Wednesday, 2014-08-06

jogomordred: not meed daily, but do 'homework' daily00:01
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mordredjogo: bah00:02
jogomordred: at least I don't wanta daily quiz ;)00:03
* mordred starts sending jogo daily quizzes00:04
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* jogo drops mordred's clasand looks for a nicer teacher00:06
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cody-somervillejogo: mordred:
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mordredcody-somerville: zomg00:09
mordredcody-somerville: I can cause a quiz to print out once a day at jogo's house?00:09
cody-somervilleYar. Through the power of the cloud no less.00:10
* jogo doesn't have a printer :)00:11
cody-somervillejogo: I bet we can fix that ;)00:12
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vthaparviveknarasimhan: ping10:27
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zaneb#startmeeting heat12:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Aug  6 12:00:39 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is zaneb. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.12:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)"12:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'heat'12:00
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zanebtspatzier: interested in chairing today?12:01
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tspatzierzaneb: sure12:01
asalkeldzaneb, getting weary of the chair12:01
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zaneb#chair tspatzier12:01
openstackCurrent chairs: tspatzier zaneb12:01
tspatzierzaneb: ok, let's see how I do ;)12:02
tspatzier#startmeeting heat12:02
zanebasalkeld: it's 8am, hard enough to just function normally ;)12:02
openstacktspatzier: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.  Use #endmeeting first.12:02
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skraynevhey :)12:02
asalkeld10pm here12:02
zanebtspatzier: I already started the meeting, but I set you as a chair12:02
tspatzier#topic rollcall12:02
*** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)"12:02
tspatziersorry guys, doing this the first time, so bare with me ;)12:03
mspreitzI'll keep my clothes on, if you don't mind12:04
tspatzier#topic Review last week's actions12:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Review last week's actions (Meeting topic: heat)"12:04
zanebugh, I didn't create the agenda for this week12:04
pas-haand there were no actions12:04
skraynevtspatzier: norm, do not worry :)12:04
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tspatzierthere were no actions :)12:05
tspatzierso moving on12:05
tspatzier#topic adding items to the agend12:05
*** openstack changes topic to "adding items to the agend (Meeting topic: heat)"12:05
tspatzier#topic adding items to the agenda12:05
*** openstack changes topic to "adding items to the agenda (Meeting topic: heat)"12:05
zanebhmm, we should have had an action for stevebaker to update the gap closing wiki page12:05
pas-habtw, speaking of actions = what happened to Rax CI/CD job? is it on?12:05
tspatzieraccording to the log there was none12:06
zaneb#action zaneb check with stevebaker about progress on gap coverage plan12:06
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tspatzierok, regarding the agenda:
tspatzieranything to add?12:06
zanebthat's last week's12:07
zanebI just added it like 1 minute ago12:07
asalkeldhow do we keep up with the convergence meetup?12:07
* zaneb is not very organised this week12:08
zanebasalkeld: you mean the heat meetup, not the tripleo meetup right?12:08
* asalkeld feeling left out12:09
asalkeldmight be hard given the tz difference12:09
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zanebok, let's put that on the agenda12:10
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tspatzierdoing it right now...12:10
zanebit's going to be a short meeting anyway, I suspect :)12:10
tspatzier#topic Keeping up to date on the Heat mid-cycle meet-up12:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Keeping up to date on the Heat mid-cycle meet-up (Meeting topic: heat)"12:11
tspatzierso this is the only topic before critical issues synch12:11
asalkeldgiven the large review list, is there a way for us to priortise reviews?12:11
asalkeld(so I can focus my reviewing ...)12:12
zanebbtw, small announcement: if you are going to the meetup, check my mailing list post and make sure you are signed up12:12
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zanebotherwise security will bounce you12:12
ryansbzaneb: checked + signed in. Is starting at 9am still the plan?12:13
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zanebryansb: in your case, bring your employee badge an you'll have no trouble ;)12:13
skraynevzaneb: sound like you have iron man as security :)12:13
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ryansbzaneb: Yup. It lives in my suitcase so I won't forget it.12:14
zanebryansb: smart :)12:14
* ryansb has a problem with forgetting identification when going places12:14
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zanebasalkeld: so etherpads would be one way for folks to keep up12:15
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zanebbut as you said, with the time zones it's going to be tricky12:15
asalkeldzaneb, yip was thinking of that12:15
asalkeldwhat is planned?12:15
zanebwhat parts are you interested in following?12:15
ryansbmaybe do a bluejeans sync-up either early morning or late evening to accomadate tz's?12:15
asalkeldin general12:16
asalkeldbut maybe the cont. observer12:16
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tspatzierI'll be on vacation, so would be interested to read things afterwards. etherpads?12:16
zanebI think the idea is to actually start hacking, more than to just talk about stuff again12:16
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zanebso maybe daily pushes of working branches to e.g. GitHub might help as well12:17
asalkeldreview is better12:17
tspatzierso reviews for everyone to stay up to date12:17
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zaneb#info try to push WIP reviews during meetup so non-attendees can follow along at home12:18
BillArnoldzaneb +1 that would be very helpful12:18
skraynevmay be make sense to have one common tag for these reviews? it will allow search easier12:18
asalkeldalso a "how to run", so we can give it a go and help out12:19
zanebskraynev: that's a great idea12:19
asalkeld24hr hacking12:19
skraynevasalkeld; sounds awesome :)12:20
skraynevasalkeld: and a little crazy ;)12:20
asalkeldjust don't want a massive code dump on the reviews that I know nothing about12:20
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asalkeldit's better to get involved early12:21
zaneb#info use branch name "juno-midcycle" to ensure easy filtering of reviews12:21
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skraynevzaneb: thx12:21
tspatziergreat, sounds like we have a plan. anything else on this topic?12:21
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tspatzierso moving on ...12:22
tspatzier#topic Critical issues sync12:22
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*** openstack changes topic to "Critical issues sync (Meeting topic: heat)"12:22
tspatzieris there anything critical at the moment?12:23
tspatzierdoes not seem so12:23
tspatzier#topic open discussion12:24
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)"12:24
tspatzierdoes anyone have anything?12:24
mspreitzI wouldn't mind a little follow-up to last week's beating over ASG health12:24
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mspreitzI have a plan B to discuss12:25
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mspreitzok then..12:26
mspreitzPlan B is in two parts...12:26
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mspreitzone is to get LB pool member health info into Ceilometer samples; that is not Heat work12:27
mspreitzthe other part is a stop-gap while waiting for automatic convergence...12:27
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mspreitzWhat do you think of this idea: let a scaling group do a check for undermined members and remove them, as part of a resize12:27
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mspreitzundermined = the underlying thing has been deleted, leaving a record in the Resource table whose nova_instance refers to no existing thing12:28
zanebmspreitz: we know we need something to allow the application to choose members to delete on scale-down, so this may tie in with that12:28
mspreitzzaneb: I think these can be mods to distinct parts of the code...12:29
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mspreitzmy mod affects the list of existing members handed to the method that produces the new template; Bill's part modifies that method.12:29
zanebyeah, I saw your definition of 'undermined' after I wrote that12:29
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zanebso the 'stack check' reviews are I think close to landing12:30
mspreitzalthough, maybe, there is one little interaction..12:30
zanebit would make sense to me if the autoscaling code used something like stack check to check for member health during scaling operations12:30
mspreitzthe scale down plugin will be given a list of members already decided to remove; maybe that should include ones detected as undermined.12:31
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mspreitzOK, I'll look at those12:31
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mspreitzthanks for the link12:33
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mspreitzI am done12:35
mspreitzwith that topic12:35
tspatziermspreitz: I think you and BillArnold had some specs. Are they current?12:35
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tspatzierI mean specs on that topic ...12:35
mspreitzI think the spec about autoscaling across AZs is current12:35
mspreitzI will let Bill speak to his12:35
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ryansbWhat's the current status of the config change for qpid? Did that go out yesterday?12:36
BillArnoldYes, scaledown plugpoing is current12:36
mspreitzMy network is flaky right now, can not do much with openstack.org12:36
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tspatzierok, so that might be worth looking at.12:36
zanebryansb: is this upstream, or in RDO?12:37
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ryansbI think RDO, but I'm not sure, lemme dig up the bug.12:38
BillArnoldtspatzier also stack lifecycle plugpoint spec -
zanebryansb: this is probably the wrong forum to discuss then12:39
ryansbzaneb: right, it is.12:39
tspatzierBillArnold: that one actually looks pretty complete to me.12:40
zanebryansb: np, we can discuss after12:40
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tspatzier^^if some cores could look at this if this is good to go?12:40
tspatzieranything else for this meeting?12:41
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tspatzierno - then thanks everyone!12:41
asalkeldzaneb, what's up with the plugin stuff? should I dump that12:42
asalkeldtspatzier, you can end it12:42
asalkeldwe can chat in #heat12:42
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"12:42
openstackMeeting ended Wed Aug  6 12:42:24 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)12:42
openstackMinutes (text):
zanebtspatzier: thanks! great job :)12:42
tspatzierzaneb: yw12:42
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* annegentle waves13:59
annegentlewho's here for doc team meeting?13:59
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annegentlewell I'm here :)14:00
annegentle#startmeeting docteam14:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Aug  6 14:00:36 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is annegentle. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'docteam'14:00
annegentlehi berendt!14:00
NickChaseHey, all14:00
annegentlehey NickChase14:00
annegentleAgenda is here:
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annegentle#topic Action items from the last meeting14:01
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annegentleregXboi to add list of existing neutron doc bugs to the blueprint wiki page14:01
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annegentleI'm looking14:01
annegentleNot yet14:02
NickChasehe did add some sections to the TOC14:02
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NickChaseI wonder if he thought that was what he was supposed to do14:03
annegentleah maybe so14:03
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NickChasehey, sam-i-am14:03
annegentleThere's also this for tracking14:03
annegentlethat actually leads nicely into the next topic14:04
annegentle#topic Blueprint plans in progress14:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Blueprint plans in progress (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:04
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annegentleWe have two docs-specs done,n,z14:05
annegentleGlossary sharing is done, thank you AJaeger14:05
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AJaegerNeeds approval from infra team but otherwise done (I hope ;)14:05
annegentlethe heat-templates spec is done, thank you Gauvain (who's on vacay)14:05
annegentleAJaeger: ah yes that's right14:05
annegentlethen there are two others I want specs for14:05
sldwhich are? ;)14:05
annegentleone is my responsibility, and I'm working with fifieldt, on redesign14:06
annegentlesld: can't type any faster :)14:06
AJaegerto see all specs, go to specs.openstack.org14:06
annegentleIt's related to an older blueprint14:06
annegentlelook at that 2011 date :)14:06
annegentlespecifically, this part:14:07
annegentleUse git review to edit docs on web: - Offer a way for readers to edit a page in a lightweight web-based editor, then use git-review in the background to submit a review to Gerrit.14:07
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1003153 in openstack-ci "Edit a doc page in a lightweight web-based editor" [Wishlist,Triaged]14:07
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sldAwesome idea!14:07
annegentleI will have a spec, I promise :)14:07
annegentleand it may or may not require redesign14:07
AJaegerannegentle, add yourself an #actionitem ;)14:07
sldlol ajaeger14:08
annegentlebut it'd be great to get a page-based method out there14:08
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annegentle#action annegentle to write spec for docs site redesign/experience design14:08
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annegentleThen there's the Networking work, I really want a spec for that since there's a lot of activity and coordination needed14:09
annegentleSam-I-Am: I think we'll have Shaun do it since you and Phil are busy14:09
annegentleit being the spec14:09
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annegentleand that's it for blueprints we're targeting that need specs14:10
Sam-I-Amjust need to move the toc wiki to it14:10
sldput that toc wiki link here for reference?14:10
annegentlethis one is fine without a spec, the ceilometer guide (though with all the mailing list discussion I wonder if a spec would've helped?)14:10
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Sam-I-Amyeah, he got to it first14:11
annegentleany other blueprints/specs to talk about?14:11
annegentleeglynn: do you want to talk about the ceilometer work?14:11
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eglynnannegentle: sure14:11
annegentlego ahead14:12
eglynnannegentle: in the context of the ML thread?14:12
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annegentleeglynn: whatever you want to talk about, really14:12
eglynnOK, so my goal there was to minimize the learning curve required for non-doc-team members to contribute documentation content14:12
eglynnas we have a TC-mandated action to beef up the admin guide for ceilometer14:13
eglynnso the gist of the discussion for those who missed it was ...14:13
eglynn(a) there is a new light-weight RST-based contribution model being trailblazed for the heat HOT guide14:14
eglynn(b) that model would not be applicable to the ceilometer case as we're contrib'ing content as a new chapter to the admin guide14:15
eglynn(c) we'll micro-streamline by clarifying exactly when in the workflow the doc polish should be applied14:15
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annegentleyep that's a good summary14:15
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eglynnon the latter point, that "exactly when" moment is when the porject-team contributor removes the WIP -1 flag on the patch14:16
NickChasewould it perhaps make sense...14:16
eglynnwe'll aim to be proactive about doing that and give you folks a heads-up14:16
annegentleright, a signal I messed up :(14:16
eglynnNickChase: /me is all ears14:16
NickChaseto treat the ceilometer chapter as a separate rst-based "book" that can then be included in the admin guide, since it's self-contained?14:16
eglynnannegentle: np! we're weren't 100% clear on the workflow either14:16
annegentleNickChase: we toyed with that idea too14:17
annegentleNickChase: generally I think RST makes sense for the user guide/ hot templates since it's what we ended up designing and discussing14:17
annegentlethe ceilometer request came in later14:17
annegentlenot that timing is everything at all14:17
annegentleand I'm interested in easing contributions14:18
annegentlejust not sure it's good to experiment with both the user guide and admin guide14:18
annegentlebut maybe I'm splitting hairs, it's okay, you can tell me :)14:18
NickChasewell, the HA guide has been using RST for some time14:18
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NickChaseso not sure how much of an "experiment" it would be, unless I'm missing somethiong14:18
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annegentleNickChase: no it started as asciidoc and is now docbook14:18
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annegentleNickChase: but that's a whole book, also, not an inserted chapter14:19
annegentleNickChase: but I like how we're thinking about this, just trying to contain the experiment I guess?14:19
NickChaseI can understand containment. and I missed the fact that it's now docbook. :)14:20
sld... have a suitable standalone guide/book for all projects, that all are also possible to be put together.. and have the stand alone viewable at <projectname> -- easier to find. ;)14:20
NickChasebut the chapter vs book thing I though is not an issue.14:20
eglynnannegentle, NickChase: so I would be happy to be part of an extended experiment, but will hew to the domain experts' judgement on this14:21
NickChasethat said, where DO we stand on what the ceilometer content is being produced as?14:21
annegentleNickChase: I really want to move to a page model, less book14:21
annegentleNickChase: but it's early14:21
annegentleNickChase: it's docbook patches now14:21
annegentleNickChase: mostly set to WIP14:21
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annegentlethanks for all the good discussion eglynn much appreciated14:21
annegentleshould probably move on to next topic14:22
eglynnNickChase: yep, we've some WIP docbook-based patches up, as we learned the ropes around the workflow14:22
annegentle#toipc Networking Guide and swarms14:22
AJaegereglynn, Ildiko (sp?) is doing great work!14:22
annegentle#link Networking Guide and swarms14:22
annegentleAJaeger: ++14:22
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annegentleer I can't operate a meetbot this morning14:22
annegentle#topic Networking Guide and swarms14:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Networking Guide and swarms (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:22
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annegentleThat one is in Brisbane, Aug. 9 (This Saturday!)14:23
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Sam-I-Amwhich is a friday night for US folks...14:23
annegentleAyup they are the futurists14:23
annegentleThen shortly after in the US, after the Ops Meetup, we'll meet for a day in San Antonio14:24
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sldthat thing for 2 days?14:25
annegentleThe dates are 8/25-8/26 for the Ops meetup, then we're meeting in a bunker for docs work on 8/27.14:25
sldsounds awesome14:25
AJaegersounds dark14:25
annegentlesld: hopefully it'll fit your schedule!14:25
annegentleAJaeger: hehe14:26
annegentleAJaeger: actually it's pretty light, in a renovated shopping mall14:26
annegentlebut the cloud was developed in the basement, with no hint of irony whatsoever :)14:26
sldannegentle: for the 27th - when/where is that at?14:26
AJaegerbunker reminds me of cold, wet and dark - thinking world war II...14:26
Sam-I-AmAJaeger: not far from the truth14:26
annegentlesld: SAT6-2325-Presidential Suite conference room14:26
annegentle#info Docs swarm this Saturday in Brisbane14:27
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annegentle#info Neutron doc day after Ops Meetup in San Antonio 8/27, SAT6-2325-Presidential Suite conference room14:27
annegentlesld: 9:00 am start14:27
annegentlesld: phil_h might have more details if he's an early bird though!14:27
annegentlesld: hopefully we can overlap some14:28
sldyeah, he gets in a little after 6, usually14:28
sldi hope :)14:28
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annegentle#topic Website design and contributor experience work in progress14:28
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annegentleso I have a meeting scheduled next week with HP to try to get that Gerrit web UI going14:28
annegentleI'll get a spec done once I know more14:28
annegentleI'm kind of excited14:29
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annegentle#topic HOT Template Guide in progress; Gauvain on vacation14:29
*** openstack changes topic to "HOT Template Guide in progress; Gauvain on vacation (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:29
annegentleThat's just a general FYI14:29
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annegentlethat's the Work In Progress patch for the curious14:30
annegentle#topic Architecture and Design Guide proof print on the way; meeting with wider content team14:30
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annegentleI've got a review in progress for the landing page to make it similar to the Ops Guide and Security Guide14:31
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annegentleI'm working with the Foundation on a promotion plan14:31
annegentleYou all probably know already there's a Content Team for the Foundation itself, separate from docs, but Docs PTL is involved14:32
annegentlesince there's a push for enterprise content we'll discuss how to promote and get more contributions14:32
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annegentleAh berendt just saw your request for arch14:32
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annegentleI think it's ok, arc has to stay since I stored the epub there (though we can always redirect)14:33
annegentleeasy to fix though14:33
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annegentlerelated to the landing, is berendt's patch for a templatized set of html flat files14:33
annegentleand sld looking to consolidate js14:33
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annegentleStatic site generator for your perusal:14:34
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annegentleI'll review later today ok berendt?14:34
annegentleLike how we're thinking more about this and the page-based thinking, thanks all14:34
berendtwe should first choose a site generator. there are a lot of them (listed at
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annegentleberendt: for sure14:35
berendtshould be discussed inside the review request or on the mailing list.14:35
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annegentleberendt: sure. I had thought of Jekyll or Middleman based on conversations in the last year or so14:35
annegentleberendt: and it may tie into the site design and gerrit / contributor design14:36
annegentleberendt: so we might not decide right away14:36
annegentleberendt: though man, do we need it!14:36
berendtthat's ok14:36
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annegentleberendt: that's a very useful site14:36
annegentleonce I have the proof print (hopefully this week!) we can do the promo work on the Arch Guide14:37
annegentleIt's really pretty :)14:37
annegentlethat green cover just pops14:37
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annegentleI also like to start thinking we'll have a book path and a page path for our content14:37
annegentlechoose certain paths for certain content14:37
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annegentleOk, definitely hope there are people around who want to talk about the next topic14:38
annegentle#topic API docs: replacing WADL links in dev refs14:38
*** openstack changes topic to "API docs: replacing WADL links in dev refs (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:38
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NickChaseI'll talk about anything. :)14:38
annegentleNickChase: nice, always good to have opinionated people around!14:38
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sldI may not say much, but I'm still here too. ;-)14:38
annegentleI've gathered data over the last year or so about API docs and contributions, and WADL is a really tough sell.14:39
annegentleIf you look at the contribution stats, Diane was the main contributor14:39
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Sam-I-Amwadl is horribad14:39
annegentleshe's still contributing because she's AWESOME but it's not her full-time job any more, she's at ebay14:39
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annegentlewadl fills a specific need14:39
annegentlebut, I think that need is best met with the API reference and not embedded in books14:39
annegentleespecially when those books don't include parameter output14:40
annegentleso my proposal is to remove WADL from the def refs and keep it only for the API Complete Reference14:40
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annegentleany one have concerns?14:40
annegentleonly cheering?14:40
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AJaegerannegentle, I think all of us try to avoid WADL ;( So, any removal is great ;)14:40
annegentleAJaeger: :)14:41
annegentleAJaeger: I know it has its place to describe APIs, but there are alternatives we need to investigate14:41
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annegentleSwagger, RAML, etc14:41
annegentleesp. if no one plans to assign a full time person just to WADL maintenance14:41
NickChasereally, I think we are going to have trouble with anything that requires someone to learn a new format14:42
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NickChaseI wish there was some way to just automatically extract from the code.........14:42
annegentleNickChase: yeah but they all are a new format for describing REST API (WADL is actually the oldest)14:42
annegentleNickChase: but then we don't know if the code is right14:42
annegentleNickChase: so that's dangerous14:42
annegentleNickChase: we need to serve users14:42
NickChasehang on: if we're documenting the code, the code is ALWAYS right -- even when it's wrong.14:43
annegentleNickChase: ha. Unless the code is wrong and we break tens of thousands of clients14:43
AJaegerworld domination? ;)14:43
annegentleOk last topic14:43
annegentleha AJaeger :)14:43
annegentle#topic Changing review team for clouddocs-maven-plugin14:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Changing review team for clouddocs-maven-plugin (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:43
annegentleAJaeger has a good idea here14:43
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sldwhen is that going to go through?14:44
AJaegersld: Never ;)14:44
annegentleBasically making the docs-core team have +2 on clouddocs-maven-plugin14:44
sldthat would be cool14:44
annegentleso that there's not just one person with +214:44
sldi like the logic behind it... it just makes sense.14:44
annegentleyeah me too14:44
AJaegerso, adding the docs-core team as group to clouddocs-maven-plugin - so keep Sam in and add us14:44
AJaegerThis only needs a change to the ACL, no patch14:45
annegentleAJaeger: yep. And there may be one other Racker, Thu Doan, we can add to the clouddocs-maven-plugin14:45
annegentleAJaeger: ok so do I abandon
AJaegerSure, I love to see more experts!14:45
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* annegentle is not sure of exact next steps14:45
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AJaegerannegentle, just ask Sam or the infra team to add us to the ACL14:45
annegentleOkay good it, is that a patch I can do?14:45
annegentleI've told Sam about the idea14:46
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AJaegerannegentle, the same way you add cores to docs-core...14:46
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AJaegerAsk the infra team14:46
annegentleah got it, in gerrit14:46
AJaegeryep - I guess Sam has the permissions to do it14:46
annegentle#action Anne to ask Sam Harwell to add docs-core to the clouddocs-maven-plugin review team14:46
annegentleok, that's all I got!14:47
annegentle#topic Open discussion14:47
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AJaegerplease help with bug triage and bug fixing!14:47
AJaegershould we have another bug squashing day?14:47
annegentleAJaeger: oh yes I like the idea14:47
annegentleAJaeger: September?14:47
AJaegerAugust is vacation month, so September...14:48
NickChaseI'm for september when we know what bugs are in for install14:48
sldwhat is code freeze date?14:48
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sldthat is in september.14:48
Sam-I-Amhopefully we'll have some juno packages by then14:48
phil_ham on vacation week of Sept 15th14:48
Sam-I-Amhopefully we wont see a lot of changes for the 'core' services in juno14:49
phil_hrc-1 comes out early Sept14:49
phil_hDVR in Juno Neutron concerns me14:49
Sam-I-Amfor icehouse we saw packages at milestone 214:49
annegentleSept 4 string freeze14:49
sldrc1 - september 25th14:49
phil_hInstall from source!!!!14:49
annegentleyep what sld said14:49
sldwas just looking at that page too. lol14:49
Sam-I-Amphil_h: no thanks14:49
sldphil_h: I'm SO there! :)14:50
annegentlephil_h: ahh14:50
Sam-I-Amphil_h: your experience seems too painful to put into the install guide14:50
annegentlephil_h: yeah the TC is also concerned about DVR14:50
NickChaseok I feel stupid but what's dvr?14:50
phil_hsoinstalling from source is not difficult and I am working on documenting on how to do it14:50
sldwhat is dvr?14:50
sldaside from digital video recorder, that is.14:50
phil_hdistribute virtualo router14:50
phil_hmakes Neutron L3 ha14:51
sldan ha-ish router?14:51
NickChaseahhhhhh ok.14:51
sldthat would be cool14:51
phil_hcritical for neutron to meet nova network parity14:51
Sam-I-Amthink of it kind of like vmware's dist virtual switch of sorts14:51
NickChaseyou're concerned about how to document it, or whether it works?14:51
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annegentlesld: distributed virtual router, I had to ask in the TC meeting :)14:51
phil_hif neuton does not achieve nova network parity is goes back to incubated14:52
annegentleNickChase: upgrade, migrations,
annegentlephil_h: I believe so14:52
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annegentleSeptember 4th week would be good for bug squash day14:53
annegentleMaybe Sept 5th?14:53
phil_hkmesterly the Neutron PTL told us that on a conf call a few weeks back14:53
annegentleit's a Friday so we'd lose Aussies14:53
annegentlephil_h: yeah I haven't started thinking about doc ramifications yet...14:53
annegentleI mean, I'm thinking about them, of course.14:53
NickChasephil_h: have you tried it yet?14:54
sldphil_h: if that happens, what will happen with networking?  neutron just goes away and we are left with nova-network again?14:54
phil_hThe DVR code has merged into trunk so I beleive it will be ok14:54
phil_hThere are a few bugs with DVR but it is coming along14:54
sldannegentle: that thursday then?14:54
annegentlesld: or we could do the Tues. after Sept 4th?14:54
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annegentle9/9 seems like a good day to squash bugs!14:55
NickChaseso we need to document DVR; I believe we are on our way to doing that.  I am supposed to get a few candidates for HA work today or tomorrow14:55
annegentleAJaeger: any thoughts on which weekday?14:55
phil_hI can't do 9/2-314:55
AJaegerannegentle, all are bad - Just throw a dice :)14:55
annegentleNickChase: yeah my sense is that the networking doc plans are considering that14:55
annegentlebut still, priorities priorities14:55
annegentlewe'll need a networking guide no matter the neutron outcome14:55
annegentlephil_h: ok good to know. I'd prefer to avoid 9/4 and 9/5 due to the gate possibly being slow14:56
phil_hThey need us to doc DVR to reach parity14:56
annegentlewe need a day for a fast gate14:56
annegentlephil_h: ok good to know14:56
phil_h9/1? or the next week?14:56
NickChasephil_h: we can make that happen14:56
NickChasephil_h: especially if you can brain dump14:56
phil_hWill try but right now I don't know much14:57
NickChasephil_h: heck, in a worst case scenario, if you can brain dump I can write it14:57
annegentlephil_h: I'd rather do bug triaging after a freeze14:57
NickChasewe have a couple of weeks before we need to panic14:57
annegentleI liking 9/914:57
phil_hI will be installing from source in the next couple of weeks and then I will know more14:57
Sam-I-Amdo that many bugs relate to juno though?14:57
annegentleAJaeger: do you want to take point on bug squashing?14:57
phil_h9/9 works for me14:57
AJaegerI'll try to14:58
annegentleSam-I-Am: I've been triaging API docs and for those, not too much.14:58
AJaeger9th should be fine14:58
Sam-I-Amseems like a lot of our bugs have been around a while14:58
annegentleSam-I-Am: for openstack-manuals bugs, I don't know if docimpact backlog is that huge14:58
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sld9/9 is a tuesday so that is middle of my work week, so that sucks.. but i will try and hang for a few hours to try and help.14:58
annegentleAJaeger: thank you! I can fill in as needed but want to focus on the design blueprint14:58
Sam-I-Amsld: we need coverage overnight too :)14:58
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annegentlesld: ok, sorry, we'll also see what APAC thinks of 9/914:58
Sam-I-Ambug day is a 24-hour event14:58
annegentleright Sam-I-Am! :)14:59
AJaegerWait? What did I just sign up for - annegentle "take point" means what?14:59
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AJaegerOrganizing it?14:59
sldLOL AJaeger!14:59
sldsounds like it. hehe14:59
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annegentleAJaeger: Heh. Can you do: write a note to the ML to ask about 9/914:59
AJaegerannegentle, yes, I will!14:59
annegentleAJaeger: once the date is decided, I think "point" just means "make sure the graphs work"14:59
annegentleAJaeger: that's all I'd ask of you :)14:59
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phil_hdvr meeting starting on openstack-meeting-alt15:00
annegentleAJaeger: and let's make sure fifieldt can help, he's such a fast/good bugs triager15:00
annegentleokie doke thanks all15:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:00
openstackMeeting ended Wed Aug  6 15:00:31 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:00
openstackMinutes (text):
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johnthetubaguy#startmeeting XenAPI15:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Aug  6 15:01:52 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is johnthetubaguy. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'xenapi'15:01
BobBallThat looks better in some fonts than others15:02
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BobBallit's meant to be me waving :/15:02
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johnthetubaguylol, hello15:02
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BobBallyes yes - that's just holding your hand up15:03
BobBallI can do that too15:03
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BobBallalso I can do the \o/ <o> (o /o\15:03
BobBallbut that's probably beside the point15:04
BobBalland should be saved for AOB at the end15:04
johnthetubaguy#topic XenServer CI15:04
*** openstack changes topic to "XenServer CI (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:04
johnthetubaguyso hows life in the CI world?15:04
BobBallThere seems to be a new race / timeout introduced15:04
johnthetubaguyoh goody, xenserver specific one?15:04
BobBalla whole bunch of the boto third party ec2 tests started failing the last few days15:04
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BobBallI've not found references to it outside of xenapi - so it could be configuration specific15:05
johnthetubaguythose have been dodgy in the past15:05
BobBallbut highly unlikely to be XenAPI specific15:05
BobBallAnyway - they hammered the pass rate15:05
johnthetubaguyyeah, I guess its possible, but seems unlikely15:05
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BobBallso over the last few days I've disabled most of them15:05
BobBallshould be back to a sensible pass rate now15:05
johnthetubaguyhows the skip list looking these days?15:05
johnthetubaguytempest test skip list that is15:05
BobBallbut the last set I only added today so it'll take a while to show up15:06
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BobBallquite good in comparison to the original list15:06
johnthetubaguyOk, cools, so its not massive, yeah15:06
johnthetubaguythats quite a nice small set of tests to try and debug and improve15:06
BobBallvolumes stuff and ec2 compatability stuff15:06
BobBallyeah - but the frustration is that I haven't been able to tickle them in the right way outside of the CI yet15:07
BobBalland because everyone expects the third party CIs to be "better than jenkins" (my interpretation) then we can't rely on it15:07
BobBallto qualify the "better than jenkins" expectation; if there is a random failure in a 3rd party CI my understanding is most people ignore the CI rather than think there is a race that needs to be tracked down; as such we have to pass significantly more of the time otherwise the CI would just fall into a permanently ignored state15:08
* BobBall doesn't like disabling tests :/15:08
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johnthetubaguywell, to be fair, they expect it to be as good as jenkins, and jenkins runs like four tempest tests per run, etc, etc15:09
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johnthetubaguyneed easier way to dev these kinds of test improvements I guess15:10
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BobBallThat's perhaps a discussion for another time15:10
johnthetubaguyany more on CI, looking like most things are stable-ish?15:10
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johnthetubaguy#link is looking quite good still15:11
johnthetubaguynot totally awesome, but thats the way it goes15:11
johnthetubaguy#topic Open Discussion15:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: XenAPI)"15:11
johnthetubaguyso, we got anything else for today?15:12
BobBallI haven't seen the report recently15:12
BobBallah yes15:12
BobBallquite a few failures - many more than I want15:12
BobBallwe got to a failure rate of about 1 in 4 before I added the exclusions15:12
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johnthetubaguyyeah, I think that was the state at the last meeting15:12
BobBallI'm pleased that we're still holding our own in terms of 3rd party CIs though15:12
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johnthetubaguyso glad that got stabalised, I am guessing the red bar is still from when that happened15:13
johnthetubaguyyeah, the other are much worse at this point, although that is causing its own issues15:13
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johnthetubaguyI have a bug fix up for some extra clean up with snapshots:
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BobBallalthough I worry that those stats aren't being updated again15:14
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johnthetubaguyyeah, there was talk of moving it into infra at somepoint soon15:14
BobBallfor XenServer CI both the first and last 'Missed' votes are more than 30 days old15:14
BobBallso I figure the stats are frozen at some point in the past15:14
johnthetubaguyhmm, that does smell bad15:14
BobBall(despite the 'updated' date15:14
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johnthetubaguyanyways, yeah, that bug fix would be good to get some eyes on it, but other than that, not much to report15:15
johnthetubaguyany more for today?15:16
BobBallnah not from me15:16
johnthetubaguycool, non from me15:16
BobBalloh sure - why not15:16
BobBallfix for neutron has gone up15:16
johnthetubaguylets gain some time back for the rest of the day15:16
johnthetubaguyah, interesting, it was broken then15:16
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johnthetubaguythanks BobBall15:18
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:18
openstackMeeting ended Wed Aug  6 15:18:30 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:18
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thingeejgriffith: meeting?16:03
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DuncanT-#startmeeting cinder16:05
openstackMeeting started Wed Aug  6 16:05:07 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is DuncanT-. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:05
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:05
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'cinder'16:05
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DuncanT-Hopefully John will be along in a moment.... who else is about?16:05
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DuncanT-#topic Mid cycle meetup16:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Mid cycle meetup (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:06
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DuncanT-Do we have Scott yet?16:06
thingeescottda: ^16:06
thingeejgriffith: yay!16:06
DuncanT-Hey John16:06
jgriffithsorry folks16:06
DuncanT-Right, we'll come back to him16:07
DuncanT-#topic Replication16:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Replication (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:07
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jgriffithhas anybody else looked at the two approaches?16:08
ronenkatFollowing discussions with John, I looked at how you would do replication via drivers, with limited support in Cinder iteself16:08
ronenkatI put a design at
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scottdaHi all. Sorry I'm late16:08
thingeejgriffith: I've have read both16:08
thingeeI have *16:09
ronenkatit puts more burden on the driver, creating the volumes, but reduces the burden of the generic Cinder code16:09
ronenkatI have very little db footprint16:09
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ronenkatI think it is less flexiable and harder on the driver, but can be a good start16:09
jgriffithronenkat: I'd rather put the burden there for a start at least :)16:10
DuncanT-I like the simple approach first, though I wonder if people who know more about replication can see anything missing?16:10
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DuncanT-Being harder on the driver is fine I think, drivers might chose to share some code where that makes sense16:10
jgriffithDuncanT-: full disclosure there are missing pieces16:10
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jgriffithI fully admit16:10
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jgriffithand ronenkat has pointed some of them out16:10
jgriffithfail over, disabling etc16:11
kmartinagree with the simply approach for us anyways16:11
eharneyi'm mostly trying to sort out whether this leaves the driver doing things it shouldn't really be responsible for... seems like it could be reasonable16:11
jgriffitheharney: expand?16:11
thingeejgriffith: I think that's what we wanted anyways. a simple first pass to build off of16:11
thingeeespescially this late16:11
jgriffitheharney: ie "what should a driver NOT be doing"16:11
ronenkatthe major point I am concerned with is that a driver may need to talk with another backend16:11
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eharneyjgriffith: i'm just trying to make sure this doesn't bring manager/service type behavior too far down into the driver itself... so far i think it doesn't but i'm still sorting that out16:12
thingeenot that this late is ronenkat's fault. there have been slow responses back and it's a difficult problem.16:12
jgriffithronenkat: I actually thought  who better to talk to a SolidFire backend than a SoidFire driver :)16:12
jgriffitheharney: ahh... got ya16:12
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* jgriffith has been the blocker on this for sure16:12
ronenkatbut I think that the scheduler-aware pools is actually a good concept that address talk to multi backends16:13
jgriffitheharney: fair point... my position would be as soon as you do dissimilar backends it needs to move16:13
jgriffithronenkat: hmm... ya know that's a really good point16:14
eharneyjgriffith: that sounds about right to me16:14
jgriffithmodel it off of the pools design?16:14
jgriffithronenkat: that's interesting....16:14
ronenkatjgriffit: I really liked how the driver based apparoch works with the pool-aware scheduler16:14
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jgriffithOk.. so maybe we should tackle that16:15
jgriffithronenkat: are you available next week?16:15
ronenkatavailables yes, but remotly16:15
jgriffiththat's almost as good :)16:15
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ronenkatjgriffit: I plan to get the code up by Monday, so we can review it next week16:15
jgriffithmaybe we can work this out as a team next week?16:15
jgriffiththingee: DuncanT- hemna kmartin ^^ ?16:15
hemnathe pool scheduler or replication ?16:16
hemnaor both :P16:16
kmartinboth I hope16:16
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ronenkatjgriffit: I think that the code you put up for driver support, would work nicely with what I put up on the etherpad16:17
DuncanT-Makes sense to beat on it in person, given the timing16:17
jgriffithhemna: combo16:18
jungleboyjYeah, definitely seems like something to talk through in person.16:18
thingeeDuncanT-: seems like no disagreements?! moving on?16:18
jgriffithronenkat: yeah... reading16:18
DuncanT-#topic mid cycle meetup16:19
*** openstack changes topic to "mid cycle meetup (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:19
hemnaI had some feedback for winston-d_ on the pool scheduler that I think closes some holes with it.16:19
thingeescottda: ^16:19
DuncanT-scottda: You're up16:19
scottdaI've not much to say. The etherpad is up to date
* thingee stops being a backseat driver to DuncanT- 16:19
winston-d_ronenkat: mind post the url for etherpad if it's not this one:
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scottdaI just want to make sure there's nothing else that needs to be done from my end re: the physical meetup16:19
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hemnaWhat time is it starting Tuesday?16:20
scottdaI've done nothing for the Virtual meetup details.16:20
DuncanT-~17 of us, nice16:20
rushiagrhi all!16:20
winston-d_hemna: will go through your concerns about pool-aware scheduler after meeting16:20
ronenkatwinston-d_: that is the link16:20
hemnawinston-d_, sweet16:20
kmartinscottda: thanks for helping put this together16:20
scottdano problem16:20
jgriffithyeah scottda thanks a ton16:20
scottdaThanks go to our admin Pam. You'll be able to thank her in person.16:20
jungleboyjhemna: I was wondering that too.16:20
jungleboyjscottda: You guys have admins!?!16:21
scottdastart whenever. I've arranged coffee/snacks in the meeting room.16:21
kmartinscottda: I think we can do a google hangout on the fly16:21
hemnascottda, great thanks16:21
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scottdaHP employees can maybe help escort non-hp from the front Security to the meeting room.16:22
hemnayah will do.16:22
kmartinscottda: sure16:22
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scottdaI'll be onsite early and my phone # is on the etherpad16:22
* jgriffith needs to call his old coworkers at HP FC16:22
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thingeewinston-d_, DuncanT-: since we have time, could talk about the pool aware scheduler?16:23
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jungleboyjhemna: Should we call it 9 am with no other suggestions?16:23
jungleboyjDuncanT-: Nice.16:23
DuncanT-Let's call it 9am...16:23
hemnayah that's what I was thinking16:23
jgriffith+1 for 916:23
hemna9am sounds reasonable16:23
bswartzscottda: you're providing the catering right?16:24
scottdaWe've breakfast every day and lunch Tues...16:24
DuncanT-And coffee16:24
scottdaI could have lunch brought in the other days, but thought people might want to escape the room.16:24
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scottdaAnd I'll work out some beers somewhere Tues night.16:24
winston-d_oh, I wish I could be there, for food's sake. :)16:24
* thingee should make some hipster coffee for folks16:24
hemnafor beer's sake!16:24
winston-d_hemna: ha!16:25
DuncanT-'hipster coffee'.... I'm intreageud16:25
DuncanT-#topic pool scheduler16:25
*** openstack changes topic to "pool scheduler (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:25
winston-d_thingee: sure, I can talk about pool-aware scheduler16:25
hemnahopefully it doesn't have a beard.16:25
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DuncanT-winston-d_: You're up16:25
jungleboyjhemna: Ew.16:26
winston-d_thingee: since you bring this up, what is in your mind you want to talk about pool-aware scheduler?16:26
bswartzwinston-d_: merge it!16:27
winston-d_or anyone else have specific question/concern?16:27
winston-d_bswartz: +2, done!16:27
hemnaso one of the issues I have with it now is that it doesn't seem to handle the case where folks put a pool in a volume type.16:27
thingeewinston-d_: I don't have anything specific. You said talk about it after the meeting. figured now would be fine16:27
winston-d_bswartz: you can show your support by +1, though.16:27
kmartinthingee: I think it's getting good reviews and markstur posted a WIP patch with the 3PAR driver16:27
hemnaour drivers will have a cinder.conf that lists the pools we want to support, but that doesn't prevent someone from putting another pool into a volume type.16:28
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thingeeI honestly haven't reviewed the code since I've been focusing on data/control path in driver for jgriffith and the replication changes. Pool scheduler is next on my list16:28
hemnawe want to be able to report on all the pools for stats.16:28
DuncanT-hemna: Your driver can (and should) just refuse the create16:28
winston-d_hemna: actually, I didn't quite get the part you mentioned, rushiagr said the same.16:28
hemnaI think the drivers need to have another param passed in to get_volume_stats16:28
hemnawe use volume types extensively today for pools16:29
hemnaand we don't require admins to put all of those pools into cinder.conf16:29
hemnaso there could be pools that only exist in volume types16:29
winston-d_hemna: yeah, like DuncanT- said, if someone accidentally put something wrong into vol types, you driver can just refuse to create16:29
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hemnaso we need to have the volume types passed in to get_Volume_Stats, so we can report on any pools that are specified there16:29
hemnathey didn't put anything wrong into the type16:30
hemnathey put a pool into the type, because they want to ensure that when the volume is created it goes to that specific pool16:30
hemnawe do this today.16:30
jgriffithhemna: you'll need to change your driver :)16:30
winston-d_hemna: types are dynamic16:30
rushiagrhemna: are there any other drivers which do it the way you do it?16:30
DuncanT-Supporting legacy, HP only type based pools is not currently in the design16:30
hemnabecause that pool has certain characteristics that they operators charge customers for.16:30
hemnawinston-d_, yes, they are dynamic.  that's the point of them.  :)  And it's also why we use types to specify pools16:31
winston-d_hemna: how about you report all pools the driver (admin) would like to support and let scheduler decide which ones are good?16:31
rushiagrhemna: I 'sort of' understood what your driver is doing, but couldn't understand how it will be affected if that param is not specified in the get_vol_stats16:31
hemnathe scheduler needs to be aware of what's in the type16:31
hemnaor we'll get a request to create a volume on what the scheduler thinks as well as a pool listed in the type, which would be different.16:32
marksturscheduler shouldn't pick a "type pool" for the wrong type or a "non-type pool" for a type16:32
winston-d_hemna: scheduler is, it has a capabilities filter to take care extra specs in vol types16:32
hemnathe host entry at that point would be what the scheduler chose, not what the user chose from the type.16:32
hemnaok, so how do we report the pool if it only exists in the type?16:32
jgriffithhemna: just use scoped keys to differentiate16:32
jgriffithhemna: then you can support both16:32
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hemnaadmins can create types after cinder is up, which would mean that certain pools only live in the type16:33
winston-d_hemna: what do you mean by pool that only exists in the type?16:33
hemnathe driver won't report on pools in types, because it doesn't have access to the types at get_volume_stats time16:33
DuncanT-So you can have a working pool that your driver doesn't know anything at all about? That's nuts!16:33
hemnawinston-d_, 1) admin configures cinder.conf for Pools A-C   2) at a later date creates a type with Pool D16:34
jgriffithhemna: I'm having a hard time understanding what you're getting at....16:34
hemnaDuncanT-, it does and it doesn't.16:34
marksturdriver knows about it, scheduler doesn't know how to associate pools with types (or not)16:34
marksturscheduler says create volume in pool1 w/ type2, type2 says use "premier" pool only.16:34
hemnathe driver only knows about it by the pool only existing in the type.16:34
hemnait's not in cinder.conf16:34
jgriffithbottom line is I can't imagine you can't *fix* it, and holding up everything for the 3par driver doesn't seem *good*16:35
hemnaThis just seems like a hole in the scheduler for us.16:35
DuncanT-hemna: Pools don't have to all be listed in cinder.conf.... the driver can just report them16:35
hemnaas 1) we won't be able to report stats correctly unless we get the list of volume types at get_volume_stats time.16:35
jgriffithhemna: that's a bug16:35
jgriffithhemna: I don't understand why you'd rely on an arbitrary thing like types for stats reporting?16:36
DuncanT-hemna: That's an insane design16:36
hemnait's not.16:36
winston-d_hemna: this approach is broken if there were other types using similar extra specs for their backend16:36
hemnawe aren't going to report every single pool on the 3PAR16:36
hemnabecause we don't want volumes going to every pool on the array.16:37
hemnaonly certain pools16:37
jgriffithhemna: so let me see if I understand this...16:37
hemnawhich are defined in cinder.conf16:37
jgriffithhemna: currently.. you inspect the volume-type and look for a pool spec in it16:37
hemnaadmins can add pools to types that aren't in cinder.conf16:37
winston-d_hemna: say 3par has pool a,b,c, and the driver is able to report pool d if there was a type has extra specs says pool d, right? is this your desgin?16:37
hemnajgriffith, yes16:37
jgriffithhemna: if it's there you report that back in stats????16:37
jgriffiththat makes no sense16:37
hemnajgriffith, currently no,16:37
jgriffithok... good :)16:37
hemnabecause we don't have that information at get_volume_stats time16:37
jgriffithso what do you do16:37
hemnabut we want to16:38
jgriffithno you don't :)16:38
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jgriffithseriously.. you don't16:38
jgriffiththat's bad juju16:38
hemnaI don't understand that16:38
winston-d_hemna: if there is a storwize and netapp in the same cinder deployment, admin create a type trying to associate that type to netapp, with pool d. Would your driver try to find a pool d simply because it looks at all types?16:39
jgriffithYou sould report stats based on what you have and leave it to scheduler16:39
DuncanT-hemna: Just report stats on all pools.... admin needs *somewhere* authoritative to know what he's allowed to put in a type16:39
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jgriffithDuncanT-: +116:39
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hemnawinston-d_, no, we should only get the volume type that has the host associated with our instance.16:39
hemnaDuncanT-, that authoritative knowledge on what pools he can add were added by himself on the 3PAR.16:40
DuncanT-hemna: That's an erm, weak, design16:40
hemnathe admin is the person who created the pools to begin with.16:40
hemnapools don't magically get created on our array.16:40
DuncanT-Just report them all16:40
jgriffithI don't understand16:40
hemnawe don't want volumes getting created on all pools on the array.16:40
winston-d_hemna: if admin accidentally put the wrong pool name into 3par related type, in your design, your driver will keep complaining 'couldn't find the target pool to report'?16:41
hemnawinston-d_, it's not the wrong type.16:41
DuncanT-The admin created the pools, he knows which ones he does or doesn't want types to be able to access, so what is the problem?16:41
hemnahe created a type with a correct pool name16:41
hemnaDuncanT-, correct16:41
hemnalike I explained earlier16:41
hemnahe set Pools A-C in cinder.conf16:41
winston-d_hemna: i am thinking about corner cases, type with wrong pool name16:41
hemnathen later created a type that contains Pool D.16:41
DuncanT-hemna: Report them all and use the type definition to select the one(s) that are desired... that's the point16:42
DuncanT-hemna: No need to selectively report16:42
marksturif conf says pools a,b,c and type says pool d -- even if we report stats for all 4 pools, we still need the scheduler to pick pool d for the type and a|b|c if not the type16:42
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hemnamarkstur, correct, so the host entry is acurate16:42
winston-d_markstur: scheduler is already able to do that16:42
winston-d_markstur: as long as your driver reports pool d16:42
marksturscheduler picks pool a when type says it needs pool d16:43
jgriffithhemna: not sure what the problem is... stats are stats and should be reported16:43
hemnawinston-d_, but we don't report pool d, because it only lives in the type.16:43
hemnait's not in cinder.conf16:43
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jgriffithtypes are unknown at init and periodic reporting intervals16:43
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jgriffithhemna: maybe you should write up and diagram in an etherpad16:43
jgriffithand share with everyone16:43
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hemnathere is a big disconnect here16:43
jgriffithsince we can't seem to figure out exactly what you're getting at16:43
hemnaand it may very well be my own fault.16:43
winston-d_hemna: that's the issue, i think you should report pool d, regardless what is in cinder.conf.16:44
jgriffithhemna: yeah... communication is hard on IRC sometimes16:44
DuncanT-hemna: It exists on the array, report it. Stop hiding it until there's a type pointing at it.16:44
* jgriffith likes white boards16:44
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hemnawinston-d_, so say we report every pool on the array16:44
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winston-d_jgriffith: +116:44
jgriffithDuncanT-: I'd have to agree with you there16:44
hemnabut our cinder.conf only lists a subset of those.  how does the scheduler know not to pick pools outside of our desired list ?16:44
jgriffithDuncanT-: or at least have specific "OpenStack" related things you always report16:45
jgriffithno games16:45
hemnawe aren't trying to hide anything16:45
hemnait's not about hiding things or games16:45
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jgriffithhemna: then only report those spec'd in cinder.conf16:45
jgriffithand if you don't work, you don't work16:45
DuncanT-hemna: Can this wait until Tuesday and a whiteboard16:45
hemnait about having a selected list of pools we want to use for the driver.   we dont' want to use every pool on the array.16:45
jgriffithDuncanT-: good idea16:46
winston-d_hemna: if you want to use cinder.conf to enforce a list of supported pools, fine, don't report pool d, and scheduler won't put any volume to pool d16:46
jgriffithwinston-d_: +116:46
hemnawinston-d_, ok and when pool D is in a volume type ?16:46
jgriffithwinston-d_: I'm so confused... I don't see what the issue is here16:46
jgriffithhemna: the scheduler won't send it to your backend if you don't report it in stats16:46
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DuncanT-hemna: having pools magically appear once a type references them is not a sensible design16:46
hemnaok, that's definitely a problem then.16:46
winston-d_hemna: any volume created with that type will be in 'error' state 'cos 'No Valid Host can be found'.16:46
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jgriffithhemna: then fix it16:47
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hemnaok lets talk about this next week16:47
hemnaI'm not getting through.16:47
bswartzperhaps we will get some good examples of how to do pools after the funtionality is implemented in several drivers16:47
winston-d_hemna: if you want to use pool d, put it into cinder.conf and restart c-vol, done16:47
bswartzand the confusion will go away16:47
bswartzif any real issues remain, we can fix them16:47
winston-d_bswartz: i'm looking at you16:47
hemnathen that completely negates the idea of volume types for us.16:48
winston-d_bswartz: when will netapp driver be ready for pool scheduler? :)16:48
hemnawe've always used volume types to specify the pool.16:48
marksturwinston-d: scheduler would still pick 'd' for other types and sometimes pick a|b|c for the type that requires 'd'16:48
bswartzwinston-d_: very soon16:48
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winston-d_hemna: you still do, don't you?16:48
marksturNow if our pool-aware driver uses the type's pool, then it won't match the one the scheduler said to use16:49
winston-d_markstur: not, scheduler will not, it doesn't know about pool d, simply 'cos your driver deson't report pool d16:49
jgriffithdrivers in Cinder are not a static thing16:49
jgriffiththey need maintenance and they change over time16:49
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jgriffithwe've done this in the past for MBE, QoS etc16:50
marksturso scheduler picks 'b' which doesn't apply to the type.  how do we get it into the type's pool?16:50
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DuncanT-markstur: A type is not the right place to announce the existance of a pool16:50
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DuncanT-markstu: Taht is the tail wagging the dog16:50
jgriffithlet's wrap this up for today16:50
winston-d_markstur: if the type specifically says, 'i need pool d', scheduler won't put any volume with this type to pool a|b|c.16:51
jgriffithmaybe hemna can explain next week and we can help fix it :)16:51
marksturDuncanT-, OK the pool should be in the stats, but the scheduler needs to know which volume types are allowed to use which pools16:51
hemnaDuncanT-, that's doesn't work for 3PAR.   we use types to specify a pool, because that pool has certain characteristics the admins want to charge for, or the user wants because of their application.16:51
winston-d_DuncanT-: +1 for type is not the right place to anounce pools.16:51
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hemnaok guys.  sorry to suck up the meeting time.16:51
hemnamoving on.16:51
markstursomeone had to fill in the meeting time16:51
DuncanT-Nothing else on the agenda, or I'd have called time a while ago, don't worry16:52
winston-d_hemna, markstur: let's take it to cinder channel16:52
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DuncanT-Any other business? Speak now or forever....16:52
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"16:52
openstackMeeting ended Wed Aug  6 16:52:57 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)16:52
openstackMinutes (text):
DuncanT-Cheers all16:53
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tjoneshi sorry17:01
tjonesim lage17:01
tjones#startmeeting vmwareapi17:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Aug  6 17:01:29 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is tjones. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: vmwareapi)"17:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'vmwareapi'17:01
tjonesanyone here today?17:02
* mdbooth waves17:02
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tjoneshey guys - so it's all about reviews and bug fixing i think for us.17:02
tjonesit looks to me that the only BP we will get in juno are spawn refactor, oslo.vmware, and v3 diags.  anyone think anything different? - like spbm and vsan??17:03
mdboothtjones: I don't see it happening17:04
garyktjones: we are working on spbm and ephemeral - all have code posted17:04
vuilvsan bp was approved too I thought, but with all the logjam of patches still needed reviews, yeah.17:04
tjonesspbm is set to "good progres" - garyk what do you think?17:04
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garyktjones: code was completed about 8 months ago. we just need to rebase - i will do that tomorrow17:05
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garykyesterday we had the oslo.vmware updated so the spbm code can now be used17:05
garykit is all above tje oslo.vmware integration patch17:05
tjonesgaryk:  im spacing - where is ephemeral one ??  (just got back from vacation and still fuzzy)17:05
garykwhich may land in 202117:05
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vuilthe few patches using oslo.vmware to provide streamOptimized/vsan support are being updated right now as well.17:06
mdboothgaryk: Incidentally, I spent the afternoon looking at bdm17:06
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mdboothAnd I agree with you17:06
mdboothabout ephemeral, that is17:07
garykah, that is is only relevant to libvirt?17:07
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mdboothNo, it's definitely relevant to us17:07
mdboothHowever, there's no need for it to be in this patch17:07
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vuil*missing context re bdm*17:07
mdboothblock device mapping17:07
garykah, ok. then next stuff i'll add in a patch after that17:07
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mdboothgaryk: See my big comment in spawn() about the driver behaviour being broken wrt bdm?17:08
mdboothI think it needs to be fixed along with that17:08
mdboothProbably quite an involved patch17:08
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garykmdbooth: i think that the bdm support is broken in general17:08
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* mdbooth would be happy to write it, though17:08
garykbut that is for another discussion -17:08
mdboothgaryk: +1 :)17:09
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tjonesok so lets go through the BP 1 by 1 (we can revisit bdm later on)17:09
vuilI noted the same in my earlier phase 3 stuff too, so yeah this should be one of the first things to deal with after the refactor17:09
tjoneshere's spawn17:09
garykafter we chatted there was someone who wrote on irc that he did not manage to get it working in I…17:09
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mdboothtjones: That's currently blocked on minesweeper17:10
mdboothVui and I chatted just before this meeting about the phase 3 stuff17:10
tjonesdown again?17:10
dansmithtjones: hasn't it been down for a couple weeks now? or is it just really spotty?17:11
mdboothgaryk had a handle on it, I believe17:11
tjonesis phase 3 in that list?  im losing track of17:11
dansmithwe've been asking about minesweeper status in -nova for at least two weeks17:11
garykdansmith: no, it has been up. just the last week. just a few problems last 2 days17:11
tjonesdansmith: spotty.  i literaly got back from vacation just before this meeting.  i'll get an update after17:11
mdboothtjones: Yes. Basically all Vui's patches are phase 3.17:11
dansmithgaryk: hmm, okay I've recheck-vmware'd a few things and never get responses17:11
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garykdansmith: that is due to the fact that the queue is very long due to eh fact it was down for a while17:12
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dansmithokay, I wish we could see the queue so we'd know, but... okay17:12
vuilMatt had some nice suggestions, I will be taking on those and posting an update to the phase 3 chain of patches.17:12
garykit was averaging about 14 patches a day due to infra issues17:12
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mdboothI understand it's on internal infrastructure, though17:13
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tjonesok im assuming oslo.vmware also blocked on minesweeper17:13
vuiland reviews obv17:14
garyktjones: all of those patches had +1's then we need to rebase and it was at a time when ms was down. so back to sqaure 1.17:14
dansmithtjones: we talked last week about not approving any without them17:14
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dansmiththem == votes17:14
tjonesyes - i agree we need minesweeper runs17:14
dansmithI've been trying to come back to patches I've -2d regularly to check for minesweeper votes17:15
dansmithI definitely don't want to be the guy that -2s for that and then holds us up after MS shows up :)17:15
garykdansmith: it is understaood. rules are rules17:15
tjonesok here's the complete list of our stuff out for review17:16
garykwe just need to et our act together with minesweeper17:16
mdboothHmm, I have an actual -1 from dansmith17:16
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garykbut when it is up it would be nice if the patches could get some extra eyes17:16
dansmithmdbooth: frame it!17:16
mdboothIn phase 2 spawn refactor17:16
tjoneswe still need our team to be reviewing like mad and so when MS comes back we are ready17:16
vuil@dansmith: on related note even when minesweeper passes, we have seen −1 on xenserver CI quite a bit despite rechecks, does that −1 factor into the filtering for reviewable things ?17:16
mdboothdansmith: I'm honoured :)17:16
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dansmithvuil: not to me17:16
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* mdbooth can address that tomorrow17:16
dansmithvuil: everyone gets -1s from xen ci right now :)17:16
garykjust not that ms does not run on patches in the test directory17:17
dansmithvuil: they're working hard on that too17:17
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garykso a patch like should not be blopcked17:17
vuilah got it17:17
dansmithgaryk: yeah, that makes sense to me17:17
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tjonesanything else on BP ?17:18
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tjonesok lets talk about bugs17:19
tjones#topic bugs17:19
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*** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: vmwareapi)"17:19
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tjoneswe have 5917:19
tjonesa number that is not going down17:20
tjoneswe have a number of these in new17:20
tjonesor triaged state17:20
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garyktjones: a lot of them have been triaged and a lot are in progress and a lot have been completed.17:21
garykwe need to do a cleanup17:21
tjonesi filtered out completed17:21
garyksome are also very concerning - basically the multi cluster stuff break a lot of things17:21
tjonesthese are only new, inporgress, traged, and confirmed17:21
garyki am in favor of pushsing rado's patch which drops the support as we discussed at the summit17:21
tjonesHP raised a lot of concerns about that as i recall17:22
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mdboothThe principal concern was memory usage on vsphere, right?17:23
garykyeah, i asked that they write to the list so that we can get some discussion going about it and there was nothing17:23
mdboothI saw that17:23
garykthat was one - but it is something that can be addressed17:23
tjonesi thought they posted something17:23
garykmy main concern is that each compute node has its own cache dir - that is very costly17:24
tjonesi thought it was spinning up a n-compute for each cluster they did not like and the image cachce17:24
mdboothSo, I happened to read a tripleo thing about deploying multiple novas per node earlier17:24
garyktjones: i do not recall seeing anything. if someone did can you please forward the mail message to me17:24
mdboothThat would solve a provisioning issue, but not the memory usage thing17:24
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mdboothgaryk: I think that's something we're going to have to live with until we get inter-node locking17:25
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tjonesi  think the biggest issue is what to do with existing customers that have deployed the current way.  what is the upgrade path?17:26
mdboothgaryk: Random thought: how likely is the backing store to do de-duplication?17:26
garyktjones: thanks17:26
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vuil@mdbooth storage-vendor specific17:27
mdboothRight, but is it common?17:27
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garykmdbooth: soryy i do not understand17:27
vuil*not entirely sure*17:27
mdboothWould suck to have to recommend it, for sure17:28
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mdboothtjones: Is anybody looking at that, btw?17:29
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tjonesmdbooth: looking at??17:30
mdboothtjones: yeah17:30
tjonesno that i am aware of17:30
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tjonesi tihink we have to tackle that before we do this change though17:30
mdboothIs anybody currently motivated to do it?17:31
vuilso the path we are talking about is provide inter-node locking then make image caching more efficient17:31
tjonesi dont see any way around saying "you have to reconfgure your n-compute"17:31
vuilbefore taking out multi-cluster?17:32
mdboothtjones: Right. Presumably also db hacking.17:32
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mdboothMuch nastiness.17:32
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garykmdbooth: there is no need for db hacking17:32
garykthere is a patch for the esx migration17:32
garykan external utility17:32
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tjonesso the issues with this are 1. soap takes too much memory / connection (could be solved with pyvmomi) 2.  image cache duplication 3.  upgrade path.17:34
garykbtw there is also a pacth for the actual esx deprecation17:34
mdboothtjones: I don't see how pyvmomi would solve 117:34
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tjonesdoesn't is use a different transport?17:34
tjonesnot soap17:34
mdboothIf it can, then we can presumably solve it without pyvmomi17:34
mdboothDon't think so17:34
vuilno still soap, but on a more lightweight stack17:35
mdboothMore lightweight on the client side, no difference to the server17:35
vuilas in we may save some memory usage by taking out suds17:35
vuil*remains to be seen*17:35
mdboothOur problem is on the server, though, iiuc17:35
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vuilhp was concerned about multiple computes each taking up lots of resources.17:36
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garykmy concerns of the multi cluster support are edge cases - for example the rezie issue17:36
mdboothvuil: That was resources on vcenter, though, right?17:36
vuilI don't think server impact is going to be much17:36
tjonesi thought they were concerned on the client side - running multiple n-compute17:36
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* mdbooth might have misunderstood this17:36
vuilno actual python n-cpu processes taking up memory.17:36
tjonesyeah that is what i thought17:37
dansmithI thought I heard somethign about server side too17:37
dansmithbecause each connection to vcenter comes with a lot of overhead17:37
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vuilin terms of load on VC it is pretty much the same whether it comes from one ncpu managing N clusters or N ncpu managing one each17:37
mdbooth~140MB in the driver17:37
mdboothGot it17:37
dansmithso one compute using one connection for lots of machines17:37
mdboothOk, that's way more manageable17:37
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vuil@dansmith, addition of a couple more connections should not be too big of a deal.17:38
dansmithvuil: okay17:38
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mdboothSo, tripleo were talking about deploying multiple novas per server in separate containers17:39
tjoneseven if we can decrease the client side memory load we still have the duplcate cache and upgrade.  with duplicate cache we could solve with using shared datastore for glance - right?17:39
mdboothAnd in the grand scheme of thinks, anybody deploying 32 VMware clusters worth of openstack isn't going to notice the cost of 4GB of RAM17:40
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mdboothAlthough it's inelegant to waste it, it's probably not a huge deal17:40
vuilmdbooth: my thoughts as well.17:41
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mdboothDuplicate cache:17:42
mdboothOnly an issue for clusters sharing datastores17:42
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mdboothOtherwise the cache would be duplicated anyway17:43
tjoneswe need to get to a place where we can implement this change without screwing HPs existing customers….17:43
garyktjones: yes, they are in production and this would break a installtion17:44
dansmithsounds like maybe we should put something into the juno release notes that such an arrangement is deprecated17:45
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dansmithto give time and notice so we can get something into kilo?17:45
tjonesi was just typing that very thing17:45
tjoneswe should deprecate thsi to give them some time17:45
dansmithis there a config variable that would go away that we can also document as deprecated?17:45
dansmithand, despite it's limited usefulness, we should also log.warning("this is going away soon") if they have that configured17:46
dansmithper usual protocol17:46
garykno, there is no specific config var17:46
mdboothThe one which selects clusters, presumably17:46
tjonesyeah - i think it's a list17:46
garykwe can identify if there is more than one cluster configured17:46
dansmithso, iirc, the patch changed it from a list to a string, which we can't do anyway17:46
garykbut i think that we should address the issue on the list with the guys from hp17:46
mdbooth        self._cluster_names = CONF.vmware.cluster_name17:47
dansmithso: 1. document in release notes, 2. log.warning() if len(list)>1 ?17:47
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mdboothSo it's still going to be called 'cluster_name', presumably17:47
mdboothExcept it's no longer going to accept a list17:47
mdboothThat's ugly17:47
dansmithmdbooth: yeah, that was my complaint, IIRC17:47
garyki think that this needs more discussion prior to us doing a deprecation warning17:48
tjoneswe really should reply back on that thread17:48
dansmithgaryk: IMHO, we mark as deprecated to force the conversation, nothing says we *have* to yank it in kilo if not ready17:48
garykan existing customer will also need an upgrade patch for cached images.17:48
tjonesto keep kiran in the loop - this time is not very good for him17:48
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garykdansmith: i think that is not a good approach17:49
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garykwhy force something until we have thought it out properly17:49
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dansmithgaryk: well, because I feel like we've decided that it's coming out, we just have to figure out how it's going to look when it's out17:49
dansmithgaryk: and because if we're going to deprecate, starting the timer limits when we can actually remove it17:50
garykno, we have not decided17:50
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garyka few people have but the general community has some issues with this17:50
dansmithwe agreed at summit, no?17:50
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garykat the summit we discussed it in a small room. after the summit people started to raise issues17:50
garykare we not allowed to change things after problems and issues are raised?17:51
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garykis that going to build a healthy community discussion?17:51
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dansmithsure, we can.. I didn't think any of the discussion here was considering the option of not doing it17:51
dansmithbut that's fine, see how the ML thread goes17:51
garyksome people who work on the driver were not able to attend the summit and only afterthey were awair of discussion did they reiase thier issues17:51
garykand i think that they have come with some valid arguments17:52
dansmithbut we should make sure to revisit before too late in juno, merely for the deprecation timer ... timing :)17:52
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garykto be honest i am kicking myself for not having found the problems when we originally added the feature, but we all approved that17:52
tjonesok the way we got to this discussion was because we were talking about bugs17:52
garyki will follow up on this list tomorrow about this17:52
tjonesof the 59 there are 20 that are not owned by anyone and some are high prio17:53
tjonesgaryk thanks for following up17:53
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tjonesso - 6 minutes left.  please do reviews, fix bugs, etc.17:54
tjones#topic open discussion17:54
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: vmwareapi)"17:54
tjonesanything else?17:54
garyktjones: i honestly do not like the multi cluster support and would be happy to see it dropped, but we need to find something that works :)17:54
tjonesgaryk: i don't disagree at all17:55
mdboothtjones: Any chance of getting more hardware for minesweeper?17:55
tjonesmdbooth: it is on order (and has been for a while).  it will get here in sept17:55
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tjonesit's a slllllooooowwwww process17:56
* mdbooth has been there17:56
garykmdbooth: my understanding is that there is a request for more hardware17:56
garykand we all know how long that can take17:56
tjonesdansmith: im going to see if we can figure out how to get external access to the minesweeper status and queue17:56
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dansmithtjones: just scraping it and POSTing to an external site would be enough17:56
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dansmithtjones: just so we have some indication on whether we should ping you, or wait, or... :)17:56
tjonesyes that is what i am thinking - put it on the same place as my bug list17:57
tjonesif only i could get a free RAX vm....17:57
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tjonesok i have nothing else - anyone??17:58
mdboothtjones: Email it somewhere?17:58
dansmithheaven forbid, the multi-billion dollar company pay $12/mo for hosting :)17:58
mdboothdansmith: Do you know how much the lawyers to approve $12/mo hosting cost?17:58
tjonesit's $14 :-D17:58
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dansmithtjones: $5 would be plenty for this :P17:59
tjonesnice!  cheaper that AWS17:59
dansmithmdbooth: I used to work for IBM, I know all about this :)17:59
mdboothWe're all the same :)18:00
tjonesok i think we are done - thanks folks!18:00
garykhave a good one18:00
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mdbooth#endmeeting ?18:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"18:01
openstackMeeting ended Wed Aug  6 18:01:53 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:01
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notmynameswift team meeting time19:00
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notmyname#startmeeting swift19:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Aug  6 19:01:08 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'swift'19:01
notmynamehello everyone19:01
notmynamewho's here for the swift meeting19:01
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notmynameagenda is at as normal19:02
notmynameglad to see you all here19:02
notmynamea few important things to talk about, I think19:02
notmynamefirst up, some general housekeeping19:02
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notmyname#topic general housekeeping19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "general housekeeping (Meeting topic: swift)"19:02
notmynametwo things19:02
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notmynamefirst, peluse is now in swift core.19:02
cutforthcongrats Paul19:03
tdasilvanice! congrats!19:03
portantedon't mess wit d'man!19:03
acolespeluse: congrats19:03
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* peluse needs a tissue19:03
notmynameand second up, the swift hackathon19:03
notmynamepeluse: heh19:03
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notmynamenext week the hackathon invites will be public19:03
notmynameit will be in boston during the bridge week between spet-and oct19:04
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notmynameseptember and october19:04
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notmynamespace is pretty limited, I'm told, so register soon :-)19:04
notmynamethat's coming next wednesday19:04
notmynameand thanks to tdasilva for coordinating that from the red hat side :-)19:05
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notmynamea could of other things19:05
notmyname(going out of order on the agenda)19:05
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notmynameI'm hoping for a swift release in a few weeks (end of august timeframe)19:06
notmynameI'll be looking at what's landed and what's outstanding to see when the best time is19:06
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notmynamethis should give us time for another at the end of the openstack cycle19:06
notmynameso be aware that's on the horizon19:06
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notmynameand, I'd like to give a little update on the EC mini-hackathon we had at box the past couple of days19:07
notmynameit was really productive19:07
notmynamewe got a lot of the remaining work sketched out19:07
notmynamethe trello board is up to date with what needs to be done19:08
notmynamefrankly, there's a lot of work, but nothing that is particularly scary19:08
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notmynameplease jump in and pick up tasks from there to work on19:08
notmynamethe swift spec for the erasure coding work is at
notmynamethat has a lot of the detail19:08
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pelusesidenote:  if you grab a task please make yourself a card member, if you're just intersted in tracking a task plase don't add yourself (but you can register for udpates)19:09
notmynameand importantly, the trello stories have a number on them that corresponds to the spec sections19:09
notmynameany questions on the EC work?19:09
notmynametushar (tsg) has some patches up on the ec branch that are pretty much ready to go19:10
notmynamewe did some code review and he made a coupld of improvements19:10
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notmynamebut please look at them to see some of the read and write patch for ec19:10
notmynameand please feel free to ask myself or peluse about the current status of stuff at any time19:11
kota_Can I join Performance Analysis card on Trillo for erasure code?19:11
kota_I've started pyeclib benchmark...19:11
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pelusekota:  just use the 'register' button inthe card to indicate interest or if you have a task you want to take that's specific you can add a new card, or add yourself to the card and make an activity note as to what scope you are looking at19:12
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kota_peluse: Ok, thanks.19:12
peluseexample:  feel free to add a specific task to benchmakr pyeclin :)19:12
cschwede_i think mjseger might be interested in that (performance analysis) too, maybe i should ping him…19:12
notmynamecschwede_: mjseger_ just joined :-)19:12
peluseyup, and multiple folks can and should benchmark too so multiple members is great (on the card)19:13
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cschwede_hehe, nice :)19:13
pelusejust trying to keep 'members' limited to people that are actively working so we know where things are in need of more resournces is all...19:13
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notmynameif someone finds that they aren't a member of the board, let me know and I'll add you19:13
notmynamepeluse: +119:13
notmynameany other questions about EC before we move on?19:14
notmynameok. /me takes deep breath19:15
notmyname#topic swift TC gap analysis19:15
*** openstack changes topic to "swift TC gap analysis (Meeting topic: swift)"19:15
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notmynameok, now for the "fun" one19:16
notmynameup front, I want to say that this is mostly a report of what's happenign19:16
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notmynamehere's the backstory:19:16
notmynameover the years, the TC has created a set of rules for project joining as incubated and then moving to integrated projects within openstack19:16
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zaitcevtypical and inevitable19:17
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notmynamenow that there is a set of rules, they are going to all the existing projects and seeing how these existing projects line up with the rules19:17
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notmynamethis "gap analysis" then has been going on with all of the projects, and swift's turn during the TC meeting was yesterday19:18
torgomatic"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson19:18
notmynamethe etherpad with the rules is at
portantetorgomatic: well quoted19:18
notmynameand the meeting logs are at
torgomaticthank you19:18
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notmynamehere's the summary:19:18
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notmynametwo major "gaps" were identified19:18
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notmynameimportantly, gaps is in quotes, because they may or may not be19:19
portantetorgomatic: I also think you have rightly identified a major difference in swift vs the rest of openstack: on data path vs in control path19:19
notmynameso, differences19:19
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notmynamethese are our use of oslo libraries and our versioning/releases19:19
portantethat one fact does not appear to be considered by folks from that TC meeting19:19
notmynamehere's what happens next:19:19
notmynamewe've known than there are differences, but now we either need to get official approval that the differences are or or we need to change to match the rest of openstack19:20
notmynameduring the next weeks or months, this "conversation" will be had19:20
notmynameeither online before the summit or in person in paris19:21
notmynameif we choose to change something, then that task will be tracked by the TC19:21
notmynameand so we, as a community, need to choose what we do. importantly, if we do not want to change, we must convince the TC that the benefits of us being different are better than conformity with other openstack projects19:22
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notmynameI have already started an email thread with all the core devs, and this is something that will be an ongoing discussing19:22
notmynameand I would like all of your input and help. either way you feel ont he matter19:22
notmynameok, that's my intro to it. what questions do you have? :-)19:23
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portantewhat is the forum for consolidating all the input from this community?19:23
portanteyou have a core devs email, should we have an etherpad that enumerates the ideas?19:24
notmynameportante: there isn't one yet. what would you prefer to use? etherpad? wiki?19:24
mattoliverau+1 to etherpad19:24
portanteI'd like to invite the TC members to a discussion with the core devs of swift19:24
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notmynameportante: yes. but that would probably be better in person, IMO19:25
cschwede_portante: irl?19:25
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portantedoes it have to be decided by k-summit in Paris?19:25
portanteIt seems like they want a decision sooner or later, but is there a deadline for deciding?19:26
notmynameportante: the scope of the changes are such that I expect any changes to be made during the k cycle19:26
notmynameno official deadline now19:26
notmynameie I don't expect changes to be made in the juno cycle19:26
portantenotmyname: I think we need to do changes over multiple releases, I don't think it is reasonable to expect all changes in one cycle19:26
portantenot that I am suggesting we make any changes, just that the nature of production use would require that19:27
notmynameportante: of course. I expect that decisions over what, if anything, should be changed will be made by the end of the paris summit. I don't expect changes to be implemented until after that19:27
portantefurther, I believe that we should have this discussion with the big production users, and get their feedback19:27
portanteit is not clear to me that this kind of change should only be decided by the devs19:28
* notmyname is debating what to say in a public, logged forum ;-)19:28
* torgomatic is not a fan of making a change merely for the sake of conformity19:28
torgomaticif I have to decide between forcing operators to do a bunch of work vs. having some conditionals in infra's scripts, I'm going with the operators19:29
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portantewe have a chance to help educate the larger openstack community about what openstack swift really is19:29
portantetorgomatic: agreed, but let's see if we can't get that in an illustrated form ...19:29
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torgomaticportante: indeed19:30
portantewe need to educate the TC about data plane APIs, they seem to be stuck on control plane APIs only19:30
notmynameI think it's safe to say that if we present an argument against conformity, we will have a lot of work to do as a group that includes education and input from deployers19:30
notmynameportante: note that on a mailing list thread this week, some have been advocating that openstack is indeed a provisioning layer for other technology19:31
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portantenotmyname: I am not sure that taking up conformity as the root of this is accurate; it would communicate that swift is just like the other projects, and it is not19:31
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notmynameportante: yes, I think that's a good and right perspective19:32
notmynamehere's what I want to do next19:32
notmynameI want to continue to hammer out some semblance of a "position" with the core devs over the next week or two19:32
notmynameand I want to solicit input from the wider community (starting here today!)19:33
notmynameand then, after we have some sort of internal plan, I want to begin engaging, face-to-face if possible, with the TC19:33
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notmynamebut to be honest, the last 24 hours haven't been so good for me, and so I know I'm not mentally or emotionally ready to make decisions one way or the other19:34
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zaitcevUntil Sam's e-mail I didn't realize just how off-kilter Oslo has become.19:34
notmynamefor the record, sam (torgomatic) reference the mailing list post about up to 80% degredation when using oslo.messaging with swift19:35
zaitcevVersion seems like a non-issue to me, semantic-schemantic.19:35
torgomaticIt's possible that I'm missing something, but if I'm right, using oslo.config would be a major regression in terms of functionality available to deployers19:35
notmynametorgomatic: I think the same can be said for oslo logging too19:36
portanteto me, the release is a non-issue, just create community releases via github or something, no need to involve openstack mechanism19:36
peluseportante: +119:36
torgomaticmost likely; python's logging framework has been hammered on by lots of folks for a long time... and then there's oslo.logging19:36
notmynamethat's an interesting though19:36
zaitcevI only dealt with Olso through the Guru Meditation initiative, which seemed like taking an excellent idea and applying a dozen of opaque layers of useless abstractions, then not implementing basics that Swift needed.19:36
notmynametorgomatic: to be fair, both use python's logging module. just we use a syslog handler and they don't19:36
torgomaticnotmyname: thanks; I did not know that19:37
clarkbnotmyname: it can use the syslog handler too19:37
notmynamebut there's is "configurable"19:37
notmynameclarkb: that's good to know too. thanks19:37
* torgomatic retracts the comment about oslo.logging19:37
notmynameclarkb: it's still incubated oslo, though, right?19:37
notmynameclarkb: so therefore copy/paste19:37
clarkbnotmyname: yes I think so19:38
notmynameclarkb: ok, thanks19:38
cschwede_to me the use of oslo.config and the possibility of breaking all existing middlewares (inside and outside of swift) looks really frightening19:38
cschwede_that will require a lot of work, not only from the current swift developers19:39
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cschwede_and operators might delay upgrading of swift, because of lacking resources to update their custom middlewares19:40
notmynamelet's continue to debate it in email, and I'll set up an etherpad for continued discussion19:40
notmynamedoes that sound good?19:40
cschwede_notmyname: +119:40
notmynamethanks, everyone.19:41
acolesnotmyname: lets be careful to treat the versioning and oslo issues separately, i'm seeing less resistance to the former19:41
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notmynameacoles: correct. they are differnt issues and it's not a black/white choice of all or nothing19:41
notmynamenow, normally we cover patches in the meeting, but to be honest the gap analysis stuff has kinda taken it all out of me for today. I'd be happy if someone wanted to cover some stuff in #openstack-swift, but would anyone object to ending the meeting now?19:42
pelusecool by me19:43
torgomaticno problems here19:43
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notmynamethanks everyone for attending and for your work in swift.19:43
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"19:43
openstackMeeting ended Wed Aug  6 19:43:36 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)19:43
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openstackMinutes (text):
mattoliveraunotmyname: thanks19:43
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