Tuesday, 2014-07-01

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yamahata#startmeeting servicevm-device-manager05:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  1 05:03:13 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.05:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.05:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager'05:03
yamahataIs bob here?05:03
yamahataLet's give him a minute05:03
s3wongyamahata: doesn't look like he is online05:03
yamahataThis week  natarajk is also absent.05:04
yamahataHe'll catch up with the log05:05
yamahataOkay let's start anyway.05:05
yamahata#topic Announcement05:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcement (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:06
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yamahataThe starckforge repo for servicevm has been created.05:06
yamahataThus gerrit review system can be used for our review.05:06
yamahata#link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/tacker/ tacker repo05:07
yamahata#link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/tacker-specs/ tacker-specs repo05:07
yamahata#link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/python-tackerclient/ python-tackerclient repo05:07
yamahataSo the group in gerrit system is also created. Please let me know privately your account name/email address to add tacker-core tacker-specs-core05:08
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s3wongyamahata: OK05:09
yamahata#action candidate for core please let me know privately your account/mail address of gerrit.05:09
yamahata#action yamahata add core members to gerrit system05:09
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yamahataNow I've created a sort of working tacker server/client in github.05:10
s3wongyamahata: I think bobmel could be Bob05:10
yamahata#action yamahata push the current code to review system.05:10
bobmelHi all. This is Bob.05:10
yamahatabobmel: Hi. glad to see you.05:10
s3wongbobmel: how many handles do you have :-) ?05:11
bobmels3wong: too many... :-)05:11
yamahatabobmel: could you please let me know privately your account/email address of the gerrit system later.05:12
bobmelyamahata: Sure05:12
yamahataThe a sort of working code is based on Neutron. So the it includes "uninteresting" code.05:12
yamahataI think we can merge those patches at first.05:13
yamahataFor example deleting unnecessary Neutron specific files.05:13
yamahatarenaming neutron -> tacker05:13
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yamahataAfter merging tedious patches,  we can start actual api discussion and patch review.05:14
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yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103724/   API review patch05:14
s3wongyamahata: bobmel: have you guys thought about merging your pieces (serviceVM lifecycle mgmt / mgmt interface & device manager) together? Is that one of the goals?05:15
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yamahatas3wong:  the current goal is to reach consensus with API, then consolidate the existing three or four implementations.05:16
s3wongyamahata: OK05:17
bobmels3wong, yamahata: Yes that makes sense.05:17
yamahataI think bobmem and I have close idea for API. So minor adjustment would suffice.05:18
yamahataBut I had a looked at DNRM document, their api is a different. So we needs discussion.05:19
yamahataUnfortunately today we don't have Karthik.05:19
s3wongthe interceptor component probably won't have too many fans in Neutron community05:19
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yamahatas3wong: agree.05:20
yamahataDNRM server has the feature of pooling VM.05:20
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yamahataI'm not sure where pooling vm live.05:21
yamahatawhere the feature of pooling vm should live.05:21
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yamahatawe can continue concrete discussion with gerrit.05:22
s3wongabout API? Or the DNRM thing?05:23
yamahata#topic incubation process05:23
*** openstack changes topic to "incubation process (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:23
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x1cf4cd0>05:23
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yamahatas3wong: both. I think DNRM guys want to join the API discussion.05:23
yamahataProbably API needs modification based on their input05:24
yamahata#topic servicevm spec/code review05:24
*** openstack changes topic to "servicevm spec/code review (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:24
s3wongyamahata: we do have to evaluate as a community which pieces, if any. of DNRM would make sense to integrate05:24
s3wong(go on to the next topic, please. No need to undo :-) )05:25
yamahatas3wong: Agree05:25
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yamahataI need to have a closer look at their code.05:25
s3wongyamahata: +105:26
yamahataanything else with spec/code review?05:26
yamahata#action everyone have a closer look at DNRM code05:26
s3wongbobmel is now bmelande :-)05:26
yamahata#action yamahata have a closer look at DNRM core more.05:26
yamahataLast week One of my action item is to create l3 plugin.05:27
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yamahataI haven't done it yet. After pushing the tacker code for review, I'll create the blueprint.05:28
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yamahata#action yamahata create a blueprint for reference l3-plugin with servicevm05:28
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yamahata#topic Open Discussion05:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:29
yamahataOkay do we have anything to discuss?05:29
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s3wongall good for me05:30
yamahataIt seems one hour time slot is too long.05:30
yamahataHow about 30min slots from the next time?05:31
s3wongyamahata: OK, either that or biweekly05:31
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yamahatas3wong: Surely biweek is also an option.05:32
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bmelandeyamahata, s3wong: I think I prefer weekly but potentially make it shorter.05:32
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s3wongbmelande: OK. Let's go with yamahata 's original suggestion of 30 mins then05:32
yamahata#agreed 30min weekly meeting05:32
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bmelandeRegarding API: Some notifications from device manager to its "customers" could be useful05:33
bmelandeFor example: to let a service plugin know that a VM is discovered to be "dead"05:34
yamahatabmelande: interesting. Could you be more specific? Probably in gerrit review part.05:34
bmelandeYes I'll comment to document.05:34
s3wongbmelande: exception handling?05:34
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bmelandes3wong: Well possibly it could be done like that. Not sure.05:35
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s3wongbmelande: cool, let's comment on it on gerrit review (API)05:36
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bmelandeIn our impl. the device manager does some basic checks of VM health. Ok, I'll make a comment there.05:37
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yamahataany other issues?05:37
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s3wongno, will review API doc05:38
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yamahatathank you. see you next week05:38
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"05:38
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  1 05:38:54 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)05:38
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-01-05.03.html05:38
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-01-05.03.txt05:38
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-01-05.03.log.html05:38
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sc68cal#startmeeting neutron_ipv614:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  1 14:00:19 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6'14:00
sc68calHello all14:00
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sc68calthanks for joining everyone :)14:02
sc68cal#topic blueprints14:02
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)"14:02
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sc68calI think currently our highest priority is the radvd spec14:02
sc68cal#link https://review.openstack.org/101306 radvd spec14:03
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HenryGTime to start nagging cores for +2?14:03
aveigaI'd say so, since it's had a few days to languish14:04
sc68calPossibly. I did ask for cores to take a look in yesterday's neutron meeting14:04
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HenryGmarkmcclain: ^^ :)14:04
markmcclainHenryG: it's in my morning queue14:05
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dane_leblancMark can look at it during his next flight.14:05
HenryGmarkmcclain: cool, thanks!14:06
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markmcclaindane_leblanc: haha… I get a whole 6 days free of travel :)14:06
sc68caldane_leblanc: I also brought up your multi prefix bp during the main meeting14:06
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dane_leblancsc68cal: Yes, thanks for the mention!14:06
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sc68calxuhanp: I know you have some stuff in flight too, I will bring it up at next week's meeting14:08
xuhanpsc68cal, thanks!14:08
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sc68calAny new BPs that we need to discuss?14:09
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sc68cal#topic code reviews14:10
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sc68calLooks like baoli is not here14:11
sc68calfor https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102648/14:11
BrianB_baoli is on pto14:11
HenryGRobert (baoli) is out for a few days14:12
HenryGI am working on unit tests for his radvd change14:12
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HenryGI am also working with him on shuffling the code around a bit (see the review comments)14:12
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sc68calCool. Do you think J-2 is still a realistic timeline? since baoli is now PTO14:14
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HenryGThe code is pretty straightforward and we have not hit any surprises.14:14
HenryGWhat is the J-2 date again?14:14
BrianB_yes for J214:14
mestery#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Juno_Release_Schedule14:15
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mesteryHenryG: July 2414:15
sc68calah there we go :)14:15
* mestery goes back to lurking.14:15
HenryGThat should be no problem.14:15
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sc68calCool. Any other code reviews that need to be discussed?14:16
xuhanpbaoli gave a -1 to one of my reviews which confused me. But I will talk to him when he's back14:17
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sc68calxuhanp: link?14:18
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* markmcclain adds +2 to radvd spec14:19
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* HenryG thanks markmcclain 14:20
sc68calxuhanp: yeah not sure about his -1. I had a similar concern but checked14:20
sc68calhence my +114:20
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HenryGxuhanp: sc68cal: I agree that baoli's comment is not applicable. I'll let him know.14:21
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xuhanpHenryG, thanks!14:21
sc68calAny other reviews?14:23
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markmcclainsc68cal, HenryG: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101306/14:23
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HenryGmarkmcclain: mestery: Thanks!!14:24
sc68calmarkmcclain: mestery: awesome14:24
mesteryHenryG sc68cal: yw :)14:24
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sc68cal#topic bugs14:25
*** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)"14:25
sc68cal#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bugs?field.tag=ipv6 bugs tagged ipv614:26
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sc68calI think the biggest bug we need to tackle is #123333914:27
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1233339 in neutron "bump dhcp.Dnsmasq.MINIMUM_VERSION" [Medium,Triaged]14:27
sc68calSince that is going to be part of xuhanp's work14:27
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sc68calI don't know what we need to do to alert packagers that they need more recent versions of dnsmasq14:28
xuhanpsc68cal, yep. We are working on the dnsmasq stateless/stateful code.14:28
xuhanpsc68cal, we don't have a requirement on dnsmasq version today in requirement file, right?14:28
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sc68calno, since requirements is only for python packages I believe14:29
* sc68cal tries to remember the handle of the gentleman that does debian packaging14:29
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sc68calok well worst case we'll need to fire off something to the openstack-dev list as a heads up14:30
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xuhanpsc68cal, I guess we will need to be careful with the error from dnsmasq and prompt some clues by error message?14:30
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sc68calIf I recall, I think it has a pretty detailed error message when the version of dnsmasq is < MIN_VERSION14:30
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xuhanpsc68cal, ok. we can do some test.14:31
sc68calYeah, I could just push a patch to bump MIN_VERSION to 2.63 and see what explodes :)14:32
xuhanpsc68cal, sounds good14:32
HenryGYup, that is about all neutron can do, plus documentation.14:33
HenryGSo, put DocImpact in the commit message.14:33
sc68calxuhanp: is 2.63 enough for what you guys are doing or do we want a more recent version14:33
sc68calHenryG: good idea!14:33
xuhanpsc68cal, let me confirm that and get back to you.14:33
xuhanpI need to check my dev machine14:34
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sc68calAny other bugs to discuss?14:35
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sc68cal#topic open discussion14:36
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)"14:36
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BrianB_markmcclain: Any update on new API def14:38
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sc68calLooks like he's away14:43
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sc68calIf there is no further items to discuss, I will see everyone next week!14:43
sc68cal*there are14:44
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"14:45
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  1 14:45:05 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:45
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-07-01-14.00.html14:45
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-07-01-14.00.txt14:45
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-07-01-14.00.log.html14:45
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n0ano#startmeeting gantt15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  1 15:00:46 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'gantt'15:00
n0anoanyone here to talk abou tthe scheduler?15:01
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n0anohmm, small group today (maybe we can get lots done :-)15:02
* n0ano watches the solar panels being install on my roof15:02
ericfrizHi all15:02
n0ano#topic code forklift15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "code forklift (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:02
* bauzas also writes slides at the same time :)15:02
schwickeI'm new here.15:02
n0anoericfriz, LisaZangrando nice you can make it, we'll get to you soon15:03
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n0anoschwicke, NP, I promise we don't bite :-)15:03
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bauzasn0ano: don't we ? :)15:03
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schwicken0ano: hoping for the best :)15:03
LisaZangrandook thanks15:03
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n0anobauzas, I thought we were good on the client and then john had some issues, do they look doable?15:04
bauzasn0ano: well, we discussed today with johnthetubaguy15:04
bauzasn0ano: about how we should do the steps to Gantt15:04
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bauzasn0ano: because he thought about possible issues and how we should do that15:04
bauzasn0ano: long story short, there is an etherpad15:04
yjiang5bauzas: I need check IRC history to see your discussion,right?15:04
johnthetubaguyn0ano: hey, in my team planning meeting, but do shout at me if you want some answers15:05
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bauzas#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gantt-nova-compute_nodes15:05
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bauzasso the main problem is:15:05
bauzaswhat should we do with ComputeNode table ?15:05
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bauzasshould it be a Scheduler table or a Nova table ?15:06
bauzasas per the last findings, johnthetubaguy is thinking to leave ComputeNode in Noa15:06
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bauzasand only do updates in the client15:06
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yjiang5bauzas: how often will we access the compute table?15:06
n0anofor compatibility reasons I think it should probably stay with nova for now, maybe in the future it can be moved into gantt15:06
bauzasn0ano: so that means we go to keep the computenodes table15:07
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johnthetubaguyn0ano: gantt will need its own table, with a different structure, and that seems fine15:07
bauzasok, please all review https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gantt-nova-compute_nodes and make comments if any15:07
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johnthetubaguyPCI stats need the ComputeNode table at the moment, for the PCI devices stuff, and I recon that means it has to say in Nova for the medium term15:08
yjiang5bauzas: n0ano: Don't this should be compute_table object scope? If everything is kepts in compute_node object, then no matter how we do the implementation, we will simply change the compute_node object?15:08
bauzasif we all agree to keep compute_nodes, I'll backport johnthetubaguy's change into the 82778 patch15:08
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yjiang5johnthetubaguy: you mean PCI stats or PCI dev tracker?15:08
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bauzaswell, to be precise, I already made that, I need to restore a previous patchset15:09
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n0anounfortunately, I think johnthetubaguy is right and we should stay that way for now15:09
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yjiang5johnthetubaguy: why don''t we hide all these thing behind the compute node object?15:09
n0anobauzas, then why did you change originally, won't the same objections apply?15:09
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bauzasok, my main concern is keeping the roadmap, so I'll go with these changes for https://review.openstack.org/#/c/8277815:10
bauzasn0ano: the problem is that there were no clear consensus15:10
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bauzasn0ano: so I made lots of proposals over here15:10
bauzasn0ano: now, I'll stick with the proposal15:10
bauzasn0ano: there is another side effect to it15:11
bauzasjohnthetubaguy and I agreed that we should possibly do the fork once that patch get merged15:11
n0anothe PCI issue is a strong argument (to me anyway) so I'd just say nova owns the table is the new concensus and we try and make it work15:11
bauzasand then work on Gantt directly15:11
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bauzasbut that requires some code freeze in Nova15:11
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bauzasjohnthetubaguy: you agree ?15:12
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yjiang5n0ano: if we will remove the compute table out of nova, we can change PCI for it also.15:12
bauzasjohnthetubaguy: I mean, we take your scenario, go ahead, do the split, work on Gantt for feature parity15:12
n0anoyjiang5, I's say that's something we do later, after we do the split into gantt15:12
n0anobauzas, +115:12
bauzasjohnthetubaguy: that means that Nova will possibly have some code freeze15:13
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bauzasjohnthetubaguy: and *that* is a big turn in mind15:13
toan-tranbauzas: +1, who knows how long it takes to finish it15:13
n0anobauzas, not necessarily code freeze, we just have to back port changes from nova to gantt after the s;lit15:14
bauzasbecause the idea was to do some pre-work on sched-db https://review.openstack.org/8989315:14
bauzasbut johnthetubaguy got -1 to it15:14
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bauzasn0ano: my only worries go about the level of backports needed15:14
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bauzasn0ano: and the idea was to do the steps *before* to prevent that backports15:15
n0anobauzas, a concern but I think it's doable, the steps we are doing reduce the number of backports needed rather than eliminate them15:15
bauzasthe main problem is about filtering on aggregates and instances15:15
bauzasok so https://review.openstack.org/82778 is the top prio and then we split15:16
bauzasn0ano: we need to think about all the steps for stepping up a CI, etc.15:16
toan-trann0ano: some of the mechnism will need to change, like aggregates, these will prevent some nova patches into gantt15:16
bauzasan API and a client :)15:16
bauzastoan-tran: there are some blueprints for porting the aggs stats to sched using extensible RT15:17
bauzastoan-tran: that would avoid the sched to call the Nova API for it15:17
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bauzastoan-tran: which is good15:17
toan-tranbauzas: just an example, but thanks for the info :)15:17
bauzastoan-tran: but until that, Gantt won't support aggregates filtering15:17
bauzasn0ano: still happy with that ?15:18
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toan-tranmy point is since we don't even have all the changes sorted out, there are risks that some new patches cannot be backported to gantt15:18
n0anobauzas, works for me, just means we'll have some feature parity work still for gantt15:18
bauzaswe can possibly vote on it ?15:18
bauzasgive me chair on the meeting, will arrange a vote15:18
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bauzas#chair bauzas15:19
n0ano#chair bauzas15:19
openstackCurrent chairs: bauzas n0ano15:19
bauzas#help vote15:19
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n0anodo you need anything from me, you have the chair15:20
bauzas#vote Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity with nova-scheduler ?15:20
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bauzasthe bot is unhappy15:20
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n0anowell, +1 from me, no matter what the bot is doing15:21
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toan-tran+1 for me too15:21
bauzas#startvote Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity with nova-scheduler ?15:22
openstackBegin voting on: Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity with nova-scheduler ? Valid vote options are Yes, No.15:22
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.15:22
mspreitzbauzas: you mean Gantt not feature parity at first, but will be later?15:22
bauzasdammit, forgot the good tag :)15:22
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Help object at 0x2a27910>15:22
bauzas#vote Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity at first with nova-scheduler ?15:22
n0anomspreitz, yes, that is the plan15:22
bauzas#startvote Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity at first with nova-scheduler ?15:22
openstackAlready voting on 'Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity with nova-scheduler '15:22
openstackVoted on "Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity with nova-scheduler ?" Results are15:23
bauzas#startvote Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity at first with nova-scheduler ?15:23
openstackBegin voting on: Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity at first with nova-scheduler ? Valid vote options are Yes, No.15:23
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.15:23
bauzas#vote yes15:23
yjiang5#vote No15:23
n0ano#vote yes15:23
toan-tran#vote yes15:23
toan-tran#vote Yes15:23
* bauzas eventually found out how to setup a vote...15:23
bauzasmspreitz: ?15:24
mspreitznot sure, I  came in late, I think I will abstain15:24
openstackVoted on "Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity at first with nova-scheduler ?" Results are15:24
bauzasanyway, we have a majority over here15:24
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yjiang5n0ano: bauzas: need leave now. talk to you guys later.15:24
bauzassure, thanks yjiang515:25
n0anobot is weird but my count was 3-1 so yes wins15:25
yjiang5bauzas: bye.15:25
n0anoyjiang5, later15:25
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n0anobauzas, so, you have clear direction for now?15:25
bauzas#action bauzas to deliver a new patchset for sched-lib based on keeping ComputeNode in Nova15:25
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bauzasn0ano: yup15:26
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n0anocool, let's move on then15:26
n0ano#topic Fair Share scheduler15:26
bauzasn0ano: we need to sync up next week to see what to do with the split itself15:26
*** openstack changes topic to "Fair Share scheduler (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:26
n0anoericfriz, you still here?15:26
ericfrizyes, i'm here!15:26
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LisaZangrandome too15:27
n0anoso, I hope everyone read ericfriz email about his fair share scheduler idea15:27
toan-tranme too15:27
n0anothe idea looks interesting, I'm curious is this just a new filter or are you changing the scheduler itself?15:27
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bauzasericfriz: could you just summarize your idea ?15:29
ericfrizIt's not a filter, but it's a change to the scheduler algorithm15:29
LisaZangrandoplease take a look to the slide #1215:30
toan-tranLisaZangrando: can you provide the link here?15:30
schwickeericfriz: if I got it right, you are using the scheduler from slurm, correct ?15:30
LisaZangrandothe schema show the new architecture15:30
bauzas#link https://github.com/CloudPadovana/openstack-fairshare-scheduler15:30
ericfrizyes, SLURM's Priority MultiFactor15:31
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bauzasit appears to me that your proposal is really close to what Blazar already does :)15:31
LisaZangrandono, the scheduler implements the same scheduling algorithm og slurm15:31
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LisaZangrandono, the scheduler implements the same scheduling algorithm of slurm15:31
bauzasie. you have a reservation and the system will handle it15:31
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bauzas#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blazar15:33
LisaZangrandowhich kind of reservation?15:33
mspreitzericfriz: does a user request in your design have a start time and/or end time or duration?15:33
bauzasvirtual instances or physical compute_node15:33
mspreitzLisaZangrando: you mean slide #12 of https://agenda.infn.it/getFile.py/access?contribId=17&sessionId=3&resId=0&materialId=slides&confId=7915 ?15:34
toan-tranLisaZangrando: I quick scanned your docment15:35
toan-tranand get the feeling that you want to sorted users' requests based on priority15:35
ericfrizmspreitz: user request has no duration when it's queued15:35
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toan-tranbut users' requests are asynchronized15:35
jaypipes#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103598/ <-- totally different way of approaching the scheduler. Just for kicks and giggles.15:35
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toan-tranyou're assuming that there are not enough resources for current requests? so that they have to wait in a queue?15:36
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ericfriztoan-tran: yes, it's.15:36
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toan-tranericfriz: as you said, current nova scheduler does handle requests FIFO15:37
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toan-transo I think your patch targets nova-scheduler Manager than nova-scheduler Scheduler  :)15:37
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bauzastoan-tran: I just thought about Blazar because it seems the whole idea is to say "as a user, I want to start an instance but I want to guaranttee that I'll have enough resource for it"15:39
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bauzasso I'll wait until all the conditions are met15:39
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bauzasthat's what I call a lease15:39
toan-tranbauzas: yes, but Blazar focuses on time condition15:39
bauzasie. a strong contract in between the user and the system15:39
bauzastoan-tran: not exactly15:40
toan-tranhere they're talking a bout priority, who gets the resources first15:40
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* johnthetubaguy is free to talk if its useful later in the meeting15:40
bauzastoan-tran: the Blazar lease is about granting resources for a certain amount of time15:40
bauzasjohnthetubaguy: nah we agreed on your approach15:40
bauzasjohnthetubaguy: I'll do a new patchset tomorrow so you'll review it15:41
johnthetubaguybauzas: OK15:41
LisaZangrandobriefly, To all user requests will be assigned a priority value calculated by considering the share allocated to the user by the administrator and the evaluation of the effective resource usage consumed in the recent past. All requests will be inserted in a priority queue, and processed in parallel by a configurable pool of workers without interfering with the priority order.15:41
schwickeI think the proposal is useful in situations where resources are limited and where the provider has an interest in getting it's resources used all the time.15:41
schwickenot being an expert on blazar but to me it seems to address a different use case15:42
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bauzasLisaZangrando: by saying "shares", you mean quotas ?15:43
toan-transchwicke: well if user does not care much on time constraint so yes tou're right15:43
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LisaZangrandobauzas: yes15:43
schwicketoan-tran: certainly correct15:43
* n0ano wishes bauzas would quit stealing my questions :-)15:44
LisaZangrandobauzas: yes, share in batch system terminology15:44
n0anoLisaZangrando, then what is a quota, CPU usage, mem usage, disk usage?15:44
toan-trann0ano: quicker next time! otherwise you'll loose15:44
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n0anotoan-tran, age is slowing down my fingers15:45
schwicken0ano: quotas on those are ceilings.15:45
schwickeThey define the maximum of what a user can have I'd say, right, Lisa ?15:45
bauzasschwicke: that's what we call quotas in OpenStack :)15:46
mspreitzI'm a little confused here, it looks like the FairShare design is about a priority queue to hand out things sooner or later, not limit usage15:46
bauzasmspreitz: +115:46
toan-tranmspreitz: +115:46
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LisaZangrandoit is a % of resource assigend to a project/user15:46
bauzasand the "sooner or later" sounds familiar to me...15:46
mspreitzso it's about "share" not "quota"15:46
toan-tranplease correct me if I'm wrong15:47
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toan-tranFaireShare targets a situation in which there is not enough resources for everbody15:47
n0anoLisaZangrando, implication is that your cahnges will affect more than just the scheduler, you have to setup mechanism for specifying and allocating these shares15:47
toan-transo the scheduler hes to decide who to give resoures to, and how much15:47
toan-trannothing to do with quota  , right ?15:47
johnthetubaguyis there a good description of the use cases for the fairshare scheduler anywhere?15:48
bauzasjohnthetubaguy: https://agenda.infn.it/getFile.py/access?contribId=17&sessionId=3&resId=0&materialId=slides&confId=791515:48
LisaZangrandotoan-tran: correct15:48
mspreitzbauzas: those slides do not have use case in them15:49
mspreitzbauzas: my mistake15:49
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mspreitzthere is text about use case, it is pretty generic15:49
mspreitzpage 16 and 1715:50
johnthetubaguymspreitz: +115:50
johnthetubaguyI don't see what problem it is trying to solve15:50
johnthetubaguyI am sure there is one, I just don't see it right now15:50
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mspreitzpage 16 and 17 are really statements of technology goals, not illustrations of usage15:50
ericfrizThe FairShareScheduler is used in our Openstack installation, named "Cloud Padovana"15:51
johnthetubaguyit talks about queuing the requests of users, there is generally never a backlog, so it doesn't matter about the order, you just place things when you get the request, so there much be something bigger that is required here15:51
bauzasso, could we consider to ask you to provide some information for next week ?15:51
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johnthetubaguyericfriz: so are you trying to share resources between users, and evict people who are using too many resources?15:52
n0anolooks like a clear definition of the use cases/problems you are solving would be nice to have15:52
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ericfrizjohnthetubaguy: yes, that is an usecase15:53
mspreitzericfriz: tell us about the people using Cloud Padovana and what problems they would have if your solution were not in place15:53
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johnthetubaguyericfriz: OK, is quite a different "contract" with users to what nova offers, so we need a nice description of that ideally15:53
mspreitzericfriz: I did not notice anything about eviction15:53
n0anomspreitz, +115:54
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ericfrizmspreitz: scientific teams. when there are not more resources, the user requests fail.15:54
johnthetubaguyI am assuming you want someone to have 10% of all resources, should they request them, and others can use that space if they are not using them, and so it boils down to "spot instance" style things, but I don't really see that described anywhere15:55
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bauzasI'm also thinking about something mentioned in the thread, deferred booting15:55
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mspreitzericfriz: what is the nature of these scientific jobs?  Can they tolerate allocation of some VMs now, a few more later, and a few more later?15:56
johnthetubaguyericfriz: it probably seems obvious with a grid computing hat, but doesn't fit too well into nova right now15:56
bauzasyou would probably require the Keystone trusts mechanism, hence my idea about blazar15:56
bauzasand what johnthetubaguy said still makes me thinking about Blazar...15:57
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LisaZangrandoThe "illusion" to have unlimited resources ready to be used and always available is one of the key concepts underlying the Cloud paradigm. Openstack refuses further requests if the resources are not available.15:57
bauzasBlazar == Climate, for the records15:57
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bauzasLisaZangrando: so you want to guaranttee them on a best-effort basis ?15:58
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LisaZangrandowe want to guarantee all requests are processed15:58
mspreitzLisaZangrando: Does this illusion include maybe being spontaneously evicted?15:58
johnthetubaguyLisaZangrando: well, sure, but we could make things a bit more "griddy" for highly utilised clouds, its just going to involve introducing new type of flavors, like "spot instances", extra instance above your quota, but they could get killed at any point15:58
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n0anobauzas, more like don't every fail a request, just pend it until it can be satisfied15:59
bauzaswe're running out of time, we need to conclude15:59
ericfrizBlazar uses time condition, FairshareScheduler has no time condition for extracting the user requests from the queue.15:59
* n0ano refers back to his last commen about stealing questions15:59
bauzasbut Blazar implements some best-effort mode where you define your contract :)15:59
n0anoindeed, it's the top of the hour so we'll have to conclude15:59
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toan-tranLisaZangrando: as a public cloud provider ( <== Cloudwatt ), I can tell you that we're trying our best to not be in the situation o fneeding FS16:00
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toan-tranbut I can see its value16:00
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schwickemaybe as an action item a compilation of use cases would be useful I think, circulate that and then review later ?16:00
n0anoI want to thank everyone, good discussion, I'd like to continue the fair share discussion next week, hopefully we've given you guys stuff to think about16:00
bauzasschwicke: +116:00
schwickecan that be action-itemed16:00
n0ano#action schwicke to come up with clear use cases for next weeks meeting16:01
toan-transo you should come up with a good usecase, and be careful not to get too much on grid's phylosophy16:01
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n0anotnx everyone16:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  1 16:01:20 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-01-15.00.html16:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-01-15.00.txt16:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-01-15.00.log.html16:01
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schwickewas hoping for lisa doing that actually :)16:01
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n0anoschwicke, note, if yor're the wrong person to come up with the use cases feel free to refer it to the appriate person16:02
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schwickeno problem :)16:02
n0anoLisaZangrando, looks like that action was really for you16:02
schwickeI'm happy to help on this actually :)16:02
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goodesis the swift meeting on Tuesday or Wednesdays?16:51
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notmynamegoodes: wednesdays at 1900utc16:54
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goodesnotmyname: thanks16:55
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boris-42Рш фдд17:08
boris-42Hi all17:08
boris-42#startmeeting Rally17:08
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  1 17:08:29 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:08
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:08
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:08
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'rally'17:08
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boris-42Okay let's just start discusssion17:10
boris-42#topic stress runner17:10
*** openstack changes topic to "stress runner (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:10
boris-42olkonami pls go on17:10
olkonamiI'll send new patchset with fixed comments in a few minutes17:11
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boris-42olkonami anything to discuss?17:11
olkonamiyes, my questions from rally chat17:12
olkonamiI think it's better to specify "max_failure_rate" in percents. It will be more clear and it is done so in sla patch. Are you agree? Also about this parameter name, it is better to indicate that it is associated with a stop and that it is different from sla "max_failure_percent". May be something like "stop_failure_percent", what do you think?17:12
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boris-42olkonami stop_on_failure_percent17:14
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boris-42olkonami probably )17:14
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boris-42olkonami btw17:15
boris-42olkonami ah no17:15
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boris-42olkonami so how user will setup?17:16
boris-42olkonami 0.10 ?17:16
boris-42olkonami or "10"17:16
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boris-42olkonami or "10%" ?17:16
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olkonamiI think 1017:16
olkonamiwill be more clear17:16
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boris-42olkonami I don't have strong opinion on that17:17
boris-42olkonami so I'll be ok with both17:17
olkonamithat it is percents shold be specified in parameter name17:17
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olkonamior what do you mean?17:17
boris-42olkonami ok17:17
boris-42olkonami hm no I am ok with 1017:18
boris-42olkonami and stop_on_failure_precent: x17:18
boris-42Okay so let's move17:18
boris-42#topic RPS runner17:18
*** openstack changes topic to "RPS runner (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:18
boris-42oanufriev hey there17:19
boris-42oanufriev any update?17:19
oanufrievi sent the patch for review and got -1.17:19
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oanufrievhave a question about one comment17:20
oanufrievhere it is - the second-one17:20
oanufrievshould i reuse implementation from glance?17:21
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boris-42oanufriev ?17:22
boris-42oanufriev what implementation?17:22
oanufrievimplementation of rate limitting of requests17:23
boris-42oanufriev I am not sure17:23
boris-42oanufriev actually I am sure that we shouldn't use this17:23
boris-42oanufriev we don't need speed limit17:23
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oanufrievok. got it17:24
boris-42oanufriev olkonami I will try to find time to review your patches17:24
boris-42oanufriev olkonami sorry currently I am quite busy with osprofiler17:24
boris-42#topic SLA17:24
*** openstack changes topic to "SLA (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:24
boris-42rediskin so is it finish finally?17:24
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rediskinboris-42: this patch got +2, so i think it quite ready17:25
boris-42rediskin okay I'll take a look17:25
boris-42rediskin what about functional tests ?17:25
boris-42#topic func tests17:25
*** openstack changes topic to "func tests (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:25
rediskinbut there is a lots of criteria to be added17:25
boris-42rediskin for example?17:26
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rediskinonly two criteria done, and i believe it is not enough17:26
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rediskinpeople will want more criterio =)17:27
boris-42rediskin any examples?17:27
rediskinmaximum time per specific atomic action17:27
boris-42rediskin ouh ok17:27
boris-42rediskin yep17:27
boris-42rediskin zoo okay we will work on that17:27
boris-42rediskin so what about function tests in rally-cli job?17:27
rediskinit finally works17:28
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boris-42rediskin so we can result script that made k4no17:28
rediskinyou can see results in comments for this patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102899/17:28
boris-42rediskin to display results btw17:28
rediskinjob called check-rally-dsvm-cli17:29
boris-42rediskin where is HTML??17:29
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rediskinno html yet17:29
boris-42rediskin so you can rest from tempest in future17:30
rediskini focused around helper methods for tests17:30
rediskinand tests itself17:30
boris-42rediskin okay I will review it17:30
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boris-42#topic open discussion17:35
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:35
boris-42so do we have anything to discssu?17:35
boris-42discuss? )17:35
boris-42so seems like we can end it=)17:36
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rediskin-3k lines =)17:41
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:52
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  1 17:52:11 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:52
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-01-17.08.html17:52
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-01-17.08.txt17:52
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-01-17.08.log.html17:52
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dolphmayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, fmarco76, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:01
henrynashhi there18:01
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morganfainbergIt's that time of the week...18:01
kwsshello :)18:01
morganfainbergdolphm, was just about to ping folks :)18:01
dolphmmorganfainberg: was lunching!18:01
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dolphmyay, we have an agenda item!18:02
morganfainbergdolphm, i was fighting with mox, i missed breakfast :(18:02
topoldolphm, food truck day?18:02
bknudsonI think it's canada day18:02
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dolphmtopol: yes, bknudson: philly cheesesteak18:02
gyeeU.S.A, U.S.A.18:02
bknudsonyou could have some canadian food to celebrate18:02
dolphmmorganfainberg: that's all mox is good for18:02
bknudsonit's also usa world cup day18:02
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morganfainbergdolphm, heat uses mox :(18:02
* lbragstad wonders what canadians eat18:02
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bknudsoncanadian bacon18:02
topollbragstad canadian bacon18:02
* gyee is gearing up for fubol18:02
bknudsonbut they call it back bacon18:03
morganfainbergbknudson, good point! game today18:03
topolbknudson jinx18:03
dolphmgame in 2 hours18:03
dolphm#startmeeting keystone18:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  1 18:03:27 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:03
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openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:03
dolphm#topic Update on oslo libraries18:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Update on oslo libraries (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:03
dolphmbknudson: o/18:03
bknudsonok, not a whole lot to say but the oslo team are starting to release libs18:03
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bknudsonunfortunately they release with an alpha release and then I can't add it to global requirements18:04
bknudsonthere was a note to the mailing list about this18:04
dolphmdoes that mean -incubator is dying?18:04
bknudsonI think there are some things that will be in -incubator still18:04
morganfainbergdolphm, yep.18:04
morganfainbergdolphm, slowly18:04
bknudsonand new stuff can go there18:04
morganfainbergbknudson, ++18:04
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bknudsonbut we'll have18:04
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bknudson- fixture moved to oslo.config (reviews out there)18:05
bknudson- oslo.i18n18:05
dolphmhad a conversation recently about a (potentially) a new oslo incubator module -- would that just become it's own lib immediately instead?18:05
bknudson- oslo.utils18:05
lbragstad#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-July/039089.html18:05
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lbragstadbknudson: was that the right thread?18:05
bknudsonoslo.utils has the import function that we use for managers18:05
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bknudsonlbragstad: thanks, that's the link. I hadn't seen the latest update.18:06
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bknudsonso I think that's it for the update...18:06
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bknudsonkind of blocked by having to redo the entire infrastructure18:06
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bknudsondolphm: I think it depends on how stable you would consider the interface whether it goes to incubator18:07
bknudsonthere has been an oslo lib where they didn't go to incubator first (vmware)18:07
dolphmso, starting in incubator is still the default path18:07
bknudsondolphm: I think so.18:08
dolphm#topic open discussion18:08
morganfainbergdolphm, afaict the idea is move things out of incubator faster now that there is a set pathc.18:08
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:08
bknudsonbut we already have a lot less code in keystone due to loss of db.session18:08
morganfainbergdolphm, ooh i have something for open discussion!18:08
dolphmmorganfainberg: well it's open...18:09
morganfainberg2 things18:09
dolphmthere was a devstack review blocking it's release -- did that merge?18:09
morganfainbergas soon as it merges into dev stack  we can have a release (or well things): https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102326/18:09
morganfainbergit's approved and just fighting with gate18:09
bknudsonbtw, we already have a change to auth_token tests in keystoneclient that now needs to be made in keystonemiddleware,too18:09
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bknudsonI've got changes lined up to get the other projects using keystonemiddleware18:11
morganfainbergwell need to get that ported across18:11
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morganfainbergbknudson, ++18:11
dolphmcan't we just nuke tests in keystoneclient?18:11
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dolphmin favor of 'ensure the import from keystonemiddleware works'18:11
bknudsonwe don't import18:11
jamielennoxnot until we remove it i think18:11
morganfainbergdolphm, well, we can't do that import due to circular deps18:12
topolbknudson, VERY COOL!!!18:12
morganfainbergdolphm, we'd need to break apart ksc more than it is to do that18:12
jamielennoxstill don't want to break existing18:12
dolphmmorganfainberg: ah, forgot about that.18:12
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morganfainbergand we might make some people very sad if we broke apart and added a new package dep  (read: havana / icehouse deployments)18:13
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morganfainbergwe're going to need to hold middleware in ksc (at least an old version) probably until L releases.18:13
morganfainbergat the very least K.18:13
jamielennoxmorganfainberg: 2.018:14
morganfainbergbut it is mostly isolated from the rest of keystoneclient, so maintaining it wont be awful.18:14
bknudsonbtw, can we have a 1.0 package depend on a < 1.0 package?18:14
bknudsonseems odd to have a stable lib depend on an unstable one18:15
morganfainbergbknudson, i think we can.18:15
morganfainbergbknudson, there is a lot of python that is not 1.0 and is used.18:15
morganfainbergbknudson, we could release a 0.9 of middleware i guess and then make the next release of ksc 1.0? :P18:15
dolphmbknudson: what's the < 1.0 package?18:15
morganfainbergdolphm, keystoneclient18:15
dolphmi don't think it matters too much - we control both versioning schemes and know exactly how stable each are18:16
morganfainbergbknudson, iso8601 is 0.1.9, pbr is < 1.0, prettytable is < 1.0, netaddr is < 1.018:16
morganfainbergi think we should be fine18:16
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bknudsonok, works for me18:17
bknudsonso keystonemiddleware is just waiting for the devstack change18:17
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morganfainbergand then we can do a release [no blockers unless some change to the code is needed]18:17
bknudsonany reviews in progress that we should have in?18:17
* topol morganfainberg digging up the concrete example!18:17
morganfainbergbknudson, i think we said 1.0.0 will be a straight cut over18:18
bknudsonI thought there were some docs18:18
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morganfainbergwe got readme and contributing added18:18
morganfainbergalready merged18:18
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jamielennoxmorganfainberg: i was thinking (and been lazy about it) that we should take the opportunity to make everything in auth_token private18:19
jamielennoxeverything but the class defenition18:19
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morganfainbergdolphm, want to keep as is or make that changeover before release?18:19
morganfainbergdolphm, should be an easy/transparent change18:19
jamielennoxit'll make porting patches a bit harder between the two, but we've always had the problem that people want to override it where they shouldn't18:20
morganfainbergjamielennox, i'm ok with that, but i'll defer to dolphm18:20
dolphmi'm leaning towards that being a 1.1 thing :-/18:20
dstanekjamielennox: will that actually stop them?18:20
bknudsonmaybe that it's in keystonemiddleware now rather than in an API will convince people that they shouldn't override things18:20
morganfainbergbknudson, ++18:21
topoljamielennox, is that code someone would want to override?18:21
jamielennoxdstanek: probably not but it's a clear sign that if they do and we change it then it's there own fault18:21
bknudsonthere -> their18:21
jamielennoxdolphm: sure, but if we're calling something 1.0 we are declaring it stable and non-changing api - this wouldn't be18:21
topoldstanek, it may not stop them but it gives us coverage when they bitch18:21
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topoldstanek, been to that rodeo before18:21
jamielennoxtopol: i always thought no, but there's always someone doing odd things - it has come up before18:22
morganfainbergjamielennox, we have said in the past middleware internals are internal. we just ddin't do that before18:22
dolphmjamielennox: propose the patch, and let's talk in code review?18:22
morganfainbergprefix with _ that is18:22
jamielennoxwill do18:22
topoljamielennox, I agree.  not having the prefix means someone can do a lot of overrides and then when we change the API, their whole world breaks and they are angry18:22
morganfainbergok quick second topic, non-persistent tokens. wanted input from folks on this.18:24
morganfainberghttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/103416/ I proposed making [token]/driver [token]/persistence_driver18:24
morganfainbergthis is the start of a long chain that will deprecate token_api, merge most of that functionality into the token_provider_api18:24
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morganfainbergtoken_api will be kept around for a cycle (like we did with the proxy for assignment from identity)18:24
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morganfainbergpublic Rest APIs are not affected by this, and already reference the token_provider_api18:25
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morganfainbergany thoughts / concerns / "don't you dare, I have an affair with the token_api and can't let it go" ?18:25
dolphmmorganfainberg: i don't like the inconsistency with other 'driver' options :(18:26
morganfainbergthis all driving towards making persistence of tokens through as minimal an interface as possible, so we can drop it easil.18:26
* topol I broke up with token_api months ago\18:26
morganfainbergdolphm, i could move it to [token_persistence]/driver18:26
morganfainbergdolphm, instead18:26
dolphmmorganfainberg: all driver's are 'persistence' drivers, right?18:27
morganfainbergdolphm, i want to say no, but it was the exception to the rule and i don't remember which it is :P18:27
morganfainbergdolphm, so, yeah i need to agree, they are.18:27
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jamielennoxwill non-persistant tokens need a driver? all will it be indicated by driver=None18:28
morganfainbergjamielennox, ideally that would be the way you do it. UUID would override that choice.18:29
morganfainbergor i could just make that logic really part of the provider18:29
morganfainbergonly affects providers that implement persistence18:30
bknudsonso provider=pki persistence=None ?18:30
morganfainbergoh wait. no, revoke by id implies need for persistence18:30
bknudsonwhy does revoke by id imply persistence?18:30
morganfainbergthere is a matrix of "needs / doesn't need" persistence. and if it needs persistence, it is configurable18:30
bknudsonextract the issued time from the token18:30
morganfainbergbknudson, i want to revoke all tokens for user X, how do you know the IDs of that18:31
morganfainbergbknudson, you need to search through the token persistence driver to find all the token ids belonging to user X18:31
bknudsonoh, you're saying if you use revocation list you need persistent tokens18:31
morganfainbergbknudson, yep18:31
bknudsonmakes sense18:31
bknudsonbut if you're using revocation events then don't need persistent tokens18:31
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morganfainbergbknudson, and "revoke_by_id" is the option [probably should be renamed to "use_revocation_list")18:32
morganfainbergbknudson, using revocation events exclusively18:32
morganfainbergbknudson, some environments may need both (mix of middleware?)18:32
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bknudsonthis is going to require a novel in the sample config.18:33
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dolphmdisable the token (persistence) driver should implicitly disable revocation list, right?18:33
morganfainbergdolphm, unless you're using UUID tokens18:33
dolphmmorganfainberg: then you can't disable the persistence driver anyway18:34
morganfainbergdolphm, ++18:34
dolphmmorganfainberg: that should be a fatal exception on startup18:34
morganfainbergdolphm, yes18:34
boris-42morganfainberg dolphm btw guys I addressed comment about plugins for rally in keystone18:34
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boris-42morganfainberg dolphm  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/98836/18:34
boris-42seems like mergable=)18:34
morganfainbergdolphm, so yes, we could disable revocation_list based on disabling the persistence18:34
morganfainbergmight be the easiest way.18:35
topolmorganfainberg, definitely will need some good docs to keep this all straight18:35
morganfainbergtopol, yes we will18:35
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bknudsonthis is an opportunity for us to develop a gui18:35
morganfainbergbknudson, can it be written in java?18:36
dstanekmorganfainberg: go18:36
bknudsonmorganfainberg: that's the language we know!18:36
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topolmorganfainberg, Jquery and AngularJS?18:36
morganfainbergso does anyone have issues with deprecating token_api internal interface?18:37
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topolwho is gonna do the accesibility review for the GUI???18:37
morganfainbergregardless of the other mechanisms we bring along (persistence vs uuid vs revocation_list)18:37
bknudsonmorganfainberg: what's the problem with it?18:37
morganfainbergbknudson, trying to make it so anything that "stores" or "accesses" tokens from the persistence engine goes through one interface18:38
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morganfainbergand the provider_api duplicates a lot of functionality18:38
* topol topol refuses to build a java GUI ever again :-)18:38
morganfainbergi'd rather the provider_api be the interface for all of this stuff since it's providing the tokens, regardless of if we persist tokens to something or not18:38
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dolphmmorganfainberg: are we still supporting gui interfaces using visual basic to track tokens?18:39
bknudsonI'm surprised that gyee hasn't made a comment since he wrote it18:39
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bknudsonalthough he's probably painting himself red white and blue18:39
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morganfainbergdolphm, only because two people were typing on the keyboard at once to build that app18:39
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morganfainbergbknudson, we'd be keeping the token_provider_api, and just making token_api disappear in K (send a nice fat warning "HEY DONT USE THIS YOU HAVE ANOTHER OPTION") in J18:40
dolphmmorganfainberg: well then as long as the token provider API supports four hands on the keyboard at once i'm good18:40
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raildomorganfainberg: I was discussing at the meeting of hierarchical multitenancy about inherited roles, and we have two questions, this is a good moment to talk about that or i talk with you later?18:40
morganfainbergdolphm, sold18:41
topolthats a big keyboard18:41
morganfainbergok i'm out of things to talk about :)18:41
dolphmtopol: at least with a 10-kay18:41
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henrynashraildo: when is this meeting, btw, I’d like to attend18:41
topol#topic, restaurant options for the Hackathon?18:41
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morganfainbergtopol, # some taco stand that brad will be told to meet us at after 9pm? *duck*18:42
raildohenrynash: friday, 16:00 UTC18:42
henrynashraildo: thx18:42
topolmorganfainberg. I fixed that. Im buying drinks first night18:42
morganfainbergtopol, (don't hurt me, and still buy the first round of drinks018:42
lbragstadWhat-a-burger? I hear that it's magical18:43
morganfainbergraildo, we are in open discussion here, if this is somehting for the wider eystone audience / meeting, this is a good time to chat18:43
morganfainbergraildo, if not we can chat post meeting (and post lunch for me)18:43
jamielennoxi would love people to take a look at the series: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/9501518:44
raildomorganfainberg:  I was going to lunch now as well, I'll talk to you in #openstack-keystone later, ok?18:44
henrynashmorganfainberg, dstanek, ayoung: sorry to stalk, but if one of you could (hopefully_ give the final +2 to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10243018:44
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morganfainbergraildo, sounds great18:44
jamielennoxthey are what I most need for using keystoneclient with other clients18:44
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jamielennoxjust had to update the first for a few bknudson comments - but they were doc fixups, and the code itself has been unchnaged for a while18:45
bknudsonalso, somewhat related to jamielennox reviews -- I wrote up a spec for nova to use use v318:45
henrynashmorganfainberg, dstanek, ayoung: it’s teh 2nd of the 3 multi-backend uuids pacthes, just rebasing the 3rd now18:45
dstanekhenrynash: shoudl there be some foreign key relationships in that table? or are they left our on purpose?18:45
jamielennoxonce we have that chain in, a release would be useful18:45
dolphmjamielennox: i don't see how that patch has anything to do with the blueprint?18:46
morganfainberghenrynash, i am withholding a +2 on the one i did the sql work in18:46
morganfainberghenrynash, otherwise i will review others18:46
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henrynashdstanek: so right now the mapping table is in identity…so can’t fk to assignment18:46
bknudson#link nova spec for use identity v3: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103617/18:46
dolphmjamielennox: there's also an open bug that sounds a lot like the bp description... have a link to that?18:46
dolphmjamielennox: it was sort of recent18:46
henrynashmorganfainberg: ?18:46
jamielennoxdolphm: a standard way of loading session and auth plugins from conf18:46
jamielennoxdolphm: i don't know the one off the top of my head18:47
morganfainberghenrynash, i contributed code to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102430/4 so i am not +2ing it :)18:47
bknudsonjamielennox: so auth_token would change to have those config options?18:47
morganfainberghenrynash subsequent patches i will review.18:47
dolphmjamielennox: that ^ doesn't have anything to do with the bp: "so that we get the same config options everywhere. This also helps developers create the objects and means that config and CLI options will be automatically updated by changes in keystoneclient."18:47
jamielennoxbknudson: no, the options match auth_token18:47
dstanekhenrynash: ah, makes sense18:47
henrynashmorganfainberg: ah, sorry got ya!18:47
bknudsonjamielennox: and for example nova can use those options when it switches to use session for neutronclient?18:48
jamielennoxdolphm: the patch is about registering CONF options required for the session and being able to load one from those optoins18:48
jamielennoxdolphm: so same config options, and if we add things to register_ in ksc then we can use them in load_from_ without having to change every consumer18:49
dstanekhenrynash: what line 26 doing https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102430/9/keystone/common/sql/migrate_repo/versions/051_add_id_mapping.py ?18:49
jamielennoxbknudson: that's the intention18:49
bknudsonjamielennox: but the config setup doesn't have auth plugin stuff yet?18:49
jamielennoxbknudson: they are the reviews after that18:49
jamielennoxthey are a bit more difficult18:50
dolphmjamielennox: this seems to be completely missing the pain point that we're seeing in every other project using keystoneclient18:50
henrynashdtsanek: ahh…damn…left over from when I mistakingly DID haev a FK in there!18:50
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henrynashdstanek: it’s a fair cop, guv18:50
dolphmjamielennox: so i don't understand where this solution is coming from - where is the problem that it is solving?18:50
dstanekhenrynash: i only got 3 files in on the latest, but i can finish up after this meeting18:51
jamielennoxdolphm: so every service ends up with things like cacerts and usernames and passwords scattered through there config files18:51
bknudsonthere -> their18:51
henrynashdtsaneK; ok, great….I’ll wait for those, then re-patch as required18:51
morganfainbergbknudson, hehe18:52
jamielennoxdolphm: i want a standard mechanism that says create a session object from these config options and have all the config options named the same across all the projects18:52
jamielennoxdolphm: eg heat uses ca_cert not cacert18:52
henrynashdstanek: thx18:52
jamielennoxdolphm: this is more important when we get to auth_plugins18:52
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jamielennoxdolphm: we need a way to load any auth plugin (not just username/password as in current configs) and create a client based on that18:52
jamielennoxand we can't expect the other clients to figure out how to do that18:53
bknudsonthere's a lot of auth options that aren't going to be useful in a config file18:53
jamielennoxso the procedure would be18:53
jamielennoxauth = keystoneclient.auth.conf.load_from_conf(CONF, group)18:54
jamielennoxsession = keystoneclient.session.Session.load_from_conf(CONF, group, auth=auth)18:54
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jamielennoxclient = keystoneclient.client.Client(session=session)18:54
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bknudsonor client = neutronclient.client.SessionClient(session=session)18:55
dolphmjamielennox: right, what you're doing is forward-looking, but the problem statement sounds like this- https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+bug/133233718:55
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1332337 in python-keystoneclient "python-keystoneclient not providing shell parameters" [Wishlist,In progress]18:55
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jamielennoxbknudson: right18:55
jamielennoxso he's looking at CLI18:56
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jamielennoxthat'd be: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95678/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95679/18:56
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jamielennoxsame concepts though18:58
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dolphmjamielennox: this looks like the patch i was expecting: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95680/2/keystoneclient/shell.py18:59
dolphmnow i get it!18:59
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bknudsonthat bug says in progress but I don't see a review18:59
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marekdjamielennox: BTW. for the saml auth plugin i'd need to be able to pick another plugin (for IdP authN) load it and pass some params there. Of course params would differ per idp-authN plugin. Do you think we should make it somehow hierarchic or maybe try to squeeze parameters in one group/section, for both plugins (Unscoped token plugin and idp-auth plugin)19:00
dolphmbknudson: re-assigned :-/ wish i had known about jamie's work sooner19:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  1 19:01:24 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-07-01-18.03.html19:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-07-01-18.03.txt19:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-07-01-18.03.log.html19:01
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jeblair#startmeeting infra19:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  1 19:02:58 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:03
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jeblair#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting19:03
jeblairagenda ^19:03
jeblair#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-06-24-19.02.html19:03
jeblairlast meeting ^19:03
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jeblair#topic  Actions from last meeting19:03
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jeblairso there aren't any on the list, however we did do some renames19:03
fungiyeah, that we did19:03
jeblaira bunch (but not all) of the murano projects were moved to stackforge-attic19:04
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jeblairbash8 -> bashate19:04
jeblairand designate moved to openstack19:04
fungialong with its subprojects19:04
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fungi(client, specs)19:04
jeblairwe had to disable the bash8 devstack job temporarily, but i believe that's been re-enabled, yeat?19:04
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jeblaircool.  i haven't heard about any problems19:05
fungii approved the revert as soon as i got the last image update to complete (required a retry in one region because the first attempt hung)19:05
jeblairwe have a few more changes to the rename docs pending as a result of that19:05
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zaroi think clarkb did trusty and updated build-timeout plugin19:05
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clarkbI did, and approved the changes to start using the new build timeout plugin19:06
jeblair(catching up with puppet procedural changes)19:06
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jeblair#topic  Announcement: Next Bug Day Tuesday July 8th starting at 17:00 UTC (pleia2)19:06
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jeblairnot sure if pleia2 was here, but i'm sure if she were, she would want to say: "Next Bug Day Tuesday July 8th starting at 17:00 UTC"19:07
mordredin a fit of consistency, I will be out in an all-day managers meeting july 8th19:07
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jeblairmordred: so we can expect quite a bit of work from you as you seek to escape the tedium!19:07
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pleia2I'll prep the etherpad the evening before so we can get started quickly in the morning of the 8th19:08
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jeblairwe should make sure this is our last bug day. i don't want to be using launchpad by the time the next one rolls around.19:08
pleia2that would be great19:09
jeblair#topic  F20 jobs (ianw 7/1)19:09
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ianwthanks for reviews on https://review.openstack.org/101110 (Track last allocations to ensure forward-progress)19:09
jeblairit has 2x+2s now19:09
ianwwho else can look at it19:09
jeblairif anyone else wants to look it over, we can wait, otherwise, we can merge it now19:10
clarkbI am reasonably confident in it because the added tests are great :)19:10
jeblairderekh_: ^ fyi19:10
ianw2) i've started to look at centos7 testing19:10
mordredianw: thanks for the work on that!19:11
jeblairoh, ha! rhel7 released while i was out in the wilderness!19:11
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ianwhttps://review.openstack.org/103735 & https://review.openstack.org/10345819:11
fungii too missed that event19:11
ianwi would love to get an early experimental job started19:11
ianweven if on just one provider19:12
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ianwhowever, i'm not sure where i'd get the images from19:12
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ianwi'd love some contacts for either hp or rackspace who i could talk to19:12
derekh_jeblair: seen the review been catching up after 2 weeks off, can give it a whirl later if ye want and add another +1 (hopefully)19:12
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mordredianw: we're getting close on having dib-based images for nodepool19:13
ianwso we could discuss early centos7 images and how we could test them19:13
mordredianw: do they have published images for early centos7?19:13
ianwmordred: yeah, i still have to spin that up and test out fedora builds there19:13
ianwnext on my todo :)19:13
clarkbderekh_: awesome that would be good19:13
ianwmordred: yes, there is a centos7 nightly stuff happening19:13
jeblairianw: the ideal is that we will soon provide our own images using dib and glance; but until that works, our process depends on hp and rax having base images19:14
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ianwmordred: http://buildlogs.centos.org/centos/7/cloud/CentOS-7-Broken-20140620-Nightly.qcow2 is one i've been using19:14
mordredianw: I love that it has broken in the name19:14
fungithe filename of that is rather inspiring19:14
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ianwjeblair: yes, for sure, that's why i'd like to see if hp & rax have any "secret menu" etc where we could get a beta image just to smoke-test19:15
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mordredbut honestly, if that exists, then it's a piece of cake to make a dib image on top of19:15
jeblairianw: *nod*19:15
fungilooks like 101110 *just* got a new patchset courtesy of tchaypo19:16
clarkbwait what19:16
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fungioh, he edited the commit message19:16
clarkbbut why19:16
fungi(through the gerrit webui)19:16
fungito add Closes-Bug: #130840719:17
jeblairnow it doesn't have 2x+2s :(19:17
clarkbargle bargle19:17
clarkband no tchaypo here to argue with19:17
jeblairi think i trust that review comment, so it should be a pretty easy re-review19:18
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clarkbyeah should be quick19:18
jeblairianw: thanks for taking on centos7!  anything further?19:18
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ianwso yeah, if anyone has any nicks i can ping on the image issue, that would be great.  otherwise, i'll get to the dib path soon19:19
ianwother than that, no, thanks19:19
jeblair#topic Zuul Cloner patch, a port to python of the devstack shell script cloning repositories19:20
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nibalizero/ im back19:20
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jeblairhashar: ping!19:20
hasharZuul cloner, basically a port to python of the devstack shell script that clones your repositories.19:20
hasharat wikimedia we have a similar need to clone various repo and run integration tests of the result19:21
hasharI am too lazy to adjust a shell script so went mad and ported it to python19:21
hashar#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70373/19:21
hasharIt is very basic for now but should fetch appropriate Zuul ref and fallback to a given branch or master19:21
hasharExample output for a job on MediaWiki branch REL1_23:19:21
hashar#link https://integration.wikimedia.org/ci/job/mediawiki-core-extensions-integration/48/consoleFull19:21
clarkbout of curiousity where did the devstack function break?19:21
hasharIt has the basic functionalities, would need some help writing some basic integration tests.19:21
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clarkbit should be reasonably flexible but I am sure there were issues19:22
hasharI am hoping you guys would be interested in eventually migrating the devstack shell of doom to that python code base19:22
jeblairthis is really cool, and i believe in the future we will move to using it for devstack-gate, and then start using it for other integration jobs, and we can stop abusing devstack-gate for that purpose19:22
hasharit is a long way though. The python part only support very basic functionality.  It does not have hardcoded branches for some specific projects you have. But I believe we have a good base to be build upon.19:22
fungiyeah, the integration cloning logic in d-g is not really well suited to shell anyway, and benefits from being in python i think19:22
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hasharthe idea came when looking turbo hipster and talking with Joshua.  He was more or less rewriting part of the devstack script. So I though cloning should be a core feature of Zuul so other third parties could reuse it easily.19:23
hasharnot much to say. Wanted to make sure all of you guys know about the patch and eventually give it a try :]19:24
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hashardone (sorry long read)19:24
jeblairhashar: thanks, i'm very excited about it -- i'm hoping to review it soon, and maybe help out a bit :)19:24
clarkbyaeh I think putting that stuff in zuul is a great idea19:25
clarkbI still think it may help me review it if there are some examples of the issues with the other thing19:25
clarkbbasically items to be on the lookout for when reviewing that change and others19:25
jeblairclarkb: i think the biggest issue is that devstack-gate comes with a lot of devstack baggage19:26
clarkboh I see19:26
jeblairdevstack-gate has unit tests for the cloning functionality, so we may want to make sure that those scenarios end up in the zuul-cloner too19:26
hasharI made it project agnostic.  But there is a feature known as clone map  which let you clone a repo at a specific place (I need that for mediawiki)19:26
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jeblair#topic Puppet 3 Master (nibalizer)19:27
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nibalizerso it sounds like i have some consesus to fire up a p3 master19:27
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nibalizeri think that means we need someone to provision a node, and a core to sit with me and we'll poke it till it works19:28
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/83678/19:28
nibalizeri'm somewhat concerned that the 3.6.2 feature 'directory environments' will bone us19:28
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nibalizerso im consideriing ammending that reveiw to pin puppet to 3.419:28
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nibalizersince 3.5 was buggy as all heck19:28
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nibalizeris there anyone who would be willing to work with me on getting the p3 node up?19:29
jeblairwhat does 'directory environments' do?19:29
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nibalizerit depercates the modulepath environment variable, as well as manifest and a few others19:29
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jeblair#link http://docs.puppetlabs.com/puppet/latest/reference/environments.html19:30
nibalizernow you specify an envionment directory and in that directory each sub directory is an environment and has its own config file to set things like modulepath19:30
hasharWikimedia migrated recently and has puppet 3.4.3 (ships with Ubuntu Precise)19:30
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nibalizerthere has been a lot of confused users on the puppet-users mailing list and on irc having trouble with changes in 3.6.219:30
hasharmight be relevant, some of our ops build a tool to compile catalog with 2.7 and 3.4 and output the resulting diff ( we got 3.4.3  ). Came very handy to ensure our puppet were still compatible.19:31
nibalizerya that thing is super sweet19:31
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jesusauruswhats the name of that tool?19:31
jesusaurusis it open source?19:31
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jeblairnibalizer: i should be able to help spin up a node tomorrow19:32
hashar#link http://git.wikimedia.org/tree/operations%2Fsoftware.git/master/compare-puppet-catalogs19:32
nibalizerjeblair: excellent, you're PDT right? what time works for you?19:32
nibalizerI have stuff in the morning so evening is preferable for me19:32
hasharjeblair: license is GPLv219:32
hasharjesusaurus: license is GPLv219:32
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jesusaurusawesome, thanks19:33
jeblairnibalizer: not evening, so much; i'd want to start before 2pm probably19:33
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nibalizerstart at noon? start at 1?19:34
jeblairnibalizer: clarkb or mordred tend to hang around later if you wanted to try to ping them19:34
jeblairnibalizer: 1pm wfm19:34
nibalizerlets do that19:34
nibalizeri meant afternoon anyways19:34
fungii'd be happy to help too, though my timezone doesn't overlap as much so unless you like getting up early ;)19:34
jeblairok cool19:35
jeblair#action nibalizer and jeblair to spin up a puppet3 master19:35
jeblair#topic  Open discussion19:35
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clarkbthe elasticsearch situation is slightly better this week than last (sdague has done some work to cleanup problem logs)19:36
clarkbbut still not great19:36
hasharnibalizer: feel free to ask about wikimedia puppet 3 migration in #wikimedia-operations19:36
jeblairclarkb: how's the ssd test going?19:36
clarkbmordred has pinged rax about it to see if we can have a discussion about the best way to deal with the problem19:36
fungisince nobody has provided a compelling argument for git-review 2.0, i'm going ahead with 1.24. writing up release notes this evening, i'll link an etherpad in #-infra later for perusal19:36
clarkbjeblair: I haven't done the ssd yet because I was hoping mordred would get a quick response but I haven't heard anything so I should probably go ahead and start that this afternoon19:36
clarkbany opposition to that? eg to wait a bit longer for word from rax?19:37
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* krotscheck has lots of big storyboard patches up.19:37
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jeblairclarkb: yeah, let's give it a shot19:37
clarkbfungi: ++19:37
jeblairclarkb: learn what we can19:37
clarkbjeblair: ok I will start working on that as the game happens this afternoon19:37
fungialso, i missed that we have several git-review bugs where reporters simply attached patches as diffs, and some fix (albeit low-priority) bugs. i suppose they can wait for after release to get git-am'd in19:37
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jeblairi have nearly, but not quite, worked through my vacation-related review backlog19:38
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clarkbkrotscheck: scary js multi k line changes?19:39
pleia2I sent a note to the list earlier I'd like feedback on http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2014-July/001471.html have my local (my hpcloud account) demo of zanata up and running at
krotscheckclarkb: I tried to break them up!19:39
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jeblairkrotscheck: remind me again, what would be needed to make the docs-draft deploys of the js code work against prod?19:40
pleia2I called WildFly the community open source version, but it seems to not entirely be a clone, but instead more like "another java application server that should do what jboss enterprise does"19:40
clarkbfungi: ya I think we should get into a habit of releasing more often if git review is going to be active which it has been19:40
krotscheckjeblair: Configuration injection into the build, plus CORS support in pecan.19:40
clarkbfungi: then the cost of applying a few bugfixes and releasing is low19:40
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clarkbpleia2: so it is magic?19:41
fungiclarkb: agreed. i meant to release more often, but have fallen down on the job (ENOTIME, as is the case for everyone else too)19:41
pleia2clarkb: something like that19:41
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jeblairkrotscheck: anybody doing cors in pecan?  and do you think it would be safe to enable if it did?19:41
fungipleia2: awesome, btw!19:42
jeblairregarding the meetup: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Qa_Infra_Meetup_201419:42
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jeblairthere are som potential sprint topics listed19:42
hasharfungi: lot of wikimedia/mediawiki developers are solely relying on git-review to interact with Gerrit :]19:42
jeblairsome of them may be discussions, some of them may be hacking...19:42
hasharfungi: definitely helped us to enroll more volunteers. So git-review is time well spent19:42
jeblairdoes anyone have other suggestions, or feedback on those things?  and would it be worthwhile to try to organize that a bit more?  maybe even set a schedule?  or better to play by ear?19:43
fungihashar: as for us too. and thanks for the feedback!19:43
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clarkbjeblair: a loose scheduel would probably be a good thing19:43
pleia2jeblair: I should probably add translation stuff on there too, might be good to have some high bandwidth time19:43
clarkbjeblair: especially if people end up skpping timeslots to see darmstadt19:43
krotscheckjeblair: Haven’t researched it yet.19:43
hasharare qa infra meetup held on a regular basis? Would love to attend one in Europe if you don't mind having me floating around.19:44
clarkb(I don't intend on doing that fwiw but have heard rumblings that this may happen)19:44
jeblairhashar: no, this is the first joint one; we had a bootcamp a year ago in nyc though19:44
krotscheckjeblair: Maybe? I get where you’re going though.19:44
clarkbjeblair: I definitely think logstash/elasticsearch sould happen given the recent issues around that19:45
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pleia2hashar: you should join us :)19:45
clarkb(that is me being slightly selfish :) but I think it will be time well spent)19:45
jeblairhashar: we'd love to have you join us :)19:45
fungihashar: this one is in europe... fortuitous!19:45
hasharI would have if knew about it earlier. I am on vacation that week and rented a place ages ago :/19:45
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fungiyou don't happen to be vacationing in frankfurt that week, by any chance? ;)19:46
jeblairhashar: does the place you rented hold 30 people?19:46
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jeblairwell, we always have paris.19:46
krotscheckWe’ve always got paris!19:46
* fungi groans19:46
* krotscheck fails at references19:47
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hasharon topic, having past experience attending hackathon. We do it unconference style.  People write down on post-it topics they are interested in, we stick them on a wall of card  and thus form groups by topic19:47
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hasharwe also have some informal short presentations during the day. 40 mins + 20 min qa.  That helps bring everyone on par on those topics.19:47
jeblairhashar: good idea, and it may disrupt clarkb's plans to skip out and tour the city :)19:47
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fungihashar: that's more or less what we're doing already, i think, just getting an early start with the wiki19:48
hasharex of one i held was: creating your Jenkins job with JJB.  Covered installation, code base, yaml template, our jobs, how to set it up + demo.19:48
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clarkbjeblair: I am saving the touring for post paris19:48
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fungihashar: but yes, i've been to a few barcamps which used that model too and i agree it works quite well19:49
hasharwe usually tour the city in the evening and end up in a bar. The city tour is a good way to relax before the exhausting round of beers / crazy night discussion19:49
jeblairi think we're planning on doing a lot of presentation style stuff during the first 2 days, to try to get as many people up to speed as possible, but then the rest of the week is more freeform19:49
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wenlocko/ you probably have seen me poking around a bit, i wanted to let folks know that work ive been working on was released last week.  we are downstream from a lot of work you are doing on config.19:49
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wenlockty for your help up to now.  this allowed us to create forj.io19:49
fungii do think at least a presentation pitch phase would be helpful, in case there are some presentations which nobody really thinks they're going to benefit from after all19:50
jeblairso yeah, maybe we should identify which of those topics would make good mini-presentations, or discussions, and which are hacking, and try to break things up and loosly schedule them19:50
hasharfungi: yeah that is similar to bar camps indeed19:50
pleia2wenlock: great :)19:50
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fungijeblair: agreed19:50
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fungiwenlock: that's awesome19:50
hasharI am usually not productive during such hacking sessions. But get a ton of crazy ideas that are implemented post event.19:50
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wenlockim hoping with time i can contribute some improvements upstream as well, so we have even lest modules we've had to fork19:52
hasharif I take "Nodepool enhancements", you could have a presentation of nodepool, the problem it has, feature it lacks. Then brainstorm to create a backlog of items to produce for the next few months or so.19:52
jeblairwenlock: any chance you'll be able to attend the meetup in germany?19:52
hashar#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Qa_Infra_Meetup_201419:53
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jeblairwenlock: or oscon the following week?19:53
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mordredwenlock: either or both of those would be awesome for you to come to19:53
jeblairwenlock: one of the things i want to discuss is making sure we have a good roadmap for how to make infra reusable downstream, and thereby facilitate upstream contributions19:53
jeblairso would love to have you involved :)19:54
wenlockjeblair whish's i knew earlier, i would have asked mordred for a ticket, hehe19:54
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mordredwenlock: I can still go talk to people about getting you approved to go19:54
* fungi suspects mordred can fit it into his budget ;)19:54
mordredwell, wenlock doesn't work for me, so that's harder ...19:55
hasharis that https://www.forj.io/ based on Zuul openstack toolchain ?19:55
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fungimordred: ahh, too bad19:55
mordredbut maybe a trip to portland during oscon wouldn't break wenlock's team's budget19:55
wenlocktrue ture19:55
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wenlockim going to be up in Portland weekend of Aug 1-419:55
wenlockbut for fundraiser stuff19:55
wenlock+ vacation19:55
jeblairoscon is july 20-2419:55
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fungiit's a great place for a vacation19:56
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wenlockwhere is oscon?  links?19:56
clarkbalso great for brewing beer19:56
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wenlocki bet i can get that goign19:56
jeblairwenlock: http://www.oscon.com/oscon201419:56
fungiwenlock: in the convention center downtown19:56
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wenlockawesome, i'll be checking that one out.  try to get my approval19:57
zarohashar: yes, it is.19:57
hasharzaro: maybe forj.io could entirely replace me so :-]19:57
jeblairwenlock: there's probably no need to register for the actual conference if you don't want -- i think we're mostly focusing on the hallway track :)19:57
jeblairwenlock: or rather, the bar track19:57
zarohashar: unlikely.  more for simpler stuff19:57
fungijeblair: or clarkb's beer barrel track19:58
clarkbI haev 15 gallons of the stuff now19:58
jeblairright, that's the actual thing19:58
clarkbI expect you guys to help19:58
pleia2a quick fyi, I'm missing oscon to get my gallbladder out (we finally found out what is wrong)19:58
fungimy liver is primed and ready19:58
clarkbpleia2: oh no :(19:58
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clarkbbut I guess good to know what is wrong19:58
pleia2clarkb: yeah, no fun, but at least a solution!19:59
fungipleia2: oh, ouch19:59
zaroclarkb: hmm, maybe worth a short trip :)19:59
jeblairpleia2: sorry to hear that (but glad you know);  we'll drink to your health.  :)19:59
pleia2jeblair: much appreciated :)19:59
fungiand we're at time!20:00
jeblairthanks everyone!20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
pleia2thanks jeblair20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  1 20:00:10 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-01-19.02.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-01-19.02.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-01-19.02.log.html20:00
ttxAnyone here for the TC meeting ?20:00
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jbrycettx: aye20:00
ttxrussellb, annegentle, mordred, vishy, markmcclain, jaypipes, sdague: around ?20:01
ttxzehicle: you there ?20:01
mordredttx: (I hurt my neck a little while ago, so I'm only mostly lurking)20:01
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ttxwe have quorum on the TC side20:02
ttxzehicle_at_dell: o/20:02
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  1 20:02:18 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:02
ttxSo today is the Defcore-specific TC meeting that was requested last week20:02
ttxI had several discussions with TC members to try to clearly identify key concerns and questions20:02
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ttxThey fell into 3 main categories, which will form our agenda for today20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee20:03
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ttx#topic Scope of Defcore20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Scope of Defcore (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
markmcttx, do we want to give josh a minute?20:03
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markmche did say he was going to be here20:03
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ttxzehicle_at_dell: is someone else from defcore supposed to attend?20:03
ttxshall we wait?20:03
zehicle_at_dellI did not get specific RSVPs20:04
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zehicle_at_dellbut thought we had some people say they would join20:04
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troytoman1I am here if needed20:04
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ttxI just don't want to lose too much of our precious single-topic meeting time20:05
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markmcttx, cool20:05
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dhellmannwe're ~10% into the meeting, maybe we should go ahead and circle back if josh joins late?20:05
ttxI guess we can wait a bit more20:05
russellbwe're 5 minutes in *shrug*20:05
markmclet's go20:05
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ttxso this topic is about...20:05
ttxwhat exactly are the trademark use cases being targeted ?20:05
ttxIt might be clear from Defcore standpoint, but we found conflicting documentation on that topic20:06
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ttxAnd the answer affects a lot how strongly the TC feels about some issues20:06
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ttxOur guess was that the capabilities/designated sections approach would be used for the "OpenStack-powered" trademark license program20:06
ttxzehicle_at_dell: Is that a correct guess ?20:06
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zehicle_at_dellthat was the expectation20:07
mikalSo to be clear...20:07
markmcttx, and similar licenses like $VENDOR OpenStack as explained by sparkyc20:07
zehicle_at_delltrademark would require using designated sections and passing required tests20:07
mikalWe're talking about "FooTron powered by OpenStack"20:07
mikalNot "FooTron OpenStack"20:07
markmcmikal, both20:07
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markmccommerical trademark license agreements administered by the foundation20:07
zehicle_at_dellthere is a community use for the trademark that is not commercial20:07
ttxzehicle_at_dell: "powered by openstack" trademark program would require using designated sections and passing required tests ?20:08
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zehicle_at_dellthere are really three uses: commercial, community & code20:08
mikalSo, I thought the "powered by" mark was a runner up prize20:08
mikalAm I confused?20:08
zehicle_at_dellttx, yes20:08
dhellmannso this is for all 3 uses, not just the powered-by use?20:08
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zehicle_at_dellmikal, no.  that's the primary mark20:08
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mikali.e. powered by was for people who didn't comply with the full defcore requirements?20:08
markmcmikal, yeah, there's *potential* for an "OpenStack API Compatible" type trademark program in future; not agreed on yet20:08
zehicle_at_delldhellmann, NO.  it;s only for commerical20:08
zanebit seems backwards to be designating the sections that are OpenStack. Shouldn't everything be designated by default and then we identify the legitimate plugin points?20:08
markmcmikal, that would be the "runner up"20:08
mikalmarkmc: ahhh, ok20:08
zehicle_at_dellTo my knowledge, Compatible is for drivers / plug-ins20:09
ttxzehicle_at_dell: is Defcore about defining more than the Powered by openStack trademark license program ?20:09
russellbzaneb: we're not to that part yet :)20:09
dhellmannzehicle_at_dell: ok20:09
zehicle_at_dellwhat do you mean "runner up"20:09
zehicle_at_dellthat's not clear20:09
mikalzehicle_at_dell: someone who doesn't ship all the required bits20:09
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jbrycemikal: openstack powered = things built with openstack software; openstack compatible = things build on top of openstack or plugging into, emulating, etc20:09
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mikalSo, for example...20:09
zehicle_at_dellyou could not call it openstack if you did not have the required bits AND pass the tests20:09
mikalIf I rewrote nova in quickbasic20:10
jbryceopenstack powered includes things like appliances, converged hardware/software products, distrubitions20:10
zehicle_at_dellthere is no "runner up"  - it's a binary thing20:10
devanandais the intent for the outcome of DefCore to apply equally to all commercial trademark applications, or to create a test between different trademarks ("OpenStack" vs "Powered by OpenStack" vs "OpenStack Compatible", for example)20:10
mikalI could not get "FooTron OpenStack", or "FooTron powered by OpenStack"20:10
zehicle_at_dellof course, it's Apache2 so, you could use the code without using the trademark20:10
jbrycemikal: nove in quickbasic would not be powered by openstack and you would not get either20:10
mikalBut I might one day be able to get "FooTron OpenStack Compatible"20:10
jbrycemikal: correct20:10
mikaljbryce: cool. Just wanting to be super clear on this point20:10
vishyDefCore is only dealing with one trademark currently20:10
zehicle_at_dellmikal, no20:10
markmczehicle_at_dell, there is potential for "OpenStack API Compatible" mark for products that just meet the API requirements, but not the designated sections requirements20:10
zehicle_at_dellthat's not the way Compatible is currently defined20:10
ttxzehicle_at_dell: when you say "you could not call it openstack" you mean you cannot use the "Powered by OpenStack" trademark license program, right ?20:11
zehicle_at_dellmarkmc, yes.  that's a potential but not under discussion at this time20:11
markmczehicle_at_dell, as I said, not agreed on - but important TC understands the potential is there; helps clarify "OpenStack Powered"20:11
ttxsorry to insist but that's a key question20:11
zehicle_at_dellttx, yes.  control of the trademark is the only real power that we have20:11
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sparkycfocus is on the OpenStack powered in this phase afaik20:11
markmczehicle_at_dell, we really need precision here - you mean "control of the requirements for the commercial trademark licenses"20:12
sparkycfor commercial contexts20:12
jbryceopenstack powered is for any product (cloud, appliance, distribution) that includes the community-developed software20:12
markmczehicle_at_dell, that confusion is all this item on the agenda is hoping to clear up20:12
russellband not defining "openstack" itself20:12
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zehicle_at_dellmarkmc, it's about controlling who can use the trademark.  that's the power the Foundation has20:12
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markmczehicle_at_dell, *for commercial uses*20:13
mordredzehicle_at_dell: the specific scope of the trademark is what we're trying to clarify20:13
jbrycecapabilities and designated sections are meant to set the bounds on what is required for those products to be able to sign an openstack powerd license agreement20:13
zehicle_at_dellreally, the foundation manages ALL THREE of the uses cases20:13
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zehicle_at_dellhas to or we'd lose control of the mark20:13
mordredbecause it changes how we're thinking about what it says to respond to it20:13
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zehicle_at_dellBUT DefCore is only concerned about the commerical use20:13
ttxso it's about the "OpenStack" trademark, not just the Powered by OpenStack" trademark license program20:13
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zehicle_at_dellfor DefCore, it's only about the commercial ones20:13
dhellmannzehicle_at_dell: and that's20:13
dhellmannand that's "powered by" not "compatible", right?20:14
mordredcan someone please restate this very clearly - I am still not clear on scope20:14
zehicle_at_delldhellmann, I believe it's both.  those are both commericial20:14
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zehicle_at_dellbut we're mainly focused on Powered By right now20:14
sparkyccompatible to be considered in future phase20:14
zehicle_at_dellthere was some activity around the Compatiblie mark too20:14
ttxmordred: I think what zehicle_at_dell means by "commercial uses of the trademark" is what we mean by "commercial trademark license programs"20:14
zehicle_at_dellbut that is not moving as fast20:14
sparkycif we get powered right we have a great starting point20:14
vishythe current scope doesn’t include it20:15
dhellmannok, well, if my answer today is going to be used for both then I would like to understand the intent of both clearly20:15
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ttxand by we I mean the bylaws20:15
jbrycedhellmann: powered by = built with community-developed openstack software (therefore capabilities and designated sections are relevant); compatible = built around the software, more api based. may tie into capabilities for instance, but still has to be fleshed out20:15
zehicle_at_dellvishy, yes.  we intentioanlly keep DefCore narrow20:15
vishydhellman_: the designated sectrions and capabilities only apply to the powered by mark20:15
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zehicle_at_dellvishy, yes.20:16
dhellmannjbryce: so would compatible be part of what we're asking to designate, with substitutions, or would it be a layer above (apps) or below (drivers)?20:16
dhellmannvishy: ok, thanks20:16
ttxLet me try to summarize:20:16
devanandaI gather the "Compatible" mark is not being discussed now, but I'm still not clear if we're talking about the commercial use of the "OpenStack" trademark or the "Powered by OpenStack" trademark or both.20:16
ttx"DefCore is only about the commercial uses of the trademark -- currently, only the "Powered by OpenStack" trademark license program"20:16
markmcsummary - "the capabilities and designated sections defined through the DefCore process is only immediately intended to be used in the context of the 'OpenStack Powered' commercial trademark license agreement'20:16
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ttxzehicle_at_dell: does that work for you ?20:16
jbrycedhellmann: compatible would most likely have no designated code requirements. it could include management software for instance, that only integrates with the api but never implements any openstack20:16
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ttx#agreed the capabilities and designated sections defined through the DefCore process is only immediately intended to be used in the context of the 'OpenStack Powered' commercial trademark license agreement20:16
ttx#agreed DefCore is only about the commercial uses of the trademark -- currently, only the "Powered by OpenStack" trademark license program20:17
devanandattx: thanks20:17
ttxOK, let's move on20:17
ttxLots to cover20:17
ttx#topic Defcore Capabilities20:17
*** openstack changes topic to "Defcore Capabilities (Meeting topic: tc)"20:17
dhellmannjbryce: ok, I'm trying to understand if compatible would allow for something that looks like an openstack service but isn't our code20:17
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ttxOur answer on scoring the "Aligns with Technical Direction" columns is almost finalized20:17
ttxWe have two governance reviews up (initial scoring, clarification of 0.5 scores) to address that:20:17
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/10072120:17
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/10072220:17
ttxThere is a bit of confusion about capabilities though, mostly because they seem to be only defined in a json file that maps to test names20:17
ttxIf those are to form the basis of a trademark license program, our suggestion would be to document 1-2 sentences about the intent of each capability, with the tests used as a backup definition20:18
markmcdhellmann, my understanding on that - potentially yes, but not agreed on by the board yet20:18
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zehicle_at_dellttx, we'd love for that to happen20:18
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zehicle_at_dellI think it would be a very power thing for the community20:18
dhellmannmarkmc: ok, that feels very different from how it is being presented here in this meeting, though, almost like another type of license20:18
ttxzehicle_at_dell: cool20:18
jbrycedhellmann: that is not currently allowed by the existing license, but it has definitely been talked about as a potential additional use for that license20:18
zehicle_at_delltroytoman make a great start with the capabilities list BUT it still has a long way to go20:18
ttxThe second question on capabilities would be to clarify the relationship between capabilities and designated sections20:18
zehicle_at_dellwe did not expect DefCore to own that20:18
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ttxzehicle_at_dell: My understanding was that the "OpenStack-powered" trademark license program would apply to those which run designated sections *and* appeared to implement capabilities20:19
troytoman1ttx: that was the intention but the work needs to be done. i have been planning to work on that but was waiting for some of the processes to settle to make editing the json feasible20:19
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ttxtroytoman: I don't think that prevents us from answering, just makes it a bit more time-consuming20:19
zehicle_at_dellttx, yes.  Appeared = passed tests for those cabilities20:19
ttxzehicle_at_dell: But there is wording in some defcore etherpads that seem to suggest that designated sections could be nullified by excluding capabilities20:20
troytoman1ttx: understood.20:20
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zehicle_at_delltroytoman and ttx, and that's what's in the JSON file20:20
zehicle_at_dellwe have to have a single source of truth for capabilities (which tests and the description)20:20
zehicle_at_dellttx, exteending??20:20
jbrycedhellmann: the openstack compatible license does not allow for the same naming rights as the openstack powered license. for instance, you can never called something “FooTron OpenStack” under the compatible license. you can only say things like “FooTron Widget compatible with OpenStack”20:20
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dhellmannjbryce: ok20:21
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zehicle_at_dellthat's a surprise.  I do not remember any disucssion where we talked about capabilities beyond those covered by the reference implementation20:21
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zehicle_at_dellIMHO that would be a failure20:21
ttxzehicle_at_dell: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreLighthouse.F2F (lines 96-102)20:21
zehicle_at_dell(and I can point to past cases where a licensed implementation did that and it was bad)20:21
ttxmaybe we misread that20:21
zehicle_at_dellSwift creates interesting discussion20:22
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zehicle_at_dellbut it's a bit of a single item compared the the broader questions20:22
ttxzehicle_at_dell: ok, you confirm that it should be an AND20:22
zehicle_at_dellhappy to spend time on it, but it's not necessarily the common case20:22
ttxcapabilities AND designated sections20:22
zehicle_at_dellttx, YES20:22
jeblairjbryce: the "Powered by OpenStack" program also supports calling something "FooTron OpenStack"?20:22
ttxso they do not intersect20:23
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zehicle_at_dellttx, that was the specific work hammered out in the spider cycle where we did the 10 principles20:23
ttx#agreed Powered by OpenStack should pass capabilities tests AND implement designated sections20:23
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ttxOK, I think that clarifies well20:23
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zehicle_at_dellthere is required (designated) code and required tests.  vendors may have alternate implementation of non-designated areas20:23
jbrycecan i take one second to clarify something20:24
ttxjbryce: sure20:24
markmc_I think it's worth spelling out the swift example20:24
markmc_but that contradicts the AND thing we've just agreed here20:24
markmc_code can be required to be shipped even if the APIs it implements aren't required?20:25
zehicle_at_dellif there is no designated code then part of the AND is a noop20:25
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zehicle_at_dellmarmc_, good question20:25
markmc_if there is designated code and no corresponding capabilities, is the question20:25
jbrycethe license agreement in question is called OpenStack Powered and is intended for use with products and services that are built using OpenStack software. for instance a public cloud “FooTron Compute Powered By OpenStack”, an appliance “FooTron Appliance Powered by OpenStack, a distribution “FooTron OpenStack”20:25
markmc_the etherpad says something like "if the TC designates swift, we'll remove the swift capabilities"20:26
zehicle_at_dellif the required code is part of sections without required capabilities then we _assumed_ that that project would not be required20:26
ttx<if Swift has any designated sections then the DefCore committee will likely recommending omitting the "object-*" capabilities from core>20:26
jeblairjbryce: thank you, that is very clear :)20:26
zehicle_at_dellso, we should clarify that20:26
mordredjbryce: thank you20:26
russellbjbryce: thanks20:26
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jbryceall of those difference products would be held to the same standard. in other words, they would all be required to expose the same capabilities (testable over the APIs) and include the same actual community-developed software bits (designated sections)20:26
mordredjbryce: that clarifies the scope of this20:26
devanandajbryce: thanks. that answers my question from earlier20:27
ttx#info the license agreement in question is called OpenStack Powered and is intended for use with products and services that are built using OpenStack software. for instance a public cloud “FooTron Compute Powered By OpenStack”, an appliance “FooTron Appliance Powered by OpenStack, a distribution “FooTron OpenStack”20:27
mordredwe've been thinking of FooTron Openstack and FooTron powered by OpenStack as different things20:27
dhellman_jbryce: thanks, that is helpful20:27
markmc_jbryce, very nice summary20:27
ttx#info all of those difference products would be held to the same standard. in other words, they would all be required to expose the same capabilities (testable over the APIs) and include the same actual community-developed software bits (designated sections)20:27
ttx(sorry, capturing for the meetgin minutes)20:27
* mordred hands ttx a beer20:27
mikaljbryce: thanks for clarifying20:27
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markmc_<zehicle_at_dell> if the required code is part of sections without required capabilities then we _assumed_ that that project would not be required20:27
markmc_think that's where we were at20:27
jbrycethe only other product-type license agreement that currently exists, is OpenStack Compatible which is intended for products and services which are built on top of or plug into the community-developed software. For instance, a back-end storage system, or a cloud automation management layer that consumes the OpenStack APIs20:28
troytoman1markmc_: I think that makes sense but I don't know that we've been explicit20:28
ttx#info if the required code is part of sections without required capabilities then Defcore _assumed_ that that project would not be required20:28
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zehicle_at_dellfor example, if Saraha has designated code but no capabilities then it would still not be required for the mark20:28
ttxOK, I think that answers our question20:28
markmc_yeah, contradicting the AND thing earlier20:29
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russellbbut if you include something that implements the Swift APIs, the swift code is not required, right?  (if no swift capabilities included)20:29
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zehicle_at_dellmarkmc_, I don't see why.  you need both20:29
* ttx looks into boolean theory to find the right operator20:29
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russellbAND AND IFF20:29
markmc_zehicle_at_dell, you don't need swift designated code if there are no swift capabilities - that's the AND we meant20:29
russellbor something bizarre20:29
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zehicle_at_dellmarkmc_, yes.  no required caps means the code is not required20:30
markmc_anyway, cool - clarified now ...20:30
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zehicle_at_dellso, perhaps there's an ordering item that's important20:30
ttx#info no required caps means the code is not required20:30
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zehicle_at_dellfirst, you need to have required capabilities20:30
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russellbpasses test == (!capabilities_included OR (capabilities_pass && designated_sections_included))20:30
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zanebzehicle_at_dell: so if the capability is not required, but you deploy it anyway, but you don't use the designated section... ?20:30
zehicle_at_dellthen you must include the designated code under those capabilities20:31
zehicle_at_dellzaneb, we call that earning karma20:31
dhellman_and if there is no capability then it doesn't matter if the code is there or not?20:31
zehicle_at_delldhellman_, +120:31
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ttxOK, I propose we move on20:31
zehicle_at_dellwe did a graphic of this at the ATL summit20:32
ttxIt clarified what we needed clarified20:32
russellbfair enough20:32
ttx#topic Defcore Designated sections20:32
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dhellman_yeah, I think I get it now -- this is what I thought the position as in the beginning20:32
zehicle_at_dellWill is pointing out to me that we're looking for a MINIMUM (least common deminotor)20:32
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ttxSo, our view on this (as the TC) is the following:20:32
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ttxThe TC defines the contents of the integrated release, and that's the set of things we vouch for20:32
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zehicle_at_dellI'll go ahead and be the first person to say "INTEROP"20:32
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ttxDefining a subset of the integrated release would make the TC, the representation of the contributors to the project, appear to endorse or encourage replacing part of their work with proprietary alternatives20:32
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ttx(although we value that the Apache license gives you that freedom)20:33
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ttx(and we respect that it's the board prerogatives to determine trademark license programs)20:33
ttxBasically, the TC doesn't want to be the deciders of where proprietary replacements are allowed in "OpenStack Powered" products20:33
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zehicle_at_dellttx, my understandoing is that the project is _designed_ to have replacable parts20:33
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ttxzehicle_at_dell: i wouldn't say it's designed to use proprietary replacements, no20:33
zehicle_at_dellttx, that does not make sense to me.  it's part of the design of the project20:33
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ttxit's designed to be modular20:33
ttxwe'd like to recognize that it's the board's right to define a subset of the integrated release to use for the purpose of commercial trademark license agreements20:34
zehicle_at_dellmodular, but only for open alternatives?20:34
ttx(such as the "OpenStack Powered" trademark program)20:34
zanebzehicle: OpenStack is not an open core project imo20:34
ttxand therefore the board should have final say on "designated sections"20:34
russellbzehicle: modular because that's the implementation that makes sense.  the projects have multiple choices within the project itself20:34
ttxIt is very consistent with what the bylaws currently say, fwiw. TC builds the set, and Board picks a subset to apply trademark rules on.20:34
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markmc_zehicle_at_dell, the technical architecture allows for replacements, we make no guarantees about the API for those replacements20:34
zehicle_at_dellmarkmc_, agreed.  that's why we want tests20:34
markmc_zehicle_at_dell, we value that our copyright license allows proprietary replacements20:34
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vishybasically the upshot is the tc shouldn’t be making this decision because it isn’t a technical decision20:35
markmc_zehicle_at_dell, but think it's the board's call on what the trademark license allows20:35
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zehicle_at_dellif you ask the board to make a technical decision about which code to include, they will likely have to say none (since we are not in a position to make that decision)20:35
zehicle_at_dellwe are asking for help from the TC about this20:35
mordredit puts us in a weird position to have already decided what's in an out, the integrated release, and then come back and be asked for a different set of software that's in20:35
mordredfor us, we've already made a very clear call on what's in20:35
markmc_whether "OpenStack Powered" products are required to ship swift or not is certainly *not* a technical question20:36
russellbright, we have a process for stuff making it into the integrated release over time20:36
markmc_not one iota of that is technical20:36
dhellman_markmc_: +120:36
mordredfrom our point of view, swift is part of opensatck20:36
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ttxwe respect that it's the board right to say otherwise20:36
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zehicle_at_dellmordred, based on evidence from a commerical perspective, it's not20:36
ttxfor use oin trademark programs20:36
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markmc_totally, the board controls the requirements of the commercial trademark licenses20:37
mordredzehicle_at_dell: that's why it is the board's perrogative to contradict us20:37
zehicle_at_dellthere are people using openstack without including swift20:37
zehicle_at_delland other integrated parts too20:37
mordredzehicle_at_dell: that is their right to do20:37
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mordredbut we, as the people who make openstack20:37
mordredhave included swift in it20:37
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dhellman_zehicle_at_dell: there are people using *parts of* openstack that way20:37
mordredwhich means swift is a part of openstack20:37
vishyzehicle_at_dell: correct but it isn’t a technical decision to say whether that is allowed20:37
zehicle_at_dellso, should they be allowed to use the name OpenStack if they don't include swift?20:37
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vishyzehicle_at_dell: if the board says so20:37
zehicle_at_delleven if they use every other line of the prodyct20:37
ttxzehicle_at_dell: that's the board's call20:37
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mordredthat's teh board's call. but from our side, swift is a part of openstack20:38
markmc_zehicle_at_dell, it's completely the board's decision whether some products should be allowed to be called "OpenStack Powered"20:38
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ttxWe have two ways to get there, I think20:38
mordredand if the board makes a different decision from us based on things, then that's within its legal rights20:38
zehicle_at_dellif you want to push the technical decision about designatated sections to the board, I'm happy to run that up the flag pole20:38
ttxzehicle_at_dell: We have two ways to get there, I think20:38
mordredwe do not want to push the technical decision to the board20:38
zehicle_at_dellbut I don't advise it20:38
mordredwe already made the technical decision20:38
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dhellman_zehicle_at_dell: as markmc_ said, swift isn't a technical decision20:38
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ttx(1) would be to designate all the havana integrated release as a havana designated section, *and* recognize that it's the Board's right to designate a final subset of that set for trademark license program usage20:38
troytoman1Does the TC have a preference? (i.e. it should be the same as the integrated release?)20:38
vishyzehicle_at_dell: the assertion is there is no technical part to this20:38
markmc_right, it's not a technical decision and it's patently clear that it's the board decision anyway20:39
ttx(2) would be to adopt markmc's suggested process on the Defcore list: let the Board come up with a strawman designated sections list, RFC that with TC and PTLs and the wider community, then let the board build the final synthesis20:39
mordredzehicle_at_dell: we've already declared to the world the software we think is in openstack20:39
ttxI think both approaches would address the concern that the TC should not decide where proprietary replacements are allowed in "OpenStack Powered" products20:39
mordredif the board wants to grant someone the ability to use the trademark when they use a different set of software20:39
markmc_troytoman1, we would prefer the board to come up with a strawman based on their full understand of the commercial considerations20:39
mordredtehy can20:39
zehicle_at_dellbased on community feedback in the process, we felt that it was important to have upstream code included20:39
zehicle_at_dellas a requirement20:39
markmc_troytoman1, we're happy to provide input on that20:39
zanebzehicle_at_dell: it seems like the default here (that sections have to be designated explicitly to be required) is backwards20:39
mordredzehicle_at_dell: I think upstream code is exsential20:39
zehicle_at_dellIMHO, the design of the code allows for us to have designated sections20:40
dhellman_zaneb: +120:40
markmc_troytoman1, but the board - with its understanding of the commercial ecosystem - is best placed to come up with that strawman20:40
jbryceit’s not just about proprietary replacements20:40
mordredzaneb: +!20:40
zanebzehicle_at_dell: I don't think there would be as much objection to designating optional sections20:40
dhellman_zehicle_at_dell: you are not differentiating between whole projects and plugin APIs20:40
zehicle_at_delljbryce, +1.  there are lots of ways to replace the code20:40
mikalzehicle_at_dell: this is an important point20:40
jbrycein my experience in the real world, there are open alternatives being switched into places20:40
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troytoman1markmc_: that's fine. i'm just trying to understand if the TC has any guidance or preference - I'll take it that it doesn't20:40
jbryceprobably most frequently20:40
mordredtroytoman1: I do not agree20:40
mikalzehicle_at_dell: we are saying that the plug in interfaces inside our code were intended for alternate implementations also present in our code20:40
zanebe.g. I would designate the heat-cfn-api and all the AWS compatibility resources as optional quite happily20:40
mordredtroytoman1: I think we're saying quite the opposite of that20:40
zehicle_at_delldhellman_, I am asking for the TC help help make that distinction.  I'm intentionally trying to stay away from that20:40
troytoman1mordred: quite the opposite of what?20:41
mordredtroytoman1: I believe _I_ a t least am saying that I have already made the call on which bits are in and out20:41
mordredtroytoman1: that we don't want to give guidance20:41
zehicle_at_dellmikal, like KVM?  it's that inside our code?20:41
dhellman_zehicle_at_dell: you certainly can tell the difference between swift and a hypervisor driver in nova, though, so we should not conflate those 2 cases20:41
russellbmordred: +120:41
mordredtroytoman1: I want to give guidance - I voted on the integrated release20:41
mordredI believe that's opensatck20:41
mikalzehicle_at_dell: like the kvm and xen drivers, yes20:41
mordredif someone else, who is not me, wants to call someone else openstack20:41
jeblairmordred: agreed20:41
troytoman1mordred: I read that as "I think it should be the integrated release but you can decided differently"20:41
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mordredthey're going to have to do that without my agreement20:41
dhellman_zehicle_at_dell: the nova driver to talk to kvm is in our code20:41
mordredtroytoman1: you can20:41
zehicle_at_dellmikal, those are not inside OpenStack or part of the integrated release20:41
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mordredtroytoman1: you are legally allowed to disagree with the TC20:42
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ttxzehicle_at_dell: the trick is, that distinction is more about policy than it is about a technical question20:42
mikalzehicle_at_dell: the drivers are20:42
troytoman1mordred: I am trying to figure out if that is a TC view or a mordred view20:42
russellbTC view20:42
mordredeveryone in the TC who agrees with me ++20:42
jeblairmordred: ++20:42
sdaguetroytoman: it's pretty heavily believed by the TC20:42
troytoman1mordred: I'm fine with either but I would like to know what the thoughts are as we deliberate or come up with a strawman20:42
devanandazehicle_at_dell: what we're saying is, that code is modular is a result of good coding practices, not the result of an intent to enable proprietary plugins or alternate implementations.20:42
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troytoman1thanks for that input everyone - it is very helpful to me, at least20:42
vishythat is not my view20:43
vishybut that is the tc consensus20:43
ttxvishy: that's because you're unique20:43
vishyand the correct position for the tc imo20:43
* mordred loves vishy20:43
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markmc_-- (I can see good reason for the board to allow OpenStack Powered products not ship all of OpenStack)20:43
ttxzehicle_at_dell: which of the two approaches I ourtlined earlier would have your preference ?20:43
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markmc_but I think the TC is not the ones best placed to make that call20:43
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markmc_I think it's a terrible idea to ask the TC to make that call20:44
vishymarkmc_: ++20:44
troytoman1i think we can work on a straw man - but it is helpful to know what the current opinion is20:44
ttxWe can provide technical feedback on a strawman, for sure20:44
ttxas anybody in our community can20:44
devanandamarkmc_: I can see good reasons for the board to do that, too20:44
ttxtroytoman1: so... approach (2) ?20:44
vishyhighly suggest that the strawman differentiates between replacing components and projects20:44
ttx"adopt markmc's suggested process on the Defcore list: let the Board come up with a strawman designated sections list, RFC that with TC and PTLs and the wider community, then let the board build the final synthesis" ?20:44
zehicle_at_dellttx, we already did that20:44
vishyand addresses the swift case head-on20:44
jbryceso…can i ask a crazy question?20:45
jbrycevishy: that’s where my question was going = )20:45
russellbjbryce: please :)20:45
zehicle_at_dellour strawman has swift = 0%20:45
dhellman_troytoman1: defcore needs to differentiate between vertical division between projects like swift and nova and horizontal divisions of those projects into layers with drivers that can be added outside the tree20:45
ttxzehicle_at_dell: so be it20:45
devanandamarkmc_: but the point is that that is not a technical decision20:45
dhellman_vishy: ++20:45
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ttxzehicle_at_dell: some people will cmplain at that in RFC phase20:45
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zehicle_at_dell#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-designated-sections20:45
troytoman1dhellman_: Defintely20:45
devanandadhellman_: ++20:45
sdagueyeh, instead of trying to come up with a policy that dances around the hard problems, just call them out20:46
ttxzehicle_at_dell: tbh, since you can nullify the designated section by removing capabilities, the end result is the same20:46
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zehicle_at_dellttx, removing the capabilities LIMITS interopability20:46
zehicle_at_dellthe end goal is interoperability20:46
sdagueswift, keystone, anything else we know folks are replacing, and just have the board decide if that's the commercial ecosystem they want20:46
mordredI think the goal of trademarks is to designate the "is"-ness of something20:46
zehicle_at_dellso, when we remove a capability it means that vendors will not have to include those APIs20:46
zehicle_at_dellwhich reduces the scope of OpenStack clouds20:47
mordredif you put a name on something, you want to know that you are getting that thing20:47
notmynamefor the record, swift does support "drivers" that ecosystems members have replaced with both proprietary and open alternate implementations20:47
ttxzehicle_at_dell: feair enough, that's why designated sections should be designed in parallel with capabilities, not provided by a third-party20:47
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zanebmordred: ++20:47
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mordrednotmyname: ++20:47
jbrycethe most common scenario i’ve seen so far that doesn’t comply with the existing OpenStack Powered license agreement (“must include the entirety of the nova and swift code from a recent release”) has to do with people using an alternate object storage system that exposes the swift APIs. it seems like everyone keeps dancing away from making a call one way or the other on what object storage in an openstack cloud shoul20:47
mordredjbryce: +100020:47
ttxand i don't think that's a technical question20:47
ttxI have an opinion on it20:47
dhellman_notmyname: ++20:47
jbryceare there other examples besides the swift one that are so hot-button?20:47
mordredI do too20:47
ttxbut it's NOT technical20:47
jbryceor is this really all about what does object storage in openstack mean?20:48
troytoman1ttx: i agree20:48
mordredttx: ++20:48
ttxtroytoman1: and the TC is not elected to decide that. You guys are20:48
sdaguettx: +++ :)20:48
zehicle_at_delljbryce, keystone (but no one gets up set that it's also 0% designated)20:48
vishyjbryce: i think the closest second place is out-of-tree cinder drivers20:48
dhellman_jbryce: there are some things going on in block storage that may raise questions20:48
devanandajbryce: almost. I think it's "what does openstack mean"20:48
russellbi think replacing a virt driver in nova is controversial, as well, IMO20:48
troytoman1ttx: nod20:48
mikaljbryce: I think nova hypervisor drivers are close, but not as hot button20:48
jbrycemordred: “if you put a name on something, you want to know that you are getting that thing” +120:48
vishyjbryce: and 3rd place would be storage systems implementing the cinder or glance api20:48
mikaljbryce: for example, Oracle shipping an "OpenStack" with a hypervisor driver we've never seen20:48
jeblairttx, mordred: i disagree with the idea that we're only permitted to hold opinions on technical subjects -- we're quite clearly often concerned with the nature of this software and how it grows20:48
russellbnova virt drivers are very much NON-trivial bits of code, that's a huge part of nova20:49
mordredjeblair: I agree with that20:49
dhellman_mikal: how much of any of the rest of their fork have you seen?20:49
mordredI have a very strong opinion on the fact that people not running swift are not running opensatck20:49
mikaldhellman_: none20:49
notmynamemonitoring not with ceilometer? management not with horizon?20:49
markmc_jeblair, of course we have opinions, the TC as a body doesn't have mandate tho20:49
vishymikal: good point out of tree hypervisors is up there with other cinder drivers20:49
ttxjeblair: objection noted :)20:49
mordredand neither are people running keystone replacements or cinder replacements20:49
theannegentleI am often concerned with the growth for programs that provide resources for all projets20:49
mordredI think none of them should be allowed to use the trademark20:49
vishyhorizon is another good example20:49
mikalI see a lot of announcements from people like Cray and Oracle20:49
mikalBut never any code20:49
mikalAnd that worries me a lot20:49
troytoman1jeblair: I think you should absolutely have opinions - the questions is who makes the decision20:49
mordredI believe that people shipping non-horizon dashboards should not be allowed to call themselves opensatck20:49
ttxat least no mandate for the "Powered by openStack" trademark license program20:49
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dhellman_mikal: +120:50
dhellman_annegentle: +120:50
mordredI believe that people running public clouds that do not run horizon should not be allowed to cal themselves openstack20:50
vishymordred: can you replace the css themes?20:50
mordredand I believe they should all be ashamed of being bad community members20:50
lifelessmordred: what if they don't offer a web UI at all?20:50
vishyor move around panels20:50
ttxmordred: that's only you though.20:50
mordredvishy: of course - I also don't think we should get all legalistic about it all20:50
* troytoman1 hangs his head in shame20:50
mordredttx: yes. I'm extremem20:50
theannegentleon the TC we represent the people making the code patches, and that's the members of swift and horizon and all of integrated now20:50
markmcclainmikal: true I know there are forks of Neutron without code that's been seen20:50
vishymordred: that is far to extreme imo :)20:50
mordredI'm just being very direct about teh opinions I have that are not technical20:50
vishy* too20:51
ttxanyway, let's go back on topic20:51
zaneblifeless: that's ok if it's not a required capability, AIUI20:51
jbrycemarkmc_: i disagree about the mandate. the bylaws set it up so that the decisions about core were board decisions, but based off tc recommendation20:51
ttxi'd like a resolution on that one20:51
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mordredtheannegentle: ++20:51
mordredjbryce: ++20:51
ttxjbryce: based on a set the TC provides, which is the (upstream) integrated release20:51
sdaguejbryce: right, so I think that's the crux of it. The TC made that recommendation with the integration votes for these projects20:51
mordredsdague: ++20:51
markmcclainsdague: ++20:51
theannegentlesdague: correct20:51
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mordredwe'd be happy to makea  formal recommendation if that's helpful20:52
vishysdague: ++20:52
devanandasdague: ++20:52
ttxTC defines set, Board picks subset for trademark usage. that's always how it was meant to be20:52
russellbbut it would be "the entire integrated release"20:52
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mordredrussellb: ++20:52
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ttxIt's all over the bylaws20:52
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troytoman1feels like we are saying the TC recommends the integrated release and the board now needs to decide what modifications (if any) should be made.20:52
ttxlooks like we either lost or flooded zehicle20:52
mordredtroytoman1: yup20:52
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zehicle_at_dellttx, I'm here20:53
russellbtroytoman1: ++20:53
vishyits unfortunate that the number of projects is confusing20:53
jbrycetime check: 7 minutes20:53
ttxzehicle_at_dell: ah good20:53
zehicle_at_dellthing that the TC forcing a decision that will have negative implications20:53
vishybecause it would be way simpler if you could just use which projects you wanted and call each one openstack20:53
ttxOK, so I would like a way forward on that20:53
vishyso if you don’t use swift you can’t say openstack-storage20:53
mordredvishy: you know - I'd be more ok with that than the other thing20:53
vishybut then we’d have way too many trademarks and it would be confusing20:53
zehicle_at_dellI've voiced my position and tried to represent the broader ones that I've heard over the last 18 months20:53
ttxzehicle_at_dell: which negative implication?20:54
theannegentlezehicle_at_dell: negative for whom?20:54
theannegentlelook at me all grammarly20:54
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jbrycevishy: you can have different naming standards under a single license. we already do for OpenStack Powered20:54
zehicle_at_dellI think that this position will lead to vendors forking OpenStack and not contributing20:54
dhellman_theannegentle: show off20:54
mordredzehicle_at_dell: they already do that20:54
vishyjbryce: yeah but do we really want to have 12 of them?20:54
theannegentlezehicle_at_dell: already evidenced20:54
zehicle_at_dellyes, they do20:54
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vishyjbryce: they kinda lose meaning. But that is a board discussion anyway20:54
mordredzehicle_at_dell: most of the cases of vendors we're referencing who are doing these thigns are not contributing and have forked20:54
troytoman1zehicle_at_dell: that's only true if the board decides on the full integrated release - which is far from a given20:54
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zehicle_at_dellthe DefCore position is set to bring them back into contributing upstream as much as possible AND adding tests20:55
ttxzehicle_at_dell: how would designated sections from the TC help ?20:55
mordredzehicle_at_dell: they're not going to, no matter what we do20:55
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ttxcompared to designated section strawman from the board ?20:55
zehicle_at_delltroytoman1, yes.  but I'd rather not have the Board do it w/o the TC20:55
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mordredzehicle_at_dell: stop saying w/o20:55
ttxzehicle: we can still comment on a strawnman20:55
mordredit's "in conflict with"20:55
zehicle_at_dellI think we worked out a compromise position and the TC is not working toward the compromise20:55
ttxbut since you have final call...20:55
russellbnot clear to me how this has anything to do with encouraging contribution20:55
ttxyou should propose the original set20:55
troytoman1zehicle_at_dell: i think that's why we have an RFC on any changes we recommend20:55
ttxtroytoman: +120:55
zehicle_at_dellttx, yes.  Josh and I will work to create a strawman because we think it's the right thing to do20:56
zehicle_at_dellIMHO, the TC could have been leading that20:56
mordredzehicle_at_dell: we did. we made a choice. you just disagree with it20:56
dhellman_zehicle_at_dell: we've *given* you an answer20:56
zehicle_at_dellyes.  that's right20:56
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zehicle_at_dellyou asked why I was being quite20:56
ttxzehicle_at_dell: our answer would be "the integrated release"20:56
ttxwhich is the only answer the TC can give20:56
zehicle_at_dellttx, I understand20:56
ttxsince that's what we work on20:56
zehicle_at_delland will convey that back to the board20:56
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ttxwe can't decide that a subset of what we do is less important20:57
mordredttx: ++20:57
ttxor replaceable20:57
jbrycevishy: we’ve always had the reciprocal where if you don’t have compute, you can be Storage Powered OpenStack…hasn’t seemed to create too much of a problem20:57
russellbttx: ++20:57
ttxwe represent the contributors20:57
zehicle_at_dellttx, I think that's not a real limit.  it's self imposed20:57
ttxthey are all equal20:57
mordredthe ATC's are who voted me in20:57
ttxas soon as we accept them in the integrated release20:57
troytoman1zehicle_at_dell: i think we have an opportunity to make modifications with a business or community rationale and have a discussion around that.20:57
mordredthey are my constituency20:57
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zehicle_at_dellmordred, you have multiple constituencies20:57
ttxwe are just their representants20:57
mordredzehicle_at_dell: in my role as a TC member, I have one20:57
mordredand I am representing them20:57
mordredin my role as a board member, I have a different one20:58
mordredI also believe I'm representing them20:58
sdaguezehicle_at_dell: this is also fundamentally a business decision on the commercial ecosystem. Companies are going to take hits or wins based on the definition. Defining the parameters of the commercial ecosystem seems to be the reason for the board.20:58
mordredbecause I believe a broad definition of opensatck is better for everyone20:58
mordredbut people may disagree with me on that20:58
mordredand I respect their ability to do so20:58
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mordredI do not think it's good for the opensatck business ecosystem to have a minimum definition of openstack20:58
mordredbecause I thnk it makes the word meaningless20:59
zehicle_at_dellI have heard from many people that a minimum one is better than ALL or NONE20:59
mordredand this is as a person who is a massive end-user of openstack clouds20:59
mordredzehicle_at_dell: I doubt most of those people are as heavy users ofopenstack as I am20:59
ttxzehicle_at_dell: it's a trademark policy call, always was.20:59
mordredso as a board member, I will represent that position21:00
zehicle_at_dellI'm happy to take the TC position back the board21:00
russellbsounds good, we're about at time21:00
troytoman1mordred: i'm not sure it is useful to have one so narrow that few can use the trademark21:00
zehicle_at_dellmy role, as always, was to find a compromise21:00
mordredtroytoman1: they TOTALLY can use the trademark21:00
mordredtroytoman1: all they have to do is run the code21:00
mordredwe gave it to them for free even21:00
ttxok, time is up21:00
ttxThanks everyone21:01
jeblairttx: thank you21:01
zehicle_at_dellthanks everyone21:01
mordredtroytoman1: but different opinions are what make the world go aroudn!21:01
mordredthanks zehicle_at_dell !21:01
ttxI think we reached some conclusions, even if they are not universally appreciated21:01
mordredthanks ttx !21:01
sparkycthe current definiton is nova and swift only fyi21:01
markmcclainttx: thanks!21:01
dhellman_zehicle_at_dell, troytoman1, jbryce : thanks for clarifying things today21:01
mordredjbryce: ++21:01
sparkycso expand it :)21:01
sparkycthanks all21:01
sdaguethanks all21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  1 21:01:53 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-01-20.02.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-01-20.02.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-01-20.02.log.html21:01
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ttxdhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, kmestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ?21:03
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ttxmestery, not kmestery21:04
ttx#startmeeting project21:04
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul  1 21:04:14 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:04
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:04
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)"21:04
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'project'21:04
* devananda is lurking21:04
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ttxAgenda for today is available at:21:04
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting21:04
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dolphmttx: (o/)21:04
ttx#topic Actions from previous meeting21:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from previous meeting (Meeting topic: project)"21:05
ttxI'm late with my actions to document SPD/SAD, will get that done this week21:05
ttx#topic News from the 1:1 sync points21:05
*** openstack changes topic to "News from the 1:1 sync points (Meeting topic: project)"21:05
ttxSomething wrong happened with the meeting bot, so we don't have a meeting summary...21:06
ttxSee channel logs at:21:06
ttx#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-relmgr-office/%23openstack-relmgr-office.2014-07-01.log21:06
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ttxA few highlights:21:06
ttxdhellmann (Oslo) wanted to mention there were some issues installing alpha versions of libraries, issues are under investigation21:06
mikalIs that a packaging problem?21:07
ttxOslo also anticipates another update to oslo.db soon (0.3.0) with opportunistic migration test fixes for both sqlalchemy-migrate and alembic21:07
mikali.e. pypi?21:07
ttxa wheel magic fail iirc21:07
dhellman_mikal: something to do with pip not liking alphas in some projects21:07
mikaldhellman_: do you need help on that?21:07
mikaldhellman_: I now employ the author of pypi and would happily ask him to help you21:08
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dhellman_mikal: send him over to the infra guys; I think this was either a mirroring issue (they've been working on moving off of our custom mirror tool at richard's suggestion) or something to do with the tox.ini settings in those projects21:08
devanandadhellman_: thanks for the oslo.db updates! I'll test against Ironic once the patch is updated21:08
dhellman_I'm catching up after a day offline, so I'll have more details tomorrow21:09
ttx#topic Other program news21:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Other program news (Meeting topic: project)"21:09
mikaldhellman_: ahhh, ok. The infra guys already know about Richard, so it sounds like this is already happening without me21:09
ttxInfra, QA, Docs... anything you'd like to mention ?21:09
dhellman_mikal: yeah, I think so21:09
mikaldhellman_: I shall just take credit like a good manager21:09
dhellman_mikal: ++21:09
ttxjeblair, annegentle, mtreinish ^21:09
jeblairoh yeah, on the mirror front21:09
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jeblairit appears our new mirror actually just caught a wheel-related error, which is neat21:10
mtreinishttx: nothing from me today21:10
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jeblairbut yeah, we have a bit more work to finish the mirror infra, hopefully will be in place today or tomorrow21:10
dhellman_jeblair: cool21:11
jeblairhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/103991/ is the problem it caught21:11
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ttx#topic Horizon Juno features from other projects should be blueprinted now21:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Horizon Juno features from other projects should be blueprinted now (Meeting topic: project)"21:11
ttxdavid-lyle: o/21:11
ttxdavid-lyle: care to talk about that ?21:12
ttxI'll parrot SlickNik's response21:12
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david-lyleIn the past, we've had a few key features brought as must haves in Horizon late in the process21:12
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david-lyleI just wanted to make sure the project teams have made visible via blueprint in Horizon any such key features so we have a better chance of landing them cleanly21:13
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ttx<SlickNik> There's a couple of trove changes to horizon that we do need.21:13
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ttx<SlickNik> This one is needed for the neutron support:21:13
ttx<SlickNik> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101055/21:13
ttx<SlickNik> And this one for datastore support in Trove:21:14
ttx<SlickNik> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/75269/21:14
ttxdavid-lyle: not sure he has blueprints up for BOTH21:14
ttxthere is one for the latter21:14
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david-lylethe first has a bug attached21:14
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david-lyleso those are on our radar21:14
ttxok, good21:14
ttxanyone else with last-minute surprise things for Juno Horizon ?21:15
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dolphmi know this bp is generating some interest https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/federated-horizon21:16
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david-lyledolphm: ok, that one has stalled a bit, but we can pick it up again if keystone is ready for us to21:18
ttxok, I think we can switch to...21:18
ttx#topic Open discussion21:18
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ttxAnything else, anyone ?21:18
eglynnit would be great to have a TL;DR on what impact the tortuous DefCore discussionwill actually have on PTLs and projects21:19
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eglynn(...from a practical PoV)21:19
* notmyname puts his hand down21:19
* mikal steps back21:19
eglynnnotmyname: sorry, missed your hand there ... go ahead21:19
notmynameyour's sounds much more interesting :-)21:19
eglynncool enough21:20
dhellman_That discussion isn't complete yet.21:20
ttxeglynn: I expect the board to come up with a strawman proposal for designated sections21:20
mesteryttx: Looking at the dates selected for SPD/SAD, I may push Neutron's out a week, since I haven't announced this yet and SPD is this week already.21:20
ttxand call for general RFC on it21:20
dhellman_#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-01-20.02.log.html21:20
* mestery should have sent email after last week's meeting.21:20
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eglynnit seems to be an incredibly important discussion that at least started somewhat "under the radar"21:21
mesterymikal: Did you note the nova SPD/SAD already publicly?21:21
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eglynn... or maybe just wasn't paying attention at the crucial points in time21:21
mikalmestery: yeah, there was an email21:21
* mikal finds it21:21
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mesterymikal: Cool, thanks. I'll send something for Neutron ASAP.21:21
notmynamettx: is it still "designated sections" or at the whole project level now?21:22
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mikalThe subject was "[Nova] Timeline for the rest of the Juno release"21:22
ttxeglynn: I think a process with a clear open RFC will be more inclusive21:22
mesterymikal: Got it, thanks!21:22
eglynnttx: fair enough, I'll respond to the RFC when it appears21:22
ttxnotmyname: depends a bit on what process the board elects to choose to go forward21:23
ttxnotmyname: if they insist that we answer on designated sections, the TC's answer is "all the integrated release" being designated, since that's what we select and produce21:23
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ttxbut we suggested that they come up with a strawman proposal and ask for community RFC on it21:24
* eglynn is liking that TC response21:24
ttxeglynn: as the representation of contributors, the TC can't really pick favorites within the integrated release21:24
ttxwe represent all the contributors to all the integrated release21:25
eglynnttx: that's a very fair point21:25
reedttx, agreed21:25
ttxthat's the set we define21:25
ttxwe can't make a subset out of it21:25
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ttxespecially for trademak policy purposes21:25
ttxthat's really the board's right, mandate and prerogative21:25
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eglynnttx: absolutely ... cool, sounds very reasonable21:26
notmynameagreed 100%21:26
ttxeglynn: I heard a blogpost might be coming up21:26
eglynn... I'll watch out for that, it would be useful21:26
ttxhope it clarifies21:27
ttxnotmyname: you ahd another question/comment/topic21:28
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notmynameah. yes, just a small FYI21:28
ttxwe still have time :)21:28
notmynamewe're doing final QA work on the next swift release (2.0), and that will probably be landing late this week or early next week21:29
notmyname /end21:29
notmynameit includes storage policies, which are a kinda big deal (tm)21:29
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* ttx hopes the next swift contrib tshirt will be "storage policies are kind of a big deal"21:32
ttxok, anything else, anyone ?21:32
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mikal"Just so you know, Storage Policies are kind of a big deal in Swift"21:33
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dolphmttx: world cup time?21:34
eglynnstill 0-021:34
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:34
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul  1 21:34:34 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:34
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-01-21.04.html21:34
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-01-21.04.txt21:34
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-01-21.04.log.html21:34
dolphmeglynn: usa is winning* 0-021:34
eglynndolphm: ... very similar to the Irish attitude :)21:35
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