Tuesday, 2014-07-15

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yamahata#startmeeting servicevm-device-manager05:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 15 05:01:01 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.05:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.05:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager'05:01
yamahataDo we have bob?05:01
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yamahataGive him a minute05:01
yamahatabmelande: hi05:01
bmelandeyamahata: Hi05:02
bmelandes3wong: Hi05:02
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s3wongbmelande: hello05:02
bmelandeOnly two minutes late, improving... :-)05:02
yamahatahi everyone, let's start05:02
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yamahata#topic Announcement05:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcement (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:02
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bmelandenatarajk: hi05:02
yamahataThis week not so much to announce05:02
yamahatasorry I haven't keep up with the api review.05:03
yamahata#action yamahata process api back log05:03
s3wongyamahata: only that it is 3 days away from the spec approval deadline, so we are all busy trying to get specs approved :-)05:03
yamahatas3wong: yeah. Definitively.05:04
bmelandeyamahata: I'm also behind05:04
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yamahataThe spec review is moved to gerrit system.05:04
yamahataSo please move the discussion to gerrit.05:05
natarajkyamahata: i added my comments last week05:05
yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103724/ servicevm api review05:05
bmelandeyamahata: will do05:05
yamahatanatarajk: Yes, thank you. I'm aware of it.05:05
yamahatasorry for not timely response.05:05
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yamahataI surely will review it. It might be after Neutron spec approval deadline05:06
natarajki know you are busy with Juno specs :)05:06
yamahataany announcement from anyone?05:06
yamahata#topic api discussion05:07
*** openstack changes topic to "api discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:07
yamahataIt seems every one is try to catch up the discussion. Do we have special issues to discuss here?05:08
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s3wongyamahata: I put my comments on gerrit already (as well as the gdoc)05:08
yamahatas3wong: thanks, okay let's continue discussion there.05:08
yamahatalet's move on05:09
yamahata#topic terminology05:09
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*** openstack changes topic to "terminology (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:09
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yamahataLast week we discussed a bit to unify servicevm and dnrm.05:09
yamahataThe first difference is terminology. hosting device vs resource05:09
yamahataI think everyone has their opinion on terminology.05:10
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natarajkyamahata: after reviewing your specs, i am fine with the terminologies documented in the api spec05:10
yamahatapersonally I don't stick which terminology, but we need to come consensus05:10
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yamahatanatarajk: So hosting device and template is acceptable for you?05:11
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yamahatanatarajk: wow great.05:11
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yamahataThis issue is resolved.05:12
yamahatanext topic05:12
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yamahata#topic l3-routervm-plugin05:12
*** openstack changes topic to "l3-routervm-plugin (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:12
yamahataFor reference l3-servicevm-plugin, I've started with Bob's implementation05:12
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yamahataI'm trying to identify which is common and which is the csr specific.05:13
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bmelandeyamamata: have you gotten any indication if your BP will get clearance for Juno?05:13
yamahatabmelande: Not yet.05:14
yamahataThere are no response yet. I'm still waiting from Kyle.05:14
bmelandeyamahata: Ok.05:14
yamahata#linke https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101002/ csr1kv routervm05:14
yamahataI started this source code.05:14
yamahatabmelande: This repo is the preferable one for me to start with? Or do you have any better public repo?05:15
bmelandeyamahata: which repo?05:15
yamahataI mean the gerrit repo or github repo whose branch is csr1kv_for_routing_juno05:16
yamahataI chose the gerrit repo above because the patch size is smaller05:16
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bmelandeyamahata: The cisco repo contains the "full" version in that csr1kv_for_routing_juno branch. Then what I submit for review is a boiled down minimal version, to have any chance of getting it in by Juno.05:17
bmelandeThe one on gerrit does not involve managing a pool of VMs, the full one does.05:18
yamahatabmelande: I see.05:18
yamahatabmelande: I'm wondering how to manage a pool of VMs05:19
yamahataIt's because both csr1kv and dnrm implements VM pooling05:19
yamahataSo I'm trying to figure out where the feature live in.05:19
bmelandeI believe the gerrit patch is more similar to the Brocade patch (without having actually seen that code)05:20
natarajkyamahata: you can look at the supervisor service in dnrm for VM pool management code05:20
yamahataDNRM implement pooling in dnrm server.05:20
yamahataOn the other hand csr1kv implements in Neutron server for now.05:20
yamahataSo It's a issue.05:20
natarajkyamahata: we are planning a separate OpenStack service anyway05:21
yamahatanatarajk: yes.05:21
natarajkso you can take a look at dnrm and start from there05:21
yamahatanatarajk: Yes, I had a look at it.05:22
yamahataAnd I'm looking at csr1kv code trying to firgure out the difference05:22
bmelandeyamahata: the pool management in the full version is kept as a separate device manager plugin so it is quite self-contained.05:22
yamahatabmelande: great.05:23
yamahataSo the first working version won't implement pooling, and then as the second phase, we would like add pooling feature.05:23
yamahataDoes this approach make sense?05:24
bmelandeyamahata: +105:24
yamahataOr won't work?05:24
s3wongyamahata: +1 - we should do it phase by phase05:24
bmelandegives more time to discuss it too05:24
yamahata#agreed the first version won't implement pooling feature. it will be addressed at 2nd phase.05:24
bmelandesimilarities, differences05:25
bmelandeOne thing regarding the router servicde plugin for neutron:05:25
bmelandeif the flavor framework actually converges and gets done by Juno I belivee the way to go is to make a router serviuce plugin aligned with that.05:26
yamahatabmelande: +105:26
s3wongbmelande: I think it will, it is on schedule for J-205:26
s3wongbmelande: in fact, I believe enikanorov has already started coding it (and the spec is the one from markmcclain)05:27
bmelandeIt would mean that there could be drivers in such a plugin for the different VM-based routers05:27
bmelandes3wong: yes, I got that understanding too.05:27
yamahata#topic open discussion05:28
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:28
bmelandeSo it is good to keep that flavor framework in mind for any new router service plugin.05:29
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s3wongbmelande: +105:29
yamahatabmelande: surely +105:29
bmelandeAlso, Gary Duan (varmor) started a modular router service plugin for the old service type framework that he might have plans to rework for flavor framework,05:30
yamahatabmelande: sounds great. any link?05:30
s3wongbmelande: hmm... OK, we should contact garyduan (he is online?) for his patch05:31
s3wonggaryduan: hello?05:31
bmelandeSo we might want to check with him about that, and (especially if rtouter service plugin gets pushed to K), have a joined effort on the plugin.05:31
s3wongbmelande: honestly we would probably have to expect it to get pushed out to 'K'05:32
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bmelandes3wong: Yes that is not unlikely unfortunately given the number of BPs around...05:33
bmelandeGary's old BP for router service plugin for service type framework: #link: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/l3-router-service-type-framework05:34
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yamahatabmelande: thanks for the link05:35
bmelandeIt uses the pre-/post-commit pattern from ML2.05:35
s3wongbmelande: wow, November of last year...05:35
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yamahataWe are running out of time. any other topic?05:35
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bmelandes3wong: Yeah, ages ago.... :-)05:36
s3wongbmelande: of course, who would do anything with service type framework now :-)05:36
yamahataLet me raise the last topic(from me)05:37
bmelandes3wong: Nah, let's throw that one back in the flavor discussion so that it can take another 40 iterations... :-)05:37
yamahataThe tacker repo is empty now.05:38
yamahataDo you have any objections for me to self-approve my first patches to push them into the repo?05:38
yamahataThe code may not be in so good shape,05:38
yamahatabut it's very early development stage.05:39
yamahataSo it would make sense to have a kind of working code in repo.05:39
s3wongyamahata: sure, do you need bmelande and my +2's? :-)05:39
yamahatas3wong: If you're fine, I'll go without your +2.05:40
yamahataI just wanted to make sure before self-approving05:40
natarajklet's get some code in :)05:41
s3wongyamahata: damn, wanted to exercise the privilege :-) --- please go ahead and push it in05:41
bmelandeyamahata: I'm ok with that, especially the early ones, remove neutron code etc05:41
yamahatathanks, I'll push it tonight.05:41
yamahataUntil that, feel free to add +2 and get familiar with it.05:42
yamahataany other issues?05:42
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yamahataOkay, thanks and see you next week.05:43
yamahataIf we like, we can continue discussion on #tacker05:44
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"05:44
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 15 05:44:20 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)05:44
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-15-05.01.html05:44
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-15-05.01.txt05:44
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-15-05.01.log.html05:44
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s3wongyamahata: not #openstack-tacker?05:44
yamahatas3wong: no. #tacker.05:44
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yamahatas3wong: I should have prepend openstack-. I regret my choise05:45
s3wongyamahata: yeah :-)05:45
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sc68calHello all13:59
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sc68cal#startmeeting neutron_ipv614:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 15 14:00:20 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6'14:00
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sc68cal#info J-2 is next week14:02
sc68cal#topic blueprints14:03
*** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)"14:03
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sc68calI spoke with Kyle yesterday about the dnsmasq slaac blueprint - it will be marked as superceded by the radvd blueprint14:04
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aveigathat leaves only the radvd RA announcement BP for J2?14:04
aveigaI didn't see any others14:04
* sc68cal digs up link14:05
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xuhanpsc68cal, does that mean we will need to delay the dnsmasq stateless/stateful BP for K?14:05
xuhanpI haven't received a lot of comments yet14:05
aveigaxuhanp: it has a dep on the radvd BP, right?14:05
xuhanpaveiga, as we discussed last time, it should not14:06
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xuhanpthe RA can be from external of radvd14:06
sc68calxuhanp: Let me check, but it should be scheduled for j-314:06
xuhanpof -> or14:06
aveigaxuhanp: ah, yes14:06
xuhanpsc68cal, thanks14:06
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dane_leblancI'm still waiting for core on the multi-prefix, so don't know if that will get deferred.14:07
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sc68caldane_leblanc: I think it's probably going to be deferred to K14:08
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xuhanpsc68cal, seems like the dnsmasq one is not on the list, either. should we talk to Kyle about this?14:09
aveigadane_leblanc: I think they're overlaoded on reviews for J and are focusing down on essentials14:09
aveigadane_leblanc: I was told to not even submit the flaoting IPv6 BP14:09
sc68calxuhanp: I'll ping Kyle about your spec today14:09
xuhanpsc68cal, thanks a lot14:10
sc68calthis is the one, correct? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102411/14:10
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xuhanpsc68cal, that's correct14:11
sc68calxuhanp: cool, I'll reach out to Kyle. I think we should be able to get it into J, since there was some churn over radvd vs dnsmasq earlier this cycle14:12
xuhanpsounds great14:12
sc68calhaving code ready to merge will help the case - how goes progress on that front?14:12
aveigaxuhanp sc68cal I think the stateful bit is necessary to claim real IPv6 support for J, as well14:13
aveigait's pretty integral to getting feature parity with IPv414:13
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xuhanphere is the patch for stateful dhcp.14:13
xuhanpstill working on the stateless case.14:14
sc68calaveiga: I agree14:14
xuhanpsc68cal, hope you got my email about the question to dnsmasq14:14
aveigaxuhanp: very nice, I'll dig into this later today14:14
sc68calxuhanp: I did, and forwarded to aveiga ;)14:14
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sc68calI'll try and take a look sometime this week14:15
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aveigaxuhanp: still catching up on my email, I was sort of AFK all last week14:15
xuhanpaveiga, no problem14:16
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sc68calbaoli: ping - are you available for the meeting?14:18
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baolisorry, was tied up with something14:19
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sc68calhow goes unit testing for the radvd patch?14:19
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baoliHenry just put his unit test in the patch.14:20
baoliSo please check it out if it's sufficient14:20
sc68calok - i'll keep an eye on the review - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102648/14:21
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sc68cal#topic bugs14:22
*** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)"14:22
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baolixuhanp, does my comments make sense?14:23
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xuhanpbaoli, I replied your comments actually14:23
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xuhanpcan you take a look?14:23
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baolixuhanp, I replied but somehow didn't click the review button.14:24
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xuhanp:D I will check soon14:25
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baolixuhanp, thanks. Basically, the concern is that the user may enter an address from a SLAAC subnet, thinking it'll be assigned to the vm's port. But that's not going to happen.14:26
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xuhanpbaoli, I see your concern now.14:27
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xuhanpmaybe some error message should be prompted instead14:27
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baolixuhanp, that's right14:28
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xuhanpbaoli, will consider that in my next patch14:30
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baolixuhanp, cool. thanks for taking the comments.14:31
xuhanpbaoli, welcome14:31
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sc68cal#topic open discussion14:33
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dane_leblancI have some questions about Tempest tests14:34
dane_leblancFor the API tempest tests, are there more tests in the works to test more combos of attributes?14:35
aveigadane_leblanc: not yet, because most of them aren't implemented14:35
dane_leblancAlso, has anyone started on IPv6 scenario tests?14:35
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sc68calYes - we have scenario tests in progress by SridharG14:37
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sc68calWhen the radvd patch lands we'll be able to do more via tempest14:38
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dane_leblancsc68cal, okay, we've got a team that might be able to help out14:38
sc68caldane_leblanc: ok - please reach out to SridharG to coordinate14:38
dane_leblancSo I'm trying to see what needs doin'14:38
dane_leblancsc68cal, will do14:39
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sc68calIf there isn't any other business, I'll give everyone back 15 minutes14:43
xuhanpthanks sc68cal for hosting the meeting!14:44
* aveiga crosses fingers for working v6 in J214:45
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sc68calgood luck everyone, we'll talk next week!14:47
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"14:47
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 15 14:47:48 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:47
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-07-15-14.00.html14:47
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-07-15-14.00.txt14:47
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-07-15-14.00.log.html14:47
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n0ano#startmeeting gantt15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 15 15:00:52 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'gantt'15:00
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n0anoanyone here to talk about the scheduler?15:01
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n0anonot many admitting to being here today15:03
n0ano#topic forklift status15:03
*** openstack changes topic to "forklift status (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:03
bauzasjaypipes ? Yathi ?15:03
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bauzasn0ano: johnthetubaguy is currently having a meeting conflict, possible to delay this topic ?15:04
bauzasn0ano: are there other topics to discuss ?15:04
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n0anopretty much the only topic unless there's anything else anyone wants to raise?15:04
jaypipeso/ (sorry, was finishing reply to PaulMurray)15:05
johnthetubaguyI am lingering, but will not be very responsive15:05
n0anomaybe we can start on this anyway...15:05
n0anojaypipes, seems like you have the most concerns about the split, care to express them?15:06
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bauzasn0ano: do you want me to summarize the outcome?15:06
n0anobauzas, sure, go ahead15:06
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bauzaslong story short, there are some patches in review15:07
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bauzasone spec is still not validated https://review.openstack.org/8989315:07
johnthetubaguywe are past the spec freeze date now, so will have to do an exception for that15:07
bauzasso that means we will miss the Juno target unless we got an exception (little chances tho)15:08
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johnthetubaguyI am going to try and make a list of those today15:08
bauzassome patches can be reviewed tho :15:08
bauzasone small and quickwin patch is here https://review.openstack.org/10350315:08
bauzasthe 103503 is really small and not disruptive, so I expect it to be merged soon15:09
bauzasonce the 103503 gets merged, the only API method for Scheduler will be select_destinations()15:09
jaypipesn0ano: I don't see the urgency or use cases, frankly.15:10
bauzasthe 2 above patches (82778 and 104556) aim to add a second interface for publishing stats to the scheduler15:10
bauzasand here comes the debate :)15:10
jaypipeswas hoping Yathi could show me a use case that demonstrates what users of OpenStack would benefit from a split scheduler.15:10
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bauzasso, just to end up my summary15:11
Yathijaypipes: sure15:11
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jaypipesbauzas: yes, please do.15:11
* PaulMurray sorry I'm late - in another meeting at same time15:12
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YathiTo be crisp, I can use the scenario, we demoed in the summits at HKG and ATlanta.. - compute-volume affinity15:12
bauzasthe goal over Juno is to define what will be the next scheduler API15:12
Yathithis is clearly a cross-service concern.. with nova and cinder data being used to come up with a unified placement decision15:12
mspreitzIf by split scheduler you mean use case for only the forklift, I do not think there is one.  The forklift is prep for more interesting work.  Like what Yathi said.15:13
dduttabauzas: gr8 idea ... have you looked at the server group extension .... would it help to review this as a potential starting point ... we pushed it in I15:13
bauzasmspreitz: +115:13
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n0anomspreitz, +115:13
jaypipesYathi: that isn't a use case.15:13
bauzasthe goal of the split is to do the necessary prework for Gantt15:13
jaypipesthat isn't a use case either.15:13
bauzasddutta: could you please give me a pointer ?15:14
n0anothat has alway been the case, the split alone creates a baseline for further work15:14
mspreitzjaypipes: right..15:14
Yathihaving such cross-service concerns is best addressed using a split scheduler15:14
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Yathithe split scheduler will have a unified view15:14
mspreitzthe use cases were outlined earlier in discussions of broader placement aka scheduling15:14
bauzasI like johnthetubaguy's idea to create a community over Gantt15:14
jaypipesn0ano: that further work is not a use case either.15:14
n0anoYathi's example is a use case, that's a further work item15:14
bauzasjaypipes: if by usecase, you want to express a customer story ?15:14
jaypipesbauzas: bingo.15:15
Yathijaypipes: So I would say - "cross-service scheduling" "unified scheduling" are all use cases15:15
dduttajaypipes: here is a use case ..... say you want to place a group of VMs with a policy very close to storage blobs within a network distance of x15:15
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jaypipesYathi: no, those are features.15:15
bauzasjaypipes: ok, lemme play then :)15:15
Yathiddutta: +115:15
jaypipesddutta: ty. that approaches a use case.15:15
PaulMurrayjaypipes, we have the volume example as a use case - but I haven't used it to motivate a split15:15
bauzasjaypipes: as a user, I want to place my volumes close to my compute resources15:16
jaypipesbauzas: what does "close" mean?15:16
Yathiyes my customer stories,  that is the customer story we demoed in HKG and in ATlanta as part of the NFV talk we had..15:16
dduttaanother use case:  place a VM closest to a group a VMs but avoid a bunch of storage nodes (coz its redhot)15:16
bauzasjaypipes: as an user, I want to take benefit of the datacenter proximity15:16
PaulMurrayjaypipes, in our case volumes are not accessible from different AZ15:16
bauzasjaypipes: as an user, I want to place my VMs on bisectional network15:16
jaypipesbauzas: how does a user know that there is a bisectional network?15:17
PaulMurrayjaypipes, as a user I want my instance to be placed in the same az as my volume15:17
jaypipesPaulMurray: that is eminently doable without a split scheduler.15:17
mspreitzwho guys on the AZ stuff, I think that may be handled differently15:17
mspreitzIsn't the AZ already chosen by the client?15:17
PaulMurrayjaypipes, or rather, as a user I don't want to bother with az, but I want my instances to be able to use my volumes15:17
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dduttaWe can just document all this in a shared doc15:18
mspreitzs/AZ/rack/ and now we can talk15:18
PaulMurrayjaypipes, I did say I didn't use it to motivate a split15:18
bauzasjaypipes: correct, lemme express the usecase differently15:18
Yathijaypipes: As a user, I would like to ensure that my VM is scheduled in a network that has x bandwidth15:18
jaypipesmspreitz: cloud users don't (and shouldn't) know which  rack their stuff is on.15:18
bauzasjaypipes: as an operator, I want to provide entreprise-grade network for golden customers15:18
dduttahttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZOz5S9rZFYiwdCLkQM9Th9c7VKln152skO7NcKZDnUM/edit ???15:18
jaypipesYathi: that is already doable with metric.15:18
mspreitzjaypipes: right, exactly, cloud users should not identify racks.  But they should be able to say "different racks", to get better reliability15:19
jaypipesbauzas: that is a neutron thing and not a scheduler thing.15:19
jaypipesbauzas: i.e. neutron's proposed flavor framework.15:19
Yathijaypipes: you don't want to complicate the logic and bring in all the concerns within Nova.. hence the motivation for a split15:19
jaypipesmspreitz: no they shouldn't, IMO.15:19
dduttajaypipes: I think there are 2 aspects of a scheduler .... 1) figure out where to place 2) schedule15:19
bauzasddutta: +115:19
jaypipesddutta: no.15:19
dduttaI think the placement should be taken out15:19
Yathijaypipes: first step is to decide where to place., and then complete the scheduling15:20
jaypipesddutta: that may be true for a kernel process scheduler. not for a compute VM scheduler. it's all about placement. nothing else.15:20
dduttaif you need a bunch of info to place why put it in nova for now15:20
* bauzas tries to follow both the chatty conversation and read jaypipes's reply on the -dev list. Hard.15:20
dduttathe fact its in nova is historic15:20
jaypipesddutta: NO. the fact that *scheduling* (i.e. run instance) is in the ova scheduler is historical. NOT placement.15:20
dduttaand you could always put everything in nova and talk to other services ... we have demo-ed that too :)15:20
Yathijaypipes: Also look at SOlver Scheduler https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/solver-scheduler..15:21
dduttabut what would that serve15:21
jaypipesYathi: no use cases there either. sorry :(15:21
dduttaI gave you 2 use cases :)15:21
PaulMurrayjaypipes, of course, run_instance is not done through scheduler now15:21
bauzasjaypipes: saw my email about people concerned ? I do accept these as non-usecases indeed15:21
jaypipeswe need to stop thinking about the nova scheduler as a kernel thread/process scheduler.15:21
YathiJaypipes: I gave you customer use cases earlier.. and so did ddutta.. now I am moving to the motivation for a split15:21
jaypipesPaulMurray: right, which is why I said that was historical.15:21
bauzasjaypipes: I'm seeing the scheduler as the first piece of a SLA engine15:22
dduttabauzas: +115:22
jaypipeswe need to stop thinking about the nova scheduler as a kernel thread/process scheduler.15:22
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jaypipeswe need to stop thinking about the nova scheduler as a kernel thread/process scheduler.15:22
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Yathijaypipes:  So regarding solver scheduler.. imagine the difficultly we are having convincing the community to have such smart scheduling aspects within Nova15:22
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bauzasjaypipes: ie the scheduler is responsible for handling a contract in between the user (or operator thru a flavor/hint/whatever) and the system15:22
jaypipesYathi: yes, there is difficulty there because it doesn't meet many use cases.15:22
mspreitzjaypipes: what do you mean by "we need to stop thinking about the nova scheduler as a kernel thread/process scheduler" ?15:22
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jaypipesit's a mostly-academic exercise.15:23
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bauzasjaypipes: I guess you know the pets vs. cattle story ?15:23
YathiA split scheduler. .meant for doing placement as a service. will hopefully be the best place for newer placement decision logics15:23
jaypipesbauzas: of course.15:23
bauzasjaypipes: so if I want to have pets?15:23
dduttajaypipes: I think there are quite a few use cases if you want to use Openstack for interesting applications like NFV ....15:23
jaypipesmspreitz: everyone seems to think of the Nova scheduler in terms of something that is divvying out time slices to a variety of callers (fair scheduler, smart solver, etc). that isn't what Nova scheduler is about.15:24
jaypipesbauzas: screw pets?15:24
* bauzas noting it...15:24
n0anojaypipes, I haven't heard about time slices, more about best placement taking into account different metrics15:24
jaypipesand NFV, as I mentioned on the ML, have done a lousy job in specifying/describing actual use cases15:24
mspreitzjaypipes: I did not notice such a confusion15:24
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mspreitzEven for cattle, we want to say stuff about the herd and how it shoud be distributed.15:25
jaypipesbeyond stuff that really means "whhhaaaah, my telco IT department doesn't want to rearchitect our giant monolithic NFV component to use a cloud environment! Can't the cloud infra do everything for me? Whaaah."15:25
jaypipessorry for being frank,15:25
bauzasjaypipes: you're welcome to express your feelings tomorrow in #openstack-meeting-alt ;)15:26
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dduttajaypipes: Its not just 1 telco use case. When we wanted to speed hadoop up, we needed the affinity use cases ....15:26
jaypipesmspreitz: the defining characteristic of cattle VMs is that they don't matter. any other VM can take their place, and failure of the VM is expected and accounted for.15:26
mspreitzjaypipes: frank is good, but I'm not here because of crying by a telco IT department15:26
mspreitzjaypipes: exactly, pets vs cattle is about main of content, we are talking now about placement15:26
dduttajaypipes: for a bunch of the use cases, we felt placement across services is imp and currently everything runs in nova and we need to make calls to network and storage15:27
jaypipesddutta: I'd rather see the nova scheduler be able to take inputs from things like neutron that would be usable in placement decisions, than break nova scheduler out of nova.15:27
bauzasby saying the pets metaphor, I was expressing an usecase :)15:27
jaypipesmspreitz: I know you're not. sorry for making it seem that way, apologies.15:27
bauzas"Openstack, please leave me have pets"15:28
dduttajaypipes: clearly thats another way to do it. In fact Yathi/I have demo-ed that route too ... we used network distances and storage affinity in a demo 2 summits ago15:28
n0anojaypipes, I thinkwe all want the scheduler to take inputs from multiple services, we just think that will be easier if the scheduler is a separte project15:28
bauzasn0ano: violent agreement from me15:28
dduttajaypipes: we are fine with that too but it looks messy beyond a point15:28
jaypipesn0ano: and I believe the interfaces for taking those inputs need to be cleaned up and exposed properly before a split is reasonable15:28
Yathijaypipes: this was from our session in HongKong: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1BgK1q7gl5nkKWy3zLkP1t_SNmjl6nh66S0jHdP0-zbY/edit?pli=115:29
dduttajaypipes: but yes we "could" do it that way .... question is "should" we?15:29
mspreitzI really think pets vs. cattle is beside the point.  Even for cattle you want to say stuff like "keep the cattle spread out", "put each cow near a watering hole", ...15:29
jaypipesmspreitz: sure, no real disagreement from me on that.15:29
n0anojaypipes, the 3 patches bauzas talked about are the attempt to clean up the interfaces15:29
bauzasn0ano: thanks15:30
jaypipesn0ano: yeah, but it's the resource tracking piece that is missing.15:30
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jaypipesand having the scheduler actually be responsible for the claims of resources.15:30
jaypipeswe can paper over that problem by putting interfaces into the scheduler to update resources, but that's not solving the main problem of the scheduler not owning and distributing the claims themselves.15:31
bauzasjaypipes: if we consider that update_resource_stats is a viable interface, the thing of putting the ResourceTracker in Gantt or not won't change that interface15:31
n0anojaypipes, we're looking at the RT part, if we decide that is a critical piece that needs to be done first we can add it, that will definitely miss Juno15:31
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jaypipesbauzas: see above, I don't think it's a viable interface.15:31
dduttaCould we list down use cases here ... for Jaypipes .... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZOz5S9rZFYiwdCLkQM9Th9c7VKln152skO7NcKZDnUM/edit?userstoinvite=ybudupi@gmail.com#heading=h.d4hunb4yodwi15:31
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bauzasddutta: I love etherpads :)15:31
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dduttathis could be a very productive exercise .... we list down use cases and see how we could implement it within the current scheduler15:31
jaypipesddutta: ++15:32
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dduttaok https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/SchedulerUseCases15:32
dduttathen here15:32
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bauzasddutta: thanks15:32
jaypipesddutta: and annotate use cases that could be satisfied with small changes to interfaces inside Nova scheduler (without breaking it out)15:32
jaypipesddutta: and annotate use cases that absolutely cannot be solved without Gantt.15:32
bauzasjaypipes: can't see above where you say it's not viable :)15:32
dduttajaypipes: sure15:32
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jaypipesand please remember that "implement solver scheduler" is not a use case :)15:33
PaulMurrayjaypipes, shall we do the same for scheduler owning claims15:33
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Yathijaypipes: but you do realize that nothing is impossible.. you can probably have everything within Nova15:33
PaulMurrayjaypipes, annotate things that can't be done with/without scheduler owning claims15:33
jaypipesbauzas: not viable because the scheduler doesn't own the claim (the compute worker still does, AFAICT from your patches)?15:33
jaypipesYathi: eh, exactly ;)15:33
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n0anoYathi, +1 (but clarity is obvious isolation is still good)15:34
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Yathibut what makes best sense for a separation of concern with Gantt is what we need to figure out15:34
jaypipesPaulMurray: sure, although in that case, the claim stuff is about removing locks and allowing the scheduler to have race-free operations.15:34
bauzasI'm just feeling we're redoing the wheel from the Icehouse and Juno summits... :)15:34
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jaypipesPaulMurray: so, less of ause case, more of an implementation detail15:34
bauzasie. "do we need an external scheduler?"15:35
jaypipesbauzas: sorry :(15:35
bauzasI was thinking this question was answered15:35
bauzasnah, lemme be more precise15:35
bauzasjaypipes: I mean, splitting the current scheduler is not that perfect, but it was agreed to do refactoring stuff first and provide something better after15:36
dduttaI think we could build any scheduler use case with the current Nova scheduler + a bunch of interactions with NEutron/Cinder/Swift. I think the question we are asking is what would we lose if its a separate piece ....15:36
jaypipesbauzas: so we are mostly disagreeing on the level of refactoring required before a split.15:37
bauzasjaypipes: the thing is, I won't be able to join the mid-cycle meetup where this kind of question needs to be debated15:37
jaypipesbauzas: yes?15:37
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bauzasjaypipes: yey, that's why we ran a session over here in ATL15:37
bauzasjaypipes: in order to tackle the level of changes15:37
jaypipesbauzas: understood. there's only so many places one can be at any given time, though ;)15:38
bauzasas johnthetubaguy said, I just don't want to throw the baby with the water :)15:38
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bauzasjaypipes: yeah, I know we're all humans, so it's impossible to be at all sessions15:38
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n0anoI still think, from a high level, cleaning up the library, DB and RT are the 3 refactorings that need to be done and then a split is reasonable.15:38
jaypipesbauzas: what is the baby, though? is the baby "a separate scheduler service", or is the baby "our users will be able to do X"? if the former, I don't really see the problem.15:39
jaypipesn0ano: sure, ++15:39
bauzasn0ano: the debate here is that jaypipes is feeling that refactoring the RT will impact the library15:40
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bauzasjaypipes: good question15:40
n0anowell, the lib spec is approved patches waiting, we need to get the DB spec approved and we need to do the RT spec/patches15:40
dduttaalso could we spend some cycles next meeting to discuss the use cases ... we can all work on it https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/SchedulerUseCases ..... this exercise has not been done from what I remember15:41
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dduttalets s=do it15:41
n0anoif the RT impacts the lib that's just part of the work, I don't see a problem.15:41
bauzasjaypipes: the baby is maybe the violent agreement we had from the community to split out the scheduler15:41
n0anoddutta, +1, everyone look at the etherpad this week, I don't want to try to do that one the fly right now15:42
mspreitzI want users to be able to express cross-service placement constraints and have a solution found even if it can only be found by considering both kinds of resources in one unified placement problem.15:42
bauzasddutta: could you please reply to the -dev thread and give us this link in there ?15:42
dduttabauzas: thanks15:42
bauzasddutta: people who weren't able to attend this meeting can still have good usecases15:42
dduttawill do15:42
n0ano#action update the use case etherpad at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/SchedulerUseCases15:42
Yathijaypipes, as another long term use case:  I need to figure out the best placement both for my VM and for the Volume that it will be attached to..15:42
bauzasddutta: cool thanks15:42
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bauzasn0ano: who's update ? :D15:42
Yathithis combined scheduling.. is something would be possible only by a split scheduler that unifies everything15:42
Yathiand as a separate service15:43
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n0ano#action all update the use case etherpad at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/SchedulerUseCases15:43
bauzasagain, as said, I'm feeling the split as something already agreed and validated (aka. "the baby")15:43
* n0ano needs to learn how to use meetbot15:43
mspreitzmaybe not "the baby", but an agreed step along the way15:44
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jaypipesYathi: so, let me reword your use case above...15:44
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jaypipesYathi: "As a cloud user, I want my VM placed somewhere where volume XYZ is 'near'"15:45
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mspreitzjaypipes: no, it's more like "give me a VM and a volume near each other"15:45
bauzasjaypipes: wanna create a Scrum backlog, eh ? ;)15:45
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jaypipesYathi: if you word your use case like above, you realize that it is simply describing another input to the scheduler's decision about a *VM* placement, and not where to place a volume.15:45
jaypipesmspreitz: you can't do both at once. Just pick a location for a volume (or use the location of an existing volume), and then schedule the VM to be near it.15:46
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jaypipesmspreitz: there's no point overcomplicating the code, IMO.15:46
Yathijaypipes: thanks..there are two of them.. one is the direct volume affinity.. which we demoed in HKG summit already..15:46
mspreitzjaypipes: you can't do both today, but we hope you can later15:46
* bauzas wishes good chance to johnthetubaguy for scrolling back the discussion...15:46
jaypipesmspreitz: I'm saying there's no point doing both.15:46
Yathibut the second one is this:  "As a cloud user..I want my VM and Volume placed close to each other15:46
jaypipesmspreitz: just pick a place for the volume, and make the location of the volume an input to the VM placement decision.15:47
jgriffithYathi: I'm curious why you'd want the complexity of both?15:47
jaypipesYathi: that is not valid, IMO. :)15:47
bauzasso, because there is one week in between this meeting and the next one, could we consider what n0ano said and see if my proposals are worth it ?15:47
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bauzasI'm just trying to get a conclusion from that lovely discussion :)15:47
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mspreitzjaypipes: as long as you have plenty of spare capacity in all your individual containers, serial placement will work.  But individual containers can run low on spare capacity15:48
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dduttafolks, need to drop off a little early but would be filling up https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/SchedulerUseCases .... sent to the dev list by replying to a bunch of emails on scheduler :)15:48
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n0anobauzas, I think your current specs are fine, the only issue is I guess we need to create one for the RT refactoring15:48
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bauzasddutta: cool thanks15:49
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jaypipesmspreitz: not entirely sure I follow you, but put your thoughts in that eherpad and we can go from there?15:49
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mspreitzjaypipes: sure15:50
* jaypipes needs to leave for airport shortly :(15:50
bauzasn0ano: as said, jaypipes's thoughts were about the fact we pass a JSON blob :)15:50
bauzasn0ano: so he was giving a -115:50
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bauzasn0ano: and the rest is history15:50
jaypipesbauzas: I actually support 95% of your patches and patch content.15:50
jaypipesbauzas: will do thorough reviews later today on plane.15:50
bauzasjaypipes: quoted for posterity15:50
jaypipesbauzas: it's just the end timing on a split that I disagree on.15:51
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jaypipesor rather, the urgency of a split.15:51
n0anobauzas, that's one of those `devil in the details', the basic idea is good, need to agree on the implementation15:51
Yathigreat discussion.. I hope the etherpad will get more "use cases" and help the case for Gantt15:51
bauzasYathi: +115:51
jaypipesthx guys, and sorry to offend anyone with my brash style!15:51
* jaypipes goes to herd his cattle.15:51
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bauzasjaypipes: no worries, your feedback is greatly appreciated:)15:51
n0anothat's ok, we save payback for when we meet in person :-)15:51
jaypipeshehe :) I'll be in Beaverton.15:52
n0anobauzas, +215:52
Yathijaypipes: thanks for letting us all know what a use case is :)15:52
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bauzass/know/remember :p15:52
n0anojaypipes, so will I (be afraid, be very afraid :-)15:52
Yathibauzas: +1 :)15:52
bauzasjaypipes: I won't be in Beaverton :(15:52
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jaypipesbauzas: I know,, that sucks :(15:52
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bauzasyey, I so much heard about the oregon beers...15:53
jaypipesPaulMurray, mspreitz, Yathi: will you be in Beaverton?15:53
mspreitzI will not be in Beaverton, unfortunately15:53
n0anobauzas, the Colorado beers are better15:53
mspreitzBut I think others can carry the flag15:53
Yathijaypipes: I am looking into my calendar.. will know soon15:53
Yathiwill try though15:53
jaypipesOK guys, I've got to pack for the flight... ciao!15:53
n0anowinding down, let's close a little early and get some work done15:54
bauzasn0ano: 5 mins for opens ?15:54
n0ano#topic opens15:54
*** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:54
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bauzas(wind in the trees)15:55
n0anoguess not, tnx everyone15:55
bauzasthanks n0ano :)15:55
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:55
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 15 15:55:31 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:55
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-15-15.00.html15:55
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-15-15.00.txt15:55
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-15-15.00.log.html15:55
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primeministerpstartmeeting #hyper-v16:09
primeministerphey all16:09
primeministerpsorry was running late16:09
primeministerpbunch of folks are travelling this week16:09
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ociuhandu_hi all16:10
primeministerpociuhandu_: hey tavi16:10
primeministerpociuhandu_: i got cought up too16:10
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primeministerpociuhandu_: was just going to give some updates on some bits we're working on16:10
primeministerpcinder test automation16:10
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primeministerpcurrently we're in the process of automating our test workload16:11
primeministerpmore to come on that as we progress16:11
primeministerpadditionally looking at more compute workload in new dc infra16:11
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primeministerpwe're still  waiting on some key hw to get put into place16:12
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primeministerpthat's all I have until other get back16:13
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boris-42#startmeeting rally17:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 15 17:03:15 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: rally)"17:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'rally'17:03
boris-42coolsvap hi17:03
boris-42rediskin hi17:03
boris-42olkonami hi17:03
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boris-42so let's start=)17:05
boris-42#topic OSprofiler Integration17:05
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*** openstack changes topic to "OSprofiler Integration (Meeting topic: rally)"17:05
boris-421) So HMAC keys shouldn't be used, we should use PKI approach17:06
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boris-42This will be covered by DuncanT-17:06
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boris-42k4n0 hi17:06
k4n0boris-42, Hi, sorry for being late17:06
DuncanT-Hopefully I'll have a patch tomorrow17:07
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boris-422) we should be able to support list of secret keys (that allows us to do rolling upgrade of services, with downtime)17:07
boris-42DuncanT- thanks17:07
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boris-42that will be covered by me (I am going to make it today/tomorrow)17:07
boris-42Patch that allows Ceilometer to collect profiling data from Keystone is almost merged17:07
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boris-42So after this KPI stuff will be changed17:08
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boris-42I will update one more time patches in Glance / Kyestone / Cinder17:08
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boris-42so I hope they will be merged in Juno17:09
oanufrievhi. sorry17:09
boris-42oanufriev hi there17:09
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boris-42So let's move to next topic17:09
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boris-42if no questions?17:09
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boris-42#topic refactoring periodic runner (new name RPS)17:10
*** openstack changes topic to "refactoring periodic runner (new name RPS) (Meeting topic: rally)"17:10
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boris-42oanufriev could you share details about your work17:10
boris-42oanufriev to others17:10
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oanufrievwhell. there is the patch on review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102363/17:10
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boris-42oanufriev does it work?)17:11
oanufrievyes. i have results on 20000 times 100 rps dummy runner17:11
oanufrievwithout swapping and lugs17:12
boris-42oanufriev what is the name of task?17:12
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boris-42oanufriev ^17:12
boris-42oh I found it=)17:13
boris-42oanufriev hmmm17:13
boris-42oanufriev why there is one or couple of iterstation that works for 20 seconds??17:13
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boris-42oanufriev still here?)17:15
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boris-42okay moving to next topic17:15
boris-42we will discuss this in rally chat17:16
boris-42#topic Functional testing17:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Functional testing (Meeting topic: rally)"17:16
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boris-42check-rally-dsvm-cli now works17:17
boris-42and you can take a look at results.html.gz17:17
boris-42that show that everything passed17:17
k4n0nice :)17:17
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boris-42k4n0 so when you finish your work on --josn17:18
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boris-42k4n0 we will be able to test whole CLI17:18
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boris-42k4n0 in gates on every patch17:18
k4n0boris-42, yes, will be done early morning tomorrow17:18
k4n0boris-42, or even tonite17:18
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boris-42#topic unit tests17:18
*** openstack changes topic to "unit tests (Meeting topic: rally)"17:18
oanufrievsorry again17:19
boris-42coolsvap could you share that?)17:19
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boris-42coolsvap e.g. what is the progress and so on17:19
coolsvapboris-42, sure17:19
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coolsvapI have been working on it for some days now, got 8 patches of which 6 are merged17:20
coolsvapthe coverage has increased by 1-2% in that17:20
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coolsvapalso reviewing patches and would recommend everyone to add unit tests in the patch itself17:21
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coolsvapboris-42, thats all from my side17:22
boris-42coolsvap ok great and nice work17:23
boris-42coolsvap btw you can review not only unit tests of patches17:23
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boris-42coolsvap but whole patch, that will help a lot core team17:23
boris-42#topic Incubation Request17:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Incubation Request (Meeting topic: rally)"17:23
boris-42Okay guys I think it's time to put Incubation Request17:23
boris-42so during these days I am going to fill all documents that are required by this17:24
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boris-42And as well we should have official PTL17:24
boris-42so we should make PTL election17:24
boris-42so don't miss email in mailing list17:24
k4n0boris-42, do we need elections :)17:24
boris-42k4n0 coolsvap harlowja marcoemorais ^17:24
boris-42k4n0 yep we need=)17:25
boris-42there is no formal PTL in rally lol=)17:25
harlowjadear leader boris-4217:25
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harlowja*not to be confused with deal leader kim-jong-il17:25
boris-42harlowja lol17:25
k4n0harlowja, "dear leader" haha17:25
k4n0boris-42, are we missing anything critical for incubations?17:26
boris-42k4n0 I don't think so17:26
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boris-42k4n0 we have community , a lot of cores17:26
boris-42k4n0 we have functional gates and as well not so bad coverage by unit test =)17:27
harlowjais dear leader boris-42 sick?17:27
k4n0boris-42, sounds good17:27
boris-42harlowja lol=)17:27
boris-42k4n0 so I'll fill incubation template and we will see if something is missing=)17:27
k4n0boris-42, sure17:27
coolsvapboris-42, :)17:28
boris-42#topic free discussion17:28
*** openstack changes topic to "free discussion (Meeting topic: rally)"17:28
boris-42so guys do you have any topics that you wanna speak about17:29
oanufrievmy firefox dies on http://logs.openstack.org/63/102363/14/check/check-rally-dsvm-rally/603de6c/rally-plot/results.html.gz17:29
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oanufrievwhen i try to check Dummy.dummy #117:29
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harlowjaboris-42 likes to kill browsers17:30
boris-42harlowja serial morder =)17:30
boris-42oanufriev heh open it in chrome17:30
boris-42oanufriev at that scale it works only in chrome17:30
boris-42oanufriev or just open text results17:30
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oanufriev<boris-42> oanufriev why there is one or couple of iterstation that works for 20 seconds?? 20 seconds == 20000ms. and we have 20000 iterations.... may be some misstake presents&17:31
boris-42oanufriev http://logs.openstack.org/63/102363/14/check/check-rally-dsvm-rally/603de6c/rally-plot/results.json.gz17:31
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boris-42oanufriev nope17:31
boris-42oanufriev if you take a look at graph you'll see17:31
boris-42oanufriev oh sorry17:33
boris-42oanufriev my bad17:33
boris-42oanufriev it's 0.1 sec17:33
boris-42oanufriev instead of 0.0117:33
boris-42Btw guys I forgot to say17:34
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boris-42#topic Scalability of Rally17:34
*** openstack changes topic to "Scalability of Rally (Meeting topic: rally)"17:34
boris-42There are couple of changes related to scalability of rally17:34
boris-42one of them is already merged17:34
k4n0boris-42, the workers patch?17:35
boris-42^ nope this one that allows async to deal with results17:35
boris-42next one will be about chunking data (and storing separated chunks)17:35
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boris-42e.g. chunk shouldn't have more then 100k iterations17:35
boris-42or some configurable option17:35
boris-42and there is patch17:36
boris-42on review ^17:36
boris-42that reduces amount of points on graphs17:36
boris-42that allows us to avoid killing everybody browsers=)17:36
boris-42if there is too many points=)17:36
boris-42any questions about scalability?17:37
boris-42#topic free discussion17:38
*** openstack changes topic to "free discussion (Meeting topic: rally)"17:38
boris-42Okay guys anything that you would like to discuss ?17:38
k4n0boris-42, nothing from my side17:38
boris-42coolsvap harlowja k4n0 oanufriev olkonami ?17:38
boris-42rediskin ?17:38
harlowjaboris-42 when can that music thing be ready?17:38
* harlowja needs to listen to ma tunes17:39
harlowjaopenstack tunes17:39
boris-42harlowja for http://boris-42.github.io/profiler/ ?)17:39
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boris-42harlowja I need to find some lib for playing music lol)17:39
boris-42^ seems like ready=)17:39
coolsvapnothing from my side17:40
harlowjaboris-42 niceee17:40
harlowjaboris-42 so u need to integrate that into osprofiler17:40
boris-42harlowja yep we can have for example 100 tons17:40
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harlowjaya, make 10000ms things use the slow tone, and such17:40
boris-42yep yep17:41
harlowjaboris-42 for those that are visually impaired that will help them17:41
harlowjauseability !!17:41
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harlowjadon't be discrimatatory17:41
boris-42okay I want go and do something=)17:42
boris-42so let's finish this meeting17:42
boris-42if somebody has any questions ping in rally17:42
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:42
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 15 17:42:24 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:42
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-15-17.03.html17:42
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-15-17.03.txt17:42
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-15-17.03.log.html17:42
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stevemarkeystone time!18:00
morganfainbergawwww yeah18:00
dolphmoh meetings18:00
bknudsonI've got an accent now18:01
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dolphmayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, fmarco76, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:01
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morganfainbergbusy buys schedule18:01
dolphmbknudson: goo't'hear18:01
stevemarbknudson spent too much time in SAT18:01
dolphm#startmeeting keystone18:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 15 18:01:58 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:01
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openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:02
dolphmso this agenda is super long18:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:02
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dolphmreally, quick off agenda:18:02
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dolphm#topic Juno milestone 218:02
dolphmis next week18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Juno milestone 2 (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
morganfainbergthe last thing i snuck on there can be punted to -keystone if needed post meeting18:02
dolphmlbragstad needs a ton of code review attention18:02
lbragstadapi validation!18:02
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dolphmand i threw the GET /v3/catalog stuff up yesterday - need an API review and implementation is ready as well https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/get-catalog18:03
dolphmso, moving on...18:03
dolphmmore process stuff!18:03
dolphm#topic Spec Proposal Deadline and Spec Approval Deadline18:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Spec Proposal Deadline and Spec Approval Deadline (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:03
dolphm#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/SpecProposalDeadline18:03
dolphm#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/SpecApprovalDeadline18:03
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dolphmbe aware that we'll be putting these into affect for j318:04
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dolphmi'm not 100% on dates, but IIRC, if you want to land a blueprint in j3, you'll need a the -spec by the end of j2 (?)18:05
morganfainbergdolphm, ++18:05
topoldolphm, why are both needed?18:05
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dolphmwe've got a load of approved specs already18:05
dolphmtopol: mostly to spread the review load18:05
topoldolphm, K18:05
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bknudsonat some point we have to review code and not specs18:05
topolbknudson ++++18:05
bknudsonand also have to be working on fixing things rather than adding new features18:06
topolbknudson on a roll18:06
dolphm#topic What we did decide WRT format of the specification documents18:06
*** openstack changes topic to "What we did decide WRT format of the specification documents (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:06
bknudsongathering +s18:06
dolphmso, i think we need to rollback the "stop here" change :(18:06
stevemarbank the +'s bknudson18:06
topoldolphm, why18:06
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bknudsonI'm fine with the stop here change.18:07
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bknudsonbut I also thought we discussed putting them in "next" rather than "juno"18:07
dolphmbknudson: after going through the motions as a spec writer, i found the whole thing overly complicated18:07
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topoldolphm, which part?18:07
dolphmand the diffs in gerrit were hard to follow - it ended up as a delete in next/ and an add in juno/18:08
topoldolphm, that makes sense18:08
dolphmtopol: proposing a problem description to next/18:08
morganfainbergah thats right next *spaced on that*18:08
dolphmand then moving it18:08
topoldolphm, if its ahrd for you to follow some of us will never make it home18:08
dolphmtopol: ++18:08
bknudsonwe could have the proposal filled in for next and then a separate move to juno18:09
dolphmbknudson: that's just more process :(18:09
bknudsonI wouldn't have a problem having filled-in specs in next18:09
topoldolphm +++. Less process would be good here18:09
morganfainbergi want a clicky interface that targets a spec to juno /soapbox18:09
bknudsonwe should define the reqs for the process and make one that works18:09
morganfainbergnot a git commit :P18:09
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dolphmmaybe we could do it with votes? termie's solution was to always start with a -2 until the author had demonstrated a clear reason to need the proposed change.18:09
morganfainbergif we have backlog -> release process/paperwork.18:10
jamielennoxif you start with a -2 no one will look at it18:10
topoldolphm, ugggh18:10
bknudsondo we want a monster page of gerrit reviews in -specs?18:10
topoljamielennox I agree18:10
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dolphmthere are downsides to that, both for author experience and reviewer experience18:10
bknudsonseems like we'd want to get them accepted18:10
dolphmjamielennox: ++18:10
topolplus dolphm started his thought with termie's solution :-)18:10
morganfainbergML topic? if there is general support, file the spec?18:11
topolI got in my car and pulled away when I saw that18:11
dolphmin the short term, i'll propose a revert to the "stop here" language, and we can talk about an alternative path forward from there?18:11
henrynashI have to say that I personally don’t mind the “slightly shorter version” we came up with...18:11
topoldolphm sounds good18:11
stevemari don't mind a long list of specs in gerrit18:11
topolhenrynash I liked it too18:12
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bknudsonsince the reviews aren't going to time out and I wouldn't expect rebase issues then I guess it's not an issue to have reviews in gerrit18:12
morganfainberghenrynash, topol, i wrote up a spec (a simple one) last night, the shortend version helped18:12
topolwhat if the short version had a link at the end to point to post implementation design details?18:12
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/10713318:12
dolphmproposal to revert language ^18:12
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lbragstadso we're still excluding some of the topics however?18:13
morganfainbergdolphm, +218:13
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dolphmlbragstad: yes18:13
morganfainberglbragstad, yeah, we're just reverting the "STOP HERE" part18:13
dolphmlbragstad: the ones still in the template are ++18:13
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topolso we get the benefit of the short version and a pointer if you want more details18:13
dolphm#topic Dropping the milestone-2 deadline for API impacting blueprints18:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Dropping the milestone-2 deadline for API impacting blueprints (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:13
bknudsonthis works for me18:14
dolphmso i sent an email to the list about this yesterday:18:14
dolphm#link http://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg29415.html18:14
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morganfainbergdolphm, i am in support of this. as long as we are open to re-evaluate at the summit and see how it went18:14
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morganfainbergi expect no issues, but worth keeping an open mind on it18:15
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topoldolphm, your arguments seemed a little specious  :-)18:15
dolphmis anyone *opposed* to dropping this deadline, and *wants* to keep it? (and is willing to present a defense for it?)18:15
topolI am ok with dropping it18:15
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topolBut Im not sure I bought all of your justifiaction18:15
morganfainbergdolphm, I like overly restrictive, draconian deadlines that are immutable. can we make it juno-1 instead? :P18:15
dolphmmorganfainberg: =)18:15
ayoungI like dropping the K3 deadline. We do something in Keystone, no one is going to use it for at least two releases anyway18:15
dolphmtopol: you're welcome to make another argument in favor of dropping it, i just wanted to share my perspective on it :P18:16
dolphmayoung: K3? milestone 2?18:16
ayoungJ3, K3 ....18:16
morganfainberglol k3, wow, future looking there ;)18:16
ayoungthey are right next to each other on the keyboard18:16
jamielennoxayoung: ++, i've never seen anyone really use anything we add to keystone in that last cycle18:16
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raildodolphm: I wanted to include hierarchical multitenancy  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/107133/ still in Juno,  a lot of thing has already implemented.18:16
morganfainbergayoung, reality, might be more accurate than just a typo in some cases.18:17
topolI think just that things are more stable and less changes to keep track of and we feel we can relax it a little18:17
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morganfainbergraildo, i don't think it is unreasonable.18:17
stevemari think it's very needed this release, we got so bogged down with specs18:17
dolphmalright, if no one is opposed, let's call it a thing of the past right now. that means Identity API v3.3 will be considered *stable* when we cut proposed/juno18:17
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morganfainbergtopol, and we will re-evaluate at the summit18:17
ayoungwant an official vote?18:17
bknudsonare there changes to core api proposed?18:17
morganfainbergtopol, worst case is K we move back to milestone2 if it was a big fiasco18:17
raildomorganfainberg: why?18:17
dolphmayoung: nah, only if there are people willing to defend keeping it18:17
topolwont you have at least some point of freezing18:18
dolphmwhich seems to be no one18:18
morganfainbergraildo, rephrase: it's totally reasonable to get it in this cycle18:18
topolwhat yuou said is changes up to the bitter end18:18
dolphmmorganfainberg: ++18:18
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topolwe got burned in havana doing that with LDAP18:18
raildomorganfainberg: ah, ok.18:18
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dolphmtopol: we still have SAD and SPD, and feature proposal freeze18:18
morganfainbergtopol we still have feature freeze18:19
morganfainbergtopol, that wont change18:19
bknudsonwe'll still have changes right to the end18:19
topolOK then18:19
dolphmi should have mentioned those in the email18:19
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dolphmthat's when the new deadline would be for these kinds of things18:19
morganfainbergtopol this just extends our change window to j318:19
morganfainbergtopol, rather than 1 week from now18:19
morganfainbergtopol, if it affects the API18:19
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topolmorganfainberg ++++ maybe I misundersatood what dolphm meant18:19
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dolphmtopol: we're just not putting *extra* restrictions on api impacting changes anymore18:20
topol"when we cut proposed juno"18:20
raildomorganfainberg: I think I already have 50 ~ 70% of the implementation ready.18:20
topoldolphm, I agree18:20
morganfainbergraildo, yeah thats why i said it's totally reasonable :)18:20
topoland it does feel more agile not to freeze at j2 :-)18:21
henrynashraildo: I still think the spec is not sufficient, so we need to get that tightened up18:21
dolphm#info no more early milestone-2 deadline for API-impacting changes18:21
morganfainberghenrynash, ++18:21
dolphmalright, moving on because long agenda...18:21
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dolphm#topic REST API for retrieving config options18:21
*** openstack changes topic to "REST API for retrieving config options (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:21
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dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106558/18:21
raildohenrynash: I tried to explain you there18:21
topolsecurity hole!!!18:22
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-openstackstatus- NOTICE: python2.6 jobs are failing due to bug 1342262 "virtualenv>=1.9.1 not found" A fix is out but there are still nodes built on the old stale images18:22
dolphmso i -1'd this earlier today because it sounds like it belongs in oslo, as there's nothing keystone-specific about this18:22
morganfainbergraildo, henrynash, lets circle up after in -keytone, but i think the concerns are resolvable18:22
*** ChanServ changes topic to "python2.6 jobs are failing due to bug 1342262 "virtualenv>=1.9.1 not found" A fix is out but there are still nodes built on the old stale images"18:22
dstanekseems like there is a lot of resistance to this on the ML18:22
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dolphmdstanek: there's a thread for this?18:22
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ayoungdolphm, can we please follow the oslo rule of "make it work in a project first"  here?18:23
bknudsonmaybe what's needed is a concrete example of how it's to be used.18:23
ayoungI don't want to push broken code to oslo just sto sync it back down18:23
stevemarbuahaha, i opened that bug18:23
morganfainberg#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-July/040272.html18:23
topoldolphm, dont oslo things need to be proved out in a project and then moved to oslo after they show value?18:23
dolphmayoung: then make it work first on stackforge - i don't think it belongs in our tree18:23
ayoungtopol, +_+18:23
dolphmmorganfainberg: thanks18:23
dstanekmorganfainberg: thx.18:24
henrynashdolphm: yes, I have to agree….although it’s not so much resistance againstthe idea as to whether it is needed in conjunction with everything else available18:24
dolphmtopol: but there's nothing relevant to keystone for us to prove out. this is literally exposing oslo.config via generic middleware18:24
morganfainberglet me be upfront and say I don't see the usecase. but... to be fair i don't know what exactly you're solving henrynash, i am open to being swayed to it being valuable18:24
ayoungdolphm, I think that is now the standard response for all new features;  stackforge first....18:24
bknudsonI think people responding to the discussion on the mailing list are thinking that there's better ways to get config done...18:24
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bknudsone.g., use chef or puppet18:24
dstanekhenrynash: do you have a usecase at IBM for it?18:24
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morganfainbergand i dislike exposing configs via rest, logs can be aggregated to see what the results are and chef/puppet/tripleo/whatever is better about configuring things18:25
dolphmayoung: i don't want to waste keystone-core's time supporting a feature that doesn't belong in the tree18:25
ayoungbknudson, yeah, but chef and puppet say what you want it to be, not what it actually is.18:25
bknudsonbut if chef or puppet don't work in some scenario then we have a different requirement that the proposal would fulfill18:25
morganfainbergunless we open the door to do live-rest-based-config-changes.18:25
topoldolphm, someone still should try something before it goes to oslo18:25
henrynashdstanek: we do…and it’s as dscribed18:25
ayoungdolphm, I agree..and I think most new things should be done out of tree first.18:25
topolsomething new like this18:25
ayoungthat was the idea of "everthing is an extension"18:25
henrynashbut I’m happy to do this out of tree to start18:25
jamielennoxmorganfainberg: ++ i remember looking a while ago at being able to do config via a REST API and was told that everyone uses puppet (eg) for this sort of thing anyway18:26
dolphmhenrynash: i'd suggest stackforge/oslo-config-middleware =)18:26
morganfainberghenrynash, it should be trivial to do as middleware that consumes oslo.config out-of-tree18:26
morganfainbergdolphm, ++18:26
jamielennoxso i'm in general anti it being in projects unless there is good reason that i haven't seen yet18:26
henrynashok, let’s take this one off the list18:26
topoldolphm, henrynash. Im fine with that. Thats what happened to pycadf and then folks brought it back in. Sweet justice :-)18:26
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morganfainbergjamielennox, it's because we use python and not tomcat, if we used tomcat people would love live-config-changes (or C++ with a draconian restart policy **previous job)18:27
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bknudsonI implemented a REST API that re-read the config file for a previous project... worked pretty well.18:27
morganfainberghenrynash, hey if people love it, it'll be easier to get directly into oslo.config or associated rather than needing it in keystone then elsewhere18:27
henrynashmorganfainberq: ++18:27
topolmorganfainberg ++18:28
dolphmmorganfainberg: ++18:28
dolphm#topic Defaulting keystonemiddleware.auth_token to use Identity v318:28
*** openstack changes topic to "Defaulting keystonemiddleware.auth_token to use Identity v3 (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:28
stevemarsounds like bknudson just signed up for work18:28
stevemardolphm, lets do it!18:28
ayoungbknudson, kill -1 type behavior?18:28
bknudsonI thought it would default to version discovery?18:28
topolwe are ready for that???18:28
dolphmso shardy noted on the mailing list that we're not using v3 with auth_token yet, and the way to change that behavior by default is this:18:28
morganfainbergtopol it passes gate last we checked18:28
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106819/18:28
topolmorganfainberg, woow. thats progress18:29
morganfainbergdolphm, i also responded to shardy's email this morning indicating we were working on it actively.18:29
dolphmunfortunately, proof that this changes passes gate is here:18:29
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106833/18:29
jamielennoxso i don't undestand this, the only thing that isn't doing v3 is the initial auth request - and when we do a release of client we can consume all that loading from config work to fix that18:29
morganfainbergdolphm, nova change is merged iirc18:29
morganfainbergcinder is 1x+2 waiting for a 2nd18:29
dolphmuntil we move over all projects from keystoneclient.middleware.auth_token to keystonemiddleware.auth_token18:29
bknudsonI'm surprised that normal version discovery wouldn't work here.18:29
dolphmmorganfainberg: woot18:29
morganfainbergi'll harass jgriffith today18:29
dolphmmorganfainberg: is there a bug number on those changes?18:29
dolphmmorganfainberg: i wanted to advertise it at today's cross-project meeting18:29
morganfainbergdolphm, uhm... they're bknudson's changes18:30
morganfainbergnot sure.18:30
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dolphmmake sure every project is aware and onboard18:30
dolphmbknudson: ?18:30
bknudsonthere wasn't a bug18:30
dolphmbknudson: can we make one, and retroactively mark it as fixed in nova? :)18:30
morganfainbergi just was piggybacking on his reviews (he gets all the credit! he did the work in the code)18:30
bknudsonyes, I'll make a bug after the meeting.18:30
dolphmbknudson: thanks! ping me with the number18:30
bknudsonmy changes were easy18:30
bknudsonalthough ceilometer was a pain18:30
bknudsonsince they were referencing internal variable18:31
morganfainbergbknudson, i think they are still -1 on it18:31
bknudsonI don't know if they'll like my change.18:31
dolphmso back to the point at hand-- anyone aware of a reason we shouldn't default to v3 in keystonemiddleware today, and release that as 1.1.0?18:31
dolphmor release *soon*18:31
morganfainbergbknudson, but that was for unrelated reasons18:31
morganfainbergbknudson, if they're referencing an internal variable, they're doing it wrong, i'm happy to go argue with them on that18:31
bknudsondolphm: I'm confused why we can't use normal version discovery to get the version to use?18:31
bknudsonit's implemented in keystoneclient18:31
dolphmmorganfainberg: s/discuss/lecture/18:32
morganfainberg(unless you want to)18:32
morganfainbergdolphm, ++18:32
dolphmbknudson: we do basically use discovery. the order of preference currently prefers v2 when it finds both18:32
dolphmbknudson: my change reverses the default preference18:32
jamielennoxbknudson: it's not the review i was thinking of - all this review should do is prioritize v3 over v2 if available18:32
jamielennoxwhich seems logical to me18:32
dolphmjamielennox: ++18:32
bknudsonok, we can switch to normal version discovery later.18:32
dolphmwe actually had v3 as the preference a long time ago, but it broke nova. jamielennox recently fixed that breakage (by providing a normalized catalog to nova)18:33
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morganfainbergyay jamielennox !18:33
dolphmmorganfainberg: ++18:33
jamielennoxbknudson: yep, once we land the auth plugins and session in middleware using the proper discovery object will be easier18:33
topoljamielennox was missed in San Antonio18:34
morganfainbergtopol, +++++++18:34
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* jamielennox missed San Antonio too18:34
morganfainbergtopol, i hear it's cause he just doens't love us enough to fly 18hrs+ each way for 3 days18:34
dolphmmorganfainberg: ++18:34
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topoltake one for the team, man18:34
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jamielennoxi'll see what i can do for next one18:35
dolphmalright, so i'll leave the discussion up for code review if there's no reason to switch back to WIP: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106819/18:35
ayoungblame our travel budget more than jamielennox 's dedication18:35
topolwe are just kidding18:35
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dolphm#topic Migrating non-CADF events to CADF format18:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Migrating non-CADF events to CADF format (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:35
dolphmtopol: (?) o/18:35
dolphmthere's no name on this one18:35
topol18 hours is a long time for 3 days18:35
stevemardolphm, that was me18:35
dolphmstevemar: o/18:35
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dolphmstevemar: care to edumacate us18:36
morganfainbergthis is the notification contract discussion right?18:36
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stevemarpretty simple, i was questioned as to why we emit some cadf notifications (authN), and some non-CADF (project create and such)18:36
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stevemarI didn't have a good answer other than, one was implemented first18:36
stevemari was thinking it would be good to get everything in one format18:37
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lbragstadWhen we first started doing the notification work, cadf was *just* getting off the ground I believe18:37
stevemarso tools could more easily consumer things from us, in only one format, not multiple18:37
stevemarlbragstad, yep18:37
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stevemari wanted to propose it here, see if anyone had any thoughts/ pushback18:38
dolphmstevemar: so would this be a matter of emitting two notifications on identity.project.created, for example? or a switch of formats18:38
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stevemardolphm, i was thinking switch of formats, but we could do both and deprecate the other18:38
stevemarin due time18:38
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lbragstadstevemar: what format are you leaning towards? the cadf format, right?18:39
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dolphmthere's an omg-notifications-ARE-an-API discussion on openstack-dev right now that might have input on that18:39
stevemarlbragstad, yes18:39
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morganfainbergdolphm, ++ that was what i thought this was in reference to18:40
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stevemardolphm, ugh yeah, i saw that, theres a lot going on there,18:40
dolphmmorganfainberg: was there a trend towards more CADF there?18:40
morganfainbergdolphm, it was suggested?18:40
dolphmi haven't read past the first post18:40
topolhmmm, sometimes we may need to generate both for a transition period :-(18:40
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stevemardolphm, same18:40
morganfainbergdolphm, i dunno, it's kindof a dense conversation18:40
morganfainbergtopol, configurable18:41
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dolphm#action stevemar to catch up on the dense mailing list conversation, drag keystone into the convo, and report back next week18:41
morganfainbergtopol, let the deployers choose if they need both, or let them disable one if we're doing that18:41
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bknudsonI was at the HK summit meeting and was surprised that ceilometer was putting up with the changes to notifications18:41
topolyes, but still yuvky18:41
stevemardolphm, ahhh C'MON18:41
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arunkantWould be better if it can support both format (versioning ?) or configurable. I am working on a barbican change where it will consume these keystone notifications/events.18:41
dolphmstevemar: thanks!18:41
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morganfainbergstevemar, Voluntold!18:41
stevemardammit rabbit18:41
topoldolphm, wow...Im speechless18:41
dolphmarunkant: ++18:41
stevemardolphm is learning from topol18:42
bknudsonmight need to send the message on a different channel18:42
topolI didnt want to say it but...18:42
dolphmdr redundant is a pro18:42
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dolphmtopol: p.s. i have expectations for casual nick friday18:42
dolphm#topic Dependency Injection "Fix"18:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Dependency Injection "Fix" (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:42
dolphmmorganfainberg: o/18:43
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106951/18:43
topolthat name is so demeaning.  like using the term spirit bunnies in fast time at ridgemont high. only ayoung will get that movie reference18:43
lbragstadarunkant: that would work. I *think* what is currently sent in a notification is a subset of the cadf standard... so future version should build on/include what we already have.18:43
morganfainbergok so, dependency injection is overly complex for what we do18:43
morganfainberglets stop doing it.18:43
dolphmdstanek: ?18:43
dstanekdolphm: yep, too complex!18:43
morganfainberglets either pass the dependencies into the objects on init that need it, or reference the registry directly18:44
topolmorganfainberg, really. cause I hate that stuff. makes the code hard to follow18:44
ayoungWe moved beyong "reference the manager" for a reason....18:44
morganfainbergmake the managers really more like singletons18:44
jamielennoxmorganfainberg: ++18:44
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topolmorganfainberg +++18:44
bknudsonno singletons18:44
dstaneki agree and that dependencies should be passed into the __init__18:44
dolphmoh THIS is what ya'll were discussing #openstack-keystone today18:44
morganfainbergbut the current DI has caused us issues and has lots of edge cases18:44
ayoungno singletons18:44
dolphmi missed the beginning and then had java nightmares wondering wtf18:44
dstaneka real DI framework would force you into that anyway18:44
topolwhat is casual nick friday???18:44
morganfainbergbknudson, it was an option, not saying it was the right answer18:45
bknudsonwe don't treat them like singletons anyways (in the tests)18:45
* topol I know dstanek must know a better way to do that stuff18:45
bknudsonand we can't if we want to do valid testing18:45
morganfainbergbknudson, right.18:45
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morganfainbergbknudson, well we could but it would get really really ugly18:45
jamielennoxcurrently the entire dependency tree get's loaded on the first call anyway - if anything it's better to do it on boot18:45
ayoung dependencies should be passed in to __init__18:45
dstanektopol: i started to convert of code to a different DI framework, but the changes were too extensive so i stopped18:46
morganfainbergayoung, that is perfectly fine by me18:46
ayoungwe had circular deps at one point.   Can we cut those now?18:46
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dolphmayoung: between what and what?18:46
bknudsonwe've got a part that builds all the drivers anyways, all it has to do is build the drivers differently, passing in the refs that need it.18:46
morganfainbergayoung, i think we have. and even if we haven't, the resolution to that is in service.py backendloading18:46
morganfainbergdolphm, identity and assignment18:46
dolphmthe proxy methods?18:46
dolphmis there still a circular dep?18:46
morganfainbergdolphm, no, where identity being LDAP means assignment is LDAP18:47
topolmorganfainberg, yeah the code with the comment, do this one before al the others...18:47
morganfainbergit was one needed the other in some cases for compatibility18:47
morganfainbergthis still can be 100% resolved in the backend building code.18:47
bknudsonso you didn't have to configure the assignment backend, it was derived from the identity backend config18:47
dstanekis there a proposal for what we want to do there? or just some ideas?18:47
ayoung++  lets do it right this time18:47
dolphmbknudson: ah18:48
topolneeds to be completed before Lebrons contract runs out in 2 years18:48
dolphmdstanek: make ldap assignment go away!18:48
morganfainbergthis is a relatively easy / minor fix all said and done, lots of simplification18:48
morganfainbergdolphm, i wish :(18:48
topoldstanek, 2 years 42 million18:49
dolphmwe need a fantasies/ dir in -specs18:49
topolwelcome home son18:49
morganfainbergnow, there is _still_ an issue with class level instantiated objects, but we can just punt and say "who cares".18:49
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bknudsonI don't think you could do that with our DI anyways18:50
morganfainberge.g. an object instatied at the class definition point can't receive the newest version of the *_api object18:50
morganfainbergbut we can work around those special cases.18:50
morganfainbergbknudson, no we can't18:50
morganfainbergbknudson, thats what made me want to rip this all apart in the first place.18:50
ayoungdolphm, ldap assignemtn can go away.  We can now default assignemet Driver to None.18:51
morganfainbergbknudson, even though i'm not using that functionality in the next update.18:51
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dstanekoptional deps are just evil18:51
morganfainbergok so, solution: pass dependencies in to the manager init18:51
morganfainbergi think is what i generally heard18:51
ayoungmorganfainberg, ++18:51
bknudsonsounds like the normal way to do it.18:51
bknudsonnothing fancy18:51
topolmorganfainberg that would be so awesome18:51
morganfainbergeasy enough, make the manager base class smarter18:52
jamielennoxyep, magic-less18:52
morganfainberg(not a lot smarter)18:52
bknudsonit's like putting an umlaut in Luke18:52
bknudsonjust confuses everyone18:52
ayoungOr Blue Oyster Cult, for that matter18:52
morganfainbergwhats wrong with pütting an umlaut in lüke or anything with a ü.18:52
topolmotley crue. saw them in concert18:52
ayoungtopol, BOC was first18:53
henrynashayoung: on your feet, or on your knees…18:53
stevemari'd appreciate eyes on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100023/17 it reflects what we talked about in SAT18:53
topollove BOC18:53
morganfainberghenrynash, s/your/yoür18:53
morganfainbergok i'll update the spec to reflect the discussion here.18:53
dolphmmorganfainberg: fwiw, freenode won't let me /nick to dölphm18:53
morganfainbergdolphm, WHAT?! lammmme18:54
dolphm"Erroneous Nickname"18:54
topolfreenode keeping folks in line18:54
bknudsonit must be taken already18:54
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hrybackiso many upset Germans18:54
morganfainberg /nick mörganfaïnbërg18:54
stevemarhrybacki, not after sunday's win18:54
dolphmso, 5 minutes:18:54
dolphm#topic open discussion18:54
topolThey are HAPPY!18:54
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dolphmand holy crap that was the longest agenda we've ever made it through18:54
hrybackistevemar: solid point :P18:55
stevemardolphm, good leaderizing18:55
morganfainbergalso yay for hrybacki making it to the meetup!!18:55
bknudsonkept it on topic somehow18:55
stevemarwe managed to save all our jokes for the end18:55
hrybackithanks all, it was honestly amazing learning from y'all in person18:55
dolphmmorganfainberg: hrybacki: ++18:55
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topoldefintely a productive time18:56
jamielennoxdolphm: are you looking at a client release any time soon?18:56
dolphmjamielennox: YES! i wanted to poke you about that18:56
dstanekso it looks like we have 47k lines of code18:56
dolphmbarbican wants a release soon to take advantage of your owrk18:56
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dolphmjamielennox: any blockers to doing that today?18:56
bknudsondstanek: does that include oslo-incubator?18:57
dstanekbknudson: yes18:57
bknudsonbecause hopefully that will be going away mostly18:57
dolphmdstanek: in keystone?18:57
stevemardolphm, can we wait until mareks stuff is in? it's gating now18:57
jamielennoxdolphm: let me have a quick look through, but i think most of what i have left is a nice-to-have for this release18:57
dolphmstevemar: sure, give me patch numbers18:57
dstanek~45k without18:57
stevemardolphm, also everything is blocked because of bug 134226218:57
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1342262 in openstack-ci "virtualenv>=1.9.1 not found for py26 environments" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/134226218:57
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dolphmstevemar: ah yeah18:58
topolI thought dolphm charged a beer to release a new client. Guess the price has dropped18:58
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stevemardolphm, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92166/ i would like that one in18:58
marekdstevemar: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++18:59
dolphmooooh raise ReleaseNotFunded(_('Beer required', lang=oslo.i18n.en_AU))18:59
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stevemardolphm, can you release a new version if the gate is failing?18:59
dolphmstevemar: marekd: but there's also https://review.openstack.org/#/c/99704/18:59
stevemardolphm, do you just take a snap shot of the current master level and thats it?18:59
dolphmstevemar: tag and upload the tag; but i wouldn't want to release with a jammed gate anyway19:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 15 19:00:26 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-07-15-18.01.html19:00
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-07-15-18.01.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-07-15-18.01.log.html19:00
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dolphm#startmeeting infra19:05
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 15 19:05:04 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:05
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:05
dolphm#topic Beer19:05
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:05
dolphm#info Meetup in Germany19:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Beer (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
dolphm#link https://twitter.com/sdague/status/48912025316389273619:05
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:05
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 15 19:05:13 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:05
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-15-19.05.html19:05
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-15-19.05.txt19:05
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-15-19.05.log.html19:05
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ttxWho is around for the TC meeting ?20:00
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ttxrussellb, annegentle, mordred, devananda, vishy, markmcclain, jeblair, jaypipes, sdague: around ?20:00
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ttxI know mordred, jeblair and sdague are all at the infra sprint, probably somewhere tasting German bier20:01
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ttxbut we need 2 more to have quorum20:02
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anteayajeblair and sdague are drinking beer20:03
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ttxyay, that makes 720:03
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 15 20:03:41 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:03
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:03
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ttxAgenda for today is:20:03
anteayamordred is actually still in north america I believe20:04
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee20:04
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ttxlooks like markmcclain is around too20:04
ttx#topic Core Capabilities TC scoring20:04
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/10072220:04
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ttxI got a bit of clarification on what to do when the capability name doesn't really match the set of underlying tests, and around the meaning of "complete":20:04
dhellmannttx: do you want a new draft with the references to the ML discussion included, or is having those links in the review history good enough?20:04
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/defcore-committee/2014-July/000247.html20:05
ttxno I think it's good enough20:05
ttxWith that clarification, I think the currently-proposed scoring for havana is as good as any20:05
ttxWe just need to gather enough +1s on it now20:05
ttxUnless someone questions a specific score and wants us to discuss it here20:05
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ttxso we need 4 more +1s to pass it20:06
zehicle_at_dellThank you all for getting the scoring complete!20:06
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ttxif all the attendance is ok with it, we could pass it now20:06
ttxif there is anything blocking you from +1ing it, we can discuss it now20:07
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ttxannegentle: o/20:07
russellbzehicle_at_dell: thanks for the clarifications20:07
ttxannegentle: we are discussing https://review.openstack.org/100722 and trying to get the last +1s on it20:07
zehicle_at_dellrussellb, thanks.  Let me know if I should update the source materials too20:07
zehicle_at_dellhappy to take suggestions to update there20:07
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markmcttx, +1ed20:08
russellbbiggest thing i think is what we discussed before ... a text description of each capability20:08
russellbbecause it's not always obvious what it's covering20:08
annegentle_russellb: or a link to a doc20:08
ttxrussellb: that will also let us suggest better tests to cover that capbility20:08
russellbttx: indeed20:09
russellbi submitted one pull request to the list to fix one issue :)20:09
zehicle_at_dellrussellb, I'd love to have collaboration on that.  I'm updating the json source and we'd take pull to fix them20:09
dhellmannrussellb: was that the mis-placed test or the name of compute-auth? or was that the same issue?20:09
russellbi put a patch up for the mis-placed test20:09
ttxvishy, annegentle: let me know if there is anything blocking your +1 on that one20:09
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russellbdidn't fix compute-auth yet, because we didn't have the clarification yet20:09
russellbas in ... was the name right, or the test right20:10
russellbbased on the clarifications, sounds like the list of tests was the important part, and we could suggest a better name20:10
zehicle_at_dellDefCore's expectation was the technical community owns which tests are in the capabilities20:10
zehicle_at_dellyou will not get push back from changes like that20:10
annegentle_ttx: I still would like an explanation for a 0.520:11
annegentle_ttx: in the text itself, but I won't block because of it20:11
russellbannegentle: hm?20:11
dhellmannannegentle_: 0.5 was DefCore's way of saying "we don't know"20:11
russellbwhich 0.5s?20:11
dhellmannoh, you want that added...20:11
ttxannegentle: you mean, what 0.5 would mean ? There shouldn't be any left20:11
annegentle_ttx: on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100721/3/resolutions/20140617-defcore-capabilities-scoring.rst20:11
zehicle_at_dellthat's exactly right.  We don't want them in the final20:11
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ttxannegentle: oh on the original version?20:12
russellbthat was just the import, to make it easier to then see the specific changes we were making20:12
ttxI think that original version was just a convenient way to get proposed scores up. We shouldn't block on that20:12
ttx0.5 was basically like "??" asking for feedback20:12
annegentle_right original version. but it's also okay to bring it in as it was without an explanation for 0.5s20:12
zehicle_at_dellttx, +120:12
dhellmannthat's right, I imported the data from the spreadsheet exactly as it came in so the 2nd patch could show the diff20:12
annegentle_ttx: and all I wanted was an explanation of what 0.5 meant20:13
ttxyeah, at this point I wouldn't block it on that20:13
russellbcan we add that as a follow-up patch?20:13
annegentle_ttx: fair enough20:13
russellbthen we won't lose existing +1s on that point20:13
annegentle_russellb: that makes sense esp. if it's a full-on exactly copy import20:13
dhellmannannegentle_: line 36 of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100721/3/resolutions/20140617-defcore-capabilities-scoring.rst20:13
russellbbut can still add it to clarify i suppose20:13
annegentle_dhellmann: ah there we go!20:13
ttxah, it's already there :)20:14
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russellbso do we have +1s from everyone here?20:14
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dhellmannannegentle_ hasn't voted on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100722/20:15
ttxno vishy and no annegentle  yet20:15
ttxanyway I'll confirm the vote tomorrow, to give a chance for people not present at the meeting to scream20:15
ttxbut this sounds like 99% there20:15
russellbah, makes sense :)20:15
devanandayea, those changes LGTM20:15
ttxdevananda: hi!20:16
devanandattx: hi :)20:16
ttxcool, let's move on20:16
annegentle_on it, thanks ttx, voted20:16
ttx#topic Integrated projects and new requirements: Gap analysis for Heat20:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Integrated projects and new requirements: Gap analysis for Heat (Meeting topic: tc)"20:16
ttxzaneb: o/20:16
ttxWe are left with two projects in this analysis: Swift and Heat20:16
ttxI tried to get Swift on the agenda for today but John wasn't available20:16
zaneb#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/heat-gap-analysis20:17
ttxZane accepted that we do Heat instead, so here we go ^20:17
ttxthanks for the last minute run :)20:17
zanebnp, it turned out to be less work than I expected20:17
ttxok, let's go through that20:17
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ttxzaneb: so you'll need to propose the mission statement for addition to the governance repo20:18
russellbsounds like the biggest (only?) thing is more functional test coverage?20:18
dhellmannzaneb: for "leverage existing functionality" on line 78, does heat still use ceilometer alarms to trigger operations?20:18
ttx#info Gap: missing mission statement20:18
zanebdhellmann: yes20:18
dhellmannzaneb: ok, I added a note about that20:19
zanebthanks :)20:19
* russellb thinks Heat has done an excellent job20:19
russellbi think we just need to add #info Gap: need increased functional test coverage20:20
zanebthanks russellb :)20:20
mikalWell, and the mission statement thing20:21
russellbright, that was noted above20:21
zanebyep, and the grenade stuff is in progress, but it wouldn't hurt to track it20:21
mikalAhhh, I see, you're proposing an #info, not summarizing20:21
ttx#info Gap: need increased functional test coverage20:21
russellbd'oh, missed the grenade one20:21
devanandazaneb: was the name "Heat" checked for TM conflicts?20:21
zanebrussellb: right at the bottom20:21
russellbyep see it now20:21
zanebdevananda: not that I know of20:21
annegentle_I have a question about how backwards compatibility for Identity API v2.0 is handled20:21
devanandazaneb: i see your comment regarding "OpenStack Orchestration" bu tI think taht line refers to the short name as well20:21
annegentle_or if it is already and I missed it20:22
russellbttx: #info Gap: need upgrade testing using grenade20:22
markmcclain1zaneb: what does good unit test coverage work out to be?20:22
devanandazaneb: so that seems like it should be done20:22
ttxrussellb: I think you can #info yourself20:22
dhellmanndo we need to do the marketing team review of the name (line 253)?20:22
russellbttx: orly ... thought chair had to20:22
russellb#info Gap: need upgrade testing using grenade20:23
ttxrussellb: we'll see that :20:23
devanandadhellmann: i think we need to check for potential TM conflicts now20:23
ttx#info Gap: need upgrade testing using grenade (regression check)20:23
devanandaeg, to avoid havign to change the project's codename20:23
dhellmanndevananda: right20:23
zanebannegentle_: we have a shim to for the Keystone v2 API to the extent that it contains the features we need. we plan to keep it around until the v2 api is removed20:23
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russellbwas assuming that was done long ago?  the TM check that is20:24
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ttxrussellb: yes it was done20:24
dhellmannrussellb: the etherpad implies maybe not20:24
ttxdhellmann: that requirement is mostly n/a for existing projects20:24
zanebttx: ah, OK. I wasn't aware that it was done20:24
ttxunless a challenge comes20:24
dhellmannttx: ok20:24
ttxand the challenger can claim previous usage20:25
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ttxIs there anything to do around docs ? (the three kinds of docs note)20:26
zanebthere have been some discussions with annegentle about where the template authoring guide should live20:27
zanebI don't know that there's been a conclusion yet20:27
ttxNot sure I would count that as a gap though20:27
dhellmanndoes it live somewhere now and you want to move it, or does it not exist yet?20:28
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zanebdhellmann: yes, it lives in the developer documentation20:28
zanebwhich is a somewhat odd place for it20:28
dhellmannok, at least it's there *somewhere* then :-)20:28
ttxfwiw I'd say that Heat development is going quite well, especially considering that it's the 2nd or 3rd largest Openstack project in terms of activity20:28
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ttxdepending on the way you twist stackalytics data20:29
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ttxAny other gap worth mentioning ?20:29
annegentleonthebsorry catching up after getting dropped off wifi20:29
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annegentleonthebWe have a blueprint that we're doing details on to try to integrate a hot template guide into the user guide20:30
zanebI never did find any Dashboard docs20:30
annegentleonthebgood discussion earlier about integration20:30
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annegentleonthebzaneb: the dashboard is documented in the user guide20:30
zanebpossibly because I am just clueless20:30
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ttxzaneb: that's because you instinctively keep away from user guides20:31
zanebannegentleontheb: including the Heat part of the dashboard?20:31
annegentleontheb#link http://docs.openstack.org/user-guide/content/20:31
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annegentleonthebzaneb: you can certainly add it, that's where it goes20:31
zanebit appears it is :) ^20:32
annegentleonthebzaneb: pretty much that's organized by use case, ah there you go20:32
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annegentleonthebzaneb: how are your API docs doing? I see updates so that's good20:32
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zanebannegentleontheb: they're pretty good, but could use more examples20:33
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ttxwow, the internetz are not in good shape today20:33
annegentlezaneb: sure20:33
annegentlemy internetz are not, sorry. :(20:33
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devanandazaneb: where do you sit w.r.t. the recent discussions around Tempest testing vs. in-project testing? I ask because there's a call out for lack of functional testing right now20:34
anteayaannegentle: not you, been net splitting all day20:34
zaneband maybe longer descriptions20:34
annegentleanteaya: whew.20:34
ttxlooks like markmcclain and dhellmann are sharing your wifi hotspot20:34
* dhellmann bypassed his bouncer when everyone else started having problems20:34
ttxOK, anything else ? That makes 3 gaps so far20:35
annegentlethat's all I had20:35
markmcclainnah… I'm on a tether but the nearest cell tower is barely in range out here20:35
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devanandattx: I dont see any other gaps. just curious about their testing plans20:36
ttxzaneb: for a future meeting (not necessarily next week) you should build a wiki page with a plan to address the gap in the near future20:36
zanebok, can do20:36
ttxmodels are linked from https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee20:36
ttxLike https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee/Neutron_Gap_Coverage20:36
ttxonly a lot shorter :)20:36
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zanebwhew ;)20:37
* markmcclain will be happy when that list is complete20:37
anteayalast week helped20:37
ttxzaneb: when the gap coverage plan is ready we'll quickly bless it at the meeting, then after each milestone we'll review progress towards completing it20:37
ttxAny other comment on that ? Or can we move to next topic ?20:38
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ttxI'll take that as a NO20:38
ttxand a YES20:38
ttxzaneb: thanks!20:38
zanebpleasure! :)20:39
ttx#topic Election behavior guidelines redux20:39
*** openstack changes topic to "Election behavior guidelines redux (Meeting topic: tc)"20:39
ttxdhellman_ posted a new proposal after the last meeting:20:39
ttx* 2014-07-11 Election Activities (https://review.openstack.org/106557)20:39
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ttxI'm fine with this one20:39
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ttxbut then I'm also fine with the latest versions of the others, since I think they all reach the goal of communicating expected behavior20:40
ttxso imho whichever reaches majority vote first shall be picked20:40
anteayalet's go with doug's, markmc likes it20:40
ttxI don't think we need to discuss this forever, so if by the next TC meeting we can't get majority to approve on one, I propose we use regular rules (>=5 "+1" and <=4 "-1") to approve one20:40
ttxSo please +1 the versions you support asap :)20:40
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ttxor if you want to get a quick --amend in, now is the time to ask for it20:41
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dhellmanneglynn does have one good comment on patch 1 on my version about clarifying how the subset of the TC overseeing the election gets involved if something happens before an election actually starts20:42
dhellmannI just saw it, so I don't have a good fix, yet20:42
ttxdhellmann: could that be clarified in some other doc, like https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Election_Officiating_Guidelines ?20:43
devananda6 +1's already :)20:43
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dhellmannttx: sure, that's a good way to handle it20:43
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dhellmannttx: should I reword to refer to that doc, or is a comment enough?20:44
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* ttx reads the comment20:44
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annegentledhellmann: ttx: do you expect the election officials to report it to the ED or not?20:44
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* annegentle looking at line 5420:45
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annegentleI can comment inline too20:45
russellbannegentle: keep reading :)20:45
russellb2 paragraphs later20:45
dhellmannannegentle: only in extreme cases (line 67)20:45
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dhellmannand then only if the active TC members decide that is necessary20:45
annegentledhellmann: ok... not sure I am +1 on that, seems like we are trying to protect "our own" (one possible perception)20:46
annegentledhellmann: but yours does seem the most close to what we want20:46
markmcclainannegentle: do don't forget that someone feels that we are20:46
dhellmannthe point is to have a way to say "hey, knock it off" without having it go on someone's permanent record20:46
russellbi just read it as likely unnecessary20:46
anteayaactually I see it as a spectrum20:46
ttxdhellmann: I think it's pretty obvious that the TC is involved, except the TC members that happen to run for said election20:46
markmcclainthey always have the community right to report directly20:46
anteayafirst stop is tc20:46
annegentlemarkmcclain: true, fair enough20:46
ttxdhellmann: you could imagine a PTL election where a TC member is running20:46
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ttxdhellmann: for such case, I'd expect all the TC members that are not running on that election to be involved in resolving issues20:47
annegentlepretty sure "extreme" will vary widely in definition20:47
dhellmannttx: good point20:47
zanebdhellmann, annegentle: how about "in the case of an alleged violation of the Community Code of Conduct" rather than "In an especially extreme case"?20:47
dhellmannannegentle: I'm also trying to indicate that I trust the future elected group to decide what that is, but that it should not be the way we handle things by default20:48
annegentlezaneb: if that's the intent... extreme could mean "wide reaching" or "got to the press"20:48
dhellmannannegentle: and of course, as anteaya has pointed out, there's nothing preventing any foundation member from reporting to the ED directly20:48
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dhellmannif they feel the election officials or TC aren't doing their jobs properly20:48
ttxdhellmann: so I guess that could use a clarification that doesn't talk about "active members of the TC" but rather "members of the TC that are not candidates in the election involved"20:48
annegentledhellmann: yeah I still sense the ED should take the brunt of investigation I guess, rather than TC, since we're so close to it20:48
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eglynnzaneb: my $0.02 ... s/violation/infringement/ (the former is a little loaded)20:48
dhellmannzaneb: I don't want to imply that every report is going to the ED20:49
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dhellmannttx: ok, I can add that20:49
ttxannegentle: we should be mostly self-sufficient though, as long as the CCoC is not invoked20:49
dhellmannannegentle: in previous meetings we've talked about the community dealing with its own issues, without bringing the foundation into every little discussion20:49
zanebdhellmann: fair enough. after years of reading RFCs the difference between MAY and MUST is quite clear in my mind, maybe more so than in the general population ;)20:49
annegentlettx: ok, that's true, and the electorate should be comfortable reaching out to at least one TC member20:50
ttxand I agree with dhellmann that the CCoC/ED can always be involved in case that doesn't work20:50
annegentledhellmann: ok20:50
dhellmannzaneb: fair point20:50
dhellmannso let me make sure I know what wording needs to change...20:50
annegentleok I can vote +1 after extreme is reworded20:51
dhellmannis it just clarifying that anyone involved in the election is not going to be involved?20:51
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dhellmannor should I change the "extreme" part to just say "in some cases"?20:51
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dhellmannor should that explicitly mention the CoC?20:52
anteayaat the discretion of the consulted tc20:52
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ttxI think "extreme" is the correct adjective for it20:52
markmcthe TC doesn't necessarily have to be the ones to refer it to the ED20:52
dhellmannhmm, that sentence already uses CoC20:52
markmcthe reporter could go ahead and do that even if the TC didn't feel it necessary20:53
dhellmannmarkmc: true, does it need to say that?20:53
markmccould just say it's up to the reporter to refer it?20:53
ttxoh yes, missed that20:53
markmcdunno, don't love that option either20:53
eglynnmarkmc: +120:53
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zanebmarkmc: I think having something in there makes it clear that the TC can decide to refer it without asking further permission from the reporter20:54
ttx"In extreme cases, community members always have the option to refer..."20:54
anteayattx the option exists extreme or not20:54
markmcthe TC will be holding all the information though20:54
dhellmannzaneb: right, that was my intent -- saying what we might do, not constraining what the community can do20:54
markmce.g. where multiple people reported the issue20:54
eglynnzaneb: that would raise the stakes of reporting unnecessarily I think20:54
dhellmannmarkmc: in that case, I would expect the ED to ask the TC for details20:54
zanebeglynn: yeah, it's a double edged sword. but at least it makes the position clear20:55
* markmc shrugs20:55
ttx"Community members always retain the option to refer..." ?20:55
markmcI don't think we need to decide up front how it would work20:55
markmcescalation, I mean20:55
markmcjust that it can happen20:55
anteayattx that wording it more consistent with reality, for me20:55
markmceither via the reporter or the TC20:55
ttx"Note that community members always retain the option to refer..." ?20:55
markmcclaindhellmann: agreed20:55
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dhellmannthe CoC has instructions for reporting violations, right? do we need to reiterate the community's rights to follow those instructions here?20:56
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ttxdhellmann: I think it helps to do it yes20:56
dhellmannok, I'll add that20:56
ttxpeople just don't know what options they have20:56
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ttxif we write such a resolution, we really need to mention that option... we just need to make it a bit off-track20:56
dhellmannsure, that's a good point20:56
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ttx"retain the option" is a good way to mention it without overly encouraging it20:57
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annegentledhellmann: I agree, "retain the option" is fine20:57
ttxok, so we should have a new patchset for this one, but let's try to get it adopted -- I'm getting tired of nitpicking it to death20:58
ttx#topic Pending governance changes20:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Pending governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)"20:58
ttx* Adding Horizon mission statement (https://review.openstack.org/102050)20:58
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ttxThis one is still short of one "+1" before reaching majority voting20:58
ttx* Add translation support requirement (https://review.openstack.org/97872)20:58
ttxI propose we WIP this one until tests are implemented.20:58
markmcttx, yeah, agree on tired of this - feels like rough consensus, and the details now don't matter so much20:58
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ttx(it's a requirements change and those can only reflect consensual rules)20:59
ttxlet me know if that works for you20:59
ttx#topic Open discussion20:59
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:59
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ttx"K" release naming poll still going at https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/openstack-k-naming20:59
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ttxResults shall be announced early Thursday20:59
ttxWho is at OSCON next week?20:59
dhellmannnew draft of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106557 is up20:59
devanandaI'll be there fri-sun20:59
ttxShould we skip next week meeting ?20:59
markmcI'm at OSCON tuesday and wednesday21:00
devanandathen at the tripleo meetup mon-thu21:00
markmcmorded and I are giving a talk starting 40 minutes into the TC meeting21:00
markmcunclear whether we'll make the meeting21:00
markmcalso, 2 weeks after that I'm on vacation so missing the meetings21:00
ttxI'm fine with skipping it21:00
markmcapols for that21:00
ttxsince I have no idea where I'll be21:00
ttxalso it's j2 week21:00
mikalSounds like we should skip it21:00
annegentlenot at oscon21:00
annegentleprobably skip, yeah21:01
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devananda+ skip21:01
ttxso the meeting after that we'll have the post-j2 gap coverage progress21:01
russellbskip fine with me since so many folks are out21:01
ttxand then the meetign after that we'll have the Swift gap analysis21:01
ttxLooks like we might complete that this cycle after all21:01
ttxOK, i'll propose we skip next week21:02
ttxThanks everyone21:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 15 21:02:25 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-15-20.03.html21:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-15-20.03.txt21:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-15-20.03.log.html21:02
markmcthanks ttx21:02
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ttxdhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ?21:02
ttx#startmeeting project21:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 15 21:03:18 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)"21:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'project'21:03
ttxAgenda for today is available at:21:03
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting21:03
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ttx#topic News from the 1:1 sync points21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "News from the 1:1 sync points (Meeting topic: project)"21:03
ttxWe had 1:1 syncs today, here is the log:21:03
ttxNot much there21:03
ttxKey announcement was that russellb would handle juno-2 tagging, so he'll be in touch with you all next week21:04
ttxMost projects look a bit late -- loads of stuff in review21:04
mikalrussellb: in IRC? or email?21:04
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russellbmikal: either.  for us, maybe email is better?21:04
ttxSergeyLukjanov: you wanted to mention progres on sahara horizon integration ?21:04
mikalrussellb: sure, whatever works21:04
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russellbjust need everyone's help to clear out the j2 pages next week, aim to do it by tuesday or wednesday21:04
ttxmy advice would be to land what you can ASAP since gate load is likely to go up on Monday/Tuesday next week21:05
devanandarussellb: tagging incubated projects too?21:05
russellbdevananda: yes21:05
zanebrussellb: I'll be out Monday & Tuesday, so I'll find someone to co-ordinate with you on those days21:05
russellbthough i won't block anything if they're not ready21:05
SergeyLukjanovthere is a good progress on merging sahara-dashboard to horizon, thanks for david-lyle for bumping prio21:05
russellbzaneb: OK, just let me know who21:05
devanandaironic is a bit behind -- we just landed specs for several features targeted to j2 (most of the code was written in parallel)21:05
mesteryrussellb: ++21:05
dolphmi also wanted to make everyone aware of this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/134227421:06
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1342274 in neutron "auth_token middleware in keystoneclient is deprecated" [Undecided,In progress]21:06
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dolphmwhich i alluded to in a keystone 1:1 #info21:06
dolphmbasically we've split auth_token into it's own package so keystoneclient doesn't have to carry wsgi deps21:06
devanandadolphm: what should I look for to determine if ironic is affected? I am fairly sure we use that ...21:06
ttxdolphm: would be cool to complete it for juno-2, just in case packagers take it21:06
dolphmso, bknudson is proposing patches to switch everyone over to keystonemiddleware.auth_token21:07
eglynnBrant Knudson is gonna push the changes across all projects? ... nice :)21:07
dhellmanndolphm: does that apply for stable branches, too, or just juno and beyond?21:07
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ttxBrant Knudson wants to vote for all PTLs elections21:07
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eglynnttx: LOL :)21:07
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mikalSimilarly, I've just released a new python-novaclient that should hopefully address Heat's problems (thanks heaps to russellb for the fix)21:07
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* devananda waits for the split to finish21:07
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dolphmdhellmann: good question... we shouldn't affect previous stable branches21:08
dolphmerm, net split?21:08
ttxdolphm: yes, but quick one21:08
ttxmagnitude 421:08
dhellmanndolphm: ok, good21:08
devanandabknudson: are you also proposing updates to incubated projects (eg ironic)?21:08
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devanandabknudson: or have an example somewhere I can copy?21:08
ttxdevananda: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102342/21:09
bknudsondevananda: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/branch:master+topic:keystonemiddleware,n,z21:09
dolphmdevananda: you can borrow the approach in nova's patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102342/21:09
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bknudsonthose are the ones that are proposed to the projects I had repos for21:09
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ttxok, other highlights from the 1:1 syncs that you want to make ?21:09
bknudsonit's generally only a couple of lines... ceilometer had some tests that were using internals of auth_token so had more changes21:10
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ttx#topic Other program news21:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Other program news (Meeting topic: project)"21:10
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ttxInfra, QA, Docs... anything you'd like to mention ?21:10
eglynnbknudson: ... always the wayward child ;)21:10
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annegentlettx: did I mention already that there's a template for incubating teams for oslosphinx now?21:11
ttxguess not21:11
* annegentle was typing21:11
ttxannegentle: I.. don't think you did21:11
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ttxannegentle: link?21:12
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annegentlettx: the configuration is in the oslosphinx README.rst21:12
ttxok, cool21:12
* annegentle looks21:12
dhellmann#link https://pypi.python.org/pypi/oslosphinx21:12
annegentle#link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslosphinx/tree/README.rst21:12
* dhellmann makes a note to write some documentation for the documentation theme package21:13
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annegentledefault is non-incubating21:13
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annegentledhellmann: yeah I had it in one of the What's Up Doc but wanted to be sure people know21:13
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dhellmannannegentle: good idea21:13
ttx#info Expect keystonemiddleware support patches: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/134227421:13
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1342274 in neutron "auth_token middleware in keystoneclient is deprecated" [Undecided,In progress]21:13
annegentlettx: that's all for now from docs21:13
ttxok, next topic then21:14
ttx#topic Surprise last-minute blueprints, or code being developed in parallel with specs21:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Surprise last-minute blueprints, or code being developed in parallel with specs (Meeting topic: project)"21:14
ttxI wanted to reflect back on the -specs experience from the viewpoint of feature predictability21:14
ttxOne of the things we want to communicate out is a list of probably incoming features21:14
ttxWe do that using the blueprint system, and produce integrated views at http://status.openstack.org/release/21:14
ttxWhich are used by various downstream stakeholders21:14
ttxIt's always been difficult to predict correctly, but we must try to make sure this communication represents our best approximation21:15
ttxI was hoping that the -specs process and the "clean" blueprint views (with only spec-approved and priority-set blueprints present in milestone pages) would actually improve our prediction21:15
ttxBut it looks like in lots of projects we have the opposite result...21:15
annegentleand you found... ah.21:15
ttxSpecs and code are being developed at the same time, so specs approved very late in a milestone can still have code that actually makes it21:15
eglynnttx: yeap, that's been the reality in my experience21:15
devanandaIn Ironic, I've seen most of the predictable features being implemented in parallel with the spec21:15
ttxSince unapproved specs do not appear in the milestone pages, this results in last-minute addition of targeted blueprints21:15
eglynndevananda: same in ceilo21:15
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devanandaOTOH, the much larger features have benefitted immensely (IMO) from the forethought required by a specs process21:16
ttxSo I feel like we actually had better prediction BEFORE, with blueprints appearing on the release radar earlier21:16
dolphmdevananda: i would agree with that21:16
SlickNikdevananda: That's been my experience with trove as well.21:16
russellbi feel like in nova, it definitely at least throttled blueprint approval21:16
dhellmanndevananda: +121:16
ttxDo you think it is a systemic issue with the -specs workflow, or just a temporary side-effect until we build a healthy spec/implementation pipeline ?21:16
devanandaso things that require a full cycle or more end up with no BP targeted at all for a while21:16
eglynndevananda: maybe apply specs process more selectively?21:16
mesterySome of that has happened in neutron as well21:16
mikalrussellb: agreed21:16
mikalI think its also caused a lot of frustration from developers, but got people to focus on some stuff we really needed21:16
mesteryttx: I'd like to think it's a temporary issue as people get used to the specs repo workflow, but maybe I'm just dreaming.21:16
mikalLike the vmware refactor21:16
eglynni.e. only require for the larger features?21:16
devanandaI would really like to be able to target BPs before approving them21:16
devanandait's crazy, i know21:16
devanandabut as a way of expressing my intent21:17
russellbmikal: maybe that's just an effect specific to a larger project more overwhelmed with crap blueprint submissions21:17
devananda"I think we should do $this before $that"21:17
devanandaeven if both are still in the spec process21:17
dhellmanndevananda: I did that for planning before the summit21:17
russellbmikal: the throttling (and more realistic roadmap) effect i mean21:17
zanebttx: I think launchpad issues will only be fixed by replacing launchpad. specs is just a better place than the wiki/ML to comment on designs21:17
devanandai've used a google doc to capture the results of the summit prioritization meeting we had21:17
ttxdevananda: so we could do that... use some weird Launchpad status to track that a spec is actually blocked because it's not approved yet21:17
notmynameseems that -specs are a tool for devs and blueprints are a tool for project managers. which is why -specs have been largely cheered and blueprints largely booed. so I wouldn't expect -specs to solve a project manager problem21:17
devanandanotmyname: well said21:18
zanebnotmyname: ++21:18
eglynnain't that the truth21:18
dolphmkeystone tried to implement a solution to this and sort of fell on our face by overly complicating the -spec process... but the gist was for -specs to be proposed & approved first with ONLY a problem description (no proposed solution) ... seemed like a good idea at the time21:18
dolphmand later move those problem descriptions from a next/ dir to juno/ or whatever with a proposed solution21:18
devanandathe real benefit I've seen with specs has been in sussing out the implications of a change21:18
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eglynndolphm: fell on it's face because it was too subtle a process?21:19
dhellmannwe've been slow to approve specs in oslo, but we've definitely caught issues in the process21:19
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dolphmeglynn: added too many extra steps for spec writers, and gerrit diffs weren't terribly useful21:19
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ttxI think we can fix the black hole that we created in Launchpad while still keeping the specs process and retaining LP as a downstream communication tool21:19
ttxfor example by using Blocked as a status21:19
eglynnso I think the specs process has differing value depending on the chunkiness and/or radical nature of the proposed change21:20
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ttxto communicate that the spec is expected to be approved but not there yet21:20
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russellbttx: that sounds like it could work21:20
russellbttx: or at least proposed and not approved?21:20
dhellmannttx: there are separate fields for approving the definition and the direction, would it make sense to use those?21:21
mesteryttx: That's what I did with a few BPs to be honest21:21
russellbhow would you differentiate between stuff not yet approved and stuff not yet approved, but we think it probably will be soonish21:21
mesteryI used blocked for that on a few, but was inconsistent.21:21
devanandattx: eg, direction:approved, definition:drafting, implementation:blocked, milestone:$something ?21:21
dhellmann"this blueprint identifies a problem we want to fix -- definition approved" vs. "this solution looks like it is correct -- direction approved"21:21
ttxdevananda: yes21:21
annegentledhellmann: that's a really really good point21:21
devanandattx: +121:22
ttxI can tweak spec2bp to facilitate setting the rigth statuses21:22
dolphmdoes everyone expect a bp to be created first, or a spec?21:22
devanandadolphm: same time21:22
eglynndolphm: spec first21:22
dolphmdevananda: when the spec is proposed or merged?21:22
devanandadolphm: bp should be registered when the spec is proposed21:22
mikalWe ask for a URL to the bp in the spec21:22
dhellmannyeah, I had to go rename quite a few bps but the spec is supposed to link to them so they both come into being around the same time21:22
devananda^ exactly21:22
ttxso spec2bp would set the spec "blocked" while not approved, and clear that when the spec is approved21:22
dolphmmikal: on my latest spec, i just made up an intended url, and opened the bp when the spec was merged :-/21:23
mesterydolphm: BP then spec, that makes it easier, as the spec includes a link to the BP (at least for neutron)21:23
dhellmannttx: blocked vs. setting the direction/definition approval separately?21:23
ttxdhellmann: in addition to21:23
ttxspec2bp would help setting all that's needed21:23
* dhellmann is going to need new instructions for how to put a bp in a milestone without having it removed21:24
ttxdhellmann: the only thing that gets you removed is missing priority21:24
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ttxI'll come up with a proposal and tooling to help setting stuff in LP without having to interact with the UI21:25
dhellmannone other thing on spec2bp21:25
dhellmannas I said, I had trouble with names not matching up a few times21:25
ttxI think that will reduce the under-the-radar- flying we seem to have inadvertantly created21:25
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dhellmanncan that be made smarter somehow? (not sure how smart we want it to be)21:26
dhellmannmaybe look at the link in the spec?21:26
ttxis there always a link in the spec ?21:26
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ttxI can make it follow it when there is one21:26
dhellmannwell, we could say that's required21:26
russellbshould be, there's a field for it21:26
dhellmannrussellb: everyone has a slightly different template, I think, but we can at least agree on that21:27
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ttxit could also support a --bp option to point to right BP when they don't match, but atht would be a bit of a hassle to specify21:27
dhellmannttx: yeah, I would probably just write myself a wrapper to grep the link out in that case :-)21:27
russellbdhellmann: ah, right ... i was thinking of the other way, the spec field in the blueprint itself21:27
russellbbut yeah, standardizing on having a blueprint link in a spec seems quite reasonable21:28
ttx#action ttx to come up with a proposal to use "blocked" in addition to approval fields and tooling to help setting stuff in LP without having to interact with the UI21:28
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ttx#info spec2bp should better support the case where spec and BP names don't match21:28
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ttxI think that will solve the issue21:29
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ttx#topic Open discussion21:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)"21:29
ttxAnything else, anyone ?21:30
mikalSimilarly, I've just released a new python-novaclient that should hopefully address Heat's problems (thanks heaps to russellb for the fix)21:30
mikal^-- repasted from above when I said it mid split21:30
ttxrussellb: will you run this meeting next week ?21:30
russellbttx: sure21:30
ttxrussellb: only if you have some use for it, or some agenda posted for it21:30
russellbi don't have anything now ...21:31
russellbad-hoc syncs around j2 are probably fine21:31
russellbotherwise this meeting will just be old-style, going through each project21:31
russellblet's just skip.21:31
ttxrussellb: ok21:31
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ttx#info no meeting next week, contact russellb directly for juno-2 sync21:31
russellbi'll hang out in #openstack-relmgr-office as a convenient place to sync with everyone21:32
eglynn... and no 1:1s either?21:32
devanandarussellb: will you be at the nova sprint?21:32
russellbdevananda: yes, but that's the week after21:32
devanandaah, right21:32
ttxeglynn: there will be 1:1 discussions, but not at the scheduled time21:32
ttxeglynn: russellb will contact you directly21:32
eglynnttx: cool, got it21:32
russellbor you can ping me21:33
russellbpinging will occur.21:33
devanandarussellb: i apparently can't keep track of time :)21:33
ttxpinging is a thing21:33
ttxIn other news, one more day to vote on K naming21:33
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russellbvote for Kilo!21:33
mikalOMG, yes please21:33
mikalIts time we went metric21:34
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eglynnrussellb: I'm goning to report you for inappropriate attempts influence an election!21:34
ttxon a public forum though!21:34
SlickNikannegentle: We've spent some time identifying holes in the trove docs. We're currently working on fixing these up.21:34
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ttxI rule it as fair campaigning. Unless you encourage voting for Kyoto21:34
markwashits all about kleber21:35
SlickNikannegentle: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/trove-doc-items FYI - wanted to keep you in the loop.21:35
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dhellmannmarkwash: +121:35
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eglynndhellmann when is the next oslo-messaging release expected?21:35
* eglynn would like to get our hands on the fix for https://bugs.launchpad.net/oslo.messaging/+bug/134208821:35
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1342088 in oslo.messaging "Exchanges lock disregarded in the fake driver implementation" [Low,Fix committed]21:35
dhellmanneglynn: we can make a release tomorrow, let me check with markmc to make sure he's not waiting for something else first21:36
eglynn(may be related to the strange timeout issue we're seeing in a test in ceilo that uses RPC fanout)21:36
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eglynndhellmann: great, thank you sir!21:36
* russellb can't wait to get his hands on a Kilo of OpenStack21:36
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eglynnalso seeing as the QA folks are all in conclave this week, might not be the best time to bring this up ... but21:37
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eglynntowards the tail-end of that branchless Tempest ML thread I kicked off after last week's meeting21:37
SlickNikdhellmann: We're also making good progress moving trove to oslo.messaging. (FYI https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94484/)21:37
eglynn... the wind was blowing in the direction of pushing functional test suites into the individual projects21:37
eglynne.g. http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-July/040128.html21:37
dhellmannSlickNik: fantastic! :-)21:37
ttxeglynn: it did indeed21:37
dhellmanneglynn: email sent21:37
dhellmannrussellb: careful not to make that joke in a US airport21:38
russellbdhellmann: i may be on a list for saying it on IRC21:38
dhellmannrussellb: I don't know you.21:38
* eglynn wonders if we need some sort of cross-project discussion/aggreement to avoid all rushing off in different directions on that?21:38
russellbeglynn: +121:38
SlickNikdhellmann: esp who's been working on getting it done, tells me he still has a few kinks to work out, but we're looking forward to getting that landed soon. Will keep you posted on the progress on that front. Thanks!21:38
russellbon the need for careful coordination at least :)21:38
ttxeglynn: I hope it will be a topic at the QA sprint21:39
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dhellmanneglynn: is that a topic for a cross-project summit session or are you hoping to have it resolved before then?21:39
eglynnttx: k, prolly should wait on an explicit report back from the sprint21:39
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eglynndhellmann: yes, leastways a K* summit session21:39
dhellmannSlickNik: sounds good, thanks for keeping us updated21:39
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ttxeglynn: i feel like the proposal was mostly set up as a strawman, not a fully-formed direction yet21:39
ttxso it should solidify first21:40
eglynnttx: yes, I got that impression also21:40
eglynnok, fair nuffski if no one is rushing off the blocks yet21:40
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ttxok, anything else before we close?21:41
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ttxwell, then...21:42
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:42
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 15 21:42:04 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:42
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-15-21.03.html21:42
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-15-21.03.txt21:42
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-15-21.03.log.html21:42
eglynngood night all!21:42
dhellmannthanks everyone!21:42
ttxThanks everyone and good night21:42
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