Wednesday, 2014-05-07

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* annegentle waves13:59
* nickchase waves back.13:59
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annegentleok let me take one more minute to see if I can get a better client than webchat. arg!14:00
annegentleok, brb14:01
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nickchaseStill on the web, but works great.14:02
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Sam-I-Amoops, there went anne14:02
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Sam-I-Amhello again14:02
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annegentle#startmeeting docteam14:03
openstackMeeting started Wed May  7 14:03:04 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is annegentle. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:03
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'docteam'14:03
annegentleOkay, agenda is here:14:03
annegentleFirst topic, as usual14:03
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annegentle#topic Action items from last meeting14:03
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annegentlepout. No one did this that I recall14:04
annegentleeveryone look at the requirements listing in and give feedback on the openstack-docs mailing list14:04
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annegentleand then I don't recall what this one was? annegentle to send post about doc tools requirements to openstack-docs mailing list14:04
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Sam-I-Amannegentle: oops :/14:05
Sam-I-Amannegentle: is there a thread on the ML for your blog post?14:05
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annegentleSam-I-Am: I guess not?14:05
annegentleI'm looking and I don't see one... bummah14:05
annegentleI've got a draft ready to send so I'll do that14:06
annegentleahh right. I never sent it.14:06
annegentlemy bad14:06
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annegentleok that's it for action items14:07
annegentlesince one didn't get done the other didn't either, naturally.14:07
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annegentleOkay this is the final week before the Summit14:07
annegentle#topic Summit prep14:07
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annegentleSam-I-Am has been doing a ton of work getting ready for the install guide session, thanks Matt!14:07
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annegentlenickchase and I are working on who talks about what in each of the cross project sessions14:08
Sam-I-Amyeah... the audit was fun14:08
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Sam-I-Amtrying to come up with more items for my session too14:08
Sam-I-Amwhich hopefully others will be chiming in :)14:08
Sam-I-Amremember, i'm the summit n00b14:08
annegentleYes for sure14:09
annegentleSam-I-Am: there's a 101 Session that you'll want to go to14:09
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Sam-I-Amannegentle: the dev summit 101?14:09
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annegentleYep, that's the one ^^ we do it each summit and role play how sessions go14:10
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Sam-I-Amannegentle: ahh thats already on my calendar :)14:10
annegentleOur Documentation track is grouped here14:10
annegentleAnd the two cross-project sessions are14:10
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Sam-I-Ami found it interesting how the summits have different scheduling sites... so... lots of schedule conflicts to fix14:11
annegentleAny questions about the summit?14:11
annegentleyeah it's tough14:11
annegentleI fought against it and lost14:11
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annegentleSo nickchase, I think that the first session is about requirements gathering14:12
nickchaseright, well, I suppose it'd have to be14:12
annegentlenickchase: and I'm sending an email today to get people to start thinking about it, across openstack-dev and openstack mailing list14:12
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nickchaseyou will probably want to make sure that ...14:12
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nickchaseyou explain that the two sessions are together.  I think that people may expect a certain amount of requirements gathering in the second session, from the description.14:13
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annegentlenickchase: ok14:14
annegentlenickchase: I see the split as user doc vs. devs writing doc14:14
nickchaseannegentle: To a certain extent.  But the devs need to have their say on what they need to make this process smoother for them.14:15
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annegentlenickchase: what are your goals and expected outcomes? I see seeds of a process. Are you outlining an etherpad with the blueprint <project>-spec expectations ahead of time?14:15
annegentlenickchase: absolutely14:15
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nickchaseannegentle:  Never having done this before, I didn't think about that, thank you. :)  I will do that.  My goals and expected outcomes are...14:16
nickchaseannegentle:  that we get the devs to talk about their own processes and the circumstances under which they feel like they would contribute more regularly, and then we would ...14:17
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nickchaseannegentle:  either during the session or afterwards, depending on how it goes, figure out how to make that work for them.14:17
nickchaseannegentle:  Or am I being unrealistic?14:17
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annegentlenickchase: I don't think that's unrealistic14:18
annegentlenickchase: use as a template14:18
annegentlenickchase: and list your goals14:18
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annegentlenickchase: with questions you want answered14:18
nickchaseannegentle:  Thanks, appreciate it.14:18
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Michalikannegentle - Thanks for the Summit 101 link! Just reposted for our team.14:20
annegentlenickchase: I also think that the dev base is smaller than we really think.14:20
nickchaseannegentle:  that could very well be.  I suppose we'll find out!14:20
annegentlenickchase: not to hash out your session now, but check out slide 33 of
annegentleone other question, how can we sit together at lunch Monday?14:21
annegentlethat'll let us continue discussing14:21
annegentleto lead into the next one14:21
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annegentleI don't know a lot about lunch arrangements but typically it's at the convo center so I'll see what I can do14:22
annegentle#topic developer.openstack.org14:22
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annegentleWe've got the domain registered and now we're working on copying the content to it14:23
annegentlethe content will be the same as, which is just the landing page and all the pages related to
annegentlewe may change that from a Cloud Sites set of pages to a Cloud Files static site14:23
annegentleJust wanted to bring it to everyone's attention.14:23
annegentleThe content will be geared towards app devs consuming OpenStack resources14:24
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annegentleSDKs, etc14:24
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annegentleWe may move the user guide CLI over there, not sure yet. That's what I want to talk about in the session about requirements14:25
annegentle#topic Doc contribution survey - results coming14:25
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annegentleWe got less than 40 responses to the survey, but I think they offer insights14:25
annegentleIt was interesting, filling in the "other" portion to barriers was the most answered barrier14:26
annegentlethen it was Docbook, followed by not knowing where a bit of info goes, followed by Git/Gerrit14:26
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annegentleEven grouping the "other" question a pattern emerged that people just don't think they know enough to contribute14:27
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annegentlethen when you look at who answered the survey, I see that the majority who answered contribute or use OpenStack less than 10 hours a week14:27
annegentleso I'm not sure we got quite what we need from the survey, and it'll be important to test out the data at the Summit14:27
annegentlenickchase: does that help you some too? ^^14:28
annegentleMy sense is that we need to shift towards asking more consumers to write docs than devs, but that is just a guess14:28
annegentleperhaps two people who responded work on OpenStack full time14:28
annegentlealso people don't have a test bed to test things on14:28
annegentleI'll send a mailing list post right after this meeting14:29
nickchaseannegentle:  the problem here is that it's the devs we really need to hear from.  I mean, they're the ones who are writing what in many cases turns out to be incomprehensible messages about what it is that we then need to document.14:29
annegentleany questions?14:29
annegentlenickchase: but that's where <project>-specs is helping, have you been reviewing those?14:29
annegentlenickchase: to me it's a matter of getting all the projects to follow nova/neutron's lead?14:29
nickchaseannegentle:  not sure what you're referring to, there's been a LOT of stuff flowing past me14:30
annegentlenickchase: ok, I mentioned it in an email I sent. the nova-specs backlog is over 100 blueprints to be reviewed14:30
annegentleI'll wait to see if anyone has Qs...14:30
annegentle#topic Doc tools news14:31
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nickchaseannegentle:  yes, I've been lookign at that14:31
annegentleOk all I've got here is that we can now use SCP rather than plain-ol' FTP to copy the HTML and PDF to the docs sites14:31
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annegentleAnd 0.13 of the openstack-doc-tools tool is the latest version14:32
annegentlenickchase: sorry didn't mean to move too fast. So your sense is that that's useful for docs or not useful?14:32
nickchaseannegentle:  don't let me hold you up.  Useful, but not sufficient.14:33
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annegentlenickchase: yep it doesn't have the user / operator empathy that a docs person brings to the table14:33
nickchaseannegentle:  right.14:33
annegentle#topic Installation guide notes14:34
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annegentleI wanted to bring this up because Sam-I-Am did a ton of work auditing the install guides14:34
annegentleso that's a great etherpad for the session14:35
Sam-I-Amplease add/change stuff14:35
annegentleSam-I-Am: all I'd say is add the template at the top that lists the session name, presenter, which room, etc.14:35
Sam-I-Amok... will need to find that template14:35
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annegentleSam-I-Am: use the top of
annegentle#topic Doc Sprint in Brisbane to coincide with Pycon AU14:36
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annegentleThat's August 4-5, see
annegentleSuper cool they're doing that14:37
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annegentleOk lots of time for open discussion14:37
annegentle#topic Open discussion14:37
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Sam-I-Amnot much here... looking forward to the summit and seeing everyone14:37
Sam-I-Amshould be a tiring blast!14:37
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nickchasesam-i-am: that should sum it up. :)14:38
annegentletiring blast is exactly right!14:38
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annegentleI had a great time at Write the Docs in Portland14:38
Sam-I-Amannegentle: cool14:38
Sam-I-Amdid you write some docs?14:38
annegentleOne person live blogged all the main talks, it was amazing14:39
annegentlethat guy did!14:39
annegentleIn my six hours delayed plane situation I sure wrote some docs.14:39
Sam-I-Amannegentle: were we supposed to meet today to talk about something?14:39
Sam-I-Ammaybe it was my session?14:39
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Sam-I-Amor the review guide...14:40
annegentleSam-I-Am: maybe the process session?14:40
annegentleSam-I-Am: yes14:40
annegentlereview guide14:40
annegentleSam-I-Am: and nickchase both, I want to encourage you to post to the mailing list this week, so we ensure we get people at the sessions beyond just "us"14:40
Sam-I-Ampost about the sessions?14:41
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nickchaseto openstack-dev, you mean?14:41
nickchaseactually, I need to do at least one summit-related blog post as well14:41
annegentlenickchase: for yours, yes. and openstack-docs too there are devs there interested in docs and of course we want them to attend14:42
nickchaseand I'm not ready to write about my main talk14:42
annegentleSam-I-Am: yes a brief description of the goals for the session14:42
Sam-I-Amgeneral openstack list?14:42
annegentleSam-I-Am: for yours, I would think openstack-doc would suffice, but you could certainly use the openstack list too14:42
nickchaseand a link to the etherpad, I assume?14:42
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annegentlenickchase: yep14:43
annegentleAt Write the Docs, two community presentations stood out to me.14:43
annegentleWordpress actually has multiple doc teams for multiple audiences/toolchains14:43
annegentleCodex is separate from the docs for developers of Wordpress14:44
annegentlethat was a nice confirmation14:44
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annegentleDefinitely read the twitter stream14:44
annegentleone major theme was "treat docs like code"14:45
annegentleso we're right on, man14:45
annegentleThe videos will be available and I highly recommend them. I watched all of last year's.14:45
annegentleanything else? Want back 14 minutes of your day?14:46
annegentlehave it!14:46
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openstackMeeting ended Wed May  7 14:46:49 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)14:46
openstackMinutes (text):
* Sam-I-Am heads off to another meeting14:47
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annegentlethanks! See ya14:47
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johnthetubaguy#startmeeting XenAPI15:03
openstackMeeting started Wed May  7 15:03:20 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is johnthetubaguy. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'xenapi'15:03
johnthetubaguywho is here this week?15:03
johnthetubaguy#topic CI15:03
*** openstack changes topic to "CI (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:03
johnthetubaguywaiting to see if bobball will join to update around the CI15:04
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BobBallGot anyone else today?15:06
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leifz*leifz lurking.15:07
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johnthetubaguyI am here15:07
johnthetubaguyBobBall: we are in the CI topic15:08
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johnthetubaguyany updates from that side of things?15:08
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BobBallIt's chundling... it broke with the new gerrit.  I fixed it.  Fin.15:08
BobBallNo progress on the things that matter - waiting for reviews etc15:08
johnthetubaguy#topic Open Discussion15:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:09
johnthetubaguyI am digging into issues with live-migrate with volumes attached15:10
BobBallI've been having a load of fun with xenserver-core15:10
johnthetubaguywill get a bug up soon, and fresh the bug list a little15:10
BobBallso so close to having it building from xapi trunk (and of course, passing in openstack!)15:10
BobBalldid I say xenserver-core?15:11
BobBallI didn't mean to say xenserver-core15:11
BobBallI meant to say buildroot15:11
BobBallnobody saw me say xenserver-core did they?15:11
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johnthetubaguysounds good15:12
johnthetubaguyits the summit next week15:13
BobBall is the fun PR if anyone cares15:13
johnthetubaguylets make sure we meet up15:13
BobBallI'll be at the summit.15:13
BobBallAre you signed up to any parties?15:13
BobBallI say let's just pick an evening and find a pub15:13
BobBallor a restaurant15:13
johnthetubaguyI signed up to most of the parties15:14
johnthetubaguybut yeah, lets meet up15:14
BobBallI say let's pick an evening for the party that you want to go to the least :P15:14
johnthetubaguyanyways, lets meet in some Nova sessions, and agree15:14
johnthetubaguyI should be in all of those15:14
BobBallI'll be in quite a few15:15
BobBallalthough I'm heading over to CI land / infra land for several too15:15
BobBallgotta say, I love the phone app this year15:15
BobBallmakes so much easier15:15
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johnthetubaguyso anymore for anymore?15:17
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johnthetubaguycool, see you all in atlanta15:17
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:17
openstackMeeting ended Wed May  7 15:17:37 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:17
openstackMinutes (text):
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jgriffithCinder time....16:00
jgriffith#startmeeting cinder16:00
openstackMeeting started Wed May  7 16:00:23 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'cinder'16:00
jgriffithhey everyone16:00
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* jgriffith feels like he's been gone forever16:00
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jgriffithWe've got one item listed by thingee16:01
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jgriffith#topic limt==0 patch:
*** openstack changes topic to "limt==0 patch: (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:01
jungleboyjHello all.16:01
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thingeeso I agree with your jgriffith16:01
thingeeyour comment, jgriffith *16:02
DuncanTI agree too16:02
eharneydoes that address the issue of why snapshots and volumes behave differently?16:02
jgriffithOk... now this is just weird16:02
jgriffithwe're all agreeing16:02
jgriffithquick somebody protest16:02
bswartzI disagree16:02
jgriffithbswartz: thank you sir16:03
eharneywhatever behavior is correct it seems like it shouldn't be different for snaps vs volumes...16:03
jgriffithbswartz: I'm going to ignore you of course16:03
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thingeeeharney: one is using sqlalchemyutils, other is relying on the common api code16:03
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DuncanTeharney: Yes, that sounds like a simple bug... all of them shoudl do 0 === max_limit16:04
jgriffitheharney: they should all be consistent IMHO16:04
jgriffithDuncanT: +116:04
thingeejgriffith: +116:04
jgriffithlow hanging fruit16:04
eharneysounds good then16:04
thingeeI follow up on the bug16:04
jgriffith0 just makes no sense to me16:04
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jgriffithI mean 0 --> list nothing16:04
jgriffithseems kinda silly16:04
jgriffithanybody have anything else they're dieing to talk about?16:05
jgriffithany big plans for the next week?16:05
thingeepeople should pitch in on etherpads16:05
jgriffith#topic summit sessions16:05
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jgriffiththingee: thanks16:06
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jgriffiththingee: so note I created an etherpad for each session but no data in it16:06
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jgriffithother than title/time16:06
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jgriffithif you have a session and want to pre-seed it with stuff you should get on it16:06
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coolsvapI think I got what I wanted16:07
jgriffithanybody have any questions about sessions?16:07
glenngdoes the etherpad session mean there is a scheduled session for said topic?16:07
glenngHaven't made it through the conf sched yet. Mgr wants to see work out of me ;-)16:08
bswartzcinder sessions are in baby blue16:08
glenngYes. Understood. I had just noticed an etherpad session on NFS and wondered if a conf session was in place for that.16:09
jungleboyjDoh!  So many Friday sessions!@16:09
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jgriffithjungleboyj: welcome to Cinder design summit16:09
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jgriffithjungleboyj: we always get Thurs afternoon and Friday16:09
jgriffithglenng: you talking about "NFS and its role within Cinder"16:10
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glenngjgriffith: Yes sir.16:10
jungleboyj:-(  Ok.  I think my flight is pretty late afternoon Friday.16:10
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thingeejgriffith: I prefer thurs and friday16:10
jgriffithglenng: yeah, that's bswartz 's scheduled session16:10
bswartzjgriffith: glenng and I will both be presenting16:10
thingeepeople are dead tired then16:10
jgriffiththingee: me too actually16:10
thingeeto argue16:10
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jgriffithhaha... it's actually good because I typically learn alot M-Thur16:11
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thingeewell except use cases like disaster recovery and having replications on different planets16:11
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glenngHow to brew British beer ;-)16:11
DuncanTMmmm, beer16:11
jgriffithOk... anything we need to plan ahead of next week?16:11
jgriffithanything people think was missed?16:12
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jgriffithspecial considerations we need to be sure and talk about etc?16:12
* coolsvap missed summit16:12
jgriffiththingee: ahhh... yes16:12
jgriffith#topic LIO16:12
*** openstack changes topic to "LIO (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:12
DuncanTI can't make head nor tail of
jgriffithone thing we've talked about the past release is making the LIO driver the default tgt16:13
jgriffiththis provides some flexibility and typically better performance16:13
jgriffithIIRC it also lets us do some work with Fibre Channel as well16:13
thingeeit could potentially push fabric knowledge out of cinder.16:13
jgriffithwe can start making some of that code more "common"16:13
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jgriffiththingee: I would LOVE that16:13
thingeejgriffith: +10000000000016:14
jgriffithany objections to moving forward on that?16:14
hemnaSo there is a problem with virsh and FC currently16:14
jgriffithhemna: surprise surprise16:14
eharneythe only concern i have about it being default is how to handle platforms that don't support it sensibly16:14
jgriffithhemna: I still say FC is a horrible technology for OpenStack16:14
hemnavirsh can't do HBA passthrough to the guest os's16:14
thingeeeharney: +116:14
eharneybut we have that same issue w/ tgtd.  so... need to think about it anyway16:14
bswartzI'm curious to know how LIO helps cinder not worry about fabric stuff16:14
jgriffitheharney: interesting16:15
thingeealso fabric code can't completely be removed from cinder. tgt still needs it :(16:15
jgriffitheharney: I don't have info on that16:15
jgriffitheharney: thingee care to enlighten?16:15
eharneyjgriffith: well it's simple from my side.  el6 == only tgtd.  el7 == only LIO16:15
hemnathingee, cinder still needs it for initiator side of things and LUN discovery (brick initiator)16:15
jgriffitheharney: dang RHEL!!!16:15
eharneywhich leads me toward wondering about default = prefer LIO but fallback16:15
jgriffitheharney: that's what I'd propose16:15
eharneybut i dunno what the best way is to handle all that or if we just leave it up to config16:15
jgriffitheharney: that's what I did with iet/tgt16:15
eharneyahh yeah, before my time :)16:15
jgriffithconfig is probably fine as well16:16
jgriffithdoesn't seem unreasonable to me at least16:16
thingeeso a first step...16:16
thingeeLIO packages are a mess in upstream packages16:16
DuncanTIf we're supporting a fallback, can we get the gate to test both?16:16
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thingeethere was a fork of some of the initial rtslib code and distros like ubuntu are broken because they confuse the two16:17
jgriffithDuncanT: good idea16:17
jgriffithDuncanT: we'll have to look into that16:17
eharneythingee: ah yes16:17
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jgriffith#note investigate gating on tgt and lio16:17
jungleboyjas a RHEL consumer I want to make sure that we can configure it.  :-)16:17
thingeefor reference
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1166042 in rtslib "rtslib-fb is not object compatible with rtslib" [High,Fix released]16:18
* coolsvap already investigating 16:18
jgriffitheharney: can you get LIO on RHEL through epel?16:18
eharneyjgriffith: pretty sure the kernel support isn't there for el616:18
coolsvapjgriffith: I have done that on el716:18
jgriffitheharney: doh!16:18
jgriffithcoolsvap: yeah el7 is fine16:18
eharneythingee: interesting... rtslib and rtslib-fb aren't compatible so naming like that is scary16:19
jgriffithcoolsvap: I forgot about the kerenl version16:19
jgriffithOk... so there's a lot of work there16:19
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coolsvapjgriffith: I think I have that setup as well16:19
jgriffiththe decision on what's default and what's not may not be cut and dry16:19
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coolsvapjgriffith: let me double check16:19
jgriffithbut I think starting with cleaning up LIO and beefing it up seems good16:19
jgriffithand doesn't hurt anyone16:19
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thingeejgriffith: yes, I've started on this16:20
jgriffithWe'll def make sure we don't cut out a platform16:20
thingeeat least the emails to fix up the packages16:20
jgriffithrighty ho16:20
thingeeI like the idea of a fallback to tgt tho16:20
jgriffiththingee: yeah, seems like a reasonable approach16:20
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coolsvapjgriffith: I have seen some issues with LIO preconfigured with RDO-icehouse, I just dont remember whether I got those on 7/616:21
coolsvapI will check that tonight16:21
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jgriffithcoolsvap: k... but it seems we know that el6 isn't going to work16:22
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* jgriffith trusts eharney on all things rhel :)16:22
eharneythere was at least one big bug around LIO fixed in icehouse rc phase too16:22
jgriffithNot a problem though16:22
* coolsvap wants to join the club with eharney 16:23
thingeeeharney: heh missing module import16:23
* coolsvap ;)16:23
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eharneythingee: oh i forgot about that one... i meant the elevated context thing16:23
thingeejgriffith: that's all for me. I will hopefully have a better report. I *just* started on the clean up stuff last night16:23
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thingeebetter report at the summit*16:24
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jungleboyjjgriffith: Will discussing issues around Volume states be discussed in the Cinder State and Workflow Mangement discussion?16:25
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* jgriffith gets in his time machine.....16:26
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jgriffithjungleboyj: I just visited the session in the future and it seemed like you brought it up16:26
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* jungleboyj laughs ... Ok.16:27
jgriffithalright... anybody else have anything?16:27
jungleboyjjgriffith: Then you can kick me out as I will have to leave for a flight soon after that.16:27
DuncanTCan anybody give me the slightest clue what that is about?16:28
eharneyreads kind of like the import/export ideas to me16:28
eharneybut i dunno16:28
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jgriffitheharney: DuncanT I *think* it's just a mapping16:29
jgriffithwhich I'm not overly interested in creating a table for16:29
jgriffiththe driver should be able to handle this16:29
hemnano idea what he's talking about....some new metadata object ?16:29
jgriffithand we already have a "host" column on the volume16:29
hemnasounds like he wants to store the state of cinder's db on the storage array?16:30
hemnano idea16:30
jgriffithhemna: DuncanT eharney so I believe what he wants here is:16:30
jgriffithability to querie cinder to do direct backup of volumes16:30
jgriffithoutside of Cinder16:30
jgriffithso for example tell netbackup:  Here's the device, this is the volume back it up16:30
jgriffithit's come up in some talks I've been in before16:31
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jgriffithtraditional backups, NOT cinder backup service BTW16:31
hemnathen why do we need to modify cinder to support something that happens outside of cinder ?16:31
jgriffithhemna: so they can have the mapping16:31
jgriffithhemna: they need to tell the back up app how to find the volume on the device16:32
eharneyjust map based on identifying the volumes from the array side by a name that corresponds to the cinder id?16:32
DuncanTjgriffith: Why does that have anything to do with nova device mapping info?16:32
jgriffitheharney: yeah, if your driver implemented that :)16:32
jgriffithDuncanT: that I'm not sure16:32
hemnaDuncanT, no idea16:32
DuncanTjgriffith: Fair enough, I guess we'll find out at the summit16:32
jgriffithI'm assuming they want to backup the instance data as well?16:33
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* jgriffith isn't a fan regardless but we'll see16:33
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jgriffithanything we can't discuss iformally in #openstack-cinder?16:34
DuncanTBut the instance and attachment data can change mid-backup....16:34
hemnathe 3PAR drivers already do some of this when we create a volume.16:34
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hemnawe store some cinder metadata in the volume on the 3PAR itself16:34
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jgriffithalright... let's wrap it up16:34
hemnafor reverse lookup (when looking at the 3PAR UI console)16:35
jgriffithhemna: most of us implemented that from the start yes16:35
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hemnaso I guess this BP is just a formalization of that concept ?16:35
hemnanot sure why the drivers need a new API for it?16:35
jgriffithhemna: well everybody does it differently16:36
hemnayah I suppose it enforces it then16:36
jgriffithhemna: so having an API call to just give the mapping is what they want and makes sense16:36
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jgriffithbut again I didn't write the BP so there's a lot of speculation going on here16:36
jgriffiththat may prove to be a waste of time :)16:36
hemnaheh yah16:36
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jgriffithWe'll need to clairfy things with yehia16:37
jgriffithalright... anything for the meeting before i turn out the lights?16:37
* jgriffith isn't trying to rush, just be focused16:37
kmartinno meeting next week? just kidding16:37
jgriffithkmartin: LOL16:37
glenng*thinks there will be MANY meetings next week*16:38
jgriffithkmartin: on the contrary16:38
jgriffithLOTS of meeting next week16:38
thingeeI would like to finalize at the summit a time for us all to meet in the second milestone16:38
jgriffithglenng: +116:38
thingeefinalize = start discussion16:38
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jgriffiththingee: I was wondering if that was going to come up16:38
jgriffiththingee: noted16:38
kmartinthingee: and another bug hunt day16:38
jgriffiththingee: we'll propose a mid-cycle sprint and try to get somethign worked out16:39
thingeekmartin: yes, google hangout 3rd milestone16:39
thingeegreat success16:39
jgriffithkmartin: thingee we can do those things over IRC too though IMO16:39
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jgriffithdon't need to be in person16:39
jgriffithI mean... propose/schedule16:39
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jgriffithSummit/Session time is valuable, we need to use it for things we can not do virtually16:40
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jgriffithI'd propose an informal get together after the last session on Friday16:41
jgriffithquick summary and plans for things like mid cycle sprint, bug days etc16:41
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hemnajgriffith, +116:42
kmartinjgriffith: sounds good...I'll be there till Saturday16:42
hemnaor even an unconference on Monday could cover that as well16:42
jgriffithhemna: I think it's hard to have a summary before we have our sessions16:43
jgriffithand I"m not letting everybody borrow my time machine16:43
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jgriffithalright... end meeting?16:44
jgriffithgoing once....16:44
* DuncanT probably shouldn't be allowed to drive other poeple's time machines... he keeps denting his own16:44
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jgriffithgoing twice....16:44
jgriffithwe out16:45
coolsvapout we go!16:45
jgriffithremember we have openstack-cinder and -dev channels16:45
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"16:45
openstackMeeting ended Wed May  7 16:45:19 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)16:45
openstackMinutes (text):
jgriffiththanks everyone!!!  Looking forward to seeing all of you next week!!!16:45
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tjones#startmeeting vmwareapi17:00
openstackMeeting started Wed May  7 17:00:24 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is tjones. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: vmwareapi)"17:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'vmwareapi'17:00
tjoneshi anyone around today?17:00
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tjones*listens to crickets*17:02
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tjoneswell….  i don't have much to say anyway17:05
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tjonesso here is the link for the juno prio.  Much of which we will discuss at the summit17:07
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tjonesi am looking for owners for the following bugs17:08
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tjonesparticularly #link
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1316433 in nova "vmware: nova compute memory grows continuously with creation and deletions on VMs" [High,New]17:08
tjonesand i am going to end the meeting17:09
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tjonesvuil: hey no one joined so ....17:13
tjonesall i said was17:13
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tjoneslink to juno stuff17:14
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tjonesneed owners for bugs irc://
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tjonesanyone here joined late?17:14
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vuilI did :-)17:15
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tjonesyeah no one else did17:15
tjonesthanks to you and dims for helping out on power_on17:16
vuilno worries. I will touch base with dims after the meeting on next steps17:16
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tjonesok im going to end17:20
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:20
openstackMeeting ended Wed May  7 17:20:43 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:20
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notmynameswift team meeting time19:00
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notmyname#startmeeting swift19:01
openstackMeeting started Wed May  7 19:01:29 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'swift'19:01
notmynamehello everyone. who's here for the swift meeting?19:01
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notmynameI wanted to talk about summit prep today19:03
notmynameto make sure everyone is ready and has what they need19:03
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notmyname#topic summit prep: conference19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "summit prep: conference (Meeting topic: swift)"19:03
notmynamethere are quite a few swift-related talks for the conference19:04
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notmynameas a reminder, this is the "get up in front and give a presentation lecture" sort of thing19:04
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notmynamecschwede: chmouel: peluse_: mjseger: you guys and myself are giving talks. do you have any questions or need anything? how's your prep going?19:05
peluse_ready and willing :)19:05
cschwedenearly ready, excited :)19:05
notmynamepeluse_: I've got to get back with you for a couple of slide, but should be minor19:05
mjsegerEamonn and I are doing a joint presentation at the main summit and have our slides ready to go....19:05
notmynamegreat to hear19:06
peluse_notmyname:  sounds good19:06
notmynameanyone need any basic swift stuff? or bird images? :-)19:06
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cschwedeheh, bird images are always welcome :)19:07
peluse_yeah, would be cool if everyone used the same presentation theme (Swift)19:07
notmynamepeluse_: I'm going to break that rule :-)19:07
notmynameI've got 4 presentations, each with a different presentation theme and tool19:07
peluse_notmyname:  well, variety is the spice of life I guess19:08
notmynameor something...19:08
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notmynameif anything comes up, please email me ( If you need to get in touch with me at the summit, my cell is 254-722-332119:09
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notmyname#topic summit prep: project pod19:09
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*** openstack changes topic to "summit prep: project pod (Meeting topic: swift)"19:10
notmynamewe've got a table all week for us to use19:10
notmynameI'm bringing a projector, in hopes we can shine it on the wall as needed19:10
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notmynamewe'll be in the corner of the room and have plenty of space, I think19:10
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notmynameand I hope that we can use that time for stuff that wasn't able to be scheduled during the summit sessions19:11
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* lpabon here (a little late)19:11
notmynameit will be a great place for ad-hoc swift conversations19:11
notmynamelpabon: do you need anything for conference talk prep? (except my slides)19:11
lpabonfood? :-) .. no I don't think so19:12
notmynameany questions about the swift project pod?19:12
cschwedethat sounds cool (pod). is there a schedule or anything else? so we know when to be there?19:12
notmynameI think we should have some sort of paper/flipchart/whiteboard/link in IRC about a schedule19:12
notmynamecschwede: +119:12
claygnotmyname: will there be punch and pie?19:13
* clayg was lead to believe there would be punch and pie.19:13
notmynameclayg: you signed up to bring that, right?19:13
notmyname#action clayg to bring punch and pie19:13
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donaghI had a prposed session -- that;s now in the cinder track19:14
notmynamewho can make sure there is a schedule sheet on the project pod sheet?19:14
notmynamedonagh: ya, that's next :-)19:14
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donaghits at 4:50 friday ... so some of you may have flown home19:15
portantedonagh: I'll still be there, with bells on19:15
donaghok. We HP guys thought we might be by ourselves19:15
notmynamebetter yet, if you get to the swift table project pod thingy and there isn't a schedule sheet on the table, please take it upon yourself to make one19:15
portantenotmyname: k19:15
cschwededonagh: will be there too19:15
cschwedenotmyname: l19:16
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cschwedeeh, k19:16
donaghI'm lokiing for a keystone person(s)19:16
notmyname#topic summit prep: summit sessions19:16
*** openstack changes topic to "summit prep: summit sessions (Meeting topic: swift)"19:16
notmynamedonagh: has a talk in the cinder track19:16
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notmynameI'm looking forward to it because of the integration with glance and cinder19:17
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notmynameswift sessions:19:17
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notmynameall of the swift specific stuff is split over thursday pm and friday am19:17
notmyname(so don't go home thursday night)19:18
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notmynamefor the swift sessions, remember that this part of the conference is for facilitated discussions, not lecture presentations19:18
notmynameI think there will be a projector there, but please don't give a 40 minute talk about your topic. better to have some high-level discussion things and let the conversation starty19:19
notmynamethose who are leading these sessions (ie those who submitted them), do you have any questions or need anything? how's your prep?19:20
peluse_peluse:  good to go19:20
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claygcreiht: is gunna be busy!19:20
* peluse_ is talking to himself again19:20
portantenotmyname: still workin a bit19:20
KotaKota: I'm in prep but nealy ready19:20
notmynamenote that your original submission may now be combined with another19:20
notmynameI'm really looking forward to the sessions :-)19:21
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notmynameI think this is going to be a great summit19:21
creihtnotmyname: you say that about every summit :)19:21
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KotaI have a question in my session19:22
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notmynamecreiht: and most summits are very good!19:22
notmynameKota: what's up?19:22
KotaI proposed efficient replication but I found another performance issue for ssync replication.19:22
portantebring it on!19:23
KotaOfcause I present proposed efficient replication but I'm not sure that issue I found.19:23
Kotaportante: Ok, I'll try to include the information.19:24
portantesounds like it will be a good summit session, then19:24
portanteI think you'll be able to get the discussion going19:24
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notmynameother summit tracks I'd love to have swift participation in are the cross project workshops and the ops workshop19:25
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notmynameboth of those have topics that are relevant to us (cross project) and relevant to our users (ops meetup)19:25
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notmynamewe have a reputation in the ops world as being the easiest openstack project to administer, so let's continue to listen to the feedback and ensure that we can make things better and help others where we can19:26
notmynameany other questions on the summit sessions?19:27
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notmynameok, let's move on to non-summit stuff19:28
notmyname#topic functional tests19:28
*** openstack changes topic to "functional tests (Meeting topic: swift)"19:28
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notmynameportante: you've been working on getting the in-process func tests running in the gate19:28
notmynamewhat's the status?19:28
portanteand it appears to be working, though waiting for the merge of master onto feature/ec for it to work there19:28
portanteonce that happens, we can make it "voting"19:29
portanteright now, it is non-voting19:29
notmynameportante: what about the coverage report?19:29
portanteso the coverage report is going to be interesting19:29
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portantefirst, there is lots of code that are not covered by a strict run19:29
portantemeaning, just run the functional tests once and done19:30
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portanteno unit tests (can't cheat)19:30
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portantethe daemons are not covered19:31
portantenor is the cli sub-tree19:31
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portantethere are two swift.common modules which are not inoked at all, and a bunch of middleware19:31
notmynamethe middleware doesn't surprise me19:31
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notmynameportante: where are we at now for percentage covered in functests?19:32
portantethe tact taking for the in-process functional tests was to follow the sample middleware from the conf file19:32
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portanteI have not boiled it down to one number, yet19:32
portantethought the raw number now is 54%19:32
portantegimme a sec, I'll post a link for folks ...19:33
notmynameportante: do you expect to add the cli and daemon testing to the functional tests or improve probe tests to give similar reporting?19:33
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notmynamechmouel: cschwede (?) next question for you is about the swiftclient tests in devstack19:34
portanteI am not sure it is possible to get functional tests to cover cli19:34
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cschwedeportante: why not?19:34
portantearguably, we'd apply this same tact to probetests, and the daemons would get covered19:34
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portantefunc tests are all about the REST API calls, the cli commands are more backend type stuff19:35
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portanteswiftclient, etc. are the analogous front end cli, and that is, well, out of tree19:35
* notmyname is "working" on getting the probetests to run against a non saio19:35
portantecool, that would be a cool think to knock out over summit19:36
notmynamewell, perhaps "interested in" is a better way to say that :-/19:36
portanteor perhaps the hackathon19:36
notmynametdasilva: portante: does the just-proposed patch to refactor functests affect the in-process at all? let me rephrase: are you two talking to one another?19:37
notmynameok :-)19:37
tdasilvayes talking19:37
cschwedeportante: hmm, i need to think about that. i thought we could run functional tests for swiftclient on the gate s well19:37
portantecschwede: what do you mean?19:37
tdasilvano, it doesn affect the in-process19:37
notmynamecschwede: well, that's what I was going to ask you about19:37
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portanteare you saying, you want to use the in-process swift servers to run the swiftclient against?19:38
portantethat is doable19:38
cschwedeportante: no, one second19:38
cschwedeportante: there are now functional tests for swiftclient too19:38
cschwedemerged… yesterda19:38
cschwedeso the idea (from chmouel) was to run these on the gate too19:39
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portanteokay, that is doable19:39
cschwedeso we need a saio for this, and then run swiftclient functional tests against it19:40
notmynamecschwede: these functests test an arbitrary swift endpoint?19:40
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cschwedenotmyname: yes, by using this:
notmynamecschwede: ok, cool19:41
cschwedei tried to do it the same way as for swift itself19:41
notmynamecschwede: so SAIO or devstack19:41
notmynamemakes sense19:41
cschwedeyes, devstack is fine too i think19:41
notmynamecschwede: which is where chmouel's comments about getting it in devstack comes from19:41
notmynamecschwede: otherwise, it's hard to get in the gate19:41
lpabonportante: on cli testing... our QA added funtional tests to cover cli in gluster-swift/swiftonfile19:42
cschwedenotmyname: ok, I will have a look at this and try to propose a solution19:42
portantelpabon: okay, we can talk offline19:42
notmynamecschwede: in general, if we have tests that provide value, we should do what's reasonable to get them included in the gate19:43
cschwedenotmyname: yes, fully agree!19:43
portantein-process functional tests are all about running paco in the same process as the nose test runner to allow for coverage19:43
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notmynameand I was talking with mordred the other day about getting a better config for swift in devstack. better testing would help here, I think19:44
notmynamecschwede: ^19:44
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portanteadding functional tests for cli commands would be great to have, but I don't think will work with the in-process servers19:44
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notmynamecschwede: that is to say, if you (and chmouel?) are looking at getting the swiftclient tests in the gate, maybe that will also involve improving the swift devstack config19:45
notmynameanything else to cover about testing here in the meeting?19:45
claygnotmyname: the devstack config is probably fine for functional swiftclient tests19:45
portantemore of it19:45
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notmynameclayg: ah, cool19:46
notmynameclayg: which makes sense, actually19:46
cschwedeclayg: yes, swiftclient functional should mainly require a basic swift installation, nothing special19:46
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notmyname#topic open discussion19:47
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: swift)"19:47
notmynameanything else to cover here this week19:48
notmynamealso, as a logistics note, I propose we skip next week's meeting because of the summit19:48
portanteis there room at the summit for impromptu scheduled disscussions?19:48
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cschwedeanyone attending the sunday afternoon hackathon?19:48
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notmynameportante: that would be the project pod, I think19:48
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notmynamecschwede: I'm going to stick my head in probably19:48
peluse_the mother's day hackathon?19:48
zaitcevhow can "scheduled" be "impromptu"19:48
notmynamesunday pm storage hackathon19:49
notmyname#link  http://osstorage-hack.eventbrite.com19:49
notmynamewednesday pm swiftstack party19:49
notmynameany other questions?19:50
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zaitcevstorage thing looks interestin... I should review the enovance's patch before that19:51
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portantezaitcev: what patch are you referring to?19:51
cschwedezaitcev: you mean for ceph?19:51
cschwedei will try to move that to stackforge tomorrow19:52
peluse_zaitcev:  yeah, we hjave some interest in that patch as well and will be looking more cloesly soon too19:52
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cschwedethere will be a talk as well, and a part of it is related to that patch:
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notmynamethat's during the swift summit sessions19:54
cschwedeyes :-/19:54
notmynamethanks everyone for being here today. see you next week!19:55
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"19:55
openstackMeeting ended Wed May  7 19:55:40 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)19:55
peluse_for sure!19:55
openstackMinutes (text):
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zaneb#startmeeting heat20:00
openstackMeeting started Wed May  7 20:00:40 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is zaneb. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)"20:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'heat'20:00
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zanebwhy is my window really narrow?20:01
tspatzierhi all20:01
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zanebmight be a short one this week20:02
* wirehead_ queues up lolcats20:02
zaneb#topic Review last meeting's actions20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Review last meeting's actions (Meeting topic: heat)"20:02
zanebthere weren't any!20:02
zaneb#topic Adding items to the agenda20:02
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zanebanybody at all?20:03
stevebakerzaneb: client request retry policy20:03
SpamapSgood one20:03
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SpamapSlowered in priority as we move toward convergence tho. :)20:04
mordredSpamapS: you're moving toward convergence20:04
SpamapSI'm converging on convergence.20:04
zanebSpamapS: for the record I still think your schedule for that is hopelessly optimistic20:05
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shardystevebaker: fwiw I think that's something we should be driving into the clients, ideally via common library code20:05
wirehead_Well, that can be a problem.  If we're going to start de-prioritizing things like client request retries, we'd better make damn sure we get convergence merged expeditiously.20:05
SpamapSzaneb: me too, but I've got High Apple Pie up in the SKY hopes.20:05
zaneb#topic client request retry policy20:05
*** openstack changes topic to "client request retry policy (Meeting topic: heat)"20:05
shardystevebaker: as opposed to something we want to handle explicitly in heat20:05
zanebsince it appear we already started :D20:05
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SpamapSwirehead_: everybody get out and push, right? :)20:06
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zanebSpamapS: ok, but it's not clear to me how unrealistic hopes are helpful to good planning20:06
SpamapSSo I don't mean to be flippant.20:06
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*** IlyaE has quit IRC20:06 is ... primitive.  I'm thinking that a client lib should be contributed via a plugin, which matches recent plugins-all-the-things activity20:06
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SpamapS_I_ want a long term solution, but I will certainly chase short term patches for extremely important issues.20:07
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zanebSpamapS: right, we should do both20:07
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stevebakera client plugin can provide standard handling of things like NotFound ignoring20:07
shardy+1 on anything which avoids while loops in every resources, or heat-specific wrappers for every client20:07
zanebstevebaker: ++20:07
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SpamapSThe question is, what now is the better course.. driving retry into all other client libs.. or doing while loops until we get to convergence, which is effectively going to be a massive retry loop. :)20:09
stevebakerand eventually could provide a way of invoking client calls with a particular retry policy. Policies could be things like tolerate NotFound, retry on 500, fetch a new token and retry if token expires etc20:09
shardySpamapS: can't we drive the retry via oslo, that's where all the base client stuff lives right?20:09
SpamapSshardy: I haven't been following that work.20:09
SpamapSso I am not sure.20:09
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stevebakerSpamapS: I don't think every retry scenario could be handled by client libs20:09
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zanebSpamapS: it's not clear to me that retries would be a bad thing even in the convergence model20:10
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stevebakeranywhoo, I just wanted to start the topic, to see if I should flesh out a clients plugin blueprint to present at
shardystevebaker: I'm just arguing against fixing it in a way which all of openstack won't benefit from20:10
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zanebSpamapS: the point of convergence is that you can deal with it when things fail. It's still always better if they don't fail.20:10
wirehead_Just a data point — in our production experience, we see a LOT more errors that are of the indeterminate case than we do of the simple easy-to-retry cases20:10
shardyretrying failed API calls is hardly specific to heat20:10
wirehead_e.g. "Hey, we got a 500 from Nova and this means that we may or may not be getting a server"20:11
stevebakershardy: heat is different to other client users. Horizon has a monkey who can click the button again if a request fails.20:11
SpamapSzaneb: they would certainly not be a bad thing. The model makes failures less costly is all.20:11
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zanebSpamapS: cool, we agree then :)20:11
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SpamapSwirehead_: right, undefined states are a bug in Nova and most are impossible to deal with automatically no matter what model we use.20:12
shardystevebaker: lol ;)20:12
shardystevebaker: I still think it's a common pattern which should be solved in a common way, once20:12
wirehead_SpamapS: well, not entirely.  For example, you can add metadata to the server and wait-and-see if the server eventually comes up with the metadata you set.20:13
stevebakereventually client retry policies could be configured via heat.conf, to tailor for snowflake failure modes of particular clouds20:13
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zanebstevebaker: what about moving to python-openstackclient as our client lib?20:13
SpamapSwirehead_: Most of those are solvable and are more often retryable if the API gives us a user defined guaranteed-to-be-unique-ID.20:13
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zanebdon't know if that has a more consistent interface?20:13
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stevebakerzaneb: I think that is a common cli which just depends on all the client libs20:13
shardyzaneb: we could consider that for the v2 API, like keystone has, but it's a fairly user-hostile move IMO20:14
SpamapSzaneb: that would be pretty sane. But what we saw 2 months ago was that it was still immature.20:14
shardyalso there is no support for heat atm (or last time I checked there wasn't) so could be significant work20:14
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stevebakersomeone should totally add that20:14
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zanebaction, stevebaker to totally add that20:15
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shardystevebaker: I meant to look into it but $other_stuff has got in the way20:15
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stevebakershardy: I agree that some retry logic should be pushed into client libs, but heat will have to do something for some transient errors20:15
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stevebakeranyway, I'll describe my solution during and even if we don't do the retry policy, client plugins will still add some value20:16
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shardystevebaker: I'd still like clarification of why heat requires special handling of such errors, vs users getting annoyed when spurious failures happen via horizon or any other service driving other APIs20:17
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shardystevebaker: not necessarily right now, it can wait for the beer track next week ;)20:18
stevebakershardy: because tripleo don't want to brick their cloud due to one transient error20:18
wirehead_mmmm... beer track20:18
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wirehead_Also, autoscale :)20:18
pas-hashardy: one thing might be autoscaling, when resources are upd and down constantly20:18
pas-hawirehead_: stolen20:18
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shardystevebaker: so they won't, we'll implement convergence and retry from failed states in heat, and client retry-n-times loops in some client code (hopefully common and not all-the-*fooclients)20:19
stevebakerpas-ha: are you suggesting a *rum* track at summit ?!20:19
pas-hastevebaker: lol :)20:19
SpamapSI think in Hotlanta they drink Hennessey.20:19
shardypas-ha: I still don't get the specialness, you retry until it works, or give up after $n attempts, possibly with some multiplier on the delay between attempts or something20:20
wirehead_I move that the Triple-O team brings cases of Belgian Trippels.20:20
wirehead_But seriously, most of what triple-o needs, autoscale needs just as bad if not worse.20:20
SpamapSwhich errors are getting special handling?20:21
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zanebSpamapS: none, at the moment20:21
zanebSpamapS: shardy's question is, why is this only Heat's problem?20:21
stevebakershardy: I'm probably thinking more of client calls with no side-effects, say a server get should retry a couple of times and ignore any kind of error, then just give up and its no big deal to use the stale server object20:21
shardywell keystone user deletes used to, then I removed it and have not yet reinstated it20:21
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shardystevebaker: Ok, got it, so that's kinda additional error-path tolerance on top of the retry20:22
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stevebakershardy: as an aside, KeystoneClientV3 could become one of these client plugins, but it would be registered as 'auth' rather than 'keystone'20:23
shardyzaneb: exactly, stuff randomly failing is a bad experience regardless of what user you are20:24
shardystevebaker: Ok, cool, well the keystoneclient wrapper is pluggable already20:24
shardydo we really want to abstract every client like that?20:24
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shardythe heat_keystoneclient stuff atm is a bit of a mess and not really something we want to proliferate, IMO20:24
* shardy holds his hands up as the reason it's in a mess20:25
wirehead_I feel like these conversations are what leads people to write articles like "Why I don't use any API wrapper libraries ever"20:25
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stevebakershardy: its not abstracting it, there will still be direct access to the client lib, but the client plugin can provide extra behaviours like consistent error handling, and invoking client calls with a particular retry policy20:25
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shardystevebaker: Ok, but I'd still prefer us to get what logic we can into the clients20:26
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stevebakerits not a wrapper, honest! ;)20:26
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zanebok, it seems like we're ready to move on20:29
stevebakerfunnily enough, horizon *does* have a wrapper for every client lib20:29
wirehead_Yeah, I was starting to wonder about that.20:29
shardystevebaker: even more reason not to invent another one IMO20:29
SpamapSone last thought..20:30
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SpamapSit's Heat's problem because Heat's whole reason for being is automation.20:30
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SpamapSso if Heat _can_ automate a solution to an obvious problem, it should.20:30
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shardySpamapS: I'm not saying don't solve it, I'm just arging where the code which solves it should go should benefit everyone, not just heat20:31
sdakeo/ sorry late :)20:31
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stevebakershardy: I agree, but there would be _some_ behaviours that would be considered too high-level to belong in a client lib20:31
SpamapSshardy: Agree that there are many, even most, cases where the client library should contain the recovery code.20:31
zanebaction items on this?20:32
shardySpamapS, stevebaker: cool, I think we're pretty much in agreement then20:32
stevebakerzaneb: me write a blueprint20:32
stevebakerzaneb: for client plugins20:32
SpamapSme choose color for bikeshed20:32
zaneb#action stevebaker to write a blueprint for client plugins20:33
zaneb#topic Design Summit preparation20:33
*** openstack changes topic to "Design Summit preparation (Meeting topic: heat)"20:33
zanebI created etherpads for all of the sessions that didn't have one already20:33
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zanebif folks could go there and add in detail on what they want to discuss, that would be helpful preparation20:34
shardyOh randallburt isn't around, I was going to see if he wanted me to help add detail for the v2 API one20:34
wirehead_i am wondering if we should create a fresh etherpad for Scaling, Robustness, and Convergence.20:34
shardyI may add some bullet points there anyway20:35
andrew_plunkshardy I would assume he would20:35
zanebalso, we'll need somebody to kick off the discussion in each session, introduce the topic and what the issues are &c.20:35
SpamapSLet's see if Ludacris is available20:36
zaneband if you are the proposer of a session, you are on the hook for finding someone to do that20:36
* stevebaker volunteers for
shardyzaneb: I can co-introduce the v2 API one with randall, provided he's cool with that20:36
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zanebshardy: cool, I think he mentioned already that he was20:36
zanebI don't need to collect names, just wanted to make session proposers aware that it's on them ;)20:37
shardyzaneb: likewise the auth-model part of the dev/ops session20:37
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wirehead_zaneb: so, the merged best that became scaling, robustness, and convergence?20:37
tspatzierstevebaker: I collected a summary of recent ML discussions on that topic. That gives us more detail on some points for sw-orch and let's us cross out other points already20:37
tspatzierstevebaker: ... and I am fine if you run this :-)20:38
zanebwirehead_: yes20:38
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wirehead_Who counts as the owner?20:38
stevebakertspatzier: were there some items we could take off your original list based on that thread?20:38
zanebwirehead_: lifeless20:38
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SpamapSThe really important duty that isn't stated there is that the "leader" of a session's chief goal is to continuously drive the discussion toward the resulting actions of the session.20:39
tspatzierstevebaker: yes, based on your comments to the ML post, I think some items are answered20:39
zanebwirehead_: but if you have something to contribute, bring it20:39
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stevebakertspatzier: ok, do you want to go ahead and butcher that etherpad?20:39
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zanebSpamapS: I thought you didn't want to have "leaders"?20:39
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SpamapSzaneb: I do, but they've been distorted into presenters.20:39
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SpamapSzaneb: the point is that nobody should be standing in front of the crowd, talking at them.20:40
zanebok, we definitely don't want that20:40
shardySpamapS: +1, and I think we should ban any presentations other than 5mins to give context at the start20:40
stevebakerits more like a chair to keep us on track20:40
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tspatzierstevebaker: I can do it. Maybe let me send you the summary I've got and if you are ok with it I can copy the contents to the ether pad and do some formatting20:40
wirehead_Yeah.  Servent-to-the-crowds and passer-of-the-mic20:40
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stevebakertspatzier: or, we could use the collaborative content tool to collaborate on the content ;)20:41
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zanebwe'll also need volunteers for the note-taking, but we can do that on an ad-hoc basis on the day20:41
tspatzierstevebaker: why not :-) I'll just copy my refined collection to the end, we'll hack on it and then remove the old stuff20:42
stevebakertspatzier: +120:42
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zanebPSA: shardy and I are giving a talk on Monday morning, right after the keynotes20:43
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thervezaneb, Do you want some to put a name in the etherpad as the "leader" ?20:43
zanebit would be great to get as many heat people there as possible to answer questions afterwards20:44
shardyYeah, come and laugh at my attempt to do a live demo :)20:44
wirehead_how about we call them "toastmaster" instead of "leader"?20:44
zanebtherve: if you like, but not necessary20:44
wirehead_Only 50% kidding about that20:44
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zaneblooking for the other Heat talks...20:45
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* zaneb curses the Demo Theater20:45
shardystevebaker: you have one on software config don't you?20:45
tspatzierstevebaker: I copied my content. Feel free to give it a first pass while I go to sleep after this meeting.20:45
stevebakertspatzier: ok20:46
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zanebthat ^ is randall and kebray's talk20:46
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stevebakeralso I'm on this panel, I'm not sure if it overlaps with our last design session
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zanebcool, didn't even know about that one20:47
stevebakerhopefully its not one of the bloodsport panels20:47
zanebhopefully it is :D20:47
SpamapSYou mean hopefully it _IS_20:48
SpamapS4 men enter, 1 man leaves... In a huff.20:48
zanebdebating TOSCA with Georgy...20:48
* zaneb makes a note to bring popcorn20:48
stevebakerwhat could possibly go wrong20:48
tspatzierwe are running a special session on heat-translator on Thursday afternoon:
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tspatzierI shared that on the ML already. Not purely Heat, but *very* closely related. Would be great to see many of you there.20:49
zanebthanks tspatzier, that's going to be a really interesting one I think20:51
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zaneb#topic Open Discussion20:51
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zanebanything else?20:51
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wirehead_I'm assuming we'll see y'all at the summit?20:52
tspatzierzaneb: yep, I hope so. We are also putting together an etherpad with agenda draft. I will send a link tomorrow so people can provide input20:52
zanebwirehead_: nope, we've decided to go transparent20:52
wirehead_So I'll walk through the hall and get slapped.  A lot.20:53
stevebakerI'm coming in disguise20:53
zaneboh, one reminder20:53
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zanebwe will have a project pod at the summit20:53
SpamapSAny chance we will gather for an informal toast to Orchestration and the end of the magnificent reign of the long line of Steve's?20:53
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zanebSpamapS: I certainly hope so20:54
stevebakerI'll drink to that20:54
shardy+1 :)20:54
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zanebSpamapS: you meant 'reign of terror', right?20:54
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zanebso I'm not sure about the pod details20:55
zanebwe may be sharing with another project20:55
zanebbut basically it's a big table20:55
zaneband there will be a flipchart we can use for scheduling20:55
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wirehead_We'll start acting like the other team.  Kinda like pod people.20:56
SpamapSas long as it isn't just a shared iPod.. I'm not putting randallburt's earbuds in my ear.... ;)20:56
zanebso take advantage of it if you need to continue to discuss something outside the design sessions20:56
wirehead_I'll run your code, but I won't wear your earbuds, bro.20:56
stevebakerI want to bend some ears about how servers in isolated neutron networks can communicate with heat20:57
SpamapSstevebaker: yes20:57
SpamapSand with that.. I must reboot20:57
* SpamapS o/'s early20:57
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zanebtime to wrap up anyway20:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"20:58
openstackMeeting ended Wed May  7 20:58:52 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)20:58
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zanebthanks everyone!20:59
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tspatzierCU all next week20:59
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