Tuesday, 2014-06-17

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yamahatahello05:00
OSMHello Yamahata05:01
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yisunhi05:02
yamahatayisun: hi05:02
yamahata#startmeeting servicevm-device-manager05:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 17 05:02:42 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.05:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.05:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:02
Christian_Mhi05:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager'05:02
yamahatawait minutes for others05:03
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yamahatas3wong will skip this meeting because he's at mid cycle meeting05:03
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yamahataand it's midnight there.05:04
Christian_MWill others skip it too ?05:04
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yamahataI'm not sure. Maybe today's meeting would be short.05:05
yamahataOkay let's get started05:06
yamahata#topic Announcement05:06
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*** openstack changes topic to "Announcement (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:06
yamahatairc channel #tacker is available.05:06
yamahataLast week I announced, but it was secret mode somehow. Now it's visible for all.05:07
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yamahatarequest for stackforge repo is still under review. 1 +1 now.05:07
yamahataIt has taken longer than I expected. Hopefully soon05:08
Christian_MWho can add +1, -1 ? Everyone of just 'core' members ?05:08
yamahata#topic Action Items from the last week05:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Action Items from the last week (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:08
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yamahata#undo05:08
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x1f44790>05:08
balajipyamahata:are we going to change IRC channel to #tacker from next meeting?05:08
yamahataAnita Kuno gave +105:08
yamahatabalajip: no. IRC meeting will be held at #openstack-meeting for meeting log05:09
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yamahataI think Anita Kuno is one of cores05:09
balajipok05:09
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yamahata#topic Action Items from the last week05:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Action Items from the last week (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:10
yamahatas3won conntacted rossella_s. she isn't actively working on l2-gateway stuff. But please keep her in cycles.05:10
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yamahataI've contacted Eric Moe for VLAN-aware-VM, but didn't get reply.05:11
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yamahataSo I've create spec for l2-gateway based on the existing BP.05:12
yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100278/ l2-gateway spec05:12
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yamahataI created a wiki page for neutron port attributes05:12
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yamahata#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ServiceVM/neutron-port-attributes05:13
yamahata#topic project-incubation05:13
*** openstack changes topic to "project-incubation (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:13
yamahatanot much progress since the last week05:14
yamahataAfter repository creation, API/data model will be discussed with gerrit05:14
yamahata#topic nfv followup05:15
*** openstack changes topic to "nfv followup (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:15
yamahataI think no much since last week.05:15
yamahataDoes anyone have anything?05:15
yisunAre we going to consolidate l2-gateway with the vlan bp proposed by Ian?05:16
balajipyamahata:Usecase section has to be updated for the given link05:16
yamahata#topic blueprint follow up05:16
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprint follow up (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:16
yamahatayisun: yes. I think we should.05:16
yisunyamahata: got it, thanks05:17
yamahatabalajip: which link?05:17
balajipyamahata:https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ServiceVM/neutron-port-attributes05:17
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yamahatabalajip: it's a wiki. Can you please fix it?05:18
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yamahata#action balajip fix the link05:18
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balajipyamahata:ok05:19
yamahataFor vlan trunk port, we have three proposal and we should consolidate and unite.05:19
yamahataSo far Ian hasn't replied yet.05:20
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yamahataI expect l2-gateway proposal needs discussion to be refined.05:20
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yamahataI also created a spec for unfirewall port as OVS ML2 portsecurity extension05:21
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yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/99873/ ML2 OVS portsecurity extension05:21
yisunyamahata: I thought Ian also created a similar bp, didn’t he?05:22
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yamahatayisun: yes. His BP is something similar to VLAN trunk port. but it doesn't include any concrete data model/API.05:22
yisunBut it seems that yours is moving much faster05:22
yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/97714/ VLAN trunking networks for NFV05:23
yisunyamahata: I thought that he also proposing unfirewall, but I’m sure if he has created a bp or not05:23
yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/97715/ NFV unaddressed interfaces05:24
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yamahataHis unfirewall proposal is unaddressed port == unfirewall port05:24
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yamahataI left review message to point the link of ML2 OVS portsecurity05:24
yisunyamahata: got it05:25
yamahataFor routervm, unfirewalled port with address is needed.05:25
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yisunyamahata: btw- I did not see you propose any API in your portsecurity extension05:26
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yisunhow a ml2 ovs knows when to disable the portsecurity?05:26
yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/99873/05:27
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yisunyamahat: yes, I read it. but I did not see any new APIs05:27
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yisunyou only mentioned that ML2 plugin will support securitygroup extension05:28
yamahatayisun: port will have a new attribute to disable security05:28
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yamahatayisun: neutron/extensions/portsecurity.py defines API. I should have mentioned it in the spec.05:28
yisunyamahata: ok05:29
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yamahatayisun: network and port will have a new attribute, port_security_enabled, default true.05:29
yamahataThe value will be sent to ovs agent. the port will be set up based on the value05:29
yisunyamahata: got it, let me check with Gary Duan to see if this is all we want. We hacked neutron to turn off the securitygroup05:30
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yamahatayisun: Cool. If Gary Duan have alreay a patch, can we share it?05:30
yamamotoit’s shame portsecurity has no docs here http://docs.openstack.org/api/openstack-network/2.0/content/API_extensions.html05:31
yisunyamahata: what we have is a “real” hack, but let me find Gary and check with him tomorrow05:31
yamahatayamamoto: Then we should also document it.05:31
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yamahatayisun: got it.05:31
yamahatayamamoto: then, the spec needs to be updated to mention documentation?05:32
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yamahataanything else?05:33
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yamahata#action yisun fin Gary and check with him tomorrow for reusable patch for ML2 OVS port security05:33
Christian_Mnot from me05:33
yisunI’m good05:34
yamamotoyamahata: i guess filing a bug is more appropriate action05:34
yamahatayamamoto: got it.05:34
yamahata#action yamahata file a bug for documentation of portsecurity05:34
yamamotoi haven’t checked if there’s existing bug05:35
yamahatayamamoto: I see.05:35
yamahataOkay next target of blueprint is unaddressed port, I think.05:36
yamahataDo we have any use case?05:36
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yamahataSo far I haven't see concrete use case of it at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ServiceVM/neutron-port-attributes05:36
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yamahataanyone volunteer for spec?05:37
yisunok, here is one use case:05:37
yisunmy VM is a firewall VM to provide firewall service, I can greate interface when service instance is created05:38
yisunBut when the fw service instance is deleted from the tenant, I may not delete the VM vNic since it could be reused for other FW service instance05:39
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yisunBefore the vNic is bind to any new FW service instance, it does not really have an ip address05:39
yisunBut it could have a MAC05:39
yamahatayisun: during unused time, the port is unaddressed.05:40
yisunyamahata: correct, it does not have an address05:40
yamahatayisun: I see. So only IP address is unaddressed, but MAC doesn't need to be unaddressed.05:40
yamahataThen only ip address05:40
yisunyamahata: yes05:40
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yamahatayisun: can you please add it to the wiki page?05:41
yamamotowhy you want to keep vnic?  to keep mac address unchanged?05:41
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yisunyamamoto: just to same the effort to unplug/plug interface05:42
yisuns/same/save/05:42
yamamotosave admin’s efforts?05:43
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yisunyamamoto: yes05:44
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yamamotoi see05:45
yisunanother use case is so called v-wire mode05:45
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yisunwhen a firewall is running in the v-wire mode, it does not have ip/mac05:45
yamamotomy impression is the use case is a little weak, though05:45
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yisunyamamoto: v-wire or port unplug?05:46
yamahatayisun: Is v-wire something like bump-in-the-wire?05:47
yamahataI don't know what v-wire means05:47
yamamotoi meant “save admin’s effort” one05:47
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yisunyamahata: some time I got confused by bump-in-the-wire, in different context it is used for different meaning05:48
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yisunyamamoto: ok05:48
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yisunyamahata:http://blog.davidvassallo.me/2012/05/30/lessons-learned-palo-alto-in-vwire-mode/05:50
yamahatayisun: thanks for the link05:50
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yamahatayisun: I meant figure 3 in https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fmCWpCxAN4g5txmCJVmBDt02GYew2kvyRsh0Wl3YF2U/edit?pli=105:50
yamahatayisun: I'll look into the link05:51
yisunyamahata: I just did a good and copy the most relavent link I found05:51
yisuns/good/google/05:51
yamahatayisun: do you have more use cases?05:52
yisunhow about a TAP port?05:52
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yisunnot sure if it counts05:52
yisunyamahata: yes the vwire is similar to the figure 305:53
yamahata#action yisun add use cases of unaddressed port to the wiki page05:53
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yamahataAfter collecting use case, we can break them down to the actual spec05:53
yamahataanything to discuss on specs/blueprints?05:54
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yamahata#topic open discussion05:55
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:55
yamahataanything to discuss?05:55
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yamahataSeems none.05:56
yamahatasee you next week05:56
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Christian_Mok thanks05:56
yamahatathanks05:56
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yamamotothank you05:57
yamahata#endmeeting05:57
*** openstack changes topic to "launchpad openid is down. login to openstack services will fail until launchpad openid is happy again"05:57
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 17 05:57:25 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)05:57
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-06-17-05.02.html05:57
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-06-17-05.02.txt05:57
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-06-17-05.02.log.html05:57
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sc68cal#startmeeting neutron_ipv613:59
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 17 13:59:39 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:59
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:59
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)"13:59
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6'13:59
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sc68calHello all13:59
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HenryGo/14:00
aveigao/14:00
xuhanphello14:00
carlpMorning14:00
dane_leblanchello14:00
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sc68calSo yesterday kyle and mark conducted a meeting about ipv6 features for juno14:01
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sc68calI put some notes down from the meeting, so I'll give people some time to go through it and digest14:01
sc68calhttps://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings#IPv6_.28sc68cal.2914:01
BrianB_hi14:01
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sc68calSo the main change in the roadmap is that cores do not want to put support for RAs in Neutron via dnsmasq14:04
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sc68calinstead, they would prefer that support for RAs be developed using radvd14:05
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HenryGThe radvd blueprint is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/neutron-ipv6-radvd-ra14:05
HenryGI hope to have a spec filed for it by tomorrow14:05
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aveigathanks, HenryG14:06
aveigaleet me know if you need any help with it14:06
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sc68calSo what's everyone's thoughts?14:08
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carlpI think radvd is better than dnsmasq in this case14:10
aveiga+114:10
xuhanpsc68cal, how to deal with the spec I just wrote?14:10
dane_leblancI think RADVD is a better approach, less hacking from what I can tell14:10
aveigaradvd provides more support for things like unicast RA, as well14:10
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haleybIs there plans to add dnsmasq support later?  i guess i (eventually) saw it as a way to save a namespace - i.e. router namespace where dnsmasq lives for v4 and v6, and also save another process running, since there's one per network14:11
haleybbut i'm fine with it for now14:11
aveigathe namespace isn't directly connected with the RA daemon choice14:12
aveigaif it's radvd or dnsmasq, they still have to have a qrouter namespace14:12
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haleybright, but if dnsmasq moved into the qrouter namespace we could remove the qdhcp14:12
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haleybwe have lots of namespaces on production nodes14:13
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sc68calI don't know if that would be possible thoug14:14
sc68calsince Neutron still creates the q-dhcp NS for dhcp for v414:14
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haleybit might not be today, i see it as future work, i wasn't around when the decision to have both a qrouter and qdhcp namespace was made, i would have maybe chosen just one14:15
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aveigahaleyb: I'm concerned though that radvd will still be necessary for advanced features when we get that far14:16
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aveigamy proposal for flaoting IPv6 requires unicast RA14:16
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aveigadnsmasq will not be adding support for it, per http://lists.thekelleys.org.uk/pipermail/dnsmasq-discuss/2012q3/006262.html14:17
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haleybi'm fine with radvd as i actually understand it's syntax better.  i'll read henry's spec and comment there14:17
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sc68calxuhanp: regarding your question about your BP for dnsmasq and slaac/slaac config14:25
xuhanpsc68cal, maybe I should change that to Stateful DHCP?14:25
xuhanpfor next steps14:25
sc68calThat's a good point14:26
xuhanpOK. will try to do that after the RADVD spec comes out.14:26
sc68caland then I guess list the radvd bp as a dependency?14:26
xuhanpsc68cal, yep14:26
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sc68calIf there isn't anything else, I can give everyone back half an hour14:29
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dane_leblancI didn't see the multiple prefix BP listed in the minutes for the meeting with the cores.14:30
dane_leblanchttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/98217/4/specs/juno/multiple-ipv6-prefixes.rst14:30
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dane_leblancJust want to make sure that doesn't fall off for lack of interest or priority14:30
sc68caldane_leblanc: feel free to add it to my sub-section14:30
dane_leblancsc68cal, will do, thanks.14:31
sc68calI'll try to get cores to take a look at it14:31
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sc68calI know i'm nit picking you on the rst syntax, I'll try and post a patch to better explain how to do hyperlinks in rst14:32
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dane_leblancI think what I use is an alternate approach, I'll add a response, but I'm open for suggestions.14:32
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sc68calSure - it's just that currently it doesn't render to HTML very well14:33
sc68calsome of the links in the references section are broken, etc.14:33
dane_leblancI test it with the online reSt editor (http://rst.ninjs.org/), seems to work fine there.14:34
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sc68calThat editor has caused problems before14:34
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sc68calWhere it looks ok in ninjs but does not render the same by sphinx14:34
sc68caldane_leblanc: see - http://docs-draft.openstack.org/17/98217/4/check/gate-neutron-specs-docs/75c8ebf/doc/build/html/specs/juno/multiple-ipv6-prefixes.html#references14:35
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dane_leblancThat output looks good to me.14:35
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sc68calRef-2 and Ref-3 and Ref-7 are hyperlinks that don't go anywhere14:35
dane_leblancThose have multiple references in the prior text...14:36
sc68calthe actual "Ref-2" text14:36
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sc68calit creates a link to "http://docs-draft.openstack.org/17/98217/4/check/gate-neutron-specs-docs/75c8ebf/doc/build/html/specs/juno/multiple-ipv6-prefixes.html#id3" which doesn't exist14:36
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sc68calso tl;dr is basically ninjs sucks and doesn't render stuff right14:37
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dane_leblancSphinx isn't handling the "citation" syntax...14:37
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dane_leblancI'll look into it.14:37
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dane_leblancThe Ref-2 link should point you back to the prior ref in the doc.14:38
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sc68calok everyone, until next week14:40
sc68cal#endmeeting14:40
*** openstack changes topic to "launchpad openid is down. login to openstack services will fail until launchpad openid is happy again"14:40
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 17 14:40:25 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:40
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-06-17-13.59.html14:40
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-06-17-13.59.txt14:40
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-06-17-13.59.log.html14:40
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bauzasjoin #openstack-meeting-alt14:59
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n0anobauzas, I think that's #join :-)15:00
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bauzasdammit15:00
n0ano#startmeeting gantt15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 17 15:00:42 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'gantt'15:00
n0anoanyone here to talk about the scheduler?15:00
bauzasn0ano: o/15:00
tianst哦/15:00
tiansto/15:01
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toan-trano/15:01
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mspreitzhere15:01
jgallardhi15:01
n0anotianst, I like your first response (if I only knew what it meant :-)15:01
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tianst:)15:01
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n0anolet's get started, I'll try and make it short today15:02
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bauzas:)15:02
n0ano#topic forklift status15:02
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bauzasright :)15:02
n0anobauzas, anything good to report?15:02
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bauzaswell, some updates :)15:02
bauzasafter a looong discussion with johnthetubaguy, decision has been made to simplify the propoal15:03
bauzasso, we remove use of object for it15:03
bauzasand scheduler doesn't have to manage its own view of services15:03
bauzasso, the update is just coming in, and the DB got updated15:03
bauzashttps://review.openstack.org/8277815:04
bauzasit's up to review, no work left15:04
n0anobauzas, that will still lead to clean, easily separatable interfaces, right?15:04
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bauzaswell that's my point on a dependent patch15:04
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bauzasatm, this code is a library run by the compute host15:04
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bauzasso that only provides a way to "isolate" db accesses15:05
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bauzasbut speaking of that, computes are still directly updating db15:05
bauzasfor scheduler compute_nodes table15:05
n0anocomputes updating the DB is not a problem, it's the scheduler access we need to isolate15:06
bauzasn0ano: let me rephrase15:06
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bauzascomputes are updating still updating a DB table15:06
bauzasrelated to the scheduler15:06
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bauzasthe proposal for letting Scheduler the only access to compute_nodes is here : https://review.openstack.org/9723215:07
mspreitzbauzas: which table are you complaining about?15:07
bauzasmspreitz: compute_nodes15:08
n0anoah, that to me is unrelated to splitting the scheduler out into the gantt tree, that's my main focus15:08
bauzasmspreitz: which is the mother of all the scheduling decisions15:08
marunhttp://omrasdfsdfshttp://omreunionproject.org/http://omreunionproject.org/eunionproject.org/15:08
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bauzasn0ano: that's related to it :)15:08
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bauzasif we split out the scheduler, we will need to provide a client library for compute nodes15:09
toan-tranbauzas: +115:09
n0anothe client library either sends an api to the schduler or updates the DB, in either case it's unrelated to gantt code15:09
bauzasif we leave the situation as it is, Nova conductor is still updating DB's compute_nodes15:10
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mspreitzso the debate here is really about where the split is15:10
bauzasthat's unrelated to gantt code, not data ;)15:10
toan-trann0ano: it's related in the sense that we have to use some call from *some service* to scheduler15:10
toan-tranmaybe nova-api15:11
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n0anoI think an API is fine but I just don't see it as a necessary precursor to splitting the scheduler code into gantt15:11
bauzasmmm15:12
bauzasI agree with the thing we draw a line15:13
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bauzaswith compute not directly talking to conductor, but scheduler rather15:13
bauzasbut that scheduler.client portion of code will be run by Nova15:13
bauzaswhile it is part of a Gantt code15:14
n0anoso, to be clear, we need the 82778 change, do we also think that 97232 is required before we try and split the code out?15:15
toan-tranbauzas: I'm confused, are you talking about the database access? or schuduling request?15:15
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bauzastoan-tran: I'm talking about nova computes running a Gantt code to update DB15:17
bauzasn0ano: well, we can try with 82778 only15:17
n0anobauzas, that would be my hope15:17
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bauzasn0ano: but the problem is that Nova will need to import Gantt as a whole15:17
toan-tranbauzas: that's not https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82778/ is about15:18
n0anobauzas, that would kind of defeat the purpose, why would nova need all of gantt?15:18
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toan-tranbauzas: ok so it's https://review.openstack.org/#/c/97232/15:19
bauzastoan-tran: right15:19
bauzasn0ano: I mean the scheduler client code has to be left in Nova15:19
bauzasn0ano: and not be part of the fork15:19
bauzasn0ano: that's a client library15:20
n0anothe client library, yes we can do that as a second effort, as long as we split the scheduler proper out that the main goal15:20
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n0anowe do need the client library but we can do that later15:20
bauzasn0ano: sorry, it seems we are not on the same page15:21
bauzas:)15:21
bauzasI'm trying to reformulate15:21
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bauzasso, my concern is that15:21
bauzasif we say that all scheduler.* namespace becomes gantt15:21
bauzasthat's an external project15:21
bauzasyou ok?15:22
n0anoI believe so, yes15:22
bauzasok15:22
bauzasso, if Nova still has to call Scheduler for either select_destinations() or update_resource_stats(), it will need to import a certain portion of code15:23
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bauzasby importing, I mean Python importing15:23
bauzasfrom ... import client15:23
bauzasso we can't impose nova to declare gantt as a dependency15:24
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bauzasso, I'm just saying that nova.scheduler.client has to be left where it is15:24
bauzasyou ok ?15:25
toan-tranbauzas: *where*?15:25
n0anowe have to think about that, importing from a different project causes problems with testing15:25
bauzasn0ano: right, that's why nova.scheduler.client will still be nova.scheduler.client15:25
bauzasand not become gantt.client15:25
toan-tranbauzas: if you're talking about cross-project call, then it's better in common or oslo15:26
bauzastoan-tran: trust me, that's not that common :)15:26
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bauzasanyway15:26
bauzasI'm just saying that :15:26
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bauzasA/ the scheduler.client code will remain in Nova15:26
bauzasB/ all scheduler.* except scheduler.client will become Gantt15:27
bauzasso the dependency is far less strong15:27
n0anowell, the ultimate goal is to have a `python-ganttclient', like other projects, and isolate the client access that way15:27
toan-tranbauzas: ok, I think I understand what you're saying15:27
bauzasn0ano: agreed, that will be future plan15:27
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toan-tranbasically you want to create an *interface* that scheduler listent to update db15:27
bauzasn0ano: at the moment, we only have that nova.scheduler.client proposed in 82778 to be the last standing man15:28
toan-tranand create something inside nova-compute to use that interface15:28
toan-tranbut instead of using an API, you use python call15:28
toan-tranis that right?15:28
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bauzastoan-tran: I'm just thinking of a way to have a clean interface now, before having a python client :)15:29
bauzasso, if we say nova.scheduler.client is the last standing man in Nova15:29
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toan-tranbauzas: I'm agreed that we would have to make some channel from nova to gantt to update DB15:29
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toan-tranI'm just worried that the channel is low-level function call15:30
bauzasthat means that we need to have compatibility in between nova.scheduler.client code and Scheduler15:30
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toan-tranit should be temporary15:30
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bauzastoan-tran: if we want a python-ganttclient we need a gantt-api :)15:30
n0anobauzas, +115:31
toan-tranbauzas: +115:31
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n0anothe question is do we need python-ganttclient before we can make the split15:31
bauzasn0ano: nope15:31
bauzasn0ano: RPC API is enough15:31
n0anothen I'm good, stepwise development works for me15:32
bauzasn0ano: hence https://review.openstack.org/#/c/97232/15:32
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n0anoactually, that leads to the action for all15:32
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n0ano#all to review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82778 and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/97232/15:33
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bauzasn0ano: thanks15:33
n0anoI think we should move on15:33
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bauzasn0ano: as I'm just trying to explain, 97232 is the only piece of code needed to have a clear interface in between Gantt and Nova15:33
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n0anobauzas, +115:34
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bauzasn0ano: we can move on without that piece of code, but then we will need to manage compatibilty at the DB level15:34
n0ano#topic policy based scheduler15:34
*** openstack changes topic to "policy based scheduler (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:34
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toan-tranbauzas: I suggest you put the roadmap somewhere, to know which patch corresponds to which piece of the roadmap15:35
n0anotoan-tran, I believe this is your topic, I noticed there was some reviews (fairly negative) on your BP15:35
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bauzasn0ano: could you please undo ? there is a WIP patch for isolate-scheduler-db15:35
n0ano#topic code forklift15:35
*** openstack changes topic to "code forklift (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:35
n0anosorry, got ahead of myself15:35
tianstisolate scheduler db, I put a daft patch , just want to make sure something,  one :if i did the right thing? two:need Depends bauzas's patch and split the API update to one patch?15:36
tianstn0ano :015:36
tianst:)15:36
bauzastianst: well, I made some comments15:36
bauzastianst: maybe we could discuss that later on15:36
tianstbauzas : I see thanks15:36
bauzastianst: btw, your topic name is incorrect15:37
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n0anoI haven't had a chance to review it yet, but I will later today15:37
bauzastianst: can't find it thru gerrit https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:bp/isolate-scheduler-db,n,z15:37
tianstn0ano ,thanks15:37
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bauzastianst: you made an excellent job15:37
bauzastianst: I'm just worried about the fact the bp is not validated yet15:38
tianstbauzas: it's a draft, i will update tomorrow15:38
bauzashttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/89893/15:38
bauzastianst: yep, I know15:38
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bauzastianst: would you mind if I propose another patchset ?15:38
n0anobauzas, I'm assuming the BP will get validated and I don't want to just sit and wait for that15:38
bauzasn0ano: yey, but I had to do many back-and-forths with the sched-lib15:39
bauzasn0ano: I don't want to have the same situation for isolate-sched-db15:39
n0anobauzas, hopefully this one is slightly less controversial (I'm an optimist)15:39
bauzasn0ano: I'm also :)15:39
bauzasso, tianst, would you mind if I'm proposing another patchset ?15:40
bauzasso we could co-author it15:40
tianstnop15:40
bauzasthat will be very quick15:40
bauzasok cool15:40
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tianst:)15:41
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n0anoOK, anything else about the forklift?15:41
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n0ano#topic policy based scheduler15:41
*** openstack changes topic to "policy based scheduler (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:41
bauzaswell, we're running out of time :)15:41
bauzasyep15:41
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n0anotoan-tran, anything you want to say today?15:41
toan-trani'll be quick15:42
toan-tranI'm rewritting the proposal15:42
toan-tranlast time I made a mistake presenting usecases one by one15:42
toan-tranit's easy to have patch for one usecase, but if we're keep doing that it's complicated15:42
toan-tranI will re-present it with the whole picture, it's better to see the usefulness of this bp15:43
bauzastoan-tran: the problem is that your proposal is big15:43
toan-tranyes, the bp was proposed several months ago15:43
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bauzastoan-tran: so it should be managed by a single bp15:43
toan-tranand it was the problem15:43
toan-transo I'm trying to break to down into pieces15:44
bauzasshould *not15:44
bauzasright15:44
n0anotoan-tran, yeah, it looks like you have to justify things a bit, breaking it up into smaller pieces might be easier15:44
toan-trann0ano: +115:44
bauzasmaybe the rationale should still reside in a Wikipage15:44
mspreitzI have an observation and a suggestion15:44
bauzasyou can just provide as many blueprints as you need15:44
bauzasrelated to that15:45
toan-tranbauzas: some old text is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gr4Pb1ErXymxN9QXR4G_jVjLqNOg2ij9oA0JrLwMVRA/edit15:45
toan-tranmspreitz: go ahead15:45
mspreitzI have reviewed https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RfP7jRsw1mXMjd7in72ARjK0fTrsQv1bqolOriIQB2Y/edit# and the central idea there is that what you are adding is support for provider policy...15:45
mspreitzWhen we get into policy-driven scheduling, there are two sources for policy : the user and the provider15:46
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mspreitzWhat I see your BP about is enabling the provider to make some fine-grained declarations of provider policy15:46
mspreitzLeave the rest out of it15:46
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mspreitzThat's a way to focus15:46
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mspreitzfull stop15:47
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toan-tranmspreitz: well at first the idea is to have an engine driven by policy15:48
toan-tranregardless of who the policy is provided by15:48
toan-transo we will have provider's polciy, and user's policy15:48
mspreitzIn some sense today's scheduler is driven by policy.  Both you and Yathi are working with user policy being given today15:48
toan-tranbut that's for later, right now I'm focusing on the engine itself15:49
mspreitzI myself and Yathi want richer user policy input, but that's a separate issue15:49
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mspreitzSo here is the factoring I see...15:49
mspreitzOne part is about letting the provider make fine-grained policy statements; those can, as outlined in https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RfP7jRsw1mXMjd7in72ARjK0fTrsQv1bqolOriIQB2Y/edit# , be parameters of today's scheduler15:50
toan-tranmspreitz: +1, the obstacle for me with user's policy is that we don't have an API for user to delare that15:50
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toan-transo I'm limited with provider policy only15:50
mspreitzOther parts are about changing how the scheduler deals with incoming policy15:50
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bauzastoan-tran: I think that once we succeed in getting Gantt out15:50
toan-tranbut that's the thing I see in your proposal15:51
bauzastoan-tran: the first item will be to provide an API15:51
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bauzastoan-tran: I have some experience of Pecan and WSME, I will be able to help15:51
toan-tranbauzas: +115:51
mspreitzYathi and I have been working on the API for user policy, I see you as contributing API for provider policy, let us not mix the two up15:51
toan-tranmspreitz: right15:52
mspreitzthey are different things15:52
bauzastoan-tran: mspreitz: I'm almost sure Nova cores won't want to extend Nova API for these purposes15:52
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toan-tranfor now  I'm focusing on the engine itself, not the policy part15:52
bauzastoan-tran: mspreitz: that needs to land on Gantt15:52
* johnthetubaguy is lurking, in case someone had a question15:52
toan-tranbauzas: +115:52
mspreitzYes, I thought everyone agreed that Gantt comes first15:52
n0anotoan-tran, note, focusing on the eingine might be your problem, it's hard to justify the engine without a user of it15:53
mspreitzAs for extending API to accept *more* user policy, yes that is not settled yet15:53
bauzasmspreitz: by saying that, you implicitely accept the dependency on a Gantt API15:53
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toan-trann0ano: that's why I'm working on its presentation :)15:53
toan-tranmspreitz: I guess the API part should be talked once we have some discussion of gantt API15:54
bauzasjohnthetubaguy: we had some discussion abotu https://review.openstack.org/9723215:54
bauzasjohnthetubaguy: let's discuss it in #openstack-nova once that meeting ends up15:54
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mspreitzbauzas: I think Nova's client-facing API for accepting user policy does not necessarily have to expose Gantt; consider the proposals that Yathi and I and others have made; the implementation, OTOH, will involve Gantt15:54
johnthetubaguybauzas: ack15:54
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toan-tranFYI, I'm looking ath the work in Congress15:55
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toan-tranthey're proposing some really interesting approach on policy part15:55
bauzasmspreitz: what if Nova refuses to extend Nova API for adding user policies ?15:55
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toan-tranif it becomes official, we can benefit from congress API & policy language15:56
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bauzastoan-tran: I agree with you, but coming from a Stackforge project, that's tough now15:56
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bauzastoan-tran: we can't bet on a project to become integrated15:56
mspreitzRefusing an API for accepting more user policy input = refusing to cope with more user policy.  If that's the community's decision, I'll probably be taking my marbles elsewhere.15:56
toan-tranmspreitz: now now don't be on defensive :)15:57
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toan-tranI think that's the need (that's why I do it :) )15:57
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n0anoOK, we're running out of time and I do have one quick open15:57
toan-tranI just see some work before it can be merged15:58
bauzastoan-tran: so I would prefer to have an API accepting policies in Gantt and a possible backend that would be Congress15:58
n0ano#topic opens15:58
*** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:58
mspreitzI'm just saying that if the community decides to not work on a topic, then I will not try to work with this community on that topic15:58
toan-tranbauzas: +115:58
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bauzasmspreitz: well, I'm not saying the community will push back15:58
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mspreitzbauzas: you do not have to say it, it has already been said and done.  But not settled.15:59
n0anomy BP https://review.openstack.org/#/c/97903/ for changing the compute node updates to the DB has been approved, expect to see code to implement it real soon now15:59
mspreitzOn to opens15:59
bauzasmspreitz: but maybe it could be said that Nova is not the right place for it15:59
bauzasn0ano: cool15:59
n0anoreviews of the code, as always, are appreciated15:59
bauzas:)15:59
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n0anothat's about all the time we have, barring any last minute opens16:00
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bauzasnope16:00
n0anoOK, tnx everyone, we'll talk again next week.16:00
bauzasthanks for your work16:00
n0ano#endmeeting16:00
*** openstack changes topic to "launchpad openid is down. login to openstack services will fail until launchpad openid is happy again"16:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 17 16:00:35 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-06-17-15.00.html16:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-06-17-15.00.txt16:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-06-17-15.00.log.html16:00
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primeministerp#startmeeting hyper-v16:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 17 16:02:49 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is primeministerp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v'16:02
ociuhandu_hi all16:03
primeministerphi all16:03
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primeministerpluis_fdez: hi luis16:03
luis_fdezhi prad_16:04
luis_fdezuy16:04
luis_fdezhi primeministerp16:04
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primeministerpso wanted to have a quick update16:04
primeministerpluis_fdez: i'm glad you're here16:04
primeministerp#topic puppet refactoring effort16:04
*** openstack changes topic to "puppet refactoring effort (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:04
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luis_fdezno big updates from my side unfortunately...16:05
luis_fdezIt's been a couple of busy weeks here16:05
luis_fdezsince the summit16:05
primeministerpso we're currently undergoing a effort to refactor the puppet16:05
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primeministerpcode we have for windows16:06
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luis_fdezdid you have time to take a look to the refactoring of nova?16:06
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primeministerpso i haven't looked at it yet16:07
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luis_fdezok, no problem... I want to take another look to the updates in stackforge and plan next steps...16:08
luis_fdezfor unit testing... bits that could be push to the main modules...16:08
primeministerphowever we have other looking at it.16:08
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luis_fdezok, good :)16:09
primeministerpsorry16:10
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primeministerpothers calling at the same time16:11
primeministerpas this meeting16:11
luis_fdeznp :)16:11
primeministerpok16:11
primeministerpback16:11
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primeministerpso no on the nova stuff, we're doing more lower level right now16:12
primeministerplooking at the windows common parts16:12
luis_fdezok16:12
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primeministerpadding documentation and trying to establish some standard testing across modules16:12
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primeministerpi however can take a peek at the nova bits if there is something specific that awaits16:12
primeministerpI know i've neglected them as of late16:13
primeministerp:(16:13
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primeministerpluis_fdez: do you have specific pull requests waiting?16:13
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primeministerpluis_fdez: anyway ping me after if there stuff you want to me to prioritze16:13
luis_fdezno, I think eveeryting is pulled in16:14
primeministerpok16:14
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primeministerpso I'm going to move on for a sec16:14
primeministerp#openvswitch16:14
luis_fdezok16:14
primeministerp#topic openvswitch16:14
*** openstack changes topic to "openvswitch (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:14
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primeministerpso we're also starting our efforts to integrate openvswitch into the ci16:14
primeministerpas you may know we've got a kernel driver and userspace components now16:15
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primeministerpfor hyper-v16:15
primeministerp#link https://github.com/cloudbase/openvswitch-hyperv-kernel16:15
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luis_fdezit's a great progress to have it on hyperv16:15
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primeministerp#link https://github.com/cloudbase/openvswitch-hyperv16:16
primeministerpluis_fdez: have you started testing yet?16:16
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luis_fdeznop, there is one technical student that is working on Neutron & friends16:16
primeministerpahh16:17
primeministerpok16:17
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luis_fdezhave you been testing it successfully??16:17
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primeministerpwe're just begining the testing efforts here as well so it's going to be a bit befor it's all integrated16:17
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primeministerpluis_fdez: we're just planning now16:17
luis_fdezok16:17
primeministerpluis_fdez: on top of building a new infra16:18
primeministerpluis_fdez: however we'll be building the new infra using it16:18
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primeministerpluis_fdez: and will be working to integrate it into our neutron tests16:19
luis_fdezsounds good :)16:19
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primeministerp#topic cinder testing16:21
*** openstack changes topic to "cinder testing (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:21
primeministerpso we're also starting to work on the cinder test cases16:21
primeministerpand are currently building the automation to support it16:21
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primeministerpfirst test case we'll be deploying is the iscsi, with the smb3 to follow with the addition of the code16:22
luis_fdezgood, we need to improve a bit that part (I already saw a few new patches being merged upstream related with hyperv and iscsi)16:23
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primeministerpwe've currently pinned down some details of the configuration for the workload and are aligning our automation efforts and refactoring efforts to support this16:23
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primeministerpwe'll have something running in the current the CI infa in cmb by Juno16:24
primeministerpso I really don't have much more to cover today16:24
primeministerpluis_fdez: anything to add?16:25
luis_fdezyeps16:25
luis_fdezjust one thing16:25
primeministerpyep16:25
primeministerpluis_fdez: go ahead16:25
luis_fdezI would like also to revisit in the coming weeks the creation of a SCOM package for OpenSTack16:25
luis_fdezon HyperV16:25
primeministerpluis_fdez: can you do me a favor16:25
luis_fdezyes16:25
primeministerpluis_fdez: let's get an email thread going16:25
primeministerpi'll be travelling for a couple weeks starting next week16:26
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primeministerpso if you can get it by weeks end16:26
primeministerpexplaining what you're looking for16:26
luis_fdezok16:26
primeministerpi'll start a thread on it internally here16:26
primeministerpand get some discussions started16:26
primeministerpto see if there's something that can be done16:26
primeministerpluis_fdez: does that work?16:27
luis_fdezperfect, we would be please to contribute in testing/coding but if it's driven by you... the final design will be better...16:27
luis_fdezyeps, perfect primeministerp16:27
primeministerpnp16:27
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luis_fdezsaid that, that's all from my side16:27
primeministerpociuhandu_: do you have anything to add?16:27
ociuhandu_primeministerp: not really16:28
primeministerpok then guys16:28
primeministerpi'm going to close the meeting16:28
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primeministerp#endmeeting16:28
ociuhandu_focusing on the CI work for now ;)16:28
*** openstack changes topic to "launchpad openid is down. login to openstack services will fail until launchpad openid is happy again"16:28
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 17 16:28:36 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:28
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-06-17-16.02.html16:28
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-06-17-16.02.txt16:28
ociuhandu_bye all16:28
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-06-17-16.02.log.html16:28
luis_fdezbye! have a nice week16:28
ociuhandu_luis_fdez: u too :)16:29
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boris-42#startmeeting Rally17:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 17 17:00:35 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:00
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openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'rally'17:00
boris-42msdubov hughsaunders marcoemorais1 ping17:00
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hughsaundersboris-42: hey17:01
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andreykurilinhi all17:01
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k4n0Hi Rally o/17:01
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boris-42so let' just wait a sec17:02
marcoemorais1hey17:02
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boris-42okay let's just start17:04
boris-42#topic hackings17:04
*** openstack changes topic to "hackings (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:04
boris-42Olga made a quite large patch17:04
boris-42https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100599/17:04
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boris-42I think we should merge it ASAP17:05
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boris-42Cause it is blocking next patch17:05
boris-42https://review.openstack.org/#/c/96833/17:05
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boris-42that contains a lot of updates in different projects17:05
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boris-42Thoughts ?17:06
k4n0first patch or second?17:06
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boris-42k4n0 first & second we need both17:06
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boris-42without first we are not able to merge second17:06
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boris-42k4n0 second patch syncs rally requirements with requirements of rest openstack17:07
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k4n0then we should quickly review first patch17:07
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boris-42k4n0 yep17:08
boris-42hughsaunders marcoemorais1 ^17:08
boris-42guys you are core you should have your opinion on this as well lol17:08
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marcoemorais1boris-42: yes it is a big patch, need to look through it17:09
hughsaundersDoes look like a sizeable patch, will have to have  a read17:09
hughsaundersmarcoemorais1: snap17:09
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boris-42hughsaunders msdubov  okay good17:10
boris-42#topic Keystone V3 support17:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Keystone V3 support (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:10
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boris-42Ok we find the guy  that will help us with this stuff17:10
boris-42it's quite tricky17:11
k4n0o/17:11
k4n0can i help?17:11
boris-42https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100579/17:11
boris-42^ k4n0  you can help if you review this17:11
k4n0ok17:11
boris-42So the idea is to create wrapper17:11
boris-42on top of keystone client17:12
boris-42so we will unify work with keystone for rest of rally17:12
boris-42and it will detect automatically what version we are using and use coressponding API17:12
boris-42k4n0 hughsaunders marcoemorais ^ thoguths ?17:12
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marcoemoraisboris-42: interesting seems potentially useful even outside of rally17:13
k4n0Is this a problem of deciding which keystone api to use? (https://github.com/openstack/heat/blob/master/heat/common/heat_keystoneclient.py)17:13
boris-42k4n0 nope17:14
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boris-42k4n0 it's problem that in keystone v3 we have projects and in keystone v2 we have tenants17:14
boris-42k4n0 they are similar but with different names...17:14
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boris-42and different api17:15
k4n0ok, and what do we need to use?17:15
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hughsaundersk4n0: probably need compatibility with both for now17:15
k4n0I see, so we need to lazy load the keystone client based on context17:16
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boris-42k4n0 if we specified in rally to use v317:16
boris-42k4n0 rally should still work+)17:16
boris-42k4n0 at this point it doesn't work17:17
k4n0I think heat does something similar (https://github.com/openstack/heat/blob/master/heat/common/heat_keystoneclient.py#L541)17:17
k4n0You can specify default keystone backend.17:17
boris-42k4n0 it's mess17:17
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boris-42k4n0 and not related to our task17:17
k4n0ok17:17
boris-42k4n0 I don't need delete_stack_domain_project17:17
boris-42-)17:17
k4n0I know :)17:17
boris-42k4n0 so we will just unify basic operations that we are using17:18
boris-42k4n0 that's all17:18
k4n0ok17:18
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boris-42#topic Tempest Improvements17:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Tempest Improvements (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:18
boris-42k4n0 could you share with your work and explain to others?17:18
k4n0Yes17:19
k4n0https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10048117:19
k4n0I am removing dependency on subunit2junitxml17:19
k4n0And parsing the raw subunit stream given by "testr" to json17:19
k4n0basically subunit2json17:19
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k4n0questions?17:20
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k4n0https://blueprints.launchpad.net/rally/+spec/tempest-subunit-to-json17:21
boris-42k4n0 agree actually with Andreay17:21
boris-42k4n0 about location of subunit2json module=)17:21
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k4n0you want to invoke subunit2json from tool/subunit2json ?17:22
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boris-42k4n0 nope17:22
boris-42I left comment17:22
boris-42k4n0 put it deep inside tempest directory17:22
boris-42k4n0 only tempest is using it and will use it17:22
k4n0ok, so send subunit2json as patch to tempest? or copy it to tempest during installation from rally17:23
k4n0?17:23
andreykurilinno17:23
boris-42k4n0 send module17:23
boris-42k4n0 move file in patch*17:23
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k4n0I dont understand17:23
boris-42k4n0 file is in rally/subunit2json.py17:24
k4n0ok got it17:24
boris-42make it in rally/verification/veirifiers/tempst/subunit2json.py17:24
boris-42only tempest is (and will use it)17:24
andreykurilin+117:24
boris-42so it shouldn't be on top of everything17:24
boris-42if we put everything in root17:24
boris-42it will be mess17:24
boris-42=)17:24
k4n0ack17:25
k4n0Ill make this and other change and submit new patch17:25
boris-42k4n0 good17:25
andreykurilinthis module can be moved to subunit repo as one of subunit-filter :)17:25
boris-42andreykurilin btw yes17:26
boris-42andreykurilin but unit it is merged in it we will keep it in rally17:26
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boris-42lifeless ^ we made subunit2json.py17:27
andreykurilinof course17:27
boris-42lifeless are you interesting in getting it in subunit?17:27
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boris-42#topic ready to merge patch =)17:29
*** openstack changes topic to "ready to merge patch =) (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:29
andreykurilinboris-42, imo,  we need to send a letter to openstack-dev and discuss this filter17:29
boris-42https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92873/1217:29
boris-42andreykurilin k4n0 somebody of you guys can make this17:30
k4n0andreykurilin: Ill send a mail to mailing list openstack-dev17:30
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boris-42hughsaunders msdubov marcoemorais guys could you take a look at patch above ^17:30
* hughsaunders looks17:30
k4n0#action send mail regarding subunit2json to openstack-dev17:30
andreykurilink4n0, ok17:31
boris-42 #action send mail regarding subunit2json to openstack-dev17:31
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boris-42#topic OpenStack cross service project profiler17:32
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack cross service project profiler (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:32
boris-42Okay guys I finally finished work on osprofiler17:32
k4n0great :)17:32
boris-42https://github.com/stackforge/osprofiler17:32
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boris-42^ There are just read me and small py33 fix left17:32
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boris-42and I'll cut release17:32
boris-42After that I'll start integrating it in upstream17:33
boris-42to integrate it in upstream we will need to put a couple of small patches17:33
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boris-42https://github.com/boris-42/nova/commit/9ebe86bf5b4cc7150251396cfb302dd05e89085d this is sample of nova integration17:33
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boris-42and this is required in ceilometer https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100239/17:34
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boris-42so as all patches are ready there is a bit bureaucracy17:34
boris-42about blue prints and specs and so on17:34
k4n0waiting for ceilometer patch to merge?17:34
boris-42I need to make ceilometer-spec17:35
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boris-42to get approved this stuff17:35
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k4n0ok, so we need spec + patch for other projects also17:36
boris-42k4n0 yep17:36
boris-42k4n0 I will make one template17:36
boris-42k4n0 and copy paste it lol17:36
boris-42=)17:36
k4n0ok17:36
boris-42k4n0 but it will take some time17:36
k4n0lol17:36
boris-42and then there will be patch in rally17:36
boris-42that integrates all this stuff so it will work out of box17:37
boris-42=)17:37
k4n0looking forward17:37
boris-42and we will get traces for every iteration17:37
boris-42in such format http://pavlovic.me/rally/profiler/17:37
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boris-42#topic open discussion17:38
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:38
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boris-42somebody would like to discuss anything ?17:38
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hughsaundersboris-42: good work on profiler17:38
k4n0Rally release schedule (rpm, deb, pip)17:38
hughsaundersk4n0: need versions before releases17:39
k4n0https://blueprints.launchpad.net/rally/+spec/rally-distribution-packages17:39
k4n0Yes17:39
k4n0We need to discuss how we will version17:39
boris-42yep this is good topic for discussion k4n017:40
boris-42when we are going to start versioning crap?17:40
boris-42marcoemorais hughsaunders msdubov ^17:40
boris-42I think there should be next topics17:41
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hughsaundersboris-42: as you've said previously its a trade off against velocity. We should start versioning when we intend to support the current version for a while, so UI, API, DB etc17:42
boris-42are we going to support upgrades?17:42
boris-42hughsaunders but we can just avoid supporting of upgrades17:42
boris-42till moment X17:42
boris-42=)17:42
boris-42e.g. 0.*.* is without supporting upgrades17:42
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boris-421.*.* will be with support upgrades17:43
hughsaundersI guess so.. we could go with the openstack cadence, release every 6 months, then that gives a time frame to work in17:43
boris-42hughsaunders nope17:43
boris-42hughsaunders I think it will be better to make short releases 1.5-2weeks17:43
boris-42without supporting upgrades17:44
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k4n0how about going with tempest release cycle? the branchless one17:44
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boris-42until we will have stable API/UI/DB17:44
boris-42k4n0 there is no more branches17:44
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boris-42k4n0 plus why we need to be aligned with them at all?17:44
boris-42k4n0 imho versions should be done depending on changes in Rally17:45
k4n0yes, bad idea, :)17:45
k4n0just a thought17:45
boris-42if we have a lot of changes for 1 week we can make version17:45
boris-42if there is no changes we can wait 2 or even more weeks17:45
k4n0how do we define "lot of changes" ?17:46
boris-42i'll define=)17:46
k4n0ok :)17:46
k4n0works for me17:46
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boris-42depending on temperature on Mars17:46
boris-42=)17:46
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boris-42so17:46
boris-42about versioning17:46
k4n0I am trying to get a rpm built internally in my office17:46
boris-42x.x.* should be backward comp. fully17:47
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boris-42e.g. the same DB can be used with x.x.N and x.xN+K17:47
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hughsaundersboris-42: so push a tag to the repo every few weeks?17:47
boris-42hughsaunders yep17:47
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boris-42x.N.* and x.N+1.* are not backward compability17:47
boris-42and there is no upgrade for such change17:48
boris-42cause I don't want to lose time at this point for upgrades17:48
boris-42hughsaunders so actually we will make releases like python clients17:48
boris-42hughsaunders they are doing it on demand17:48
boris-42k4n0 ^17:48
hughsaundersok17:49
k4n0+117:49
boris-42when we will be enough stable17:49
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boris-42when we move to 1.*.*17:49
boris-42we will start supporting upgrades17:49
boris-42k4n0 hughsaunders  so current versioning will be some kind of baby step to the full versioning17:50
k4n0got it17:50
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hughsaundersboris-42: seems like a good idea, so we get the process going for releasing, but without the stability requirements as its 0.0.x17:51
boris-42k4n0 could you put this in blueprint?17:51
boris-42hughsaunders yep17:51
k4n0boris-42: yes, on it17:51
boris-42hughsaunders and when we get stability we will have all process about versioning and other stuff ready17:51
boris-42hughsaunders and with good experience17:52
boris-42=)17:52
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hughsaundersSounds good17:52
boris-42Other topics to dicuss?17:52
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k4n0nothing from my side17:52
boris-42okay let's just finish meeting=)17:53
boris-42Glad to see you guys17:53
k4n0ok, cya. thanks all17:54
boris-42#endmeeting17:54
*** openstack changes topic to "launchpad openid is down. login to openstack services will fail until launchpad openid is happy again"17:54
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 17 17:54:17 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:54
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openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-06-17-17.00.html17:54
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-06-17-17.00.txt17:54
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-06-17-17.00.log.html17:54
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dolphmayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, fmarco76, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting17:58
ayoungI'm here17:58
gyee\o17:58
lbragstaddolphm: o/17:58
kwss_hello17:58
henrynashthe man is hot to trot….17:59
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bknudsonhi17:59
morganfainberg(>'-')> <('-'<) ^(' - ')^ <('-'<) (>'-')>17:59
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marekd|away\o/17:59
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dolphm#startmeeting keystone18:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 17 18:00:16 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:00
dolphm#topic Juno hackathon18:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Juno hackathon (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:00
morganfainbergyay hackathon!18:00
stevemarahoy18:00
dolphmso just one quick update that should hopefully be inconsequential for the most part...18:00
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dolphmwe've completely moved the event to the *other* geekdom building @ 110 E Houston St, San Antonio, TX 7820518:01
dstanekdolphm: is that the old or new one?18:01
dolphmwhich is a tiny bit closer to the Valencia18:01
bknudsonwhat happened?18:01
dolphmdstanek: this is Geekdom's new space18:01
lbragstad#link https://www.google.com/maps/place/110+E+Houston+St/@29.4262771,-98.4935065,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x865c5f52c3e335c1:0xaa931eb0dee8ded418:01
boris-42morganfainberg hackathon hmm interseting18:01
dolphmbknudson: the event space was too big for us, i suppose?18:01
stevemarty lbragstad18:01
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stevemardolphm, is the valencia still a good hotel spot?18:02
ayoungI was just going to follow the crowd there from the Hotel anyway18:02
ayoungstevemar, this is "closer"18:02
dolphmstevemar: yes, see the map on:18:02
dolphm#link http://dolphm.com/openstack-keystone-hackathon-for-juno/18:02
dstanekdolphm: ah, nice. yes, closer.18:02
* morganfainberg needs to book flight to SAT.18:02
stevemarneato18:02
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* stevemar also needs to book a flight to SAT18:03
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dstanekis the barbican one at this location too?18:03
dolphmdstanek: yeah, we'll be colocating with barbican on wednesday18:03
morganfainbergcool18:03
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morganfainbergi'll be there for wed -> fri. (wont make it for barbican mon/tues)18:03
dstanekcool, i'm planning on attending barbican too - i'll be in SAT for the whole week18:04
dolphmdstanek: oh cool18:04
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dolphm#topic Spec Approval Requirements18:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Spec Approval Requirements (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:04
dolphmmorganfainberg: i can't remember if you put this on the agenda for this week, or if i left it on from last week?18:05
morganfainbergi changed it18:05
morganfainbergactually18:05
morganfainbergright before the meeting >.>18:05
morganfainbergbut it should be spec approval deadlines for juno18:05
bknudsonThere's a Ripley's in san antonio18:05
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morganfainbergdo we want a deadline for spec approvals18:05
morganfainbergwhere if it isn't in - we aren't accepting it. i don't mean the J2 code thing18:06
lbragstadNova is doing a deadline of the first milestone I believe... They also have a ton of specs to review18:06
morganfainbergor is J2 the deadline18:06
dolphmmorganfainberg: like, you need to land a spec in j1 to land an implementation in j2 or j3?18:06
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bknudsonseems like if it can get in in time then that's the deadline18:06
morganfainbergdolphm, basically18:06
morganfainbergdolphm, do we want a hard cut off of "look the spec isn't going through this cycle"18:06
dolphmmorganfainberg: obviously we can't meet that for j2, but i'd love to say that if you don't land a spec by the end of j2, you're missing juno completely18:07
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ayoungdolphm, I would say that the dead line for spec approval would vary if it is an API change or not18:07
morganfainbergdolphm, ++ works for me18:07
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ayoungfor API change, code still needs to be in J218:07
ayoungspec approval needs to lead that, but probably not by much18:07
ayoungbut why not do the same for J3?18:08
dolphmayoung: this would mean that API specs need to be proposed and accepted by milestone 1, to be implemented in milestone 218:08
ayoungdolphm, not what I'm saying18:08
morganfainbergthis was more of a "should we have a spec deadline" and if so what is it, question18:08
ayoungdolphm, I'm saying :  spec needs to be approved before the code, but not by much18:08
ayoungI say "no"18:08
ayoungwe have code deadlines only18:08
morganfainbergthis is to direct how we prioritise reviewing specs as well18:09
ayoungand specs need to be progressing to keep the code moving18:09
morganfainbergif it's only code deadlines we need to keep eyes on specs 100% of the time.18:09
ayoungwe can try to lead things more in K, L and M....18:09
morganfainbergelse, we can say specs (not modifications, new specs) are only from X to Y18:09
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ayounghow about a cutoff for submitting new specs?18:09
dolphmayoung: right, we're talking more about j3 and beyond18:09
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stevemarwe should get some leeway this release, i doubt anyone was thinking the specs would take this long...18:10
dolphmwe're already into j2, and we have mature specs that can realistically land in j2. but moving forward, the hard cutoff for submitting new specs can simply be a milestone ahead18:10
morganfainbergdolphm, i like it18:11
stevemarthats fair18:11
dolphmso, the earliest this type of policy could take effect is for j3: to land a change in j3 (and therefore juno), the spec should land before the J2 deadline (whatever the date is in late july)18:11
ayoungstevemar, I knew specs would take this long18:12
ayounglook at the team, and how detail oriented we've been on past things18:12
ayoungdid you rally think specs would be any different?18:12
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ayoungdolphm, ++18:12
stevemarayoung, i was hoping..18:12
stevemari was never really 100% *for* specs to begin with18:13
stevemarbut we got what we got :)18:13
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dolphmstevemar: some specs will move fast. highly impactful ones will move slowly (unfortunately, most of the currently proposed ones are big :)18:13
stevemardolphm, i suppose18:13
ayoungstevemar, I'm kindof with you on that.  But I think that the review process is valuable, just we are really, really paranoid18:13
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stevemardid we decide on a way to approve them yet? last week was voting in a meeting, but some went through +2/+A process18:14
bknudsonthose of us who have to deal with security vulnerabilities are paranoid for a reason18:14
morganfainbergstevemar, vote is the general thumbs up/thumbs down.18:14
ayoungstevemar, I pushed for the vote just to get people looking at them and saying "I'm comfortable with this"18:14
morganfainbergstevemar, after that it's 2x+2/+A (as per last meeting)18:14
ayoungbknudson, I know.  I'm backporting a patch to Grizzly as we speak18:14
stevemarmorgabra, cool!18:14
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dolphmmorganfainberg: you need to change your nick now18:15
morganfainbergdolphm, damn it18:15
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bknudsonayoung: me too... we need to get the community to support older releases.18:15
bknudsonit's probably the same one18:15
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ayoungbknudson, yep...lets compare notes after the meeting18:15
stevemarhehe, whoops! morganfainberg not morgabra18:15
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morganfainbergbknudson, there was talk about increasing length of time on support for icehouse iirc18:15
morganfainbergbknudson, don't know if we will resurrect grizzly18:15
morganfainbergthough18:16
morganfainbergor icehouse and havana18:16
bknudsonno, we won't resurrect grizzly18:16
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bknudsonmaybe on github18:16
dolphm#action specs must be approved ahead of the milestone in which they are to be targeted/merged. for example, a j3 feature must have an approved spec land no later than the deadline for j2.18:17
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bknudsondoes approved here mean merged?18:17
bknudsonor voted on in the meeting?18:17
dolphmbknudson: merged is what i meant18:17
morganfainbergbknudson, merged.18:17
morganfainbergjuno has some extra leeway because we started late though.18:18
dolphmjuno-218:18
morganfainbergdolphm, ++ juno218:18
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dolphmwe'll go case-by-case for juno-2 features, but i don't think there will be any surprises18:18
dolphm#topic Criteria for next release of client18:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Criteria for next release of client (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:18
dolphmayoung: o/18:18
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ayoungdolphm, thanks18:18
bknudsonlet's try not to break everyone with the next release of the client18:19
dolphmbknudson: s/next/any/18:19
ayoungOK,  so there are a bunch of changes that need to land for features in Juno.  Want to make sure we are aligned in purpose18:19
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ayoungSplit of middleware repo?18:19
ayoungmorganfainberg, you've been working on that18:19
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ayoungwhat do we think is the timeline?18:20
dolphmthere's a proposed spec for that hasn't merged :)18:20
dolphmfor that which*18:20
morganfainbergayoung, well, it's not hard to split it.18:20
ayoungmorganfainberg, what are the practical18:20
ayoungramiofications of splitting it?18:20
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morganfainbergayoung, it's the testing and release process that is going to be hard18:20
morganfainbergfor the first round18:20
morganfainberglots of code shuffling18:21
morganfainbergi would say this is not a next release thing18:21
morganfainbergthis is a "we will get it done in the Juno cycle" thing.18:21
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ayoungmorganfainberg, do we want in place for Juno?18:21
ayoungand, if so, what do we try to sync it around?18:21
bknudson6663e13 Make get_oauth_params conditional for specific oauthlib versions18:21
bknudsonoh, that was a test issue18:21
ayoungbknudson, isn't that in already?18:21
morganfainbergclient and middleware will release the same way. separate from the named releases18:21
ayoungI'm more concerned about pending reviews18:22
morganfainbergayoung, i'd rather work on this in J3.18:22
ayoungmorganfainberg, ++18:22
bknudsonI was checking if there was a reason for a release now. I don't think there is.18:22
gyeeyeah, there are a bunch of client reviews that have impact on integration18:22
ayoungOK  so...let me skip to audit for a second then18:22
morganfainbergayoung, make sure we don't block feature work.18:22
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ayoungaudit is gordon chung's work18:22
ayoungand we were talking about putting it in to the client18:22
morganfainbergayoung, and that (iirc) is going in oslo?18:22
bknudsonmiddleware?18:22
ayoungdoes it make sense to wait until after the split to get that in, as it is middleware?18:23
bknudsonseems like it would be a mistake to put it in keystoneclient and then move it to middleware18:23
ayoungmorganfainberg, we had discussed putting the audit middleware in keystoneclient, with an eye to a longer term integration between policy and audit18:23
morganfainbergayoung, i can do the split earlier if we need to split first18:23
ayoungbknudson, ++ which is why I was thinking of pushing for the split sooner18:24
ayoungalso to flush out the issues with the split18:24
morganfainbergit's basically just putting a moratorium on new changes to the middleware/affecting the middleware until the split is complete18:24
morganfainbergand we have a 1st release of the new pypi package18:24
morganfainberg and global reqs update18:24
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bknudsonI don't know if I can stop myself from fiddling with auth_token middleware,18:24
ayoungmorganfainberg, maybe we get it that far:18:24
gyeeis there a compelling reason to do the split earlier? seem like our priority should be on keystoneclient integration18:25
ayoungbknudson, we have a lot of changes queued up for that.  It might be easier to postpone moving AT to the middleware repo until we have it completely refactored18:25
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ayounggyee, ++18:25
dolphmwho's creating the new repo? morganfainberg?18:25
bknudsonalthough it's no problem for me to move a review from python-keystoneclient to a different repo18:25
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morganfainbergdolphm, yes.18:25
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dolphmmorganfainberg: can you fork keystoneclient to do so?18:26
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ayoungbknudson, so lets hold off on moving auth token, but we have other middleware we could move18:26
ayoungjust to seed the new repo18:26
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bknudsonI think there's a script that oslo uses for moving stuff to a lib18:26
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bknudsonnot sure what it does18:26
morganfainbergdolphm, is is extracting the middleware and the history18:26
gyees3, nobody care about that one :)18:26
morganfainbergdolphm, its not even a fork18:26
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morganfainbergits just not having to propose the same patches over and over again to multiple places.18:26
morganfainberggyee, s3 i'm not super worried about changes coming into atm18:27
dolphmmorganfainberg: it's the history i wanted to keep; we'll talk after18:27
ayoungok, so here is the ordering then, that I think we need to focus on18:27
morganfainbergdolphm, yeah we will keep the history18:27
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morganfainbergdolphm, that is part of the plan18:27
ayoung1.  kerberos and session18:27
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ayoung2.  auth_token using revocation events18:27
ayoung3. Split repo18:27
ayoung4. audit18:27
morganfainbergdolphm, i'll be using the olso-incubator method for maintaining it and extracting the files18:27
gyeeayoung, make sense18:28
gyeemay want to swap 3. and 4.18:28
gyeeI think audit can happen before split repo18:28
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stevemarwhats there to do for auditing on the client side?18:28
ayounggyee, I thought we said it makes no sense to put audit into client, just to move it to middleware?18:28
ayounggyee, true.18:28
gyeebut they are independent18:29
dolphmmorganfainberg: ack18:29
ayounggyee, the difference will just be in pipeline definition18:29
bknudsonthe audit middleware move is essentially the same as all the other middleware, so maybe not that big of a deal18:29
bknudsonI assume they're just going to import from the new repo so that it's backwards compat18:29
ayoungfilter=keystonclien.Audit   vs keystonemiddleware.Audit18:29
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dolphmwhat is this the priority of, exactly? these all seem like parallelizable (is that a word?) efforts18:30
bknudsonbut it does seem like a waste to have to support the audit middleware import18:30
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ayoungOK...so...go and review client code, please18:30
ayoungdolphm, that's all I got on that18:30
ayoungdolphm, not quite18:30
morganfainbergthe only concern is preserving history is a 1 shot deal, it's the initial import18:30
dolphm#action review client code18:30
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ayoungsession needs to go in before the revoke events can ggo in18:30
gyeeayoung ++18:31
ayoungbut beyond that, yeah, parallelizable, just prioritization18:31
dolphmayoung: are those reviews dependent?18:31
morganfainbergso i can't peserve history on a separate bit of code w/o resubmitting all the patches unless it's done at the split time.18:31
gyeedolphm, client integration depending on session18:31
dolphmmorganfainberg: fair enough18:31
bknudsonI'd expect during the split there's no merging18:31
stevemarayoung, are there any patches / blueprints for audit?18:32
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ayoungdolphm, not 'session in authtoken' and 'revocation in auth token'  as session needs to be there for revoke to use18:32
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gyeeyeah, that too18:32
morganfainbergbknudson, thats the idea, it should be maybe 1wk to get the split done (based on infra needing to approve the new repo)18:32
morganfainbergbknudson, worst case.18:32
ayoungstevemar, no, as it is existing code, just giving it a place to live18:32
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bknudsonI think they do it on fridays18:32
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morganfainbergbknudson, yep, thats why i said worst case, a week18:32
morganfainberg:)18:32
gyeethat including weekend?18:33
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morganfainberggyee, depends on when everything is done18:33
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dolphm#topic Dynamic fetch of Policy18:33
dolphmayoung: o/18:33
*** openstack changes topic to "Dynamic fetch of Policy (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:33
ayoungOK...so, there are a few conflicting goals18:33
bknudsonI believe we read the policy file on every op now?18:34
dolphmayoung: can you move this off the wiki and into a spec?18:34
ayoungdolphm, I will once I have a clear view.  I started a new spec, that I think I am going to trash, though18:34
ayoungthe goal is for an endpoint to get its policy from keystone18:34
dolphmwhich is really an oslo.policy topic first18:35
ayoungthat leads to a couple questions18:35
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ayoung1.  How does Keystone/ or the endpoint know which policy to serve18:35
ayoungI posted a spec to make it an explicit link, but I think that goes against the current thinking18:35
ayoungright now, a policy file is uploaded, and gets a UUID18:36
ayoungthere is no associateion between that UUID and anything18:36
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ayoungso,  dolphm  recognized that there is no need to know "what service" as all of the policy rules are prefixed buy the service name18:36
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ayoungidentity for keystone rules, and so forth18:36
lbragstadso each endpoints has a policy, /endpoint/<endpoint_id>/policy/<policy_id>/18:36
henrynashayoung: quickie…do you mean endpoint or service….so this is to support an endpoint in region A having different  policies to an endpoint of teh same service in Rgion B ?18:36
ayoungwe could, in theory, just lump them all together18:36
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ayounghenrynash, I mean both18:37
ayounghenrynash, that is one goal18:37
henrynashayoung: ok, got it18:37
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ayoungto be able to send a different policy to different endpoints for the same service18:37
ayounghenrynash, so  the rule  is something like:18:37
ayoungif there is an explicit something for an endpoint, serve that, otherwise, use the global18:37
ayoungbut...18:37
ayoungendpoints don'18:38
ayoungt know who they are18:38
ayoungwe don't set an endpoint ID in the config file18:38
ayoungwe give them a user18:38
ayoungand all operations from that endpoint use that user id18:38
henrynashayoungL the big obvious advantage I see is that you can have different policies for, say, a production region/AZ vs a test region/AZ18:38
ayoungnow, with henrynash 's incipient patch, we have a clean way to segregate the service users18:38
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ayounghenrynash, so I was thinking we could link policy to the service user18:39
dolphmwe discussed this at the summit in terms of hierarchical multitenancy as well, with the notion that all policies between the project in context and the root/null project would apply equally (you'd have to match any rule that appeared in any of them... in other words, they're all AND'ed together)18:39
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ayounghenrynash, and fetch policy based on the project for that service user.18:39
dolphmwhich means that project-specific policy can only narrow the parent's policy18:39
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ayoungdolphm, so...to avoid confusion18:40
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ayoungI am not shooting for "project specific  policy" where the project means the project containing the resource18:40
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ayoungonly the "project" for the service users for now18:40
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ayoungand I am not planning on doing stackable policy right now18:40
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ayoungunless it is the only way to get this implements18:41
ayoungimplemented18:41
dolphmayoung: well if you're thinking in that direction, then it wouldn't be the service user's project, it would be the requesting user's project18:41
dolphmthe service user's project is basically meaningless today anyway18:41
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ayoungdolphm, right.  But we also don't fetch policy at all.  So how would we know what the root policy is?18:42
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ayoungdolphm, are you suggesting that we jump right to stackable, and that we fetch policy based on the requesting users project?18:43
bknudsondo the services know what their endpoint is now?18:43
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ayoungbknudson, no18:43
dolphmayoung: if project_id was a first class attribute on policies, then you could also do something like GET/v3/policies?project_id=&18:43
morganfainbergbknudson, i don't think so.18:43
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ayoungdolphm, yes.  That was my thinking18:44
henrynashayoung: one issue we get a lot from customers is how can we use roles to determin where a user can deploy resource from a given project to a given region/AZ…..(i.e. Adam is special so he can deploy anywhere, but Henry’s a tester so he can only deploy to teh test region)…anything tht can help that in a clean fashion would be great and I’d help with18:44
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ayoungdolphm, the only issue then becomes how do we merge policy for different services18:44
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ayoungtake the status quo18:44
dolphmayoung: that sounds like a one time manual process18:44
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ayoungwe have policy.json checked in to the repo for each project18:45
dolphm"building a policy for your deployment"18:45
ayoungso are we going to provide a global policy file?18:45
gyeehierarchical multipolicy18:45
ayoungit means that each of the openstack services  no longer owns the default policy for themselves, and that seems wrong18:46
ayoungI would think that Keystone should provide:18:46
ayoung1.  Basica policy enforcment\18:46
ayoung2.  Basic policy fetch18:46
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ayoung3.  Default rules for ais_Admin and the like18:46
ayoungand 4.  rule for identity18:46
ayoungrules18:46
ayoungthen the other services would extend the base policy18:47
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* jamielennox arrives - sorry18:47
ayoungthere is also the question of all of the *aaS  new projects18:47
ayoungwhat about something that is just incubated?18:47
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ayoungI think we want to keep policy management separated by service18:48
bknudsonservice users are created in keystone (by devstack), projects could create their policy the same way18:48
gyeewhahhh? policy as a separable service?18:48
ayoungno18:48
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dstanekgyee: each service having it's own policy18:49
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ayounggyee, just that base policy editing for Nova is done by Nova team, and base policy editing for Glance is done by the glance team18:49
henrynashdstanek: ++18:49
gyeecome to think of it, why not?18:49
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ayoungI think there is a benefit, though, to dolphm 's idea of merging them into a singe file18:49
ayoungsingle18:49
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ayoungas it allows for reuse of rules18:49
bknudsondevstack could just `openstack policy-add nova/policy.json`18:50
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gyeeif you look at oslo policy code, it has hooks for remote policy enforcement18:50
ayoungbknudson, so...if we keep them as separate blobs, that will work18:50
gyeejust saying18:50
ayoungit just means that when we fetch, we have to get the correct blob for  the service, and that is what I am aiming to lock down18:51
ayoungwhat does the API look like for fetching policy?18:51
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bknudsonnova has policy ID in its .conf, and fetches that one18:51
dolphmgyee: oh that's new to me18:51
bknudsonor are we trying to avoid that?18:51
ayoungis it by endpoint id or is it by service user project?18:51
gyeedolphm, I remember it supports http brain or something like that18:52
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gyeebut I haven't dig into that code for awhile18:52
ayoungbknudson, if you do that, you have to admin each endpoint separately.18:52
ayoungIE...I want poicy to change for endpoin E, I first upload the new policy file, then go and edit the config file on E18:52
ayoungthat seems wrong18:53
ayoungjust put it in E18:53
ayoungit only makes sense if we want keystone to be the policy store18:53
dolphm(5 minutes left, and we have a few updates from henrynash to cover)18:53
ayoungif we don't lets deprecate policy, but I think we do want it18:53
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lbragstadtake this topic to -keystone after the meeting?18:53
dolphm++ and -specs! :)18:53
dolphm#topic Multi-backend Unique Identifiers18:53
*** openstack changes topic to "Multi-backend Unique Identifiers (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:53
dolphmhenrynash: o/18:54
henrynashok, very quikcly18:54
ayoungdolphm, I'll write the spec once I know the scheme18:54
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10049718:54
henrynashupdated spec publhsed and new patch to match18:54
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/74214/ implementation18:54
henrynashonly two questions18:54
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henrynash1) The patch is big since it includes all the mechanical unit test changes of moving ID gernation from controller ot manager…18:54
ayoungdon't split18:55
ayoungit will delay.18:55
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ayoungIts not such a terrible patch.18:55
henrynash…it would be a bit of a pain to split it up so that part goes in separately…but will do so if peopel feel that’s imporant18:55
ayoungthe number of changes is irrelevant, as they are all mostly doing the same thing18:55
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dolphmayoung: splitting will also get patches in more quickly with better review coverage / more stability18:56
morganfainbergsplitting would mkae the review much easier18:56
lbragstad2224 lines is a lot of patch18:56
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dolphmlbragstad: ++18:56
ayoungdisagree18:56
morganfainbergbut i am willing to review it as is. i would prefer it split18:56
ayoungsplitting at this point will make it harder18:56
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ayoungso what18:56
lbragstadbite sized reviews will be easier18:56
ayoungwe still need to review 2224 lines18:56
ayoungjust in two patches as opposed to one18:56
lbragstadbut in functional change sets it's more manageable18:56
dstanekfor the patch in question i had to start splitting it up to understand it - i would vote for smaller patches18:57
dstanekayoung: it's about context and how much you have to keep in your head at once18:57
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dolphmdstanek: ++18:57
bknudsonthere get to be too many comments on large reviews and reviewers get tired of looking at the same changes over and over again.18:57
henrynashand question 2) is….should we salt the hash of the ID with something that is unique to each “cloud” in case anyone is worried about the same LDAP users in the default domain having the same ID from two clouds18:57
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morganfainberg a study was done and said peer review quality goes waaaay down over 400lines of change18:57
lifelessgoes down before then18:57
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dolphmmorganfainberg: i'd like a bot to -1 when we cross that threshold :)18:58
lifelessbut thats the cliff18:58
morganfainberglifeless, ++18:58
ayounghenrynash, salt can be a follow on patch18:58
ayoungI think it is a stand alone feature.18:58
dolphm(time)18:58
ayoungLets not hold this up for it,18:58
dolphm#endmeeting18:59
*** openstack changes topic to "launchpad openid is down. login to openstack services will fail until launchpad openid is happy again"18:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 17 18:59:26 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-06-17-18.00.html18:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-06-17-18.00.txt18:59
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-06-17-18.00.log.html18:59
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anteayao/19:00
jeblairhello19:00
anteayahello19:00
anteayalet's gather some others19:00
jesusauruso/19:00
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clarkbo/19:01
wenlock_hi19:01
jesusaurushullo19:01
zaroo/19:01
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e0nehi19:01
ianwo/19:01
SergeyLukjanovo/19:01
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mordredo/19:01
jeblair#startmeeting infra19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 17 19:01:46 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
reedo/ halfway here, the other half helping martin19:01
ttxo/19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:01
jeblair#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting19:01
jeblairagenda ^19:02
jeblair#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-06-10-19.02.html19:02
jeblairlast meeting ^19:02
nibalizero/19:02
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jeblair#topic  Upgrade jenkins build-timeout plugin (zaro)19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Upgrade jenkins build-timeout plugin (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/9765119:02
zarojust wanted to know what the process is for this to get done19:02
jeblaircool, as i recall, we almost upgraded to this until we saw that the released a version that fixed a perf bug19:03
zarodo we just wait for next opportunity or plan something?19:03
jeblairor rather, we almost upgraded to 1.13, and saw that they released 1.14 which fixed the perf bug19:03
* fungi lurks from a wireless modem in the midst of an empty townhouse19:03
jeblairbut it looks like from your commit msg, 1.14 should be safe for us19:03
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anteayahey fungi19:03
zaroyep.19:03
jeblairso i think what we should do is a rolling upgrade of the numbered jenkins masters19:04
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* morganfainberg is lurking here as well.19:04
jeblairan infra-core should put one in shutdown mode, upgrade it when all jobs are finished19:04
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jeblairkeep an eye on that one jenkins for a bit, and if it works, maybe do 2 or more at a time after that19:04
clarkb++19:05
jesusaurus++19:05
fungisounds good19:05
clarkbI am happy to volunteer for that once I am feeling well19:05
anteayado we need a slow time for this or anytime?19:05
jeblairanteaya: anytime will be okay19:05
anteayak19:05
jeblairi can pitch in after today19:05
anteayaclarkb: think you might be better by the end of the week?19:05
jesusaurushow many jenkins masters are there again?19:06
clarkbanteaya: yes and if I am not I will be cranky19:06
clarkbjesusaurus: 819:06
anteaya8 I think19:06
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anteayaclarkb: no cranky19:06
jeblairjesusaurus: 8 -- seven numbered, plus jenkins.o.o itself, which we'll probably do last19:06
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jesusaurusand how long does it usually take for a master to finish its currently running jobs?19:06
jeblairi'll try to start on it tomorrow19:06
jeblairjesusaurus: about an hour19:07
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jeblairthis might end up taking a few days, which i think is okay, it's not urgent19:07
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jesusaurusso a rolling upgrade is at quickest a full day19:07
jeblairyup19:07
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jeblair#action jeblair and clarkb if feeling better to upgrade jenkins timeout plugin starting june 1819:08
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jeblairzaro: good?19:08
zarosounds good19:08
jeblair#topic  Create release of python-jenkins? (zaro)19:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Create release of python-jenkins? (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:09
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jeblairthis project has progressed quickly.  :)19:09
zaroany plan for this at all?  i think it would help jjb19:09
jeblairzaro: who is active on python-jenkins?19:09
zarome, hashar and msbramo19:10
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jeblairzaro: do you think everyone is in agreement about making a release?19:11
zaroi haven't checked that.  just wanted to know if there was any plan to release anytime soon?19:12
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jeblairzaro: is python-jenkins fully pbr now?19:12
zaroi can double check with the group and let you know.19:12
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zarojeblair: don't remember off the top of my head, but i think there might still be an oustanding change for pbr.19:13
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jeblairzaro: i'd propose the following:19:13
jeblair1) merge pbr support19:13
zaroi think this is it https://review.openstack.org/#/c/9045519:13
jeblair2) get agreement from hashar and msbramo about making a release19:14
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zarocan you help with 1?  review i mean?19:14
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jeblairzaro: i think you and hashar both know how to push tags correctly for a pbr release yeah?  if so, i think we should add you, and you can teach msbramo if he wants to join too19:15
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jeblair3) one of you pushes a tag19:15
zarosounds good19:15
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clarkb++19:16
jeblairyeah, i can review that.  hopefully mordred too19:16
* mordred can argue with mgagne ...19:16
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mordreda new version of python-jenkins is not going to get added to precise in any case19:16
mgagnemordred: ok19:16
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jeblairi note a comment about supporting precise; if we find we need to do a security release, we could always branch from the initial import commit and make such a release manually19:17
mordredso there's _always_ going to be a PPA involved for people who want new python-jenkins on old ubuntu19:17
mgagnemordred: the essence of my comment is: "It's not a strong -1. I'm however warning about the work this could generate for downstream packaging python-jenkins which is a detail we often forget."19:17
mordredmgagne: ++19:17
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jeblairmgagne, zaro: we should probably do a version bump significant enough to note the major change introduced by pbr19:18
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jeblair(and leave room for a security point release from the current version number if we need to)19:19
mgagnemordred: openstack is "cool" because it has special attention from downstream, not python-jenkins. So we shouldn't lightly add tools known to be exclusively used by openstack projects to non-openstack projects and hope downstream will keep up with it.19:19
jeblairaw man, i thought we were cooler than openstack ;)19:20
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mgagnejeblair: uberstack19:20
anteayawith umlaut19:20
jeblairokay, we can probably continue that on the review19:20
nibalizerüberstack19:20
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anteayathere we go19:20
jeblairif pbr doesn't land, erm, we'll do something else  :)19:21
jeblair#topic  roadmap for gerrit to consume the openid provider (reed)19:21
*** openstack changes topic to "roadmap for gerrit to consume the openid provider (reed) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:21
mordredI'm going to continue to push on that topic19:21
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mordredbut I grok mgagne's concerns - so I'l see if I can write something up re: solutions19:21
reedso...19:21
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jeblair#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-dev/%23openstack-dev.2014-06-13.log19:21
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jeblairtimestamp 2014-06-13T18:20:1119:22
reedthe current status of the openid project is that the code is working on openstackid-dev19:22
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reedthe connection to the real user database is not live yet, it's pending the move of such database from cloudsites to a Rackspace virtual server19:23
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anteayawho is in charge of that move?19:23
anteayaand is it scheduled?19:23
reedthe move has been approved and is technically without problems, it just needs to happen19:23
jeblairreed: why not trove?19:24
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reedTodd is in charge of that move, it has not been scheduled yet (I have no ETA)19:24
mordred++19:24
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mordredthat was ++ to "why not trove"19:24
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reedjeblair, because trove requires a lot more changes and time we don't have19:24
jeblairreed: it's just a mysql database19:24
reedjeblair, I think it has to do with the deployment system that they use19:25
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anteayacan we get Todd to come to Germany?19:25
reedjeblair, honestly, I don't know the details, trove was not considered a 'simple move' and I ditched it19:25
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reedanteaya, you can ask, not sure it would help19:25
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anteayakk, I'll see what I can do19:26
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reedto go back to the timeline, once we move Silverstripe to RAX Managed Servers we can think about deploying to the final 'home'19:26
mordredWOW. WHAT????19:26
anteayawhat is Silverstripe?19:27
mordredok. I'm sorry. I'm not going to keep my mouth shut about that. that's the most assinine thing I've ever heard from the openstack foundation19:27
reedthat will be something like openstackid.org or openstackcommunity.org or anything19:27
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reedmordred: no, it's not, we can take that on the list if you prefer19:27
mordredWE MAKE CLOUD SOFTWARE. the foundation should USE IT19:27
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reedmordred: yep, rackspace does cloud software too  and the move is to openstack based cloud19:28
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mordredyou just said "RAX Managed Servers"19:28
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mordredthat's a non-cloud product that rackspace sells to people where you get a server that they help you admin19:28
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* mordred walks away before he screams more19:29
reedmordred: wrong name then.. it's RAX product where they run the virtual machines for you19:29
ttxmanaged cloud instances maybe19:29
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reedthat's it,ttx, thanks19:29
ttxthough my mouth hurts just sayign it19:29
jeblairreed: does the foundation have any intention of having the db and the rest of the website (silverstripe) managed as part of the infrastructure program?19:30
reedthe thing is that we need to have openid code in the same cloud as Silverstripe19:30
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fungiconcerns were raised during previous discussions that the foundation wanted a vendor with 24x7 on-call support rather than something vulunteer-run19:30
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mordredreed: ^^ jeblair's question?19:30
ttx"Managed Cloud"19:30
reedjeblair, I can't answer for that19:30
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jeblairreed: i ask because we developed a roadmap about two years ago that involved publishing the existing site to cloud sites as an open source app as part of our workflow19:31
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ttx(http://www.rackspace.com/cloud/service-levels/)19:31
clarkbit was san diego then again portland19:31
jeblairreed: and the current plan you describe seems to involve the app continuing to be proprietary and hosted outside of project-acessible resources19:31
reedjeblair, right, I think it's a matter of resources19:31
reedwe go back to the underlying issue: deploying with you costs a lot of time19:31
jeblairreed: i have been volunteering for two years to do all of the work19:32
reed*a lot* is a crucial word19:32
fungithere still seem to be some interested parties in foundation management who insist on service-level agreements and a list of escalation phone numbers, et cetera19:32
mordredjeblair: ++19:32
ttxjeblair: I think that's the crux of the issue. Does the Foundation want this system to be run by the project infra team, or separate19:32
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reedhi fungi19:32
fungihowdy reed19:32
mordredttx: well, no. the crux of _this_ issue is if we can let a portion of the infra production system be outside of our ability to fix it19:32
reedttx: the crux of the issue is that these things need to move fast and infra is the opposite of fast, based on current experience19:32
reedand that's not a judgement, to be clear19:33
mordredit is19:33
mordredand I'm quite literally shaking with rage at the moment19:33
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mrmartinin middle-term we could host the Foundation web related project in a paas hosted by the infra team...19:33
ttxreed: I think in that case, slowness is not really on infra side19:33
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fungimeasured, deliberate, careful, maintainable, sustainable... those things *might* be seen by some as the opposite of "fast"19:34
jeblairreed: i will repeat one more time for the record what i've said for the past two years -- point me at the git repo with the site source code and it will be hosted in infra within 2 days.19:34
reedmordred: we can discuss all you want, but openstack.org launched the marketplace in 3 months and openid is still months away19:34
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reedjeblair, for the records, we can keep playing this blame game or move on to the topic at hand19:35
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jeblairreed: if todd and jonathan had put 2 hours of work into the site, then i would have been able to help it move.19:35
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reedjeblair, I believe you19:35
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jeblairreed: as is, we've been told that todd has no time available because he's working on things like the marketplace19:35
fungimordred puppeted stackalytics in an afternoon, fwiw. i don't know that you can really say the systems automation part is entirely to blame for those sort of development timelines19:35
jeblairit's the opposite of open collaboration and open source19:35
mordredfungi: ++19:36
reedjeblair, but besides that, Todd and Jonathan and tipit would have had to put in a lot of extra hours to do things a lot differently19:36
mordredfungi: took 1 hour19:36
fungimordred: so i exaggerated ;)19:36
reedI have no doubt about your knowledge, it's the rest of the world that I'm concerned about19:36
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mordredreed: the only people who seem to have problems are Todd and tipit19:36
reedmordred: martin has similar issues19:37
mordredthe rest of the world thinks we're pretty amazing and go out of their way to copy things we do19:37
mordredin any case19:37
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mordredif openstackid depends on a database that's run by tipit and todd19:37
reedmordred: i know that19:37
mordredI'm not sure we can inject it into our production workflow19:37
jeblairreed: okay, so to the task at hand, i don't personally have an interest in making the project infrastructure depend on _more_ proprietary non-community-run systems.  i am willing to help work on making them depend on fewer ones.19:37
mordredbecause I do not have operational trust in them19:37
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jeblairor what mordred said19:37
mordredbased on their trackrecord of breaking things19:37
mordredthe do not know how to run operational systems to the level we require19:38
mordredand have proven this over and over again19:38
jeblairi'm also losing trust because the current road map does not match what we have discussed.  not by a long shot19:38
mordredso it's a non-starter until this is sorted19:38
reedgot it19:38
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reedand it's good for me to, for the time being19:38
jeblairand i do not think we should allow ourselves to end up in an awkward situation based on that19:38
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reedall I care is that I manage to get openid on our infrastructure first, even if it calls a database hosted on openstack, run by rackspace19:39
ttxmordred, reed: i'll take the action of clarifying the ownership/control issue19:39
ttxbecause this uncertainty has lasted for too long19:39
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mordredttx: thank you19:39
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reedso first we have that db run on openstack and then we can insist on deploying it with scripts managed in the #infra19:40
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reedI can live with gerrit not adopting openid provider until the SS database is managed via infra19:40
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reedonly warning: everybody breaks things, not only tipit19:41
mordredreed: totally19:41
mordredreed: we can just fix them when they break in our world19:41
mordredreed: and I think the above seems reasonable19:41
reedcool19:41
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jeblairreed: anything else on this?19:42
fungiand this is not really an abnormal expectation. at a former employer, no new systems went into production until they were in deployment automation and documented such that anyone on the requisite support teams could step in and solve them when there was an issue19:43
reed... I don't think so19:43
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jeblairfungi: that sounds so professional!19:43
reedjeblair, next topic for me19:43
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jeblair#topic  Review proposal towards a better integration of gerrit and openstack people db (reed)19:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Review proposal towards a better integration of gerrit and openstack people db (reed) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:43
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reeddidn't we talk about this last week already?19:44
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anteayayes19:44
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jeblairsorry, wasn't here;  next topic again?19:44
anteayadid we cover everything you needed last week?19:44
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reedanteaya, I think so, I'm good so far19:44
jeblair#topic  Request for comments on the horizon split plan (rdopiera)19:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Request for comments on the horizon split plan (rdopiera) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:44
anteayagreat, thanks19:45
reedthere is a message to the mlist too19:45
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anteayathis was a left over from last week as well19:45
anteayadin't know if we were finished here or not19:45
anteayahe isn't in channel19:45
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anteayalooks like a fresher topic is in order19:46
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anteayadid we lose jim?19:46
jeblair#topic  Review Third Party wiki templates - seed pages (anteaya)19:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Review Third Party wiki templates - seed pages (anteaya) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:47
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anteayathere we go19:47
jeblairthis meeting is speeding up!19:47
anteaya#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ThirdPartySystems/IBMPowerKVMCI19:47
anteaya#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ThirdPartySystems/OpenStack-Neutron19:47
anteayawe looked at these last week19:47
anteayareed wanted a more prominent title, I don't know how to do that19:47
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anteayaare we ready to go live with these?19:48
anteayafolks are keen to use them19:48
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reedI support this sort of standardization wholeheartedly19:48
anteayaany reason to not start using them?19:48
krtayloranteaya, I'd like to change the wording a bit on ours, but generally, yes19:48
anteayareed: thanks19:48
clarkbI think we can go ahead with what we have and work on the templates as we go19:48
clarkbas far as format for larger title goes19:48
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anteayakrtaylor: right but the template19:48
krtayloryes19:49
anteayagreat thanks19:49
anteayaI'm good to move on19:49
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reedi only wish mediawiki had a better UI... one day, it'll get there :)19:49
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fungiyeah, it looks like an encyclopedia or something19:50
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SergeyLukjanovI like how template looks like // https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ThirdPartySystems/IBMPowerKVMCI19:50
anteayaSergeyLukjanov: thanks19:50
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jeblairanteaya: do we have docs prepared telling people how to fill these out, etc?19:51
jeblair(and that they should fill them out)?19:51
anteayano19:51
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anteayaI was going to start small and get some good examples19:51
anteayaand then work on a docs page19:51
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anteayawhere should the doc page be, anyplace special?19:51
funginext order of business is probably to submit a change for review to update third-party.rst19:51
anteayaor just somewhere on the wiki?19:51
reedon the wiki ?19:51
anteayafungi: that sounds good19:52
jeblairyeah, what fungi said19:52
anteayakk19:52
anteayamy next topic is a quick one19:52
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jeblairthen once that's there, we can write an email letting people know about the changes and link to it19:52
fungiwhether the bulk of the documentation goes onto the wiki with just a stub paragraph and link in that file or whether it's all documented in that file, i don't really have a preference19:52
anteayakk19:52
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anteayaI'll offer something and get some feedback19:52
jeblairi think the bulk should be in third-party.rst19:53
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anteayaand expand the example pages19:53
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anteayaI can do that19:53
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jeblair#topic  Formatting Automated Gerrit Account Names (anteaya)19:54
*** openstack changes topic to "Formatting Automated Gerrit Account Names (anteaya) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:54
anteaya#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ThirdPartySystems/OpenStack-Neutron19:54
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anteayaso we agreed to some formatting last week19:54
anteayamy question is where should I publish it?19:54
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anteayathirdparty.rst?19:54
jeblairanteaya: do you mean https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/automated-gerrit-account-naming-format ?19:54
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anteayayes19:54
anteayathat was the link19:55
clarkbanteaya: or even on the wiki. I think because so much data goes into the wiki it may be good to make thirdparty.rst more of a stub into the wiki19:55
anteayasorry about that19:55
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clarkbbut liek fungi said I think either way will work19:55
anteayalines 11-16 is what I would like to document19:55
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anteayaactually I need to get infra-manual going19:55
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jeblairclarkb: i'm strongly in favor of rst; our requirements are not subject to anyone editing them, they are subject to review19:55
anteayaand would like to have a third party section in infra-manual19:55
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clarkbjeblair: good point19:55
anteayaI can get behind that19:56
jeblairanteaya: yeah, infra-manual could work too19:56
clarkb++19:56
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jeblairanteaya: i think lines 11-16 are good for rst docs19:56
mordredinfra-manual++19:56
anteayathirdparty.rst for now and infra-manual for expansion19:56
anteayajeblair: thanks19:56
anteayaI'm done19:56
fungii agree that something going through gerrit gets votes and an approval/audit trail, so good thing for policy document19:56
fungis19:56
anteayaagreed19:56
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clarkbI have two things I wanted to put on peoples radars that don't really need a topic. 1) we need to restart zuul to pick up a bugfix around the swift stuff and 2) elasticsearch seems to be hving trouble with its rax volumes19:58
jeblair#topic Open Discussion19:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:58
anteayaianw had an item19:58
clarkbif we bump our volume quota we can shift to ssd volumes and hopefully make ES happy19:58
anteayaf2019:58
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jeblairanteaya: there was no name and we're out of time for that i think19:58
anteayaoh I did add him19:58
clarkbbut we can't do that without downtime with our current volume quota19:58
anteayasorry ianw19:58
anteayabut I added him after the meeting started19:59
fungireminder: i'm not really around at the moment... but this place gets furniture and an internet connection tomorrow, so i should be catching up again late in the week19:59
jeblairclarkb: if we can't get in touch with pvo, we should ask phschwartz19:59
anteayafungi: glad to have you back once you are back19:59
jeblairalso, i've started a new job at HP19:59
anteayafungi: hope things are going smoothly so far19:59
clarkbjeblair: ya he pointed at pvo but we can keep asking around :)19:59
anteayajeblair: yay!19:59
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wenlock_jeblair grats! welcome19:59
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jeblairit's an architectural role relating to HP's use of our development tools/systems/methodologies20:00
anteayaawesome20:00
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jeblairmy interaction with openstack will be substantially similar, so no huge changes there20:00
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jeblairand i think we're out of time20:01
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zarogood to hear!20:01
jeblair#endmeeting20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "launchpad openid is down. login to openstack services will fail until launchpad openid is happy again"20:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 17 20:01:12 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-06-17-19.01.html20:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-06-17-19.01.txt20:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-06-17-19.01.log.html20:01
ttxinteresting topic20:01
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ttxjeblair: looks like that one needs to be cleared now :)20:01
ttxAnyone here for the TC meeting ?20:01
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anteayao/20:01
devanandao/20:01
SergeyLukjanovo/20:01
mikalHi20:01
markmchey20:02
dhellmanno/20:02
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ttxrussellb, annegentle, mordred, vishy, markmcclain, jeblair, sdague : around ?20:02
sdagueo/20:02
annegentleo/20:02
jeblairo/20:02
jeblairttx: 1 sec for topic?20:02
russellbo/20:02
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zehicleo/20:02
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ttxjeblair: go for it20:02
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*** ChanServ changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:03
jeblairttx: all clear thx20:03
ttx#startmeeting tc20:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 17 20:03:13 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:03
ttxAgenda for today:20:03
vishyo/20:03
anteayajgriffith: ping20:03
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee20:03
ttxNB: Agenda was a bit too busy so I pushed back Glance gap coverage plan to next week, with markwash's blessing20:03
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ttx#topic Use of the word "certified"20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Use of the word "certified" (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
markmcclaino/20:04
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-June/036933.html20:04
* zehicle making some popcorn for this one20:04
ttxI think that thread reached conclusion that using "tested" or "CI tested" would be more accurate.20:04
anteayathat was my take on it as well20:04
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ttxanteaya: Not sure we need to discuss that any further, unless a specific outcome is desired and not obtained yet ?20:04
anteayawell just to support cinder in their deprecation of using the word20:04
anteayaif they require that20:04
anteayathe mostly needed to ensure the topic got airtime on the ml, which it did20:05
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ttxjgriffith: your last post seems to agree to phase out "certified" in favor of some variation of "tested"20:05
jgriffithanteaya: there's only a handful of folks that cared, but they're willing to yield20:05
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anteayajgriffith: hey20:05
ttxok, so I don't think we have a problem left to solve20:05
anteayano20:05
jgriffithttx: nope20:05
annegentleagreed20:06
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russellbgreat, thanks jgriffith20:06
markmcagree20:06
jgriffithttx: I'll play along20:06
anteayajgriffith: did you need any support for transition?20:06
markmcnice consensus reaching thread :)20:06
jgriffithanteaya: nah20:06
russellbmarkmc: +120:06
jgriffiththanks though20:06
anteayak20:06
anteayaso I'm done on this one20:06
ttx#agreed Cinder will phase out use of term "certified" for some variation around "tested" that is not as heavily loaded20:06
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ttxnext topic, then!20:06
ttx#topic Review j-1 progress on gap covering plans20:06
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ttxWhen we did the gap coverage plans we said we'd go back and check that everything goes as planned, after each milestone20:07
ttxSo I used the 1:1 syncs today to get a picture of progress in gap coverage plans20:07
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ttxi'll report on behalf of al PTLs now20:07
ttxalthough those that are around should feel free to correct me20:08
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ttx* Ceilometer (https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee/Ceilometer_Gap_Coverage)20:08
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ttx#info Ceilometer is on track, still targeting j2 for fully covering the gap20:08
ttx* Horizon (https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee/Horizon_Gap_Coverage)20:08
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mordredo/20:08
ttx#info Mostly on track. Horizon mission statement is late, but that should be a quick one20:08
ttx* Neutron (https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee/Neutron_Gap_Coverage)20:08
ttx#info Neutron: Work on all gaps has started. Gap 4 is a bit late (was planned for j1), but it's also been determined to just be one API call. Overall, still on track.20:09
ttxmarkmcclain: feel free to comment on that one from your first-hand perspective20:09
ttx* Trove (https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee/Trove_Gap_Coverage)20:09
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ttx#info Trove coverage plan is on track, work started on all items20:09
ttxMore details available in the ptl_sync logs:20:09
ttx#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-06-17-08.00.html20:10
markmcclainttx: correct… in aggregate we're still on target just a few items that are ahead/behind schedule20:10
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sdagueNeutron Gap 2 I remain concerned on, as we don't yet have neutron -> neutron upgrade, so n-net -> neutron probably is not possible in the next 5 weeks20:10
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ttxSo overall I was pleased to see that most gaps were in progress20:10
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markmcclainsdague: I expect that finalizing gap0 should make the fix for 2 quick20:11
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russellbsdague: yeah, i was wondering how the upgrade procedure was coming ... hadn't seen anything20:11
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russellbn-net -> neutron in particular20:11
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markmcclainrussellb: there is WIP code for n-net -> neutron20:12
markmcclaindoesn't handle sec groups yet20:12
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russellbcool, good to hear.20:12
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ttxAll the gap work seems to be priotized correctly, even if some work takes longer than hoped (as always)20:12
ttx+ri20:12
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markmcclain#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100265 n-net ext20:13
ttxOther questions on that?20:13
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ttxI think juno-2 objectives will be a lot harder to meet20:13
ttxand will be the real test20:13
sdagueagreed20:13
jogoa reliable open source default driver isn't on the neutron gap list?20:13
sdaguegood checkpoint though20:14
markmcclainttx: +120:14
ttxbecause a lot of the gap work is being targeted at it20:14
annegentlettx: for https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee/Horizon_Gap_Coverage#Gap_3:_Document_Gaps_between_Horizon_and_CLIs could David update with links to the wiki pages ongoing?20:14
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markmcclainjogo: the default driver is ML2 and we have several folks working to improve it20:14
jogomarkmcclain: ack, just thought that would be on the gap coverage list20:14
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ttxannegentle: david-lyle is in vacation at the moment, so I didn't push too much on his substitutes20:14
ttxannegentle: we can certainly ask for more details when he is back (next week)20:15
annegentlegot it20:15
annegentlethanks20:15
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ttx#topic Defcore update: Swift designated sections & capabilities score process20:16
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ttxzehicle: o/20:16
ttx#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreLighthouse.F2F20:16
zehicleo/20:16
ttxzehicle: floor is yours20:16
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zehiclethanks!20:16
zehiclea few topics to cover from our last DefCore meeting20:16
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zehiclewill dig up link to minutes20:17
ttxzehicle: as an aside, I don't think mordred made progress on the scoring proposal, so if it's still needed, we might want to find another volunteer to drive that20:17
notmyname..???..20:17
zehicleitems 1) timing, 2) designated sections for swift 3) process for core20:17
* notmyname just saw "swift" mentioned20:17
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mordredyeah - sorry, my schedule totally fell apart20:17
ttxnotmyname: I confirm, it was mentioned.20:17
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zehiclewe did a pass to complete the unscored items (object was the only one left)20:18
zehiclesince we're there, we can do #2 first20:18
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ttxmordred: not blaming you, I couldn't have done it if I had it assigned to me either :)20:18
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zehicleour scores had 2 capabilities in swift as core and a few as close but not in20:18
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zehiclehmmm....20:19
markmcok, well we've lost our chair20:19
anteayaI'm listening20:19
mikalSigh20:19
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zehicleturned out to be pretty easy to score - NOTE, there's still a question about IF the capabilities need to change20:19
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zehiclebut that's ok for now20:19
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markmcclaindid we lose our quorum too?20:20
markmc#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/defcore-committee/2014-May/thread.html#173 <- some context20:20
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anteayawe are still logged20:20
dhellmannshould we call role again or something? I can't tell who's still here20:20
russellbwe're back!20:21
ttxah.20:21
ttxok, we are back20:21
sdague:)20:21
annegentlewelcome back!20:21
ttxthat was the shortest netsplit in history20:21
zehiclehttps://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreLighthouse.F2F20:21
zehicle#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreLighthouse.F2F20:21
markmc<zehicle> turned out to be pretty easy to score - NOTE, there's still a question about IF the capabilities need to change20:21
markmc<-- sombrafam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)20:21
markmc<zehicle> but that's ok for now20:21
markmcthat's all you missed20:21
zehicleright now, the DefCore committee has the position that these capabilities SHOULD BE Core20:21
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zehiclehowever, there's a problem with in field implementations of designated sections if Swift is 100% designated20:22
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dhellmannzehicle: you mentioned 2 groups of capabilities, which do you mean?20:22
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zehicledhellman_, must-pass (core) and the rest20:22
dhellmannok20:22
zehiclein the rest, there are some that are clearly out and some are on the bubble20:22
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zehiclethe other capabilities for Swift were "on the bubble"20:22
markmc#link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Av62KoL8f9kAdFo4V1ZLUFM0OHlrRnFpQUkxSHJ5QWc&usp=drive_web#gid=620:23
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* zehicle reminds everyone that this is subject to review20:23
dhellmannI see objectstore-container and objectstore-object as scoring green20:23
zehiclewe're happy to discuss scores, but we will make best effort to keep this moving20:23
zehicledhellman_, yes, those did not chnage20:23
dhellmannyeah, I'm just trying to make sure I understand what all the pronouns mean :-)20:23
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zehicleno worries, I want to be clear20:23
ttxzehicle: so what do you need from us? You still need clarification on those 0.5 scores in TC direction, right20:24
zehicleso we're asking the TC to move forward on designated sections for swift20:24
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zehicleBUT if you say 100% then we will have to re-evaluate the 2 core designations20:24
mikalI still need to ask the other projects for their designated sections as well, I lost my way on that last week20:24
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* ttx would like to hear notmyname's opinion on it first20:25
zehiclettx, yes we are still asking TC to resolve the .5s20:25
russellbttx: +120:25
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mordred++20:25
zehiclettx, it's not blocking us since we did not think it would swing any capabilities into other sections20:25
markmctotally20:25
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notmynameumm..I'm missing a lot of context here. (and I have another meeting in 5 minutes)20:25
zehiclettx, we were NOT trying to close the issue here.  just bring it to the TC so you had the ball20:25
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ttxOK, I'll take the action to reach to notmyname when we both have more time20:26
markmcthanks ttx20:26
zehicleand understood DefCore would have to response if the answer if 100%20:26
notmynamewhat happened to the core capabilities list I sent to the defcore list? also, i've never said anything about 100% of Swift being "designated sections". in fact I've been very clear on the opposite, both in-person and from conference stages20:26
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zehicleI'm happy to be a resource for that discussion as needed20:26
notmynamealso, Ihave no idea where a score of "83" comes from20:26
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markmczehicle, what's this about?20:27
markmcACTION > Rob to take to TC that if Swift has any designated sections then the DefCore committee will likely recommending omitting the "object-*" capabilities from core.20:27
zehiclenotmyname, that needs further review & discussion w/ Troy20:27
zehicleyy20:27
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zehiclemarkmc, that's exactly this topic20:27
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russellbbasically, you need the designated sections opinion from our side on swift20:27
russellband then we go from there20:27
zehiclerussellb, yes.  exactly20:28
russellband to get that, ttx will sync with notmyname later20:28
markmcif the TC says swift has designated sections, the defcore committee will remove all swift capabilities from core?20:28
dhellmannIt sounds like defcore is saying if we call any of swift designated, they're just going to remove the capabilities. Is that right, or am I reading too much into this?20:28
ttxzehicle: so if swift is not 100% designated, it's out of core capabilities ? Bit confursed too20:28
zehiclemarkmc, depends on how the opinion comes out20:28
markmczehicle, I don't understand the logic behind it20:28
zehiclettx, the opposite20:28
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ttx"if Swift has any designated sections then the DefCore committee will likely recommending omitting the "object-*" capabilities from core"20:29
dhellmannI think I'd like to see some of that discussion written up then, because we shouldn't be making technical decisions about what we designate as core to change the capabilities list. That' *EXACTLY* why we split those 2 decisions in the first place.20:29
zehiclein DefCore, concerns were raise that if Swift has core capabilities AND is 100% designated then it creates issues for implmentations20:29
sdaguezehicle: I'm sufficiently confused. Can you restate the thing that needs a decision?20:29
markmc"defcore committee thinks swift should capabilities should not be required in openstack clouds"20:29
russellbzehicle: but nobody has said 100%20:29
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markmc"if the TC thinks swift code should be required, ..."20:29
russellband notmyname just said that's not his opinion either20:29
* markmc still lost20:29
zehicleWe do think Swift capablities are required20:29
markmc(to be clear - the quotes are me trying to paraphrase)20:29
zehiclethat's why 2 of them are in the core list20:29
mordredright. I think we're talking about a hypotehtical which we've already disproven20:29
russellbmordred: yes.20:29
markmczehicle, then why say you'll remove them if there are designated sections?20:29
dhellmannnotmyname: do you have anything written about designated sections for swift?20:29
zehicleBUT we have a challenge if the code is 100% designated20:30
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mordredlet's stop talking about that20:30
russellbzehicle: but it's not20:30
mordredit's a non issue20:30
mordredso let's move on20:30
ttxzehicle: ok20:30
zehicleyes, I'm ok to move on.20:30
notmynamedhellmann: I emailed a rough draft to defcore I think. zehicle has a copy of what I sent20:30
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dhellmannnotmyname: ok, thanks, I'll look at the list archives20:30
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russellbnotmyname: thanks20:30
* mordred waves at notmyname20:30
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ttx#action ttx to reach to notmyname to get proposed designated sections20:31
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* zehicle knows that this is a difficult topic. trying to break it into smaller pieces for discussion20:31
ttxzehicle: you still that that 0.5 scoring clarified, right ?20:31
markmcthe list notmyname sent was capabilities, not designated sections20:31
markmc(to be clear)20:31
zehicleyes, that will help20:31
zehiclewe're trying to have community input meetings last week of June20:31
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dhellmannmarkmc: ok, so it sounds like we still need a discussion about designated sections20:31
ttxTC: do we have a new volunteer to propose a scoring to the governance repo for us to iterate on ?20:31
zehicleMatrix input from Community (2 meetings 25 & 26 of June)20:32
markmcdhellman, right20:32
zehicleit would be good to have all 0 or 1 before those meetings20:32
zehicleand we'll use that as the basis for Icehouse scoring20:32
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ttxok, so we really need a volunteer now :)20:32
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markmc"DefCore agrees that the TC is the deciding body for designated sections."20:33
* markmc thinks that's just plain wrong20:33
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markmcit's a TM policy issue, the board is the deciding body20:33
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mordredmarkmc: I disagree20:33
russellbmarkmc: +120:33
annegentleheh20:33
mordredthe board is the deciding body for the TM issues20:33
markmcand it is a TM issue20:33
mordredI do NOT want the board deciding designated sections20:33
ttxmarkmc: I think we propose designated sections (actually, we make sure PTLs propose them)20:33
mordredbecause that's a code org issue20:33
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zehiclemarkmc, happy to discuss more but that position is a surprise given pass dialogs20:34
ttxthen the BoD does what it wants with them20:34
dhellmann"deciding body" seems strong, but I thought they were asking us to help figure out what parts of the code shouldn't be swapped out20:34
mordredI don't want eileen, for instance, making decisions on which chunks of code do anything20:34
markmcmordred, the choice of which ones required is the TM policy issue20:34
mikalttx: that's a thing I am meant to be working on but haven't progresses as much as I should20:34
mikalI'm drafting something for the TC to take to PTLs requesting designated sections20:34
markmcmordred, what the list of potential required sections are can be something the TC produces20:34
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mordredmarkmc: the choice of technical communities intent for how the code works and is used is us20:34
ttxmikal: think you can have a try at it ?20:34
mikalttx: I have a draft, its lacking some detail though20:34
mikalI can upload a WIP now if you want me to20:34
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ttxmarkmc: the BoD still very much has control over what it does with designated sections and whether it applies them to trademark rules20:35
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markmcdhellman, right20:35
mordredttx: ++20:35
zehicleI don't think the Board is the right agency to pick code sections, unless you want us to say 0% (Apache style)20:35
ttxso we are the deciding body on a technical input20:35
markmcok, we're just mixed up on terminology20:35
mordredI think ttx sums up my view20:35
markmcAIUI "designated" means "required"20:35
ttxwhich they use or not use in trademark rules20:35
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zehicleBoard does pick required capabilities as defined by tests20:35
dhellmannyeah, is "deciding body" some magical legalese, or does it just mean "the TC is going to tell us"20:35
markmcyou guys are saying "designated" is "sections the board can choose to require"20:35
mordreddhellmann: none of these words ACTUALLY have meaning - just the ones we've invented20:36
ttxdhellman_: my understanding is 'the TC will tell us"20:36
zehicleWe're trying to document that at the bottom of that page, the bylaws changes "in plain english" section20:36
dhellmannmarkmc: right, the intersection of code (TC) and capabilties (board)20:36
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zehicledhellman +120:36
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dhellmannmordred: no wonder we have so much trouble talking about this :-)20:36
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mordredthe TC picks the sections. the board can use or not use that information to inform its choice of capabilities20:36
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mordredthe sections are only an input into a decision matrix20:36
mordredso the sections ARE 100% us20:37
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dhellmannmordred: yes, except I am a little surprised to hear the thing about swift20:37
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mordredbut their application towards trademark policy is the board20:37
dhellmannwell, a *very* little surprised20:37
markmcright and the sections the board chooses are called "designated sections"20:37
markmcno the list the TC picks20:37
mordredno20:37
markmcnot20:37
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mikalttx: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100675/ is what I have so far20:37
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mordredthe board does not pick sections20:37
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mordredthe board picks capabilities20:37
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mordredsections are a way to help choose capabilities20:37
zehicleclearly, this has not reached the level of clarity I'd hoped.  My appologies20:37
markmcso the board takes our list of designated sections, or throws it away20:37
mordredthe board takes it20:38
markmcbinary? no selective choosing from our list?20:38
mordredit is input20:38
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mordredto the list of capabilites20:38
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markmcit's totally separate from the list of capabilities!20:38
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zehiclemordred, yes but there's a nuance because we expect the capabilities to be defined by the projects20:38
markmcTM requirements are capabilities + designated sections20:38
markmcAIUI20:38
ttxmikal: that's designated sections -- I'm looking for a volunteer to push scoring proposals for the "Tc direction" column20:38
zehicleThe board is really picking WHICH ones are core20:38
dhellmannmarkmc: if the board sees that a capability is defined by a section of code we're not designating, then it won't be a core capability. And vice versa.20:38
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ttxmikal: I think you have enough on your plate with that first one20:38
mikalttx: ahhh, ok. We're talking about different things then20:39
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mikalttx: agreed, I think the designated section thing shows I'm too busy at the moment20:39
markmcdhellman, oooh, I don't think so ...20:39
mordredok. I'm three seconds from ragequitting my fourth thing of the day. the complexity of what we're working on to decide which things we make people can ignore is mind boggling20:39
mordredwe make software20:39
zehicledhellman_, if the code's not designated but the capability is core that's OK20:39
markmcdhellmann, AIUI capabilities can be required even if the code isn't a designated section20:39
mordredpeople shold be lining up at the door to use it20:39
dhellmannzehicle: that makes no sense at all20:39
markmcdhellmann, which I think is behind this statement about swift20:39
mordredand we should stop spending so much time working on giving them lists of stuff they can ignore20:39
mordredBUT20:39
mordredif we're going to do that20:39
zehicleit just means that the vendor can substitute20:40
mordredthen the parts related to CODE should be from us20:40
dhellmannhow can the board require a deployer to use code the technical community won't stand behind, or thinks should be swapped out with a driver?20:40
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dhellmann"an OpenStack cloud must do this thing we're not going to give you supported code to do"? that's odd.20:40
mordreddhellmann: the board isnt' looking to reuqire extra things. it's looking to let people use the openstack name even if they don't use stuff we like20:40
markmcit would be foolish to do so, but they are the final deciding body on trademark requirements20:40
russellbmordred: i certainly can relate to your sentiment about the complexity of all this ...20:40
mordredbceause there are people with vested interests in being allowed to do that20:40
zehicleI'm thinking a single topic meeting may be in order.  I think the context of this is getting lost20:40
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mordredwhereas all of us here actually just want people to use the lovely code we're writing them and are confused as to why people want to be able to delete some of it20:41
zehiclewe specifically do NOT want the board adding extra stuff.20:41
markmcclainI'm still wondering why this is so hard… can we not split the question?20:41
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markmcmordred, totally agree on the rage, btw20:41
ttxlet's concentrate on the inputs, we can discuss the machinery that will consume them at another meeting20:42
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markmcclaindetermine capabilities that have to exist and then decide on code that has to be used and what can be driver/plugin based?20:42
dhellmannttx: +120:42
devanandattx: +120:42
mordredI mean, if it weren't for the people who aren't participating technically but still wanting to buy their way into using the name, this would be VERY easy20:42
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mordredRAGE RAGE RAGE20:42
ttxso if there is no volunteer to propose a scoring, I'll take it20:42
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ttxyeepee20:42
devanandai've been trying to follow the confusion to see if I could help settle it ... but no. I think mordred has stated it in ways that match my understanding.20:42
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markmcttx, you don't have to be the default volunteer :(20:43
dhellmannttx: do we just need to turn those 0.5s in column G to 1 or 0?20:43
ttxmarkmc: well, someone has to do it20:43
ttxdhellman_: yes20:43
ttxand mind you, just propose something that we will iterate on review20:43
ttxIt's not that much work20:43
dhellmannI'll do it20:43
ttxcool!20:44
markmcthanks dhellmann20:44
ttxthanks dhellmann20:44
russellbmordred: so, yes, we want you to use the code wrote, so 100%, moving on?  :)20:44
russellbelse it's not our software20:44
ttx#action dhellmann to pick up the scoring proposal for the "TC direction" column20:44
russellbthat was easy20:44
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ttxok, let's move on20:44
annegentlethanks dhellmann (and ttx for being willing)20:44
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ttxbut we need to have that discussion again20:44
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zehiclemy final item was that we're going to Gerrit to manage changes to the scores & capabilities going forward20:45
ttxAs I expect we won't be happy with what will come out of the machine we are feeding the required inputs to20:45
zehicleI can hold that till next week20:45
dhellmannzehicle: do you have the link to the definitions of those capabilities handy? I'm sure I have it somewhere...20:45
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ttxzehicle: ack20:45
ttxOK, let's move on to the governance changes in review20:45
zehicle #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/CoreCriteria20:45
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/CoreCriteria20:46
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zehicle#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/DefCoreLexicon20:46
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zehicle#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/CoreDefinition20:46
dhellmannzehicle: there was a json file somewhere with mappings to test names?20:46
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* zehicle glad that our meeting notes are helpful20:46
zehicledhellmann, yes.  in refstack github.  It's about to change based on last meeting but I'll share the link20:47
dhellmannzehicle: thanks, an email is fine if you don't have it handy here20:47
* anteaya hears lightening close, could lose power any moment20:47
ttxok moving on20:47
ttx#topic Adds a resolution addressing expected election behavior20:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Adds a resolution addressing expected election behavior (Meeting topic: tc)"20:47
zehicle#link https://github.com/stackforge/refstack/tree/master/defcore/havana20:47
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/9867520:47
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ttxThere seems to be general agreement on expected behavior, which is good20:47
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ttxBut two different approaches when it comes to enforcing that behavior20:48
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ttxOne (the original proposal by anteaya) based on report and investigation of questionable behavior, with potential punishment in the end (institutional pressure)20:48
ttxOne (recent counter-thread by eglynn) based on assuming voters will punish questionable behavior once we clearly set what is acceptable and what is not (reputational pressure)20:48
ttxAs a sidenote, I don't think we (as the TC) can wield the threat of removing Foundation membership (and/or ability to vote or be elected)20:48
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* russellb likes the eglynn approach20:48
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russellbset expectations, and call people out20:48
ttxBylaws say that individual membership may be terminated for violation of the community Code of Conduct (Secretary+Executive Director decision, or Board of Directors asking then to)20:48
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ttxIt may be within the board's power to pass a decision to exclude someone, but clearly it's not under our own power20:49
ttxSo we (as the TC) can't threaten to remove Foundation membership, we can at best report what we think is a violation of the CoC to the Board20:49
sdagueyeh, I'm honestly more into eglynn's idea. I think shame is pretty powerful, especially if people have to affirm a thing.20:49
ttxAn institutional pressure that relies on an indirect threat may be less efficient than a reputational pressure20:49
jeblairttx: so with that in mind, i think that anteaya's approach is the better one20:49
markmcI think I saw something about bringing miscreants to the ED for punishment20:49
* anteaya notes Rob Ford is due back on the job after leaving rehab20:49
mikalmarkmc: that's the most recent draft20:49
markmcwhich would make me sad - we don't need the Foundation staff to enforce our culture20:49
ttxmarkmc: by the way, who is the secretary?20:50
jeblairanteaya's proposal handles establishing the expected behavior and communicating it to people20:50
markmcttx, good question20:50
markmcclainmy only concern about using reputation for pressure is that we still have to have some kind of structure20:50
jeblairi believe that is the core thing we need to do20:50
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ttx(more bylaws fun, every time I read it I learn something new)20:50
dhellmannyeah, I'm not sure I like the idea that the TC completely abdicates responsibility for its elections to the foundation staff20:50
jeblairwhereas eglynn's proposal actually seeds to have a lot red tape20:50
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jeblairdhellmann: i don't think the proposal is to abdicate --20:51
jeblairi think the issue is that when we get into things like "code of conduct violations" that's the purveiew of the foundation20:51
dhellmannjeblair: the current draft no longer mentions the TC being involved in abuse reporting20:51
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jeblairbecause it's the foundation's code of conduct20:51
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dhellmannI do agree that the foundation should enforce its code of conduct20:51
markmcclainwell don't all members of the foundation have the right to refer a code of conduct violation to foundation staff?20:51
jeblaircool, and its coc says "respect the election process"20:51
dhellmannI just think the TC should be aware of issues, and I would like to see some option for making them public.20:52
jeblairmarkmcclain: yep20:52
annegentleyes I think anyone should be able to report problematic behavior20:52
ttxSo it seems we need to have a longer discussion on that subject. My suggestion is... each party should refine its proposal using a gerrit review20:52
markmcclainso the question is lets say that someone violates the code the conduct20:52
markmcclainshould we as the TC assert that we have the right to re-run an election?20:52
ttxand we'll compare the merits of both proposals (once complete) at another meeting20:52
eglynntwo separate codes of conduct BTW ... community: http://www.openstack.org/legal/community-code-of-conduct and foundation: http://www.openstack.org/legal/code-of-conduct20:52
jeblairfundamentally, i think the issue is that we need to state expectations and communicate them.20:53
ttxeglynn: one is for foundation officers20:53
ttxthe other for foundation members20:53
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markmcclainjeblair:  +1 to expectations20:53
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dhellmannjeblair: +120:53
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russellbre-running election is a good question20:53
ttxI think everyone agrees on acceptable behavior20:53
markmcclainit is just that the breakdown is that we don't have any procedures for when someone violates those expectations20:53
ttxnobody questioned that first part of anteaya's draft20:53
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dhellmannttx: true20:54
ttxI still would like the alternate view to crystallize into its own proposal (rather than trying to turn anteaya's proposal into theirs20:54
jeblairttx: cool, so i think we can refine the second part, and it sounds like it's getting pretty miniminal20:54
markmcmarkmcclain, do you feel the issues in the previous election were bad enough to warrant formal procedures to redress?20:54
ttxand then compare the two when they are deemed ready20:54
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markmcmarkmcclain, serious question20:54
sdagueso everyone here does. But at the same time I don't think anyone here would have violated that spirit anyway. I guess the question is do we feel those are shared values in the community already?20:55
anteayaI would have liked to have been allowed to investigate them20:55
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markmcclainmarkmc: in some respects yes, but it's hard to formally address anything since we didn't have any written policy20:55
jeblairi just want one that solves the communication problem without establishing a huge amount of extra red tape (committees or required email footers)20:55
zanebI thought anteaya's draft was pretty good right up to the last bit about breaching the ideals being equivalent to breaching the code of conduct20:55
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anteayaI wasn't, I had no report filed20:55
zaneb'we have these ideals' <- good20:55
jeblairi think it's ultimately up to the foundation to decide whether the CoC has been violated20:55
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zaneb'you really don't want to breach the foundation's CoC' <- good20:55
markmcclainjeblair: +120:55
jeblairso our proposals should not try to overstep that20:56
ttxjeblair: it is yes20:56
anteayaI was told that we needed a process for someone to be willing to file a report20:56
zanebideals == CoC <- dangerous20:56
anteayaI just need to ensure we have what is required for people to file20:56
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jeblairanteaya: i think we should leave that up to the foundation20:56
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jeblairanteaya: if there is feedback that the coc is unclear on reporting instructions20:57
jeblairanteaya: we should ask them to fix that20:57
ttxOK, I think we need to let that overflow to another meeting. Please each party refine your proposals, but separately20:57
anteayaI can agree with that20:57
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sdaguedo we have a person in the foundation that we think is willing to take this up.20:57
devanandait sounds like the question is: do we need a formal process for redress? or just better communication of expectations while allowing the commmunity to self-correct?20:57
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ttxand we can continue discussing it when we ahve two proposals to choose from20:57
anteayaI talked with Jonathan today20:57
zehiclezaneb, there is a foundation ombudsperson (right now it's Jonathan B)20:57
eglynnttx: fair enough, will do20:57
anteayaI left a comment in my patch20:57
sdagueI get uncomfortable with "that's the foundations responsibility" without knowing they think it is as well20:57
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anteayasdague: me too20:57
dhellmannsdague: +120:58
devanandattx: +1 for gerrit reviews for both20:58
ttxOK, moving on quickly20:58
ttx#topic Add translation support requirement20:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Add translation support requirement (Meeting topic: tc)"20:58
zehicledevananda, the board also has this in process via the transparency committee (just so people know there's a Board action related to this discussion)20:58
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/9787220:58
ttxI think two good points were raised -- scope of translation and absence of testing20:58
markmcalso think about a potential future where we don't all trust the foundation so much20:58
ttxWhich make this a bit... early20:58
markmccould happen20:58
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ttxI agree with markmc that deployer-facing messages may be considered out of policy scope20:58
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ttxI agree with sdague that without testing, it will (as it has in the past) stopped working without anyone knowing20:59
ttxWe generally discover how broken it is post-release, which is an embarassment.20:59
devanandattx: i recall a discussion last year as to whether or not we should translate certain strings20:59
ttxright20:59
devanandattx: because of difficulty in gogole searching to find help20:59
devanandai'd like tos ee that clarified before we make any policy on it20:59
devanandamaybe it was and I missed it20:59
ttxwe still ahven't a good story there, so personally I think this requirement is a bit early20:59
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dhellmannthe whether or not to do it question was settled by the translation team who is doing the work, and their users, and I am happy to leave it in their hands20:59
dhellmann(some) users want translated log files and the tools now support it21:00
ttxok, let's continue the discussion on the review :)21:00
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ttx#topic Modify Images mission to fit Artifact Repository21:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "Modify Images mission to fit Artifact Repository (Meeting topic: tc)"21:00
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/9800221:00
ttxStill needs some work, so I'll pass21:00
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ttxwe can discuss it next week21:00
markmcdhellmann, yeah I couldn't find the translations team decision on that21:00
ttx#topic Housekeeping items21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Housekeeping items (Meeting topic: tc)"21:01
ttx* Adds openstack/training-guides repo to Documentation program (https://review.openstack.org/99408)21:01
ttx* Adds the openstack/security-guide repo to the Documentation program (https://review.openstack.org/99171)21:01
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ttxBoth will be approved after the meeting unless someone -1s21:01
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ttx#topic Open discussion21:01
annegentlettx: great!21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"21:01
ttxand we are out of time21:01
ttxThanks everyone!21:01
russellbjust a quick thanks to those that attend weekly from time zones where this isn't a good time21:01
russellbthanks!21:01
ttx#endmeeting21:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 17 21:02:04 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-06-17-20.03.html21:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-06-17-20.03.txt21:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-06-17-20.03.log.html21:02
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markmcclainrussellb:  ++21:02
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mikalDoes that mean I can go back to bed now?21:02
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dolphmmikal: no21:02
eglynnmikal: nope, more torture for you! :)21:02
mikalDammit21:02
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ttxdhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, kmestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ?21:03
jogozehicle: I have a defcore question for you, can we chat in #openstack-dev21:03
eglynno/21:03
dhellmanno/21:03
ttxmikal: should be quick21:03
dolphmo/21:03
notmynamehere21:03
zanebo/21:03
* lcheng for david-lyle21:03
ttx#startmeeting project21:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 17 21:03:37 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)"21:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'project'21:03
markwasho/21:03
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ttxlcheng: o/21:03
ttxAgenda for today is available at:21:03
mesteryo/21:03
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting21:03
devanandao/21:03
ttxNo specific topic, so it should be REALLY quick.21:04
ttx#topic News from the 1:1 sync points21:04
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*** openstack changes topic to "News from the 1:1 sync points (Meeting topic: project)"21:04
ttxSee log at:21:04
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