| jogo | mordred: not meed daily, but do 'homework' daily | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
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| mordred | jogo: bah | 00:02 |
| jogo | mordred: at least I don't wanta daily quiz ;) | 00:03 |
| * mordred starts sending jogo daily quizzes | 00:04 | |
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| * jogo drops mordred's clasand looks for a nicer teacher | 00:06 | |
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| cody-somerville | jogo: mordred: https://h30495.www3.hp.com/news/119/scheduled-delivery-next-step-web-connected-printin | 00:08 |
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| mordred | cody-somerville: zomg | 00:09 |
| mordred | cody-somerville: I can cause a quiz to print out once a day at jogo's house? | 00:09 |
| cody-somerville | Yar. Through the power of the cloud no less. | 00:10 |
| mordred | d00d | 00:10 |
| * jogo doesn't have a printer :) | 00:11 | |
| cody-somerville | jogo: I bet we can fix that ;) | 00:12 |
| jogo | haha | 00:12 |
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| zaneb | #startmeeting heat | 12:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 6 12:00:39 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is zaneb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 12:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 12:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'heat' | 12:00 |
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| zaneb | tspatzier: interested in chairing today? | 12:01 |
| *** mspreitz has joined #openstack-meeting | 12:01 | |
| tspatzier | zaneb: sure | 12:01 |
| asalkeld | zaneb, getting weary of the chair | 12:01 |
| *** BillArnold has joined #openstack-meeting | 12:01 | |
| zaneb | #chair tspatzier | 12:01 |
| openstack | Current chairs: tspatzier zaneb | 12:01 |
| mspreitz | hi | 12:01 |
| BillArnold | hi | 12:01 |
| tspatzier | zaneb: ok, let's see how I do ;) | 12:02 |
| Qiming | o/ | 12:02 |
| tspatzier | #startmeeting heat | 12:02 |
| zaneb | asalkeld: it's 8am, hard enough to just function normally ;) | 12:02 |
| openstack | tspatzier: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress. Use #endmeeting first. | 12:02 |
| *** pas-ha has joined #openstack-meeting | 12:02 | |
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| skraynev | hey :) | 12:02 |
| pas-ha | o/ | 12:02 |
| asalkeld | 10pm here | 12:02 |
| bgorski | o/ | 12:02 |
| zaneb | tspatzier: I already started the meeting, but I set you as a chair | 12:02 |
| tspatzier | ok | 12:02 |
| tspatzier | #topic rollcall | 12:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:02 | |
| asalkeld | o/ | 12:03 |
| BillArnold | hi | 12:03 |
| skraynev | again?)) | 12:03 |
| tspatzier | sorry guys, doing this the first time, so bare with me ;) | 12:03 |
| mspreitz | I'll keep my clothes on, if you don't mind | 12:04 |
| tspatzier | #topic Review last week's actions | 12:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review last week's actions (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:04 | |
| zaneb | ugh, I didn't create the agenda for this week | 12:04 |
| pas-ha | and there were no actions | 12:04 |
| skraynev | tspatzier: norm, do not worry :) | 12:04 |
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| tspatzier | there were no actions :) | 12:05 |
| tspatzier | so moving on | 12:05 |
| tspatzier | #topic adding items to the agend | 12:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "adding items to the agend (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:05 | |
| tspatzier | #topic adding items to the agenda | 12:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "adding items to the agenda (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:05 | |
| zaneb | hmm, we should have had an action for stevebaker to update the gap closing wiki page | 12:05 |
| pas-ha | btw, speaking of actions = what happened to Rax CI/CD job? is it on? | 12:05 |
| tspatzier | according to the log there was none | 12:06 |
| zaneb | #action zaneb check with stevebaker about progress on gap coverage plan | 12:06 |
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| tspatzier | ok, regarding the agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda#Agenda_.282014-07-30_2000_UTC.29 | 12:06 |
| tspatzier | anything to add? | 12:06 |
| tspatzier | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda#Agenda_.282014-07-30_2000_UTC.29 | 12:07 |
| zaneb | that's last week's | 12:07 |
| tspatzier | damn | 12:07 |
| ryansb | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda#Agenda_.282014-08-06_1200_UTC.29 | 12:07 |
| zaneb | #link: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda#Agenda_.282014-08-06_1200_UTC.29 | 12:07 |
| ryansb | ftfy | 12:07 |
| zaneb | I just added it like 1 minute ago | 12:07 |
| asalkeld | how do we keep up with the convergence meetup? | 12:07 |
| * zaneb is not very organised this week | 12:08 | |
| zaneb | asalkeld: you mean the heat meetup, not the tripleo meetup right? | 12:08 |
| asalkeld | yip | 12:08 |
| * asalkeld feeling left out | 12:09 | |
| asalkeld | might be hard given the tz difference | 12:09 |
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| zaneb | ok, let's put that on the agenda | 12:10 |
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| tspatzier | doing it right now... | 12:10 |
| zaneb | it's going to be a short meeting anyway, I suspect :) | 12:10 |
| tspatzier | #topic Keeping up to date on the Heat mid-cycle meet-up | 12:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Keeping up to date on the Heat mid-cycle meet-up (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:11 | |
| tspatzier | so this is the only topic before critical issues synch | 12:11 |
| asalkeld | given the large review list, is there a way for us to priortise reviews? | 12:11 |
| asalkeld | (so I can focus my reviewing ...) | 12:12 |
| zaneb | btw, small announcement: if you are going to the meetup, check my mailing list post and make sure you are signed up | 12:12 |
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| zaneb | otherwise security will bounce you | 12:12 |
| ryansb | zaneb: checked + signed in. Is starting at 9am still the plan? | 12:13 |
| zaneb | yep | 12:13 |
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| zaneb | ryansb: in your case, bring your employee badge an you'll have no trouble ;) | 12:13 |
| skraynev | zaneb: sound like you have iron man as security :) | 12:13 |
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| ryansb | zaneb: Yup. It lives in my suitcase so I won't forget it. | 12:14 |
| zaneb | ryansb: smart :) | 12:14 |
| * ryansb has a problem with forgetting identification when going places | 12:14 | |
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| zaneb | asalkeld: so etherpads would be one way for folks to keep up | 12:15 |
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| zaneb | but as you said, with the time zones it's going to be tricky | 12:15 |
| asalkeld | zaneb, yip was thinking of that | 12:15 |
| asalkeld | what is planned? | 12:15 |
| zaneb | what parts are you interested in following? | 12:15 |
| ryansb | maybe do a bluejeans sync-up either early morning or late evening to accomadate tz's? | 12:15 |
| asalkeld | in general | 12:16 |
| asalkeld | but maybe the cont. observer | 12:16 |
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| zaneb | ok | 12:16 |
| tspatzier | I'll be on vacation, so would be interested to read things afterwards. etherpads? | 12:16 |
| zaneb | I think the idea is to actually start hacking, more than to just talk about stuff again | 12:16 |
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| zaneb | so maybe daily pushes of working branches to e.g. GitHub might help as well | 12:17 |
| asalkeld | review is better | 12:17 |
| asalkeld | wip | 12:17 |
| tspatzier | so reviews for everyone to stay up to date | 12:17 |
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| zaneb | #info try to push WIP reviews during meetup so non-attendees can follow along at home | 12:18 |
| BillArnold | zaneb +1 that would be very helpful | 12:18 |
| ryansb | +1 | 12:18 |
| skraynev | may be make sense to have one common tag for these reviews? it will allow search easier | 12:18 |
| asalkeld | also a "how to run", so we can give it a go and help out | 12:19 |
| zaneb | skraynev: that's a great idea | 12:19 |
| asalkeld | 24hr hacking | 12:19 |
| skraynev | asalkeld; sounds awesome :) | 12:20 |
| skraynev | asalkeld: and a little crazy ;) | 12:20 |
| asalkeld | just don't want a massive code dump on the reviews that I know nothing about | 12:20 |
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| asalkeld | it's better to get involved early | 12:21 |
| zaneb | #info use branch name "juno-midcycle" to ensure easy filtering of reviews | 12:21 |
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| skraynev | zaneb: thx | 12:21 |
| tspatzier | great, sounds like we have a plan. anything else on this topic? | 12:21 |
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| tspatzier | so moving on ... | 12:22 |
| tspatzier | #topic Critical issues sync | 12:22 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Critical issues sync (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:22 | |
| tspatzier | is there anything critical at the moment? | 12:23 |
| tspatzier | does not seem so | 12:23 |
| tspatzier | #topic open discussion | 12:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:24 | |
| tspatzier | does anyone have anything? | 12:24 |
| mspreitz | I wouldn't mind a little follow-up to last week's beating over ASG health | 12:24 |
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| mspreitz | I have a plan B to discuss | 12:25 |
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| mspreitz | khkhkjhkj | 12:26 |
| mspreitz | ok then.. | 12:26 |
| mspreitz | Plan B is in two parts... | 12:26 |
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| mspreitz | one is to get LB pool member health info into Ceilometer samples; that is not Heat work | 12:27 |
| mspreitz | the other part is a stop-gap while waiting for automatic convergence... | 12:27 |
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| mspreitz | What do you think of this idea: let a scaling group do a check for undermined members and remove them, as part of a resize | 12:27 |
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| mspreitz | undermined = the underlying thing has been deleted, leaving a record in the Resource table whose nova_instance refers to no existing thing | 12:28 |
| mspreitz | ? | 12:28 |
| zaneb | mspreitz: we know we need something to allow the application to choose members to delete on scale-down, so this may tie in with that | 12:28 |
| mspreitz | zaneb: I think these can be mods to distinct parts of the code... | 12:29 |
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| mspreitz | my mod affects the list of existing members handed to the method that produces the new template; Bill's part modifies that method. | 12:29 |
| zaneb | yeah, I saw your definition of 'undermined' after I wrote that | 12:29 |
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| zaneb | so the 'stack check' reviews are I think close to landing | 12:30 |
| mspreitz | although, maybe, there is one little interaction.. | 12:30 |
| zaneb | it would make sense to me if the autoscaling code used something like stack check to check for member health during scaling operations | 12:30 |
| mspreitz | the scale down plugin will be given a list of members already decided to remove; maybe that should include ones detected as undermined. | 12:31 |
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| mspreitz | OK, I'll look at those | 12:31 |
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| zaneb | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/heat+branch:master+topic:bp/stack-check,n,z | 12:33 |
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| mspreitz | thanks for the link | 12:33 |
| zaneb | np | 12:33 |
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| mspreitz | I am done | 12:35 |
| mspreitz | with that topic | 12:35 |
| tspatzier | mspreitz: I think you and BillArnold had some specs. Are they current? | 12:35 |
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| tspatzier | I mean specs on that topic ... | 12:35 |
| mspreitz | I think the spec about autoscaling across AZs is current | 12:35 |
| mspreitz | I will let Bill speak to his | 12:35 |
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| ryansb | What's the current status of the config change for qpid? Did that go out yesterday? | 12:36 |
| BillArnold | Yes, scaledown plugpoing is current | 12:36 |
| mspreitz | My network is flaky right now, can not do much with openstack.org | 12:36 |
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| tspatzier | ok, so that might be worth looking at. | 12:36 |
| tspatzier | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110379 | 12:37 |
| zaneb | ryansb: is this upstream, or in RDO? | 12:37 |
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| ryansb | I think RDO, but I'm not sure, lemme dig up the bug. | 12:38 |
| BillArnold | tspatzier also stack lifecycle plugpoint spec - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106468/ | 12:39 |
| zaneb | ryansb: this is probably the wrong forum to discuss then | 12:39 |
| ryansb | zaneb: right, it is. | 12:39 |
| ryansb | Sorry | 12:40 |
| tspatzier | BillArnold: that one actually looks pretty complete to me. | 12:40 |
| zaneb | ryansb: np, we can discuss after | 12:40 |
| tspatzier | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106468/ | 12:40 |
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| tspatzier | ^^if some cores could look at this if this is good to go? | 12:40 |
| tspatzier | anything else for this meeting? | 12:41 |
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| tspatzier | no - then thanks everyone! | 12:41 |
| asalkeld | zaneb, what's up with the plugin stuff? should I dump that | 12:42 |
| asalkeld | tspatzier, you can end it | 12:42 |
| tspatzier | ok | 12:42 |
| asalkeld | we can chat in #heat | 12:42 |
| tspatzier | #endmeeting | 12:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 12:42 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 6 12:42:24 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 12:42 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2014/heat.2014-08-06-12.00.html | 12:42 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2014/heat.2014-08-06-12.00.txt | 12:42 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2014/heat.2014-08-06-12.00.log.html | 12:42 |
| zaneb | tspatzier: thanks! great job :) | 12:42 |
| tspatzier | zaneb: yw | 12:42 |
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| * annegentle waves | 13:59 | |
| annegentle | who's here for doc team meeting? | 13:59 |
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| annegentle | well I'm here :) | 14:00 |
| annegentle | #startmeeting docteam | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 6 14:00:36 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is annegentle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'docteam' | 14:00 |
| berendt | hello | 14:00 |
| annegentle | hi berendt! | 14:00 |
| NickChase | Hey, all | 14:00 |
| annegentle | hey NickChase | 14:00 |
| annegentle | Agenda is here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/DocTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 14:01 |
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| annegentle | #topic Action items from the last meeting | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:01 | |
| annegentle | regXboi to add list of existing neutron doc bugs to the blueprint wiki page | 14:01 |
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| annegentle | I'm looking | 14:01 |
| annegentle | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/NetworkingGuide/TOC | 14:02 |
| annegentle | Not yet | 14:02 |
| NickChase | he did add some sections to the TOC | 14:02 |
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| NickChase | I wonder if he thought that was what he was supposed to do | 14:03 |
| annegentle | ah maybe so | 14:03 |
| Sam-I-Am | yo | 14:03 |
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| NickChase | hey, sam-i-am | 14:03 |
| annegentle | There's also this for tracking | 14:03 |
| annegentle | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-docs-juno | 14:03 |
| annegentle | that actually leads nicely into the next topic | 14:04 |
| annegentle | #topic Blueprint plans in progress | 14:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprint plans in progress (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:04 | |
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| annegentle | We have two docs-specs done https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/docs-specs,n,z | 14:05 |
| annegentle | Glossary sharing is done, thank you AJaeger | 14:05 |
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| AJaeger | Needs approval from infra team but otherwise done (I hope ;) | 14:05 |
| annegentle | the heat-templates spec is done, thank you Gauvain (who's on vacay) | 14:05 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: ah yes that's right | 14:05 |
| annegentle | then there are two others I want specs for | 14:05 |
| sld | which are? ;) | 14:05 |
| annegentle | one is my responsibility, and I'm working with fifieldt, on redesign | 14:06 |
| annegentle | sld: can't type any faster :) | 14:06 |
| AJaeger | to see all specs, go to specs.openstack.org | 14:06 |
| sld | lol | 14:06 |
| annegentle | It's related to an older blueprint | 14:06 |
| annegentle | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-ci/+spec/ci-doc-automation | 14:06 |
| annegentle | look at that 2011 date :) | 14:06 |
| annegentle | specifically, this part: | 14:07 |
| annegentle | Use git review to edit docs on web: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ci/+bug/1003153 - Offer a way for readers to edit a page in a lightweight web-based editor, then use git-review in the background to submit a review to Gerrit. | 14:07 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1003153 in openstack-ci "Edit a doc page in a lightweight web-based editor" [Wishlist,Triaged] | 14:07 |
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| sld | Awesome idea! | 14:07 |
| annegentle | I will have a spec, I promise :) | 14:07 |
| annegentle | and it may or may not require redesign | 14:07 |
| AJaeger | annegentle, add yourself an #actionitem ;) | 14:07 |
| sld | lol ajaeger | 14:08 |
| annegentle | but it'd be great to get a page-based method out there | 14:08 |
| annegentle | :) | 14:08 |
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| annegentle | #action annegentle to write spec for docs site redesign/experience design | 14:08 |
| annegentle | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+spec/redesign-docs-site | 14:08 |
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| annegentle | Then there's the Networking work, I really want a spec for that since there's a lot of activity and coordination needed | 14:09 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: I think we'll have Shaun do it since you and Phil are busy | 14:09 |
| annegentle | it being the spec | 14:09 |
| Sam-I-Am | sure | 14:09 |
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| annegentle | and that's it for blueprints we're targeting that need specs | 14:10 |
| Sam-I-Am | just need to move the toc wiki to it | 14:10 |
| sld | put that toc wiki link here for reference? | 14:10 |
| annegentle | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+spec/add-ceilometer-admin-guide-to-openstack-manuals | 14:10 |
| annegentle | this one is fine without a spec, the ceilometer guide (though with all the mailing list discussion I wonder if a spec would've helped?) | 14:10 |
| NickChase | sld: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/NetworkingGuide/TOC | 14:11 |
| sld | thx | 14:11 |
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| Sam-I-Am | yeah, he got to it first | 14:11 |
| annegentle | any other blueprints/specs to talk about? | 14:11 |
| Sam-I-Am | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/NetworkingGuide/TOC | 14:11 |
| annegentle | eglynn: do you want to talk about the ceilometer work? | 14:11 |
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| eglynn | annegentle: sure | 14:11 |
| annegentle | go ahead | 14:12 |
| eglynn | annegentle: in the context of the ML thread? | 14:12 |
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| annegentle | eglynn: whatever you want to talk about, really | 14:12 |
| eglynn | OK, so my goal there was to minimize the learning curve required for non-doc-team members to contribute documentation content | 14:12 |
| eglynn | as we have a TC-mandated action to beef up the admin guide for ceilometer | 14:13 |
| eglynn | so the gist of the discussion for those who missed it was ... | 14:13 |
| eglynn | (a) there is a new light-weight RST-based contribution model being trailblazed for the heat HOT guide | 14:14 |
| eglynn | (b) that model would not be applicable to the ceilometer case as we're contrib'ing content as a new chapter to the admin guide | 14:15 |
| eglynn | (c) we'll micro-streamline by clarifying exactly when in the workflow the doc polish should be applied | 14:15 |
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| annegentle | yep that's a good summary | 14:15 |
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| eglynn | on the latter point, that "exactly when" moment is when the porject-team contributor removes the WIP -1 flag on the patch | 14:16 |
| NickChase | would it perhaps make sense... | 14:16 |
| eglynn | we'll aim to be proactive about doing that and give you folks a heads-up | 14:16 |
| annegentle | right, a signal I messed up :( | 14:16 |
| eglynn | NickChase: /me is all ears | 14:16 |
| NickChase | to treat the ceilometer chapter as a separate rst-based "book" that can then be included in the admin guide, since it's self-contained? | 14:16 |
| eglynn | annegentle: np! we're weren't 100% clear on the workflow either | 14:16 |
| annegentle | NickChase: we toyed with that idea too | 14:17 |
| annegentle | NickChase: generally I think RST makes sense for the user guide/ hot templates since it's what we ended up designing and discussing | 14:17 |
| annegentle | the ceilometer request came in later | 14:17 |
| annegentle | not that timing is everything at all | 14:17 |
| annegentle | and I'm interested in easing contributions | 14:18 |
| annegentle | just not sure it's good to experiment with both the user guide and admin guide | 14:18 |
| annegentle | but maybe I'm splitting hairs, it's okay, you can tell me :) | 14:18 |
| NickChase | well, the HA guide has been using RST for some time | 14:18 |
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| NickChase | so not sure how much of an "experiment" it would be, unless I'm missing somethiong | 14:18 |
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| annegentle | NickChase: no it started as asciidoc and is now docbook | 14:18 |
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| annegentle | NickChase: but that's a whole book, also, not an inserted chapter | 14:19 |
| annegentle | NickChase: but I like how we're thinking about this, just trying to contain the experiment I guess? | 14:19 |
| NickChase | I can understand containment. and I missed the fact that it's now docbook. :) | 14:20 |
| annegentle | :) | 14:20 |
| sld | ... have a suitable standalone guide/book for all projects, that all are also possible to be put together.. and have the stand alone viewable at <projectname>.docs.openstack.org -- easier to find. ;) | 14:20 |
| NickChase | but the chapter vs book thing I though is not an issue. | 14:20 |
| eglynn | annegentle, NickChase: so I would be happy to be part of an extended experiment, but will hew to the domain experts' judgement on this | 14:21 |
| NickChase | that said, where DO we stand on what the ceilometer content is being produced as? | 14:21 |
| annegentle | NickChase: I really want to move to a page model, less book | 14:21 |
| annegentle | NickChase: but it's early | 14:21 |
| annegentle | NickChase: it's docbook patches now | 14:21 |
| NickChase | k | 14:21 |
| annegentle | NickChase: mostly set to WIP | 14:21 |
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| annegentle | thanks for all the good discussion eglynn much appreciated | 14:21 |
| annegentle | should probably move on to next topic | 14:22 |
| eglynn | NickChase: yep, we've some WIP docbook-based patches up, as we learned the ropes around the workflow | 14:22 |
| annegentle | #toipc Networking Guide and swarms | 14:22 |
| AJaeger | eglynn, Ildiko (sp?) is doing great work! | 14:22 |
| annegentle | #link Networking Guide and swarms | 14:22 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: ++ | 14:22 |
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| annegentle | er I can't operate a meetbot this morning | 14:22 |
| annegentle | #topic Networking Guide and swarms | 14:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Networking Guide and swarms (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:22 | |
| annegentle | #link http://openstack-swarm.rhcloud.com/ | 14:22 |
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| annegentle | That one is in Brisbane, Aug. 9 (This Saturday!) | 14:23 |
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| Sam-I-Am | which is a friday night for US folks... | 14:23 |
| annegentle | Ayup they are the futurists | 14:23 |
| annegentle | #link http://www.meetup.com/Australian-OpenStack-User-Group/events/198867972/ | 14:24 |
| annegentle | Then shortly after in the US, after the Ops Meetup, we'll meet for a day in San Antonio | 14:24 |
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| annegentle | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-docs-juno | 14:24 |
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| annegentle | #link http://www.eventbrite.com/e/openstack-ops-mid-cycle-meetup-tickets-12149171499 | 14:25 |
| sld | that thing for 2 days? | 14:25 |
| annegentle | The dates are 8/25-8/26 for the Ops meetup, then we're meeting in a bunker for docs work on 8/27. | 14:25 |
| sld | sounds awesome | 14:25 |
| AJaeger | sounds dark | 14:25 |
| annegentle | sld: hopefully it'll fit your schedule! | 14:25 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: hehe | 14:26 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: actually it's pretty light, in a renovated shopping mall | 14:26 |
| annegentle | but the cloud was developed in the basement, with no hint of irony whatsoever :) | 14:26 |
| sld | annegentle: for the 27th - when/where is that at? | 14:26 |
| AJaeger | bunker reminds me of cold, wet and dark - thinking world war II... | 14:26 |
| Sam-I-Am | AJaeger: not far from the truth | 14:26 |
| sld | lol | 14:26 |
| annegentle | sld: SAT6-2325-Presidential Suite conference room | 14:26 |
| annegentle | #info Docs swarm this Saturday in Brisbane | 14:27 |
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| annegentle | #info Neutron doc day after Ops Meetup in San Antonio 8/27, SAT6-2325-Presidential Suite conference room | 14:27 |
| sld | time? | 14:27 |
| annegentle | sld: 9:00 am start | 14:27 |
| sld | k. | 14:27 |
| annegentle | sld: phil_h might have more details if he's an early bird though! | 14:27 |
| annegentle | sld: hopefully we can overlap some | 14:28 |
| sld | yeah, he gets in a little after 6, usually | 14:28 |
| sld | i hope :) | 14:28 |
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| annegentle | #topic Website design and contributor experience work in progress | 14:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Website design and contributor experience work in progress (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:28 | |
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| annegentle | so I have a meeting scheduled next week with HP to try to get that Gerrit web UI going | 14:28 |
| annegentle | I'll get a spec done once I know more | 14:28 |
| annegentle | I'm kind of excited | 14:29 |
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| annegentle | #topic HOT Template Guide in progress; Gauvain on vacation | 14:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "HOT Template Guide in progress; Gauvain on vacation (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:29 | |
| annegentle | That's just a general FYI | 14:29 |
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| annegentle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/111565/ | 14:30 |
| annegentle | that's the Work In Progress patch for the curious | 14:30 |
| annegentle | #topic Architecture and Design Guide proof print on the way; meeting with wider content team | 14:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Architecture and Design Guide proof print on the way; meeting with wider content team (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:30 | |
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| annegentle | I've got a review in progress for the landing page to make it similar to the Ops Guide and Security Guide | 14:31 |
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| annegentle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/112070/ | 14:31 |
| annegentle | I'm working with the Foundation on a promotion plan | 14:31 |
| annegentle | You all probably know already there's a Content Team for the Foundation itself, separate from docs, but Docs PTL is involved | 14:32 |
| annegentle | since there's a push for enterprise content we'll discuss how to promote and get more contributions | 14:32 |
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| annegentle | Ah berendt just saw your request for arch | 14:32 |
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| annegentle | I think it's ok, arc has to stay since I stored the epub there (though we can always redirect) | 14:33 |
| annegentle | easy to fix though | 14:33 |
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| annegentle | related to the landing, is berendt's patch for a templatized set of html flat files | 14:33 |
| annegentle | and sld looking to consolidate js | 14:33 |
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| annegentle | Static site generator for your perusal: | 14:34 |
| annegentle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/112239/ | 14:34 |
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| annegentle | I'll review later today ok berendt? | 14:34 |
| annegentle | Like how we're thinking more about this and the page-based thinking, thanks all | 14:34 |
| berendt | we should first choose a site generator. there are a lot of them (listed at https://www.staticgen.com/). | 14:35 |
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| annegentle | berendt: for sure | 14:35 |
| berendt | should be discussed inside the review request or on the mailing list. | 14:35 |
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| annegentle | berendt: sure. I had thought of Jekyll or Middleman based on conversations in the last year or so | 14:35 |
| annegentle | berendt: and it may tie into the site design and gerrit / contributor design | 14:36 |
| annegentle | berendt: so we might not decide right away | 14:36 |
| annegentle | berendt: though man, do we need it! | 14:36 |
| berendt | that's ok | 14:36 |
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| annegentle | berendt: that's a very useful site | 14:36 |
| annegentle | once I have the proof print (hopefully this week!) we can do the promo work on the Arch Guide | 14:37 |
| annegentle | It's really pretty :) | 14:37 |
| annegentle | that green cover just pops | 14:37 |
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| annegentle | I also like to start thinking we'll have a book path and a page path for our content | 14:37 |
| annegentle | choose certain paths for certain content | 14:37 |
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| annegentle | Ok, definitely hope there are people around who want to talk about the next topic | 14:38 |
| annegentle | #topic API docs: replacing WADL links in dev refs | 14:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "API docs: replacing WADL links in dev refs (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:38 | |
| annegentle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/111436/ | 14:38 |
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| NickChase | I'll talk about anything. :) | 14:38 |
| annegentle | NickChase: nice, always good to have opinionated people around! | 14:38 |
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| NickChase | :) | 14:38 |
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| sld | I may not say much, but I'm still here too. ;-) | 14:38 |
| annegentle | I've gathered data over the last year or so about API docs and contributions, and WADL is a really tough sell. | 14:39 |
| annegentle | :) | 14:39 |
| annegentle | If you look at the contribution stats, Diane was the main contributor | 14:39 |
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| Sam-I-Am | wadl is horribad | 14:39 |
| annegentle | she's still contributing because she's AWESOME but it's not her full-time job any more, she's at ebay | 14:39 |
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| annegentle | wadl fills a specific need | 14:39 |
| annegentle | but, I think that need is best met with the API reference and not embedded in books | 14:39 |
| annegentle | especially when those books don't include parameter output | 14:40 |
| annegentle | so my proposal is to remove WADL from the def refs and keep it only for the API Complete Reference | 14:40 |
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| annegentle | any one have concerns? | 14:40 |
| annegentle | only cheering? | 14:40 |
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| sld | lol | 14:40 |
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| AJaeger | annegentle, I think all of us try to avoid WADL ;( So, any removal is great ;) | 14:40 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: :) | 14:41 |
| sld | exactly | 14:41 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: I know it has its place to describe APIs, but there are alternatives we need to investigate | 14:41 |
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| annegentle | Swagger, RAML, etc | 14:41 |
| annegentle | esp. if no one plans to assign a full time person just to WADL maintenance | 14:41 |
| NickChase | really, I think we are going to have trouble with anything that requires someone to learn a new format | 14:42 |
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| NickChase | I wish there was some way to just automatically extract from the code......... | 14:42 |
| annegentle | NickChase: yeah but they all are a new format for describing REST API (WADL is actually the oldest) | 14:42 |
| annegentle | NickChase: but then we don't know if the code is right | 14:42 |
| annegentle | NickChase: so that's dangerous | 14:42 |
| annegentle | NickChase: we need to serve users | 14:42 |
| NickChase | hang on: if we're documenting the code, the code is ALWAYS right -- even when it's wrong. | 14:43 |
| annegentle | NickChase: ha. Unless the code is wrong and we break tens of thousands of clients | 14:43 |
| AJaeger | world domination? ;) | 14:43 |
| annegentle | Ok last topic | 14:43 |
| annegentle | ha AJaeger :) | 14:43 |
| annegentle | #topic Changing review team for clouddocs-maven-plugin | 14:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Changing review team for clouddocs-maven-plugin (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:43 | |
| annegentle | AJaeger has a good idea here | 14:43 |
| annegentle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106923/ | 14:44 |
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| sld | when is that going to go through? | 14:44 |
| AJaeger | sld: Never ;) | 14:44 |
| sld | lol | 14:44 |
| annegentle | Basically making the docs-core team have +2 on clouddocs-maven-plugin | 14:44 |
| sld | that would be cool | 14:44 |
| annegentle | so that there's not just one person with +2 | 14:44 |
| sld | exactly | 14:44 |
| sld | i like the logic behind it... it just makes sense. | 14:44 |
| annegentle | yeah me too | 14:44 |
| AJaeger | so, adding the docs-core team as group to clouddocs-maven-plugin - so keep Sam in and add us | 14:44 |
| AJaeger | This only needs a change to the ACL, no patch | 14:45 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: yep. And there may be one other Racker, Thu Doan, we can add to the clouddocs-maven-plugin | 14:45 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: ok so do I abandon https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106923/? | 14:45 |
| AJaeger | Sure, I love to see more experts! | 14:45 |
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| * annegentle is not sure of exact next steps | 14:45 | |
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| AJaeger | annegentle, just ask Sam or the infra team to add us to the ACL | 14:45 |
| annegentle | Okay good it, is that a patch I can do? | 14:45 |
| annegentle | I've told Sam about the idea | 14:46 |
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| AJaeger | annegentle, the same way you add cores to docs-core... | 14:46 |
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| AJaeger | Ask the infra team | 14:46 |
| annegentle | ah got it, in gerrit | 14:46 |
| AJaeger | yep - I guess Sam has the permissions to do it | 14:46 |
| annegentle | #action Anne to ask Sam Harwell to add docs-core to the clouddocs-maven-plugin review team | 14:46 |
| annegentle | ok, that's all I got! | 14:47 |
| annegentle | #topic Open discussion | 14:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:47 | |
| AJaeger | please help with bug triage and bug fixing! | 14:47 |
| AJaeger | should we have another bug squashing day? | 14:47 |
| Sam-I-Am | heh | 14:47 |
| berendt | +1 | 14:47 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: oh yes I like the idea | 14:47 |
| phil_h | yes | 14:47 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: September? | 14:47 |
| AJaeger | August is vacation month, so September... | 14:48 |
| NickChase | I'm for september when we know what bugs are in for install | 14:48 |
| sld | what is code freeze date? | 14:48 |
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| sld | that is in september. | 14:48 |
| Sam-I-Am | hopefully we'll have some juno packages by then | 14:48 |
| phil_h | am on vacation week of Sept 15th | 14:48 |
| Sam-I-Am | hopefully we wont see a lot of changes for the 'core' services in juno | 14:49 |
| phil_h | rc-1 comes out early Sept | 14:49 |
| annegentle | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Juno_Release_Schedule | 14:49 |
| phil_h | DVR in Juno Neutron concerns me | 14:49 |
| Sam-I-Am | for icehouse we saw packages at milestone 2 | 14:49 |
| annegentle | Sept 4 string freeze | 14:49 |
| sld | rc1 - september 25th | 14:49 |
| sld | yep | 14:49 |
| phil_h | Install from source!!!! | 14:49 |
| annegentle | yep what sld said | 14:49 |
| sld | was just looking at that page too. lol | 14:49 |
| Sam-I-Am | phil_h: no thanks | 14:49 |
| sld | phil_h: I'm SO there! :) | 14:50 |
| annegentle | phil_h: ahh | 14:50 |
| Sam-I-Am | phil_h: your experience seems too painful to put into the install guide | 14:50 |
| annegentle | phil_h: yeah the TC is also concerned about DVR | 14:50 |
| NickChase | ok I feel stupid but what's dvr? | 14:50 |
| phil_h | soinstalling from source is not difficult and I am working on documenting on how to do it | 14:50 |
| sld | what is dvr? | 14:50 |
| sld | aside from digital video recorder, that is. | 14:50 |
| phil_h | distribute virtualo router | 14:50 |
| phil_h | makes Neutron L3 ha | 14:51 |
| sld | an ha-ish router? | 14:51 |
| NickChase | ahhhhhh ok. | 14:51 |
| sld | that would be cool | 14:51 |
| phil_h | critical for neutron to meet nova network parity | 14:51 |
| Sam-I-Am | think of it kind of like vmware's dist virtual switch of sorts | 14:51 |
| NickChase | you're concerned about how to document it, or whether it works? | 14:51 |
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| annegentle | sld: distributed virtual router, I had to ask in the TC meeting :) | 14:51 |
| sld | heh | 14:52 |
| phil_h | if neuton does not achieve nova network parity is goes back to incubated | 14:52 |
| annegentle | NickChase: upgrade, migrations, http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-29-20.02.log.html | 14:52 |
| annegentle | phil_h: I believe so | 14:52 |
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| annegentle | September 4th week would be good for bug squash day | 14:53 |
| annegentle | Maybe Sept 5th? | 14:53 |
| phil_h | kmesterly the Neutron PTL told us that on a conf call a few weeks back | 14:53 |
| annegentle | it's a Friday so we'd lose Aussies | 14:53 |
| annegentle | phil_h: yeah I haven't started thinking about doc ramifications yet... | 14:53 |
| annegentle | I mean, I'm thinking about them, of course. | 14:53 |
| NickChase | phil_h: have you tried it yet? | 14:54 |
| sld | phil_h: if that happens, what will happen with networking? neutron just goes away and we are left with nova-network again? | 14:54 |
| phil_h | The DVR code has merged into trunk so I beleive it will be ok | 14:54 |
| sld | ah | 14:54 |
| sld | ok | 14:54 |
| phil_h | There are a few bugs with DVR but it is coming along | 14:54 |
| sld | annegentle: that thursday then? | 14:54 |
| annegentle | sld: or we could do the Tues. after Sept 4th? | 14:54 |
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| annegentle | 9/9 seems like a good day to squash bugs! | 14:55 |
| NickChase | so we need to document DVR; I believe we are on our way to doing that. I am supposed to get a few candidates for HA work today or tomorrow | 14:55 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: any thoughts on which weekday? | 14:55 |
| phil_h | I can't do 9/2-3 | 14:55 |
| AJaeger | annegentle, all are bad - Just throw a dice :) | 14:55 |
| annegentle | NickChase: yeah my sense is that the networking doc plans are considering that | 14:55 |
| annegentle | but still, priorities priorities | 14:55 |
| annegentle | we'll need a networking guide no matter the neutron outcome | 14:55 |
| annegentle | phil_h: ok good to know. I'd prefer to avoid 9/4 and 9/5 due to the gate possibly being slow | 14:56 |
| phil_h | They need us to doc DVR to reach parity | 14:56 |
| annegentle | we need a day for a fast gate | 14:56 |
| annegentle | phil_h: ok good to know | 14:56 |
| phil_h | 9/1? or the next week? | 14:56 |
| NickChase | phil_h: we can make that happen | 14:56 |
| berendt | 9/1 | 14:56 |
| NickChase | phil_h: especially if you can brain dump | 14:56 |
| phil_h | Will try but right now I don't know much | 14:57 |
| NickChase | phil_h: heck, in a worst case scenario, if you can brain dump I can write it | 14:57 |
| annegentle | phil_h: I'd rather do bug triaging after a freeze | 14:57 |
| NickChase | we have a couple of weeks before we need to panic | 14:57 |
| annegentle | I liking 9/9 | 14:57 |
| phil_h | I will be installing from source in the next couple of weeks and then I will know more | 14:57 |
| NickChase | k | 14:57 |
| Sam-I-Am | do that many bugs relate to juno though? | 14:57 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: do you want to take point on bug squashing? | 14:57 |
| phil_h | 9/9 works for me | 14:57 |
| AJaeger | I'll try to | 14:58 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: I've been triaging API docs and for those, not too much. | 14:58 |
| AJaeger | 9th should be fine | 14:58 |
| Sam-I-Am | seems like a lot of our bugs have been around a while | 14:58 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: for openstack-manuals bugs, I don't know if docimpact backlog is that huge | 14:58 |
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| sld | 9/9 is a tuesday so that is middle of my work week, so that sucks.. but i will try and hang for a few hours to try and help. | 14:58 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: thank you! I can fill in as needed but want to focus on the design blueprint | 14:58 |
| Sam-I-Am | sld: we need coverage overnight too :) | 14:58 |
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| sld | lol | 14:58 |
| annegentle | sld: ok, sorry, we'll also see what APAC thinks of 9/9 | 14:58 |
| Sam-I-Am | bug day is a 24-hour event | 14:58 |
| annegentle | right Sam-I-Am! :) | 14:59 |
| AJaeger | Wait? What did I just sign up for - annegentle "take point" means what? | 14:59 |
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| AJaeger | Organizing it? | 14:59 |
| sld | LOL AJaeger! | 14:59 |
| sld | sounds like it. hehe | 14:59 |
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| annegentle | AJaeger: Heh. Can you do: write a note to the ML to ask about 9/9 | 14:59 |
| AJaeger | annegentle, yes, I will! | 14:59 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: once the date is decided, I think "point" just means "make sure the graphs work" | 14:59 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: that's all I'd ask of you :) | 14:59 |
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| phil_h | dvr meeting starting on openstack-meeting-alt | 15:00 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: and let's make sure fifieldt can help, he's such a fast/good bugs triager | 15:00 |
| annegentle | okie doke thanks all | 15:00 |
| annegentle | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| AJaeger | ok | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 6 15:00:31 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2014/docteam.2014-08-06-14.00.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2014/docteam.2014-08-06-14.00.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2014/docteam.2014-08-06-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
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| johnthetubaguy | #startmeeting XenAPI | 15:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 6 15:01:52 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is johnthetubaguy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'xenapi' | 15:01 |
| BobBall | o/~ | 15:02 |
| BobBall | hmmm | 15:02 |
| BobBall | That looks better in some fonts than others | 15:02 |
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| BobBall | it's meant to be me waving :/ | 15:02 |
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| johnthetubaguy | lol, hello | 15:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 15:03 |
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| BobBall | yes yes - that's just holding your hand up | 15:03 |
| BobBall | I can do that too | 15:03 |
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| BobBall | also I can do the \o/ <o> (o /o\ | 15:03 |
| BobBall | but that's probably beside the point | 15:04 |
| BobBall | and should be saved for AOB at the end | 15:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | #topic XenServer CI | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "XenServer CI (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:04 | |
| johnthetubaguy | so hows life in the CI world? | 15:04 |
| BobBall | There seems to be a new race / timeout introduced | 15:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | oh goody, xenserver specific one? | 15:04 |
| BobBall | a whole bunch of the boto third party ec2 tests started failing the last few days | 15:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | oh | 15:04 |
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| BobBall | I've not found references to it outside of xenapi - so it could be configuration specific | 15:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | those have been dodgy in the past | 15:05 |
| BobBall | but highly unlikely to be XenAPI specific | 15:05 |
| BobBall | Anyway - they hammered the pass rate | 15:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I guess its possible, but seems unlikely | 15:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | gotcha | 15:05 |
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| BobBall | so over the last few days I've disabled most of them | 15:05 |
| BobBall | should be back to a sensible pass rate now | 15:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | hows the skip list looking these days? | 15:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | tempest test skip list that is | 15:05 |
| BobBall | but the last set I only added today so it'll take a while to show up | 15:06 |
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| BobBall | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/xenapi-os-testing/tree/tempest_exclusion_list | 15:06 |
| BobBall | quite good in comparison to the original list | 15:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | Ok, cools, so its not massive, yeah | 15:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | thats quite a nice small set of tests to try and debug and improve | 15:06 |
| BobBall | volumes stuff and ec2 compatability stuff | 15:06 |
| BobBall | yeah - but the frustration is that I haven't been able to tickle them in the right way outside of the CI yet | 15:07 |
| BobBall | and because everyone expects the third party CIs to be "better than jenkins" (my interpretation) then we can't rely on it | 15:07 |
| BobBall | to qualify the "better than jenkins" expectation; if there is a random failure in a 3rd party CI my understanding is most people ignore the CI rather than think there is a race that needs to be tracked down; as such we have to pass significantly more of the time otherwise the CI would just fall into a permanently ignored state | 15:08 |
| * BobBall doesn't like disabling tests :/ | 15:08 | |
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| johnthetubaguy | well, to be fair, they expect it to be as good as jenkins, and jenkins runs like four tempest tests per run, etc, etc | 15:09 |
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| johnthetubaguy | need easier way to dev these kinds of test improvements I guess | 15:10 |
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| BobBall | That's perhaps a discussion for another time | 15:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 15:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | any more on CI, looking like most things are stable-ish? | 15:10 |
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| johnthetubaguy | #link http://www.rcbops.com/gerrit/reports/nova-cireport.html is looking quite good still | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | not totally awesome, but thats the way it goes | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | #topic Open Discussion | 15:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:11 | |
| johnthetubaguy | so, we got anything else for today? | 15:12 |
| BobBall | I haven't seen the report recently | 15:12 |
| BobBall | ah yes | 15:12 |
| BobBall | quite a few failures - many more than I want | 15:12 |
| BobBall | we got to a failure rate of about 1 in 4 before I added the exclusions | 15:12 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I think that was the state at the last meeting | 15:12 |
| BobBall | I'm pleased that we're still holding our own in terms of 3rd party CIs though | 15:12 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so glad that got stabalised, I am guessing the red bar is still from when that happened | 15:13 |
| BobBall | yup | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, the other are much worse at this point, although that is causing its own issues | 15:13 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I have a bug fix up for some extra clean up with snapshots: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100880 | 15:13 |
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| BobBall | although I worry that those stats aren't being updated again | 15:14 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, there was talk of moving it into infra at somepoint soon | 15:14 |
| BobBall | for XenServer CI both the first and last 'Missed' votes are more than 30 days old | 15:14 |
| BobBall | so I figure the stats are frozen at some point in the past | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | hmm, that does smell bad | 15:14 |
| BobBall | (despite the 'updated' date | 15:14 |
| BobBall | +) | 15:14 |
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| johnthetubaguy | anyways, yeah, that bug fix would be good to get some eyes on it, but other than that, not much to report | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | any more for today? | 15:16 |
| BobBall | nah not from me | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool, non from me | 15:16 |
| BobBall | oh sure - why not | 15:16 |
| BobBall | fix for neutron has gone up | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | lets gain some time back for the rest of the day | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, interesting, it was broken then | 15:16 |
| BobBall | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/112018/ | 15:17 |
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| johnthetubaguy | cools | 15:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | thanks BobBall | 15:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | #endmeeting | 15:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:18 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 6 15:18:30 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:18 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2014/xenapi.2014-08-06-15.01.html | 15:18 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2014/xenapi.2014-08-06-15.01.txt | 15:18 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2014/xenapi.2014-08-06-15.01.log.html | 15:18 |
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| thingee | jgriffith: meeting? | 16:03 |
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| DuncanT- | #startmeeting cinder | 16:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 6 16:05:07 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is DuncanT-. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'cinder' | 16:05 |
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| thingee | o/ | 16:05 |
| glenng | Hi | 16:05 |
| DuncanT- | Hopefully John will be along in a moment.... who else is about? | 16:05 |
| tbarron | hi | 16:05 |
| eharney | hi | 16:05 |
| dustins | \o | 16:05 |
| e0ne | hi | 16:05 |
| xyang1 | hi | 16:05 |
| jkremer | hi | 16:05 |
| jungleboyj | o/ | 16:05 |
| kmartin | o/ | 16:05 |
| Yogi1 | hi | 16:05 |
| ronenkat_ | hi | 16:05 |
| *** ronenkat_ is now known as ronenkat | 16:05 | |
| smcginnis | o/ | 16:05 |
| DuncanT- | #topic Mid cycle meetup | 16:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mid cycle meetup (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:06 | |
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| DuncanT- | Do we have Scott yet? | 16:06 |
| Swanson | hello | 16:06 |
| thingee | scottda: ^ | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | o/ | 16:06 |
| thingee | jgriffith: yay! | 16:06 |
| DuncanT- | Hey John | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | sorry folks | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | traffic | 16:06 |
| DuncanT- | Right, we'll come back to him | 16:07 |
| DuncanT- | #topic Replication | 16:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Replication (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:07 | |
| jgriffith | sweet | 16:07 |
| ronenkat | hi, | 16:07 |
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| jgriffith | has anybody else looked at the two approaches? | 16:08 |
| ronenkat | Following discussions with John, I looked at how you would do replication via drivers, with limited support in Cinder iteself | 16:08 |
| ronenkat | I put a design at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-cinder-volume-replication-apparochs | 16:08 |
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| scottda | Hi all. Sorry I'm late | 16:08 |
| asselin_ | hi | 16:08 |
| thingee | jgriffith: I've have read both | 16:08 |
| thingee | I have * | 16:09 |
| ronenkat | it puts more burden on the driver, creating the volumes, but reduces the burden of the generic Cinder code | 16:09 |
| ronenkat | I have very little db footprint | 16:09 |
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| ronenkat | I think it is less flexiable and harder on the driver, but can be a good start | 16:09 |
| jgriffith | ronenkat: I'd rather put the burden there for a start at least :) | 16:10 |
| DuncanT- | I like the simple approach first, though I wonder if people who know more about replication can see anything missing? | 16:10 |
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| DuncanT- | Being harder on the driver is fine I think, drivers might chose to share some code where that makes sense | 16:10 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: full disclosure there are missing pieces | 16:10 |
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| jgriffith | I fully admit | 16:10 |
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| jgriffith | and ronenkat has pointed some of them out | 16:10 |
| jgriffith | fail over, disabling etc | 16:11 |
| kmartin | agree with the simply approach for us anyways | 16:11 |
| eharney | i'm mostly trying to sort out whether this leaves the driver doing things it shouldn't really be responsible for... seems like it could be reasonable | 16:11 |
| jgriffith | eharney: expand? | 16:11 |
| thingee | jgriffith: I think that's what we wanted anyways. a simple first pass to build off of | 16:11 |
| thingee | espescially this late | 16:11 |
| jgriffith | eharney: ie "what should a driver NOT be doing" | 16:11 |
| ronenkat | the major point I am concerned with is that a driver may need to talk with another backend | 16:11 |
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| eharney | jgriffith: i'm just trying to make sure this doesn't bring manager/service type behavior too far down into the driver itself... so far i think it doesn't but i'm still sorting that out | 16:12 |
| thingee | not that this late is ronenkat's fault. there have been slow responses back and it's a difficult problem. | 16:12 |
| jgriffith | ronenkat: I actually thought who better to talk to a SolidFire backend than a SoidFire driver :) | 16:12 |
| jgriffith | eharney: ahh... got ya | 16:12 |
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| hemna | morning | 16:12 |
| * jgriffith has been the blocker on this for sure | 16:12 | |
| ronenkat | but I think that the scheduler-aware pools is actually a good concept that address talk to multi backends | 16:13 |
| jgriffith | eharney: fair point... my position would be as soon as you do dissimilar backends it needs to move | 16:13 |
| jgriffith | ronenkat: hmm... ya know that's a really good point | 16:14 |
| eharney | jgriffith: that sounds about right to me | 16:14 |
| jgriffith | model it off of the pools design? | 16:14 |
| jgriffith | ronenkat: that's interesting.... | 16:14 |
| ronenkat | jgriffit: I really liked how the driver based apparoch works with the pool-aware scheduler | 16:14 |
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| jgriffith | Ok.. so maybe we should tackle that | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | ronenkat: are you available next week? | 16:15 |
| ronenkat | availables yes, but remotly | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | that's almost as good :) | 16:15 |
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| ronenkat | jgriffit: I plan to get the code up by Monday, so we can review it next week | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | maybe we can work this out as a team next week? | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | thingee: DuncanT- hemna kmartin ^^ ? | 16:15 |
| thingee | sure | 16:16 |
| hemna | the pool scheduler or replication ? | 16:16 |
| kmartin | +1 | 16:16 |
| hemna | or both :P | 16:16 |
| kmartin | both I hope | 16:16 |
| jungleboyj | +1 | 16:16 |
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| ronenkat | jgriffit: I think that the code you put up for driver support, would work nicely with what I put up on the etherpad | 16:17 |
| DuncanT- | Makes sense to beat on it in person, given the timing | 16:17 |
| jgriffith | hemna: combo | 16:18 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah, definitely seems like something to talk through in person. | 16:18 |
| thingee | DuncanT-: seems like no disagreements?! moving on? | 16:18 |
| hemna | yah | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | ronenkat: yeah... reading | 16:18 |
| DuncanT- | #topic mid cycle meetup | 16:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mid cycle meetup (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:19 | |
| hemna | I had some feedback for winston-d_ on the pool scheduler that I think closes some holes with it. | 16:19 |
| thingee | scottda: ^ | 16:19 |
| DuncanT- | scottda: You're up | 16:19 |
| scottda | I've not much to say. The etherpad is up to date https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/CinderMidCycleMeetupAug2014 | 16:19 |
| * thingee stops being a backseat driver to DuncanT- | 16:19 | |
| winston-d_ | ronenkat: mind post the url for etherpad if it's not this one: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-cinder-volume-replication-apparochs | 16:19 |
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| scottda | I just want to make sure there's nothing else that needs to be done from my end re: the physical meetup | 16:19 |
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| hemna | What time is it starting Tuesday? | 16:20 |
| scottda | I've done nothing for the Virtual meetup details. | 16:20 |
| DuncanT- | ~17 of us, nice | 16:20 |
| rushiagr | hi all! | 16:20 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: will go through your concerns about pool-aware scheduler after meeting | 16:20 |
| ronenkat | winston-d_: that is the link | 16:20 |
| hemna | winston-d_, sweet | 16:20 |
| kmartin | scottda: thanks for helping put this together | 16:20 |
| scottda | no problem | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | yeah scottda thanks a ton | 16:20 |
| scottda | Thanks go to our admin Pam. You'll be able to thank her in person. | 16:20 |
| jungleboyj | hemna: I was wondering that too. | 16:20 |
| hemna | 9am? | 16:21 |
| jungleboyj | scottda: You guys have admins!?! | 16:21 |
| scottda | start whenever. I've arranged coffee/snacks in the meeting room. | 16:21 |
| kmartin | scottda: I think we can do a google hangout on the fly | 16:21 |
| hemna | scottda, great thanks | 16:21 |
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| scottda | HP employees can maybe help escort non-hp from the front Security to the meeting room. | 16:22 |
| hemna | yah will do. | 16:22 |
| kmartin | scottda: sure | 16:22 |
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| scottda | I'll be onsite early and my phone # is on the etherpad | 16:22 |
| * jgriffith needs to call his old coworkers at HP FC | 16:22 | |
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| thingee | winston-d_, DuncanT-: since we have time, could talk about the pool aware scheduler? | 16:23 |
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| DuncanT- | 'escort' http://www.hooverae.com/upload/files/050108/7825617.jpeg | 16:23 |
| jungleboyj | hemna: Should we call it 9 am with no other suggestions? | 16:23 |
| jungleboyj | DuncanT-: Nice. | 16:23 |
| DuncanT- | Let's call it 9am... | 16:23 |
| hemna | yah that's what I was thinking | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | +1 for 9 | 16:23 |
| hemna | 9am sounds reasonable | 16:23 |
| bswartz | scottda: you're providing the catering right? | 16:24 |
| scottda | sure | 16:24 |
| bswartz | lol | 16:24 |
| scottda | We've breakfast every day and lunch Tues... | 16:24 |
| DuncanT- | And coffee | 16:24 |
| scottda | I could have lunch brought in the other days, but thought people might want to escape the room. | 16:24 |
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| hemna | :) | 16:24 |
| scottda | And I'll work out some beers somewhere Tues night. | 16:24 |
| winston-d_ | oh, I wish I could be there, for food's sake. :) | 16:24 |
| * thingee should make some hipster coffee for folks | 16:24 | |
| hemna | for beer's sake! | 16:24 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: ha! | 16:25 |
| DuncanT- | 'hipster coffee'.... I'm intreageud | 16:25 |
| DuncanT- | Anyway.... | 16:25 |
| DuncanT- | #topic pool scheduler | 16:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "pool scheduler (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:25 | |
| winston-d_ | thingee: sure, I can talk about pool-aware scheduler | 16:25 |
| hemna | hopefully it doesn't have a beard. | 16:25 |
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| DuncanT- | winston-d_: You're up | 16:25 |
| jungleboyj | hemna: Ew. | 16:26 |
| winston-d_ | thingee: since you bring this up, what is in your mind you want to talk about pool-aware scheduler? | 16:26 |
| bswartz | winston-d_: merge it! | 16:27 |
| hemna | heh | 16:27 |
| winston-d_ | or anyone else have specific question/concern? | 16:27 |
| winston-d_ | bswartz: +2, done! | 16:27 |
| hemna | so one of the issues I have with it now is that it doesn't seem to handle the case where folks put a pool in a volume type. | 16:27 |
| thingee | winston-d_: I don't have anything specific. You said talk about it after the meeting. figured now would be fine | 16:27 |
| winston-d_ | bswartz: you can show your support by +1, though. | 16:27 |
| kmartin | thingee: I think it's getting good reviews and markstur posted a WIP patch with the 3PAR driver | 16:27 |
| hemna | our drivers will have a cinder.conf that lists the pools we want to support, but that doesn't prevent someone from putting another pool into a volume type. | 16:28 |
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| thingee | I honestly haven't reviewed the code since I've been focusing on data/control path in driver for jgriffith and the replication changes. Pool scheduler is next on my list | 16:28 |
| hemna | we want to be able to report on all the pools for stats. | 16:28 |
| DuncanT- | hemna: Your driver can (and should) just refuse the create | 16:28 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: actually, I didn't quite get the part you mentioned, rushiagr said the same. | 16:28 |
| hemna | I think the drivers need to have another param passed in to get_volume_stats | 16:28 |
| hemna | we use volume types extensively today for pools | 16:29 |
| hemna | and we don't require admins to put all of those pools into cinder.conf | 16:29 |
| hemna | so there could be pools that only exist in volume types | 16:29 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: yeah, like DuncanT- said, if someone accidentally put something wrong into vol types, you driver can just refuse to create | 16:29 |
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| hemna | so we need to have the volume types passed in to get_Volume_Stats, so we can report on any pools that are specified there | 16:29 |
| hemna | they didn't put anything wrong into the type | 16:30 |
| hemna | they put a pool into the type, because they want to ensure that when the volume is created it goes to that specific pool | 16:30 |
| hemna | we do this today. | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | hemna: you'll need to change your driver :) | 16:30 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: types are dynamic | 16:30 |
| rushiagr | hemna: are there any other drivers which do it the way you do it? | 16:30 |
| DuncanT- | Supporting legacy, HP only type based pools is not currently in the design | 16:30 |
| hemna | because that pool has certain characteristics that they operators charge customers for. | 16:30 |
| hemna | winston-d_, yes, they are dynamic. that's the point of them. :) And it's also why we use types to specify pools | 16:31 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: how about you report all pools the driver (admin) would like to support and let scheduler decide which ones are good? | 16:31 |
| rushiagr | hemna: I 'sort of' understood what your driver is doing, but couldn't understand how it will be affected if that param is not specified in the get_vol_stats | 16:31 |
| hemna | the scheduler needs to be aware of what's in the type | 16:31 |
| hemna | or we'll get a request to create a volume on what the scheduler thinks as well as a pool listed in the type, which would be different. | 16:32 |
| markstur | scheduler shouldn't pick a "type pool" for the wrong type or a "non-type pool" for a type | 16:32 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: scheduler is, it has a capabilities filter to take care extra specs in vol types | 16:32 |
| hemna | the host entry at that point would be what the scheduler chose, not what the user chose from the type. | 16:32 |
| hemna | ok, so how do we report the pool if it only exists in the type? | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | hemna: just use scoped keys to differentiate | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | hemna: then you can support both | 16:32 |
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| hemna | admins can create types after cinder is up, which would mean that certain pools only live in the type | 16:33 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: what do you mean by pool that only exists in the type? | 16:33 |
| hemna | the driver won't report on pools in types, because it doesn't have access to the types at get_volume_stats time | 16:33 |
| DuncanT- | So you can have a working pool that your driver doesn't know anything at all about? That's nuts! | 16:33 |
| hemna | winston-d_, 1) admin configures cinder.conf for Pools A-C 2) at a later date creates a type with Pool D | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | hemna: I'm having a hard time understanding what you're getting at.... | 16:34 |
| hemna | DuncanT-, it does and it doesn't. | 16:34 |
| markstur | driver knows about it, scheduler doesn't know how to associate pools with types (or not) | 16:34 |
| markstur | scheduler says create volume in pool1 w/ type2, type2 says use "premier" pool only. | 16:34 |
| hemna | the driver only knows about it by the pool only existing in the type. | 16:34 |
| hemna | it's not in cinder.conf | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | bottom line is I can't imagine you can't *fix* it, and holding up everything for the 3par driver doesn't seem *good* | 16:35 |
| hemna | This just seems like a hole in the scheduler for us. | 16:35 |
| DuncanT- | hemna: Pools don't have to all be listed in cinder.conf.... the driver can just report them | 16:35 |
| hemna | as 1) we won't be able to report stats correctly unless we get the list of volume types at get_volume_stats time. | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | hemna: that's a bug | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | hemna: I don't understand why you'd rely on an arbitrary thing like types for stats reporting? | 16:36 |
| DuncanT- | hemna: That's an insane design | 16:36 |
| hemna | *sigh* | 16:36 |
| hemna | it's not. | 16:36 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: this approach is broken if there were other types using similar extra specs for their backend | 16:36 |
| hemna | we aren't going to report every single pool on the 3PAR | 16:36 |
| hemna | because we don't want volumes going to every pool on the array. | 16:37 |
| hemna | only certain pools | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | hemna: so let me see if I understand this... | 16:37 |
| hemna | which are defined in cinder.conf | 16:37 |
| hemna | but | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | hemna: currently.. you inspect the volume-type and look for a pool spec in it | 16:37 |
| hemna | admins can add pools to types that aren't in cinder.conf | 16:37 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: say 3par has pool a,b,c, and the driver is able to report pool d if there was a type has extra specs says pool d, right? is this your desgin? | 16:37 |
| hemna | jgriffith, yes | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | hemna: if it's there you report that back in stats???? | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | that makes no sense | 16:37 |
| hemna | jgriffith, currently no, | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | ok... good :) | 16:37 |
| hemna | because we don't have that information at get_volume_stats time | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | so what do you do | 16:37 |
| hemna | but we want to | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | no you don't :) | 16:38 |
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| hemna | lol | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | seriously.. you don't | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | that's bad juju | 16:38 |
| hemna | ? | 16:38 |
| hemna | I don't understand that | 16:38 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: if there is a storwize and netapp in the same cinder deployment, admin create a type trying to associate that type to netapp, with pool d. Would your driver try to find a pool d simply because it looks at all types? | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | You sould report stats based on what you have and leave it to scheduler | 16:39 |
| DuncanT- | hemna: Just report stats on all pools.... admin needs *somewhere* authoritative to know what he's allowed to put in a type | 16:39 |
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| jgriffith | DuncanT-: +1 | 16:39 |
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| hemna | winston-d_, no, we should only get the volume type that has the host associated with our instance. | 16:39 |
| hemna | types | 16:39 |
| hemna | DuncanT-, that authoritative knowledge on what pools he can add were added by himself on the 3PAR. | 16:40 |
| DuncanT- | hemna: That's an erm, weak, design | 16:40 |
| hemna | the admin is the person who created the pools to begin with. | 16:40 |
| hemna | pools don't magically get created on our array. | 16:40 |
| DuncanT- | Just report them all | 16:40 |
| hemna | no | 16:40 |
| jgriffith | I don't understand | 16:40 |
| hemna | we don't want volumes getting created on all pools on the array. | 16:40 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: if admin accidentally put the wrong pool name into 3par related type, in your design, your driver will keep complaining 'couldn't find the target pool to report'? | 16:41 |
| hemna | winston-d_, it's not the wrong type. | 16:41 |
| DuncanT- | The admin created the pools, he knows which ones he does or doesn't want types to be able to access, so what is the problem? | 16:41 |
| hemna | he created a type with a correct pool name | 16:41 |
| hemna | DuncanT-, correct | 16:41 |
| hemna | like I explained earlier | 16:41 |
| hemna | he set Pools A-C in cinder.conf | 16:41 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: i am thinking about corner cases, type with wrong pool name | 16:41 |
| hemna | then later created a type that contains Pool D. | 16:41 |
| DuncanT- | hemna: Report them all and use the type definition to select the one(s) that are desired... that's the point | 16:42 |
| DuncanT- | hemna: No need to selectively report | 16:42 |
| markstur | if conf says pools a,b,c and type says pool d -- even if we report stats for all 4 pools, we still need the scheduler to pick pool d for the type and a|b|c if not the type | 16:42 |
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| hemna | markstur, correct, so the host entry is acurate | 16:42 |
| winston-d_ | markstur: scheduler is already able to do that | 16:42 |
| winston-d_ | markstur: as long as your driver reports pool d | 16:42 |
| markstur | scheduler picks pool a when type says it needs pool d | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | hemna: not sure what the problem is... stats are stats and should be reported | 16:43 |
| hemna | winston-d_, but we don't report pool d, because it only lives in the type. | 16:43 |
| hemna | it's not in cinder.conf | 16:43 |
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| jgriffith | types are unknown at init and periodic reporting intervals | 16:43 |
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| jgriffith | hemna: maybe you should write up and diagram in an etherpad | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | and share with everyone | 16:43 |
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| hemna | ok | 16:43 |
| hemna | there is a big disconnect here | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | since we can't seem to figure out exactly what you're getting at | 16:43 |
| hemna | and it may very well be my own fault. | 16:43 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: that's the issue, i think you should report pool d, regardless what is in cinder.conf. | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | hemna: yeah... communication is hard on IRC sometimes | 16:44 |
| DuncanT- | hemna: It exists on the array, report it. Stop hiding it until there's a type pointing at it. | 16:44 |
| * jgriffith likes white boards | 16:44 | |
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| hemna | winston-d_, so say we report every pool on the array | 16:44 |
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| winston-d_ | jgriffith: +1 | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: I'd have to agree with you there | 16:44 |
| hemna | but our cinder.conf only lists a subset of those. how does the scheduler know not to pick pools outside of our desired list ? | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: or at least have specific "OpenStack" related things you always report | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | no games | 16:45 |
| hemna | we aren't trying to hide anything | 16:45 |
| hemna | *sigh* | 16:45 |
| hemna | it's not about hiding things or games | 16:45 |
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| jgriffith | hemna: then only report those spec'd in cinder.conf | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | and if you don't work, you don't work | 16:45 |
| DuncanT- | hemna: Can this wait until Tuesday and a whiteboard | 16:45 |
| hemna | it about having a selected list of pools we want to use for the driver. we dont' want to use every pool on the array. | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: good idea | 16:46 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: if you want to use cinder.conf to enforce a list of supported pools, fine, don't report pool d, and scheduler won't put any volume to pool d | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | winston-d_: +1 | 16:46 |
| hemna | winston-d_, ok and when pool D is in a volume type ? | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | winston-d_: I'm so confused... I don't see what the issue is here | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | hemna: the scheduler won't send it to your backend if you don't report it in stats | 16:46 |
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| DuncanT- | hemna: having pools magically appear once a type references them is not a sensible design | 16:46 |
| hemna | ok, that's definitely a problem then. | 16:46 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: any volume created with that type will be in 'error' state 'cos 'No Valid Host can be found'. | 16:46 |
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| jgriffith | hemna: then fix it | 16:47 |
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| hemna | ok lets talk about this next week | 16:47 |
| hemna | I'm not getting through. | 16:47 |
| bswartz | perhaps we will get some good examples of how to do pools after the funtionality is implemented in several drivers | 16:47 |
| winston-d_ | hemna: if you want to use pool d, put it into cinder.conf and restart c-vol, done | 16:47 |
| bswartz | and the confusion will go away | 16:47 |
| bswartz | if any real issues remain, we can fix them | 16:47 |
| winston-d_ | bswartz: i'm looking at you | 16:47 |
| hemna | then that completely negates the idea of volume types for us. | 16:48 |
| winston-d_ | bswartz: when will netapp driver be ready for pool scheduler? :) | 16:48 |
| hemna | we've always used volume types to specify the pool. | 16:48 |
| markstur | winston-d: scheduler would still pick 'd' for other types and sometimes pick a|b|c for the type that requires 'd' | 16:48 |
| bswartz | winston-d_: very soon | 16:48 |
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| winston-d_ | hemna: you still do, don't you? | 16:48 |
| hemna | yah | 16:48 |
| markstur | Now if our pool-aware driver uses the type's pool, then it won't match the one the scheduler said to use | 16:49 |
| winston-d_ | markstur: not, scheduler will not, it doesn't know about pool d, simply 'cos your driver deson't report pool d | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | note | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | drivers in Cinder are not a static thing | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | they need maintenance and they change over time | 16:49 |
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| hemna | sure. | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | we've done this in the past for MBE, QoS etc | 16:50 |
| markstur | so scheduler picks 'b' which doesn't apply to the type. how do we get it into the type's pool? | 16:50 |
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| DuncanT- | markstur: A type is not the right place to announce the existance of a pool | 16:50 |
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| DuncanT- | markstu: Taht is the tail wagging the dog | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | let's wrap this up for today | 16:50 |
| winston-d_ | markstur: if the type specifically says, 'i need pool d', scheduler won't put any volume with this type to pool a|b|c. | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | maybe hemna can explain next week and we can help fix it :) | 16:51 |
| markstur | DuncanT-, OK the pool should be in the stats, but the scheduler needs to know which volume types are allowed to use which pools | 16:51 |
| hemna | DuncanT-, that's doesn't work for 3PAR. we use types to specify a pool, because that pool has certain characteristics the admins want to charge for, or the user wants because of their application. | 16:51 |
| winston-d_ | DuncanT-: +1 for type is not the right place to anounce pools. | 16:51 |
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| hemna | ok guys. sorry to suck up the meeting time. | 16:51 |
| hemna | moving on. | 16:51 |
| markstur | someone had to fill in the meeting time | 16:51 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 16:51 |
| DuncanT- | Nothing else on the agenda, or I'd have called time a while ago, don't worry | 16:52 |
| winston-d_ | hemna, markstur: let's take it to cinder channel | 16:52 |
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| hemna | coolio | 16:52 |
| markstur | yep | 16:52 |
| DuncanT- | Any other business? Speak now or forever.... | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | peace | 16:52 |
| DuncanT- | #endmeeting | 16:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:52 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 6 16:52:57 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:52 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2014/cinder.2014-08-06-16.05.html | 16:52 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2014/cinder.2014-08-06-16.05.txt | 16:53 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2014/cinder.2014-08-06-16.05.log.html | 16:53 |
| DuncanT- | Cheers all | 16:53 |
| winston-d_ | thx | 16:53 |
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| jungleboyj | Thanks! | 16:53 |
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| rushiagr | o/ | 16:55 |
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| tjones | hi sorry | 17:01 |
| tjones | im lage | 17:01 |
| tjones | late | 17:01 |
| tjones | #startmeeting vmwareapi | 17:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 6 17:01:29 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is tjones. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: vmwareapi)" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'vmwareapi' | 17:01 |
| tjones | anyone here today? | 17:02 |
| * mdbooth waves | 17:02 | |
| vuil | o/ | 17:02 |
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| arnaud | o/ | 17:02 |
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| tjones | hey guys - so it's all about reviews and bug fixing i think for us. | 17:02 |
| garyk | hi | 17:03 |
| tjones | it looks to me that the only BP we will get in juno are spawn refactor, oslo.vmware, and v3 diags. anyone think anything different? - like spbm and vsan?? | 17:03 |
| mdbooth | tjones: I don't see it happening | 17:04 |
| garyk | tjones: we are working on spbm and ephemeral - all have code posted | 17:04 |
| vuil | vsan bp was approved too I thought, but with all the logjam of patches still needed reviews, yeah. | 17:04 |
| tjones | spbm is set to "good progres" - garyk what do you think? | 17:04 |
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| garyk | tjones: code was completed about 8 months ago. we just need to rebase - i will do that tomorrow | 17:05 |
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| garyk | yesterday we had the oslo.vmware updated so the spbm code can now be used | 17:05 |
| garyk | it is all above tje oslo.vmware integration patch | 17:05 |
| tjones | garyk: im spacing - where is ephemeral one ?? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack?searchtext=vmware (just got back from vacation and still fuzzy) | 17:05 |
| garyk | which may land in 2021 | 17:05 |
| tjones | lol | 17:06 |
| garyk | https://review.openstack.org/109432 | 17:06 |
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| vuil | the few patches using oslo.vmware to provide streamOptimized/vsan support are being updated right now as well. | 17:06 |
| mdbooth | garyk: Incidentally, I spent the afternoon looking at bdm | 17:06 |
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| mdbooth | And I agree with you | 17:06 |
| mdbooth | about ephemeral, that is | 17:07 |
| garyk | ah, that is is only relevant to libvirt? | 17:07 |
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| mdbooth | No, it's definitely relevant to us | 17:07 |
| mdbooth | However, there's no need for it to be in this patch | 17:07 |
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| vuil | *missing context re bdm* | 17:07 |
| mdbooth | block device mapping | 17:07 |
| garyk | ah, ok. then next stuff i'll add in a patch after that | 17:07 |
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| mdbooth | garyk: See my big comment in spawn() about the driver behaviour being broken wrt bdm? | 17:08 |
| mdbooth | I think it needs to be fixed along with that | 17:08 |
| mdbooth | Probably quite an involved patch | 17:08 |
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| garyk | mdbooth: i think that the bdm support is broken in general | 17:08 |
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| * mdbooth would be happy to write it, though | 17:08 | |
| garyk | but that is for another discussion - | 17:08 |
| mdbooth | garyk: +1 :) | 17:09 |
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| tjones | ok so lets go through the BP 1 by 1 (we can revisit bdm later on) | 17:09 |
| tjones | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:bp/vmware-spawn-refactor,n,z | 17:09 |
| vuil | I noted the same in my earlier phase 3 stuff too, so yeah this should be one of the first things to deal with after the refactor | 17:09 |
| tjones | here's spawn | 17:09 |
| garyk | after we chatted there was someone who wrote on irc that he did not manage to get it working in I… | 17:09 |
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| mdbooth | tjones: That's currently blocked on minesweeper | 17:10 |
| tjones | arrggghhhhhh!!! | 17:10 |
| mdbooth | Vui and I chatted just before this meeting about the phase 3 stuff | 17:10 |
| tjones | down again? | 17:10 |
| dansmith | tjones: hasn't it been down for a couple weeks now? or is it just really spotty? | 17:11 |
| mdbooth | garyk had a handle on it, I believe | 17:11 |
| tjones | is phase 3 in that list? im losing track of | 17:11 |
| dansmith | we've been asking about minesweeper status in -nova for at least two weeks | 17:11 |
| garyk | dansmith: no, it has been up. just the last week. just a few problems last 2 days | 17:11 |
| tjones | dansmith: spotty. i literaly got back from vacation just before this meeting. i'll get an update after | 17:11 |
| mdbooth | tjones: Yes. Basically all Vui's patches are phase 3. | 17:11 |
| dansmith | garyk: hmm, okay I've recheck-vmware'd a few things and never get responses | 17:11 |
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| garyk | dansmith: that is due to the fact that the queue is very long due to eh fact it was down for a while | 17:12 |
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| dansmith | okay, I wish we could see the queue so we'd know, but... okay | 17:12 |
| vuil | Matt had some nice suggestions, I will be taking on those and posting an update to the phase 3 chain of patches. | 17:12 |
| garyk | it was averaging about 14 patches a day due to infra issues | 17:12 |
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| mdbooth | +1 | 17:12 |
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| mdbooth | I understand it's on internal infrastructure, though | 17:13 |
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| tjones | ok im assuming oslo.vmware also blocked on minesweeper | 17:13 |
| vuil | and reviews obv | 17:14 |
| garyk | tjones: all of those patches had +1's then we need to rebase and it was at a time when ms was down. so back to sqaure 1. | 17:14 |
| dansmith | tjones: we talked last week about not approving any without them | 17:14 |
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| dansmith | them == votes | 17:14 |
| tjones | yes - i agree we need minesweeper runs | 17:14 |
| dansmith | I've been trying to come back to patches I've -2d regularly to check for minesweeper votes | 17:15 |
| dansmith | I definitely don't want to be the guy that -2s for that and then holds us up after MS shows up :) | 17:15 |
| tjones | :-D | 17:15 |
| garyk | dansmith: it is understaood. rules are rules | 17:15 |
| tjones | ok here's the complete list of our stuff out for review | 17:16 |
| garyk | we just need to et our act together with minesweeper | 17:16 |
| tjones | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+message:vmware,n,z | 17:16 |
| mdbooth | Hmm, I have an actual -1 from dansmith | 17:16 |
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| garyk | but when it is up it would be nice if the patches could get some extra eyes | 17:16 |
| dansmith | mdbooth: frame it! | 17:16 |
| mdbooth | In phase 2 spawn refactor | 17:16 |
| tjones | we still need our team to be reviewing like mad and so when MS comes back we are ready | 17:16 |
| vuil | @dansmith: on related note even when minesweeper passes, we have seen −1 on xenserver CI quite a bit despite rechecks, does that −1 factor into the filtering for reviewable things ? | 17:16 |
| mdbooth | dansmith: I'm honoured :) | 17:16 |
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| dansmith | vuil: not to me | 17:16 |
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| * mdbooth can address that tomorrow | 17:16 | |
| dansmith | vuil: everyone gets -1s from xen ci right now :) | 17:16 |
| garyk | just not that ms does not run on patches in the test directory | 17:17 |
| dansmith | vuil: they're working hard on that too | 17:17 |
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| garyk | so a patch like https://review.openstack.org/105454 should not be blopcked | 17:17 |
| vuil | ah got it | 17:17 |
| dansmith | garyk: yeah, that makes sense to me | 17:17 |
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| tjones | anything else on BP ? | 17:18 |
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| tjones | *listening* | 17:19 |
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| tjones | ok lets talk about bugs | 17:19 |
| tjones | #topic bugs | 17:19 |
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| tjones | #link http://tinyurl.com/p28mz43 | 17:19 |
| tjones | we have 59 | 17:19 |
| tjones | a number that is not going down | 17:20 |
| tjones | we have a number of these in new | 17:20 |
| tjones | or triaged state | 17:20 |
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| garyk | tjones: a lot of them have been triaged and a lot are in progress and a lot have been completed. | 17:21 |
| garyk | we need to do a cleanup | 17:21 |
| tjones | i filtered out completed | 17:21 |
| garyk | some are also very concerning - basically the multi cluster stuff break a lot of things | 17:21 |
| tjones | these are only new, inporgress, traged, and confirmed | 17:21 |
| garyk | i am in favor of pushsing rado's patch which drops the support as we discussed at the summit | 17:21 |
| tjones | HP raised a lot of concerns about that as i recall | 17:22 |
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| mdbooth | The principal concern was memory usage on vsphere, right? | 17:23 |
| garyk | yeah, i asked that they write to the list so that we can get some discussion going about it and there was nothing | 17:23 |
| mdbooth | I saw that | 17:23 |
| garyk | that was one - but it is something that can be addressed | 17:23 |
| tjones | i thought they posted something | 17:23 |
| garyk | my main concern is that each compute node has its own cache dir - that is very costly | 17:24 |
| tjones | i thought it was spinning up a n-compute for each cluster they did not like and the image cachce | 17:24 |
| mdbooth | So, I happened to read a tripleo thing about deploying multiple novas per node earlier | 17:24 |
| garyk | tjones: i do not recall seeing anything. if someone did can you please forward the mail message to me | 17:24 |
| mdbooth | That would solve a provisioning issue, but not the memory usage thing | 17:24 |
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| tjones | https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg29338.html | 17:25 |
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| mdbooth | garyk: I think that's something we're going to have to live with until we get inter-node locking | 17:25 |
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| tjones | i think the biggest issue is what to do with existing customers that have deployed the current way. what is the upgrade path? | 17:26 |
| mdbooth | garyk: Random thought: how likely is the backing store to do de-duplication? | 17:26 |
| garyk | tjones: thanks | 17:26 |
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| vuil | @mdbooth storage-vendor specific | 17:27 |
| mdbooth | Right, but is it common? | 17:27 |
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| garyk | mdbooth: soryy i do not understand | 17:27 |
| vuil | *not entirely sure* | 17:27 |
| mdbooth | Would suck to have to recommend it, for sure | 17:28 |
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| mdbooth | tjones: Is anybody looking at that, btw? | 17:29 |
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| tjones | mdbooth: looking at?? | 17:30 |
| tjones | upgrade? | 17:30 |
| mdbooth | tjones: yeah | 17:30 |
| tjones | no that i am aware of | 17:30 |
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| tjones | i tihink we have to tackle that before we do this change though | 17:30 |
| mdbooth | Is anybody currently motivated to do it? | 17:31 |
| mdbooth | s/motivated/motivatable/ | 17:31 |
| vuil | so the path we are talking about is provide inter-node locking then make image caching more efficient | 17:31 |
| tjones | i dont see any way around saying "you have to reconfgure your n-compute" | 17:31 |
| vuil | before taking out multi-cluster? | 17:32 |
| mdbooth | tjones: Right. Presumably also db hacking. | 17:32 |
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| mdbooth | Much nastiness. | 17:32 |
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| tjones | yes | 17:32 |
| garyk | mdbooth: there is no need for db hacking | 17:32 |
| garyk | there is a patch for the esx migration | 17:32 |
| garyk | an external utility | 17:32 |
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| garyk | https://review.openstack.org/101744 | 17:33 |
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| tjones | so the issues with this are 1. soap takes too much memory / connection (could be solved with pyvmomi) 2. image cache duplication 3. upgrade path. | 17:34 |
| tjones | right? | 17:34 |
| garyk | btw there is also a pacth for the actual esx deprecation | 17:34 |
| mdbooth | tjones: I don't see how pyvmomi would solve 1 | 17:34 |
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| tjones | doesn't is use a different transport? | 17:34 |
| tjones | not soap | 17:34 |
| mdbooth | If it can, then we can presumably solve it without pyvmomi | 17:34 |
| mdbooth | Don't think so | 17:34 |
| vuil | no still soap, but on a more lightweight stack | 17:35 |
| mdbooth | More lightweight on the client side, no difference to the server | 17:35 |
| vuil | as in we may save some memory usage by taking out suds | 17:35 |
| vuil | *remains to be seen* | 17:35 |
| mdbooth | Our problem is on the server, though, iiuc | 17:35 |
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| vuil | hp was concerned about multiple computes each taking up lots of resources. | 17:36 |
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| garyk | my concerns of the multi cluster support are edge cases - for example the rezie issue | 17:36 |
| mdbooth | vuil: That was resources on vcenter, though, right? | 17:36 |
| vuil | I don't think server impact is going to be much | 17:36 |
| tjones | i thought they were concerned on the client side - running multiple n-compute | 17:36 |
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| * mdbooth might have misunderstood this | 17:36 | |
| vuil | no actual python n-cpu processes taking up memory. | 17:36 |
| garyk | https://review.openstack.org/108225 | 17:37 |
| tjones | yeah that is what i thought | 17:37 |
| dansmith | I thought I heard somethign about server side too | 17:37 |
| dansmith | because each connection to vcenter comes with a lot of overhead | 17:37 |
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| vuil | in terms of load on VC it is pretty much the same whether it comes from one ncpu managing N clusters or N ncpu managing one each | 17:37 |
| mdbooth | ~140MB in the driver | 17:37 |
| mdbooth | Got it | 17:37 |
| dansmith | so one compute using one connection for lots of machines | 17:37 |
| mdbooth | Ok, that's way more manageable | 17:37 |
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| vuil | @dansmith, addition of a couple more connections should not be too big of a deal. | 17:38 |
| dansmith | vuil: okay | 17:38 |
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| mdbooth | So, tripleo were talking about deploying multiple novas per server in separate containers | 17:39 |
| tjones | even if we can decrease the client side memory load we still have the duplcate cache and upgrade. with duplicate cache we could solve with using shared datastore for glance - right? | 17:39 |
| mdbooth | And in the grand scheme of thinks, anybody deploying 32 VMware clusters worth of openstack isn't going to notice the cost of 4GB of RAM | 17:40 |
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| mdbooth | Although it's inelegant to waste it, it's probably not a huge deal | 17:40 |
| vuil | mdbooth: my thoughts as well. | 17:41 |
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| mdbooth | Duplicate cache: | 17:42 |
| mdbooth | Only an issue for clusters sharing datastores | 17:42 |
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| mdbooth | Otherwise the cache would be duplicated anyway | 17:43 |
| tjones | we need to get to a place where we can implement this change without screwing HPs existing customers…. | 17:43 |
| garyk | tjones: yes, they are in production and this would break a installtion | 17:44 |
| tjones | yep | 17:44 |
| dansmith | so, | 17:44 |
| dansmith | sounds like maybe we should put something into the juno release notes that such an arrangement is deprecated | 17:45 |
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| dansmith | to give time and notice so we can get something into kilo? | 17:45 |
| tjones | i was just typing that very thing | 17:45 |
| dansmith | cool | 17:45 |
| tjones | we should deprecate thsi to give them some time | 17:45 |
| dansmith | is there a config variable that would go away that we can also document as deprecated? | 17:45 |
| dansmith | and, despite it's limited usefulness, we should also log.warning("this is going away soon") if they have that configured | 17:46 |
| dansmith | per usual protocol | 17:46 |
| garyk | no, there is no specific config var | 17:46 |
| mdbooth | The one which selects clusters, presumably | 17:46 |
| tjones | yeah - i think it's a list | 17:46 |
| garyk | we can identify if there is more than one cluster configured | 17:46 |
| dansmith | so, iirc, the patch changed it from a list to a string, which we can't do anyway | 17:46 |
| garyk | but i think that we should address the issue on the list with the guys from hp | 17:46 |
| mdbooth | self._cluster_names = CONF.vmware.cluster_name | 17:47 |
| dansmith | so: 1. document in release notes, 2. log.warning() if len(list)>1 ? | 17:47 |
| mdbooth | Hmm | 17:47 |
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| mdbooth | So it's still going to be called 'cluster_name', presumably | 17:47 |
| mdbooth | Except it's no longer going to accept a list | 17:47 |
| garyk | https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/virt/vmwareapi/driver.py#L60 | 17:47 |
| mdbooth | That's ugly | 17:47 |
| dansmith | mdbooth: yeah, that was my complaint, IIRC | 17:47 |
| garyk | i think that this needs more discussion prior to us doing a deprecation warning | 17:48 |
| tjones | we really should reply back on that thread | 17:48 |
| dansmith | garyk: IMHO, we mark as deprecated to force the conversation, nothing says we *have* to yank it in kilo if not ready | 17:48 |
| garyk | an existing customer will also need an upgrade patch for cached images. | 17:48 |
| tjones | to keep kiran in the loop - this time is not very good for him | 17:48 |
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| garyk | dansmith: i think that is not a good approach | 17:49 |
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| garyk | why force something until we have thought it out properly | 17:49 |
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| dansmith | garyk: well, because I feel like we've decided that it's coming out, we just have to figure out how it's going to look when it's out | 17:49 |
| dansmith | garyk: and because if we're going to deprecate, starting the timer limits when we can actually remove it | 17:50 |
| garyk | no, we have not decided | 17:50 |
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| garyk | a few people have but the general community has some issues with this | 17:50 |
| dansmith | we agreed at summit, no? | 17:50 |
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| garyk | at the summit we discussed it in a small room. after the summit people started to raise issues | 17:50 |
| garyk | are we not allowed to change things after problems and issues are raised? | 17:51 |
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| garyk | is that going to build a healthy community discussion? | 17:51 |
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| dansmith | sure, we can.. I didn't think any of the discussion here was considering the option of not doing it | 17:51 |
| dansmith | but that's fine, see how the ML thread goes | 17:51 |
| garyk | some people who work on the driver were not able to attend the summit and only afterthey were awair of discussion did they reiase thier issues | 17:51 |
| garyk | and i think that they have come with some valid arguments | 17:52 |
| dansmith | but we should make sure to revisit before too late in juno, merely for the deprecation timer ... timing :) | 17:52 |
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| garyk | to be honest i am kicking myself for not having found the problems when we originally added the feature, but we all approved that | 17:52 |
| tjones | ok the way we got to this discussion was because we were talking about bugs | 17:52 |
| tjones | #link http://preview.tinyurl.com/kkyw9c4 | 17:52 |
| garyk | i will follow up on this list tomorrow about this | 17:52 |
| tjones | of the 59 there are 20 that are not owned by anyone and some are high prio | 17:53 |
| tjones | garyk thanks for following up | 17:53 |
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| tjones | so - 6 minutes left. please do reviews, fix bugs, etc. | 17:54 |
| tjones | #topic open discussion | 17:54 |
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| tjones | anything else? | 17:54 |
| garyk | tjones: i honestly do not like the multi cluster support and would be happy to see it dropped, but we need to find something that works :) | 17:54 |
| tjones | garyk: i don't disagree at all | 17:55 |
| mdbooth | tjones: Any chance of getting more hardware for minesweeper? | 17:55 |
| tjones | mdbooth: it is on order (and has been for a while). it will get here in sept | 17:55 |
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| tjones | it's a slllllooooowwwww process | 17:56 |
| * mdbooth has been there | 17:56 | |
| garyk | mdbooth: my understanding is that there is a request for more hardware | 17:56 |
| garyk | and we all know how long that can take | 17:56 |
| tjones | dansmith: im going to see if we can figure out how to get external access to the minesweeper status and queue | 17:56 |
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| dansmith | tjones: just scraping it and POSTing to an external site would be enough | 17:56 |
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| dansmith | tjones: just so we have some indication on whether we should ping you, or wait, or... :) | 17:56 |
| tjones | yes that is what i am thinking - put it on the same place as my bug list | 17:57 |
| dansmith | yeah | 17:57 |
| tjones | if only i could get a free RAX vm.... | 17:57 |
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| tjones | :-) | 17:57 |
| mdbooth | :) | 17:57 |
| tjones | ok i have nothing else - anyone?? | 17:58 |
| mdbooth | tjones: Email it somewhere? | 17:58 |
| dansmith | heaven forbid, the multi-billion dollar company pay $12/mo for hosting :) | 17:58 |
| tjones | lol | 17:58 |
| mdbooth | dansmith: Do you know how much the lawyers to approve $12/mo hosting cost? | 17:58 |
| tjones | it's $14 :-D | 17:58 |
| dansmith | tjones: https://www.digitalocean.com/pricing/ | 17:58 |
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| dansmith | tjones: $5 would be plenty for this :P | 17:59 |
| tjones | nice! cheaper that AWS | 17:59 |
| dansmith | mdbooth: I used to work for IBM, I know all about this :) | 17:59 |
| mdbooth | We're all the same :) | 18:00 |
| tjones | ok i think we are done - thanks folks! | 18:00 |
| garyk | have a good one | 18:00 |
| mdbooth | g'night | 18:01 |
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| mdbooth | #endmeeting ? | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 6 18:01:53 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2014/vmwareapi.2014-08-06-17.01.html | 18:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2014/vmwareapi.2014-08-06-17.01.txt | 18:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2014/vmwareapi.2014-08-06-17.01.log.html | 18:01 |
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| notmyname | swift team meeting time | 19:00 |
| torgomatic | hi | 19:00 |
| portante | o/ | 19:00 |
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| notmyname | #startmeeting swift | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 6 19:01:08 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'swift' | 19:01 |
| mattoliverau | o/ | 19:01 |
| notmyname | hello everyone | 19:01 |
| notmyname | who's here for the swift meeting | 19:01 |
| notmyname | ? | 19:01 |
| gvernik | hello | 19:01 |
| tdasilva | hello | 19:01 |
| acoles | here | 19:01 |
| cutforth | present | 19:01 |
| zaitcev | o/ | 19:01 |
| peluse | yo | 19:01 |
| NM | o/ | 19:01 |
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| notmyname | agenda is at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Swift as normal | 19:02 |
| portante | o/ | 19:02 |
| hurricanerix | hello | 19:02 |
| notmyname | glad to see you all here | 19:02 |
| notmyname | a few important things to talk about, I think | 19:02 |
| notmyname | first up, some general housekeeping | 19:02 |
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| notmyname | #topic general housekeeping | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "general housekeeping (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:02 | |
| notmyname | two things | 19:02 |
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| notmyname | first, peluse is now in swift core. | 19:02 |
| notmyname | yay! | 19:02 |
| mattoliverau | woo! | 19:02 |
| portante | woot! | 19:02 |
| cutforth | congrats Paul | 19:03 |
| peluse | thanks!! | 19:03 |
| tdasilva | nice! congrats! | 19:03 |
| portante | don't mess wit d'man! | 19:03 |
| zaitcev | Good. | 19:03 |
| peluse | :) | 19:03 |
| acoles | peluse: congrats | 19:03 |
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| notmyname | and second up, the swift hackathon | 19:03 |
| notmyname | peluse: heh | 19:03 |
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| kota_ | Hi | 19:03 |
| notmyname | next week the hackathon invites will be public | 19:03 |
| notmyname | it will be in boston during the bridge week between spet-and oct | 19:04 |
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| notmyname | err | 19:04 |
| notmyname | september and october | 19:04 |
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| peluse | nice! | 19:04 |
| notmyname | space is pretty limited, I'm told, so register soon :-) | 19:04 |
| notmyname | that's coming next wednesday | 19:04 |
| notmyname | and thanks to tdasilva for coordinating that from the red hat side :-) | 19:05 |
| tdasilva | np | 19:05 |
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| notmyname | a could of other things | 19:05 |
| notmyname | (going out of order on the agenda) | 19:05 |
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| notmyname | I'm hoping for a swift release in a few weeks (end of august timeframe) | 19:06 |
| notmyname | I'll be looking at what's landed and what's outstanding to see when the best time is | 19:06 |
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| notmyname | this should give us time for another at the end of the openstack cycle | 19:06 |
| notmyname | so be aware that's on the horizon | 19:06 |
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| notmyname | and, I'd like to give a little update on the EC mini-hackathon we had at box the past couple of days | 19:07 |
| notmyname | it was really productive | 19:07 |
| notmyname | we got a lot of the remaining work sketched out | 19:07 |
| notmyname | the trello board is up to date with what needs to be done | 19:08 |
| notmyname | https://trello.com/b/LlvIFIQs/swift-erasure-codes | 19:08 |
| notmyname | frankly, there's a lot of work, but nothing that is particularly scary | 19:08 |
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| notmyname | please jump in and pick up tasks from there to work on | 19:08 |
| notmyname | the swift spec for the erasure coding work is at http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/swift-specs/specs/swift/erasure_coding.html | 19:08 |
| notmyname | that has a lot of the detail | 19:08 |
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| peluse | sidenote: if you grab a task please make yourself a card member, if you're just intersted in tracking a task plase don't add yourself (but you can register for udpates) | 19:09 |
| notmyname | and importantly, the trello stories have a number on them that corresponds to the spec sections | 19:09 |
| notmyname | any questions on the EC work? | 19:09 |
| notmyname | tushar (tsg) has some patches up on the ec branch that are pretty much ready to go | 19:10 |
| notmyname | we did some code review and he made a coupld of improvements | 19:10 |
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| notmyname | but please look at them to see some of the read and write patch for ec | 19:10 |
| notmyname | and please feel free to ask myself or peluse about the current status of stuff at any time | 19:11 |
| kota_ | Can I join Performance Analysis card on Trillo for erasure code? | 19:11 |
| kota_ | I've started pyeclib benchmark... | 19:11 |
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| peluse | kota: just use the 'register' button inthe card to indicate interest or if you have a task you want to take that's specific you can add a new card, or add yourself to the card and make an activity note as to what scope you are looking at | 19:12 |
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| kota_ | peluse: Ok, thanks. | 19:12 |
| peluse | example: feel free to add a specific task to benchmakr pyeclin :) | 19:12 |
| cschwede_ | i think mjseger might be interested in that (performance analysis) too, maybe i should ping him… | 19:12 |
| notmyname | cschwede_: mjseger_ just joined :-) | 19:12 |
| mjseger_ | ;) | 19:13 |
| peluse | yup, and multiple folks can and should benchmark too so multiple members is great (on the card) | 19:13 |
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| cschwede_ | hehe, nice :) | 19:13 |
| peluse | just trying to keep 'members' limited to people that are actively working so we know where things are in need of more resournces is all... | 19:13 |
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| notmyname | if someone finds that they aren't a member of the board, let me know and I'll add you | 19:13 |
| notmyname | peluse: +1 | 19:13 |
| notmyname | any other questions about EC before we move on? | 19:14 |
| notmyname | ok. /me takes deep breath | 19:15 |
| notmyname | #topic swift TC gap analysis | 19:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "swift TC gap analysis (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:15 | |
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| notmyname | ok, now for the "fun" one | 19:16 |
| notmyname | up front, I want to say that this is mostly a report of what's happenign | 19:16 |
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| notmyname | here's the backstory: | 19:16 |
| notmyname | over the years, the TC has created a set of rules for project joining as incubated and then moving to integrated projects within openstack | 19:16 |
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| zaitcev | typical and inevitable | 19:17 |
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| notmyname | now that there is a set of rules, they are going to all the existing projects and seeing how these existing projects line up with the rules | 19:17 |
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| notmyname | this "gap analysis" then has been going on with all of the projects, and swift's turn during the TC meeting was yesterday | 19:18 |
| torgomatic | "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson | 19:18 |
| notmyname | the etherpad with the rules is at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/swift_gap_analysis | 19:18 |
| portante | torgomatic: well quoted | 19:18 |
| notmyname | and the meeting logs are at http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-05-20.02.html | 19:18 |
| torgomatic | thank you | 19:18 |
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| notmyname | here's the summary: | 19:18 |
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| notmyname | two major "gaps" were identified | 19:18 |
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| notmyname | importantly, gaps is in quotes, because they may or may not be | 19:19 |
| portante | torgomatic: I also think you have rightly identified a major difference in swift vs the rest of openstack: on data path vs in control path | 19:19 |
| notmyname | so, differences | 19:19 |
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| notmyname | these are our use of oslo libraries and our versioning/releases | 19:19 |
| portante | that one fact does not appear to be considered by folks from that TC meeting | 19:19 |
| notmyname | here's what happens next: | 19:19 |
| notmyname | we've known than there are differences, but now we either need to get official approval that the differences are or or we need to change to match the rest of openstack | 19:20 |
| notmyname | during the next weeks or months, this "conversation" will be had | 19:20 |
| notmyname | either online before the summit or in person in paris | 19:21 |
| notmyname | if we choose to change something, then that task will be tracked by the TC | 19:21 |
| notmyname | and so we, as a community, need to choose what we do. importantly, if we do not want to change, we must convince the TC that the benefits of us being different are better than conformity with other openstack projects | 19:22 |
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| notmyname | I have already started an email thread with all the core devs, and this is something that will be an ongoing discussing | 19:22 |
| notmyname | and I would like all of your input and help. either way you feel ont he matter | 19:22 |
| notmyname | ok, that's my intro to it. what questions do you have? :-) | 19:23 |
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| portante | what is the forum for consolidating all the input from this community? | 19:23 |
| portante | you have a core devs email, should we have an etherpad that enumerates the ideas? | 19:24 |
| notmyname | portante: there isn't one yet. what would you prefer to use? etherpad? wiki? | 19:24 |
| mattoliverau | +1 to etherpad | 19:24 |
| portante | I'd like to invite the TC members to a discussion with the core devs of swift | 19:24 |
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| notmyname | portante: yes. but that would probably be better in person, IMO | 19:25 |
| cschwede_ | portante: irl? | 19:25 |
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| portante | does it have to be decided by k-summit in Paris? | 19:25 |
| portante | It seems like they want a decision sooner or later, but is there a deadline for deciding? | 19:26 |
| notmyname | portante: the scope of the changes are such that I expect any changes to be made during the k cycle | 19:26 |
| notmyname | no official deadline now | 19:26 |
| notmyname | ie I don't expect changes to be made in the juno cycle | 19:26 |
| portante | notmyname: I think we need to do changes over multiple releases, I don't think it is reasonable to expect all changes in one cycle | 19:26 |
| portante | not that I am suggesting we make any changes, just that the nature of production use would require that | 19:27 |
| notmyname | portante: of course. I expect that decisions over what, if anything, should be changed will be made by the end of the paris summit. I don't expect changes to be implemented until after that | 19:27 |
| portante | further, I believe that we should have this discussion with the big production users, and get their feedback | 19:27 |
| portante | it is not clear to me that this kind of change should only be decided by the devs | 19:28 |
| portante | ops-in! | 19:28 |
| * notmyname is debating what to say in a public, logged forum ;-) | 19:28 | |
| * torgomatic is not a fan of making a change merely for the sake of conformity | 19:28 | |
| torgomatic | if I have to decide between forcing operators to do a bunch of work vs. having some conditionals in infra's scripts, I'm going with the operators | 19:29 |
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| portante | we have a chance to help educate the larger openstack community about what openstack swift really is | 19:29 |
| portante | torgomatic: agreed, but let's see if we can't get that in an illustrated form ... | 19:29 |
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| torgomatic | portante: indeed | 19:30 |
| portante | we need to educate the TC about data plane APIs, they seem to be stuck on control plane APIs only | 19:30 |
| notmyname | I think it's safe to say that if we present an argument against conformity, we will have a lot of work to do as a group that includes education and input from deployers | 19:30 |
| notmyname | portante: note that on a mailing list thread this week, some have been advocating that openstack is indeed a provisioning layer for other technology | 19:31 |
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| portante | notmyname: I am not sure that taking up conformity as the root of this is accurate; it would communicate that swift is just like the other projects, and it is not | 19:31 |
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| notmyname | portante: yes, I think that's a good and right perspective | 19:32 |
| notmyname | here's what I want to do next | 19:32 |
| notmyname | I want to continue to hammer out some semblance of a "position" with the core devs over the next week or two | 19:32 |
| notmyname | and I want to solicit input from the wider community (starting here today!) | 19:33 |
| notmyname | and then, after we have some sort of internal plan, I want to begin engaging, face-to-face if possible, with the TC | 19:33 |
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| notmyname | but to be honest, the last 24 hours haven't been so good for me, and so I know I'm not mentally or emotionally ready to make decisions one way or the other | 19:34 |
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| zaitcev | Until Sam's e-mail I didn't realize just how off-kilter Oslo has become. | 19:34 |
| notmyname | for the record, sam (torgomatic) reference the mailing list post about up to 80% degredation when using oslo.messaging with swift | 19:35 |
| zaitcev | Version seems like a non-issue to me, semantic-schemantic. | 19:35 |
| peluse | heh | 19:35 |
| torgomatic | It's possible that I'm missing something, but if I'm right, using oslo.config would be a major regression in terms of functionality available to deployers | 19:35 |
| notmyname | torgomatic: I think the same can be said for oslo logging too | 19:36 |
| portante | to me, the release is a non-issue, just create community releases via github or something, no need to involve openstack mechanism | 19:36 |
| peluse | portante: +1 | 19:36 |
| torgomatic | most likely; python's logging framework has been hammered on by lots of folks for a long time... and then there's oslo.logging | 19:36 |
| notmyname | that's an interesting though | 19:36 |
| zaitcev | I only dealt with Olso through the Guru Meditation initiative, which seemed like taking an excellent idea and applying a dozen of opaque layers of useless abstractions, then not implementing basics that Swift needed. | 19:36 |
| notmyname | torgomatic: to be fair, both use python's logging module. just we use a syslog handler and they don't | 19:36 |
| torgomatic | notmyname: thanks; I did not know that | 19:37 |
| clarkb | notmyname: it can use the syslog handler too | 19:37 |
| notmyname | but there's is "configurable" | 19:37 |
| notmyname | clarkb: that's good to know too. thanks | 19:37 |
| * torgomatic retracts the comment about oslo.logging | 19:37 | |
| notmyname | clarkb: it's still incubated oslo, though, right? | 19:37 |
| notmyname | clarkb: so therefore copy/paste | 19:37 |
| clarkb | notmyname: yes I think so | 19:38 |
| notmyname | clarkb: ok, thanks | 19:38 |
| cschwede_ | to me the use of oslo.config and the possibility of breaking all existing middlewares (inside and outside of swift) looks really frightening | 19:38 |
| cschwede_ | that will require a lot of work, not only from the current swift developers | 19:39 |
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| cschwede_ | and operators might delay upgrading of swift, because of lacking resources to update their custom middlewares | 19:40 |
| notmyname | let's continue to debate it in email, and I'll set up an etherpad for continued discussion | 19:40 |
| notmyname | does that sound good? | 19:40 |
| peluse | yup | 19:40 |
| cschwede_ | notmyname: +1 | 19:40 |
| mattoliverau | +1 | 19:40 |
| acoles | yep | 19:40 |
| kota_ | +1 | 19:40 |
| notmyname | thanks, everyone. | 19:41 |
| portante | +1 | 19:41 |
| acoles | notmyname: lets be careful to treat the versioning and oslo issues separately, i'm seeing less resistance to the former | 19:41 |
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| notmyname | acoles: correct. they are differnt issues and it's not a black/white choice of all or nothing | 19:41 |
| notmyname | now, normally we cover patches in the meeting, but to be honest the gap analysis stuff has kinda taken it all out of me for today. I'd be happy if someone wanted to cover some stuff in #openstack-swift, but would anyone object to ending the meeting now? | 19:42 |
| peluse | cool by me | 19:43 |
| torgomatic | no problems here | 19:43 |
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| notmyname | thanks everyone for attending and for your work in swift. | 19:43 |
| notmyname | #endmeeting | 19:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:43 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 6 19:43:36 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:43 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2014/swift.2014-08-06-19.01.html | 19:43 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2014/swift.2014-08-06-19.01.txt | 19:43 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2014/swift.2014-08-06-19.01.log.html | 19:43 |
| mattoliverau | notmyname: thanks | 19:43 |
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| mjseger_ | exit | 19:43 |
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