Tuesday, 2015-03-17

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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 17 08:00:10 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:00
anteayaraise your hand if you are here for the third-party meeting08:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"08:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 17 08:58:17 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-03-17-08.00.html08:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-03-17-08.00.txt08:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-03-17-08.00.log.html08:58
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anteaya#startmeeting nova-net-to-neutron-migration09:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 17 09:00:03 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.09:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.09:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)"09:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova_net_to_neutron_migration'09:00
anteayahow are you today?09:00
obondarevgreat, thank you09:00
anteayahow are you this evening?09:00
anteayagus: ping09:00
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mikalI am tired to be honest, its been a hard couple of days09:00
mikalBut such is life09:00
anteayathanks for being honest09:01
anteayaand yes I hear that09:01
anteayaso here is our agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova-nettoNeutronMigration09:01
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anteayaso to speed things along, lets just address what, if anything, is new09:01
anteayaobondarev: anything new?09:01
obondarevno updates from my side this week..09:01
anteayaokay none from mine09:01
obondarevseems everybody is busy with end of cycle stuff09:01
mikalYeah, its hard to get non-release stuff done at the moment09:02
anteayaobondarev: yes, it is a hard time of the cycle for work like this09:02
obondarevand I'm afraid we can't move forward without enough feedback09:02
anteayaobondarev: that is true09:02
obondarevanteaya: thank you for bringing attention to nova-net proxy patch during nova team meeting09:02
anteayaalso I am concerned about sdague's comment in his email coming form the ops meetup09:02
anteayaobondarev: thanks, I tried09:02
obondarevanteaya: yep, mee too09:03
anteayabut understandably noone has time09:03
anteayaI talked to mestery today and he talked to sean last week, hopefully they will post something to the mailin glist this week09:03
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anteayabut since there is nothing yet I figured we should just continue09:04
obondarevgenerally ops are not sure about the parity, right?09:04
anteayaas party of the problem is stopping and starting09:04
mikalNo, I think its that some ops have no desire to move, ever09:04
anteayanot exactly sure09:04
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anteayayeah, more that09:04
anteayaso since we wont' decide that tonight09:04
mikalWe either need to convince them to move, or somehow meet their desire to not move09:04
anteayaand mikal needsd his sleep and so do I09:04
mikalWhich is ... unexpected09:04
mikalYeah, I think a nova summit session is a good idea here09:05
anteayaanything we can accomplish in this meeting, do you think09:05
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mikalI don't think we'll solve this in an IRC meeting with three people09:05
anteayamikal: as long as you lead it, I'm for that09:05
anteayamikal: agreed09:05
mikalI would fall on that grenade09:05
anteayaobondarev: any thoughts before we call it a wrap09:05
anteayamikal: its all yours09:05
obondarevanteaya: nope09:05
anteayathanks for showing up09:05
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anteayaenjoy the rest of the day/evening09:06
anteayatalk to you anon09:06
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"09:06
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 17 09:06:09 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)09:06
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-03-17-09.00.html09:06
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-03-17-09.00.txt09:06
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-03-17-09.00.log.html09:06
mikalanteaya: you should go back to bed09:06
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anteayamikal: on my way09:06
mikalanteaya: sleep well09:06
anteayathanks you too09:06
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n0ano#startmeeting gantt15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 17 15:00:37 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'gantt'15:00
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n0anoanyone here to talk about the scheduler (except lxsli who I know is here :-)15:00
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lxslio/\o !15:02
n0anolxsli, I don't want to know what that is :-)15:02
n0anoanyway, let's get started...15:02
lxslihighfive :)15:02
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n0anoI think we can keep it short today, just want to know if there are any patch isses that need to be dealt with so...15:03
n0ano#topic patch status15:03
*** openstack changes topic to "patch status (Meeting topic: gantt)"15:03
lxslistill need to clone jay15:03
n0anoAny outstanding issues/reviews/roadblocks we can help with?15:03
edleafethe first patch in my series merged friday15:03
n0anoedleafe, I saw that, congrats!15:03
edleafegot a lot of feedback from dansmith and jaypipes on patch #215:03
edleafechanges have been pushed, and am waiting for follow-up reviews15:04
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edleafe#2 was the biggest change in terms of impact to the overall system15:04
n0anocool, so appropriate progress, that's all we can as for15:04
edleafeso once that gets through, the rest shouldn't be as contentious15:04
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n0anoI have to admit, I'm a little conerned about the lack of strikeouts in the tracking page but last minutes pushes are normal15:04
edleafebut to get them all in 2 days? Not very confident15:05
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PaulMurrayedleafe, thanks for reviewing my patches, what happened to the rest of you ???15:05
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n0anoPaulMurray, point taken, I want to do reviews today, hope to get to it15:06
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PaulMurrayn0ano, thanks15:06
PaulMurrayedleafe, what is the patch you have waiting?15:06
n0anoI've had machine issues (I don't want to talk about it :-(15:07
edleafePaulMurray: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/160511/15:07
PaulMurrayn0ano, we can sell you another one :)15:07
* bauzas waves late (again...)15:07
n0anoPaulMurray, I work for Intel, the cobbler's kids go barefoot15:07
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edleafePaulMurray: but it's really a jaypipes bottleneck issue right now15:07
PaulMurrayn0ano, that's why we're offering15:08
n0anobauzas, welcome, just looking for any patch issues15:08
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n0anoPaulMurray, tnx, I'm all better now15:08
bauzasedleafe: I'm thinking that you should ask for an exception15:08
* lxsli submits PaulMurray for additional ethics training15:08
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bauzasedleafe: I think we need to merge each patch one by one15:09
edleafebauzas: that may be necessary; depends on how close the series is to getting through15:09
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bauzasedleafe: I'll ask for the FFE process by next Nova meeting15:09
n0anoshould we ask for the exception now and avoid the rush15:09
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edleafen0ano: feels premature15:09
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bauzasn0ano: FFEs are only for priorities, so it should not be a rush15:09
bauzasedleafe: that said, I think that bumping RPC version would be -1 for a FFE15:10
bauzasedleafe: because that's something huge15:10
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edleafebauzas: that's one reason I put that patch first initially15:11
bauzasedleafe: yeah but I said, I don't want to have half methods15:11
edleafebauzas: it was a single patch15:11
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edleafesplitting it into two means one has to go first :)15:12
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bauzasedleafe: so let's cross fingers and see what can be merged before Thursday but that sounds really risky15:12
PaulMurraybauzas, could you take a look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/148904/ - hans asked a question about service + compute_node15:12
bauzasPaulMurray: sure it's in my pipe15:12
PaulMurraybauzas, would like to get it sorted today15:13
bauzasPaulMurray: okay, let's do this just after the meeting15:13
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PaulMurraybauzas, k15:13
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n0anoOK, anything else specific or should we all go back and review code?15:14
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n0anook, then the action is...15:15
n0ano#action review the patches on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-nova-priorities-tracking15:15
bauzasseriously, reviewing ? :)15:16
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n0anoand we'll talk again next week15:16
alex_xucode, review, adverties to core what can be review~15:16
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n0anotnx everyone, we know what to do15:16
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:16
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 17 15:16:58 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:17
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-03-17-15.00.html15:17
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-03-17-15.00.txt15:17
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primeministerp#startmeeting hyper-v16:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 17 16:01:58 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is primeministerp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v'16:02
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primeministerpalexpilotti: ping16:02
primeministerphey there16:02
primeministerpbeen a while16:02
primeministerp#topic general updates16:02
*** openstack changes topic to "general updates (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:02
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primeministerpalexpilotti: where do we stand on the upstream pipeline?16:02
alexpilottiso we have quite some stuff16:03
primeministerpalexpilotti: care to run through?16:03
alexpilottiof course16:03
alexpilottiwas collecting the BPs16:04
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alexpilottithe bad news is that Nova cut almost all low priority BP from kilo16:04
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alexpilottiand as usual a lot of driver stuff got in the list, including hyper-v16:04
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alexpilottithe good news, is that the only non-driver BP that we had got approved for K3 and merged16:05
alexpilottigetting the link16:05
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alexpilotti#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/keypair-x509-certificates16:06
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alexpilottiwe are still waiting for a Nova client patch to merge, but all the big parts merged16:06
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alexpilottiall other BPs that got delayed are driver specific, so it’s not that critical to have them outside of Nova16:07
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alexpilottiand anyway they’ll get resumed for Liberty as usual16:08
alexpilottihere’s the rundown16:08
alexpilotti#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/hyper-v-rescue16:08
primeministerpalexpilotti: thx16:08
alexpilotti#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/hyperv-serial-ports16:09
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alexpilotti#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/hyper-v-remotefx16:09
alexpilotti#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/hyper-v-ovs-vif16:10
alexpilotti#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/hyper-v-vnic-hot-plug16:10
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alexpilottithis is Nova only. All fully implemented BPs (since a while)16:10
alexpilottiNeutron we have 1 BP still approved, but considering that we are 2 days off code freeze, it’ll be most probably postponed:16:11
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alexpilotti#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/hyper-v-ovs-agent16:11
alexpilotti#link  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/+spec/image-caching-support16:12
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alexpilottiNeutron, we also have the most important patch pending, due to lack of votes from the CI, hopefully today the CI will resume:16:13
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primeministerpalexpilotti: yes I hope we'll be up and voting today as well16:13
alexpilotti#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/153259/16:14
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alexpilottithe last one is the neutron agent decomposition16:14
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alexpilottihopefully similar plans are going to happen for Cinder and Nova16:15
alexpilottiwe’ll add more on this during the next meetings16:15
alexpilottiwe have also a big batch of new blueprints16:15
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alexpilottifor Nova, Cinder, Manila and Trove16:16
alexpilottiManila in particualr we have SMB3 support16:16
alexpilottiTrove we have SQL Server support16:16
alexpilottiCinder we have QoS for storage16:16
alexpilottiand Nova / neutron we have QoS for networking16:16
primeministerpguess our timing on getting things running again is good16:16
alexpilottiall this new stuff is meant for the Liberty timeframe16:17
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alexpilottion the bugs side, the driver is very stable16:17
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alexpilottiso we have very few activities there16:17
primeministerpthat's good16:17
alexpilottiok, that was the quick rundown :-)16:18
primeministerp#topic CI status16:18
*** openstack changes topic to "CI status (Meeting topic: hyper-v)"16:18
primeministerpso we've been down for some time16:18
primeministerpwe've basically replaced the entire physical network16:18
primeministerpand should as a result experience much better stability out of the network going foward16:18
primeministerpadditionally this means we'll be able to over the course of the coming weeks increase capicity16:19
primeministerpafter we get everything stablized of course16:19
primeministerphopefully we'll be back to our running/responding state today16:20
primeministerpsome details from a network upgrade perspective16:20
primeministerpwe've increased the ammount of network devices in the cambridge ci 5x16:20
primeministerpwe are also now capible of isolating all the ci dataplane traffic16:21
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primeministerpthe backplanes for the operational network and dataplane networks now flow over 10g between both sites16:21
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primeministerpwe've also increased port density to each rack 3x16:22
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primeministerpthat's about what i have for now16:23
primeministerpalexpilotti: anything else to add16:23
alexpilottiprimeministerp: I’m good for this round!16:23
primeministerpalexpilotti: if not i'm ending the meeting16:23
alexpilotticool tx!16:23
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:23
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 17 16:23:45 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:23
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boris-42hi hi17:08
openstackboris-42: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee'17:08
boris-42#startmeeting Rally17:08
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 17 17:08:10 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:08
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:08
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'rally'17:08
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meteorfoxboris-42: hi17:08
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andreykurilinboris-42: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe2s32YqGpU17:09
boris-42andreykurilin: ^ LOL17:10
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boris-42dprince: tosky hi there17:11
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tosky(hi, lurking around)17:11
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boris-42So like usually short updates17:12
boris-42#topic Updates17:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Updates (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:12
boris-42Okay guys we made new release 0.0.217:12
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boris-42who doesn't know what the hell take a look at http://boris-42.me/rally-v0-0-2-whats-new/17:13
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boris-42Our goal is to start doing releases each 2 weeks17:13
boris-42this will allow to ship to users new features/plugins rapidly17:13
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boris-42which I think is crucial17:14
boris-42As well the another thing regarding to releases is to start using http://semver.org/17:15
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boris-42for now 0.y.x -> 0.y.x+1 means fully backward compable17:15
boris-420.y.x -> 0.y+1.0 means something changed (like depracated plugins / API were removed)17:16
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boris-42e0ne: hi there17:16
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boris-42when we cut 1.0.0 release we will use semver fully17:17
meteorfoxboris-42: sounds reasonable17:17
e0neboris-42: +117:18
yfried_boris-42: semver is a guideline, not an automatic tool, right?17:18
boris-42yfried_: yep17:18
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yfried_boris-42: ok. +117:18
boris-42yfried_: so I hope I won't make any mistakes as release manager=)17:18
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boris-42So as well we have some changes in read the docs17:19
boris-42we have new menu https://rally.readthedocs.org/en/latest/17:19
boris-42Release Notes17:19
yfried_boris-42: so long as it's you and not me ... :)17:19
boris-42so it will be some kind of hisotry17:19
boris-42So I would like to discuss a bit commit message formats17:20
boris-42#topic Commit message format17:20
*** openstack changes topic to "Commit message format (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:20
boris-42During the process of making release notes I understand that it's terrible hard task17:21
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boris-421) Title of commit messages sometimes are absolutelly unclear17:21
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boris-422) Commit message has only titile17:21
boris-42and so on17:21
boris-42I believe that we need to do cleanup this stuff17:22
yfried_boris-42: ^ that's reviewer/core resp to make sure commit is good17:22
meteorfoxboris-42: I know I'm guilty of that :P17:22
toskyshouldn't the format of commit message addressed during reviews (I mean, shouldn't the review receive -1 if the message is unclear)?17:22
boris-42yfried_: tosky I dislike a bit this idea of manual work17:22
boris-42people gets angry if it is not CI17:23
toskyboris-42: but that's about the semantic, a human is still needed17:23
boris-42so I would like to have checks for commit message17:23
toskyunless you have skynet in your computer17:23
boris-42tosky: I have=)17:23
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* tosky checks for the emergency exits17:23
* boris-42 tosky: it won't help17:24
boris-42So let's just start from small steps17:24
boris-42First of all is to add tags to commit message17:24
boris-42[nova] Add servers benchmark context17:24
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yfried_boris-42: -117:25
boris-42yfried_: why so?17:25
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yfried_boris-42: I suggested this exact thing for tempest early on17:25
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boris-42yfried_: and?17:25
boris-42yfried_: why -1 then?)17:25
yfried_boris-42: commit subject should be less than 50 char17:25
boris-42yfried_: I would prefer to have it 72 but with tag17:26
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yfried_boris-42: and adding tags would get in the way17:26
yfried_boris-42: still17:26
boris-42yfried_: it will be better then tag17:26
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boris-42yfried_: one tag is not big deal17:26
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boris-42yfried_: [nova] == 6 chars, [ceilometer] <<- 1217:26
amaretskiyboris-42 maybe put commit message notation into doc/specs/ ?17:26
boris-42it's not so big?17:26
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boris-42amaretskiy: you mean propose spec instead of dicussing it on Meeting?17:27
amaretskiyI propose to discuss and then write a spec17:27
meteorfoxboris-42: I'm with yfried_ , and I liked his initial suggestion of keeping it simple, and reviewers doing commit reviews17:27
amaretskiyso anyone can be pointed17:27
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meteorfoxcommit message*17:28
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boris-42meteorfox: yep message17:28
boris-42meteorfox: okay I can do that17:28
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boris-42But the idea is to have strict format and test that automatically checks it17:28
yfried_boris-42: [nova][neutron].. gets out of hand17:29
boris-42yfried_: why do you need [nova] [neutron] together?17:29
yfried_boris-42: if I write a patch for network wrapper17:29
boris-42yfried_: it will be [network]17:29
boris-42yfried_: the idea is to have 1 tag17:30
boris-42okay let me make spec17:30
andreykurilintags should not be strict17:30
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yfried_boris-42: andreykurilin: spec17:30
boris-42amaretskiy: yep but it will be nice to have them if they touch specific places17:30
boris-42so commit message body should be required17:30
boris-42if there is word "fix" it should point to bug17:30
boris-42and so on and so on17:31
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boris-42we can check a lot of17:31
yfried_boris-42: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/023032.html17:31
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boris-42yfried_: okay but commit message is not only about tags17:32
boris-42it's just one thing17:32
oanufrievLet the short message contain only tags of [subsystem][action]... and long description contain long description )17:32
yfried_boris-42: I understand. but let's cover that in spec17:32
boris-42yfried_: sure17:32
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boris-42next topics17:33
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boris-42#topic Avarage Reviewer CI17:33
*** openstack changes topic to "Avarage Reviewer CI (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:33
boris-42I would like to do make a bot17:33
boris-42that will put avarage reviewer opinion as comment to patch17:34
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yfried_boris-42: could you please explain?17:34
toskyand the goal is?17:34
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boris-42tosky: yfried_ the goal is next17:34
meteorfoxboris-42: not trying to be that guy, but I assume you meant average, not avarage?17:35
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boris-42There are bunch of patches that contains > 700-800 LOC17:35
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boris-42it just explains feeling of core reviewer when he see patch17:35
meteorfoxboris-42: ok, got it17:35
yfried_boris-42: so you want to -1 all patches above 800 LOC?17:35
boris-42yfried_: no I don't want to -117:36
toskyis it kind of soft-gate check?17:36
boris-42but put comment in review17:36
boris-42from Average Code Reviewer17:36
boris-42dpaterson: lines of code17:36
yfried_boris-42: Lines Of Code17:36
boris-42as well we can check is new code cover by unit tests17:36
yfried_boris-42: well I agree, but if it's not -1, it would be ignored17:36
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boris-42yfried_: so we can make some soft/hard rules17:37
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boris-42so if evertyhing is nice +117:37
yfried_boris-42: like most ppl always do recheck 3-10 times before they bother to see why tempest failed their patch17:37
boris-42if there are some bad stuff like 600 LOC there will be just comment17:37
boris-42if things are terrible (code not covered by unit test) it will be -117:37
boris-42or there 2000 LOC17:38
boris-42so 3 possible marks +1/0/-117:38
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yfried_boris-42: the basic idea seems reasonable17:38
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boris-42yfried_: so it's quite simple to implement17:39
boris-42yfried_: and we can store rules in rally_repo for example17:39
boris-42so it will be simple to add/remove/refactor them17:39
boris-42I mean we will make separated project17:40
yfried_boris-42: but I think, like your previous topic, we should publish more strict review guidelines before we let the bot do this stuff17:40
boris-42that is easy plugable17:40
meteorfoxyfried_: +117:40
boris-42yfried_: I think we can do this in parallel=)17:40
dpatersonthe bot would be useful for any project, it will go upstream somewhere?17:40
yfried_boris-42: agreed17:40
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boris-42dpaterson: yep on stackforge17:40
boris-42dpaterson: but it will be easy plugable like Rally17:40
yfried_boris-42: I mean that we should feel that it's ok to "shoot down" patches for being too long or covering too many things at once and point to a specific line in "rally guidelines"17:41
dpatersonboris-42: One doesn't already exist?  Seems like a common usecase17:41
yfried_boris-42: if you follow the unwritten guidelines - the bot's commit message would be the actual guidelines :)17:42
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boris-42yfried_: dpaterson https://github.com/boris-42/AvgReviewer17:42
boris-42yfried_: dpaterson going to move it to stackforge soon17:43
boris-42yfried_: nobody reads guidelines17:43
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boris-42yfried_: so bot == guidelins17:43
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boris-42so ok =)17:44
boris-42#topic Open Discussion17:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)"17:44
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boris-42do we need to discuss something?17:44
meteorfoxboris-42: the name of the AvgReview17:45
boris-42meteorfox: so?17:45
boris-42meteorfox: you dislike it ?17:45
boris-42meteorfox: we can call it CoreProtector17:45
meteorfoxboris-42: so the average part throws me off17:45
boris-42meteorfox: why?)17:45
meteorfoxboris-42: I think you are trying to use average as in common, popular opinion right?17:46
yfried_boris-42: +1 NerdReviewer17:46
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yfried_boris-42: "teacher's pet"17:46
boris-42meteorfox: what about NerdReviewer?17:46
boris-42I think it is really great17:47
amaretskiywhat about SkyNet ? :)17:47
meteorfoxboris-42: yeah, it's cool. Here's my suggestion, CommitSheriff17:47
meteorfoxoanufriev: lol17:48
boris-42ReviewNazi - I like17:48
yfried_I like skynet and sheriff17:48
boris-42nice btw17:48
boris-42it sound great + have great meaning17:48
oanufrievthree head dog17:49
yfried_Cerberus +117:49
meteorfoxboris-42: cerberus is taken :( https://github.com/stackforge/cerberus17:49
boris-42Cerberus +117:49
oanufrievonly really dead guy can pass17:49
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oanufrievok, cerberus-42 =)17:50
rvasiletsWe can call it Sean)17:50
boris-42rvasilets: Sean is bad reviewer17:50
boris-42he is not nitpicking17:50
boris-42just Joe17:50
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boris-42What about17:51
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boris-42Code Cerberus17:51
oanufrievCRBerus - CodeReviewBot_e_rus17:52
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boris-42lol CodeReviewBot_e_rus17:52
boris-42meteorfox: yfried_ any ideas?17:53
boris-42maybe back to17:53
yfried_boris-42: NerdReviewer, Cerberus.17:53
rvasiletsNavigator -second person on RaLLY RACES)17:54
boris-42I just see in comment "Ahhh fuuu Nerd Reviewer put -1 again!"17:54
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boris-42Okay let's use NerdReviewer for now17:54
meteorfoxboris-42: drop the Reviewer, just nerd  (The Social Network reference)17:55
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dpatersonnerd +217:55
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boris-42okay we need to actually finish meeting17:56
boris-42so I will publish this project on stackforge17:57
boris-42setup CI for it17:57
boris-42and put some base structure17:57
meteorfoxboris-42: ok17:57
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boris-42I think it won't take too much time to create base17:57
boris-42and integrate it17:57
boris-42okay see you guys!17:57
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:57
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 17 17:57:57 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-03-17-17.08.html17:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-03-17-17.08.txt17:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-03-17-17.08.log.html17:58
* ayoung sneaks in to get the good seat17:58
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* morganfainberg moves the podium so ayoung is in a bad seat.17:59
morganfainbergdolphm, ayoung, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods, amakarov, ajayaa, hogepodge, breton, lhcheng, nonameentername, samueldmq, htruta, amolock, wanghong, fmarco76, davechen https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting17:59
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ayoungmorganfainberg, heh, you didn't see what I did to the podium17:59
* morganfainberg wheels in the green beer for those who enjoy that irish day.18:00
* ayoung sticking to the Jamesons and Guinness18:00
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morganfainbergayoung, I prefer smithwicks to Guinness these days18:00
* morganfainberg gives it a few more moments for people to wake up.18:01
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morganfainbergok well then.18:02
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morganfainberg#start meeting Keystone18:02
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* topol wearing a green shirt18:02
ayoung    \m/_     (-v-)    _\m/18:02
morganfainberg#startmeeting Keystone18:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 17 18:02:46 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:02
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morganfainberggyee, so i like to type extra spaces >>18:03
morganfainbergOk, lets just get to it.18:03
morganfainbergK3 this is this week. Please review the last fernet token patches.18:03
morganfainberg#topic DB2 CI18:03
*** openstack changes topic to "DB2 CI (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:03
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marekdthat was fast.18:03
morganfainbergbknudson, o/ (since yanfengxi is not in channel)18:03
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bknudsonyanfenxi is in beijing and wasn't able to stay awake.18:04
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bknudsonso he asked me to cover this...18:04
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marekd2:04 AM18:04
marekdin Beijing18:04
bknudsonso the DB2 CI was disabled a while ago.18:04
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davechen_i am still awake, 2:04 here. :)18:04
bknudsonit was disabled because it was reporting merge failures18:04
bknudsonand nobody was around who could fix it.18:05
bknudsonI don't have access.18:05
morganfainbergayoung, noise, consistently broken, and was not presenting logs for 30 days, and no one was found to fix it18:05
dstanekstill in training, but i'll try to pay attention here too18:05
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topolwho owns it?  We can get you access18:05
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bknudsonso the request is to re-enable it, just so that it can get notifications so we can verify it works,18:06
bknudsonit won't be posting reviews18:06
gyeewas it a voting gate before?18:06
bknudsonwhen we think it's ready to post reviews we'll come ask fo rthat.18:06
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morganfainberggyee, no.18:06
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morganfainbergbknudson, ok so you want to move it back to sandbox capable18:06
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morganfainbergbknudson, i'm ok with that and will ask -infra, as long as it isn't posting anything until we're sure it is working.18:07
bknudsonmorganfainberg: right.18:07
gyeehow much time does db2 add to jenkins?18:07
bknudsonmorganfainberg: ok, thanks.18:07
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morganfainbergbknudson, before it posts stuff again, we need to have a clear escalation when it's broken, it needs to retain logs for 30 days.18:08
marekdbknudson: is that DB2 CI running on VM provided by Rackspace,HP and others?18:08
bknudsongyee: obviously it runs on its own, and it's hard to compare since we've got our own system...18:08
morganfainbergbknudson, preferably someone looking at it, vs. keystone having to ask them why it's broken.18:08
ayoungI vote yes...any additional data points on our DB side are valuable18:08
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bknudsonmarekd: we've got our own systems.18:08
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bknudsonone of the issues is that we didn't have enough systems and we've added more.18:09
marekdbknudson: so, all VM's  simply configure keystone to point to that remote backend somewhere else, ok18:09
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bknudsonI believe these vms have their own db2 instance.18:09
morganfainbergok i'll ask -infra to re-enable as long as it isn't posting anything.18:09
morganfainberguntil other issues are addressed.18:09
gyeebknudson, that's fine so as long as it doesn't slow down jenkins considerably overall18:09
morganfainberggyee, it's 3rd party CI.18:09
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bknudsonit actually doesn't run all of the tests, only ones marked for keystone.18:10
morganfainberggyee, so it should run mostly faster than the rest of the gate based on a smaller subset of tests.18:10
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morganfainberggyee, and it wont blockup the actual gate pipeline (3rd party ci is check-only)18:11
ayoungCan we all agree yes and move on?  I think this is a non issue18:11
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gyeemorganfainberg, sure lets reenable then18:11
marekdayoung: yes18:11
bknudsonI'll let yanfengxi know.18:11
gyeebknudson, he'll need to fix failures at 2am :)18:11
ayounghe needs to give perms to bknudson to do it18:11
morganfainberg#info DB2 CI will be requested to be re-enabled but will not post until other issues (failures and 30 day log retention) have been addressed.18:12
morganfainberg#topic Feature Freeze Exceptions18:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Feature Freeze Exceptions (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:12
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morganfainbergsince kilo3 is this week.. we have a couple FFEs that will be requested.18:12
ayounghow much work is left for Reseller?18:12
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morganfainbergI've spoken to henrynash to sponsor the two major FFEs18:12
morganfainbergthe first FFE is reseller.18:12
raildoayoung, we need to finish just one more patch (bye bye domain table)18:13
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henrynashyep, happy to sponsor18:13
morganfainbergrodrigods, raildo, please send a message to the -dev mailing list requesting the FFE.18:13
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ayoungraildo, and how close is that...link?18:13
raildomorganfainberg, ok18:13
gyeea moment of silence for domains18:13
morganfainbergplease say henrynash will sponsor, link to the code, and show that it's mostly reviewing.18:13
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marekdmorganfainberg: http://paste.openstack.org/show/192951/ this is also after couple iterations of reviews. and since we were blocked by a bug we couldn't merge earlier: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152156/18:13
raildoayoung, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/161854/18:13
rodrigodsmorganfainberg, great, thanks18:13
ayoungwhy WIP?18:13
raildoayoung,because we don't finish the implementation yet18:14
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ayoungOK....how much work?18:14
morganfainbergThe second FFE, is the rest of henrynash's domainSQL, henrynash please send the FFE request to the -dev mailing list. I know it's just the final couple patches.18:14
henrynashmorganfainberg: will do18:14
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raildoadn we have a problem when we're trying drop the table18:14
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morganfainbergmarekd, you or marco are welcome to send an FFE request for those.18:15
ayoungraildo, ok,  hit me up after the meeting if you need help18:15
marekdmorganfainberg: ok18:15
morganfainbergmarekd, s/those/that18:15
ayoungthat should be relatively simple to knock out18:15
raildoayoung,  ok, thanks :)18:15
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ayoungor impossible...we'll see.18:15
morganfainbergwhen sending to the dev mailing list be sure to use [keystone] and include FFE request in the subject18:15
morganfainbergbe descriptive18:15
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morganfainberga few other BPs have been moved to post kilo3 since they are non-API impacting (and not really "Features")18:16
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raildomorganfainberg, ok18:16
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marekdmorganfainberg: ack.18:16
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morganfainbergplease respond to the ML topics (everyone) for/against/concerns once tehy are sent.18:16
ayoungraildo, do it as two migrations.  One for the FK, one for the table drop18:16
ayoungwill make it easier to sort out/18:16
henrynashbknduson, stevemar, lbragstad: there are two domain config ones that we can probably get in ahead of k3 since they have been extensively reviewed: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159928/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/165075/18:16
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raildoayoung, the FK part is working, but when we try drop the table, we got a error. i'll talk with you later :)18:17
morganfainbergthe ML topic will be used to either grant the exception or push to liberty. Realize it is not exclusively the keystone team involved in granting the FFE, i will be conferring with ttx and release management as well.18:17
bknudsonare all these reviews on the https://gist.github.com/dolph/651c6a1748f69637abd0 page?18:17
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morganfainbergbknudson, no. those reviews are just for k3 now [except the domain SQL one]18:18
bknudsonthat's where I've been going to find reviews.18:18
morganfainbergbknudson, since someone else has starred it18:18
lbragstadshould we put them on the review page?18:18
lbragstadI can star them18:18
morganfainbergbknudson, so basically the fernet tokens only18:18
marekdmorganfainberg: dolphm bknudson : https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152156/ is not18:18
morganfainberglbragstad, no.18:18
morganfainberglbragstad, wait till the FFEs are granted18:18
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henrynashmorgainfainberg: remind me, keystone client library additions don’t need an FFE, right?18:18
lbragstadmorganfainberg: ok18:18
stevemarhenrynash, nope18:19
morganfainberghenrynash, client and middleware and pycadf have no FFEs needed18:19
bknudsonat some point we're going to release a keystoneclient, so they have to be in before that.18:19
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morganfainbergthere will be a release of client right before RC18:19
ayoungyeah...let's queue up the client questions for later18:19
henrynashbknduson: indeed18:19
ayoungI have a few...18:19
morganfainbergthat client release will coincide with the release (final tagging)18:19
morganfainbergbut for today, the Fernet token patches are the priority18:20
bknudsonbtw, this means that bp https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack/?searchtext=auth-token-use-client isn't going to be done for K.18:20
ayoungmorganfainberg,   remove " Group role revocation invalidates all user tokens"18:20
morganfainberg#info Fernet Token Final Reviews are priority for k318:20
ayoungwe are not going to address that18:20
bknudsonsince it requires changes to auth_token middleware that depend on client changes.18:20
morganfainbergayoung, i can't someone else has it starred18:20
morganfainbergayoung, it's not exclusively my list.18:20
ayoungClone it18:21
ayoungIts git!18:21
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morganfainbergayoung, i don't have the bot that updates it.18:21
morganfainbergayoung, that's dolphs code.18:21
morganfainbergand i haven't seen it.18:21
ayoungI know, but for the k3 list on launchpad it should be gone18:21
morganfainbergayoung, it was tagging 2 bugs, i missed one18:22
morganfainberg#topic requirements.txt: Should requirements.txt be for the expected installation18:22
*** openstack changes topic to "requirements.txt: Should requirements.txt be for the expected installation (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:22
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openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x90b8750>18:22
ayoungskipped one18:22
morganfainbergayoung, that is a patch dstanek needed to update a comment on18:23
ayoungthat is on the k3 list, and tagged as needs code review18:23
ayoungother than that it is good>?18:23
morganfainbergit's done, just a test enhancement that could land now/post k318:23
stevemarayoung, i think we can close that one out now18:23
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morganfainbergwasn't going to close it till the last patch was landed but that is minimal/doesn't need massive eyes atm.18:23
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morganfainberg#topic requirements.txt: Should requirements.txt be for the expected installation?18:24
*** openstack changes topic to "requirements.txt: Should requirements.txt be for the expected installation? (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:24
morganfainbergbknudson, o/18:24
bknudsonah, so I posted a review...18:24
bknudsonthat got -1d18:24
morganfainberg#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/162360/18:25
stevemarbknudson, you were finally on the receiving end18:25
bknudsony, that was it.18:25
bknudsonessentially moving fernet requirements to test-requirements.txt18:25
bknudsonsince my understanding was that we only have default config requirements in requirements.txt18:25
ayoungDo we have mysql in requirements?18:25
morganfainbergmy view is test-requirements should only be for testing.18:25
bknudsonnow, if we change that policy ... maybe we should also have ldap and ldappool in requirements.txt?18:26
morganfainberganything that could be used for runtime should be in main requirements.txt18:26
morganfainbergbknudson, i would support that18:26
stevemarbknudson, we probably should18:26
topolbknudson +++18:26
bknudsonvote on it?18:26
morganfainbergdamn enter key.18:27
gyeeso why we even need test-requirements.txt then?18:27
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bknudsonthere will still be test-only requirements...18:27
gyeesince now everything will be enabled by default18:27
* topol yay a vote. lets see who is paying attention18:27
morganfainberggyee, yes there are test-only things18:27
haneefHow about different providers for dogpile? where does it fit?18:27
stevemarthe documentation stuff will be there too18:27
ayoungwe don't even have mySQL in test-requirements18:28
morganfainberghaneef, we would be adding any runtim dep - the only special case is liky mongo for licensing reasons18:28
morganfainberghaneef, and that is a special case across openstack18:28
stevemarusing test-req for 'optional' isn't right18:28
bknudsonI don't think mysql is on pypi?18:28
bknudsonb/c oracle.18:28
morganfainbergbknudson, mysqldb is, but i think we get that another way18:28
ayoungSo...on the client side, we are splitting things into separate repos due to dependencies.  This is where the python packaging is dumb18:28
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dstaneki always thought that test-requirements was actually for the optional stuff18:29
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ayoungif we have a plugin/extension/driver that needs a special piece of code, we should be able to package that separately without having to split the repo18:29
stevemardstanek, that's what we kept telling people :P18:29
ayoungwell, it is for installing things we need to run tests18:29
ayoung so it has the optional flavor, since you can do a minimal install without it18:30
topolwhaat?  test-requirements is for test. come on man!18:30
morganfainberg#startvote Should all runtime requirements (that don't have specific licensing concerns) move from test-requirements.txt to requirements.txt (test-requirements no longer used for "optional")? yes,no,obligatory-yes-but-i-want-to-be-a-snowflake-answer18:30
openstackBegin voting on: Should all runtime requirements (that don't have specific licensing concerns) move from test-requirements.txt to requirements.txt (test-requirements no longer used for "optional")? Valid vote options are yes, no, obligatory-yes-but-i-want-to-be-a-snowflake-answer.18:30
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.18:30
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ayoungdstanek, is python really going to continue to be so stiffnecked about this?18:30
ayoung#vote no18:30
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gyee#vote yes18:30
morganfainberg#vote yes18:30
samueldmq#vote yes18:30
topol#vote yes18:30
ayoungIt's not licensing, it is dependencies on install18:30
marekd#vote yes18:30
bknudson#vote no18:30
bretonwho will be the original one?18:31
breton#vote yes18:31
jamielennox#vote no18:31
dstanek#vote no18:31
bknudsonvoting no just because this is how we've always worked so why change it.18:31
morganfainbergayoung, magically knowing what to install to turn something on is a terrible experience18:31
jamielennoxbut torn18:31
dolphm#vote no18:31
morganfainbergayoung, it doesn't prevent redhat from bundling deps differently18:31
ayoungmorganfainberg, having to find the LDAP deps if you are not running LDAP is also a bad one18:31
ayoungor postgresql18:31
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haneef#vote no18:31
dstanekhas anyone talked to distributions about this?18:31
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jamielennoxmorganfainberg: it expects (for example redhat) package maintainer to go and find all this for themselves18:31
openstackyes (6): gyee, morganfainberg, marekd, samueldmq, topol, breton18:31
openstackno (6): dstanek, ayoung, bknudson, haneef, dolphm, jamielennox18:31
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gyeeevenly spread18:31
morganfainbergtest-requirements is the wrong place for "optional" python dependencies18:32
dstanekayoung: this isn't really a python thing18:32
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topolso ayoung brings up a valid consumability point18:32
ayoungdstanek, distributions are going to have to update how they idenityf what to install with what...it will likely break their scripts\18:32
stevemar#vote yes18:32
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ayoungdstanek, yes it is, cuz I can only deploy one package from one repo18:32
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bknudsonstevemar: the tiebreaker.18:32
raildo#vote yes18:32
ayoungand that is due to python, not git, and not packaging18:32
morganfainbergdstanek, packagers have told me both sides, the one that got me was "i can't make X a dependency in my package cause it's in test-requirements, move it to requirements or i can't support it because $policy"18:32
topolwe should not put something in requirements if its not always required and can easily break stuff18:32
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dolphmmorganfainberg: that's a broken $policy18:33
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stevemartopol, how would it break stuff?18:33
bknudsontopol: changing your vote?18:33
ayoungcan we hold off on this one until we get feedback please?18:33
dstanekayoung: normally you would use the extras_require to say 'hey, i'm using ldap and here are the extra requirements'18:33
morganfainbergdolphm, putting things in test-requirements because they are optional is worse imo18:33
lhcheng#vote no18:33
bretontopol: if it's in the main tree and covered with tests, it's working18:33
lbragstad#vote no18:33
morganfainbergdolphm, that is very much the wrong place for these things18:33
stevemarbreton, ++18:33
lbragstadfor the reasons bknudson listed18:33
bknudsonayoung: you know someone who can provide feedback on your side?18:33
ayoungbknudson, yes18:33
topolayoung can you elaborate on your ldap concern18:33
morganfainbergthis includes cryptography, msgpack, ldap, ldappool, etc18:33
dolphmmorganfainberg: is there a broader community concern on that?18:33
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ayoungtopol, LDAP pulls in a native library18:33
jamielennoxmorganfainberg: isn't this a TC question anyway?18:34
dolphmmorganfainberg: (i wouldn't want to see keystone deviate from the community consensus on usage of test-requirements)18:34
morganfainbergjamielennox, not really.18:34
topolayoung and if the library isnt there?18:34
ayoungso by putting LDAP in the python tree, you pull in pythn-ldaop, which pulls in openldap libs18:34
gyeemorganfainberg have an excellent point on *user experience*18:34
morganfainbergdolphm, i think we're flat out doing it wrong in python.18:34
ayoungtopol, I think with PIP, it is even worse18:34
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gyeeit would suck if I enabled a feature and then found out I need to explicitly install more packages18:34
openstackyes (8): gyee, morganfainberg, marekd, samueldmq, topol, raildo, breton, stevemar18:34
openstackno (8): dstanek, ayoung, lhcheng, bknudson, haneef, lbragstad, dolphm, jamielennox18:34
stevemarhow contentious18:34
bretongyee: ++18:34
ayoungfor MySQL and LDAP you have to have the devel version of the native libs installed to do the native bindings18:34
bknudsonI vote to put it off, let's have an action to hear back from packagers.18:34
topolgyee makes a good point18:35
morganfainbergdolphm, this isn't openstack community this is doing it wrong in python world. if we want a separate dependency tree, we should be splitting the stuff up into separate python packages18:35
topolI agree with bknudson18:35
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stevemargyee, that's always been the case18:35
henrynash#vote no18:35
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gyeestevemar, then lets make it less suck18:35
dolphmgyee: some of those packages might require more binary deps - which sucks in python land imo18:35
dstanekgyee: that mean you always have to install everything? what about things that have a dep on a system package?18:35
bknudsonas far as our packaging goes, I don't think it will cause a problem either way.18:35
stevemargyee, thats why i voted yes18:35
haneefgyee: it would also suck if  my installation is  stuck due to a dependency which I won't be using it18:35
dolphmmorganfainberg: that'd be fantastic18:35
gyeemost of us are shipping a distro18:35
morganfainbergdolphm, i have $ideas for liberty ;)18:36
ayoungwe split the python-keystoneclient repo for just this reason18:36
topolhenrynash, what sis your concern?18:36
dolphmmorganfainberg: test-requirements.txt was invented by the openstack community18:36
gyeea distro, not distro and a bunch of optional deps18:36
ayoungthe client is relatively consistant, but we pushed kerberos and SAML codes to separate repos18:36
davechen_#vote no18:36
topolIm scared we will rush this decision and really break folks18:36
ayoungLet's float it to the -dev list and get some wider feedback, and revisit18:36
morganfainbergtopol, it wont really break anyone shipping a distro, and anyone doing CI/CD already has addressed most of this.18:37
morganfainbergbut in short. we'll defer this till liberty18:37
* topol trying to my yes back in the bottle18:37
bknudsonthere are some discussion already going on in community.18:37
gyeeas a user, I would expect a distro contains everything that I need18:37
morganfainbergbased on this. vote18:37
henrynashtopol: I’m worried about a) deviating from openstack standard, and b) loading stuff that’s not strictly needed into production systems (less you install the better for secuirty)18:37
morganfainbergwe'll do further talking at the summit and on the list18:37
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morganfainbergbknudson, i am going to -2 that patch though for now.18:37
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bknudsonwait, my patch was about following the current policy...18:37
bknudsonnot deviating.18:37
topolhenrynash, make sense18:38
topolmakes sense  :-)18:38
openstackyes (8): gyee, morganfainberg, marekd, samueldmq, topol, raildo, breton, stevemar18:38
openstackno (10): dstanek, ayoung, lhcheng, bknudson, davechen_, haneef, lbragstad, dolphm, jamielennox, henrynash18:38
morganfainbergbknudson, because i don't want to shuffle everything around right now.18:38
topol(that s makes a world of difference)18:38
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topol#vote no18:38
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openstackVoted on "Should all runtime requirements (that don't have specific licensing concerns) move from test-requirements.txt to requirements.txt (test-requirements no longer used for "optional")?" Results are18:38
openstackyes (7): gyee, morganfainberg, marekd, samueldmq, raildo, breton, stevemar18:38
openstackno (11): dstanek, ayoung, lhcheng, bknudson, davechen_, haneef, lbragstad, dolphm, jamielennox, henrynash, topol18:38
bknudsonit's 2 lines.18:38
morganfainbergbknudson, and if we're doing massive policy adherance lots of stuff needs to shuffle.18:38
morganfainbergbknudson, yes. we have lots of non-default things in there.18:39
morganfainbergrelating to PKI tokens as well18:39
ayoungOy Vey!18:39
dolphmgenesis in keystone? https://github.com/openstack/keystone/commit/72e4edcc12f4741bd945adf777fe43f3ffcd62d618:39
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morganfainbergmoving optional to test-requirements was an awful thing. it has caused a lot of questions and "why can't X work" with a response of "go install thing because we don't make it a hard requirement"18:40
dolphmmorganfainberg: i might change my vote to yes after seeing my own commit :P18:40
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topolwow things were simpler in 201118:40
ayoungmorganfainberg, lets work with dstank to have a better modular install story18:40
morganfainbergayoung, liberty.18:40
gyeetopol, 1969, nothing by peace and love18:40
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ayoungif we can get away from "separate git repo to avoid depednecy hell"  I'll be happy18:40
bknudsonok, so for K we're going to stick with fernet requirements in requirements.txt ?18:40
morganfainbergayoung, we wont be able to with pypi18:41
ayoungmorganfainberg,  on the client first, and then Liberty for Server.18:41
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morganfainbergayoung, and pbr.18:41
ayoungmorganfainberg, THEN WE BREAK THEM!18:41
bknudsonwe can just make it a policy where we pick based on what we know.18:41
ayoungWE BREAK THAT TOO18:41
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marekdrewrite everythin from scratch18:41
morganfainbergbknudson, ok so let me change my stance18:41
jamielennoxayoung's ptl slogan18:41
dstanekthis is really a packager issue - 'apt-get install keystone keystone-ldap ... etc' - right?18:41
topolplease remember the user experience concerns18:41
morganfainbergdstanek, pip install and apt-get install18:42
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ayoungjamielennox, life philosophy really.  I was, and will always in my heart be, an Infantryman18:42
gyeethere's a man who lived18:42
morganfainbergbknudson, so my stance is: if it's pure python it can always go in requirements. if it has exceptional binary deps lets put it in test-requirements for now (ldap)18:42
topolmorganfainberg that makes sense18:42
haneefThat  is better18:42
dolphmmorganfainberg: pki & openssl?18:43
bknudsonlet's write a pure-python ldap client.18:43
morganfainbergdolphm, opensssl isn't exceptional.18:43
ayoungmorganfainberg, we shouldprobably get MySQL into test-requirements then18:43
gyeeand xmlsec118:43
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ayoungpki and openssl is even worse18:43
bknudsonremember lxml?18:43
ayoungthose can't be done by package requirements except at the distro level18:43
morganfainbergif it has historically been in requirements DONT MOVE IT until we decide how we're handling the splitup/new install etc18:43
gyeeyes that one too18:43
morganfainbergthis is for new requirements18:43
dstanekmorganfainberg: to me that is harder to draw the line - do i now have to know how projects are implemented?18:43
morganfainbergso crypto and msgpack should be evaluated18:43
ayoungwe need to get the cryptography.py solution in place for PKI etc.18:44
bknudsoncryptography must rely on openssl.18:44
ayoungBut not today18:44
gyeedstanek, I am on the user experience side18:44
* dolphm finds it best to refer to the library as pypi/cryptography to avoid confusion18:44
morganfainbergdstanek, try and install it, is it awful to pip install it?18:44
dolphmbknudson: it does not, afaik18:44
morganfainbergdstanek did it require a bunch of extra apt-gets (e.g. ldap libs dev)18:44
haneefayoung:  There was a review last week to replace  openssl system calls with a crypto lib18:44
dstanekmorganfainberg: things will go fine if i have the required system packages already so i may not think twice18:45
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morganfainbergdstanek, since we aren't adding more g-rs this cycle, this is largely deferred18:45
morganfainbergdstanek, the only question is msgpack and crypto18:45
ayounghaneef, link?18:45
dstanekmorganfainberg: fair enough18:45
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bknudsonbtw - we need a newer cryptography, we're using features that aren't in 0.418:45
morganfainbergdstanek, so, for this cycle address those two and in liberty we work on better stuff.18:45
morganfainbergbknudson, yes there should be a g-r update18:46
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morganfainbergbrowne, yay!18:46
morganfainbergbrowne, thats cool.18:46
bknudsonthat must rely on openssl?18:46
ayoungAh...cool.  that is for the setup.  Need to -2 that one18:46
haneefayoung: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/163088/18:46
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ayoungIts right, but not right enopguh18:46
topolbrowne, Really?  we can do that now?  Thats awesome!18:46
amakarovwow, at long last!18:46
marekdbrowne: does it also spawns new process?18:46
dolphmmorganfainberg: i believe alex gaynor implemented everything we needed to replace openssl while sitting at the keystone pod in atlanta18:46
dolphmmarekd: no18:47
morganfainbergbknudson, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/164289/18:47
brownemarekd: no, library calls.  this patch only replace rsa key generation18:47
dolphmpypi/cryptography implements it's own primitives18:47
bknudsonmorganfainberg: y, +2 it.18:47
browneand requires python-cryptography 0.818:47
dolphmbrowne: going to do validation next?18:47
morganfainbergbknudson, i can only +1 requirements18:47
dolphmbrowne: does global requirements require 0.8?18:48
brownedolphm: yeah, i want to, more work for sure.18:48
dolphmoh i see the review18:48
ayoungdoesn't matter, we want to kill that code path anyway.18:48
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ayoungselfsigning was never the right approach for SSL, and if we do it, it should not be embedded in the keystone code18:49
dolphmbrowne: add "Depends-On: I98941cce82d3c33bcc95ecc48ecff413ef81664a" to your keystone patch commit message18:49
ayoungits not their code that is wrong, it is ours18:49
gyeeayoung, by they are two different issues18:49
morganfainbergbknudson, highly contentious, with people switching votes18:49
gyeeone is about key management18:49
dolphmbrowne: IF you don't want your patch to ever be tested without cryptography > 0.818:49
ayounggyee, ^^18:49
gyeethe other to replace openssl command line call18:49
ayounggyee the openssl command line call can go away, and be replaced by the certmonger call18:50
gyeeayoung, so certmonger does both?18:50
ayoungI mean, where they *fixed* things it is arguable irrelevant.18:50
topolayoung, VERY COOL!18:50
browneis certmonger another command line?18:50
morganfainbergbrowne, yes, but it can talk to secure cert stores.18:51
morganfainbergbrowne, vs needing a cert in an insecure location(ish) thing.18:51
ayoungcommand line is irrelevant18:51
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lbragstad~ 9 minutes left18:51
ayoungwe need the library for the hot path18:51
topolayoung, doesnt command line imply a performance hit?18:51
ayoungsigning and validating certs18:51
ayoungtopol, this is at setup18:51
morganfainbergbrowne, there are further discussons to using certmonger, but that is not today18:51
ayoungso irrelevant18:51
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topolayoung, K18:52
morganfainbergok so back on topic18:52
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ayoungtopol, certmonger is just for provisioning,  we need cryptography.py for keystoneclient18:52
morganfainbergrequirements: nothing is moving, please vote on bknudson's patch.18:52
morganfainbergi wont -218:52
ayoungserver calls in to client to sign tokens18:52
browneayoung: command line is not irrelevant with keystoneclient anyway.  i was seeing huge numbers of open file handles due to the exec (and chatty neutron)18:52
morganfainbergayoung, please defer this to later18:52
morganfainbergif you want msgpack and crypto over in test-requirements please +2/+118:53
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morganfainbergif you don't care, no vote -1.18:53
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morganfainbergno vote/-118:53
bknudsonalright, thanks.18:54
morganfainbergi'll either press approve based on overall score on post k3 or -2/abandon18:54
topolis there a good reason to move beyond the "it should be there"18:54
ayoungvote yes18:54
ayoungvote for pedro18:54
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gyeevote for jeb18:55
morganfainbergthis is a simple case where overall score will win, a +2/+1 is 1 point for, a -1 is a vote against. just score the patch the way you feel.18:55
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topolif folks are used to it being in requirements we just cause pain by moving to test18:55
morganfainbergtopol, this is just for fernet18:55
morganfainbergthe 2 items bknudson wanted to move18:55
morganfainbergcrypto and msgpack18:55
morganfainbergnothing else is moving18:55
topolK, so no larger impact. got it18:55
bknudsonthose are both new18:55
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morganfainbergnext quick topic18:56
topolK. brad slow on St Patricks day (and all other days)18:56
morganfainberg#topic Liberty Specs18:56
*** openstack changes topic to "Liberty Specs (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:56
morganfainbergI will be sending the announcemenrt that liberty spec proposals will be open as soon as K3 has been tagged18:56
morganfainberg#info morganfainberg will be sending the announcemenrt that liberty spec proposals will be open as soon as K3 has been tagged18:56
morganfainbergthe goal is to make it so we can have spec discussions (like at the midcycle) but at the summit this time18:57
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marekdso we should start working on the specs right about almost now.18:57
morganfainberggetitng almost a full ½ dev cycle on specs by L1 so we can avoid piling everything into the 3rd milestone18:57
morganfainbergmarekd, that is why we're going to open spec proposals now :)18:58
samueldmqmorganfainberg, ++18:58
morganfainbergmarekd, well this week :)18:58
marekdmorganfainberg: that's why i said "almost now" :-)18:58
morganfainbergthats all i have.18:58
morganfainbergand we should clear out of here for the nice -infra folks18:58
morganfainbergdrink an irish drink or something18:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 17 18:59:05 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-03-17-18.02.html18:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-03-17-18.02.txt18:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-03-17-18.02.log.html18:59
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fungihidey-ho, neighbors!19:00
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jeblairmordred: are you ops for a reason?19:00
mordredjeblair: nope. probably op-d myself a while back to kick a bad actor19:01
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jeblair#startmeeting infra19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 17 19:01:28 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:01
jeblair#link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:01
jeblair#link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-03-10-19.01.html19:01
jeblair#topic Actions from last meeting19:01
jeblairjeblair nibalizer work through openstackinfra-httpd publishing19:01
jeblairjeblair fix openstackinfra account on puppetforge19:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
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jeblairso i did the second thing19:01
jeblairso we should actually have perms to publish to the forge19:02
fungiyay for stuff getting done!19:02
jeblairthe first one is still in progress19:02
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jeblairnotably, we're reworking the tag push job to do tag versioning19:02
fungii saw one of those changes fly by earlier19:02
jeblairat any rate, this is unblocked19:02
jeblair#topic Schedule next project renames19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Schedule next project renames (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
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jeblairi'd like to continue to defer this until the governance changes land for bindep and os-client-config19:03
anteayamakes sense19:03
fungiokie-dokie. also we want to update the table default encoding in trove for the db when it happens19:03
mordredis that our oldest outstanding still-active bug?19:04
fungisince that needs gerrit to be offline while we restart the trove instance19:04
SpamapSfungi: same db as the subunit2sql ?19:04
fungiSpamapS: no, the utf-8 default19:04
jeblairfungi: we may have downtime before then19:04
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jeblairbut if not, yes :)19:04
fungijeblair: fair point, we have the distro upgrade coming19:04
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Swift logs)19:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Swift logs) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:enable_swift,n,z19:05
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jeblairwe have some images with the index overwrite bug fixed19:05
jeblairbut about 3 images in hpcloud failed to build this morning19:05
jeblairor, well, at least 3 of one type19:05
jeblairpossibly more overall19:05
jeblairso we can probably verify that bug is fixed on the ones that did build19:06
jeblairbut we do still need more images built before we can consider it completely solved19:06
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jeblairaside from that... are we now ready to switch over python jobs?19:06
jeblair(heh, i'm assuming we still haven't done that -- correct me if i'm wrong)19:06
mordredjeblair: I am ready to switch over python jobs19:07
anteayaI thought we did19:07
jeblairanteaya: you are correct, we did19:07
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jeblairso next question, aside from the index problem, are there any other problems we've seen since that merged?19:08
anteayaI have not seen any19:09
funginothing so far afaik19:09
mordredI haven't heard anyone scream19:09
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jeblairthen i guess we're ready for jhesketh to propose the next step.  i'm not sure if we're ready for devstack jobs yet, or do we need to do more non-devstack jobs first19:09
fungiwe have 99 problems, but so far this has not been one19:09
jeblairso let's ask him when he's online :)19:09
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB)19:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:10
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:dib-nodepool,n,z19:10
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jeblairanything blocking this?19:10
mordredyeah - Ng is trying to get rackspace to enable glance on his account19:10
mordredso that he can test the configdrive changes there19:10
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jeblairoh that's great!19:11
mordredotherwise, I need to stop futzing with puppet apply and dive back into teh nodepool-shade patch19:11
fungii've been uploading more bindep changes to get the features we'll need implemented for distro package management, and doing some more experimental testing on nova for the job run-time database config abstraction19:11
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jeblairfungi: should we go ahead and add infra-core to bindep?19:12
jeblair(anticipating its move to infra)19:12
fungii'm fine with that19:12
fungilifeless already said he was cool with it19:12
anteayahe did19:12
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/15809819:13
jeblair#info infra-core added to bindep19:13
SpamapSI've been poking at a simplified way to spin up a nova-api with fake stuff on the backend for testing nodepool easily.19:13
fungiis the highest priority one there, since no jobs pass without it19:13
SpamapS(and keystone and glance too)19:13
fungihence all my other changes depending on it19:13
anteayafungi: I was just about to review that one19:13
jeblairSpamapS: i'm really keen on nodepool testing!19:13
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fungithanks anteaya19:14
anteayafungi: will do so after meetings19:14
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SpamapSjeblair: yeah, I think the best bang-for-our-buck will be simpler functional testing.19:14
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SpamapSnot that it's super hard to spin up a devstack, but if we can have a single command that spins up what would be devstack in 1s... that seems like a useful thing for other purposes too. :)19:14
jeblairianw added config file validation to nodepool19:15
jeblairi think we should add a job to system-config that runs that on our nodepool config file19:15
ianwjeblair: changes out for that19:15
jeblairand once that's in place, i'll be much happier approving nodepool changes :)19:15
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ianwalso, i'd appreciate some eyes on the f21 d-i-b build -> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/163982/19:15
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jeblairianw: cool, point me at them!19:16
ianwclarkb has verified that one also19:16
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ianw#link https://review.openstack.org/16490119:16
ianw#link https://review.openstack.org/16490419:16
fungithanks. i'll check those out today19:16
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Migration to Zanata)19:17
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Migration to Zanata) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:17
ianw^ reviews, i can put them in the dib-nodepool topic if you want19:17
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:zanata,n,z19:17
jeblairpleia2: you're still iterating on that?19:17
pleia2< StevenK> pleia2: Update for meeting. I am still plugging away, trying to convince maven-release-plugin to build so maven-sortpom-plugin can build, so zanata-parent can.19:18
pleia2so that's the client packaging stuff19:18
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pleia2packaging the java client, obviously (maven)19:18
jeblairwhy are we packaging the java client?19:18
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pleia2because we need it installed server side to run some of the automated scripts19:19
jeblairpleia2: what scripts?19:19
pleia2it's the first work item on the spec19:19
SpamapSCould it just be run from {however upstrema packages it} ?19:19
jeblairso it is...19:19
pleia2all the stuff transifex does now, like submitting changes to gerrit when they're over 75% complete and such19:19
pleia2AJaeger is more familiar with the scripts19:20
jeblairpleia2: but we run that in zuul jobs19:20
pleia2ok, well we need to client somewhere in order to process these things19:20
pleia2and to use it in our infrastructure, it should be packaged19:21
fungiso installed server side in this case means actually on the proposal job worker19:21
mordredif we're going to package things to install onto our test nodes, we'll need to figure out repository management.19:21
fungior maybe some specialized equivalent to the proposal worker19:21
mordredI would point out that thus far we have never made packaging something in distro packages a pre-req to installation in our infrastructure19:21
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jeblairso we could run this on the zanata server, or we could emulate what we're doing now and run it on the proposal slave19:22
jeblairpleia2: what os will the zanata server be running?19:22
fungiyeah, that's definitely a good question. how does release management of the client tie into the packaging plan? are we going to be rebuilding packages for it?19:22
pleia2jeblair: Ubuntu 14.0419:22
pleia2fungi: that's a question for StevenK during AU daytime, he may have a plan, and if not, we should talk about one if we are packaging19:23
jeblairokay, so i think we need to have more of a discussion here, since i have no idea what we will do with a locally built package (we've never had one before)19:23
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fungiright, if someone is working on getting a package of the client into ubuntu universe, then i guess it's not directly a burden on the infra team19:24
jeblairyeah, if that's what that means, then we might be set19:24
jeblair(assuming the timeframe works, and we aren't going to require new features rapidly)19:24
pleia2I don't think the intent was to push it upstream19:25
pleia2maybe a ppa or something19:25
jeblairso let's fungi, mordred, pleia2, jeblair, and StevenK chat later19:25
fungibut if we're building packages for it, then we're distributing them onto the server ourselves, and lose a lot of the actual benefit to it being packages at all (vs doing a 'make && make install' or whatever)19:25
pleia2sounds good19:25
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pleia2as for the puppet module, cinerama has continued work on that and we've gone through some iterations19:25
fungiyeah, just want to make sure the benefit outweighs the ongoing effort there19:25
pleia2that's this one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/147947/19:25
cineramayup. next big challenge is the openid stuff19:25
cineramadon't forget the apache proxy one19:26
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SpamapShttp://zanata.org/help/cli/cli-install/ <-- looks pretty straight forward and probably similar to the way gerrit is installed yes?19:26
pleia2on line 135 of this etherpad we have plans for subsequent patches defined, so this first one doesn't continue to overwhelm us https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zanata-install19:26
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pleia2SpamapS: I think the "it should be packaged" thing came out of summit, or there was miscommunication, either way it ended up as the first work item on the spec :\19:26
pleia2but we'll talk about it later19:27
SpamapSpleia2: well technically it is packaged.. on maven. ;)19:27
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pleia2yeah, always has been19:28
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pleia2that's it from me19:28
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jeblairyeah.  i think we're not all on the same page about it.  we probably glossed over something or forgot to write something down.  but we'll talk about it when StevenK is up and fix it before we get too far down the road.19:28
jeblairi think we'll work it out and manage.  :)19:29
fungiright. i mostly want to make sure we're not creating unnecessary makework for people19:29
SpamapSI just downloaded the dist.tar.gz to my trusty box, and it works w/ no additional steps19:29
jeblairpleia2: thanks!19:29
SpamapSMaven and java packaging are _incredibly_ hard to do up to Debian policy standards.19:29
pleia2apparently it's a bit of a beast to package, so not doing it would be good I think19:29
pleia2SpamapS: yeah19:29
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jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet)19:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Downstream Puppet) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:29
fungii agree someone likely misunderstood the context in which the word "package" was thrown around19:29
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:downstream-puppet,n,z19:29
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nibalizerthis is in flight https://review.openstack.org/#/c/162830/19:30
nibalizerand this quietly merged: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/162819/19:30
nibalizerso if there are no objections ill put up ore patches to do what 162819 did to more node defs19:30
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jeblairnibalizer: no objections here, thanks!19:31
nibalizerjeblair: you want a patch per node or a big doom patch or do you have a preference?19:31
yolandaso nibalizer,as we were talking, it should be good to isolate puppet install on a module, what do you think?19:31
jeblairnibalizer: patch per node to avoid conflicts and make it more reviewable would be best i think19:31
jeblairthis is going to cause reviewer eye strain, so we should be nice :)19:32
nibalizerjeblair: okay, i agree, just didn't want to flood the review queue unneccesarily19:32
anteaya+1 for reviewable19:32
asselinpuppet-openstackci should be approved after today's tc meeting, then should be able to start submitting patches to that19:32
jeblairasselin: ++19:32
anteayanibalizer: it is flooded19:32
nibalizeryolanda: i want to land 162830 first but then yea spinning management of pupepet files/master/service out into a module is a great idea19:32
yolandai'm ok to take it as it's part of my efforts downstream as well19:33
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jeblairyolanda: i'm not sure i'm following your suggestion19:33
yolandajeblair, so basically, isolate the part of the template about "break this into openstack_project::puppet" into an independent module19:33
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yolandaas it's adding logic, that shouldn't be on system-config19:34
nibalizerif cores could please review 162830 that would be great, because the longer it lives unmerged the more rebasing everyone will have to do when it lands19:34
jeblairoh i see19:34
jeblairit's the bit that manages how we install+manage puppet itself19:34
nibalizerI am +1 on yolandas plan19:34
jeblairyeah, that sounds good to me19:35
yolandajeblair, nibalizer, so if you are ok, i can propose a project for it and take ownership, i was planning to do it anyway downstream , so better if that's an upstream effort19:35
mordredI am a fan of that being more standalone19:35
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jeblairso, um, would the module name be "puppet-puppet" ? :)19:35
nibalizeryolanda: sure, also note that there are a few modules floating around github/forge that do exactly this -> manage puppet master/client configs so we could evaluate some of those if we wanted19:35
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yolandanibalizer, sure, i can take a look at them19:36
nibalizeri dont have any links handy19:36
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nibalizerjeblair: probably19:36
yolandaif they are ok for us we could reuse19:36
jeblair#action yolanda investigate existing or creating a new puppet-puppet module19:36
nibalizerjeblair: i actually want to name my next puppet-puppet module 'diphosphorous'19:36
anteayanibalizer: creative19:36
nibalizeranyways thats all I got19:36
jeblairnibalizer: pp.  kk.19:37
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Askbot migration)19:37
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Askbot migration) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:37
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:askbot-site,n,z19:37
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jeblairfungi: i think you spun up a server, yeah?19:38
fungithe test server is running with a data import from the 15th19:38
fungii've vetted and updated the migration instructions19:38
fungipreliminary testing with the new server suggest it's working fine, but mrmartin (who said he's unavailable for today's meeting) wants to put it through it's paces for a couple weeks before we schedule any maintenance to swap them19:39
jeblairokay, so we're waiting on an okay from him before we proceed19:39
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fungiand looks like the instructions just got approved19:39
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/16069319:39
fungifor the curious19:39
jeblair#info replacement server is available for testing; waiting on okay from mrmartin to proceed19:40
jeblair#action mrmartin test new ask server and advise on when to proceed with migration19:40
jeblairfungi: thanks!19:40
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Upgrading Gerrit)19:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Upgrading Gerrit) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:40
jeblair#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:gerrit-upgrade,n,z19:40
jeblairso i think we scheduled the server/OS move for this weekend?19:41
anteayaMarch 2119:41
jeblairis that correct?19:41
fungithat is this weekend, yes19:41
fungisaturday in fact19:41
anteayadid we say a time?19:41
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zaroi just found a bug that needs a fix.  #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/165145/19:41
fungiunless there was a follow-up announcement i missed while vacationing, i think we have not set a time yet19:42
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jeblairso let's do that now19:42
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fungiso should probably give the -dev ml a heads up about the time as usual, but also anyone we already notified about the ip address change19:42
zaromorning would be better for me19:42
anteayahere is the post: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056508.html19:43
jeblairhow about 1500 utc?19:43
pleia2thanks anteaya19:43
fungii'm cool with pdt morning (which will be edt ~lunchtime or early afternoon for me)19:43
fungi1500utc wfm19:43
anteayaanytime that works for west coast folks19:43
zaroyep, wfm19:44
jeblairwho's going to be around for this?19:44
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jeblairso we have 3 roots19:45
anteayaclarkb sounded like he would be around too19:45
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anteayalast time we talked about it19:45
* fungi for sure19:45
jeblaircool, i think we have more than enough then19:45
mordred(sorry, I'm free)19:45
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jeblairand everyone is okay with 150019:45
fungiyeah, we have way more people than we need on hand for it, so we're set19:45
jeblair#agreed maintenance starts at 1500 utc march 2119:46
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jeblairi'll send an announcement19:46
anteayaon the topic of dates19:46
zaroagain, i think that change i linked early should be in before trusty upgrade.19:46
jeblair#action jeblair send follow up announcement with time19:46
anteayathe agenda says the gerrit upgrade is April 10 but last meeting we agreed to May 919:47
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anteayaAGREED: Gerrit 2.9 upgrade Saturday May 9, 2015  (jeblair, 19:49:54)19:47
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jeblairzaro: thanks -- please keep an eye on that and make sure it merges before saturday :)19:47
jeblairzaro: any other changes that need to happen before then?19:47
jeblairanteaya: yes, i'm bad about updating the agenda.  may 9 is really it; the date should just be removed from the agenda19:48
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anteayajeblair: ah okay, just wanted to make sure we were clear19:48
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jeblairanteaya: thanks19:48
anteayathank you19:48
jeblairzaro: anything else?  i figure next week we can make sure we have all the changes we need for the gerrit upgrade lined up.19:49
zaronope, ready to go.19:49
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jeblair#topic IRC policy19:49
*** openstack changes topic to "IRC policy (Meeting topic: infra)"19:49
jeblairsorry, i forgot to add this to the agenda19:49
jeblairbut really quickly, the irc policy governance change merged19:49
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jeblairso now we should make sure all channels are logged19:50
fungiso we need to add a lot more channels to eavesdrop19:50
jeblairyeah, so two things about that:19:50
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anteayado we have a canonical list of channels?19:50
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jeblair1) we should mass-add a bunch in one go19:50
jeblair2) i should write up a spec for how to refactor our irc stuff to make this less insane19:51
jeblairi will try to do that by next week19:51
fungiyep, avoid disrupting meetings by having lots of little additions19:51
fungidoes the resolution say how we identify what constitutes an official project channel?19:51
pleia2I think we also need to check foundership on all the channels too19:51
nibalizerjeblair: ++ move the eavesdrop stuff to project-confg ?19:51
jeblairit's been a back-burner item for me for a while, but i think this increases the priority19:51
SpamapSInsane Relay Chat19:51
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jeblairnibalizer: yeah, that's part of the problem that needs solving19:51
fungiSpamapS: i think you misspelled "inane"19:51
jeblairso i wrote the policy to say "openstack related channels"19:52
jeblairi interpret that to mean any channel we officially do anything in19:52
ttxI think as long as a channel is mostly about an openstack project, it qualifies19:52
anteaya#rdo channels?19:52
ttxlike #openstack-$PROJECT19:52
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ttxRDO is not an openstack project team, it's a distro team19:53
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jeblairso i further think that means "anything in accessbot should be logged, and we should do nothing in any channel without it being in accessbot"19:53
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anteayait came up19:53
ttxwhen I say "openstack project" I mean openstack project team in the governance sense19:53
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mordredttx: #rdo would like to participate in our bots19:53
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jeblairif it's not an openstack-related channel, then we shouldn't be in it19:53
mordredttx: there is consternation as to whether or not that should be allowed19:53
ttxmordred: freeriders!19:53
anteayame too but someone wants bots in #rdo-puppet19:53
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fungiyeah, they want gerritbot announcing changes for stuff in #rdo19:53
jeblairi don't know whether "#rdo-puppet" is an openstack-related channel19:54
rbowenIt is.19:54
ttxdo we have bots in stackforge channels ?19:54
fungiwe do19:54
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jeblairttx: yes; stackforge projects are related to openstack19:54
rbowenIt's for discussion of the puppet modules around the RDO distribution.19:54
ttxI would consider those external to the openstack policy19:54
mordredwell, rdo is a disto of openstack - they're everybit as much a part of our community as the folks working on vmware or hyperv drivers19:54
jeblairttx: the TC created stackforge19:54
rbowenIt's a community project, with participation from multiple organizations - it's not *just* a redhat project. It's part of the OpenStack community, imo19:55
ttxsure, my point is that with biugtent we have a definition of what is an openstack thing and what is not19:55
jeblairttx: yes, but we're not fully there yet19:55
jeblairttx: it would be premature to cut off stackforge from that considering that we have not asked stackforge projects to move yet19:55
ttxseems simpler to enforce IRC policy to "openstack projects" since we have a definition for that19:55
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mordredttx: I dont' see what that gets us though19:56
ttxnot saying we should deny bots to friends19:56
mordredoh - wait19:56
mordredI may understand what your'e saying19:56
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SpamapSThis kind of sounds like something where the TC should be asked for more guidance?19:56
anteayaany chance we can come back to this discussion? I'd like folks to at least look at suggested scalable election tools19:56
mordredyou're saying only _Force_ appying the policy to openstack projects19:56
mordrednot that yo uthink we should exclude people who are not openstack projects19:56
ttxIf #rdo-* doesn't want stuff logged, I think we should accept that (not that they are asking that)19:56
russellbmordred: +119:56
mordredttx: ++19:56
ttxmordred: exactly19:56
mordredanteaya: ooh, scalable election tools?19:57
anteayaI'm trying19:57
* mordred wants to know about those19:57
pleia2there's an etherpad!19:57
jeblairi don't think our bots belong in those channels then19:57
anteayawe haven't changed topics19:57
jeblairi think our irc policy sholud be consistent19:57
anteayajeblair: ++19:57
ttxjeblair: you could say "bots only go to channels that follow IRC policy", I guess.19:57
jeblairand i intentiolly wrote the resolution to say openstack-related channnels to include stackforge projects19:58
jeblairbecause i think they generally want to be part of this community19:58
ttxjeblair: those projects did not submit to TC oversight, so you can't force them to anything. I guess you can force them in exchange for bot service19:58
tristanCAbout elections tools, the idea to get candidacy as a change, and confirmation as approval from election officials sounds very cool19:58
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anteayatristanC: we haven't changed topics19:58
jeblairttx: correct, we can make it a condition of bot service19:58
mordredjeblair: ++19:59
ttxjeblair: that works for me19:59
rbowenttx: We don't mind having #rdo and/or #rdo-puppet logged. Could be useful.19:59
mordredand I think that's fair19:59
SpamapSbut we're about to change meetings....19:59
rbowenSo, whichever way that goes is fine.19:59
fungiyeah, if we treat all channels equally regardless of official status, then we can have one canonical list of channels we configure our bots to join19:59
ttxrbowen: I think #rdo* is the wrong example :)19:59
SpamapSto the very meeting where this topic belongs. ;)19:59
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mordredSpamapS: bah - it'll be a year before we get to this topic in the next meeting19:59
jeblairtristanC: I'm sorry we didn't get to that topic.  i did not expect this to be controversial.19:59
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SpamapSmordred: status quo ftw19:59
jeblairthanks all20:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 17 20:00:14 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-03-17-19.01.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-03-17-19.01.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-03-17-19.01.log.html20:00
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ttxrussellb, jgriffith, annegentle, mikal, mordred, devananda, vishy, markmcclain, jeblair, jaypipes, sdague, dhellmann : around ?20:00
jeblairttx: yes20:00
ttxI think annegentle and jaypipes won't be with us20:00
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ttxwe have quorum20:01
ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 17 20:01:04 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
ttxOur agenda for today:20:01
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:01
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ttx#topic (Final) Final rubberstamping of "Cross-Project spec to eliminate SQL Schema Downgrades"20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "(Final) Final rubberstamping of "Cross-Project spec to eliminate SQL Schema Downgrades" (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152337/20:01
ttxThat was pending on the Ops Meetup and we got a clear go-ahead there20:01
ttxSo unless someone violently opposes now, I'll consider there is consensus on this one and final-approve it now20:02
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sdague+1 for final approve20:02
mordredttx: what if I'm just violent?20:02
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ttxmordred: you do have a history of violence20:02
russellbglad this is a virtual meeting then20:03
* dhellmann sits back from the screen20:03
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ttxlast 10 seconds to register your +2 if you want it in20:03
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ttx#topic Tags20:03
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ttx* Definition of the release:* tags (https://review.openstack.org/157322)20:03
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ttxLooks like there is no opposition anymore on those, so it would be great if we could gather some approvals and move on20:03
ttxdhellmann and devananda +1ed an earlier version of the proposal20:04
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devanandattx: you removed the deprecation section?20:04
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ttxdevananda: yes, since there were no deprecation rules20:04
ttxand my wording there was confusing anne20:05
* devananda reapplies +120:05
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* dhellmann ditto20:05
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ttxWhile you vote, moving on to next topic20:05
ttx* Next WIP tags (http://ttx.re/facets-of-the-integrated-release.html) (https://review.openstack.org/163851) (https://review.openstack.org/163236)20:05
ttxThere are several other tags being worked on20:05
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ttxrussellb works on a "team:diverse-affiliation" tag at https://review.openstack.org/16385120:06
ttxrussellb: how is that going ?20:06
russellbfine, the feedback so far is positive, but just from a few folks20:06
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russellbthere's a few things to integrate, including your suggestion of adding a core reviewer diversity requirement20:06
ttxneed more reviews before proposing final patchset ?20:06
devanandarussellb: core diversity ++20:07
sdaguerussellb: have you considered categorizing git trees instead of program groups?20:07
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russellbsdague: that was another thing ttx brought up20:07
ttxsdague: I can see value in both approaches20:07
russellbsince tags apply to projects ... i was proposing the tag is based on the overall diversity of the repos the team looks after20:07
jeblairhas anyone run the heuristic on existing key projects?20:07
ttxjeblair: it's in the patch iirc20:08
jgriffithrussellb: that seems valid to me20:08
russellbjeblair: i did a pass in the existing proposal, yeah20:08
russellbnot using proposed changes (like core team)20:08
russellbi scripted it after doing it manually once, heh20:08
jgriffithrussellb: I like it by the way, even moreso with the core add20:08
jeblairhah, it was _just_ below the point to which i had scrolled, sorry.20:08
devanandaspeaking for ironic, we have several repos in the project that have very different contributor diversity than the main server tree, or the group taken as a whole20:08
ttxbut then it's also about fragility, and a repo which has just one company looking after it is more brittle20:08
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russellbttx: but a less active repo would be easier to save20:08
jgriffithttx: I'm mixed on what i think the tag "means" but regardless20:09
russellbso overall diversity a better indication of overall health, i think20:09
ttxIf you take a project team like iNfra, projects under it have a very different story20:09
russellbttx: yes, that's a good counter example20:09
russellbnot sure that's the case for any other team20:09
jgriffithrussellb: I don't know if I'd agree, kinda think that should be left to other stats20:09
devanandaI would suspect that oslo also has less diversity within some of the individual libraries20:09
sdaguettx: right, echoing a thing vishy said previously, oslo.messaging is a good instance of something which is very important but seems to not have many folks engaged on it, and I think that gets hidden if we lump all of oslo together20:09
russellbjgriffith: not embedding that into the tag definition20:09
dhellmannrussellb: this is an example of a tag that looks useful, but is so easy to find from stackalytics that I wonder if we actually need to keep track of it manually?20:09
russellbdhellmann: we could expand that to abandoning this entire catalog20:10
dhellmannrussellb: now you're talking20:10
ttxdhellmann: it's not that easy to find. If you combine commits/contributors/core stats20:10
russellbeither there's value in making it easier to figure all this out20:10
russellbor not20:10
russellbi think there is20:10
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zanebI think projects themselves are capable of handling non-diversity issues on their own repos (in the worst case by voting them off the island)20:10
russellbif people want to abandon the whole catalog, then i would question whether the proposed governance change is the right direction at all20:10
russellbbut anyway ...20:11
ttxdhellmann: but then I expect some tags to be generated automatically (something like the requirements bot)20:11
devanandarussellb: it's also prone to rapid fluctuations which may not reflect the project's usefulness, particularly in smaller trees20:11
dhellmannrussellb: so let's build a page that pulls the data live, and let that be the info we show. Why track it manually?20:11
fungittx: russellb: keep in mind that all the openstack-infra projects' core groups have infra-core included in them20:11
fungiwhich brings back the diversity20:11
zanebso it makes more sense to me for the TC to be looking at projects as a whole20:11
russellbdhellmann: in the proposal i said it should be automated20:11
ttxfungi: I know some projects that this won't save20:11
dhellmannrussellb: ok, I haven't hit the bottom yet, sorry20:11
devanandarussellb: I think diversity of core team is a useful tag, and diversity of reviews and/or contribution to a project group overall is also useful20:11
russellbdevananda: separate?20:11
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devanandarussellb: as a contributor, the "core diversity" tells me how likely my contributions are to be respected // or inversely if t's just one company running the show20:12
ttxNow that I've spiked your interest, I think the discussion should move to the review20:12
jeblairrussellb, dhellmann: i think it is important to _surface_ this information; i agree with dhellman that it seems we are moving information from one system of record to another.20:12
devanandarussellb: as an operator, it tells me how likely this project is to die if one company pulls out20:12
ttxsince we have a lot of ground to cover in meeting today20:12
dhellmannjeblair: you said it better than I did20:12
mordredand as a consumer, how likely I'm going to be in trouble if obe company makes a shift in intent20:12
russellbttx: sounds good20:12
devanandarussellb: but breaking down to individual git trees is far less useful to me in either csae20:12
sdaguedevananda: more than the review / contrib stats?20:12
mordreddevananda: yeah20:12
* mordred lets devananda speak more20:12
ttxplease continue discussion on the review20:12
lifelessdevananda: it doesn't really... it just gives a data point20:12
sdaguethe actually core team membership seems less relevant to me than core team actions20:12
devanandawhile I can get that info from the various authoritative sources if i really want, eg. gerrit or git log20:13
ttxdevenanda works on role tags, which are a bit of an opinionated taxonomy20:13
ttxthat said from the feedback at the Ops Meetup, those are badly needed20:13
devanandaI do think having documentation of it is helpful toour downstream consumers20:13
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ttxThere is room for other tags to be worked on20:13
devanandasdague: also, that. glance is a good example ...20:13
ttxFor those who want to help, I described the various facets of the integrated-release comboconcept that we might want to independently describe as tags at20:13
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ttx#link http://ttx.re/facets-of-the-integrated-release.html20:13
mordredI think what the TC woudl be vetting in this case is that the automated tag does reflect the data it says it reflects, yeah?20:13
russellbi'm in favor of opinionated tags personally :)20:13
ttx- Release model is now covered20:13
mordredrussellb: ++20:13
ttx- Co-gating is likely to emerge from sdague's work at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150653/20:13
russellbbeing opinionated is where we can actually add value20:14
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devanandattx: I was hoping to get back to that proposal more last week, but have been consumed by kilo-3 // feature freeze20:14
ttx- Supported-by should be proposed by all horizontal teams, to clarify what they actually support (defaults to "all")20:14
russellbif we're not opinionated *at all*, i don't know what our point of existence is anymore20:14
ttxrussellb: ++20:14
devanandarussellb: ++20:14
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ttx- Stability should probably be expressed as opt-in feature/API deprecation contracts, I plan to work on that unless someone beats me to it20:14
dhellmannrussellb: ++20:14
ttx- For maturity, we now have an ops workgroup planning to work on that20:14
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ttxSo feel free to help in any of those areas20:14
* russellb is very happy to see ++ on that, wasn't sure honestly ...20:14
sparkycollierexistentialist russellb20:15
russellbttx: good write-up20:15
ttxrussellb: but then jay is not around20:15
* mordred hands russellb a fluffy llama20:15
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devanandaif anyone wants to take a stab at adding more role / usecase tags on top of my proposal, I wont object. otherwise, I will try to get to it in the next week20:15
ttxWhich leads us to the next question20:15
ttx* Moving tags to a separate project-catalog repository20:15
ttxOnce we have bootstrapped this framework, I think it should move to its own repository and be maintained by a specific team of people20:15
mikalWhat is the value in that?20:16
russellbi'm torn on this20:16
ttxA team interested in documenting project attributes20:16
ttxBecause this is closer to documentation/reporting than to governance20:16
mikalIsn't that the TC?20:16
russellbpartly because having it all together is convenient20:16
russellband also because of the point i just made about being opinionated20:16
russellband the importance of still being opinionated at times20:16
russellbit's not just a trivial task to pass off20:16
mikalI agree20:16
russellbif it is, again, our value is pretty minimal20:16
ttxwell, that's about "stepping out of the way" I guess, and focusing on more critical tasks20:16
dhellmannmost of the tags proposed so far are objective enough that there's no "opinion" involved20:16
mikalBut also, its super important, so we should be shy about delegating it20:16
dhellmannwe should keep things like whether we consider a project official, and whether we want the board to let them use the trademark. The rest of this is just "tell me what openstack is" documentation.20:17
devanandai did a bunch of thinking about this when I wrote up the roles / use cases tags ...20:17
mikalttx: there's nothing stopping a community member from proposing a tag now...20:17
russellbit kind of comes back to, what tags actually exist20:17
mikalttx: so how are we "in the way" at the moment?20:17
jbrycettx: i would think that even if the tc coordinates the efforts, they can still allow tags and input from other groups like ops/user committtee20:17
ttxmikal: I fear we spend all of our time rubberstamping stuff20:17
devanandaI think by defining the set of tags ,what the criteria are, we're creating a policy20:17
devanandathat's our governance20:17
dhellmanndevananda: so we govern through taxonomy? :-(20:18
jeblairso maybe we should keep it in governance until we find we're just rubberstamping all the time and deal with it then20:18
ttxwe'll spend a lot of time approving tag changes20:18
devanandasome of the tags are just informational, and could be delegated to automation20:18
ttxjeblair: good point20:18
devanandasome will be opt-in, and the PTLs can self apply them20:18
jeblairright now at least, i think the discussion around them is still useful20:18
devanandaand some may well be set by other teams (like docs-supported, required-by-nova, or what ever)20:18
sdagueyeh, I'm fine with keeping them in tree for now. Later migration can always be contemplated20:18
russellbcould differentiate between tags that are obvious and don't need a full vote, vs. ones that are opinionated and need actual discussion and vote20:18
ttxI heard some feedback that nobody should touch tags because it's a TC thing20:18
dhellmannjeblair: we have several cross project specs that this group needs to approve. We're spending way way more time on tags than those technical issues.20:19
devanandathe TC is still the arbiter if three's a disagreement, but we dont need to apply every single tag with a majority vote20:19
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ttxso we need to better communicate how open the process is20:19
anteayathere are some decisions asked of project-config reviewers that belong in the tc20:19
anteayaas a project-config reviewer I am for keeping these decisions with the tc, re: tags20:19
jeblairdhellmann: yeah, i could see us getting there; i'm just not sure we're there yet20:19
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ttxIt may be too early to spin it off20:19
russellbwe haven't approved any tags yet :)20:19
ttxrussellb: I can fix that now20:20
russellbso yeah, i think revisiting in a few months would be good20:20
mordredrussellb: yup. we're approving too many of them20:20
mordredrussellb: :)20:20
devanandattx: in addition to better communication, I think we need to accept that there is a 6 to 12 month communication lag20:20
russellbmordred: not sure what you mean20:20
mordredrussellb: me either- I was going for a droll joke, but it did not work20:20
russellbmordred: ok!20:20
dhellmannmaybe when we're together in person someone will be able to explain why we're so excited about tags. They still feel like mostly a waste of this group's time.20:20
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dhellmannbut I'll stop harping on it, I guess20:21
devanandattx: short of a keynote at the summit (or something similarly monumental) it's going to take a LONG TIME for these sorts of changes to trickle down to all the operators, driver contributors, etc20:21
russellband *that* is why i'm hesitant to approve projects20:21
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russellbwe disagree on such fundamental things about this governance change20:21
devanandattx: so the kind of participation that I think we need for this to work will not happen overnight20:21
russellbthat i'm not convinced anymore we're in the right direction at all20:21
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jbrycedevananda: come to day 2 in vancouver = )20:21
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devanandajbryce: ;)20:21
mordredrussellb: I thnk the two are completely orthogonal - but that might be derailing this20:21
ttxOK, let's keep it in governance for the time being20:22
mikalrussellb: so do we need a plan to get in sync again? If so, what is it?20:22
jbryceand day 1 actually as well. but we have to have something understandable to present20:22
russellbmikal: i don't know ... maybe we should all write a bunch of blog posts :-p20:22
mikalrussellb: sigh20:22
ttxNOOOO not again20:22
devanandarussellb: that's definitely the right thing ....20:22
russellbttx just wrote one!20:23
mordredI think maybe big tent was the wrong choice, and it should have been big yurt20:23
devanandaso, really, perhaps an etherpad where we just get a sense of who agrees/disagrees on what20:23
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lifelesscommunication is important... not sure that a mass of blog posts is that20:23
jbryceis there a single authoritative document that explains what the new structure is?20:23
ttxdevananda: I'm tryin g to keep tabs on that20:23
sparkycollier+1 to big yurt20:23
russellblifeless: right, i was mostly kidding20:23
devanandathen we set up some higher bandwidth disucssions to facilitate sorting that out20:23
ttxjbryce: yes20:23
russellbwe got some negative feedback about high bandwidth sessions we had on this before20:24
ttxdevananda: the spin-off disucssion was triggered with several discussions I had with dhellmann20:24
anteayadevananda: I think the question is what higher bandwidth20:24
devanandawe did some video calls at the beginning of the big tent discussions20:24
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russellbor i did anyway20:24
lifelessrussellb: clique concerns?20:24
devanandarussellb: I'm aware of that, and I can't for the life of me understand why20:24
russellband the fact that they weren't open, just etherpad notes20:24
dhellmannit's a bit sparse, but here's a skeleton "product guide" repo I set up while talking with ttx about spinning this stuff out: https://github.com/dhellmann/openstack-product-catalog/tree/master/doc/source20:24
devanandaI mean, people talk to each other. some times the medium gets in the way of actually sharing understanding and we need to use a different medium20:25
anteayathe problem is we are so afraid of being accused of not open we can't get teh time to talk and understand each other20:25
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dhellmannrussellb: we might have to live with people seeing documentation after the fact if we want to resolve some of these bigger questions20:25
mikalCould we lock ourselves in a room before the summit and talk it through?20:25
dhellmannmikal: ++20:25
anteayathere is so much noise we can't hear each other, or even ourselves20:25
mikalThe morning before the board meeting perhaps?20:25
devanandaif I have to fly somewhere to talk with someone in person, because we just can't sort it out on the phone .... I mean, that's lame, but I do it.20:25
russellbi don't want to wait until summit20:25
jbrycettx: thanks. i’ve actually followed these changes and that is another link i hadn’t seen yet. i think that’s really a big piece of the confusion out there is people have gotten bits and pieces from a mailing list thread here, an irc log there, a blog post on the other side20:25
russellbthat's such a bad habit in openstack, heh20:25
devanandaI think we can't wait until the summit, frankly20:25
devanandabecause we need clear signalling (eg, to jbryce ) before then20:26
ttxjbryce: the blog posts were all referencing the reference document (which was the spec)20:26
Rockygjbryce:  ++20:26
ttxyou should click links more :)20:26
Rockygtfm links20:27
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ttxSo, about syncing... The thing is, every time I speak with someone supposedly disagreeing, they are actually not disagreeing20:27
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ttxso it's more unfamiliarity than disagreement20:27
mikalttx: that's an indicator we need to talk more I think20:27
mordredI agree with that20:27
mordredI have had the same experience20:27
ttxmikal: I think you should move to Europe20:27
devanandadhellmann: when we talked about a week ago, IIRC the only thing you disagreed on was where the tags are hosted, which boiled down to whether or not the TC should be governing them20:28
devanandaor s/governing/required to vote on/20:28
russellbi also worry that if we have a hard time understanding things among each other, good luck to the rest of the world20:28
RockygDon't talk.  Post the doc on the front webpage of os.org20:28
jbrycerussellb: exactly20:28
mordredRockyg: we don't control that20:28
zanebdevananda: what has actually changed? there were a bunch of projects (including user-facing ReST APIs) that weren't incubated of integrated in the openstack/ namespace before, and soon there'll be a few more...20:28
dhellmanndevananda: so far, 99% of the tags I have seen proposed are characteristics I would expect a product documentation team to be using to describe products. We're not a product documentation team.20:28
Rockygmordred:  if we asked nicely?20:28
dhellmanndevananda: the only 2 tags so far that don't meet that criteria are "is it an official project" and "should it use the trademark"20:29
zaneblikewise, we had a bunch of integrated projects before, and now we have an integrated tag. no change (yet)20:29
russellbdhellmann: i went after low hanging fruit, since it was proposed as a base requirement to start with ...20:29
ttxThe only clear disagreement I heard was Doug thinking we the TC should get out of the product description business20:29
ttxAny other disagreement ?20:29
dhellmannrussellb: right, and I think we all got tied up in the fact that Jay's blog post talked about tags and governance changes, but I don't think they're actually related at all20:29
anteayaRockyg: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-org20:29
russellbdhellmann: i think some think it's related and others don't20:29
Rockyganteaya:  Thanks;-)20:29
russellbdepends if you think tags are purely objective, or whether they're a means of providing more detailed opinions and guidance as well20:30
russellbi think..20:30
ttxdhellmann: and the spec clearly presents them as separate efforts20:30
* russellb tied them together20:30
jbryceRockyg mordred: we have been working on an update plan for openstack.org to cover these changes, but to be honest it’s been hard to even wrap my head around it and get a fully consistent description of it from the people i’ve talked to.20:30
russellbttx: 2 points in the same spec though20:30
ttxWe had a problem and took two efforts to solve it20:30
ttx(expand and focus)20:30
dhellmannrussellb: sure, the guidance stuff is what I mean by product documentation though20:30
dhellmannttx: I think I'm the only one who feels this way, and so I'm just going to shut up and let you get on with the meeting.20:31
russellbdhellmann: i feel like we're elected to be the ones to have opinions on behalf of openstack tech community, and communicate those20:31
ttxyay, no more disagreement, just a bit of confusion.20:31
jgriffithrussellb: I'd agree with that20:31
devanandadhellmann: I'm probably misunderstanding you, because it sounds like you're saying the TC is not responsible for providing guidance about the projects that make up OpenStack...20:31
anteayarussellb: me too20:31
Rockygsounds like a doc sprint is needed to thrash out the two separate efforts, how they interact, and the vision thing, along with the spec.20:31
devanandarussellb: yup20:31
zanebI think tags should be about guiding the project as to what the TC expects of them, rather than a 1-bit replacement for documentation20:31
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devanandazaneb: yes20:32
russellband to me, the tags thing was the new framework we were setting up for us to communicate those opinions20:32
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dhellmanndevananda: You are. We decide what projects are "in" the tent. After that, the entire community is responsible for properly documenting what we're building.20:32
ttxOK everyone, I'd like us to focus back on the agenda20:32
* russellb sits down20:32
dhellmannzaneb: OK, that's not how they're being presented.20:32
devanandaso that's what I meant earlier by we govern through creating tags and delegating the application of tags to the appropriate trusted / responsible parties20:32
ttxand move to the next (related) topic20:32
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jgriffithsigh.. I was going to say something profound20:32
ttxjgriffith: bad timing20:32
* annegentle is here, listening. Nothing profound about docs here.20:32
* russellb takes it to a blog post20:32
jgriffithttx: :)20:32
devanandarussellb: heh20:32
sparkycollier+1 to devananda20:33
ttx+1 to devananda too20:33
* devananda sits down as well, lets ttx continue with agenda20:33
ttx(to end this discussion, I really think we are not very far away, and just need to talk more about it)20:33
ttxfar from each other I mean20:33
ttx#topic New project teams additions20:33
*** openstack changes topic to "New project teams additions (Meeting topic: tc)"20:33
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ttx* Freezing or slowly considering (http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-March/058689.html)20:33
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ttxSo I think it's pretty critical *not* to freeze the process, otherwise we won't make any progress in the next 3 months20:34
ttxLooks like most people on the thread agreed to slowly consider new project team additions, rather than freezing20:34
ttxWe should go slowly enough so that we can refine rules as we go20:34
russellbi think we're making progress for the sake of making progress, even though there's a lot of confusion and potentially disagreement20:34
ttxon the project team addition side ?20:34
ttxwhat disagreement is there there ?20:35
jgriffithrussellb: I'd kind of agree, I don't see what it matters if new projects sit for a few months or not20:35
russellbbut it goes back to different views on what the tag part of the spec means, how important it is, what things are included20:35
* ttx doesn't see any patch proposed to the new-projects-requirements20:35
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* russellb sighs20:35
ttxThat said, it's worth noting that the requirements as stated are base requirements we all agree on20:35
russellbi think we've half implemented our spec is all20:35
jeblairi think evaluating the new additions is helping us see the system at work and understand what works and where we have disagreement.  therefore, i think making slow progress should be our goal for the next little while.20:35
ttxbut we always retain our ability to arbitrarily reject projects -- that is also why we were elected: to make the right call when needed20:36
jbrycerussellb: i agree that there’s some confusion and when i’ve watched the last few tc meetings it seems like different people have a different opinion of what has been agreed to20:36
russellbjbryce: that's my objection, yes20:36
russellbi wish i had a clear way to fix it up20:36
jbrycei also think working through it slowly to bootstrap it could provide concrete examples of what needs to be answered20:36
russellbmaybe a clear date to tidy things up by20:36
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mordredI disagree with delaying project additions20:36
devanandarussellb: "half implemented our spec" << yup, I agree20:37
ttxrussellb: I think the spec is fully implemented. We added criteria for approving projects, and created a framework to describve projects20:37
sdagueI'd agree with jeblair, in bound project consideration is kind of unit tests for whatever we're doing. I'm fine with going slow, but it seems like useful data.20:37
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devanandarussellb: but folks are still looking to us the TC to bless projects, despite some confusion about this whole big tent thing20:37
russellbttx: see, there's disagreement after all :)20:37
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mordredI think the only way we can get past people expecting us to bless projects20:37
mordredis to open the door20:37
mordredand stop blessing projects20:37
devanandaif we add one or two projects, that's going to increase confusion, I think, because it loks like we will have blessed them20:37
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ttxrussellb: the spec was never about "finishing tags"20:37
ttxrussellb: heck, I know. I wrote it20:38
russellbwe can't agree on low hanging fruit, much less things that are actually more useful original bits of information20:38
jeblairi think we should add 1, then 2, then 3, then a lot.20:38
russellb(tags that is)20:38
mordredby applying the criteria very broadly that we have agreed on20:38
ttxIt was about setting criteria for new projects and set up a tag framework20:38
devanandaOTOH if we rip off the bandaid and let in everything that meets our least common denominator,  it's a very clear what we've just done20:38
dhellmannmordred: we are bound by the bylaws to bless projects for trademark use. Do you mean to apply that rule to that level of blessing as well?20:38
jbrycejeblair: yeah i kind of agree20:38
russellbin any case, i'll abstain on new projects, not -120:38
* jogo finds it ironic we are weakening the openstack community software trademark while pushing hard for better commercial trademark usage, defcore20:38
mordreddhellmann: I do not think that letting a project "in" carries any implication about the use of the trademark - that's what defcore is working on20:39
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dhellmannmordred: we are supposed to propose to the defcore committee which projects they consider, though, and so we're still a gatekeeper in that process.20:39
dhellmannwe're just moving the gate20:39
mordreddhellmann: nor do I think it automatically confers in any of the documents I've see a suggestion from us to defcore or the board that we recommend these projects for trademark use20:39
russellbthe "tc approved release"20:39
mordredI believe us "approving" projects has no bearing on that whatsoever20:40
devanandathat said, i would like us to have a tag system in place before we rip off the bandaid.20:40
mordredI do not20:40
dhellmannmordred: I'll have to find it, but I do remember that being our responsibility to suggest which of *all* of the projects should be included in any trademark policy.20:40
russellbis the base they work from, in the updatedd bylaws20:40
ttxOK, let's focus on agenda again -- do we need a vote between freezing and slowly considering ?20:40
mordredI do not want to wait for a tag system for us to implement the system we have already approved20:40
mordredthat is just us being policy wankers20:40
devanandamordred: i do not mean that we should have all the tags IN that system20:40
mikalttx: I think a vote is a good idea20:40
mordredlet's get it done20:40
mordredand do something20:40
russellbi think a tag system is useless without concrete things we've agreed on that fit int he system20:40
mordredfor once20:40
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mordredI mean - we already voted on thnis20:41
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ttxhow does #startvote work again20:41
mordredhow many more times do we need to vote on voting on voting on things20:41
annegentleI'm fine with test and iterate. If that's "slow" then that's okay.20:41
openstackUnable to parse vote topic and options.20:41
zanebdevananda: why do we need a tag system _before_ admitting new projects? new projects would join without the integrated-release tag, so they start at the bottom20:41
jeblairttx: http://ci.openstack.org/irc.html#voting20:41
morganfainbergttx, #startvote <question>? option1,option2,etc20:41
ttx#startvote Freezing or slowly considering ? freezing, slowly, abstain20:41
openstackBegin voting on: Freezing or slowly considering ? Valid vote options are freezing, slowly, abstain.20:41
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.20:41
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ttx#vote slowly20:41
mordred#vote slowly20:41
russellb#vote freezing20:41
mikal#vote slowly20:41
dhellmann#vote slowly20:41
jgriffithCan't we just focus and start with a well defined base20:41
jeblair#vote slowly20:41
sdague#vote slowly20:41
markmcclain#vote slowly20:41
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devananda#vote slowly20:41
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ttx30 more seconds20:42
jgriffith#vote abstain20:42
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devanandattx: you didn't have a rip off the bandaid option :)20:42
* jbryce finds something funny about everyone “voting slowly”20:42
openstackVoted on "Freezing or slowly considering ?" Results are20:42
openstackfreezing (1): russellb20:42
openstackabstain (1): jgriffith20:42
mordredjbryce: :)20:42
openstackslowly (8): ttx, devananda, jeblair, sdague, mikal, mordred, dhellmann, markmcclain20:42
jgriffithjbryce: LOL20:42
ttxOK, let's proceed20:42
ttxI'd like us to spend some of the remaining time in the meeting to discuss the next addition in the pipe:20:42
ttx* Add OpenStackClient project (https://review.openstack.org/161885)20:43
ttxLast week we delayed final consideration of the Magnum addition to March 24 meeting20:43
ttxOpenStackClient is imho "an OpenStack project" and "one of us"20:43
zanebI'd suggest we set an application deadline, consider all projects who apply before the deadline as a batch, and then rip off the bandaid in one go20:43
mordredttx: ++20:43
ttxAnd being "officially part of OpenStack" might give it a nice contributors push20:43
ttxSo I'm +1 on it20:43
devanandattx: +120:43
dhellmannyeah, this project has been around for a while now and although it's small the contributor base is diverse20:43
mordredit's also had part of itself in openstack/ since before any of this system was in place :)20:43
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ttxI think if we disagree on that one, then YES we have a pretty differing view of what we are trtying to achieve here20:44
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annegentleI would love to see a contributor uptick there.20:44
dtroyerannegentle: so would I20:45
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annegentledtroyer: :)20:45
stevemardtroyer, me too20:45
* jogo wonders how moving OSC from openstack namespace to openstack namespace would help with contributors20:45
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dtroyerI don't expect it will20:45
stevemarjogo, we can hope20:45
ttxit's already there20:45
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anteayajogo: they get in projects.yaml in governance, right now contributions to the repo doen't get ptl votes20:45
dtroyerproof that namespace alone isn't magic20:45
annegentleit's a good iterative test20:46
ttxjogo: some companies only contribute to "openstack project"20:46
ttxI could name names but I won't20:46
devanandattx: and that continues to make me very, very sad20:46
jogottx: its really hard to tell that it isn't part of 'openstack project' now ...20:46
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jogobit that is neither here nor there20:46
sdaguejogo: you haven't met enough lawyers20:47
ttxjogo: once example of such companies has plenty of lawyers20:47
ttxbut I won't name names.20:47
anteayaI want that on a shirt20:47
zanebttx: that's actually not entirely unreasonable, because it assures them that everyone involved has an incentive not to mess with the governance in ways that would get it kicked out by the TC20:47
annegentleto me it's more interesting to see if jumping to user inclusion instead of contributor dev inclusion does anything20:47
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ttxAnyone opposing OpenStackClient ? I think that's a good one to start with, level 1 difficulty20:47
jgriffithannegentle: I like the user inclusion slant20:48
ttxannegentle: frankly, I care more about no longer considering them second-class20:48
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ttxSilence... does that mean we should just vote on that one ?20:49
mordredttx: it's got 9 yes votes20:49
ttxdamn, things move while I talk20:49
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ttx10 last seconds to register your vote20:49
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ttxok, approving now20:50
* ttx is kind of surpised nobody asks to wait one more week20:50
jgriffithttx: you shouldn't tempt fate like that20:51
ttxsicne we are so in disagreement and all20:51
ttxbah, approved20:51
dtroyerthank you everyone20:51
ttxdtroyer: You win the first big-tent addition award20:51
* mordred hands dtroyer a fluffy bunny20:51
lifelessyurt please20:51
ttx#topic Other governance changes20:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)"20:51
ttx* Add the new developer-reference repo to the TC list (https://review.openstack.org/161451)20:52
ttxThis is about where to put developer guidelines -- in openstack-specs or in a separate repo20:52
ttxI don't really care that much about a location, we just need to setlle on one20:52
dhellmannlast week there was enough agreement that we didn't want to do this, that I'll probably abandon the proposal and tell the cross-project team we want them to put policies in the existing specs repo20:52
dhellmannunless someone wants to argue in favor of a separate repo?20:53
ttxlooks like there is no consensus on moving, so maybe let's just keep it where it is20:53
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ttxdhellmann: feel free to abandon patch is nobody argues20:53
ttxSkipping https://review.openstack.org/#/c/162789/ since it was marked WIP20:53
ttx* Add proposal to rename core teams as ? (https://review.openstack.org/163660)20:53
ttxThis was initially about renaming core teams to "maintainer teams", and is now evolving to renaming them to "core reviewers teams"20:54
ttxWhich is one of the names we used for those teams already20:54
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ttxand imho nicely insists on the duty rather than the caste aspect20:54
mikaljogo says he is holding off there20:54
jogomikal: it should say I am holding off waiting for more feedback20:54
ttxmikal: holding on the "maintainer" proposal, likely switching to "core reviewers team"20:54
jogomikal: before I rev the patch20:54
mikalAhhh, I see20:54
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ttxwelcoming reviews20:54
ttxso please voice your opinion there so that jogo knows where to go20:55
mikalDo we really think that change will work?20:55
mikalPeople will keep calling them core teams20:55
mikalCause humans20:55
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russellband have exclusive parties?  :)20:55
ttxmikal: at least we can point them to somewhere were we say they how they should be called... but yeah, no miracle expected20:55
jogomikal: that is why I wanted maintainers I think it better reflects what we actually do20:55
ttxrussell_h: low kick, 1 point20:55
ttxrussellb: ^20:56
russellb+1 point or -1 point20:56
devanandaso i'm -1 on maintainers because it denotes maintenance, and these teams are not maintaining - they're predominantly filled with active developers20:56
mikalMy point being, a subtle change wont work20:56
mikalPeople will ignore it20:56
jogomaintainers just like the kernel has maintainers etc.20:56
mikalThe name needs to be radically different if you want it to stick20:56
ttxmikal: alternate wording welcome, I think20:56
anteayawhat problem is this solving?20:56
jogodevananda: but the team isn't a team of developers20:56
jogowe are there to review and maintain20:56
devanandaanteaya: i am wondering the same thing ...20:56
mikal"Future defendants"20:57
devanandajogo: how many folks on these teams actively contribute back fixes to stable branches?20:57
jogoanteaya: making non core feel second class20:57
anteayathey will just pick other words20:57
jogodevananda: stable maint != maintaining master20:57
anteayait is because they don't feel empowered by their managers to do what they want20:57
devanandajogo: no, but using the same word will make that confusing20:57
ttxthat's the well-accepted meaning of "maintenance" though20:57
anteayathat is the problem20:57
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anteayawording changes nothing20:57
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jogottx: so is the other case20:57
mordreddevananda: at the ops summit, it was requested by the operators taht we relax the "must be in master first" requirement for stable branches, btw20:58
ttxOK, we need to move on, please contribute tothe review if you care20:58
jogoanteaya: so my secret plan, is to make it easier to introduce subsystem maintiners20:58
ttx#topic Housekeeping20:58
jogolike other projects have20:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Housekeeping (Meeting topic: tc)"20:58
ttx* Publish the extra ATCs for projects (https://review.openstack.org/161465)20:58
russellbjogo: +100 :)20:58
devanandajogo: changing a name isn't going to suddenly change the culture, especially when it isn't actually changing the power dynamic between folks with +2 powers and folks without it20:58
jeblairjogo: so how about a proposal to do that instead? :)20:58
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ttxannegentle: would you remove your -1 on that one ?20:58
russellbjogo: though i think tooling/workflow is the biggest hurdly, though culture a big part too20:58
asalkelddevananda: +120:58
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devanandajogo: but I'm +100 on delegating merge powers on subsystems to trusted subteams20:58
ttxyour question was answered, not sure if that's satisfying though20:58
jogojeblair: I thought there would be a lot more pushback to that, but I am happy to do that instead20:58
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fungii'm excited about https://review.openstack.org/161465 because it hopefully means the format of that file will stabilize some20:59
russellbjogo: i'm not sure we need TC involved in that20:59
russellbi'd rather see a project just go do it20:59
russellbhint hint nova!  :)20:59
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devanandajogo: fwiw, Ironic already has subsystem maintaner teams20:59
russellbor any project really, i don't care20:59
russellbsomeone needs to prove it out20:59
russellbdevananda: orly!20:59
devanandajogo: see ironic-python-agent, ironic-discoverd, pyghmi, ....20:59
ttxHmm, topic please20:59
jeblairjogo, russellb: i don't think tooling is a blocker20:59
mordredinfra has had subsystem teams for a while20:59
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russellbwithout having to split into repos20:59
jogojeblair: I agree!20:59
devanandarussellb: nope! separate repos20:59
russellbi'd love to see it done without splitting20:59
sdagueright, the separate repo thing is the issue20:59
ttxOne minute left, can we switch to last topic please21:00
* russellb sits down at ttx's request21:00
devanandawe now also have some drivers maintaining the majority of their code out of tree // on stack forge with their own teams21:00
mordredsure- but that's not a TC thing21:00
russellbmordred: agree21:00
jogoanyway I will revise this21:00
lifelesswe could trust folk...21:00
ttxargue on the review, please21:00
ttxThe last 4 are repo housekeeping and have PTL+1, so will approve all unless someone objects now:21:00
ttx* Add the bindep repo to Infrastructure Project (https://review.openstack.org/161771)21:00
ttx* Add devstack-plugin-cookiecutter to QA (https://review.openstack.org/161886)21:00
ttx* Add Gnocchi repository to Ceilometer (https://review.openstack.org/162145)21:00
ttx* Add new project puppet-openstackci to infra (https://review.openstack.org/163246)21:00
devanandattx: ++ to you just doing the house keeping things :)21:00
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sdaguedevananda: ++21:00
ttxi'll approve https://review.openstack.org/161465 when annegentle removes her -121:00
mordredttx: ++21:00
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ttx#topic Open discussion21:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"21:00
ttxI guess that topic started around :2521:01
ttxso it's safe to close21:01
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ttxunless someone has an express announcement21:01
russellbi still love you all, even if we disagree (or i'm confused, or whatever) :)21:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
jeblairrussellb: ++21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 17 21:01:36 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-03-17-20.01.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-03-17-20.01.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-03-17-20.01.log.html21:01
ttxThat will be the final words21:01
ttxthanks everyone (still)21:01
russellbthanks, ttx21:01
ttxOh my, awhat is there ? Another meeting!21:02
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ttxcourtesy PTL ping: dhellmann, morganfainberg, notmyname, eglynn, nikhil_k, thingee, asalkeld, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov, mikal: around ?21:02
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* fungi waves from his little corner21:02
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ttxThe good news is.. it should be a very short one21:02
* morganfainberg looks at the clock... oh it is that time21:02
ttx#startmeeting crossproject21:02
devanandattx: i continue to wonder why i'm not on the courtesy pings for this meeting :p21:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 17 21:02:47 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'crossproject'21:02
morganfainbergttx, why must you jinx it like that :P21:02
ttxdevananda: you're now added21:02
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ttxOur agenda for today:21:03
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting21:03
ttx#topic Progress on Swift and Keystone developing next (incompatible) version of client libs in openstack-sdk21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Progress on Swift and Keystone developing next (incompatible) version of client libs in openstack-sdk (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:03
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ttxBack in December we discussed how Swift and Keystone were developing the next-generation client libs via openstack-sdk21:03
ttx#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2014/crossproject.2014-12-02-21.01.html21:03
ttxBack then we said we'd talk again about how that went in February/March, so here we are21:04
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ttxnotmyname is not around, but reported that nothing has happened on Swift's side21:04
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ttxmostly due to other priorities21:04
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morganfainbergi can report much the same on Keystone side21:04
ttxmorganfainberg: hi!21:04
ttxmorganfainberg: is it still in the cards for keystone ?21:04
morganfainbergnot this cycle.21:04
ttxmordred: heh21:05
ttxarh tab fail21:05
ttxmorganfainberg: heh21:05
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morganfainbergmordred, aha! for once it's the inverse tab-fail21:05
briancurtinfwiw, SDK has made a ton of progress and will soon be at a better point that other projects can leverage it like those were planned (pending their availability/priority, of course)21:05
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jeblaircareful; you have summoned mordred to a meeting with the words "client" and "incompatible" in the topic.21:05
morganfainbergttx, we did discuss we are going to split all the auth logic out of keystoneclient, session, plugins, etc.21:05
morganfainbergttx aiming for liberty early21:06
ttxbriancurtin: would you say it's a sane approach for projects that want a next-gen CLI to piggyback on openstack-sdk ?21:06
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* bknudson was planning to change auth-token to use keystoneclient, maybe should use sdk instead.21:06
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morganfainbergthis will be consumable by SDK and anything else.21:06
dhellmannttx: now that openstackclient is official, perhaps we should be encouraging projects to add their next-gen CLIs there?21:06
mordredttx: CLI should use python-openstackclient21:06
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devanandanaive question on openstack-sdk -- is there a goal to have this used for intra-serice communication?21:06
mordredwhich is what projects are already doing21:06
briancurtinttx: yes. SDK will soon be able to provide a consistent REST client *library* from which CLIs could be build21:06
morganfainbergdhellmann, ++ more people should have CLIs in OSC :)21:06
ttxjeblair: I did it on puprose, I was surprised that idea flew so easily in december21:07
briancurtindevananda: i dont work on any services myself, but the goal is to make libraries taht can be used intra-service - yes21:07
mordredbriancurtin, ttx: I think that that would be more OSC moving to OpenStack SDK21:07
dhellmannmordred: ++21:07
stevemarmordred, which will happen, eventually21:07
briancurtin^probably, i dont know 100% what next-gen CLI means so i spoke a bit early21:07
ttxmorganfainberg: does mordred's plan fit in your long-term view for the next-gen CLI ?21:08
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morganfainbergttx, i'21:08
jeblairdevananda: people tell me that the python-*client stuff is really focusing on inter-service communication, and that's why it's not a good place to develop user-side client interfaces21:08
morganfainbergve already pushed the CLI stuff over to OSC21:08
devanandainteresting. so do you see eg. Nova using the common client instead of python-glanceclient at some point?21:08
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devanandajeblair: that is what I had heard as well21:08
morganfainbergi let them drive the best approach, it doesn't let me drop bitrotting things from ksc though21:08
jeblairdevananda: if the services move to the common client and take that same attitude with them, i'm going to be upset21:08
fungidevananda: briancurtin: by intra-service do you mean when nova needs to talk to neutron, using openstack-sdk instead of python-neutronclient to accomplish that?21:08
mordredI would counsel stongly not putting the cart before the horse21:08
briancurtinfungi: yes21:08
fungier, what devananda typed faster than i did21:08
mordredlet's get the thign we don't have right now21:08
devanandafungi: that is my question, yes21:08
mordredwhich is a usable end-user library21:08
ttxmordred: topic is, back in december while you were asleep both keystojen and swift declared wanting to write incompatible next-gen CLI21:08
jeblairmordred: ++21:09
mordredwe don't have that at all21:09
devanandaI do *not* think that is the right goal, fwiw21:09
mordredbecause python-*client is CRAP21:09
morganfainbergso the net approach is split out the stuff i don't want to get clobbered by KSC wonky-compat stuff into it'w own thing21:09
devanandaI would much prefer the python*clients to stay focused on intra-service interactions, and the common / unified client to really be focused on client-side usability21:09
morganfainbergso SDK and shade and anything else can do things with it w/o getting compat things.21:09
mordreddevananda: ++21:09
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sdaguehonestly, ++ on using the sdk for cross service interactions21:09
mordredshade also wants to port to openstacksdk when it's ready21:09
dhellmanndevananda: yes, I understood that to be the plan, at least for now.21:09
fungiso we'll be doing stable branches of the sdk presumably to accomplish inter-service communication hopefully21:10
briancurtindevananda: SDK isn't *focused* on intra-service, but by just providing a consistent and usable interface, you get it for free21:10
devanandathanks all. didn't mean to derail - -just wanted some clarification.21:10
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dhellmannsdague: now that we're using virtualenvs and have stable branches of libs in the gate, that would work (eventually)21:10
fungibecause the "backward compatible one branch" model has pretty much been identified as not working for stable intra-service purposes21:10
morganfainbergbriancurtin, i'll ping you about auth stuff net week.21:11
mordredyah - it's a different use case21:11
briancurtinsounds good21:11
mordredfungi: ++21:11
ttxOK, i'm a bit confused21:11
mordredttx: I can't imagine why21:11
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ttxprobably because this day is too long21:11
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devanandattx: much ...21:11
morganfainbergttx, i haven't even had coffee yet :(21:11
mordredjust please please please don't screw the SDK up with intra-service stuff yet21:12
morganfainbergthe day is turning into a nightmare.21:12
* fungi hasn't even had beer yet21:12
devanandamorganfainberg: oh the horror!21:12
ttxmorganfainberg: could you summarize what you plan to do for keystone, between openstack-sdk and openstackclient and all ?21:12
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mordredgive it some time to be useful for the use case which is currently a nightmare21:12
jeblairmordred: ++21:12
devanandamordred: ++21:12
ttxfungi: I didn't have my guinness yet21:12
sdaguemordred: in what way would it be screwed by that?21:12
mordredsdague: release policy being completely different21:12
morganfainbergttx, so in short, we're going to split out, targeted for liberty some bits from keystoneclient that are common [auth]21:12
mordredfor intra-service - it is important to know version21:12
mordredfor end user, it is explicitly important to not21:12
devanandasdague: different audience => subtly different requirements21:12
morganfainbergttx, the parts that should never have compat carried with it.21:12
devananda(or maybe not so subtly different)21:13
morganfainbergthis is session, auth, plugins, adapters21:13
mordredbecause an end user does not know if you installed essex or havana and should not21:13
mordredand some end users may want to connect to both21:13
ttxmorganfainberg: and that split-stuff would end up... in openstackclient ?21:13
sdaguemordred: so, I'm not convinced it's actually important in the intra service case either, but that's fine21:13
morganfainbergand then we will focus on using SDK for "next gen" client-y things that interact with the API in non-auth ways21:13
mordredsdague: awesome- except we just added stable branches for client libs21:13
morganfainbergttx, no, that will be it's own lib, like middleware that just handles auth processes. I expect SDK to consume it21:14
sdaguemordred: we added that because pip is drunk21:14
mordredsdague: in any case- I'm just asking that we get end-user solid first21:14
ttxmorganfainberg: ah, starts making more sense21:14
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mordredbefore we add another use case21:14
fungiyeah, and this paradox has led to all sorts of testing and packaging pain too. does a distro package the version of glanceclient which their packaged version od nova needs to talk to their packaged version of glance, or do they package a version of glanceclient that they want their cloud users talking to random glance service providers with?21:14
sdagueif pip wasn't drunk, we could largely have avoided that21:14
morganfainbergttx, it lets us drop the compat worries for the shared stuff. it also means i can drop some bitrotting stuff in keystoneclient because we will be changing dependency trees21:14
mordredI'm just asking that we get end-user solid first before we add another use case21:14
mordredsince we have largely screwed our end users constantly since the inception21:15
morganfainbergttx, it's an effort to not carry keystone-compatibility and keystone-specific API code for commonly shared / used code.21:15
sdaguemordred: sure, that's fine21:15
lifelesssdague: is there a spec on the pip drunkeness somewhere? I'd like edumacation21:16
ttxok, I think I got it . Wondering how much of that plan has potential to be replicated elsewhere21:16
sdaguelifeless: it has no resolver21:16
fungi#link https://github.com/pypa/pip/issues/98821:16
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lifelesssdague: lets not derail here; I know that much - after the meeting perhaps?\21:16
dhellmannmorganfainberg: is all of that written down somewhere else?21:17
ttxmorganfainberg: basically I'd like your specific plan to be part of a long-term vision on lcient libs and CLI21:17
morganfainbergttx, i'll be proposing the infra/goverance changes next week with a code split. but the target for release will be liberty. that will document the whole plan between gov. repo and infra bits21:17
ttx(that was the idea for this status update, let projects experiment and see what can be adopted elsewhere)21:17
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ttxmorganfainberg: cool21:18
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morganfainbergdhellmann, ^21:18
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dhellmannmorganfainberg: ++21:18
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ttxAlright, last thoughts / questions on that topic ?21:18
morganfainbergthe tl;dr is "help make it so SDK can be successful so we can move stuff to it sanely"21:19
bknudsondo we have any idea how close it is to parity?21:19
ttxsounds like a plan. Next topic...21:19
bknudsonwith keystoneclient?21:19
ttxarh, bknudson's last second question.21:19
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morganfainbergbknudson, bigger discussion21:19
bknudsonok, don't worry about it.21:19
morganfainbergbknudson, i don't think we're there yet.21:20
ttx#topic Add library stable release procedures/policy21:20
*** openstack changes topic to "Add library stable release procedures/policy (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:20
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/155072/21:20
briancurtinbknudson: on parity, we haven't made that a priority since we've only been using the auth bits. once we stabilize API, getting to parity with any other clients isn't too hard21:20
ttxThis one is really in the final stage before final approval by the TC, so if you have a strong opinion on it, please voice it now.21:20
ttxIf it is still consensual by the end of the week I'll put it on next TC meeting agenda for final rubberstamping.21:20
morganfainbergin short, stable releases of clients?21:20
ttxBecause we want to apply it for kilo21:20
dhellmannmorganfainberg: yes, in addition to oslo and other libs21:21
bknudsonbackporting security fixes for libraries.21:21
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morganfainbergi think i voiced support for this a while back. cool21:21
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bknudsonand keystonemiddleware?21:21
morganfainbergyes middleware would adhere to this21:22
dhellmannbknudson: if it is a library, it is covered by this policy21:22
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fungidriven in part by attempting to maintain requirements stability and the fact that our servers require the clients to do intra-service communication (per earlier topic)21:22
dhellmannfungi: right21:22
morganfainbergdhellmann, middleware is a little different, but it falls into the same policy easily (and should)21:22
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dhellmannthis is mostly driven by the fact that we are capping requirements in stable branches for applications, so I'm trying to describe a process for allowing patch releases into the stable branches for fixes21:22
devanandadhellmann: does this apply to python-*clients as well?21:22
ttxSo please, please, report on that spec if you agree or disagree. Not having an opinion is fine too.21:22
dhellmannmorganfainberg: middleware isn't useful on its own, right? so it's a library?21:23
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dhellmanndevananda: yes21:23
devanandahuh. ok.21:23
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adam_gone question: is maintenance and release mgmt of stable client libraries the responsibility of the individual client teams or stable-maint?21:23
dhellmanndevananda: because the alternative is they can never use oslo libraries21:23
morganfainbergdhellmann, it's ... well it could be useful on it's own w/ keystone. but uhm. lets just say yes it'sa libary.21:23
dhellmannadam_g: how is the work split up for the apps now?21:23
devanandadhellmann: yah. it makes sense. i'm just thinking of the situation between ironic and nova21:23
dhellmannmorganfainberg: :-)21:23
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morganfainbergdhellmann, for simplicity21:23
devanandadhellmann: that is, nova refuses to accept python-ironicclient in their requirements.txt file21:23
ttxadam_g: currently, individual client teams, usually driven by VMT (since only security updates will likely result in point releases)21:24
devanandadhellmann: but you can't use nova + ironic without installing it. and thus it should be capped on stable branches21:24
jogodevananda: there is a case of this right now for glanceclient21:24
jogoneeding a stable branch21:24
fungidevananda: the python-.*client libraries are used by services to talk to one another, so can't introduce dependency changes in new client releases without capping them in stable branches, and can't get security fixes to the stable branches if we cap them without branching them21:24
dhellmanndevananda: there's a separate spec somewhere that may deal with optional requirements like that21:24
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ttxfungi: we could however only create the branch if there is a backport21:24
dhellmannright, what fungi said21:24
adam_gdhellmann, as it is today, release management is generally handled by stable-maint-core, backports and general maintanence by individual project teams + stable-maint-core21:24
devanandayah. the reasoning to have stable branches of clients -- and thereby cap their requirements -- makes sense21:24
adam_gttx, thanks21:24
devanandait's one reason I join the pip-hate bandwagon21:25
dhellmannttx: technically we could, but if we do that we're going to screw up eventually, so let's choose a process that doesn't require anyone to make a decision on that21:25
dhellmannbranches are cheap21:25
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devanandabecause in ironic right now, we're trying to make sure tip of client continues to work with stable server and current server release21:25
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jogodevananda: https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-glanceclient/+bug/142316521:25
openstackLaunchpad bug 1423165 in Cinder "https: client can cause nova/cinder to leak sockets for 'get' 'show' 'delete' 'update'" [Undecided,New]21:25
dhellmanndevananda: right, and that could still be a goal under this system if you wanted it to be21:25
sdaguedevananda: you can't do that if you have releases21:25
ttxdhellmann: except we don't want to encourage backports in python-*client, so we might want to ahve an additional policy there21:25
adam_gdevananda, i think we'd want to strive for that even with stable branches21:25
sdaguethe requirements get into conflict pretty fast21:26
ttx(i.e. "they start in Phase III stable support")21:26
devanandattx: right. backports on clients doesnt seem to be a thing we are doing today, but if they have stable branches, we may need to21:26
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jeblairdhellmann: what is "$release" and "$SERIES" in that spec?21:26
dhellmannsdague: oh, I thought he meant "can talk to" not "can run in the same site-packages"21:26
devanandattx: eg, for security fixes21:26
dhellmannjeblair: sorry, I wasn't consistent. Both are things like kilo or liberty21:26
jeblairoooh, okay.21:26
sdaguedhellmann: but, the point is, it needs to live in the nova address space21:26
dhellmannI think ttx suggested $SERIES and I didn't find all of the $release instances and replace them21:26
fungiyeah, i think the clients need functional tests against devstack or something like that, but cease to need to be tested as intra-service communication libraries from a backward-compat perspective21:26
devanandasdague: OH. yes, I wasn't clear.21:27
dhellmannsdague: sure, in one use case21:27
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sdagueotherwise, kind of pointless, as that's a primary consumer21:27
jeblairdhellmann: yeah, that's probably worth fixing as i was really having trouble understanding it.  :)21:27
dhellmannjeblair: noted21:27
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ttxok, other questions on that one ?21:27
fungii'd imagine for example novaclient's functional tests would start to get run against supported stable release environments to ensure backward-compat21:28
jeblairdhellmann: i'm glad you put in the thing that said you didn't want to use stable/1.2.3, because i thought that's what you meant by $release and why you were distinguishing it from $SERIOUS21:28
devanandattx: i revert my position in our earlier conversation21:28
jeblair$SERIES even21:28
devanandattx: we will need stable branches of ironicclient21:28
dhellmannjeblair: I was $SERIOUS about it ;-)21:28
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ttxdevananda: ok21:28
morganfainbergjeblair, oh god stable/X.X.X would be awful.21:28
morganfainbergjeblair, stable/series ++21:28
dhellmannI'll clarify that in a new draft in the morning21:29
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fungiwe tried something akin to stable/x.y.z and there are some issues there21:29
ttxok, let's move on to next topic then21:29
fungibut better left for beertalk21:29
ttx#topic Managing stable branch requirements21:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Managing stable branch requirements (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:29
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/161047/21:29
jeblairfungi: i believe the only issue was that the process wasn't followed21:29
ttxThis one is about providing a more stable test environment for stable branches21:29
ttxby freezing the transitive dependency set and using that in tests21:29
ttxadam_g: I'll let you present it deeper21:29
adam_give pushed up a first pass at the required devstack changes for this at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/165195/21:30
adam_g#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/165195/21:30
fungijeblair: well, lack of existing tooling to match them to equivalent stable series branches for integration testing21:30
ttxThis one is also unlikely to affect that many people, but those with an opinion usually have a strong one21:30
ttxSo it is time to review it and provide feedback21:30
adam_gthe idea is to maintain a stable list of pinned transitive deps in requirements (in addition to global-requirements.txt), and use those when testing in the gate. this list is updated anytime global-requirements.txt changes21:30
bknudsonfewer gate breakages will be a positive affect.21:30
morganfainbergbknudson, ++21:30
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bknudsonupdated automatically?21:31
sdagueadam_g: I feel like this tooling should all be in requirements project, not in devstack21:31
morganfainbergsdague, ++21:31
adam_gi think the spec is ready for review, the only concerns i have at this point is 1) requiring devs updating global-requirements.txt to also compile and propose the static list 2) relying on pip-compile, which lives outside of openstack/stackforge21:31
morganfainbergi would like to see it clearly published centrally21:31
dhellmannyeah, if we have this in multiple repos we'll get wedged21:31
morganfainbergi think it would be a net-win for our distro packagers as well21:32
adam_gsdague, we need to change how we install things a bit, and that'll require something in devstack21:32
bknudsonhow are distros going to use this?21:32
fungii don't think it will likely be much help to distro packagers21:32
morganfainbergbknudson, same way they use g-r21:32
adam_gsdague, but yeah, any functionality can be pushed into reqs and devstack can just call that instead21:32
bknudsonnot having breaks will help, of course.21:32
fungimorganfainberg: by the time this exists, they've already settled on what versions to package21:32
dhellmannyeah, I expect distros will continue to use the more lenient file21:32
sdaguemorganfainberg: honestly, I don't think it will be. Because we are picking a very narrow requirements set they'll basically have to reinvent this all if they want to support anything other than big bang upgrades21:32
morganfainbergbknudson, they can confirm what we're testing against and what the transitive deps are. i know packagers would like that21:32
morganfainbergfungi, future looking even?21:33
morganfainbergnot just kilo21:33
fungimorganfainberg: for any branch21:33
morganfainbergeh ok21:33
bknudsonwe create packages at a certain level and ship with and then don't change.21:33
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morganfainbergoh it's a one-off when branching21:33
fungimorganfainberg: master is a moving target. by the time we branch, they've already decided on versions of packages21:33
morganfainbergnot auto-update on every g-r- patch?21:33
adam_gsdague, we're not picking a narrow requirement set, we're still using the ranges we provide in requirements.txt--we're just being narrow about what we use at a given point in time in our gate runs21:33
* morganfainberg shrugs.21:33
adam_gall the while satisyfing what we're publishing in requiremnts.txt for downstreams21:33
jeblairi have read the spec, but i am not certain why we want to solve this problem21:34
dhellmannfrankly, I'd like us to run for a while with the caps to see how big of a deal breaking changes are before we start being more strict21:34
morganfainbergi guess it would be good for CD but thats a different story.21:34
jeblairi am generally opposed to making it so that our software _only_ works in the gate21:34
jeblairand does not work for a user who just tries to run it21:34
ttxThis is all about preserving our ability to produce stable branches at all. If we don't simplify testing, we can't maintain them. So it should be seen as a net win21:34
ttxbecause the alternative is not pretty21:35
sdaguedhellmann: yeh, I'd agree, have we seen wedges with the current capping?21:35
adam_gjeblair, currently, a user who tries to "run it" may get something totally different than what was run in the gate 10 minutes ago, wrt to dependencies21:35
dhellmannttx: we're already expressing upper bounds on *our* requirements. How often are the stable tests still breaking because of transitive dependencies?21:35
bknudsonwe also have the issue now where we don't test with the min version req'd, so we don't know if it actually works ... e.g. cryptography 0.421:35
jeblairadam_g: yes, but the next time the gate runs, it will get what they got (or something later), and it will break, and we will know21:35
dhellmannjeblair: ++21:36
ttxdhellmann: I think there was a case last week, mentioned by jogo on the review21:36
jogottx: correct https://bugs.launchpad.net/devstack/+bug/143059221:36
openstackLaunchpad bug 1430592 in devstack "testtools-1.7.0 triggering pkg_resources.VersionConflict: (unittest2 0.5.1 (/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages), Requirement.parse('unittest2>=1.0.0'))" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Ian Wienand (iwienand)21:36
dhellmannttx: so 1. And how long did it take to fix?21:36
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jogo#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/devstack/+bug/1430592 is the exact case this spec should prevent21:36
adam_gjeblair, the "it will break" part is what the spec is trying to address21:36
dhellmannok, that's not even a runtime dependency21:36
jeblairadam_g: but this proposal will virtually guarantee that users will be unable to run the software without the extra setup that this does -- which is work that is not handled by pip21:36
dhellmannadam_g: but having it break is a useful piece of information21:36
sdaguealso, that was a pip is drunk moment right, it should have upgraded unittest2 but it did not21:37
jeblairadam_g: basically, this works around pip _so much_ that we would be better off simply not using it21:37
jogojeblair: using breaking stable breaches as a forcing mechanism to make people pay attention to stable branches means we block development for large chunks of time21:37
jeblairadam_g: because right now we say you can install with pip, but this means you can not.21:37
sdaguejeblair: yeh, this feels like at this point it's basically just ghetto pip221:37
jeblairjogo: it's not a forcing system, it's reality21:37
dhellmannjogo: capping a new requirement doesn't take a lot of time, though21:37
jeblairjogo: the software _really is broken_ and needs to be fixed21:37
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sdaguedone in shell scripts, which is weird21:37
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jogodhellmann: so that isn't always true, figuring out subtle breakage can be really hard21:38
bknudsoncapping requirement does take time especially when you don't know exactly when it broke21:38
jeblairjogo: this merely masks the problem and means that the only way to use the software is via the exact mechanism in the gate.21:38
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dhellmannjogo, bknudson : so let's track when we start seeing new versions of transitive dependencies in the gate to make that easier?21:38
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fungii too agree that trying to work around "our software doesn't work out in the world" is akin to sticking our developer heads in teh sand so we can continue to make progress on other things21:39
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ttxThe problem is, (1) the expertise to solve thsoe is pretty limited, and those people ususally work on master; (2) the tooling to follow such issues is pretty inexistent21:39
jogohonestly using pip with free floating deps to install this in the real world doesn't sound like a great idea to me21:39
bknudsonthe stable branches do work out in the world, because packagers pin versions.21:39
dhellmannjeblair, fungi : how hard would it be to track the pip freeze output for each job so when a job starts failing we could point out that it has different versions than the last time it passed?21:40
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fungibknudson: that is basically an argument in favor of having the distros do our stable branch testing for us21:40
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jeblairjogo: that's entirely valid.  i think some projects do hard-specify all transitive deps and versions.21:40
jeblairjogo: i think if we want to go that way, we should make that our only supported installation mechanism....21:40
ttxjeblair: so you suggest we fix the stable-gate-fixing staffing problem ?21:40
fungidhellmann: we basically already do?21:40
fungidhellmann: unless you're asking for more automation and reporting around it, that's already usually one of the first things i check21:41
jogoalso it wouldn't be hard to make a bot to automatically propose changes to the pinned stable branch deps21:41
dhellmannfungi: the current freeze output is in each log, but is there a diff since the last known good job run?21:41
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jogoso we can test new versions of libs and only approve using them if they don't break things21:41
fungidhellmann: i just pull up a recent passing job, an early failing job (identified via logstash) and then diff the pip freeze from them21:41
dhellmannfungi: ah, ok, sure21:42
dhellmannfungi: better tooling for that would be useful21:42
fungian argument can certainly be made for adding automation and reporting around that, but we'd need to define what it would look like21:42
jeblairdhellmann, fungi: yeah, i think there's room for that21:42
fungiguessing something akin to subunit2sql21:42
jogothis also comes down to a human problem, I do not want to keep putting out these fires21:42
ttxnobody wants21:43
dhellmannfungi: "your job ran with blah, blah, blah installed and that list is different from the job at time X that passed in this way..."21:43
dhellmannjogo: just because we don't want to do this, doesn't mean we want you to put out all the fires21:43
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jogodhellmann: so who wants to do it instead?21:44
dhellmannfrankly, I think if we leave things broken for a little bit we'll find some people willing to spend time debugging these things. So far we're doing it all for them.21:44
ttxshooting down this solution without proposing an alternative to fixing our stable maint gate issues is not really acceptable21:44
fungioften times the only way to get new people to help fight those fires (or even recognize that they are) is to step back and let them burn21:44
dhellmannand I use "we're" very loosely there, since I don't do it much :-)21:44
jogodhellmann: so part of the idea here is to decouple stable branch stuff from impacting master branch21:44
jeblairttx, jogo, adam_g: i think we need to pick an installation method and stick with it.  either use pip the way we are now, or use a different installation method where we use fixed versions everywhere.21:44
dhellmannttx: I am not yet convinced that this problem happens so often any more than we still have that problem, though. Are you?21:44
jogojeblair: what about master branch?21:44
ttxdhellmann: I trust the people who fight those every day, like jogo & adam_g -- if they push a solution, I want to support them21:45
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jogodhellmann: I wasn't sure it would happen much but it did a week ago21:45
ttxrather than push them to burnout by rejecting their attempts21:45
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dhellmannttx: ok. I do, too, but I think this adds more issues downstream, as jeblair pointed out.21:45
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jogodhellmann: this puts more burdon on stable teams yes21:46
jeblairttx: this is not a "stable maint gate" issue.  this is a "stable branch" issue.  the solution _must not be_ to make the gate different than reality.  the solution must fix reality.  :)21:46
ttxdhellmann: if the alternative is to have dead stable branches, not that much21:46
* adam_g would love to know who downstream actually uses stable branches via pip21:46
morganfainbergjeblair, there is no spoon.21:46
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dhellmannadam_g: I know of some deployments that work that way21:46
ttxjeblair: so far the only alternative I heard is to drop stabel branches completely. I would rather not have it come down to that21:46
dhellmannadam_g: some folks follow the stable branches instead of master because they're stable :-)21:46
jeblairttx: i think lots of alternatives have been suggested.  let me try to recap for you.21:47
adam_gdhellmann, weiiird21:47
ttxjeblair: key word is "suggested". We need people to work on those21:47
dhellmannadam_g: not at all, these folks do their own packaging21:47
jogojeblair: I agree, we can make how devstack installs stable align with how downstream folks who don't use packages install stable branches21:47
jeblair0) status quo -- because capping was a big part of the problem, let's try that and see how big the transitive problem really is first.21:48
adam_gdhellmann, exactly, they do their own packaging and likely run with some static set of dependencies (either satisfied by a distro or their own controlled pip mirrors)21:48
dhellmannadam_g: no, they do not use a distro. They make their own virtualenv-based packages with pip.21:48
ttxjeblair: We've been looking for someone to drive this for months21:48
ttxadam_g kindly volunteered, but if his solution won't fly, we need a backup plan21:48
ttxwith another volunteer to push it21:48
bknudsondhellmann: what do they do when they have a problem due to the package not working with the old code?21:49
ttx(network issues, I'm lagging now)21:49
jeblair1) the minimal change to adam_g's proposal that i would be okay with is to make the installation mechanism for stable branches use fully pinned deps always -- gate or end user.21:49
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jeblair2) that could extend to changing how we install the master branch too21:50
jeblair(i don't necessarily think that's a good idea)21:50
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fungithe problem he's trying to work around i think is that #2 "fully-pinned" is sort of a fairy tale21:50
dhellmannan issue with (1) is that we can't sync those pins into the projects because then we'd never be able to change the pins because the tests couldn't install the incompatible projects together, so we need to just manage the pins in g-r21:50
fungier, #121:50
ttxadam_g: what do you think of jeblair's suggestions ?21:50
adam_g#1 makes distro packagers lives a mess21:50
jeblairadam_g: how so?21:51
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fungiadam_g: why are distro packagers caring what we have pinned in stable branches?21:51
dhellmannand ftr, we haven't done (2) in the past because we want to catch incompatibilities in new releases of things we use early21:51
jeblairdhellmann: indeed21:51
fungii thought they'd already settled on packaged versions of things when we branched stable from master?21:51
adam_gjeblair, fungi because our stable branche requirements.txt ends up dictating what they need to ship in addition to our projects21:51
ttxjeblair: I agree that we could do (0) -- it's just that those transitive deps issues seem to be common enough21:52
fungiadam_g: don't they do that when we release? stable branch pinning is a post-major-release activity21:52
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jeblairadam_g: but if your proposal doesn't include changing them, then we are asking them to use known-broken requirements.21:52
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adam_gfungi, pinning them in stable means there will be potential problems when re-packaging our stable point releases, ie if distro has released some security fixes to a pinned dep21:53
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jeblairttx: i feel like there is not universal agreement on that.  i don't want to argue against jogo who says he's tired of it, but i also do think we need some real time with caps to see if they have an effect.  :(21:53
ttxOK, so it looks like the discussion can continue on the review --which was all +1 before this discussion21:54
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jeblairttx: i will write a response there.21:54
jogojeblair: so since adding caps, we have already seen one failure21:54
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jeblairi think this was useful21:54
ttxso I guess there is still value in raising specs at this meeting21:54
* morganfainberg has some interesting thoughts suddenly. 21:54
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morganfainberglet me stew on them and i'll write up my response to that review.21:54
openstackLaunchpad bug 1430592 in devstack "testtools-1.7.0 triggering pkg_resources.VersionConflict: (unittest2 0.5.1 (/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages), Requirement.parse('unittest2>=1.0.0'))" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Ian Wienand (iwienand)21:54
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jogohonestly I didn't think this would happen much, but it did21:55
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jeblairthat almost seems self-inflicted21:55
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dhellmannjogo: so another alternative is to cap "bad actors" as they come up21:55
dhellmannor pin, rather21:55
jogodhellmann: no fires please, not less21:55
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adam_gs/as they come up/when we are wedged/21:56
bknudsonyou pin it but then another packages unpins it.21:56
jogounless you are volunteering to put them all out21:56
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dhellmannadam_g: "as we learn that we have incompatibilities in the world" :-)21:56
morganfainbergi mean. really silly question... is it possible to pull an entry point and programatically populate to setuptools the requirements?21:56
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jeblairjogo: wasn't that case related to installing from debs, not pip?21:57
dhellmannmorganfainberg: ?21:57
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fungijogo: so can you describe how the proposed solution would have protected us from that bug while still allowing us to find out it's a problem?21:57
morganfainberge.g. g-r publishes as a package, and pbr or similar tool loads it, pushes the known versions of whatever pinned/capped to setuptools for install21:57
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adam_gwe can have a perioidic job that runs against global-requirements.txt and finds conflicts21:57
morganfainbergdhellmann, that way at least the fix is "push an updated g-r package" not chase down differnt dependency wonkyness in many openstack projects21:57
jogofungi: yes, it would have prevented it, because we would have had a pinned list of *all* dependencies, transient and all21:57
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ttxok, please continue discussion on the review, and moving on to final topic21:58
ttx#topic Open discussion & announcements21:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion & announcements (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:58
jogoand as adam_g just said, we have a periodic, say nightly, job that tries proposing new caps and if it passes the gate its good21:58
dhellmannmorganfainberg: I think I proposed that way back when pbr was just a twinkle in mordred's eye. It feels a bit weird to manage dependencies with an extra download, though21:58
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morganfainbergdhellmann, and then projects just say "i use 'testtools'" but the version is loaded from f-r.21:58
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ttxWe had 1:1s syncs today in #openstack-relmgr-office, logs at:21:58
ttx#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2015/ptl_sync.2015-03-17-09.00.html21:58
ttxWe discussed the last features and bugfixes before the kilo-3 tag21:58
morganfainbergdhellmann, let me re-open that w/ mordred and some folks later today.21:58
ttx(which coincides with Feature Freeze, so expect your favorite ML to be filled with FFE requests next week)21:59
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dhellmannmorganfainberg: you want to use the package data api to load a file, though, not setuptools21:59
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morganfainbergdhellmann, will work out details on right things post meeting21:59
* morganfainberg lets ttx carry on21:59
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ttxWell, we are mostly done21:59
ttxAnything else, anyone ?21:59
mordredttx: I'm hungry?21:59
ttxAnnouncement ?21:59
ttxjeblair: outage ?22:00
ttxmordred: Noma reopened22:00
mordredttx: I KNOW!22:00
mordredttx: TC meeting there?22:00
jeblairttx: gerrit outage saturday, email will be sent shortly.22:00
ttxmordred: also "La Maison des bois" burnt down22:00
ttxsome equilibrium in the force22:00
fungialso gerrit ip address change going along with the outage22:00
jeblair(this was originally announced in februrary -- this is our server + OS upgrade/move)22:00
jeblairand what fungi said ;)22:01
morganfainbergfungi, fun times ahead.22:01
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ttxok, closing down22:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 17 22:01:21 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-03-17-21.02.html22:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-03-17-21.02.txt22:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-03-17-21.02.log.html22:01
ttxThanks everyone, follow up on reviews please22:01
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fungitime for that guinness22:01
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eglynnfungi: way ahead of you :)22:03
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CheeseBurgaekarlso elo1 EmilienM enikanorov enikanorov__ enykeev erw esheffield esheffield__ esker esmute fc__ fifieldt flaper87 fnaval fouxm francois freerunner frobware fungi funzo garthb garthb_ garyduan garyh gchamoul geguileo gema gentux gibi gmann goodes gothicmindfood gpocentek greghaynes guitarzan gus gyee haleyb haneef23:47
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CheeseBurganikhil_k nikhil|afk NikitaKonovalov niska nithyag__ noslzzp notmyname novas0x2a|laptop nsaje_ obondarev ogelbukh olkonami otherwiseguy otoolee ozamiatin padkrish_ pcarver pczesno pdb peluse persia peterstac pleia2 prad primeministerp pritesh ptoohill radez_g0n3 raginbajin raildo_away rainya rakhmerov ramishra redrobot rhagarty rhagarty_ rharwood rhe00 rm_work rmk23:47
CheeseBurgarmoe roaet roaet_ rodrigods rossella_s rpodolyaka rromans rushiagr_away rushil russell_h russellb rvasilets rwsu s0mik_ s0nea s3wong_ sabari salv-orl_ sankarshan_away sbadia sballe sbalukoff sc68cal sdague sdake sdake_ SergeyLukjanov sfineberg shadower shivharis sigmavirus24_awa sileht simonmcc skarn skraynev slagle SlickNik sorrison SpamapS spredzy|afk23:47
CheeseBurgasreshetnyak SridharGaddam srsakhamuri stevebaker subscope SumitNaiksatam swamireddy_ Swanson sweston taron theanalyst TheJulia thumpba_ timello timfreund timrc tnurlygayanov toabctl toan tochi tr3buchet tris tristanC troytoman tsekiyama tteggel ttx ujuc unicell venkatesh_ vhoward vipul vishy vivek-ebay vkmc wendar whenry willroberts_ wznoinsk xek23:47
CheeseBurgaxingchao_ yamahata yapeng yjiang5 zaneb zaro zehicle zhhuabj_ zhiyan zigo zigo_ zz_avozza zz_jgrimm zz_johnthetubagu zz_ttrifonov23:47
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