurley: right, that's true22:45
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jcoufalsorry for missunderstanding22:46
gabrielhurleyall good22:46
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gabrielhurleyokay. anything else?22:49
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gabrielhurleycool! I'm gonna go write release notes.22:51
gabrielhurleyWhen next we talk we'll be looking at Icehouse22:51
gabrielhurleyhave a great week!22:51
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:51
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct  1 22:51:41 2013 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:51
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-10-01-22.01.html22:51
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-10-01-22.01.txt22:51
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-10-01-22.01.log.html22:51
david-lyleThanks everyone22:51
lsmolathank you, good night everybody22:52
julimthank you all. have a good evening.22:52
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lblanchardthanks all!!22:53
jcoufalthanks! _o/22:54
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