Tuesday, 2014-08-19

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yamahata#startmeeting servicevm-device-manager05:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 19 05:00:53 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.05:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.05:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager'05:00
yamahata#topic Announcement05:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcement (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)"05:01
yamahataI have no special announcement today05:01
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yamahataDoes anyone have any?05:01
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bmelandeHi all. Nothing from me. At the moment busy getting stuff done for J3.05:02
yamahatabmelande: hi05:03
s3wongNeutron feature freeze is this Thursday05:03
yamahataSure. it's busy now.05:03
yamahata#open discussion05:03
yamahataFor now I'm addressing config agent and plugging drivers.05:03
yamahataThis week, I'll upload WIP code to github05:03
yamahataI think patch review is urgent issue?05:04
bmelandeWhich patch?05:04
yamahatabmelande: yours and Karthik05:05
bmelandeAha. :-)05:05
yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101002/05:05
yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102336/05:05
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yamahataI posted a simplification patch for csr1kv. Does it make sense?05:06
yamahata#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115157/ csr1kv simplification05:06
yamahatanatarajk: hi05:06
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yamahatabmelande: or do you have any plan to use locally created file by hosting device driver?05:07
bmelandeyamahata: Yes, it was good. Thanks. The configdrive change you pointed out is also useful. Has adopted that. Working on the 3rd party CI. That's why no new upload yet.05:07
yamahatabmelande: Great, then I'll abandon mine.05:08
bmelandeyamahata: No, I'm happy to not have to generate a file and later remove it. Just a hazzle.05:08
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yamahatabmelande: okay05:08
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yamahatabmelande: I have another question. Is complementary_id necessary? Doesn't id work?05:09
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yamahatabmelande: Maybe a small patch to show the idea would help.05:12
bmelandeyamahata: I had to add that to ensure cleaning up the ports/networks I create is alwoays possible to remove.05:13
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yamahatabmelande: Oh, I'll check it from that point of view.05:13
bmelandeyamahata: you kind of already have it05:14
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yamahatamaybe, I'll try to check it by creating a patch05:14
bmelandeyahamata: because you had this attribute to hold the uuid of the Nova VM05:15
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yamahataI'm fine with keeping complementary_id in table05:16
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bmelandeyamahata: Actually, I like the name you have used better. :-)05:17
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yamahataanything else to discuss?05:19
bmelandebmelande: The problem I had was that I set the id of the hosting device to the Nova VM's uuid. But if spawning fails when Nova has been given the instruction to spin up VM, *but* before the ports for it have been marked with that uuid, I had no good way of identifying theose ports for a later clean up.05:19
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yamahatabmelande: I see. It's error recovery path. I totally forgot it as I've wanted to have something working first.05:20
bmelandeyamahata: Sorry, last was for you. That was the reasoning why I added it. But as said, afaik, you store the Nova uuid in a separate attribute and not in the hosting device id so you pretty miuch have the complementeary id already.05:20
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yamahataI understood its background.05:21
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yamahatathanks for the explanation05:22
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yamahatanatarajk: s3wong do you have any topics?05:23
s3wongyamahata: no, all good for me05:24
natarajkhave been busy with our CI setup to run all the required tests05:24
natarajkhopefully i can contribute more from next week05:24
bmelandenatarajk: You too. :-)05:24
yamahatanatarajk: No problem. good luck for your CI05:24
yamahataso seems no more topics.05:25
yamahatathank you every one. see you next week.05:25
bmelandeThanks. Bye05:25
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*** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645."05:25
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 19 05:25:40 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)05:25
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-19-05.00.html05:25
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-19-05.00.txt05:25
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-08-19-05.00.log.html05:25
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sc68calsorry i'm a tad late14:05
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sc68cal#startmeeting neutron_ipv614:06
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 19 14:06:18 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:06
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:06
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)"14:06
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6'14:06
sc68calxuhanp: hello!14:06
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sc68calxuhanp: I saw the comments on your review, regarding the NEC CI system14:08
xuhanpsc68cal, yep. got some comments about dnsmasq version check14:09
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xuhanpand seems the nec CI has been fixed already:  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/106299/14:10
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sc68calagree - looks like we're ready to merge14:11
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HenryGThe complaint was that Ubuntu 12.04 has some old version of dnsmasq. But can't that be fixed with apt-get install update?14:11
HenryGMaybe I misunderstand operations issues.14:12
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sc68calMost likely the cloud-archive will need to have a newer version of dnsmasq14:12
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sc68calwe deploy on 12.04 and utilize14:13
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HenryGIsn't zigo the person to help us out there?14:14
zigoHow may I help? :)14:14
zigoWith dnsmasq?14:14
HenryGzigo: hi14:15
sc68calno, zigo packages for debian I believe14:15
sc68calI did forward him the e-mail as a heads up14:15
amotokihi, according to the log, it seems you are talking about dnsmasq versoin.14:15
zigoIt's there already.14:15
HenryGamotoki: yes14:15
xuhanpamotoki, thanks for removing your -1 and fixing the Nec CI14:16
zigoThen there's someone working on an official Debian Wheezy backport (as per a debian-backport@lists.debian.org post).14:16
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zigoBut I believe you need it for Ubuntu 12.04 ?14:16
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zigoOr for what?14:16
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zigoFYI, I do Debian stuff, I have no power to do anything on cloud-archive ...14:17
HenryGsorry zigo :(14:17
amotokiI think Ubuntu Cloud Archive does not support Juno on 12.04.14:17
zigoamotoki: That is correct. And the plan is to *not* support it. Same for my Juno packages btw.14:18
zigoBoth Canonical guys and myself did some Precise packages because of customers needs, but at some point, they are required to upgrade to 14.04.14:18
sc68calamotoki: I believe you are correct. 12.04 is going to stay on Icehouse I think.14:18
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zigoIt's actually a pain to do all the backporting work (not only Python modules, but also all stuff like kernel, OVS, etc.).14:19
sc68calguess everyone who wants OpenStack and ipv6 will have to upgrade to 14.04 too :(14:19
zigosc68cal: Or switch to Debian? :)14:20
amotokisc68cal: precisely speaking, everyone who wants to use dhcp-agent in Juno needs to upgrade to 14.04.14:20
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sc68calzigo: hahaha yes, or switch to debian :)14:21
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amotoki :)14:21
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sc68calI might need to bring this topic up in the infra meeting or 3rd party CI14:22
sc68calsince people might be using 12.04 for CI systems like NEC does14:22
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amotokiActually I built dnsmasq package from ubuntu and put my local repo. NEC CI picks dnsmasq from there.14:23
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sc68calamotoki: true, that is one way to fix :) we'll just need to give everyone a lot of warning about this14:25
amotokiThe thing we need to bring up is that neutron CI requires Ubuntu 14.04 (12.04 no longer works with customized package).14:25
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amotokiI honestly wonder why other CI's didn't break. They all use ubuntu 14.04 or Redhat variants....14:26
sc68calI'll add a reminder for myself to bring this up in the main neutron meeting14:26
amotokisc68cal: good idea.14:26
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HenryGI know our CI has switched to 14.0414:27
HenryGsc68cal: that is what the #action thing is for :)14:27
amotokikyle and mark already agree with the direction on dev ML, so it must be just a notice.14:28
sc68calHenryG: agree -14:28
amotoki#action sc68cal report dnsmasq 2.63 requirement for dhcp-agent in the weekly neutron meeting14:28
sc68calI think you need to be chair for it to stick14:29
sc68calso excuse the copy and paste :)14:29
sc68cal#action sc68cal report dnsmasq 2.63 requirement for dhcp-agent in the weekly neutron meeting14:29
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HenryGSo while we have amotoki here ...14:29
HenryGCan we talk about IPv6 in Horizon?14:30
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sc68calgo for it ;)14:30
* HenryG searches for the review ...14:30
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amotokihttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/74453/ ?14:31
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HenryGSo mainly I want to bring attention to the review because most of us don't go looking outside neutron much.14:33
HenryGPlease review it. At least the parts that you recognize.14:33
HenryGOne question I have about it ...14:33
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amotokiThe easiest way is just to run the review :-)14:34
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HenryGDo we want to expose the raw attribute names in the UI?14:34
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HenryGOr give them "English" labels instead? "IPv6 RA Mode" etc?14:35
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amotokiWhat I concern is ipv6 ra and address modes have a lot of constraints. there are 10 combos14:35
amotokimy idea is just to make them dropdown list.14:35
HenryGamotoki: yes, and markmcclain has plans to tweak the attributes to avoid that14:36
amotokior abishek is doing in antother approach. I can implement my idea so that you can test it.14:36
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amotokii feel same as markmcclain :-)14:37
sc68caldo we have a spec for the tweaking of attributes?14:37
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amotokiHenryG: do you see any?14:38
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HenryGsc68cal: I have not seen a spec yet, only some doodling on a whiteboard at the midcycle14:39
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HenryGGiven how much other stuff markmcclain has on his plate, I don't expect anything before kilo14:39
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HenryGWhat I may do is take the doodles and draft something, then run it by markmcclain to see if he will allow me to post the spec14:41
amotokiI would like to implement the dropdown menu version of Horizon support. It will be appreciated if you feedback on it and suggest better lablings :-)14:41
amotokii will talk with abishek on it.14:41
sc68calamotoki: dropdown sounds reasonable to me14:41
HenryGamotoki: Have you posted a review yet?14:41
amotokiHenryG: not yet. will be avaialble in a couple of days.14:42
HenryGamotoki: sounds good. Add me as reviewer so I see it14:42
sc68calHenryG: ok. I'll try and keep an open mind. But I'm sort of exhausted by the API debate14:42
sc68calWe seem to have it every cycle....14:42
HenryGsc68cal: Don't worry, it's not really changing any of the work we have achieved.14:44
amotokiBTW, does the list in neutron meeting wiki cover all pending reviews related to IPv6? I am not a specialist of IPv6 but i can.14:45
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sc68calyes it usually has a up to date list.14:46
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HenryGsc68cal: Not sure what else is on the agenda, but we should point out the bug list.14:47
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HenryGSeveral new bugs have been filed.14:48
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sc68calthanks f14:49
sc68cal*for the reminder14:49
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sc68calif there isn't anything else, I'll see everyone next week!14:57
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*** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645."14:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 19 14:58:22 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-19-14.06.html14:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-19-14.06.txt14:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-08-19-14.06.log.html14:58
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bauzas#startmeeting gantt15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 19 15:00:05 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is bauzas. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'gantt'15:00
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bauzashi, who's here for discussing nova scheduler efforts ?15:00
bauzasn0ano is having a meeting conflict so I'll be chairing today15:01
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bauzasok, still waiting one more min15:02
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jaypipeshi folks15:04
jaypipessorry late15:04
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bauzasno problem, we haven't yet started15:04
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bauzasonly mspreitz and me seem to be present today :)15:04
mspreitzand Jay15:04
bauzaswas talking to jaypipes :)15:04
bauzasok, I guess we can start then15:05
* jaypipes asked ndipanov to hop in here.15:05
bauzaslittle agenda, but still :)15:05
bauzasjaypipes: cool thanks15:05
* ndipanov lands15:05
jaypipesis PaulMurray still on holiday?15:05
jaypipesand where's Mr. Moustache?15:05
bauzasjaypipes: seems so15:05
bauzasjaypipes: my sources tell me that Paul is somewhere in France15:05
jaypipesdarn Europeans with all your vacation :P15:05
bauzasjaypipes: so I suspect that he liked so much the country that he won't be there for years15:06
bauzasn0ano is having administrative tasks IIIUC15:06
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jaypipeswell, he'll be there i November :)15:06
bauzasanyway, let's start15:06
bauzasYathi: \o15:06
bauzas#topic Forklift Status15:07
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bauzasso much fun here15:07
bauzasso, basically, a quick status, as usual15:07
bauzashttps://review.openstack.org/82778 and https://review.openstack.org/104556 are identified as priorities for J-3 reviews15:08
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bauzasstill waiting approvals tho15:08
bauzasboth of them are related to bp/scheduler-lib stuff15:08
bauzasanother bp is on-going15:09
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bauzaswith the spec to be validated15:09
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bauzaschanges have been proposed, https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:bp/isolate-scheduler-db,n,z15:09
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jaypipesbauzas: I have reservations about some of the code in those two patches. will review with comments today.15:10
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bauzasjaypipes: sure, please do15:10
bauzasabout isolate-scheduler-db, the main concern is about its usage of ERT (Extensible Resource Tracker)15:10
ndipanovI do as well but mine are well known :)15:10
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bauzasndipanov: :)15:11
ndipanovalthough not sure it;s the 2 patches I am referring to15:11
jaypipesbauzas: my concerns also revolve around ERT.15:11
jaypipesbauzas: actually, let me restate...15:11
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bauzasndipanov: it's not the same bp15:11
ndipanovthen nothing... carry on15:12
bauzasndipanov: the 2 formers are creating a new client15:12
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ndipanovhaven't looked at those15:12
bauzasjaypipes: sure, please do15:12
jaypipesbauzas: my concerns around the isolate scheduer DB patches is that the fundamentals of the API -- the API structure and the parameters passed between conductor/api and the scheduler -- need to be cleaned up before creating a client lib. And the ERT stuff made the interfaces worse than they already were.15:12
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bauzasI opened a thread in -dev ML for discussions also http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/043466.html15:12
bauzasjaypipes: by creating client lib, you also refer to bp/scheduler-lib ?15:13
ndipanovI could not possibly agree more with jaypipes15:14
jaypipesyes, I will try to reply to the ML. I am stepping over some toes with my comments, though, and am treading a tightrope between comments and antagonism.15:14
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jaypipesbauzas: creating client lib == https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82778/15:14
bauzassounds like we opened the Pandore box15:15
jaypipesbauzas: well, technically ERT opened it. :P15:15
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ndipanovjaypipes, I really don't want to be antagonistic as well - but if we get to stall for one cycle and get things right(er) based on real feedback - it's a net win for gantt imho15:15
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jaypipesndipanov: I agree (that's actually been what I said repeatedly in Oregon as well).15:16
bauzasjaypipes: hence the plan we discussed15:16
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bauzasjaypipes: I mean, we identified some work to do15:16
jaypipesbauzas: yes, agreed.15:16
jaypipesbauzas: for instance, I am 100% supportive of the removal of the direct DB and objects calls from the nova/scheduler/ code15:17
bauzasbtw. nice blogpost from mikal here http://www.stillhq.com/openstack/juno/000012.html for summarizing what was discussing in the nova meetup about scheduler15:17
bauzasjaypipes: glad to hear I have sponsors :)15:17
jaypipesbauzas: the issue I have is that the calling structures for the API calls (currently internal, but will become external once the split goes forward) are awkward and not future-proof.15:17
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bauzasthat's why we identified the need to iterate on that15:18
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bauzasbut if we take the strategy, the work for Kilo is about creating a python lib15:18
jaypipesbauzas: I believe the ERT work is an "anti-iteration" of that, though.15:18
bauzasso that means that external API will be very loosy15:18
mspreitzyou mean lossy, bad?15:19
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bauzasmspreitz: uh, my bad15:19
bauzasmspreitz: I mean, that will be very lightweight15:19
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bauzasso, my concerns are about the alternatives15:20
bauzasI'm not fully pro-ERT :)15:20
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bauzasjaypipes: ndipanov: what are your thoughts on what should be done first ? (I'm not saying "rewrite RT and deliver it in Scheduler" :D )15:20
ndipanovthis is how I see it15:20
ndipanovif we are going to stic with "optimistic scheduling"15:21
bauzasprovided we identified that scheduler needs to have a clear way to get info from other nova bits15:21
ndipanovand even if we are not15:21
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bauzasndipanov: could you please link again your paper ?15:21
bauzasndipanov: was pretty much of interest, btw. :)15:21
ndipanovwe need a way to agree on what data goes to the scheduler, and after that to the compute nodes15:21
bauzasndipanov: agreed15:21
ndipanovand what data goes from compute nodes to the scheduler15:22
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bauzasndipanov: I think the statement of what's required in Nova filters has been done in the sped15:22
ndipanovand we need to make sure that this data can be retrieved in an efficient manner15:22
bauzasndipanov: agreed too15:22
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bauzasndipanov: lemme give you all the spec rst file15:23
bauzasndipanov: so you'll see all deps15:23
ndipanovonce you go down the road of agreeing on data15:23
bauzas(at least the ones I identified, I'm not bugproof :) )15:23
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ndipanovI think you will see that RT will need to live in the scheduler likely even though it will be called in computes15:23
Yathihave you considered keeping the data outside of scheduler completely as a external db service15:23
ndipanovin case we do optimistic scheduling15:24
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ndipanovwhich is what we do now - no locking in the sched, but may retry on computes15:24
bauzasndipanov: I was seeing RT as a client for updating the Scheduler15:24
bauzasie. RT and Scheduler need to have same view15:24
bauzasand RT pushes updates to Scheduler15:25
bauzasso, even if Scheduler goes stale, it goes back to RT for claiming with the correct values15:25
bauzasis johnthetubaguy around ?15:25
ndipanovwhat jaypipes was proposing with one of his POCs is to not do claims and retries on the host15:26
bauzasndipanov: yeah, I know15:26
bauzasndipanov: I was just mentioning another approach which was to keep claims (and RT) in Compute15:26
johnthetubaguybauzas: I am semi-available but behind on my email15:27
jaypipesndipanov: well, it was proposing to do a final retry/check on the host, but do claims (and return those claims over the Schedule API) in the scheduler itself.15:27
bauzasjohnthetubaguy: cool, we're just debating on how the RT/Scheduler thing is articulating15:27
ndipanovjaypipes, even better15:27
ndipanovthat this would totally be an implementation detail of the resource tracker15:27
jaypipesndipanov: so we do a tight loop on the scheduler side, with optimistic locking on the compute node resources, and then just do a retry/exception logic on the compute node itself.15:28
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johnthetubaguyjaypipes: this sounds like what we badly called two-phase commit before, or did I miss understand the proposal?15:28
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johnthetubaguyjaypipes: ah, your loop is inside the scheduler, not in the conductor15:29
bauzas#link http://eurosys2013.tudos.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/paper/Schwarzkopf.pdf15:29
jaypipesjohnthetubaguy: no, no 2-phase commit at all.15:29
ndipanovjaypipes, do link that patch here :)15:29
jaypipesjohnthetubaguy: right. the retry claim loop is entirely in the scheduler.15:29
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: honestly what we called was't two phase commit either15:29
jaypipesjohnthetubaguy: yes, understood :)15:30
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jaypipesanyway, the above PoC code was just that.. for demo purposes. It includes a bunch of code that shows how to model resources properly without ERT too.15:30
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ndipanovah I even starred it15:31
jaypipesit really should be broken down into two parts:15:31
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jaypipesa) changing  the scheduler APIs to use resource models and a real class (no nested dicts) for modeling requested resources, launch policies, and conditions15:32
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jaypipesb) having the scheduler do the claim process, not the compute node15:32
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ndipanovthe way I see it - you guys need to do a) and b) can come later15:33
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ndipanovbut a) is something that needs to be done or we will regret it15:33
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: one alternative is to move all claims to the conductor, then see how they fix into the scheduler, where possible? but maybe thats more work than we need15:33
jaypipesright, that's what I've been saying. and doing a) after a split is gonna just be painful15:33
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: just thinking of resize claims vs boot cliams, but maybe that split is silly15:33
ndipanovjohnthetubaguy, you need all the data that sched had to do either15:34
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johnthetubaguyyeah, ignore me I think, straight to scheduler makes more sense, its a given slot you are trying to reserver either way around15:34
bauzasjaypipes: correct me if I'm wrong, but a) is just stopping sending blobs ?15:35
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jaypipeswell, look, what I've been saying is that we need to get these resource models and resource/launch request models done first, then work on claim stuff. The problem with ERT is that it throws away good resource modeling in favor of yet more nested dicts of stuff.15:35
johnthetubaguyndipanov: so in the back of my head, its keeping the single scheduler running fast, so giving it less work to do, but really we need to make multiple schedulers work, and frankly I had bet on this claim process on the compute being the locking mechanism to fix that, so this fits those two things together nicely15:35
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ndipanovjaypipes, and also does not provide any way to go from: this was requested by the user-> this is the data we all see15:37
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: so I see the current ERT as a small step towards refactoring the existing code, not a finished thing, we need to split up the big blob of code into smaller chunks where is clear what you do to add new resources, and agreed we need something better than random dicts15:37
bauzasjohnthetubaguy: +115:37
jaypipesjohnthetubaguy: sorry, I disagree. I see at as a step backwards.15:37
ndipanovjohnthetubaguy, as for the claims being on compute - I don't think it's a bad design15:37
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ndipanovbut what is bad design - is that there is no clear way to do the same thing in sched and in the claim15:38
bauzasjaypipes: I mean, I can understand that nested dicts are evil, but why not consider ERT updating resource models ?15:38
mspreitzThose of us who want to make joint decisions will need a way to make joint claims15:38
ndipanovwithout doing select * from join...join...15:38
bauzasndipanov: hence the idea that RT and Scheduler should have same modezl15:39
jaypipesndipanov: I do. the placement engine needs to have a holistic view of the system's resources, and having claims handled on the compute node means the placement engine has out-of-date info and cannot make quick decisions (must rely on retry exceptions being raised from the compute)15:39
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: I think agree about your issues with the interface, I just saw that as something we need to improve and evolve to a strict versioned system, there are certainly safer ways down that path for the same kind of code split15:39
jaypipesbauzas: because the thing that is extensible about ERT does not need to be extensible? :)15:39
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ndipanovjaypipes, that is fair bu that is a design decision, and one we can walk away from for a better desing (less trade-offs) - and orthogonal to the idea of data modeling (and querying)15:40
jaypipesbauzas: resources don't need to be extensible. they need to be properly modeled.15:40
bauzasjaypipes: extensible is just another word for on-demand15:40
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jaypipesbauzas: no...15:40
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: I want to be able to reduce the reported resources to a bare minimum for my filters, but lets not try go there15:40
jaypipesbauzas: extensible, in the case of ERT, means resources are classes that are loaded as plugins in stevedore, and that is totally useless IMO15:40
jaypipesbauzas: instead, we need to properly model resources that we know are used in Nova: cpus, memory, NUMA placement, disk, ect15:41
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bauzasand aggregates, flavors, instances...15:41
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jaypipesbauzas: and making those resources "plugins" does not make those things suddenly proper models. in fact, it makes it even more loosely defined and non-standardized/inconsistently-applied15:42
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bauzasjaypipes: ok, let's ban the word "plugins" and replace it with "classes"15:42
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: yeah, I wish that big wasn't implemented already, its the ability to reduce the traffic to a minimum that I would like, and prehaps only reporting the deltas does that anyway, but maybe lets not go there right now, I love the claims discussion15:42
mspreitzNUMA placement is not a resource... it is the observation that you can not factor a node's resources into orthogonal sets15:42
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mspreitzorthogonal dimensions15:43
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dansmithjohnthetubaguy: I'm not really following this closely, but I too worry about it being *more* work to go from ERT to versioned/stable data than it would be from what we had before15:43
jaypipesmspreitz: no, that is not correct. if an instance consumes a certain socket/core/thread, it is consumed as a whole.15:43
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johnthetubaguydansmith: yeah, thats a good point, it seemed easier in my head, but happy to bow to the consensus on that15:44
ndipanovmspreitz, not sure I follow...15:44
bauzasso should we consider to make use of what we already version ?15:44
bauzasie. update Scheduler with objects ?15:44
dansmithjohnthetubaguy: I went from "on board" when it used objects, to "meh" when it didn't, and made the slow slide to -1 over the course of watching it15:44
mspreitznever mind, I was thinking of a more general kind of NUMA, I guess15:45
jaypipesbauzas: yes, definitely, but there's a number of things that are not objects -- for example, a "LaunchRequest" and a "Resource" (and subclasses) are not objects yet.15:45
ndipanovin the sence where it defines access times/bandwith that you could then somehow schedule on?15:45
ndipanovmspreitz, ^15:45
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bauzasjaypipes: what do you mean by LaunchRequest ?15:46
bauzasand a ComputeNode is a resource15:46
ndipanovbauzas, I assume all the data we need but don't have in a single place right now15:46
jaypipesbauzas: the thing currently called "request_spec" in the scheduler APIs.15:46
ndipanovlike filter_specs and requset_spec15:46
ndipanovyes that15:46
jaypipesbauzas: but made into a real class, not a random set of nested dicts.15:46
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ndipanovjaypipes, +100015:46
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: +115:47
bauzasjaypipes: I was expecting/fearing this answer...15:47
ndipanovok +115:47
jaypipeshttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/103598/4/nova/placement/__init__.py <-- see PlacementRequest class.15:47
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mspreitzndipanov: I was thinking of NUMA as referring to non-uniform access to main memory; I think the discussion here is focusing only on cache, which is bound to core15:47
jaypipesbauzas: don't fear the reaper.15:47
bauzasok, time is running fast (for the reaper too)15:47
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jaypipesbauzas: don't fear the reaper.15:48
jaypipesup key15:48
bauzaswe need to somewhat conclude on that topic, even if the the last topic is open discussion15:48
bauzaswrt what has been discussed15:48
mspreitzneeds more cowbells15:48
ndipanovbauzas, that's what I've been trying to say all along  - for me without this (modeling data first) - we are just postponing the pain15:49
jaypipesmspreitz: ++ :)15:49
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bauzasjaypipes: do you agreed on finding some time to discuss with me about a real *change* ?15:49
johnthetubaguybauzas: jaypipes: I like the retry loop for gaining claims living inside the scheduler, for the record15:49
bauzasjaypipes: of course, it will deserve a spec...15:49
jaypipesbauzas: absolutely. that's why I keep showing up here :)15:49
mspreitzI do have one thing for opens, or ML15:49
bauzasok so15:49
jaypipesbauzas: I just think ERT makes it harder to get to where we need to be.15:50
mspreitzI'd like to tighten up the arguments around smart or solver scheduler15:50
bauzas#action bauzas and jaypipes to propose a resource model for scheduler15:50
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: dansmith: I guess thats the point of contention, is ERT a step backwards or forwards15:50
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* ndipanov supports that and will even help if it's after thursday15:50
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bauzasok, happy us, we have an action15:51
jaypipesjohnthetubaguy: ndipanov and I are pretty strong on the backwards side.15:51
bauzasI'm proposing to discuss on ERT when PaulMurray is back15:51
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ndipanovyeah - I think it opens us up to more pain later for skimping on proper design now15:51
bauzasat least not reverting his change until he can somewhat discuss15:52
mspreitzMy opinion is that the central logic can be very generic: for each resource you have capacity and demands.  Could be handled with dicts.15:52
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jaypipesbauzas: yes, I agree completely with waiting for Paul to be back.15:52
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: dansmith: right, I kinda thought it was a baby step forward, all be it with some unfortunate baggage, but happy to go with the majority on this, I agree there are other much easier routes forward, just this one had effort on it already15:52
dansmithjohnthetubaguy: cool15:52
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bauzas... well, at least until Frogs free an English from jail15:52
bauzasok, next topic so15:53
bauzas7 mins left15:53
bauzas#topic open discussion15:53
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bauzasmspreitz: ?15:53
mspreitzI wonder if we can separate the issues of more sophisticated placement criteria from the issue of simultaneous vs. sequential15:53
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mspreitzI also wonder if Yathi has a runtime complexity argument in favor of simultaneous15:54
ndipanovbauzas, as for the paper that I linked to you the otehr day just google "google omega paper"15:54
bauzasndipanov: I gave the link in that discussion15:54
bauzasndipanov: see ^15:54
mspreitzThat is, I think we can do sophisticated placement criteria with scheduler hints, if we are willing to accept sequential solving.15:54
mspreitzThe argument about simultaneous vs. sequential solving is a possibly separable thing15:55
mspreitzYathi: are you still here?15:55
ndipanovmspreitz, sequential as - we have a queue and some kind of a lock on all resources15:55
bauzasmspreitz: I think that's a good question which deserves to rediscuss about Solver Scheduler bp15:55
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Yathihi yes15:55
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mspreitzby sequential I mean how we do it now, wtih  no attempt to gather a bunch of things together for a joint placement decision15:55
johnthetubaguyndipanov: hmm, interesting, thanks15:56
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Yathisimultaneous gives you a way to cover a unified view which could be lost when done sequentially15:56
ndipanovjohnthetubaguy, of course not all of that applies here - but it does make a nice taxonomy of differen sched designs and their tradeoffs15:56
mspreitzI want to be precise about the loss15:56
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mspreitzone loss is this: you risk picking a poorer solution15:56
bauzasYathi: simultaneous would possibly require to see a locking mechanism15:57
johnthetubaguyndipanov: right, thats always handy, shared terminology,15:57
mspreitzanother possible loss is this: you spend more time solving15:57
mspreitzI want to understand if the second is so15:57
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ndipanovI especially liked the 2 level approach where you have the resource master and the schedulers that see a subset of resources15:57
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ndipanovthat the master let's them see15:57
johnthetubaguymspreitz: one you do additions and substractions, you end up having to do both I guess, so maybe we do sequentially first?15:57
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johnthetubaguyndipanov: thats what cells does today (all be it badly)15:58
jaypipesjohnthetubaguy: correct.15:58
jaypipesjohnthetubaguy: sharding vs. unified view.15:58
Yathianything that will not result in a loss can be handled sequentialy i agree15:58
mspreitzjohnthetubaguy: I could easily see a roadmap that starts with more sophisticated placement criteria and switches from sequential to simultaneous later15:58
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Yathibut these will not increase solving time when done simultaneoulsy either15:58
bauzasmspreitz: IMHO, simultaneous needs to be covered out of Nova15:58
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bauzasmspreitz: because I'm seeing it as something asking for a "lease", and I think you know what I'm seeing15:59
mspreitzI am kinda lost in the cross conversation15:59
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mspreitzcan we pls follow up in the ML?15:59
bauzasmspreitz: sure, open a thread15:59
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bauzasfolks, thanks for your help, much appreciated16:00
jaypipesty bauzas :)16:00
ndipanovbauzas, np16:00
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bauzassee you next week, and jaypipes don't plan to take vacations soon :)16:00
ndipanovthank you for caring about this16:00
johnthetubaguyjaypipes: the cells sharding is more useful for "soft" people reasons like isolating infrastructure into like-typed failure zones as you add capacity, so you can spot failure patterns more easily, etc16:00
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bauzasbye all16:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645."16:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 19 16:00:39 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-19-15.00.html16:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-19-15.00.txt16:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-08-19-15.00.log.html16:00
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primemin2sterp#startmeeting hyper-v16:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 19 16:00:57 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is primemin2sterp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v'16:01
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primemin2sterpseems i have a couple nicks going on16:01
primemin2sterpluis_fdez: hi luis16:02
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primeministerpluis_fdez: much better16:03
primeministerpociuhandu: hi tavi16:04
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primeministerpociuhandu: is alex joining?16:04
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primeministerpalexpilotti: hey there16:05
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primeministerpalexpilotti: ping?16:06
ociuhanduhi all16:06
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primeministerpociuhandu: i believe alex is having irc issues16:06
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ociuhanduprimeministerp: he’s restarting irc client16:06
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alexpilottihi guys!16:07
primeministerpalexpilotti: great16:07
primeministerplet's begin16:07
primeministerpalexpilotti: development updates first?16:07
primeministerp#topic development updates16:08
alexpilottiso there’s quite a list of patches on review now16:08
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alexpilottiand a few merged lately16:08
alexpilottiso BPs: soft reboot,16:09
alexpilottiand console log16:09
alexpilottiare getting some review now16:09
alexpilottithey are marked as medium16:09
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alexpilottiall teh Cinder stuff is blocked16:09
primeministerpthat's hopeful16:09
primeministerpyes I'm aware16:09
primeministerptavi and I were discussing this morning16:09
alexpilottias we’ll discuss soon16:09
alexpilottiand there are quite some bug fixes coming from additional Tempest test runs that we posted recently16:10
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alexpilottiteh good news is that the list of exclusions is down to an almost insignificant amount16:10
primeministerpand those changes will be added to the existing tempest runs on every commit?16:10
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alexpilottiand this can reflect in the CI as well16:10
primeministerpalexpilotti: i.e. livemigration and such16:11
alexpilottiwe need to16:11
primeministerpI know I want to make sure we're turning them back on16:11
alexpilottito do that we need 2 Hyper-V nodes as we planned from day 116:11
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alexpilottiand a DC16:11
primeministerpwhich we already have16:11
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alexpilottican be a single one for all the hyper-v servers16:11
primeministerpthe dc16:11
primeministerpis needed16:11
primeministerp's get on that this week16:11
primeministerpI'll work w/ vijay and tim16:11
alexpilottisee email I sent to the CI folks yesterday16:12
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primeministerpI saw it16:12
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alexpilottiif we get this running, we’ll be the first CI running live migration tests :-)16:12
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primeministerplet's get it going asap16:12
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alexpilottiso teh list of patches is quite long, I don’t think it’s worth going through all of them now16:13
primeministerpalexpilotti: i'll touch base w/ the rest of the team and work on getting a dc16:13
primeministerpalexpilotti: that's fine16:13
primeministerpalexpilotti: let's chat cinder testing too16:13
alexpilottiah, I have some scripts that will help, but we can talk about this later16:14
primeministerpthat's fine also16:14
alexpilottikerberos constrained delegation, etc16:14
primeministerpalexpilotti: can we use that instead of a dc?16:14
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alexpilottiwe could use Samba 4.116:14
alexpilottibut still a DC16:14
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primeministerpalexpilotti: yep16:14
primeministerpalexpilotti: we might get some love from the samba folks if we do16:14
alexpilottithe Hyper-V API refuse to enable live migration w/o domain membership16:15
primeministerpalexpilotti: neil was just with them a month back or so16:15
alexpilottithere’s a thread on the ML on this topic16:15
alexpilottithey’re willing to help16:15
primeministerplet's touch base after this16:15
alexpilottiI tried some time ago w Samba 4 beta16:15
primeministerpto discuss16:15
alexpilottiso it’s worth IMO giving it another shot now16:15
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alexpilottiah, even most Nova reviews are blocked due to the current CI failure16:16
primeministerpalexpilotti: yep i'm aware, tavi said the new image is being tested now16:16
alexpilottisorry from jumping back and forth between the topics :-)16:16
primeministerpalexpilotti: fluid thought16:17
primeministerpkeep it dynamic16:17
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primeministerpociuhandu: with the change in sku can we still get something on the cinder side today16:18
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ociuhanduprimeministerp: we need to rebuild the image using the datacenter edition16:18
primeministerpalexpilotti: cinder ^16:18
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primeministerpociuhandu: thx16:18
primeministerpalexpilotti: anything to add16:19
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alexpilottiwe’ll run local tempest tests as soon as we are done w the compute side16:20
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alexpilottiand post the logs as they ask16:20
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alexpilottiit’s not that easy but better than just waiting16:20
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primeministerphopefully the actual test runs will be ready by the end of the week16:20
primeministerpociuhandu: is there any issues w/ the hardware?16:20
primeministerpociuhandu: the servers that allocated16:20
primeministerpociuhandu: I can have celso help if needed16:21
ociuhanduprimeministerp: afaik there were some servers dedicated to the cinder side, never actually tested them yet16:21
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primeministerpociuhandu: can you find out if they are as needed so we can rebuild them asap if neeced16:21
primeministerper needed16:21
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ociuhanduprimeministerp: once I finish the ci image update and resume the other tests16:22
primeministerpociuhandu: thx16:22
primeministerpociuhandu: if you let me know where they are I'll have celso check them out for you16:22
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ociuhanduprimeministerp: can you sink with Tim on that? he “reallocated” them16:23
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primeministerpociuhandu: ok16:23
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primeministerpalexpilotti: ok I'm good for now16:24
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primeministerplots to do16:24
primeministerplet's close it and follow up on the tasks discussed16:24
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alexpilottitx guys bye!16:24
ociuhandubye all16:25
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boris-42#startmeeting Rally17:04
openstackboris-42: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.  Use #endmeeting first.17:04
boris-42primeministerp you should end meeting17:04
boris-42primeministerp ^^17:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645."17:05
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 19 17:05:09 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:05
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-08-19-16.00.html17:05
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-08-19-16.00.txt17:05
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-08-19-16.00.log.html17:05
boris-42#startmeeting Rally17:05
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 19 17:05:24 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:05
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:05
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:05
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'rally'17:05
boris-42k4n0 rediskin ping17:05
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boris-42Hi all17:08
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boris-42Okay let's start17:10
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boris-42#topic Making a small virtual summit17:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Making a small virtual summit (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:11
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boris-42guys what do you think if we make in hangout mini summit?17:11
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boris-42e.g. 2 days where we can discuss interesting stuff17:11
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coolsvapboris-42, +1, when are we planning this, I am okay with sometime around mid-sept17:13
boris-42coolsvap probably mid-august?17:13
boris-42coolsvap mid september will be quite close to openstack summit17:13
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coolsvapboris-42, its already Aug 19 maybe around second week of sept 9,1017:14
boris-42coolsvap oh shii17:15
boris-42coolsvap okay 9,10 september seems ok17:15
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boris-42coolsvap we wil have time to prepare docs for discussion17:15
coolsvapboris-42, yup17:15
boris-42olkonami temujin rook what do you think ?17:16
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olkonamisept 9,10 is ok for me17:16
rookis this a virtual event?17:16
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boris-42rook yep17:17
boris-42rook just a hangout that can be join by everybody17:17
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rookboris-42 I am good with the September dates.17:17
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boris-42marcoemorais harlowja ^17:18
temujinthink, that's all right for such event17:18
harlowjaboris-42 cool17:18
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harlowjaboris-42 coasterz  i think i'm fine with sept 9,1017:19
harlowja oops, should be coolsvap17:19
boris-42harlowja ok great17:19
boris-42it will be great opportunity to collect user expireicne17:19
boris-42and to dicuss how to cover more use cases17:19
boris-42okay let's move to next topic17:20
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boris-42#topic "rally info" command17:20
*** openstack changes topic to ""rally info" command (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:20
boris-42#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102853/17:20
boris-42^ This is the start of long road17:20
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boris-42where you will be able by running CLI commands to get all interesting infromation17:21
boris-42so this is first step17:21
boris-42"rally info find NovaServers" will print it's docstring17:21
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boris-42as well I think that in future it should print available benchmarks17:21
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boris-42ally info find  NovaServers.boot_and_delete_server will print detailed info about benchmark and what arguments it accepts (if this info is presented in code)17:22
boris-42so we should improve quality of some doc strings17:22
boris-42and work on usability of this comamnd17:22
boris-42e.g. listing stuff, and find that supports regexp and so on17:23
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boris-42rook coolsvap k4n0 harlowja olkonami temujin ^17:24
boris-42any thoughts?17:24
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coolsvapboris-42, agreed we need to work on doc strings if we want to increase its usability17:24
boris-42coolsvap yep so probably we need to add blueprint17:25
boris-42coolsvap like we have for tests17:25
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boris-42#action add blueprint for improving doc strings in benchmarks17:25
coolsvapboris-42, yup17:25
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boris-42okay let's move to next topic17:27
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boris-42#topic generic cleanup17:27
*** openstack changes topic to "generic cleanup (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:27
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boris-42Okay we are still fighting17:28
boris-42to get clean up work in every case in any case17:28
boris-42so to do that rediskin is refactoring current cleanup context17:28
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boris-42rediskin are you here?17:28
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boris-42okay I'll try to cover most important points17:30
boris-42Split admin & user (cleanup) already done. This is required case we are going to support benchmarking withou admin access17:30
boris-42And it's already done17:31
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boris-42The second thing is to create and extensible framework for adding new resources to cleanup17:31
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boris-42So users will just specify some class and implement 1-2 methods17:31
boris-42that cleanup single resource17:31
boris-42and cleanup context will know how to use these mini-resource cleanup's17:32
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boris-42and do all logic with limiting speed of resource deletion17:32
boris-42and repeat in case of failuers17:32
boris-42there is already patch that remove part of crap ^17:33
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boris-42And as well there is third point that should be done17:33
boris-42it will be quite big17:33
boris-42it's finish unification of resource names & implement command17:34
boris-42that will delete all resources with this specifc pattern17:34
boris-42e.g. rally_<task_uuid>_<uuid> will be the name of resource17:34
boris-42so we can list all resources and delete one by one17:34
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boris-42(in any case even if something went wrong with server that is running rally)17:35
boris-42coolsvap rook harlowja olkonami temujin ^17:35
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harlowjai'm still a fan of writing a file that has all the things rally created ;)17:35
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harlowjaor multiple files...17:36
boris-42harlowja it will create a big overhead imho17:36
boris-42harlowja plus what if something happen with that file17:36
harlowjalike aliens take it?17:36
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harlowjaor comets hit it?17:36
temujinthat's grate idea to rollback changes the benchmark made17:36
harlowjaspace aliens17:36
boris-42harlowja yep17:37
olkonamiI prefer approach from boris-4217:37
harlowjaok dokie, up to u guys17:37
harlowjai like AOF for this kind of stuff :-P17:37
boris-42harlowja making file in case of distributed load17:38
harlowja*append only files17:38
boris-42harlowja maybe dangours=)17:38
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harlowjalife is dangerous17:38
harlowjai drove my car in today, that was dangerous17:38
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boris-42harlowja lol17:39
boris-42harlowja yep17:39
harlowjabut u know what, i did it!17:39
harlowjaamzing, i know17:39
boris-42harlowja I really don't know we can provide this way with creating resources =)17:39
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boris-42harlowja and putting them to file17:40
boris-42harlowja but really not sure that it's better then just don't have file=)17:40
harlowjaeasier to view when just a bunch of files17:40
harlowjaeasier to make non-monolothic cleanup scripts17:40
harlowjai heard rally is monolothic, lol17:40
boris-42harlowja me too17:40
boris-42harlowja too monolothic17:40
rookit is just a bunch of scripts17:41
boris-42rook rally?17:41
harlowjamonolothic godamnit17:41
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boris-42rook actually it's in one directory so it's monolithic..17:42
rookI spent most of my lunch reading through that thread17:42
boris-42rook ahaha=)17:42
boris-42rook I eat already tons of popcorn=)17:42
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rookI don't have a dog in the fight... Just interesting to read the different opinions17:43
boris-42rook so i really dislike of splitting rally to separated repositories in the way that QA wants17:44
boris-42it will make development and usage harder17:44
lordd_well I heard it is unstable and will break your cloud and kill rook's dog17:44
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rooklordd_ you assholes! that is why my dogs keep dying!17:45
rookboris-42 can you explain what this split is?17:45
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boris-42rook so they would like to move in separated repository load generators from rally17:46
boris-42rook scenarios as well in separated17:46
boris-42rook and script that save data to DB in separeted17:46
boris-42rook and stuff that generates html with results in separate17:46
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harlowjais there then a script that combines all these back together to form rally, lol17:46
boris-42harlowja yep17:46
boris-42harlowja in gates17:46
rookis Tempest handled in this way?17:47
boris-42rook so and all this to be able to consume these scripts with tempest17:47
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boris-42rook they would like17:47
harlowjathats like captain planet right, where u combine all the rings and stuff17:47
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rookharlowja: hahaha17:47
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boris-42harlowja lol17:47
lordd_lol indeed17:48
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boris-42so I really don't know how to convince people17:48
boris-42just to left rally as is17:48
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harlowjahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbW5sxyu9bU (captain planet, for those who have no idea wtf i am referring to)17:48
boris-42harlowja ahaha17:49
lordd_well, I don't want to be unpopular, but I would like to have an installation method similar to other openstack projects17:49
lordd_but I suppose this will come with time17:49
harlowjainstead of captain planet, it can be captain boris17:49
lordd_in any case, with Ubuntu, the install script works perfectly17:50
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boris-42lordd_ installation for what?17:50
boris-42lordd_ you mean be able to do pip install rally?17:50
boris-42lordd_ someday someday we will make first rally version17:51
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lordd_either pip, or OS packaging17:51
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lordd_but I totally understand why this isn't happening now, and shouldn't be a priority at all17:51
boris-42lordd_ so yep someday17:51
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lordd_this rant was only related to the monolithic, scripting, etc..17:52
lordd_somebody mentioned because of the installation method17:52
lordd_in any case, please ignore this comments and continue17:52
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boris-42lordd_ will de if you say=)17:53
boris-42#topic open discussion17:53
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:53
boris-42okay probably somebody want to put some input?17:53
lordd_I have a question concerning network testing17:53
lordd_I saw a script example mentioning neutron networks, but that didn't work17:54
boris-42lordd_ hm what one?17:54
lordd_sorry, the idea would be to associate nova vms to neutron networks17:55
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lordd_ "neutron_network": {17:56
lordd_                    "network_cidr": "10.%s.0.0/16",17:56
lordd_this in theory is context for boot_and_delete_server17:56
lordd_from NovaServers17:56
lordd_     "context": {17:57
boris-42heh there are 2 patches related to this17:57
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lordd_thanks, I will check on that17:58
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boris-42lordd_ it hold work actually17:58
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boris-42lordd_ not sure I didn't test it17:58
boris-42lordd_ but I'll17:58
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lordd_ok, next one is to create actual load from benchmarking17:58
boris-42lordd_ lets' move to rally chat17:59
lordd_ok, np17:59
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boris-42cause we need to finish meeting17:59
*** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645."17:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 19 17:59:30 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-19-17.05.html17:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-19-17.05.txt17:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-08-19-17.05.log.html17:59
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dolphmayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, fmarco76, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting17:59
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ayoungOyez Oyez18:00
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dolphm#startmeeting keystone18:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 19 18:00:54 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:00
dolphm#topic Feature proposal freeze August 21st18:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Feature proposal freeze August 21st (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
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bknudsonthat's 2 days from now18:01
dolphmi suspect this is going to be what most of today's meeting is about, but.... FPF is happening!18:01
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dolphmit is technically two days from now, but i want to make sure all the blueprinty stuff that we're shipping in juno is in review today/tomorrow so we can make clear cuts on thursday if necessary18:02
dolphmright now it only looks like a few things are skating close to the deadline18:02
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dolphmwhich requires things to be "spec approved, code complete, and in review"18:02
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dolphmso bp endpoint-policy which has no implementation in review, but has an API review up https://review.openstack.org/#/c/112292/18:03
bknudsondolphm: it looks pretty staightforward18:03
dolphmhenrynash says that should make it?18:04
dolphmbknudson: i hope so!18:04
stevemarit does have that going for it18:04
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dolphmbp non-persistent-tokens has had some updates today - is that still 85/90% going to make it, morganfainberg?18:04
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bknudsonmorganfainberg: I had some questions about HEAD ops with no GET on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/112292/3/v3/src/markdown/identity-api-v3-os-endpoint-policy.md18:04
henrynashdolphm: so I just posted the backend part of this extension18:04
morganfainbergi'd say we'll be in the 90% range18:04
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morganfainbergdolphm, for change of completion. but it's a load of code18:05
stevemarhenrynash is awesome, chucks up a patch at 2:0418:05
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morganfainbergdolphm, so far like 16 reviews and 1100 lines of change or so18:05
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dstanekhenrynash: that was fast!18:05
dolphmhenrynash: yay!18:05
dolphmhenrynash: so we'll expect (1?) more patch?18:05
henrynashdolphm: yes. I split it into two - backend and then the controller18:06
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dolphmhenrynash: that works18:06
morganfainbergbknudson, ah i'll take a look18:06
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dolphmare we still doing separate migrate repos? :-/18:06
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dolphmlooking at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115362/18:07
henrynashdolphm: it’s all in the extension, so it has its own migrate repo18:07
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ayoungdolphm, separate migrate repos lead to fewer conflicts. I'd like to keep them as the norm18:08
morganfainbergayoung, i think we should revisit that concept in K18:09
ayoungmorganfainberg, sure18:09
morganfainbergayoung, i think it poses a lot of other associated headaches. but not now18:09
ayoungmorganfainberg, lets table for now18:09
morganfainbergayoung, ++18:09
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dolphmsomeone, i'm assuming stuart put composite auth support on the agenda, but that would be outside the named integrated release process https://review.openstack.org/#/c/108384/18:09
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morganfainbergdolphm, wrong section18:09
morganfainbergthat was me, was supposed to be one less *18:09
morganfainbergso, as in "please review it"18:10
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dolphmaand... i'm going to do a separate topic for this, but hopefully it'll be quick18:10
dolphm#topic Deprecations in Juno18:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Deprecations in Juno (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:10
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morganfainbergooh ooh, token_api18:11
dolphmdo we have anything? as of this morning, the bp was blank & not started18:11
morganfainbergjust tagged a patch to that a few minutes ago18:11
bknudsonIdentity API V2?18:11
dolphmmorganfainberg: as opposed to token persistence API?18:11
ayoungreferring to auth plugins by method name18:11
bknudsonoops, too soon18:11
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bknudsondo we need to call it out if it's still deprecated?18:11
dolphmbknudson: xml support was deprecated in icehouse18:11
morganfainbergdolphm, the internal `token_api` will be deprecated, but persistence is housed under token_provider_api18:11
ayounger...make the class name?  morganfainberg what exactly did we deprecate there?18:12
morganfainbergdolphm, the idea is no one should ever use token_api.XXXX18:12
dolphmbknudson: i'm going to leave v2 be for the moment - i don't think we totally meet the TC's recommendation on when we can deprecate v218:12
bknudsondolphm: y, nova doesn't work with v318:12
bknudsonnor does auth_token middleware18:12
morganfainbergayoung, the use of <class>.token_api.<method>18:12
dolphmbknudson: what's missing in auth_token?18:12
morganfainbergayoung, that massive chain of stuff i've been shuffling around to get us to non-persistence18:13
bknudsondolphm: it doesn't authenticate using v3... e.g., it doesn't support domains18:13
bknudsonspecifying the user domain and project domain18:13
morganfainbergayoung, it doesn't change the underlying code, just managers and controlelrs shouldn't use token_api, let token_provider_api call it's .persistence instead18:13
bknudsonfor its token18:13
dolphmbknudson: oh from the auth token user's perspective ++18:13
jamielennoxdon't i have a patch up for that?18:13
dolphmjamielennox: i believe you do...18:13
gyeejamielennox, yeah, I thought I saw something from you18:13
jamielennoxactually maybe i don't, i had something working in testing but i can't see it18:14
gyeebknudson, nova CLI patch is under review18:14
bknudsongyee: the part that I thought I'd get done for nova is to use v3 auth to get the token for its communication with neutron.18:15
morganfainbergbknudson, i need to chase down jogo and resolve the policy,json issues in nova. it's a bit of a headache18:15
gyeebknudson, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/105900/18:15
morganfainbergbknudson, for nova (and this applies to other projectd) to be v3 friendly18:15
jogomorganfainberg: o/18:15
bknudsonI had a spec in nova but I since we're running against the same freeze I told them I wasn't going to get it done for J18:15
morganfainbergjogo, post meeting you around/not busy? [~45mins]18:15
morganfainbergjogo, probably will be quick.18:16
jogomorganfainberg: I think I can squeeze that in18:16
bknudsonI should be able to work on it and have it ready soon in K18:16
morganfainbergjogo, ok will ping you as soon as we're done18:16
jogomorganfainberg: sounds good18:16
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jogomorganfainberg: thanks18:16
gyeebknudson, what else is missing for Nova?18:16
bknudsonit also depends on a new release of some client libs18:16
bknudsongyee: nova needs to be able to use v3 authentication to get a token for its neutronclient stuff18:17
Haneefbknudson: How about service user/service tenant in middleware. That is still v218:17
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bknudsonHaneef: we were just talking about that... jamielennox said he might have been working on it.18:17
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gyeebknudson, so as long as nova is passing the token to neutronclient we're fine right?18:18
jamielennoxyep, i'm not sure why it isn't up already but it works18:18
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bknudsongyee: nova doesn't always pass a token to neutronclient now... it can also pass username + password18:18
jamielennoxgyee: nova uses its own auth to talk to  neutron not the users18:18
jamielennoxno idea why, but it means there are a bunch of options to remove18:19
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gyeeoh, you mean like their own auth plugins?18:19
jamielennoxgyee: no as in the nova service user18:19
bknudsongyee: it uses neutronclient which accepts username and password18:19
bknudsonhere was a first stab at the nova work: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/113735/18:20
bknudsonit didn't go well18:20
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* gyee speechless18:20
jamielennoxwe are lacking at least a way to override the catalog from a plugin/session18:21
jamielennoxthere was something else as well....18:21
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ayoungits ok.  no one uses neutron anyway18:21
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henrynashayoung: aahhhhhhh18:21
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bknudsonjamielennox: nova might actually be happier using the service catalog rather than having the endpoint in the config file18:22
bknudsonbut when it's doing token auth then it will need to get the endpoint/catalog from somewhere.18:22
jamielennoxbknudson: i still can't figure out why they are using the nova service user rather than the user token18:22
jamielennoxbut yes, i would imagine they would be ok with that bit18:23
bknudsonjamielennox: it's possible there isn't a case where the nova service user is actually used.18:23
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jamielennoxthe problem is we still need to honour the old setting if it is present18:23
ayoung"This deal is getting worse all the time! "18:23
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dolphmso, back on topic, it sounds like token_api was the only thing we actually wanted to deprecate as part of bp deprecated-as-of-juno ? :P18:24
ayoungNeed to beat on Horizon some more to make sure it can support V3.18:25
ayoungdolphm, and the auth-plugin thing18:25
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dolphmayoung: was that not already deprecated?18:25
ayoungthe use of <class>.token_api.<method>18:25
ayoungnot officially18:25
ayoungwasn't even inthe docs that you could do it18:25
jamielennoxbknudson, ayoung: on that i did a new version of the endpoint hack: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/90632/ with a WIP follow up review18:25
jamielennoxnot sure about it though so i'll talk to you both about it post meeting18:26
gyeehow do you deprecate something that's not officially documented?18:26
gyeejust saying :)18:26
dolphmayoung: are you volunteering to deprecate that then?18:27
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gyeeself deprecation18:27
ayoungdolphm, a deprecation message is in Log now if it is used18:27
ayoungthat was morganfainberg 's req to approve the patch18:27
dolphmayoung: well, that's what i meant by "isn't it already deprecated?"18:27
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ayoungdolphm, ah, misunderstood.18:28
dolphmand then there was some conversation here about the federation API18:28
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dolphmto deprecate both /v3/OS-FEDERATION/projects and /v3/OS-FEDERATION/domains ?18:28
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bknudsonright because jamielennox provides /auth/projects and /auth/domains18:29
jamielennoxi think that's a good idea18:29
ayoungworks for me.18:29
dolphmeven though we basically have to support those forever18:29
bknudsonwe'll use JSONHome to point clients to the right URL18:29
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dolphmso, basically don't advertise both, ever18:30
boris-42Hi guys18:30
jamielennoxi'll redo that spec and deprecate the federation resources18:31
jamielennoxi put up a implementation patch as well18:31
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jamielennoxoh - spec was merged already18:31
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bknudsoncan't change it now.18:32
dolphmjamielennox: i already put it on the deprecation spec18:32
ayoungdeprecation can and should be a separate commit anyway18:32
dolphmjamielennox: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/deprecated-as-of-juno18:32
dolphmayoung: ++18:33
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dolphmjamielennox: follow the /auth/ implementation with a deprecation patch to OS-FEDERATION?18:33
jamielennoxdolphm: yep18:33
dolphmalrighty, that's three things then, and one is already done (ayoung's)18:33
dolphmand morganfainberg's is deep in review18:34
dolphm#topic Email as a first class attribute18:34
*** openstack changes topic to "Email as a first class attribute (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:34
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/111982/18:34
dolphmhenrynash o/18:34
henrynashdolphm: so really a couple of questions here18:34
bknudsonI thought we just removed the code that even tried to use it (since it would 500)18:34
henrynashwe seem to sort-of support it…18:35
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bknudsonfor what?18:35
henrynash…i.e. LDAP mapping will fill in the email attribute18:35
henrynashand the keystoneclient supports it explicitly18:35
bknudsonLDAP mapping can fill in any attribute18:35
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henrynashbknudson: we have a specific config variable to control email attribute18:36
dolphmhenrynash: first of all, do we need to discuss this in the context of juno or kilo? i'd rather have this conversation in terms of kilo18:36
jamielennoxkeystoneclient talks about it by name but it just goes into the extra data column18:36
henrynashteh real question is….are we already in danger of supporting PII info ?18:36
dolphmright, keystone itself doesn't have first class support for email18:36
bknudsonbtw the docs also say that you can filter on email still18:36
henrynashso wondered if we should get a security viewpoint on this18:37
dolphmhenrynash: that's a good argument in favor of not supporting email :P18:37
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gyeehanrynash, pii according to which compliance?18:37
dolphmgyee: all of the compliances18:37
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bknudsondocs change: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115330/18:37
bknudson(it's the wadls)18:37
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henrynashbknudson: all our user entity exampels in the spec also include email18:38
dstanekhenrynash: email is traditionally in the PII realm18:38
dolphmbknudson: +1!18:38
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henrynashdolphm: ione option is to pull email from teh idenity_api spec in all places18:39
dolphmhenrynash: i'd be in favor of that18:39
dolphmunless there's a strong use case behind the spec18:39
bknudsonso what's the proposal? move it from extras column to an email column?18:39
dolphmbknudson: the current proposal is just to add a filter for email - which i'd argue does require making it a real column, yes18:40
henrynashbknudson: no, there’s noneed for that…this was kciked off by looking to impelemt what the spec said taht you can filter on email18:40
henrynashdolphm: technicallyit doesn’t required it….but if it gest used a lot, then you need to18:40
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gyeebut you can stash anything in "extra", PII or not18:41
dolphmhenrynash: but it's not actually documented as an attribute on the user resource in the spec -- it's just copy pasta in the examples18:41
bknudsonI'm worried about giving someone the option to do something that's going to be very inefficient18:41
henrynashdolphm: agreed…it is not listed as an optional attribute18:41
henrynashdolphm: OK…so for Juno…we pull it from the spec…but leave the client and LDAP support as is?18:42
bknudsonwhat's the client support?18:42
dstanekso the implementation (using extras) would download the entire table and record by record serialize JSON to find the match?18:42
jamielennoxbknudson: just an 'extra'18:42
henrynashI think we support it in the user entity class18:42
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jamielennoxwe support anything that is returned from the server as an attribute on the user object (or any object)18:43
bknudsonI was wondering if the client requires email for a new user or has filtering by email or something.18:43
dolphmhenrynash: the client support can be undocumented & pushed into **kwargs18:43
jamielennoxon creation it's just named in the param list but we don't treat it special18:43
gyeehenrynash, but compliance is deployment-specific right, if one needs to encrypt/obfuscate a field, roll their own driver18:43
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gyeeI would think PII and API are two separate issues18:44
henrynashgyee: well yes, but not sure we should ship something that by default risks security defects18:44
dolphmhenrynash: ++18:45
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bknudsonThe following data clearly classify as PII: Email address, Login name, screen name, nickname, or handle18:45
bknudsonthat's from wikipedia18:45
gyeeso we are going to encrypt username now18:45
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dstanekbknudson: ++18:45
dstanekcan we not store PII in keystone?18:46
henrynashbknudson: hhmm, user name is PII and we don’t encrypt that18:46
morganfainberggyee, an argument to why we should go to id-only in the tokens >.>18:46
gyeesecurity is a process, software is a tool18:46
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morganfainbergdstanek, while username is PII, you don't need to typeically encrypt it, just prevent it leaking out iirc18:47
gyeejust like a knife, it can be both a weapon or tool :)18:47
morganfainbergdstanek, same for some of the other PII items. Some do *need* to be encrypted if stored18:47
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dolphmso i think it's fair to say we need to have this discussion outside the scope of Juno :)18:48
lbragstadhow do you go about drawing the line though?18:48
morganfainbergdolphm, ++18:48
ayoung#link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personally_identifiable_information18:48
dolphmhenrynash: re-propose for kilo and we can continue in the spec review?18:48
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henrynashmorganfainberg: one thing I wondered was wether we had to leave PII info out of teh collection of users returned in list_users calls18:48
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bknudsonI guess I wonder why we would treat email specially... how about allowing filtering on any of the "extras"?18:48
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dstanekmorganfainberg: i don't think we would store anything that needed to be encrypted at rest18:48
gyeedolphm, ++, lets talk more on this later18:48
morganfainberglbragstad, i think there are some explicitly listed (depending on the compliance standard) that need it18:48
henrynashdolphm: OK18:48
lbragstadmorganfainberg: ok18:49
dstanekthis is the doc we used to use when dealing with PII for PCI compliance - http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-122/sp800-122.pdf18:49
dolphmbknudson: because i don't want to expose anything more about 'extras' to the API - extras needs to die18:49
morganfainberglbragstad, what dstanek said, we don't store anything (directly) that needs encryption at rest (i think)18:49
bknudsonsince we're heading towards federation I'd expect us to leave listing users to the provider.18:49
dolphmwe don't need first class support for an undocumented feature that we're never going to be good at supporting18:49
morganfainbergdolphm, ++ extras dead = good18:49
dolphmbknudson: ++18:50
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henrynashdolphm: the ability to store additional info with keystone entities is well used, I think18:50
dstanekdolphm: i had a patch to delete it a while ago because i hated extras18:50
jamielennoxdolphm: ++ to killing extras18:50
dolphmdstanek: lol should have put it up!18:50
morganfainberghenrynash, doesn't mean it shouldn't die :P18:50
dstanekdolphm: i doubt it'll be easy to merge now, but if it is i will18:51
dolphmhenrynash: having it used at all means we need to be careful about removing it :(18:51
morganfainberghenrynash, maybe support it as an extension with a big "DONT DO THIS" warning block :P18:51
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gyeemorganfainberg, make sure no one waits for you in the parking lot after you kill it :D18:51
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morganfainberggyee, lol18:51
dstanekhenrynash: what do people use it for?18:51
bknudsondstanek: email18:51
jamielennoxi think maybe we need  config option for disable_deprecated which turns deprecations into 404s to let people test this stuf18:51
morganfainbergdstanek, metacloud uses it a lot, tracking cost centers etc,18:51
dolphmjamielennox: ++18:51
dstanekbknudson: i know that one :-P18:52
dolphmfatal_deprecations = True18:52
dolphmraise 501's or something when you hit a deprecation18:52
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jamielennoxdolphm: yep, doesn't matter what just so that it fails18:52
henrynashdstanek: additioal user info relating to products built on top of OPenStack/Keystone for example18:52
jamielennoxwouuld be useful even to see what the gate was using that it shouldn't18:52
dolphmjamielennox: oslo has some sort of support for that from a logging perspective, i forgot what action it took on fatal18:53
dolphmalright, last few minutes:18:53
dolphm#topic OSprofiler & Keystone integration18:53
*** openstack changes topic to "OSprofiler & Keystone integration (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:53
dolphmboris-42: o/18:53
boris-42dolphm hi there18:53
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103368/18:53
dolphm#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/114856/18:53
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boris-42dolphm I had to rebase python client patch18:53
boris-42dolphm let me show the sample of trace that we can get with these patches18:54
boris-42#link http://boris-42.github.io/ngk.html18:54
boris-42^ so this is sample of trace that goes through 3 services (nova, glance & keystone)18:54
boris-42booting VM operation18:54
ayoungboris-42, the assumption is that the middleware would be explicitly added to the pipeline, and not even enabled under normal circumstances, right?18:54
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dstanekdolphm, jamielennox: IIRC setting fatal_deprecations in the config would raise a strange exception18:54
boris-42ayoung it should be enabled by default18:55
ayoungboris-42, no it shouldn't18:55
jamielennoxdstanek: it exists though?18:55
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ayoungsecurity trumps profiling18:55
boris-42ayoung what kind of security issues?18:55
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dstanekboris-42: i mentioned in one of the reviews that i think the middleware can't be enabled by default18:55
* ayoung takes that question as rhetorical18:55
boris-42ayoung nope18:55
ayoungboris-42, its a great idea18:56
boris-42ayoung I really spend half of year18:56
ayoungbut not on by default18:56
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boris-42ayoung to make it possible to keep turned on by default18:56
dstanekin my view it is optional functionality18:56
ayoungoptional, and easy to enable18:56
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boris-42ayoung it is hard to get it enabled in gates18:56
boris-42ayoung end if every user will need to turn it on by hand nobody will use it..18:56
boris-42ayoung and I really don't see any big issue18:57
ayoungboris, I think you will find that it gets used18:57
boris-42ayoung with security18:57
boris-42ayoung really what kind of security ?18:57
boris-42ayoung only admin can trigger it and only admin can fetch data18:57
jamielennoxboris-42: it's not something that will get deployed by hand, this stuff will get added to puppet so enabling across everything shouldn't be hard18:57
ayoungboris-42, I take it you want data from gate?18:58
boris-42ayoung yep18:58
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boris-42ayoung in rally perfromance jobs18:58
boris-42ayoung that you have18:58
ayoungboris-42, then enable it in devstack18:58
boris-42ayoung so profling + benchmark18:58
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boris-42ayoung it will take about 1 year18:58
bknudsonthe profiling stuff just doesn't happen if the client doesn't request it.18:58
boris-42bknudson +118:58
boris-42bknudson it happens only if admin trigger it18:58
boris-42bknudson and only for his request18:58
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ayoungboris-42, what you want is devstack, not the rest of the world18:59
boris-42bknudson even if user knows secret key it won't be able to trigger data18:59
dstaneki'm also not a fan of it automatically configuring itself - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103368/10/bin/keystone-all18:59
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boris-42dstanek hm but I added CONF option18:59
boris-42dstanek https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103368/16/keystone/common/profiler.py18:59
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bknudsonit logs all the db queries... that's pretty neat19:00
boris-42bknudson you can add in any place19:00
boris-42bknudson new points19:00
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boris-42bknudson e.g. during benchmarking in gates put just any amount of points19:00
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boris-42bknudson and get them on graph19:00
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bknudson"statement": "SELECT 1", -- pretty exciting stuff19:01
dolphmboris-42: this is a lot of copy/pasting around :(19:01
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boris-42dolphm ?19:01
dolphmboris-42: i left review comments19:01
boris-42dolphm about api-paste.ini19:01
morganfainbergdolphm, at time19:01
boris-42dolphm I would prefer to keep it in19:01
dolphmboris-42: you should be pulling your boiler plate text from osprofiler so you don't have to maintain it everywhere19:02
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boris-42dolphm can we continue in keystone chat?19:02
dolphmooh, we're over time19:02
dolphmi had my head in gerrit19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit is offline for project renames. ETA 1645."19:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 19 19:02:15 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:02
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openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-19-18.00.html19:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-19-18.00.txt19:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-08-19-18.00.log.html19:02
fungibefore we startmeeting, let me fix the channel topic real fast19:02
*** ChanServ changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:02
fungithat's better19:02
jeblair#startmeeting infra19:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 19 19:02:42 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:02
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jeblair#link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:02
jeblair#link actions from last meeting: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-12-19.02.html19:03
jeblair#topic  Actions from last meeting19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
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jeblairjeblair Publish python-jenkins 0.3.3 (last release without pbr) tarball to pypi19:03
jeblairi did not do that19:03
jeblair#action jeblair Publish python-jenkins 0.3.3 (last release without pbr) tarball to pypi19:03
jeblair#topic  Priority Specs (jeblair)19:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Specs (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:04
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jeblairhey, so what with the fact that we're constantly swamped with reviews....19:04
fungiwe should review those19:04
jeblairsome projects have taken to highlighting changes that are a priority19:04
jeblairand i thought maybe a good first step for that would be specs19:05
fungiwholeheartedly agree19:05
jeblairso these are some specs that are really strategic for what we want to do this cycle (and probably next too :)19:05
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jeblair#link priority spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100363/19:06
jeblair#link priority spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/99990/19:06
jeblair#link priority spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110730/19:06
jeblair#link priority spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110793/19:06
jeblairso if you have to pick some, those would be a good place to start19:06
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jeblairand i think maybe once we have some more specs approved, we might be able to prioritize the reviews that implement those19:06
fungisounds like a fantastic plan19:07
jeblairi don't know how formal we want to be about this, but i'm guessing that at least nominating these and communicating will probably help us a lot19:07
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anteayaa good start19:07
fungipart of the problem with review backlog is lack of explicit prioritization. i hope this helps as much as i think it will19:08
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jeblairso anyway, if i've missed something feel free to contact me and i'll consider it.  but i also want to keep the count fairly small and manageable19:08
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* krtaylor imagines a weighted review assignment to produce a prioritized list19:09
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jeblairkrtaylor: that would be great; we've imagined that for a few years but need a feature in gerrit to store the weight/priority/whatever19:09
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jeblairkrtaylor: maybe if the ci report plugin works out, that could be the next step19:10
jeblair#topic  email for gerrit third party ci accounts status (anteaya)19:10
*** openstack changes topic to "email for gerrit third party ci accounts status (anteaya) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:10
fungibut add to that wishlist feature, transitive weighting (association with a spec grants similar priority value)19:10
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anteayaso we used to require new gerrit accounts include the email for the gerrit account in the request19:11
anteayawe have now changed that requirement19:11
anteaya#link http://ci.openstack.org/third_party.html#requirements19:11
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anteayaand now require third party gerrit ci accounts to have a wikipage with contact info on it19:11
anteayaso the question is, how do we transition?19:11
jeblairanteaya: maybe you mean http://ci.openstack.org/third_party.html#requesting-a-service-account  ?19:12
fungii think the higher-order question which has been raised is first, do we transition (or keep contact info in both places)19:12
anteayalikely I do19:12
jeblairso, i was ambivalent about this, until on friday when i disabled 4 accounts19:12
anteayahow do you feel now, jeblair?19:13
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jeblairi wanted to send them mail, so i used the info in gerrit to get their addresses to cc them19:13
jeblairi would not have clicked through to the wiki to do that19:13
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krtaylorand, only about 30 have created wiki pages so far19:13
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jeblairkrtaylor: wow that's a lot :)19:13
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fungi(heh, "only about 30")19:13
clarkbya I am partial to having the info in gerrit too19:13
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krtaylorhehheh, well, I guess its a matter of how you look at it  :)19:14
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jeblairso i definitely still want them in the wiki, because i think all that info should be easily available for people wanting to learn about a system19:14
anteayahaving the email in gerrit means that mulitple accounts need separate email addresses19:14
fungiwhile i like having that info in gerrit, there are two complications which we've been living with so far but are pretty inconvenient19:14
fungiright, that's one19:14
fungiit's hard to explain to people19:14
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anteayathe need for separate emails is hard to explain?19:14
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fungiso they get it wrong and we iterate over new account requests several times19:15
jeblairbut i think that if we expect that when we perform administrative actions on those accounts that we cc them, then we should keep them in gerrit19:15
jeblairif we don't want to expect that, then i'm okay dropping them :)19:15
clarkbfungi: anteaya: what was the other?19:15
clarkbI am familiar with the email dances that have happened19:15
fungisurprisingly, yes. also because they often don't follow instructions and create an account or two through lp openid first with the same address19:15
anteayawe need to be able to email them efficiently19:15
fungisecond annoyance is that they can't change it. they have to ask us to change it19:15
clarkbfungi: gotcha19:16
anteayafungi: they don't follow instructions - describes newcomers to this group very well19:16
jeblairso the issue about having multiple accounts with the same address is mostly related to 'duplicate' lp accounts?19:16
fungiso i think if we do keep it in as a requirement, we need some better way of explaining it such that they're more likely to get it right the first time, and we need to also drive home that they should do everything in their power to not change what that address is19:16
jeblairrather than multiple ci systems operated by the same people?19:16
anteayaand them not following instructions and what to do about it deserves its own agenda item, in my mind19:16
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anteayasince it compounds so many other actions19:17
fungiwell, depends on what you count as "duplicate" because also sometimes they try to provide their personal e-mail address as contact info even though they already are a reviewer in gerrit with an account associated with that address19:17
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fungiand basically these don't come to light until we try to add the account and gerrit barfs19:18
fungimaybe explicit instructions explaining how to check that the address is not already in gerrit first before requesting the account?19:18
anteayado you think they would follow those instructions?19:19
anteayacreating better instructions tends to result in just different questions in channel or them falling down in different places19:19
anteayathe folks that would follow the new instructions also already follow the old ones19:19
jeblairwhat if we had a third-party-ci-announce list, and asked all 3p operators to subscribe to it, and sent administrative action notifications there19:20
fungii try not to assume anything about what anyone will actually do, just hope we can provide them with the greatest chance of getting it right the first time, understanding that english is often not their first language so reading english instructions may be hit-and-miss19:20
anteayawe can try19:20
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anteayaI know that others want this back and forth out of their mind space19:20
anteayaand I can't tell you how frustrated it makes me19:20
clarkbjeblair: thats a good idea19:20
anteayaI want to cry sometimes I get so tired19:20
clarkbjeblair: or just -infra with a subject?19:20
krtaylorwell, we could direct them to the third-party meetings to get started too19:20
anteayakrtaylor: that redirect usually happens in response to an email19:21
jeblairmy personal pov is that i'm not particularly concerned if a 3p operator gets the message that their system has been disabled, but i want to give them a reasonable chance of getting it :)19:21
jeblairwhich is why i did direct cc's on friday19:21
fungii definitely appreciate how the third-party ci operator community is starting to come together and provide examples/mentoring to one another. any way we can facilitate increases and improvements in that behavior means less work for infra in the long term19:21
anteayafungi: yes19:21
anteayame too19:21
jeblairbut a dedicated announce list that is easy to follow should get a fairly similar result, without needing email addresses in gerrit (and it makes it easier for us too)19:22
fungii think that's a great idea19:22
krtaylorwe are brainstorming how to best police ourselves19:22
anteayalet's try19:22
anteayaat least it will be different19:22
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jeblairclarkb: and to your point about -infra, that's kind of anticipating another thing i put on the agenda19:23
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anteayakrtaylor: yes we are getting to a better place19:23
krtaylorI like the maillist idea too, or a way to email blast everyone on the gerrit service group19:23
* wenlock wonders why requesting account isn't a commit request like everything else19:23
jeblair" separate mailing list for third-party ci account requests (jeblair) "19:23
anteayawenlock: oh these folks couldn't get that at all19:23
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grantbowany way to filter requests up front with a lookup for some of these known cases?19:23
jeblairwenlock: because we'd have to give a bot admin access :(19:23
anteayawenlock: have you read some of the interactions?19:23
wenlockmake a form that submits the commit request?19:23
dougwigwhat about a simple web form, which could do things like the duplicate check before accepting the submission?19:24
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anteayawell actually if I had more help responding to the existing emails I would feel way more supported19:24
jeblairwell, that specific thing is not an issue if we're willing to drop the email-in-gerrit requirement19:24
anteayaI feel very alone now19:24
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anteayaI would appreciate help way more than work on a web form19:24
krtayloranteaya, my bad19:24
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anteayakrtaylor: not at all, you are very supportive19:25
krtaylorI am plagued by poor mail reader/filters19:25
anteayakrtaylor: let's discuss how to fix that later?19:25
krtaylorthe mail list would be for infra announces to all third-party service accounts only?19:26
clarkbkrtaylor: I think jeblair is indicating it would be used for the account requests too19:26
jeblairso which way are people leaning?  a) anounce list and drop the gerrit email requirement?  b) drop the email requirement with no mitigating measures?  c) keep the email requirement?  possibly with automation to help make them more correct?19:27
jeblairclarkb: i think i have 2 lists in mind now19:27
fungiso third-party-ci-announce@lists.openstack.org (or whatever) as one possible action item, maybe a different (or combined) list for related discussion and requests (can wait for that topic in the agenda)?19:27
clarkbjeblair: gotcha19:27
anteayajeblair: I'd like to add before we remove anything19:27
clarkbjeblair: that works for me too and means 3p operators only need to subscribe to one?19:27
anteayajeblair: to assess the effectivness of whatever we decide to add19:28
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clarkbI really do like the list idea19:28
anteayaI'm fine trying it19:28
fungii like the mailing list with no other contact info collection option if 1. it is well received in the weekly third-party meeting and 2. we continue to be quick with the disable-first-worry-later approach19:28
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jeblairfungi: i intend to do 2 regardless :)19:29
anteayayay jeblair :D19:29
anteayaquick on the trigger19:29
fungiyeah. i agree that it's incumbent on the operators to subscribe to an ml and pay attention in case we let them know that whatever account was disabled why and it happens to be the one they maintain19:29
jeblairit's best for everyone in the long run if people are not annoyed by 3p ci systems :)19:30
anteayavery much so19:30
fungiassuming we want to do that (and give them a heads up that this is a requirement in some official documentation)19:30
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jeblairso let's segue into that for a bit19:30
jeblair#topic  separate mailing list for third-party ci account requests (jeblair)19:30
*** openstack changes topic to "separate mailing list for third-party ci account requests (jeblair) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:30
anteayawell I'm usually annoyed so I guess that is everybody else19:30
* anteaya has to stop ranting19:30
jeblairso i originally proposed this because i think there are some folks on the -infra list who probably don't care about our third-party account request workflow19:30
jeblairlike folks from other organizations using zuul, etc19:31
anteayaI'd say most19:31
pleia2they are like 80% of the non-subscriber emails I let through19:31
fungii worry that moving account requests to a separate ml, because the frequency of them has started to drown out conversation in the existing list, is indicative of other issues and we're going to see substantial scaling challenges if they continue19:31
pleia2I don't mind, I can listadmin new lists too, just a thing :)19:31
anteayaif they are a non-subscriber, do they get a nudge to encourage them to subscribe?19:32
pleia2a nudge can be given, I don't do so right now19:32
jeblairso i don't want the list to become a place where people can't actually talk about openstack infrostructure projects :)19:32
anteayafungi: I'd go with yes19:32
anteayapleia2: I'd like to request a nudge please19:32
anteayajeblair: yes, I get that19:32
anteayaI'm amazed at how long some threads go on19:32
pleia2anteaya: to infra ml, or to this new 3rd party one(s)?19:32
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anteayapleia2: both?19:33
jeblairfungi: what kind of scaling challenges?19:33
anteayapleia2: thanks19:33
fungihuman scaling challenges, working through the incoming requests19:33
anteayathanks fungi19:33
fungiunless we make it self-service or something longer term19:33
clarkbright there is quite a bit of handholding that seems to be done19:33
anteayathis group doesn't seem capable of self-serve19:33
clarkbfungi: even then I am not sure that it would remove the scaling issue. It would just help with the first part of it19:33
anteayathe ones that do get it are already openstack contributors19:34
krtayloranteaya, that is the key19:34
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fungianyway, it's tangential to the need for it to stop impacting the usability of the existing list, so i'm in favor of the split-out. could be the same list as the third-party-ci announcements if we want19:34
anteayadoesn't matter to me either way19:34
anteayatwo new lists, one new list *shrug*19:34
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krtaylorthe idea for patchset for creating an account isnt a bad one, it helps fix the contributor problem19:35
anteayaany change will have problems in the transition, the end goal just has to be clear for me19:35
jeblairso i think the proposal is:19:35
anteayakrtaylor: ah, except the panic for getting an email right becomes a panic for submitting a patch19:35
anteayathey don't have to set up accounts or sign a cla to send an email19:36
fungi"steps to request a new account: #1 subscribe to the ml. #2 check these assumptions are valid (list of assumptions). #3 post a request in the following format..."19:36
pleia2fungi: +119:36
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jeblaira low-volume announce list that we require all third-party operators to subscribe to; only infra has unmoderated posting access.  AND...19:36
jeblaira third-party ci admins list where new account and account maintenance requests are sent to19:37
clarkbwhat if (and this is just me brainstorming things) we force people to use lp/openid for these accounts19:37
pleia2which list do their own outage alerts go to?19:37
clarkbthen the request is simply for group membership?19:37
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jeblairthe third-party community would be welcome to participate in the second list to help new systems work through the process19:37
fungiclarkb: well, right now we don't allow web interface access for those accounts. it would be a paradigm shift19:37
clarkbfungi: right, but one that would mostly allow self service19:38
* anteaya notes that at krtaylor's request she is searching for a new word that means admins but isn't admins, she hasn't found one yet19:38
jeblairpleia2: why do they send out outage alerts?19:38
fungii think announcements list posts should also have the reply-to set to the discussion list of we go dual-list19:38
fungianteaya: i've called them operators. no idea if krtaylor sees a stigma with that term19:39
anteayakrtaylor: ?19:39
pleia2jeblair: some send them to -dev and get in trouble19:39
jeblairfungi: i think infra is the discussion list19:39
fungii also call myself a systems administrator, so i'm not entirely sure i understand teh concern19:39
krtaylornot a big deal really19:39
pleia2so it seems some do want to announce outage alerts, but maybe they shouldn't?19:39
fungijeblair: fair enough. we could set follow up to -infra in the headers then19:39
anteayaI'm fine with operators19:39
jeblairpleia2: if dev doesn't want announcements of third-party ci sytem outages, then perhaps dev doesn't want their third-party ci system at all and they can just close up shop and save everyone some work.  :)19:40
pleia2fair enough19:40
anteayapleia2: we addressed the need to announce outage alerts with the wikipage19:40
jeblairbut i _definitely_ don't want to see them; i think the only potential audience is in -dev.19:41
jeblair(i only care about systems that are posting, not systems that aren't)19:41
fungii guess it's reasonable for the third-party operators to update the wiki systems list with status information when they have/resolve an outage19:41
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pleia2anteaya: ok, guess I missed that, sorry19:41
fungias long as all the projects relying on input from these know where to look when they notice the absence of an expected vote on a change19:42
anteayapleia2: np19:42
anteaya#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ThirdPartySystems19:42
jeblairso let me draft some 'agreed' statements and you can tell me if we're really agreed19:42
anteayawe having pointed to it yet on the ml19:42
anteayafungi: yes19:42
grantbowanteaya: thanks for the link19:42
anteayaalso they need to announce status so their overall status in the project is uptodate19:42
anteayaas in they are communicating19:43
anteayaso they won't have their driver pulled from master19:43
anteayaso I get the need, we just need an agreed upon, used, non-spammy way to do it19:43
anteayagrantbow: welcome19:43
krtayloranteaya, we should put status on the individual template too19:44
anteayakrtaylor: I leave that magic to you, I am not opposed19:44
jeblairagreed create third-party announce ml which is low-volume, infra -> third-party broadcast only, expect all third-party admins to subscribe19:44
jeblairagreed create third-party request ml which is open subscription where third-party systems sent account requests19:44
jeblairagreed third-party accounts no longer need to provide gerrit email addresses19:44
jeblairagreed third-party system status goes in wiki page19:44
fungiagreed subscription to third party announcements list required of all operators, agreed separate third party account request mailing list where other operators are encouraged to help newcomers through the process19:44
jeblairdo those all look right? ^19:44
* krtaylor wishes he was a better magician19:44
clarkbjeblair: yup19:44
anteayajeblair: yes19:45
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fungijeblair: in favor, aye to all four19:45
anteayawhat does open subscription mean?19:45
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clarkbanteaya: it means anyone can join. like the -dev list19:45
anteayaclarkb: k, thanks19:45
jeblair#agreed create third-party announce ml which is low-volume, infra -> third-party broadcast only, expect all third-party admins to subscribe19:45
jeblair#agreed create third-party request ml which is open subscription where third-party systems sent account requests19:45
jeblair#agreed third-party accounts no longer need to provide gerrit email addresses19:45
jeblair#agreed third-party system status goes in wiki page19:45
fungianteaya: anyone who joins can post to the list19:45
anteayafungi: thanks19:45
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jeblairclarkb: to your point about lp accounts and group membership.  it's tempting, but i'm worried that they will be used the wrong way if they can be... but i think it merits further thought.19:46
anteayawho is the ml creator?19:46
anteayapleia2: is that you?19:46
clarkbjeblair: ya I think that is the biggest concern. people may use them to push code and other things19:46
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clarkbjeblair: so we may have to figure out gerrit side acls that make thigns safish19:46
pleia2anteaya: there is a file in config you update19:46
anteayaif there is an unimaginable wrong way to do something, this group will find it19:46
jeblairclarkb: maybe... maybe with sufficient acls we could get that to work.19:46
anteayathey should be quality control19:46
fungijeblair: clarkb: worth more thought. maybe we can restrict the access currently granted to normal users if they're in the systems group or whatever19:46
fungier, that19:46
anteayawho wants to create the patch?19:47
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anteayaI'm still conferencing so I am a bad choice19:47
anteayaI would otherwise19:47
pleia2it's an easy enough patch, I can do it19:47
fungii am happy to submit the change to create the mailing lists19:47
fungior pleia2 can to it!19:47
* fungi quickly backs away from the keyboard19:47
jeblairfungi, clarkb: i think we should proceed with what we've got (the only thing that may change is we may drop the request list), and plan out the other idea further19:47
jeblair#action pleia2 create new mailing lists19:48
anteayapleia2: thanks, link me for the review19:48
clarkbjeblair: sounds good19:48
clarkbjeblair: ya I think my brainstorming alternative will need more time and thought19:48
clarkbwhereas the list stuff is cheap and quick19:48
clarkbgood for now19:48
jeblairoh my, this meeting is almost all third-party this week19:48
jeblair#topic  comment syntax for third-party CI recheck (dougwig, from third-party CI meeting)19:48
*** openstack changes topic to "comment syntax for third-party CI recheck (dougwig, from third-party CI meeting) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:48
anteayawe are a rowdy bunch19:48
anteayado dougwig had to jet at half past19:48
fungiit's almost like the third-party operators need their own weekly meeting. oh, wait, they have one!19:49
jeblairwhoopsie; if people mention that in the agenda, i can accomodate19:49
anteayathe upshot is that third party doesn't want to break things like vmware did last week19:49
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anteayaso how should we recheck for now, until we can agree to how we should recheck long term?19:49
fungithis rolls into the next topic, so maybe we just cover both as one discussion19:49
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anteayaI have told them manual recheck is acceptable, not generated scripts19:49
krtaylorpleia2, can you tag the topic of the maillist patch third-party?19:50
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anteayawhat else should they know to safely recheck?19:50
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jeblairoh yeah, it's never okay to mass-recheck by leaving comments19:50
pleia2krtaylor: sure19:50
fungioh, how should they do mass rechecks? they should trigger them in whatever way their systems allow without leaving comments in gerrit to do so19:50
jeblairneither jenkins nor zuul requires that19:50
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anteayajeblair: yes, we covered not mass-rechecking in yesterday's meeting19:50
dougwighere's my topic intro: "hi there.  A topic came up in the third-party CI meeting, which was to refrain from using recheck.* as a prefix for triggering re-checks in 3rd party CI's, as it causes standard jenkins to also re-run.  What syntax/prefix should we use/standardize for retriggering a single third-party CI?"19:50
dougwig(i'm not really here)19:50
anteayawhich motivated the current agenda item19:51
anteayadougwig: yay19:51
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/109565/19:51
jeblairso there's a change that proposes a syntax.19:51
jeblairit has nothing but red votes19:51
anteayaso there is a conversation19:51
anteayathey just want to know what is safe which the conversation takes place19:51
anteayaso they aren't blocked until resolution of the conversation19:52
jeblairi think some people can't agree on the syntax, and i think some people (myself and fungi included) don't agree that third-party ci specific recheck comments should be used at all19:52
anteayaor is there a safe way19:52
fungithere are also a bug and an infra ml thread on this topic19:52
jeblairanteaya: what is the safe way to do a third-party specific recheck comment?19:52
anteayayes, that is the question19:52
anteayaI do believe19:52
fungi#link https://launchpad.net/bugs/135548019:52
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1355480 in openstack-ci "recheck/reverify comment_filter is too loose" [Undecided,Opinion]19:52
jeblairanteaya: there is no safe way, it's not supported or recommended19:52
clarkbI agree with jeblair and fungi19:53
clarkbits the wild west we don't enforce it19:53
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2014-August/001681.html19:53
clarkbthere is no "safe"19:53
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anteayaokay well this places those operators wanting to play by the rules in a difficult spot19:53
anteayaI don't know what to take back to them19:53
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anteayaI've worked so hard to get them to ask19:53
anteayaI would be really disapointed if I went back with "do whatever you want"19:54
fungithe rules say they should rerun their checks when someone leave a "recheck bug [0-9]+" or "recheck no bug" comment19:54
jeblairanteaya: i don't think i'd say that.  i think i'd say what fungi said.19:54
fungiat least in present documentation19:54
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dougwigi mean, something like "thirdparty-recheck-a10", or anything that will never match your jenkins, is all we want.19:54
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fungidougwig: i'm unconvinced there's value in rerunning only one ci system19:55
jeblairi believe we attempted to have a stronger indication that nothing else should be supported, but that did not gain unanimous approval.  thus the 3p ci operates in an undefined area if they do anything more.19:55
dougwigwe can make it up; wasn't sure if there should be a standard.19:55
anteayais dougwig's suggestion safe?19:55
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dougwigfungi: retrying false negatives. we are not all as perfect as infra.  :)19:55
fungiit's not like we allow developers to only rerun the jobs which fail and leave the passing results for other jobs. it should eb all-or-nothing19:55
jeblairyeah, everyone wants to make some super complicated language for controlling ci systems in comments19:55
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jeblairthat's an INSANE idea, and the only reason we do it at all is because our tooling is not good enough to support something else19:55
jeblairi mean, it's a horrible user interface for developers19:55
dougwigwe ask people to start commenting before they vote, to shake out bugs.  not every failure is a fault in the submitted code (many are not for 3p)19:56
jeblairand we should minimize it's use totally19:56
anteayaI think they are just trying their best to not step on infra's toes and allow functionality they percieve as necessary19:56
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jeblairi don't think we'd be upset if someone says "recheck".  i mean right now we re-run jobs all the time for no particular reason :)19:56
asselin_the issue with recheck bug # is that all ci systems will start over again. As there are more and more, the probability of all of them passing gets smaller, especially when there are intermittent bugs.19:56
anteayawe just don't want to create a scenario like vmware did that brought down zuul last week19:57
jeblairanteaya: these are two separate issues19:57
anteayajeblair: yes19:57
clarkbanteaya: a different syntax doesn't solve that problem19:57
anteayaclarkb: oh19:57
anteayawe are almost at time and I feel we are at a stalemate for now19:57
clarkbanteaya: at least as long as clean check si a thing any comment can trigger CI19:57
fungianteaya: the main problem i saw is that a bot went and left hundreds of useless comments on changes19:57
jeblairanteaya: we will disable any account for spamming regardless of what syntax they use19:57
anteayaso no bots19:58
anteayajeblair: true19:58
funginot no bots. just bots should only leave comments which contain useful information for reviewers19:58
dougwigwhat i'm hearing is that you think the mechanism is a bad idea in general.  i think that's overly optimistic in terms of the quality of all of these disparate CI systems.19:58
anteayaI think we covered not bots for comments, but I can cover that again19:58
anteayafungi: okay19:58
dougwigin an ideal CI world, it would not be needed.  the world is not currently ideal.  or even close.19:58
fungi(useful and nonredundant)19:58
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anteayafungi: k19:59
jeblairdougwig: there's an opportunity in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/109565/19:59
fungii'm also worried that we risk sending a signal that it's okay for things to work poorly, and we should give up bothering to improve that19:59
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jeblairdougwig: right now, no one likes that change at all.  perhaps if even a handful of people could agree on what would be a good idea, it will go somewhere.19:59
anteayaI'm all for improving our signalling19:59
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anteayaand we have no more time20:00
jeblairor maybe someone should add authentication to zuul's webui so recheck requests don't have to go in comments :)20:00
jeblairthat would be a far better use of all of our time, i think.20:00
jeblairthanks everyone!20:00
dougwignot specifying a syntax will result in every 3p system making up its own recheck trigger.  i think the idealist case won't fly in reality.20:00
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anteayasorry we took the whole meeting, but thanks for letting us talk about these items20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 19 20:00:37 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-19-19.02.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-19-19.02.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-08-19-19.02.log.html20:00
ttxAnyone here for the TC meeting ?20:00
jeblairttx: o/20:01
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bswartzttx: I'm here20:01
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jraimI'm here for the Barbican discussion20:01
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ttxmarkmc, mikal, vishy, markmcclain, jaypipes, sdague, dhellmann : around ?20:01
* dhellmann joins from a cab in Chicago and may disappear 20:01
russellbdhellmann: ooh, mad skills20:01
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ttxmordred and devananda are out, devananda gave proxy powerz to jeblair20:01
jeblairas a followup aside from the last special meeting; this week the infra meeting was almost entirely about third-party ci; that's something that has a looming scaling problem20:02
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ttxThat shall make enough members20:02
ttx#startmeeting tc20:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 19 20:02:39 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:02
ttxThe agenda for today:20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee20:02
ttx#topic Manila for incubation (part 2)20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Manila for incubation (part 2) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:03
ttxWe have two changes up for review on that:20:03
ttx* Propose Shared File Systems program: (https://review.openstack.org/111149)20:03
ttx* Propose Manila for incubation (https://review.openstack.org/113583)20:03
ttxLast week we had the first part of this discussion20:03
ttxSeveral points were raised, which I'll try to summarize20:03
ttx1. The Cinder relationship (code was originally copied as a template, but now evolved on its own, common code is being osloified, Manila can pull architectural improvements directly from Nova)20:03
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ttx2. Community size/width with most commits coming from same person(s) and same company20:04
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ttx3. The driver/vendor aspect (avoid another Neutron with no first-party driver really viable, getting swamped by driver requests, relationship with glusterfs)20:04
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ttx4. User interest (is it something people want)20:04
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ttxI think all the discussion last week falls into on of those 4 points20:04
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ttxShout if you think I missed something20:05
bswartzgood summary20:05
ttxI don't think any of those was seen as a blocker to incubation though.20:05
ttxThe main concern was more our ability to handle more projects in incubation, but that's external to Manila itself20:05
bswartzI think all of those above points were responded to, but if anyone wants elaboration let me know20:06
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russellband our conversation about that mainly ended up focusing on how to ensure higher quality20:06
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russellband not so much about # of projects20:06
ttxThose 4 points were mostly things to carefully watch for DURING incubation20:06
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ttxrussellb: yes20:06
ttxAlso much more concerns in graduating a project to integrated, compared to accepting another project in incubation20:07
russellbyes, agree20:07
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annegentleright also20:07
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* ttx looks at the state of those reviews20:08
markmcnice summary20:08
russellbi was waiting on the meeting before voting20:08
markmcdevananda has a -1 based on process AFAICT20:08
ttxWe have a -1 from deva on the program thing, but I still think separate changes is the right way to propose this20:08
jeblairrussellb: same here20:08
russellbi think ttx responded to deva20:08
markmcthat approving the program without the project doesn't make sense20:08
russellbof course, he's not around to see the response20:08
ttxrussellb: jebalir has the power to reverse it though20:08
russellbah yes20:09
ttxjeblair: even20:09
ttxso unless we have other questions to throw, I suppose we need to wait for votes to be cast on those proposals20:09
ttxI'll approve if that reaches 7 YES, and if it doesn't reach such bar during the week, we'll discuss it again next week to try to see what blocks it20:10
annegentle#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/111149/20:10
ttxComments on that before we switch to next topic ?20:10
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markmcclainwe've pointed out the lack of community… would it be reasonable to know if there is a plan to help grow it?20:10
bswartzare you going to hold votes on both reviews this week?20:11
* russellb +1d both of them fwiw20:11
ttxmarkmcclain: sure that's reasonable20:11
bswartzor just the program?20:11
ttxbswartz: both20:11
annegentlebswartz: my sense was that your community was waiting for incubation?20:11
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ttxmarkmcclain: I think the general idea is that the incubation status should result in a surge in contributions20:11
ttxmarkmcclain: as we've seen with barbican, which is the next topic20:11
russellbi guess we should clarify the incubation expectations20:12
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bswartzannegentle: yes there are several developers who will be able to dedicate more time once they can tell their managers it's a real project20:12
russellbbut it's basically the 4 concerns you brought up at the beginning, i think20:12
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dhellmannThat won't be automatic though. Is there a plan to onboard new contribs?20:12
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markmcclainttx: right with barbican there were identified companies that said they'd step in if incubated20:12
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bswartzI'm not sure why incubation matters so much to those managers but it seems to be important20:12
ttxdhellmann: on the other hand, if they fail to attract enough people they can be de-incubated alright :)20:13
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jeblairyeah, it's not the first time we've heard that20:13
russellbyep, not graduating is certainly a possible outcome, and that's OK20:13
dhellmannSeems like a plan is a plus, and a lack may not be a blocker20:13
markmcclainbswartz: labeling is definitely critical for resource allocation20:13
russellbi think it's an obvious value add ot openstack, nothing is competing with it, we should give it a shot to grow20:13
ttxrussellb: ++20:14
vishyo/ (sorry i’m late, reading scrollback)20:14
markmcclainrussellb: +120:14
jeblairbut yeah, i agree, best to maximize chance of success by being prepared to recruit and onboard once/if you get the label20:14
bswartzvishy: just +1 my review :p20:14
* ttx gives vishy 2 min to read scrollback before moving on to next topic20:14
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vishygo ahead20:14
annegentletwo whole minutes? :)20:14
ttx#topic Graduation review: Barbican (part 1)20:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Graduation review: Barbican (part 1) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:14
ttxI live in a separate timespace continuum20:15
ttxSo.. At every end of cycle we look at currently-incubated projects, discuss progress20:15
ttxand see if any are ready to be made a part of the next OpenStack integrated release development cycle20:15
ttxToday we start this end-of-Juno-cycle process by looking into Barbican, which started incubation back in March20:15
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ttxjraim: o/20:16
jraimI'm here20:16
ttxOn the contributor diversity side, there was undeniable progress in Juno, which is great to see20:16
jraimyep, we're very happy with the folks that have been contributing20:16
ttxjraim: what would be your assessment of the current state of Barbican in incubation?20:16
redrobot#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Barbican/Integration20:16
jraim^^ We put a quick wiki page on our status for integration20:16
ttxLooking at http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/043360.html my gut feeling is that there are also pretty critical features still being worked on at this point20:17
russellbwhat integration work has been done?20:17
russellbcompleted, i should say20:17
ttxthe first "integrated" cycle is busy enough already so that should probably be considered once the key features are off the ground20:17
jraimrussellb: some of that is on the wiki (status wise anyway)20:18
* jaypipes rushes into meeting...20:18
jraimttx: We have mostly focused on technical work, especially with the onboarding of a lot of new contribs20:18
russellbjraim: my reading was that no integrations are completed?20:18
jraimWe have done some work on translating documenation over, but I wouldn't say that was complete yet20:18
ttxrussellb: (status=MET) means completed20:19
russellbthis one is STATUS=???20:19
ttxrussellb: or do you mean integration with some project?20:19
russellbintegraiton with some projects, yes20:19
ttxoh right ignore me20:19
ttxIt would also not be bad to have at least one integrated project being able to make use of Barbican, so that we check basic use case / collaboration / interoperability20:19
russellbi think for this to graduate, i would expect integration with nova to be completed, for example20:19
russellbright, i'm trying to see if there is at least one ...20:20
annegentlejraim: do you have user docs anywhere already?20:20
jraimthe main integrations are with neutron, nova and cinder20:20
ttxas you would be expected to complete most of them during the first integrated cycle20:20
russellbjraim: are any merged?20:20
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jraimrussellb: not really. there are reviews out for all three, btu I would classify them as WIP20:20
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russellbI don't think it makes sense to graduate without integration completed with at least one other integrated project in this case20:20
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ttxrussellb: I would be on the same line20:20
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jraimannegentle: yes, they are our tree....redrobot is digging up the link20:21
ttxjraim: Back in June there was a discussion on a barebones CA for easier testing -- was there progress on that ?20:21
jeblairit sounds like things are heading in a really good direction, but probably need more time20:21
russellbok so in that case, i think i'd say my feeling is "keep up the really great work, let's talk again next cycle"20:21
ttxjeblair: yes, I feel like integrating now would do more harm than good20:21
redrobotannegentle we've been working on user docs in the barbican tree20:21
redrobot#link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/barbican/tree/docs20:21
jraimttx: RedHat has contributed dogtag code, which is a pure software CA that can be used for that20:21
ttxit generally feels a bit early for tackling integration in the next cycle20:21
jraimbut we are struggling with 3rd party testing, especially around physical devices20:21
russellbbut i'd like to reiterate that i think you guys are doing a great job20:22
russellbvery happy about the progress you've made20:22
jeblairjraim: is the dogtag stuff running?20:22
russellbjraim: i tihnk every project trying to do 3rd party testing is struggling in some way with it20:22
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jraimrussellb: I wouldn't disagree with you assessment. I'm happy with where we are going, but most of the work this cycle has been technical and we haven't gotten a lot of work on the integrations done20:22
ttxyeah, frankly back when we incubated you I thought there would be 0% chance we would discuss integration now20:22
dhellmannAre those technical issues?20:22
markmcclainrussellb: same here really happy with their progress not sure graduation time is now20:23
jraimjeblair: the patches are merged, we are working through the testing issues20:23
annegentlejraim: I talked to Constanze at lunch (one of the writers) and basically the core-docs resources go towards core docs first... but I think that install docs and end user (CLI, Dashboard) docs are expected20:23
ttxbut it just seems to not be that far20:23
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russellbyeah, coming along nicely20:23
* dhellmann is experiencing lag20:23
ttxFrom a release management perspective, we did handle juno-2 but the jobs were not really there yet, so it's still a bit fresh20:23
jraimannegentle: agreed. We have more docs work to do.20:23
jeblairjraim: okay.  i think having really good first-party testing of the all-software path is critical; let me know if you need help20:23
ttxIt's just all a bit too fresh20:23
jraimjeblair: will do. We're looking at setting up turbohipster and the like to enable 3rd party test runs20:24
ttxjraim: Would you like to go through list of integration requirements to make sure we are on the same page on them ?20:24
* jaypipes sees no reason to rush graduation, or even the vote on it.20:24
jraimWe did have one question around horizon20:24
ttxi would like to insist that the list is not the complete set of arguments the TC can use, it's more like the minimal, consensual stuff that all TC members agree are a base for integration20:24
russellbin the case horizon integration makes sense, yes i think it shold be done before graduation20:24
jraimWhat needs to be completed for integration? and do we write that code or does someone else?20:24
jeblairjraim: yep i understand that device testing will be important to you; just want to make sure you know that can't be at the expense of the first-party software device path :)20:24
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jraimjeblair: agreed20:25
russellbjraim: ideally you, or in some sort of collaboration with horizon folks20:25
ttxjraim: we had both cases20:25
jraimrussellb: great. I'll go get some front-end time for that work then20:25
russellbnot necessarily you personally, but the projcet somehow bringing forward the resources would be ideal20:25
jraimrussellb: we'll go see what we can do. I think an initial integration won't be horribly complex20:26
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jraimOther question we had: for the answer questions requirements, is that ask.openstack or launchpad or both?20:26
jeblairjraim: i think just ask.o.o at this point20:26
russellbask.o.o generally preferred over launchpad answers these days20:26
ttxjraim: I would also recommend completing integration with one project, to serve as a key example of good integration / collaboration with established projects20:26
jraimokay, good to know20:26
russellblaunchpad answers was shut down for a lot of projects20:26
russellbjraim: i'd say openstack ML as well20:27
jeblairi think we stopped enabling lp?  we may need to turn off lp answers for barbican if it isn't already20:27
jraimttx: we are working hard with neutron and the john-hopkins folks are working on nova/cinder so we should be pretty far along on those fronts20:27
annegentlejraim: ask.o.org20:27
ttxheh, neutron is not the best guinea pig, they have a long backlog of things20:27
markmcclainjraim: the neutron integration is not likely to land in juno20:27
markmcclainttx: true20:27
jraimmarkmcclain: true. We want to get the work done, but juno seems like a stretch as this point20:28
annegentlejraim: and yes, turn off LP answers20:28
jraimannegentle: will do20:28
ttxif you have the choice, pick a slightly less busy project :)20:28
russellbof course they're all busy :)20:28
russellbvarying levels of busy20:28
ttxjraim: any other question on the integration requirements?20:28
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jraimnope, that's all we had20:28
jraimthanks for the help as always20:29
ttxOK, so let's try to summarize20:29
annegentlejraim: thanks for all the integration work so far20:29
* dhellmann reaches hotel and signs off for a few min 20:29
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* russellb is also in a hotel.20:29
ttx#info the TC is pleased with the progress Barbican has made during this first cycle in incubation, feels like it's still a bit fresh and early to consider graduation at this point20:30
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jraimagreed from our side20:30
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ttx#info Integration with at least oen project should be completed before graduation20:30
ttx#info continue the good job on getting a more diverse community20:30
* jeblair agrees with ttx while not in a hotel20:30
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ttxdoies that summarize it well?20:30
* markmcclain agrees and is in a hotel20:30
mikalSounds good to me from my house20:31
ttxjraim: thanks for coming, and keep up the good work!20:31
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jraimttx: thanks again all20:31
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ttx#topic New nominee for User committee20:31
*** openstack changes topic to "New nominee for User committee (Meeting topic: tc)"20:31
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ttxI would like to actively engage with people to see if they would be interested, but to do that I need names. Any suggestion?20:32
annegentleJon Proulx, Joe Topjian20:32
annegentlettx: I have contact info I can send you20:32
russellbNate from NSA20:33
annegentleSean Winn20:33
ttxI suggested Guillaume Aubuchon but haven't checked if he would have the time20:33
annegentleBeth Cohen20:33
annegentleoh and I haven't checked in with any of these names I'm mentioning, but I'd definitely nominate them20:33
russellba large enterprise user of some kind20:33
ttxCould you all send me names / contact info? I'll reach to them to check if they would be up to it, and we'll select the final nominee in a future meeting20:33
ttxPlease send names before the end of week20:34
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annegentle#action send ttx names/contact info for user committee nominees by Fri 8/2220:34
ttx#action ttx to reach to nominees to check if they would be up for the User Committe job first thing Monday morning20:34
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annegentleI guess that action should have said "all" -- how do I fix it with meetbot?20:35
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russellbyou can #undo, but ttx has already done something after you20:35
ttxaction is assigned to "send"20:35
ttxI guess that works20:35
annegentleah well20:35
ttx#topic Other governance changes20:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)"20:35
ttx* Rename marconi to zaqar (https://review.openstack.org/114770)20:35
* russellb proposes a ban on name changes20:36
jeblairthis is a thing that has happened ^20:36
annegentlepronounced "zah-caar"20:36
jeblairrussellb: i second that :)20:36
annegentlefor those who talk about things aloud20:36
ttxI think mikal's remark is valid, but jeblair just submitted on behalf of the zaqar crew20:36
mikalDid they give in to my demands?20:36
ttxmikal: jebalir proposed the change20:36
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ttxdammit jeblair did20:36
ttxjeblair: why is my keyboard mangling your name20:37
jeblairwell, the governance change is because now the governance repo points to the wrong project names :)20:37
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mikalI think even the text from that linked email would be sufficient20:37
mikalJust some sort of easy to find historical record20:37
ttxI guess that commit message can be expanded, yes.20:38
ttxAnyway, this is a housekeeping change20:38
jeblairupdated.  now everyone gets to vote again20:38
mikalHey, I'll update the commit message if Jim doesn't want to20:38
ttxjeblair: I'll approve it post-meeting if nobody objects (housekeeping change)20:39
ttxpost-meeting = as soon as I come back from urgent dental care tomorrow morning20:39
ttx* Update kite repo and add python-kiteclient (https://review.openstack.org/114772)20:39
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ttxSame here, will approve unless someone posts a -1 there20:39
ttx* Add repository glance.store to glance (https://review.openstack.org/107585)20:39
ttxThis one is blocked by Glance PTL virtual -1, and markwash is not back from vacation yet20:40
ttx(that I know of)20:40
* dhellmann returns20:40
ttxdhellmann: just in time for some interesting open discussion20:40
annegentlestop talking about dhellmann he's back!20:40
jeblairit's already in openstack/20:40
jeblairassuming that we correctly waiting for the ptl approval when creating that repo20:41
jeblairi would assert that the ptl has already agreed that it's in the program20:41
dhellmannannegentle: ha!20:41
* jeblair double checks that20:41
ttxjeblair: he posted a -1 on that review though20:41
ttx"-1 for just a few days20:41
ttxAt the mini summit, we were at a bit of a loss to remember the benefits that outweigh the extra integration costs.20:41
ttxWe're regrouping to discuss this issue this week and to re-evaluate."20:41
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ttxI don't feel we should bypass thatone20:41
ttx#topic Open discussion20:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:42
ttxSo I have a few things20:42
ttxzehicle_at_dell would like to propose a DefCore/TC call to give feedback on the Designated Sections strawman.20:42
jeblairwe (mordred) apparently did _not_ wait for the glance ptl before approving the repo creation20:42
ttxThat would happen sometimes later in the week or early next week.20:42
jeblairso that was an error on infra's part, sorry20:42
ttxHe explicitely mentioned it would be a call, not an IRC meeting20:42
jeblairif he rejects it, we'll move it out of openstack/20:42
ttxSo watch for announcements on the list(s)20:43
russellbboo for non-IRC, but fine :)20:43
dhellmannwe need to have a transcription service for those calls20:43
ttxdhellmann: i can probably make one up.20:43
dhellmannttx: not *quite* what I was looking for :-)20:44
russellbyou can make up a transcription service?20:44
russellbit's been long enough since the last TC blog post20:44
annegentleI type fast :)20:44
russellbanyone want to take a stab at writing one?20:44
jeblairdo we have a schedule for that?20:44
ttxI guess we should wait until the final decision on Manila20:44
annegentlerussellb: I can, by when?20:44
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russellbno schedule, been playing by ear so far20:45
ttxso that we actually announce something else than barbican continuing incubation20:45
russellbthe first few were every 2-3 weeks20:45
russellbyeah, maybe after next time20:45
ttxSince we have a bit of time there was a topic I wanted to discuss20:45
russellbjust want to make sure we keep it up20:45
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ttxShould we have dedicated TC members follow integrated/incubated projects ?20:45
russellbannegentle: much appreciated20:45
ttxThat is, rather than expect we can follow everythign everywhere, try to specialize and follow SOME projects we don't have a direct stake in ?20:46
markmcclainhow about a blog post of focusing on quality?20:46
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russellbttx: I like the idea in general20:46
ttxI feel like that would be very useful for incubated projects in particular20:46
russellbi think we assume too much that every project is looked after at the detail needed20:46
annegentlemarkmcclain: and the discussion on the future of the integrated release20:46
markmcclainrussellb: +120:46
dhellmannisn't that part of what the ptl should be handling, though?20:46
ttxTo be current on Barbican for this meeting, I read ML posts, blogposts, asked questions around...20:46
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annegentledhellmann: honestly I think PTLs could use support here from each other and from the TC20:47
annegentleeven if it's just a Q&A Hangout20:47
ttxdhellmann: the idea is that the TC would rely on a particular member to flag issues with projects20:47
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russellbthough we need to be careful with it ... don't want to create another "position"20:47
russellbwhere X is the "TC overlord" of Y20:47
dhellmannright, or "subcommittees" or whatever20:47
ttxI agree it's tricky, we don't want to be blind and rely on a single person either20:48
russellbI think our regular check-ins with projects are good, at least20:48
dhellmannttx: I can see the benefit, I just thought we already had someone to do that, but I guess we don't want to delegate our evaluation to the project20:48
bswartz+1 for PTL support group20:48
ttxit just feels like a lot of work to watch all projects and know enough about them for every discussion20:48
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bswartzalthough I don't get the hate mail that most PTLs do yet20:48
russellbttx: are you thinking specifc to incubation?20:48
russellbor more generally?20:48
mikalbswartz: I can send you some if you feel left out20:48
dhellmannannegentle: I'd be up for some sort of "office hours" thing periodically20:48
annegentle"I'm Anne G. and I'm an OpenStack PTL"20:49
ttxrussellb: I think it's more useful for incubation, since it's easier to overlook those projects20:49
* russellb nods20:49
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dhellmannannegentle: from 3 tenants to 12 steps?20:49
russellbttx: and maybe for integrated projects, a once per cycle status check is enough?20:49
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annegentle"It has been 3 days since my last hate mail"20:50
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ttxrussellb: but I also like that some members (devananda) took the time to deep dive into some projects flaws to get us the info we needed20:50
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* markmcclain wants to trade inboxes with annegentle20:50
russellbttx: incubated though right?20:50
russellbttx: totally agree this is something worth adding to our incubation process20:50
annegentlemarkmcclain: oh I can't even. Don't have enough. Ugh.20:50
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ttxI feel like we are supposed to follow all of them, and in practice we only follow a few, which creates dark areas that nobody looks into20:51
annegentlettx: so you're wanting to assure coverage20:51
russellbyeah that makes sense20:52
ttxrussellb: although if we want to scale the number of integarted projects, we won't be able to be current on all of them all the time20:52
russellbi generally feel like an integrated project should be able to stand on its own and do well without supervision :)20:52
vishyi agree I don’t really look deeply enough into the projects20:52
ttxSo maybe we can start with assigning "TC mentors" to Kilo incubated projects20:52
russellband a once-per-cycle "chat with the TC about status" should be OK20:52
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russellbbut for incubation, absolutely20:52
vishybut i think it is more important pre incubation and integration20:52
russellbvishy: yeah i've thought about that too20:52
russellbwhen we go to evaluate a project for incubation20:53
vishyas in have a couple of members deep dive with the project for a week20:53
russellbnot always clear who/if there has been a deep dive ...20:53
ttxI've been doing mentoring on the release integration side, but I'll be the first to admit I don't follow their progress very closely20:53
jogorussellb: I think that is being overly optimistic20:53
jogorussellb: (integrated standing on there own)20:53
russellbjogo: i did say "should"20:53
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russellbsaying what i think we should be able to expect.20:53
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ttxI usually try to catch up when we reach the end-of-cycle graduation review20:54
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ttxOK, I'll suggest it again when we start the Kilo TC session20:54
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ttx#action ttx to propose to Kilo TC members to have a TC mentor for each Kilo incubated project to follow their progress more closely20:54
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ttxYou might want to stay for the next meeting, we'll brainstorm around potential improvements to deisgn summits to try to make them more useful20:55
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ttxbased on midcycle feedback20:55
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ttxAnything else, anyone?20:55
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ttxDo we have someone volunteering to draft a TC article for when we'll have the votes in for Manila?20:56
russellbttx: annegentle20:56
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russellbannegentle: ping if you'd like another set of eyes on the draft20:57
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ttx#action annegentle will write the next TC  blogpost, waiting for final decision on Manila first20:57
russellbannegentle: do you have an openstack blog account?20:57
annegentlerussellb: awesome thanks.20:57
ttxannegentle: I think you already have a openstack.org blog account20:57
annegentlerussellb: used to, they don't really exist any more?20:57
russellbthey dont?20:57
annegentleunless I'm retro vintage?20:57
russellbi've been using a wordpress account to post20:57
ttxannegentle: if not we can get taht clarified20:57
russellbstefano hooked me up20:58
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ttxOh, and please have a look at the meeting backlog, I think we can fit all discussions before September 16 deadline20:59
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ttxjeblair: the wiki is asking me to long in for the 3rd time today. Did we change anything on our side?21:00
ttxlog in21:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 19 21:00:38 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-19-20.02.html21:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-19-20.02.txt21:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-08-19-20.02.log.html21:00
ttxdhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ?21:01
gordco/ (sitting in for eglynn)21:01
ttx#startmeeting project21:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Aug 19 21:01:27 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)"21:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'project'21:01
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ttxOur agenda for today is available at:21:01
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting21:01
ttx#topic News from the 1:1 sync points21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "News from the 1:1 sync points (Meeting topic: project)"21:01
ttxHere is the log link:21:01
ttx#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-08-19-08.01.html21:02
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ttxTrove and Heat were skipped due to midcycle meetups. We missed Glance as well, ptl in vacation21:02
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ttxdolphm wanted to raise attention to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/113294/ which blocks their high-prio keystone-to-keystone-federation blueprint21:02
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ttxso requirements-core can help there ^21:02
stevebakerhere for Heat21:02
dolphmit's worth noting that it requires a binary dependency21:03
zanebttx: I'm sending stevebaker on over for Heat questions21:03
ttxzaneb: ok, thx!21:03
ttxdolphm: is that the only choice for SAML in Python?21:04
dhellmanndolphm: is that in the image infra has for the testing systems?21:04
mtreinishttx: https://wiki.python.org/moin/SAML21:04
dolphmttx: i can't answer that myself - marekd stevemar ^21:04
dhellmannI assume so, if the requirements installation job passed21:04
dolphmdhellmann: not sure of that either - how do i check?21:05
dolphmdhellmann: assuming you're referring to xmlsec121:05
dhellmanndolphm: yeah, I'd have to ask someone in -infra, but I think if the tests for that requirements change passed you're ok21:05
clarkbif this is needed by unittests we need to add it explicitly21:05
dhellmannI do see a couple of other saml packages on pypi21:05
clarkbif it is only on the devstack side of things then devstack takes care of it21:05
clarkband our image machinery will cache packages that devstack says it needs21:06
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ttxThe lasso lib is packaged in Ubuntu at least21:06
dhellmannclarkb: are the images for the unit tests the same as the image for the requirements check jobs?21:06
clarkbdhellmann: no, requirements check jobs are devstack based21:06
dolphmdhellmann: cool. the catch might be that we need to issue saml docs, not just read/verify them21:06
stevemardolphm, ttx i think so, the others are fairly out of date, or not as functional21:06
jeblairare we setting ourselves up for more pain similar to lxml?21:06
clarkbdhellmann: so very minimal, then devstack installs the deps21:06
marekdstevemar: dolphm ttx: agreed with stevemar.21:07
dhellmannclarkb: hmm, ok. I knew it was devstack-gate, but I didn't realize it ran devstack itself.21:07
ttxjeblair: could you elaborate on lxml pain?21:07
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ttxI remember pain due to code copies, but i suspect it's not the pain you're referring to21:08
clarkbthe problem with lxml is that if I pip install `python-keystoneclient` as a dependency of something else without some dev packages in place lxml won't build21:08
clarkbnow keystoneclient doesn't work because the rest of its dependencies were never installed21:08
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ttxclarkb: ok21:09
dolphmclarkb: keystoneclient shouldn't *require* lxml, nor should keystone21:09
clarkbit breaks the simple use case of use cloud21:09
dhellmannis this for keystone, or keystone client?21:09
dolphmclarkb: but of course it's in the requirements.txt .... i'll follow up on that :)21:09
clarkbdhellmann: client21:09
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dhellmannok, then do we know if that binary dependency is available for windows and mac platforms?21:10
jeblairdolphm: i think mordred proposed a change to try to remove it, and then found out why it was required?21:10
dolphmdhellmann: this will be for keystone first. keystoneclient later, marekd?21:10
* jeblair digs21:10
clarkbjeblair: yup, the xml.etree and lxml.etree objects are different21:10
dhellmanndolphm: if it's in the client, what impact will that have one cloud users not running on linux?21:10
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dolphmjeblair: it should only be required for a plugin, but i could be wrong21:11
clarkbthere is a tag search or some such in lxml.etree that xml.etree dones't have and keystoneclient uses. So keystoneclient could write a manual search using xml.etree21:11
ttxWe don't have to solve this one now, but since it blocks a major Juno keystone feature, it would be great to have closure on that issue sooner rather than later21:11
marekddolphm: i don't think keystoneclient will need it at all. It will send openstack token, get assertion, and pass it to a remote keystone.21:11
dolphmsame for xmlsec121:11
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ttxso maybe we can move to a thread21:11
alexpilottidhellmann: lxml is available for Windows21:11
dolphmttx: ++21:11
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jeblairdolphm: yeah, it is, but i think it's a tested one, so we still need it21:11
dhellmannalexpilotti: what about the new dependency for this saml lib?21:11
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ttxnow that people are all excited about it21:11
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ttx#info Adding pysaml2 dependency to global requirements is not a slam dunk -- watch out for upcoming ML thread21:12
jeblairdolphm: oh, he moved it to test-requirements, so actually i don't know what was wrong with his change: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/114701/2/test-requirements.txt21:12
ttx#action dolphm to push pysaml2 requirements addition to -dev ML21:12
jeblairbut yeah, if we are able to solve the lxml issue, that will be really nice for users, and i wouldn't want to backslide on it21:13
ttx#topic Other program news21:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Other program news (Meeting topic: project)"21:13
ttxAny other program with a quick announcement ?21:13
mtreinishnothing from me21:13
clarkbjust a reminder that infra is updating tox and defaulting test nodes to trusty tomorrow21:13
mtreinishoh, except for the devstack governance change being merged21:13
clarkbthis is ahead of feature freeze so should be fine and I have done quite a bit of testing21:13
clarkbdo ping if you notice oddities21:13
stevebakerI don't think heat is even close to working with new tox21:14
gordci think we're good in ceilometer. if we can get QA help on grenade testing that'd be cool :) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10235421:14
ttxWe have FPF coming up Thursday for most projects, so I expect a surge in last-minute change uploads21:14
jeblairstevebaker: it's a one line change to fix it21:14
ttxfollowed by one week of high gate activity21:14
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ttxfollowed by one week of pure craziness21:14
ttxfollowed by one week of feature freeze exceptions21:14
stevebakerjeblair: I tried zeroing the seed but there were still test failures, haven't had a chance to look into it yet21:15
ttxOK, anything else before we move to next topic?21:16
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ttx#topic Design summit format evolution (can we make that time as efficient as midcycle meetups ?)21:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Design summit format evolution (can we make that time as efficient as midcycle meetups ?) (Meeting topic: project)"21:16
ttxSo... Somewhere lost in the Nova core requirements thread we have an interesting discussion21:16
ttxNoting that mid-cycle meetups are quite successful at aligning key contributors culture, reaching consensus and generally getting things done21:17
ttxWhat makes them so needed is partly because we fail to reach such alignment at the Design Summits, which are in theory designed for that21:17
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ttxSo I would like to use the remaining time in this meeting to brainstorm21:17
ttxBrainstorm things we could still change for the Kilo Design Summit in Paris to make it our most worthwhile F2F time of the cycle again21:17
ttxWe can't really fix the fact that it happens the same week as the conference21:18
mikalSo, first difference I notice21:18
clarkbstevebaker: I tested it and it works with zeroed seed21:18
mikalWith the mid-cycle, we had a list of topics and then found speakers21:18
stevebakerclarkb: ok, I'll give it another crack21:18
mikalWith the summit, we take things from a list of proposed sessions21:18
ttxbut we can fix the format of the sessions, or dedicate some open time to core discussions21:18
jogomikal: ++21:18
mikalWell, I'm going to try brainstormging the topic list as a group this time21:18
mikalAnd then finding speakers for each "winning" topic21:19
jogoone thing the midcycles are really poor at is cross all project issues21:19
dhellmannsomeone on the list mentioned no "info dump" sessions, which I think is mostly a good idea, with possible exceptions21:19
ttxFrom my perspective, each program gets time slots and should do what' sthe best use they have for it21:19
dhellmannmikal: I like that approach21:19
jeblairttx: ++21:19
stevebakerIf you're not a project which has sessions for the entire summit then the pods can resemble what happens at a mid-cycle meetup21:19
jogoI think it would be nice to focus more attention on the cross project things21:19
reed jogo: +121:19
dhellmannjogo: excellent point, maybe more cross-project sessions21:19
gordcmikal: how do you decide the 'winners'?21:19
reedand interaction with users21:19
dhellmannstevebaker: +121:19
ttxIf the 40-min slots prevent anything...21:19
jeblairapparently the idea of combining slots to make bigger sessions was not widely known as something that could be done21:19
dolphmmikal: we've started to turn that around in keystone already. going into the atlanta summit, we already had a list of "bucket" topics for things we knew we wanted to cover, and then all accepted topics ended up in one of those pre-defined buckets21:19
dhellmannstevebaker: unless your team ends up having to participate in other project sessions :-)21:20
mikalgordc: we have a -drivers group who would probably do that... the people who approve specs21:20
reedand interaction with other 'influencers'21:20
mikal#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-nova-summit-topics is my attempt to start brainstorming21:20
mikalAlthough its not announced / advertised yet21:20
ttxmikal: so you would simply not use the "session proposal site" ?21:20
mikalGiven I only started late last night21:20
ttxand just make up a scehdule ?21:20
mikalttx: I think we'd have to use the site to get the schedule app working21:20
mikalttx: but we might pre-seed it with things we want to see21:20
gordcmikal: cool cool. yeah that matches up with how we plan our meetup21:21
ttxmikal: right, but we would not use it as a way to build the agenda21:21
dhellmannI might use a hybrid approach, and allow some proposals from outside of the oslo drivers but reserve a number of slots for our ringer sessions21:21
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mikaldhellmann: Yeah, I imagine we'll do the same21:21
rockygbucket topics are key.  How about allot time for bucket, then separate time for serendipidity topics?21:21
mikalA bucket list of core topics, and then take the rest from proposals21:21
rockygmikal: ++21:22
dolphmmikal: ++21:22
mikalNova also gets fewer sessions each summit21:22
mikalSo we need to learn to be more efficient with our time21:22
rockygAlso, a final wrap up session that solidifies focus for the coming release?21:22
ttxmikal: would you be using 40-min slots for your topic list ? Or more a generic 2-hour prebooked area in the schedule ?21:22
dolphmwith 8 or 9 slots, keystone only ended up with 1 non-bucketish slot21:22
mikalttx: I am unsure. I don't have an opinion yet.21:23
ttxcalled something intimidating like "core contributors gathering"21:23
mikalttx: it would also be good to not have full day nova things this time around21:23
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ttxFWIW Neutron had generic "culture" slots last time21:23
jgriffithmy head exploded :)21:23
mikalI'd prefer half days to let people hallway track contentious things21:23
notmynamenova shouldn't really complain about the number of slots they get at the summit ;-)21:23
dolphmmikal: +++21:23
ttxnotmyname: sssh, if they drop some that frees more for the others!21:23
jgriffithone of the things I've noticed seems to "help" with the meetups is no time assignments21:24
mikalnotmyname: not complaining, noting we need to learn to fit into a smaller thing21:24
jgriffithmaybe a blend of that and time limits?21:24
mikaljgriffith: yeah, some things need to be time boxed or they never end21:24
jgriffithjogo: problem is as you said cross-project stuff21:24
jgriffithimpossible to scheduler time21:24
jgriffithmikal: that's for srue21:24
ttxjgriffith: sure. We can have a mix of a half-day to cover several topics, and 40-min sessions to cover specific predetermiend stuff21:24
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rockyghow about BoFs for topics between end of scheduled day and parties?21:24
jgriffithbut the other thing we're proposing is no topics without at least POC code21:24
jogojgriffith: yeah that is the tricky part. but I don't know a better time to do that21:25
clarkbrockyg: problem with that is by then everyone is dead21:25
jgriffithttx: I like that idea21:25
mikaljgriffith: I've mooted requiring a spec21:25
mikaljgriffith: the bucket list thing might mean we water that down a bit21:25
ttxrockyg: hat may not be possible dut to arrengements with conference space21:25
clarkbrockyg: I think we would like to have something like that but in reality people want to get rid of bags and detox for the day21:25
jogoa bunch of issues that we had to sort out at the summit are now solved in specs21:25
ttxmikal: there is some risk in keeping the "session proposal" thing but having even less slots to fit them in21:25
jgriffithjogo: +121:25
rockygclarkb:  except the ones who really want to get something ironed out, but then they might be tame enough to come to agreement ;-)21:26
jgriffithmikal: so you're saying you've proposed requiring specs?21:26
jgriffithmikal: approved or submitted?21:26
mikaljgriffith: yes21:26
annegentlefeedback I got from Atlanta was that people assumed everyone knew everyone already21:26
jgriffithmikal: seems that would go a long way21:26
jogomikal: they should be submitted and contentious21:26
mikalannegentle: I heard that from some internal people21:26
dolphminformal poll: what percentage of sessions end up being recurring themes summit to summit?21:26
mikalI kind of objected21:26
annegentleyah mikal21:26
mikalI don't want to spend 5 minutes at the beginging of each timeslot doing intros21:26
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dolphmfor keystone, it's about 70-80% ongoing broad topics21:27
jgriffith-1 on intros21:27
annegentleI think the room layout and joined chairs were the problem there, not intros each session21:27
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jgriffithtime is too valuable :(21:27
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jgriffithmaybe a pre-session meet and great :)21:27
ttxOK how about this strawman: let's drop the "open suggestions for design summit sessions" system and let the PTL handle the schedule in ML disucssions21:27
dhellmannannegentle: yeah, we need to be more assertive about just moving the chairs ourselves on the first day21:27
dolphmjgriffith: == show up early21:27
jgriffithdolphm: exactly21:27
mikalttx: that's an interesting idea21:27
annegentleI hate talking about the same issues summit after summit though. Hm.21:28
markmcclainttx: I like that idea21:28
ttxside benefit being, less confusion about the summit CFP21:28
mikalttx: it does push a lot of that into email though21:28
ttxI know Heat did it like that21:28
mikalttx: which is harder to keep on top of21:28
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dolphmttx: that would certainly upset companies that use design summit session proposals to see who gets to go to the summit or not. so ++ because that's dumb.21:28
jgriffithttx: hmm... not a bad idea, although I end up cherry picking anyway regardless of what's proposed :)21:28
jgriffithor worse rewriting them :)21:28
notmynamepersonally, I don't like that because basically we'll still end up with submissions that need to be prioritized and scheduled, but now without a tool.21:28
ttxmikal: side benefit, you get rid of weird session proposals that don't come from core team21:28
dhellmannttx: so we would ask people to propose on the ML, or they would have to propose to us directly?21:28
annegentlettx: that "no proposals" might just make us look like cliques21:28
ttxdhellmann: each PTL would come up with stuff, can be a meeting, a ML...21:28
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notmynamealso, submitting to the ML may (or may not) have a social barrier to those timid about their idea21:28
jgriffithnotmyname: my belief is if you don't get to it, you handle it in a meetup or other method21:29
dhellmannnotmyname: I can show you how I use note cards for that... :-)21:29
dolphmdhellmann: published a strawman schedule on list and ask for feedback?21:29
jgriffithsome topics require more time21:29
ttxAlso all bear in mind that it's the Kilo PTLs that will do that21:29
dolphmdhellmann: i would not recommend starting from scratch; or if you do start from scratch, do so in an IRC meeting with a smaller audience21:29
notmynameannegentle: ++21:29
ttxpoor souls21:29
dhellmannnotmyname: the social barrier is a good point, though -- we might not have had any discussion of i18n if that had been the rule21:29
dhellmanndolphm: makes sense21:29
annegentleI do sense we need to recruit to shape what we want, I do21:30
rockygcome up with the core topics and schedules and let folks propose topics that fit in with the flavor"?21:30
jgriffithnotmyname: annegentle OpenStack is no place for the shy21:30
ttxannegentle: I just feel like having session suggestions but even less slots to fit them in is setting wrong expectations21:30
mikalI'm just going to ask people to brainstorm on an etherpad I think21:30
jgriffithjust sayin21:30
mikalAnd then sit down with drivers and come up with a plan from that21:30
dhellmannjgriffith: but we don't have to make it any harder21:30
jgriffithmikal: +121:30
annegentlejgriffith: well, think of it as an extroverted woman who still has to face a sea of extroverted men :)21:30
sdaguewell QA team evolves an etherpad for about a month leading up to the design summit to ensure that certain topics get covered, so is already doing something like this21:30
jgriffithdhellmann: I agree21:30
mikalIt worked for the mid-cycle, therefore...21:30
dhellmannmikal: etherpad seems like a good idea21:31
jgriffithdhellmann: anonymous etherpad might work21:31
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annegentlettx: yes the continual squeezing is not solvable right now21:31
jgriffithas mikal just suggested21:31
dhellmannjgriffith: if 2 people suggest it, that means we do it, right? :-)21:31
jgriffithdhellmann: :)21:31
annegentleI discuss what we want at weekly doc team meetings also21:31
mtreinishsdague: kind of, mostly it's people put things in the tool21:31
mtreinishand then we bug them to add it to the etherpad21:31
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ttx#info Strawman suggestion: do not use "design summit session suggestion" website this time around21:32
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sdaguemtreinish: the etherpad usually has content before the tool :)21:32
notmynamethere's always been a lot of confusion of what is submitted where (conference vs summit sessions). we've been pretty good about having a defined process so far about how and when to do summit suggestions21:32
rockygGet new ideas from community through specs that get discussed on etherpads21:32
ttxWhat about the 40-min slots ? Their main goal is to align the schedule with the conference, so that you don't end up missing things because they are misaligned21:32
mtreinishsdague: heh, well I guess it depends on the people submitting...21:32
mtreinishit's normally a mix21:32
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gordcwhat we did in ceilometer was take all the proposals and have all the core members rank the ones they'd want... i think ultimately it's on the core team to figure out what gets selected.. (whether it's their idea or not)21:33
notmynamettx: FWIW, we cut some of those in half in atlanta jsut to fit in a few more. we "manually" managed the timing21:33
dhellmanngordc: yeah, I like that, too21:33
dolphmhaving everything predefined might eliminate the confusion about why powerpoint presentations aren't welcome in the design summit21:33
dhellmannnotmyname: I've done that for oslo, too21:33
markmcclainso proposals and selection is only part of it… there is a difference in the people in attendance at the events21:33
david-lyleHorizon split almost all sessions21:33
markmcclainmid-cycles folks tend to be more in tune with core project direction21:33
rockyghow about a design board session for new ideas?  One slot for all to talk about their stuff, then leave the boards for everyone to review?21:34
notmynameso, I'd support having official 20-minute blocks that are scheduled, realizing that some sessions will take 2 of them21:34
gordcdavid-lyle: i wasn't a fan of split sessions since it ended up being two rushed topics... did it work well in horizon?21:34
ttxI think not having a website-driven CFP will definitely remove some powerpoint21:34
dolphmgordc: we did that as well for the few topics that were close calls21:34
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notmynamegordc: yes, it does make it _really_ rushed21:34
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david-lylegordc, for the most part not overly rushed21:34
markmcclainttx: neutron had a no powerpoint rule :)21:34
david-lylenot always an equal split either21:34
sdaguettx: I think the fixed time block is actually the key issue, because as was brought up in various threads, some topics need airing out. And turns out that only in hour 2 get to something useful. And then other topics that seem to be important turn into "oh, yeh, so we kind of figured that out already, all agreed" and are done in 5 minutes21:35
david-lyleI think most of the work needs to be done pre-summit anyway21:35
annegentleI think the fixed time block helps with intro/icebreaking/I belong/ etc21:35
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rockygif you do design board and do it early, you can use stikies to vote like the agile process uses.  Then the most votes at the end also get a session.21:35
sdaguenot that I have any idea how you'd do a 6 track DS without fixed blocks21:35
ttxsdague: so, another strawman, we could just have lists of topics we would cover between two breaks21:35
gordcdavid-lyle: cool cool. yeah. presummit work is definitely something important21:35
stevebakerwe generally have to duplicate the CFP listings into an etherpad to collaborate on, but other parts of the CFP site workflow are nice21:35
jgriffithdavid-lyle: +121:35
jgriffithpreperation is key21:35
ttxthat gives a bit of flexibility21:35
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dhellmannttx: how long would those blocks be?21:35
annegentleI just said the opposite of what I meant. get rid of super fixed time blocks to help with flows21:35
jogottx: the issue with that is if folks want to jump between tracks21:35
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ttxand "some" alignement with conference21:35
jogottx: but that may be a good tradeoff21:35
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sdaguettx: possibly, I know in portland we reordered the list a lot to keep flow going.21:36
dhellmannjogo: right, we would be constantly chasing devs to get them to come to the oslo room to talk about some cross-project concern21:36
annegentlettx: we don't have room for the "pods" do we?21:36
ttxdhellmann: time between start of day and first break, then between break and lunch, then...21:36
jeblairjogo: infra only has a handful of slots, but most of us spend _absolutely all of our time_ attending other tracks because of what we do21:36
dhellmannttx: right, but how many hours is that?21:36
ttxannegentle: probably not that much21:36
dhellmannttx: rough guess? 3?21:36
jeblairso if track-jumping is harder, there may be an impact to our ability to do that.  i'm not sure i'm going to complain :)21:36
annegentle2.5 maybe?21:36
notmynamettx: would that be like scheduling at some conferences (eg pycon comes to mind) where there is a block bounded by a break, and there are a few sessions scheduled in it, but it isn't designed for you to leave half-way through21:37
ttxdhellmann: http://junodesignsummit.sched.org/ shows...21:37
annegentleif we have the cross-project slots again that'll help?21:37
ttx2/3 sessions21:37
jgriffithjeblair: you won't get rid of me in your tracks that easily21:37
dhellmannttx: yeah, so about 2.5 hrs, not too bad21:37
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ttxor 1h3021:37
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dhellmannnotmyname: you are actually meant to be able to get up and leave at any point in those blocks, though21:38
ttxnotmyname: the key benefit is that is one topic needs an extra 10min, that's fine21:38
notmynamedhellmann: well, yeah. you can. but I mean that there isn't as long of a transistion between each21:38
ttxand if a topic needs 10min left that's fine too21:38
dhellmannnotmyname: true21:38
notmynamettx: right. so schedule longer blocks and keep going until you're done with the topics in that block21:39
dhellmannagain, maybe some combination? if we have topics we expect to need input from others on, those would have to start a block of time21:39
ttxIn all cases we'll have the cross-project stuff, and that would probably be organized as 40-min sessions21:39
dhellmannand then anything that is team-specific could come after21:39
ttxand we'll probably use the design summit suggestion site to get suggestions21:39
dhellmannthat way other teams would know "oslo is talking about the db library right after lunch" or whatever21:39
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dolphmhow are we going to plan cross-project sessions? mikal's etherpad approach in this meeting?21:40
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ttxdolphm: tbd21:40
sdaguedolphm: honestly, that's basically how we did it last time21:40
ttxlast time it was a TC thing, right?21:40
sdaguettx: yeh21:40
ttxor a all-PTL maybe21:40
sdagueabout 6 tc member volunteered21:40
notmynamettx: if you want off-the-wall ideas, what about getting rid of per-program tracks all together and just doing cross-project. let midcycle meetups and hallway track handle per-program stuff21:40
notmynamenot that there aren't (big) disadvantages to that21:41
dolphmsdague: iirc, it was a smaller group that did most of the planning. i think that worked out pretty well, but i ended up getting to the summit and kicking myself for not suggesting a couple topics21:41
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ttxnotmyname: that would make midcycle meetups extra design summits, basically.... mandatory presnce21:41
gordcdolphm: that's on you.lol21:41
ttxthat may be the only solution, but i want to explore solutions to avoid that21:41
notmynamettx: yes. but I've already had people asking me why there are 4 swift dev events a year now :-)21:41
jgriffithnotmyname: do we have enough cross-project to warrant that?21:42
dhellmannttx: should we still keep scheduled times for the cross-project discussions?21:42
dolphmgordc: i don't disagree, i just feel like i missed out on visibility into the process somehow21:42
rockyghow about an unconference in parallel with the standard sessions?21:42
jeblairnotmyname: i think the idea is to try to make the summit useful enough to not need mid-cicles21:42
jeblaircycles even21:42
ttxdhellmann: probably. We'll have several in parallel, some hoping from session to session is a must21:42
notmynamejeblair: two week summits? :-)21:42
gordcdolphm: agreed. maybe all PTL should be there to have a voice.21:42
jeblairat least, not have them be so critically important21:42
dhellmanndolphm: now that we've done it once, I think having a larger group with input would work OK, so maybe we should expand it this year.21:42
jeblairnotmyname: only in paris :)21:42
dhellmannttx: right, that's what I was thinking21:42
jeblairnotmyname: not in atlanta :)21:42
notmynamejeblair: forget that! I'm going to spain after paris :-)21:42
jgriffithjeblair: +121:43
dhellmannjeblair: ugh, no, not atlanta, but paris would be ok :-)21:43
jgriffithso in all seriousness for a second....21:43
ttxdesign summit 2nd week at my house21:43
mikalI don't think mid-cycles exist because of problems with the summit21:43
dhellmannttx: easy sell21:43
jgriffithWhat I'd like to propose for Cinder is requirement of POC code21:43
mikalThey exist because six months is a long time21:43
jgriffithmaybe do somethign around time slots21:43
mtreinishttx: +121:43
mikalAnd projects are more complicated / contentious than they used to be21:43
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jgriffithbut also ideally have an open *day* for informal cinder participants to hammer some things out21:44
gordcmikal: agreed. i feel like summit is first stage of vetting, and then meetups end up being second.21:44
dhellmannjgriffith: I'm definitely going to require specs this time, but I'm not sure about code21:44
jgriffithsort of like unconf, but just "hey, meet over here if you want"21:44
jeblairmikal: true, but how much of what happens at mid-cycle could-have/should-have been able to be handled at a summit under ideal conditions?21:44
notmynamejeblair: like the ATL pods?21:44
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jgriffithdhellmann: yeah, I'm torn on that21:44
ttxmikal: I would disagree with that. More complex open source projects do very well with 6 months21:44
notmynamejeblair: the pods were great for swift in atl21:44
rockygjgriffith: ++21:44
dhellmannjgriffith: I see + and -21:44
jgriffithkinda depends on what ideas people propose :)21:44
ttxmikal: example: kernel summits21:44
mikalttx: are they more directive though? The kernel handles this by Linux being a dictator for example21:44
mikalttx: we have a more collaborative style than the kernel, and I for one like that21:45
dhellmannnotmyname: ceilometer used them a lot, too, but the oslo team didn't because of being tied up in other teams as well21:45
jeblairmikal: in some ways, but it's not like linus decides the features; people still come in with all kind of proposals; it's just one guy gets a global veto21:45
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mikaljeblair: well, one guy and his team of hench people21:45
ttxmikal: I think we fail to reach alignment on goals at the summit, and as we get closer to the end of the cycle, thaat lack of alignment bites us, and it overtakes the whole midcycle meetups which used to just be workshops/hackathons21:46
annegentlehonestly when docs has had something similar to "midcyle meetup" it was the small group and lack of distractions that made it useful21:46
mikalWe don't have any concept for subsystem maintainers21:46
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dhellmannannegentle: +121:46
annegentlebut I do think mikal's point is right21:46
jeblairttx: i think that's a good way of putting it21:46
annegentlecomplexity and contentiousness (is that a word?)21:46
dolphmannegentle: ++21:46
jeblairttx: there's room to be more effective at the summits21:46
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ttxIn less conflictual projects, they use midcycle gatherings to get things done, rather than to reach the alignemnt they miss21:46
mikalannegentle: its a word in Australia21:46
annegentlemikal: nice. I'll move there now.21:47
mikalI don't think conflictual is a word though21:47
ttxand I think that's the most productive setup21:47
ttxmikal: it's a word in france.21:47
notmynamettx: I can relate to that for swift21:47
mikalSo... I think we've stopped making forward progress here21:47
mikalI agree that we should try to make summits more effective21:47
mikalWe have some ideas about that21:47
ttxmikal: I don't really seek progress, I seek ideas :)21:47
mikalLet's see how it goes and then work out what to do with mid-cycles later21:48
annegentlemikal: ++21:48
ttxFWIW the Kilo design summit will be organized by the Kilo PTLs, so we can't really all make decisions for them21:48
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jeblairttx: that argument is recursive21:48
ttxI just want to have options proposed and explored beforehand21:48
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notmynamettx: have you considers a website that lets us submit ideas so you can schedule when we talk about them?21:48
dolphmbut we can tell them what *not* to do :)21:48
ttxnotmyname: hmm.21:49
jeblairttx: also, kilo ptls should be participating in this meeting :)21:49
ttxSide benefit of having time areas with lists of topics to cover, that shall reduce accidental attendance21:50
annegentlewoops! I attended!21:50
rockygput the ideas on an etherpad, post location to the ml and let people brainstorm.  then collect up the best ideas and discuss.21:50
ttxLike "this title looks good, let's show up"21:50
jeblairttx: right, having 40 mins to kill between sessions cuts both ways21:50
stevebakerwe might need runners to go out and fetch key people to attend micro-topics ;)21:51
notmynameso what is the actual problem to solve? efficient use of time? making midcycle meetups superfluous?21:51
ttxstevebaker: that's the main drawback. The current scheduling makes sure to reduce overlap between horizontal and vertical programs21:51
gordchow about adding tags/keywords to sessions and they can be organized that way? although i guess that puts pressure on ptl to come up with proper tags21:52
notmynamejust making sure people know when and where to be?21:52
ttxby keeping vertical programs in large blocks, and spreading vertical programs all around21:52
ttxIf we switch to a minimum of 1h30 time slots, we'll create "Heat can't attend QA" symptoms again21:52
gordcnotmyname: all of the above21:52
rockygttx: but that really kill cross project collaboration21:52
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jeblairso i think in that case we have to have a really strong focus on cross-project sessions21:53
ttxnotmyname: the problem I want to solve is reaching more clarity and alignment at Design Summits21:53
annegentlerockyg: I find it really really hard no matter what due to size/scope. We need to invent the time-turner21:53
dhellmannjeblair: +121:53
annegentlerockyg: it being cross-project21:54
jeblairi think they were really good last time, but honestly, still under-attended; we definitely could have used some more ptls there21:54
annegentlettx: yep that21:54
rockygannegentle:  Im willing to beta test the time-turner!21:54
david-lyleI think cross-project work should happen in cross-project sessions, I envision the summits being more about defining the work for the release as a collective upfront and spending time in individual project teams discussing how to best meet those goals21:54
ttxMore often than not I feel like we are talking about stuff at design summit but fail to come up with a clear consensus, actionable items, and team alignment on release goals21:55
annegentledavid-lyle: I like this utopia of which you speak21:55
jogodavid-lyle: oh I like that idea21:55
ttxsometims I feel we are trying to cover too much and end up covering nothing21:56
dolphmdavid-lyle: nit: "defining the work" == "herding cats" ... i'd prefer "agreeing on design/solutions" so that when the work does happen (this release or next) we've got something to point to saying "we already discussed how this should look"21:56
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annegentlemaybe summits already are cross project and hence the difficulty due to scope/complexity21:56
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ttxand part of it is the 40-min slot thing, and some of it is the mass of suggestions we receive with the open CFP21:57
rockygso, how do we merge david-lyles idea and ttxs concerns to reach solid plans?21:57
ttxI don't want us to sift through hundreds of proposals while we all know what we should talk about21:57
ttxdata point, the summit conference CFP received something like 1,200 proposals21:57
ttxCFP spamming is a popular sport21:58
annegentlettx: right21:58
dolphmand how many sessions did we have, total?21:58
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ttxi can answer that question21:58
notmynamethe summit is (1) the only place where all the teams gather and (2) the visible place for attracting new people.21:58
notmynameI don't think it fair to say "we all know what we should talk about"21:58
ttx34 slots * 6 rooms (including incubated, "other projects" and cross-project sessions)21:59
mikalnotmyname: I agree21:59
notmynamenot using the summit time for cross-project talk seems a waste, IMO21:59
dhellmannnotmyname: yeah, I know that's not the case for oslo.21:59
annegentlenotmyname: agreed21:59
mikalSummit is more cross project than mid-cycles21:59
notmynameand making it easy for new people to participate seems important21:59
mikalAnd the cross project stuff is important too21:59
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mikalEven if it distracts from just delivering the latest release of project X21:59
notmynamemikal: in fact, our midcycle meetups have the rule "no intro to swift" topics21:59
mikalnotmyname: the nova ones don't even do background info...22:00
dolphmwow, so we end up rejecting or merging over 80% of the session proposals?!22:00
mikalnotmyname: its straight into "what's wrong with migraion 128 and how do we fix it"22:00
notmynamemikal: right.22:00
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ttxdolphm: that 1,200 figure is for the summit conference-sideCFP22:00
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dolphmttx: oh, not design summit proposals?22:00
ttxwe had about twice as much proposals than we had slots. But I expect the numebr of proposals tto go up.22:01
ttxsince Paris is popular22:01
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ttxand getting your stuff accepted can be your ticket to go22:01
ttxand we are off tim22:01
notmynamettx: yup22:01
notmynamettx: where do we continue?22:01
notmynamethe conversation?22:01
ttxso we should expect a surge in proposals if we keep the web-driven CFP22:01
ttxnotmyname: I'll raise a new thread22:01
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ttxso that we can continue exploring options22:01
ttxThanks everyone, that was a good talk22:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Aug 19 22:02:18 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-19-21.01.html22:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-19-21.01.txt22:02
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-08-19-21.01.log.html22:02
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