Wednesday, 2015-05-27

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JRobinson__Hello All, APAC Docs meeting is set to begin in 10 minutes00:21
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loquacitieshello everyone!00:28
JRobinson__Hello hello00:29
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loquacitiesalright, let's get this party started then00:29
loquacities#startmeeting docteam00:30
openstackMeeting started Wed May 27 00:30:27 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is loquacities. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.00:30
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docteam)"00:30
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'docteam'00:30
loquacitieswho's here?00:30
JRobinson__Checking in00:30
berndbauschgood morning00:30
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loquacitieshi berndbausch good to see you :)00:31
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loquacitiesadahms: here?00:31
berndbauschI am afraid I will just lurk00:32
loquacitieslurking is just fine :)00:32
loquacitieshi katomo!00:32
loquacitieswe don't seem to have any of the apac red hatters ...00:33
asettledmacpher you around friend? :)00:33
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dmacpherasettle, hi00:34
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loquacitiesok, looks like there might be a conflict for those guys again00:34
loquacitieslet's get started00:35
loquacitiesoh, hi dmacpher :)00:35
dmacpherloquacities, hi there00:35
loquacities#topic Action items from the last meeting00:35
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loquacitiesi don't think we had anything there, since we've missed a couple of weeks00:35
JRobinson__One item - I was going to check on who was running US docs meeting00:35
loquacitiesoh, it's shilla00:36
JRobinson__So mark that one itme as completed :)00:36
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loquacities#topic Notes from Design Summit00:36
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loquacities#info RST conversion: Install Guide, Cloud Admin Guide, HA Guide00:36
loquacitiesthese are the books that we determined to be next in line for conversion00:36
JRobinson__Good to hear00:37
loquacitiesinstall guide will be the defcore projects only, and we'll start the conversion once we've branched for kilo00:37
loquacitieswhich should be soon00:37
loquacitieskarin is going to be the point person for that book, as the install guide speciality team lead00:37
loquacitiescloud admin guide will be the other main conversion project00:38
loquacitiesthe user guide speciality team will be handling that one00:38
JRobinson__Is there any etherpad notes to look over for this one?00:38
loquacitiesthe HA guide has already been started, meg mcroberts had a sprint on that at the summit00:38
loquacitiesJRobinson__: yep00:38
JRobinson__Thanks loquacities00:39
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loquacities#info all the etherpads can be found here:
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loquacities#info Lana will send out a summary of those to the ML Real Soon Now00:40
loquacities#info Much discussion about IA. User Guides will be rejiggered for Liberty.00:40
loquacitiesno major changes on IA at this point, other than the user guides00:40
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loquacitiesbut we did have a lot of really productive discussion about how we move to an EPPO-style layout, and organising guides by service instead of audience00:41
loquacitieswe want to try and move away from audience-based organisation as much as possible00:41
loquacities#info Lana to spend time on blueprints/old bugs this week and next00:41
loquacitiesso be aware that things will be moving around a bit for a little while00:41
loquacitiesalso: help gladly received :)00:41
loquacities#info Plan for helping out devs with docs in their repo00:42
loquacitiesthis was sparked by the ironic dev team00:42
JRobinson__Okay, older bug hunting time00:42
loquacitiesthe general idea being that we can provide assistance (through the speciality teams) to devs groups to clean up docs in the dev repos00:42
loquacitiesthis way, the devs get the help they need to clean up their own docs, but the maintenance burden remains with them, and not us00:43
loquacitiesthere's also discussion about tweaking the toolchain so that they can publish stuff in their dev repos to look like formal openstack documentation (with our theme, etc)00:43
loquacitiesany questions on any of that before we move on?00:43
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berndbauschwhat does "assistance" mean_?00:44
JRobinson__Are the docs in the developer repos in separate files or added with #comments in the coding?00:44
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loquacitiesin theory, what would happen is the PTL of the dev project would approach us, and we would then ask the appropriate speciality team to take on the project00:44
loquacitieshow much work is involved, etc, would be on a case-by-case basis00:45
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loquacitiesJRobinson__: these are the docs on doc.openstack/developer00:45
loquacitiesthey're usually RST, but they live in the dev repo, not openstack-manuals00:46
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JRobinson__loquacities, thank you!00:46
loquacitiesok, shall we move on?00:46
JRobinson__that all makes sense :)00:46
loquacitieswe can discuss this more as we go on, anyway00:47
loquacitiesfor now it's all in theory :)00:47
loquacities#topic Liberty specs in review00:47
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loquacitiesthe only two in flight right now are these ones:00:47
adahmsHello, hello - sorry loquacities00:47
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loquacities#link (Install Guide RST conversion)00:47
loquacitieshi adahms!00:47
adahmsMeeting heavy day today00:47
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loquacitiesyeah, it happens :)00:47
loquacitiesso this blueprint is the one karin drafted during summit00:48
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loquacitiesbe sure to check that out, it covers the install guide changes and RST conversion00:48
loquacities#link (API work)00:48
loquacitiesthis is anne's one for the API work00:48
loquacitiesthere's some interesting changes coming there, too00:48
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loquacitiesthe other outstanding specs right now are training guides00:49
loquacitiesbut bear in mind that now that we have a liberty plan, all the specs will be starting to push through00:49
loquacitiesany questions on specs?00:49
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JRobinson__Seems to be clear00:50
loquacities#topic Specialty teams00:51
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loquacitiesnot a lot of action from the speciality teams because summit00:51
loquacitiesbut here's the current state of play:00:51
loquacities#info HA Guide - Sprint during design summit. RST outline now available.00:51
loquacities#info Install Guides - Preparing blueprint/spec for RST conversion00:51
loquacities#info User Guides - Preparing for RST conversion of the Cloud Admin Guide00:51
loquacities#info Security Guide - No update, but needs love. Lana to touch base with Nathaniel.00:52
loquacities#info API docs - Please look at the new spec00:52
loquacities#info Networking Guide - Test & review. Blueprint/spec to be created for Liberty work.00:52
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loquacitiesanything i missed on speciality teams?00:52
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katomoOps Guide?00:54
loquacitiesah, good point00:54
JRobinson__I think that's all for the user guide team. Moving to RST cloud admin is the next step00:54
loquacitiesi don't have an update, but it needs some love00:54
loquacitiesit also doesn't currently fall into a specific speciality team, so that probably requires some thought00:55
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loquacitiesideally, all books would have a speciality team dedicated to them00:55
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loquacitiesthere was also some discussion about removing the upgrades section from the ops guide and putting it somewhere else (TBD where)00:56
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loquacitiesok, i think that's all for that side of things00:56
loquacities#topic APAC Meetups00:56
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loquacities#info Planning for an APAC OpenStack meet up in June, ping asettle & adahms00:57
loquacitiesone thing summit taught me is that the arch guide is definitely recognised as needing work00:57
adahmsWe spoke about this during the last meeting, but there is going to be a lot on during June - July on our side00:57
loquacitiesso the swarm is definitely welcomed by the larger docs community :)00:57
asettleloquacities well that's good00:57
adahmsYeah, that'll be cool00:57
loquacitiesoops, i've mixed my agenda items00:58
loquacities#info Planning for APAC Docs Swarm on 13-14 August, ping Suyog00:58
asettleloquacities it's all planned out from my side00:58
loquacitiesasettle: great!00:58
loquacitiesso, do we need to pick a different time for the meetup then?00:58
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JRobinson__sorry, forgot that the swarm was covered and only reminders are needed closer to the date itself00:58
loquacitiesi think the original plan was to have one soon after summit?00:59
adahmsYes, but I just don't think it is going to be feasible at this stage00:59
loquacitiesJRobinson__: i'd like to keep it on the agenda, if that's ok00:59
asettleIT was, however, Red hat was unable to come :(00:59
loquacitiesright, ok00:59
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JRobinson__Wednesday turned out to be a meeting intense day00:59
JRobinson__(Wednesday June 3)00:59
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loquacitiesok, maybe we should leave it up to adahms to find a time that works for the RH writers?01:00
loquacitiesi think monday or friday is usually easiest for my team01:00
asettleUsually, yep :)01:00
JRobinson__loquacities, I can't see any issues with keeping it there as long as meeting managers are okay with the brief ping once in a while01:00
loquacitiesas JRobinson__ said, wednesdays get meeting-heavy01:00
loquacitiesJRobinson__: yeah, i just don't want it dropping off the radar01:00
JRobinson__makes sense, yes01:00
loquacitiesok, adahms can i add an action item for you?01:01
loquacities#action adahms to find a suitable openstack meetup time soonish01:01
loquacitiesthanks :)01:01
loquacities#topic Meeting time01:02
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loquacities#info Now on alternating weeks, OpenStack ical is being updated today01:02
loquacities#info Shilla is running the US meeting01:02
loquacitiesany questions on the meeting administrivia?01:02
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loquacitiesok, that's it for formal agenda items for today01:03
loquacities#topic Open discussion01:04
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loquacitiesalright, thanks everyone01:05
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JRobinson__thank you o/01:05
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openstackMeeting ended Wed May 27 01:05:40 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)01:05
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stevebaker#startmeeting heat07:01
openstackMeeting started Wed May 27 07:01:01 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevebaker. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.07:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)"07:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'heat'07:01
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stevebaker#topic rollcall07:01
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tspatzierhi all07:01
prazumovskyhi all07:01
stevebakerwelcome, the rest of the world07:01
ramishrahi all07:01
stevebakerI see some new nicks in the room tonight07:02
stevebaker#topic Adding items to agenda07:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Adding items to agenda (Meeting topic: heat)"07:02
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stevebakerthis may end up being a shortish meeting, if we're all feeling a bit post-summit07:02
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stevebakeranything else for the agenda>07:03
stevebaker#topic heat reviews07:03
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prazumovsky>only item about semantics of support status parameters07:04
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stevebakerprazumovsky: yep, I pushed that one down07:04
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stevebakerSo here is the page I'll be curating
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stevebakerfeel free to add your own changes, or changes you think are important, and I'll keep it so that there are no more than 10 reviews so that heat-core have something manageable to put their attention on07:05
skraynev_stevebaker: ok07:06
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stevebakerhey, merged. we'll need to find something else important but not convergence07:06
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shardyWhere are we with fixing the memory usage issues?07:07
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stevebakersirushti: do you think you could refresh ?07:07
*** dguitarbite has joined #openstack-meeting07:07 mean for example parent stack inspection for example?07:07
sirushtistevebaker, sure, will do07:07
stevebakershardy: thats a point, I'll add my 2 for that07:07
Qiminganyone has signed up on the client changes?07:08
stevebakerQiming: which ones?07:09
Qimingoutputs as not-pretty-tables, stevebaker07:10
inc0 I blame this for memory usage07:10
stevebakeroh, here is an important client change, it fixes the broken gate
stevebakerinc0: my changes fix that07:10
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stevebakerQiming: I think ryansb was going to convert his existing openstackclient work to an in-tree plugin07:11
inc0stevebaker, thing is, this is only run in validation07:11
inc0from what I know07:11
inc0so before
stevebakerinc0: and create, and update. so I think the resources will be in db for the latter times it is called07:12
stevebakerlooks like the heatclient sessionclient change might be almost ready to land <- prazumovsky07:14
prazumovskyyes, I just wait merging07:14
inc0stevebaker, this is only place its called07:15
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stevebakerinc0: which is called by  _child_parsed_template, which is called by create_with_template and update_with_template07:16
inc0and we can't put db call there, because it will be called before
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stevebakerinc0: so its not validate only (and its being called too often, but that is a separate issue)07:16
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inc0fair enough, I guess we should dig into that more, but yeah, db call will help a lot07:17
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stevebakerinc0: I just want something that is appropriate to backport to kilo, then we should completely rethink the approach07:17
inc0yeah...whole logic of this fucntion seems...overengineered to say the least07:18
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inc0I mean recursively call total resources just to check if it doesn't exceed one variable in config?07:18
stevebakerare there any heat-specs burning hot right now?07:18
inc0but that's for another discussion.07:18
inc0I'll be cooking spec for random default parameter07:19
inc0I guess its not burning hot, but it touches hot;)07:19
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stevebakerok, I'll update the heat-specs section later07:20
stevebakermoving on07:20
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stevebaker#topic parameters for SupportStatus for displaying current status and from which object is supported07:20
*** openstack changes topic to "parameters for SupportStatus for displaying current status and from which object is supported (Meeting topic: heat)"07:20
prazumovskyNow we have one parameter version which displays version of the current status07:21
prazumovskyI want to add new parameter since which will means since which release this feature is available07:22
inc0... or when it was deprecated?:)07:22
stevebakerprazumovsky: like a history of support statuses?07:22
prazumovskybut 'since' is more suitable for current status, e.g. status.DEPRECATED since ... and version of object is ...07:23
ramishracan we not provide multiple support statuses, probably a list  ex. SUPPORTED, version DEPRECATED version?07:23
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Qiming+1 to 'since'07:23
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prazumovskysince for current statuses07:24
stevebakerprazumovsky: to me, 'version' is what since means07:24
inc0can we bump version without changing status?07:25
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prazumovskystevebaker: you mean version for current statuses and since for dispaying 'available since'?07:25
stevebakerinc0: why would we do that?07:25
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inc0I don't know, I'm asking - if we can't then I agree - version == since07:25
inc0thing is, what does version mean anyway if we change it *only* on status change?07:26
prazumovskyinc0: I think, we can bump version only if status changed, else for what07:26
stevebakerafaik, the version never changes after it is set (at least it hasn't to my knowledge), so it seems to already be behaving like a 'since'07:26
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inc0prazumovsky, then every version bump is essentialy "since" right?07:27
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stevebakerprazumovsky: since aside, it sounds like you would like a list of status objects to communicate the resource's history, which seems useful07:28
QimingSUPPORTED since 2014.1, DEPRECATED since 2015.107:28
prazumovskystevebaker: it's sounds reasonable07:29
stevebakerif we didn't want to make every status attribute accept a list of SupportStatus, we could always add a SupportStatus.previous_status, and they just accumulate like a singly linked list07:29
stevebakerwith the newest status at the root07:29
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prazumovskystevebaker: that's what I like07:30
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stevebakerprazumovsky: sure, +107:31
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prazumovskyOK, now it's clear for me, what to do, thanks:)07:31
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stevebakerprazumovsky: this is probably worthy of a short spec07:32
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inc0please, add an use case as well there07:32
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prazumovskythere is a spec ehich can contains this07:32
prazumovskybecause this changes relates to deprecation improvements07:33
stevebakerdeprecating improvements? I thought we wanted to do the opposite ;)07:33
stevebaker(dad joke)07:33
stevebakerprazumovsky: i've put that spec on the heat-reviews page07:34
inc0but in specs it's just done in regards to docs...07:34
prazumovskystevebaker: OK07:34
stevebaker#topic Open discussion07:34
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stevebakerinc0: I think SupportStatus is only used for docs generation?07:35
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Qimingstevebaker, it would be good to show support_status in resource-type-list too07:35
inc0maybe...I honestly don't know:)07:35
prazumovskyQIming: I work on it07:36
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stevebakerQiming: yeah, +1 if we don't already. there may be a spec for filtering by status too07:36
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inc0one question from me - regarding total_resources07:37
prazumovskyQiming: thank you, I don't know about it07:37
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inc0can we think of a way to count these without recursive counts? (I'm talking about not-yet-in-database case)07:37
inc0or wheter or not we *actually* need cfg.CONF.max_resources_per_stack in regards of nested stacks?07:38
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inc0I mean once we decoupled these in kilo...what's point of this config?07:38
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stevebakerinc0: its harder now that nested stacks are created via rpc calls. In the old days all stacks were in memory anyway07:38
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inc0I know, but that's why this config existed in the first place right?07:39
inc0to limit memory consumption if user wants huge stack07:39
inc0now we decoupled nested stacks, so its only a problem with huge single stack07:39
inc0and these are way easyier to count...07:40
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shardyinc0: well, or a huge tree of nested stacks on a single heat-engine..07:40
stevebakerinc0: you have a point, since they're really separate stacks now we may not need to limit by the whole stack tree, and I think we already have a total stack quota I think07:40
inc0anyone uses single heat engine? and should we care about such people if they're asking themselves for problems anyway?07:40
shardybut yeah, maybe just a limit on stacks, and resources per individual stack is enough, then rely on underlying services to enforce their own quotas07:41
shardyinc0: well, TripleO does in many cases..07:41
inc0fair enough07:41
inc0but in tripleo total_resources is irrelevant anyway right?07:41
shardywhich is the use-case which exposed the excessive memory consumption problems recently07:41
inc0validation I mean07:41
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shardyinc0: yeah, keep creating resources until your seed OOM kills something :\07:42
inc0ironically, validation takes most of memory, not actual execution07:42
shardyBut you're right, maybe we should make enforcing the limits optional07:42
stevebakerthe irony was not lost on us07:42
shardyand turn them off for the tripleo seed07:42
inc0my question is - do we need that kind of validation at all;)07:43
therveinc0, GOOD question07:43
stevebakershardy: that may not be backportable though, I may prefer intrepreting max_resources_per_stack to not include nested stack resources07:43
inc0it was relevant in tenat cloud without decouple nested07:43
therveFrankly I feel that validation mostly exists because services provide poor error feedback07:44
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shardystevebaker: I was thinking a new value to an existing config option, e.g max_resources_per_stack = False or something07:44
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shardythat probably would be backportable, as it's not adding a new option07:44
stevebakershardy: but if the default remains the same then it still remains broken for everyone else07:45
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inc0we can revise if it's required at all, and for now keep this optional07:45
stevebakershardy: and it probably has to remain the same for a backport07:45
inc0and later on possibly deprecate whole mechanism07:45
shardystevebaker: true, but not everyone is creating trees 50 stacks deep07:46
shardyand the option would be available to everyone07:46
shardystevebaker: if there's a way to fix the validation for the default case, obviously we should do that though :)07:46
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stevebakerthankfully the root_stack_id change which has landed has merits on its own07:47
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inc0soo...spec for applying "false" as possible value for max_resources_for_stack?07:48
inc0or just point out 0 == unlimited?07:48
inc0or -1 ;)07:49
stevebakershardy, inc0, therve, etc: could you put your thoughts in the review and poke the USians when they're up? I don't mind throwing away that work07:49
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shardystevebaker: sure, will do07:49
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stevebakershould we finish off now? any other business?07:50
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"07:51
openstackMeeting ended Wed May 27 07:51:02 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)07:51
openstackMinutes (text):
stevebakerthanks for coming everyone07:51
stevebakersee you next fortnight07:51
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xuhaiwei_hi, stevebaker07:51
stevebakerxuhaiwei_: hi07:52
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xuhaiwei_we have discussed in the summit , about this spec
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xuhaiwei_can you give some advices to fullfill the use case?07:53
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stevebakerxuhaiwei_: I think you should expand on "User wants to upload several script files" with a more specific example, including what happens during stack-create, stack-update07:55
stevebakerxuhaiwei_: It could be that a slightly modified OS::Heat::SoftwareComponent would meet your needs07:56
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xuhaiwei_ok, there will be another meeting here?07:57
xuhaiwei_stevebaker, I will try to use softwareComponent, thanks07:58
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stevebakerxuhaiwei_: or just talk in #heat07:58
xuhaiwei_stevebaker, ok07:59
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xuhaiwei_stevebaker, maybe talk with you later, see you08:00
stevebakerxuhaiwei_: \o08:00
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jgriffithdulek_home: DuncanT hemna xyang1 jungleboyj e0ne et all16:00
flip214jgriffith: "et all", bah16:00
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deepakcshi all16:00
flip214oh, and it would be "et al", BTW.16:00
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jgriffith#startmeeting cinder16:00
openstackMeeting started Wed May 27 16:00:40 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'cinder'16:00
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jgriffithWe've got a pretty full agenda so let's get on with it16:00
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jgriffithe0ne: :) thanks16:01
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jgriffithreminder: please put your name next to your proposed topic16:01
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jgriffith#topic Live-Migration changes16:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Live-Migration changes (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:01
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jgriffithhemna: I'm assumign this is you?16:02
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jgriffithhemna: ?16:02
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jgriffithgiving hemna 30 seconds, then moving on and we'll come back16:02
jgriffith15 more seconds...16:03
dulek_homeCan we get back to it at the end? Guys from my team are in a traffic jam and will be able to discuss helping with Nova stuff in 30 minutes.16:03
jgriffithOk, we'll come back *if* we have time16:03
kmartinhemna, is presenting to SNIA right now16:03
jgriffith#topic Cinder internal tenant16:03
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jgriffithpatrickeast: you're up16:03
patrickeastso this got brought up a bit at the summit16:03
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patrickeastfor fixing the hidden volumes problem16:03
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patrickeasti have some mention of it in this spec
patrickeastfor the image cache16:04
patrickeastafter talking with some folks over the last couple days i wanted to bring it up at a meeting and make sure there wasn’t any strong resistance16:04
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DuncanTSeems like a good idea to me16:04
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patrickeastand it looks like there is a review up proposing a hidden flag to volumes, so i think we need to maybe make a decision on which direction we go16:04
patrickeastand unify all the various efforts on that approach16:05
patrickeastquestions? comments? concerns?16:05
* DuncanT prefers a special tenant to the hidden flag16:05
jgriffithpatrickeast: so I need to read your spec more carefully, but i mentioned the other day another spin16:05
jungleboyjo/  Here now.  Sorry.16:05
tbarroninternal tenant seems potentially useful for lots of stuff16:06
jgriffithpatrickeast: "special tenant" and public snapshots16:06
jgriffithpatrickeast: but I know the public snapshots is contentious16:06
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e0neDuncanT: +1 for special tenant16:06
jgriffithpartially because of my own statements :)16:06
patrickeastjgriffith: hehe yea id rather not tie special tenants to doing public snapshots, more like if we go down that road we could use the special tenant16:06
jgriffithAnybody object to internal tenant?16:06
tbarronpatrickeast: +116:06
jgriffithpatrickeast: well... the problem IMO is your spec is actually to "solve" the image-caching issue16:07
jgriffithpatrickeast: not "sholud we do special tenant"16:07
geguileor+1 to special tenant16:07
patrickeastjgriffith: yea i was wondering about that… maybe we should split it out?16:07
jgriffithI think we're all agreed on the tenant idea so that's great16:08
xyang2special tenant can be used for temporary volume, temp snapshot, and image cache.  fine with me16:08
jgriffithpatrickeast: might be good to split it out16:08
jgriffithpatrickeast: for the sake of clarity and "argument" :)16:08
patrickeastsounds good16:08
jgriffithxyang2: +116:08
jungleboyjSounds like something that can be used by multiple people.16:08
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jungleboyjxyang2: ++16:08
e0nexyang2: +116:08
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patrickeasti’ll make a new bp and spec that we can use as a dependency for the other ones that would need it16:08
jgriffithWe need to be carefule though16:08
rajinirLike the idea of special internal tenant. Seems like it can be of multi use16:09
jgriffithand VERY specific on it's usage16:09
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jgriffithIt's easy for something like this to become HORRIBLY abused!!!!16:09
patrickeastjgriffith: +116:09
cebrunsjgriffith: +116:09
jgriffithincluding circumventing things like quotas in public clouds etc16:09
kmartinagree, the special tenant would be useful16:09
patrickeastwe are shooting for just the right amount of abuse16:09
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jgriffithor private for that matter16:09
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jgriffithso let's clarify...16:09
jgriffithI propse we're very specific and it's NOT just a "special" tenant16:09
jgriffithwhich can be anything anybody wants it to be16:10
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jgriffithin this case I suggest it's something like "cinder-image" tenant16:10
jgriffithand it's specifically for image caching and management, nothing more16:10
patrickeastoh that brings up another thing i wanted some feedback on, should we have multiple of these? one for image caching, or for migration helping, etc?16:11
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e0neagree about caching16:11
jgriffithif other valid use cases come up we can adjust and deal with them16:11
e0nejgriffith: what type of management do you mean?16:11
xyang2jgriffith: I also need it for non-disruptive backup16:11
jgriffithpatrickeast: so that's the rat-hole I'm hoping to avoid here16:11
xyang2jgriffith: vincent needs it for migration16:11
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jgriffithe0ne: so my use-case is something like this;16:11
patrickeastjgriffith: yea, but we already have 3(?) use cases wanting it16:11
geguileorIf we create specific users we'll end up with a bunch of them16:11
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jgriffithimage-tenant creates bootable volumes from glance images on a periodic of some sort16:11
e0newe need to specify all use-cases in spec16:12
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jgriffithprovides public snapshot or volume to "other" tenants16:12
DuncanTSpecific users makes figuring out WTF is going on easier16:12
jgriffithDuncanT: +116:12
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jgriffithDuncanT: so this could turn into a SERIOUS mess if we're not very careful and explicit16:12
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jgriffithstart throwing around migration blah blah blah and we're pretty well sunk IMO16:12
DuncanTIndeed, it is already starting to feel like a new nail...16:13
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jgriffithIMO the image-tenant is just a sort of "glance proxy" to start with16:13
jgriffiththat's all16:13
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patrickeasti agree 100% that we don’t want to mis-use this, but if we don’t then we end up with a hidden flag on the volume table *and* special tenants16:13
jgriffithpatrickeast: ?16:14
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patrickeastwe can’t just exclude migrations or whatever else16:14
jgriffithpatrickeast: sure we can16:14
jgriffithpatrickeast: I don't see what migrations has to do with the topic?16:14
jungleboyjjgriffith: To be clear, you don't want to have a general user, you want a specific user for a specific purpose.16:14
patrickeastright, but then we get
jungleboyjWe can start with image-tenant and then expand.16:14
patrickeastthe whole point of the special tenant is to avoid a hidden flag on the volume table16:14
* flip214 was reminded to act as timekeeper again.... so, ¼ of the time is gone.16:15
patrickeastthats why it came up in the first place16:15
patrickeastmaybe we can discuss after the meeting more16:15
patrickeasti don’t want to hog all of the time16:15
jgriffithpatrickeast: there... that's fixed16:15
e0nejungleboyj: looks like we neet to start use trusts from the keystone api v316:15
xyang2jgriffith, DuncanT: I do need to create temp volume and snapshot for the non disruptive backup case, so either I need a hidden flag or a cinder tenant for it.  I thought at the summit, cinder tenant was the preferred approach16:15
e0neto make more thin user management16:15
jungleboyjxyang2:  ++16:16
geguileorYes cinder tenant was preferred because it didn't meant changes to Quota16:16
geguileoramong other things16:16
jgriffithxyang2: So that may in fact be something that this idea expands to, although I don't understand why it has to be "hidden"16:16
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xyang2jgriffith: it is a temp snapshot, we don't want user to do operation on it16:17
jgriffithxyang2: so online backup requires creation of a snapshot... no problem IMO16:17
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jgriffithxyang2: well, keep in mind users can't really *do* anything with snapshots anyway :)16:17
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DuncanTjgriffith: It's the vol from snap for lagacy drivers that is the issue16:17
jgriffithxyang2: and frankly what would they *do*16:17
DuncanTjgriffith: The snap is fine16:17
DuncanTjgriffith: But we need to create a hidden volume16:17
jgriffithDuncanT: so mark it as R/O16:18
xyang2jgriffith, DuncanT: they can still list it.  is it okay16:18
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jgriffithfrankly I don't care if they can list it16:18
xyang2DuncanT: ya, hidden volume is another issue16:18
DuncanTjgriffith: quota? Them deleting it in the middle of the operation?16:18
jgriffithDuncanT: ummm16:18
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jgriffithDuncanT: quota = deal with it16:18
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jgriffithDuncanT: deleting in the middle of an operation we check that sort of thing in the API all the time16:19
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jungleboyjjgriffith: I think you do care.  People get confused if they see volumes show up that they didn't create.16:19
jgriffithDuncanT: if !available raise16:19
DuncanTjgriffith: Volumes coming out of nowhere was shown to be a very confusing UI for migrations, I don't think it is going to get any less confusing16:19
xyang2DuncanT, jgriffith: right, quota is the other issue that why we thought cinder tenant is preferred16:19
jungleboyjMaybe it was DuncanT that really cared, but I think we should care.16:19
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tbarronjungleboyj: +116:19
jgriffithI'll leave it to you all to sort out then, but I suspect you're not going to like the end result :(16:19
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e0nejungleboyj: good point16:20
jgriffithjungleboyj: and no, I don't care on that particular item16:20
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jungleboyjjgriffith: Ok, must have been DuncanT16:20
jgriffithjungleboyj: people get "more" confused when there's invisible things happening and stuff fails and they have zero idea why16:20
DuncanTSo we see what it looks like in code having a backup tenant too... it won't be used for any driver that is updated to be able to backup snaps directly, so it is hopefully temporaty16:21
jgriffithso it sounds like everybody is on board with "special" tenants16:21
xyang2jgriffith: what if it is visible to admin only, just not to regular tenant?16:21
jgriffithI'll let everybody else argue about where/how they can be used16:21
patrickeastok so… heres my proposal, i’ll write up a spec for the special tenant and put as many of these use cases on there as i can16:21
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jungleboyjxyang2: ++  We need the tenants for that though, right?16:21
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patrickeastwe can hash out which of them are ‘valid’ or not in the spec review16:21
xyang2jungleboyj: yes16:21
jungleboyjpatrickeast: __16:21
geguileorpatrickeast: +116:21
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jungleboyjpatrickeast: ++16:21
jgriffithxyang2: sure, maybe that works16:22
jgriffithso patrickeast did we at least cover the main points for you to move forward?16:22
patrickeastjgriffith: haha yea, i think everyone seems to be on board16:22
patrickeastjust a matter of figuring out exactly how we use them16:22
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jgriffith#topic hin provisioning volume capacity consideration in filter scheduler16:22
*** openstack changes topic to "hin provisioning volume capacity consideration in filter scheduler (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:22
jgriffiththat's "thin" by the way :)16:23
jgriffithnot hin16:23
jgriffithxyang2: you're up16:23
xyang2is winston here?16:23
xyang2this was brought up by patrickeast16:23
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xyang2so currently we deduct the size of the new volume for thin provisioning from free capacity16:23
tbarronxyang2: winston said he had a conflict today16:23
xyang2this is the conservative approach we started with in the design16:24
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xyang2the concern is for thin volume, it is not consumed yet when it is first provisioned16:24
xyang2the proposed patch allows two ways of handling this16:24
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xyang2a flag was added, if it is true, we deduct the size of the new volume16:25
xyang2if it is false, we don't deduct it16:25
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xyang2anyone has an opinion on this16:25
patrickeastxyang2: so i think there are actually two things here, my bug originally wasn’t even for that issue (and now our conversation yesterday makes more sense)16:25
jgriffithxyang2: well I do of cource :)16:25
xyang2jgriffith: go ahead16:25
patrickeastthe bug is that you can create 100 2TB devices on a 100TB backend but not 1 200TB volume16:26
openstackLaunchpad bug 1458976 in Cinder "cannot create thin provisioned volume larger than free space" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Xing Yang (xing-yang)16:26
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patrickeastthen there is the issue of as you create thin volumes16:26
patrickeastit eats up ‘free’ space16:26
patrickeastuntil the next stats update16:26
jgriffithxyang2: well, I've always been of the opinion that we need to quit pontificating and screwing around report capacities16:26
jgriffithxyang2: that means "available" which use the over-prov ratio you implemented16:27
jgriffithin the case of thin16:27
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jgriffithand distinguish between allocated and provisioned16:27
jgriffithI've propsed this no less than 1/2 a dozen times in the last 18 months16:27
guitarzanthat's a crazy bug report :)16:27
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guitarzanthin provisioning is a crazy pit I'm glad I'm not jumping into :)16:28
xyang2jgriffith: sorry, I don't think I completely follow you:(.  what is your suggestion?  by the way, our definition may be a little different16:28
jgriffithxyang2: I'm sure our definitions are different which has always been the problem16:29
jgriffithxyang2: everybody wants "their" definition and won't compromise on anything16:29
jgriffithxyang2: so my proposal is and has been just report the same way the reference LVM thin driver does16:29
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jgriffithxyang2: allocated vs actual16:29
jgriffithxyang2: and calculate deltas to report and schedulel placement16:29
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jgriffithxyang2: so if you have thin provisioning and a backend with 100G of free space16:30
jgriffithit reports free-space + (free-space * over-prov-ratio)16:30
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jgriffithand free-space = physical - allocated16:31
jgriffithallocated is "actual" blocks used16:31
jgriffithxyang2: make sense?16:31
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bswartzjgriffith: the term "allocated" is problematic because it doesn't match the definition of allocated_space in cinder -- I understand what you mean though16:32
xyang2jgriffith: so "allocated" means actually used capacity.  I think that is how free is calculated currently, just the term is not the same16:32
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patrickeastso to make sure i understand if you had 100G of free space, and a 2.0 ratio, you could place a 200G thin volume, right?16:32
patrickeastwith what you described16:32
jgriffithpatrickeast: correct16:33
patrickeastthats what my bug report is for… we can’t do that today16:33
jgriffithbswartz: yeah, so the other suggestion for the "name" conflict was apparant or effective16:33
jgriffithbswartz: specifically for the scheduler16:33
* flip214 mentions that half of the time is gone.16:34
bswartzI think using different terms in different places is what of what leads to the madness and misunderstandings16:34
jgriffithflip214: thanks for the reminder sir16:34
flip214jgriffith: no problem. glad to be of service!16:35
xyang2bswartz, jgriffith: do we really want to start discuss the terms now?  I added a whole section on terms in the cinder spec16:35
jgriffithbswartz: well, for an end user allocated should not take into account anything to do with thin16:35
jgriffithxyang2: thanks!  You saved me16:35
tbarronxyang2: +116:35
jgriffithand my blood pressure16:35
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bswartzI just wanted to point out that we don't want to argue about what the terms should mean, we want whatever the terms are to be crisply defined so there is no confusion16:35
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xyang2jgriffith: ok, I don't think I explained the problem clearly.16:36
patrickeastso… terms and formulas aside, i think the original topic isn’t for *how* we calculate the virtual space16:36
xyang2jgriffith: there's definitely a bug that reported by patrick16:36
jgriffithxyang2: agreed16:36
xyang2jgriffith: and I want to fix it.16:36
jgriffithxyang2: yes, and that's FANTASTIC16:36
xyang2jgriffith: the question is whether we want to also preserve the existing behavior16:36
jgriffithxyang2: I'm proposing that we fix it by having the drivers report capacities in a way that isn't stupid16:36
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jgriffithxyang2: which frankly right now they kinda are16:37
patrickeastthe bug is a flaw in how we do the filter logic, not the virtual space16:37
patrickeastor at least i see it as a flaw16:37
xyang2jgriffith: it is not the driver here actually.  the filter scheduler deduct the volume size16:37
winston-dpatrickeast: +116:37
jgriffithpatrickeast: it can be addressed on either side16:37
jgriffithpatrickeast: and the scheduler may be the right place16:37
jgriffithpatrickeast: xyang2 my thing was I didn't like the fix and adding a flag etc16:38
patrickeastjgriffith: nono, the problem is that the filter doesn’t ever get to the virtual capacity stuff as-is16:38
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tbarronthe issue is about filter scheduler behavior , not driver behavior - given the spec that was approved and implemented in kilo16:38
winston-di don't think we abused the term 'free space' so far16:38
jgriffithpatrickeast: xyang2 IMHO the drivers and scheduler should work together to just "do the right thing"16:38
patrickeastjgriffith: it fails before then on a if free < volume_size16:38
xyang2jgriffith: ok, no one likes the flag so far:)16:38
jungleboyjtbarron:  ++16:38
patrickeastthis line needs to be changed16:38
jgriffithpatrickeast: yeah, what I'm trying to say is that our reporting of free is wrong16:38
patrickeastor moved *after* we check thin provisioning stuff16:38
patrickeastjgriffith: oooo16:38
patrickeastok i see16:38
winston-dfree space means it's physically available space, without overprovision.16:39
jgriffithpatrickeast: free in the case of thin support should be "free * over-prov-ratio"16:39
xyang2any one want to keep the ability to preserve the volume size, please speak up16:39
patrickeastjgriffith: gotcha, later on we call that virtual_free or something16:39
xyang2otherwise, since no one likes to flag, we'll just not to preserve it16:39
jgriffithwinston-d: so that's the quirk16:39
tbarronxyang2: I'm ok with that16:39
jgriffithwinston-d: which is why I then said "ok... add an apparant/virtual/effective" or whatever "-free"16:40
jgriffithand use that instead16:40
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jgriffithhonestly if it's thin I don't necessarily know why the scheduler should care16:40
xyang2I agree the flag looks ugly.  I just want to see if anyone wants to preserve the existing behavior16:40
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hemnaok I'm back.  sorry guys, I had a preso dry run to do at the same time as our meeting.16:40
winston-djgriffith: you can create a type to explicitly ask for thin or thick16:40
DuncanTjgriffith: thick and thin on the same backend16:41
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xyang2jgriffith: so I was given a comment 6 months back when I first started working on this, that we should be conservative and assume the new volume will be consumed16:41
jgriffithwinston-d: Oh, the crazy pool nonsense let's you do both16:41
jungleboyjhemna: is back.  Back to discussion.  ;-)16:41
xyang2jgriffith: that was why it was deducted in the filter scheduler.16:41
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jgriffithwinston-d: so seems like both numbers is good to have, and you use the one that's applicable based on the volume-type being created/requested?16:42
jgriffithxyang2: thoughts?16:42
DuncanTjgriffith: You can do both without pools...16:42
jgriffithDuncanT: ok16:42
winston-djgriffith: right16:42
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jungleboyjjgriffith: ++16:42
jgriffithxyang2: winston-d so can we just fix it that way rather than flags etc?16:42
xyang2yes, some backend can support both thin and thick.16:42
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* DuncanT suggests that it looks like we can dump the existing behaviour for thin types... it is broken16:42
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xyang2I have added a extraspec for thin, thick in the cinder spec16:43
jgriffithDuncanT: let's discuss that offline16:43
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jgriffithDuncanT: oh!16:43
xyang2so driver can do it if it wants to16:43
jgriffithDuncanT: I agree with you16:43
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winston-di'm all for fix this bug without flag16:43
xyang2for the particular implementation, this is for thin actually16:43
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jgriffithxyang2: so driver reports back to scheduler free and apparant-free16:43
tbarronwinston-d: +116:43
patrickeastwinston-d: +116:43
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jungleboyjwinston-d: +116:43
jgriffithscheudler uses apparant-free for thin type scheduling and free for thick16:43
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patrickeastsounds reasonable to me16:44
jgriffithso we're all on the same page I think16:44
xyang2jgriffith: that is almost there, I don't think we need more reporting16:44
hemnaso every driver that supports both have to now report apparant-free and free ?16:44
jgriffithxyang2: we can chat more between you and I or you and winston-d16:44
DuncanTLooks like we're enthusiastically agreeing here, shall we stamp it and move on?16:44
winston-dDuncanT: +116:44
jgriffithDuncanT: yeah, but I don't think xyang2 agrees16:44
patrickeastalthough i’m wondering what the odds are of backporting that type of change vs a bug fix for my original problem16:44
xyang2jgriffith:sure, but those are already reported16:44
jgriffithwe can discuss in channel after meeting16:45
jgriffiththink it's just 'details' at this point16:45
xyang2jgriffith: that is what the provisioned_capacity is about16:45
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xyang2jgriffith: we already have that in driver stats16:45
tbarronxyang2: ++16:45
jgriffithxyang2: ok, let's talk after... but I'd say then "just use that"16:45
jgriffiththere's your fix16:45
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xyang2jgriffith: I'm fine with that16:45
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:45
openstackLaunchpad bug 1458976 in Cinder "cannot create thin provisioned volume larger than free space" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Xing Yang (xing-yang)16:46
jgriffith#topic Downgrades in new db migrations16:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Downgrades in new db migrations (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:46
jgriffithDuncanT: you'r one16:46
jgriffithpatrickeast: :)16:46
e0nei asked this question several weeks ago. DuncanT was against this solution because it makes versioning objects debugging and testing harder16:46
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e0neimo, downgrades makes our migrations more complex.16:47
DuncanTSo hopefully a quick question: Have we come to a conclusion about removing these? None of the new reviews have them16:47
e0nebut they are useful for new migrations development16:47
jgriffithDuncanT: I am not aware that we had16:47
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DuncanTOk, so nobody is going to scream at me for -1ing changes without them. Excellent16:48
patrickeasthave new changes merged with out them, or is this just reviews?16:48
e0nejgriffith, DuncanT: cross-project spec about removing downgrages migration merged16:48
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hemnae0ne, url ?16:48
jgriffithe0ne: so that's the answer then I guess16:48
DuncanTe0ne: cross project specs are advisory16:48
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winston-din other words, we don't have to follow?16:49
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e0neDuncanT: agree. fair enough16:49
hemnae0ne, thanks, have to read through that to figure out their justification.16:49
vilobhmmwill go through the spec eone16:50
bswartzwhy don't people want to support downgrades?16:50
hemnadowngrades are a bit of a PITA to do in some cases, regarding foreign key constraints, etc16:50
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ameadeesp hard with data migrations16:50
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DuncanTbswartz: They're hard to write and down get tested16:50
* bswartz mutters under his breath16:50
e0nebswartz: becouse operators don't use it in prod16:50
ameadeif not impossible16:50
hemnabswartz, the url above seems to explain their justifications.16:50
e0nehemna: +116:50
* bswartz readin...16:50
* bswartz reading...16:50
hemnathe problem is the downgrades aren't for operators16:50
hemnathey are for us to ensure our upgrades work16:51
e0nehemna: than's true16:51
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hemna"Update oslo.db to return appropriate errors when trying to perform a schema downgrade"16:52
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hemnaso if that gets implemented, our downgrades might start to puke16:52
bswartzthis sounds like laziness to me16:52
hemnaand we won't be able to not get rid of them16:52
DuncanTThe idea of returning to a db dump is just broken in the case of live upgrade though....16:52
* jungleboyj is surprised by it.16:52
bswartzdowngrades are hard to do right -- so we propose to not do downgrades16:52
hemnaI had issues w/ downgrades for the multi-attach patch16:53
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hemnabut worked through it.16:53
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hemnait seemed like a good exercise to me.16:53
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DuncanTYou didn't want to actually keep the volumes you created recently, right?16:53
bswartznobody cares if downgrades are wildly inefficient, but having them is better than not having them16:53
jgriffithbswartz: I think the real point was "they don't really work when there's data" so we shouldn't pretend they do16:53
jungleboyjbswartz: ++16:53
DuncanTOh, and the ones you deleted are back16:53
jgriffithbswartz: there's also a good question on whether they're actually useful for anything other than debug16:54
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bswartzuseful for debugging seems like a good enough reason to keep them16:54
bswartzthe real problem is if they're buggy -- the solution is to test them and fix the bugs16:54
jgriffithOk, so I think you all want to do the opposite of the all the folks on the ML16:55
jgriffiththat's ok by me16:55
DuncanTIf oslo.db is blocking them we're screwed16:55
e0neimo, re-create db procedure is faster than create downgrade+tests for debugging16:55
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jgriffithe0ne: +116:55
hemnaaccording to that spec though, oslo.db is going to be updated to not even allow them16:55
hemnaso I think the point might be moot.16:55
jgriffithe0ne: I'm not sure I see why anybody is upset by this but ok16:55
DuncanTe0ne: Have you ever tried to recreate a prod db? It's a nightmare16:56
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hemnaDuncanT, +116:56
e0neDuncanT: i'm talking bout debugging16:56
jgriffithDuncanT: have you ever tried to run our downgrades on a production DB?16:56
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jgriffithI can't imagine that it would work16:56
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patrickeastbut i thought the point was that these were not used in production?16:56
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e0nejgriffith: :)16:56
jgriffithpatrickeast: :)16:56
DuncanTjgriffith: We used them on a dev cluster, in that case they actually worked16:56
jgriffithand thus the circular-reference argument ensues16:56
hemnaDuncanT, I think there are 2 purposes for db migrations though.  My primary is during development to ensure the changes I've made actually make it in place.  In this use case, doing a complete db recreate is just as effective as a downgrade.16:56
jgriffithhemna: that's what grenade does fyi16:57
hemnathe other purpose is for live production data, and I'm not sure I ever see a use case where a customer wants to downgrade ?16:57
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jgriffithhemna: your changes are upgrades, not downgrades16:57
hemnajgriffith, agreed.16:57
jgriffithok, I think this horse it dead... not sure why we're beating it16:57
DuncanTWhat do you do if your system is busted after an upgrade?16:57
hemnaso I think I'd be ok with nuking downgrades.16:57
e0neDuncanT: revert from backup?16:57
DuncanTe0ne: Live upgrade16:58
jgriffithDuncanT: I'm not sure how/why anybody thinks the downgrade scripts are going to help int hat situation anyway?16:58
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hemnajgriffith, +116:58
DuncanTjgriffith: If they work, they do... the one time I've tried them on they worked fine16:58
hemnaif your upgrade is roasted, the downgrade most likely won't even work.16:58
e0neDuncanT: i'm not sure that if live upgrade fail, downgrade will work16:58
jgriffithDuncanT: so you've used them once in 4 years?16:58
hemnajgriffith, :)16:58
DuncanTjgriffith: Yes16:58
jgriffithDuncanT: don't every become a sales person :)16:59
bswartzhemna: the DB upgrade may be fine but the new code could have critical bugs making you want to go back to an older version16:59
* jungleboyj is enjoying that mental image16:59
DuncanTbswartz: ++16:59
jgriffithDuncanT: so honestly I don't care either way, but it sounds as if you need to take it up on the dev ML16:59
jgriffithDuncanT: with bswartz16:59
jgriffithbecause it would seem the rest of the OpenStack community has moved on and may be removing the capability form oslo.db anyhow17:00
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jungleboyjReally seems like the DB should be snapshotted before an upgrade so that it can be rolled back if a disaster occurs.17:00
jgriffithand on that note... we're out of time17:00
hemnabswartz, we have bugs ?17:00
DuncanTjgriffith: Yup, didn't realise that there was an official policy. That answers my question for now17:00
bswartzit feels to me like the devs are screwing the users with this change17:00
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jgriffithbswartz: there was never a user that came back and said they have ever used it though17:00
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winston-di've never used my17:00
DuncanTjungleboyj: You can't snapshot a live db and expect it to work later... new volumes are lost, deleted volumes are back, it is totally broken17:00
jgriffiththanks every one17:01
winston-dfire extinguisher on car, but i want to make sure it works when i need it17:01
bswartzbut it's less work for us, so it's all good </sarcasm>17:01
hemnaif operators aren't using it, then what's the point ?17:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:01
openstackMeeting ended Wed May 27 17:01:05 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:01
openstackMinutes (text):
jungleboyjDuncanT: True ... :-(17:01
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hemnabswartz, winning!17:01
jgriffithbswartz: There's a difference between 'busy' work, and 'useful' work17:01
jgriffithjust sayin :)17:01
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DuncanThemna: most operators do stop-the-world upgrades at the moment, at least on the control plane17:01
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notmynamereminder that the swift meeting is NOT in 4 minutes18:57
notmynameits' in 124 minutes18:57
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notmynameswift meeting time21:00
notmyname#startmeeting swift21:00
openstackMeeting started Wed May 27 21:00:11 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)"21:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'swift'21:00
notmynamewho's here for the swift meeting?21:00
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notmynamewelcome :-)21:00
mattoliverauYay tdasilva and mrda, 2 of my favorite peeps :)21:00
tdasilvamattoliverau: hi!21:01
* notmyname doesn't have a face with mrda21:01
notmynamemr davies?21:01
mrdanotmyname: that's me21:01
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pelusemy 4th grade math teacher?21:01
notmynamethat's scary21:01
mattoliveraunotmyname: he ate in your house in SFO :) he had a face then21:01
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mattoliverauI hope21:02
mrdaIt was required.  No face, no mexican :)21:02
notmynamewelcome to our first meeting at 2100UTC21:02
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notmynameI'm happy to see everyone here, and I hope the new meeting time works better for those of you far away from me21:02
mattoliverauyay, first sleep in meeting!21:02
notmynamethanks cschwede and acoles for staying up late21:03
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acolesno problem21:03
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pelusewow, big crew today - awesome!21:03
notmynameagenda for today:21:03
notmyname#topic summit follow-up21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "summit follow-up (Meeting topic: swift)"21:03
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notmynamethanks everyone who was at the summit. you helped make it great!21:04
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notmynameand if you weren't there, you were missed21:04
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* notmyname looks at tdasilva21:04
* cschwede nods21:04
notmynameto start with, I want to get some feedback on last wekk21:04
tdasilva:) hopefully next time21:04
notmynamewhat did you like?21:04
peluseI really liked the new format on the design side (muchbetter than Tokyo).  Favorite sessions was genomics+swift with Joe21:04
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torgomaticsoup dumplings were good ;)21:05
mattoliveraupeluse: you've already been to the tokyo summit?21:05
cschwedepeluse: you mean Paris? or time-travelling, is it getting worse?21:05
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peluseas were the margaritas21:05
tdasilvapeluse: tokyo? back from the futrue21:05
mrdaI liked meeting several of you - y'all were so friendly!21:05
pelusetokyo, hong kong. whatever21:05
acolesbetter meeting spaces21:05
peluseparis I meant, ahh never mind21:05
notmynameyeah, I liked the general format better too21:05
notmynamethe work sessions and the friday open time were very good21:05
mattoliverauYeah the workrooms were great, all they needed was a projector21:06
mrdamattoliverau: +121:06
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cschwedewas close to perfect. more chairs on the friday room would be great, and a beamer21:06
acolesmattoliverau: he didnt ask for negatives yet ;)21:06
notmynamewhat did you not like and what do you want to see changed for tokyo?21:06
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acolesprojectors in tokyo please !21:06
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peluseI guess fishbowl vs work session wasn't much different for us other than whether the rom had a projector or not...21:06
kota_more tap on the table21:06
mattoliverauwhat acoles said :)21:07
cschwedewishlist: a swift exabyte deployment keynote on monday morning :)21:07
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notmynamecschwede: oh can you talk about some prod clusters we don't know of yet? ;-)21:07
claygtorgomatic: man you didn't waste no time with simplejson21:07
hobetter network connectivity (wifi)21:07
peluseyeah so on the projector thing.  clarity on whether all rooms will have it or just fishbowls so we can plan accordingly (for tokyo)21:07
torgomaticclayg: nope :)21:07
notmynameho: ah? I didn't have any problems21:07
honotmyname: sometime it's very difficult to connect network.21:08
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notmynameok, good to know21:08
mattoliverauAside from the venue, I was impressed with how many swift talks there were, a great sign for the health of our project.21:08
notmynameI agree about the need for a projector21:08
notmynamemattoliverau: +1 keeps going up :-)21:09
mattoliverauI thought the Ops session went much better then last year, we have a bunch of ops releated feed back to work on.21:09
notmynameso I thought that the work sessions were too short. too fast of context switching I think I heard from someone21:09
notmynameyeah, the ops session was great21:09
peluse19 swift talks by my count21:09
peluse8 cinder, 8 ceph21:09
acolesnotmyname: we did seem to run over into most breaks21:09
peluse(9 cinder)21:10
notmynameyeah, having double work sessions (and potentially fewer fishbowls) might be good21:10
mattoliverauyeah, were obviously a talkative bunch :P21:10
joeljwrightnotmyname: yeah, we seemed to have to stop just as we got to the meat21:10
notmynamejoeljwright: yup, I felt that way too21:10
* clayg assumes mrda's comment about friendlyness applies to the *rest* ya'll21:10
clayg*double* work sessions!21:10
mattoliverauyou too clayg, your grumpy in a nice way :P21:11
clayglike we do container sharding twice as hard!?21:11
peluse*triple* work sessions!!21:11
slavisaI found friday discussion very useful, have more of that format21:11
claygnotmyname: if we need a projector it's not a work session21:11
cschwedewe just need to apply EC to work sessions…21:11
claygnotmyname: I just think some of the discussions benifited from the smaller rooms21:11
notmynameclayg: that's not always true. eg code reviews21:11
claygnotmyname: good point, i was wrong21:11
notmynameor ones where a picture helps everyone get on the same page21:11
peluseespecially for us blind guys21:12
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joeljwrightclayg: we could always have done with the etherpads on a screen21:12
claygjoeljwright: that's only helpful is someone doesn't know how to eatherpad (not that *I* know anyone like that)21:12
notmynameok, so what was your favorite session (tech or conference) during the week?21:12
cschwedei would like to see work sessions earlier in the week, some people already left Friday afternoon due to flights, and everyone seemed to be a little bit tired (me included) after a packed week21:13
claygya'll are right - I take back everything I said about sreens in working sessions21:13
claygbut I do still think the fishbowls were too big21:13
acoleshey joeljwright is up late too :D21:13
notmynamecschwede: oh yeah. I was super tired by friday and just enjoyed sitting and chatting with you21:13
notmynamepeluse: yeah, that one was fun21:13
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acolesclayg and i were the last ones standing on friday at 5pm21:14
notmynameon the tech side I really enjoyed the ops sessions and the other ops one (from softlayer)21:14
claygI think there's like some sort of perhaps historic reason to do the work/hack days at the end of the week?21:14
notmynameacoles: clayg: somehow that doesn't surprise me21:14
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hoi like this
joeljwrightit was quite intense doing 3 solid days of design/work sessions though21:14
mattoliverauTalk wise, I actaully enjoyed all the metric talks (donagh, cschwede, etc) nice work all21:14
notmynamein tokyo, there is 100% overlap between the conference and summit. IIRC the whole thing is 4 days long21:14
cschwedemattoliverau: thx!21:15
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notmynameany thoughts from anyone who was there for the first time?21:15
mrdathat's going to be 4 intense days21:15
notmynamemrda: no kidding21:15
notmynameanythign we can do better to prepare for the next one?21:16
peluseI guess we just drink on the fifth day then?  :)21:16
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torgomaticdrink a fifth of what now?21:16
slavisaI was there first time, thursday sessions were short ('fishbowl'?), friday discussion I found very useful21:16
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pelusei think we were pretty well prepared21:16
claygyay friday!21:16
jrichlinotmyname: my storage architect has already quoted you from the hearding cats talk several times21:16
hoslavisa: +121:17
notmynamejrichli: uh oh :-)21:17
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imkarrerwe have cats?21:17
claygjrichli: everything notmyname says is *pure gold*21:17
kota_jrichli: +121:17
jrichlithats a good thing : encouraging lots of communication with community21:17
acolesnotmyname: not thought of any better preparation ideas, i think the agenda prep on etherpad went ok21:17
slavisaI liked that people were open when approached to discuss ad hoc topics as well21:17
claygjrichli: basically most of the time the SwiftStack office only communicates in notmyname quotes21:17
mrdaimkarrer: you need cats to take pictures of cats to store pictures of cats.  Or at least I thought so.21:17
notmynameok, I feel we should move on....21:17
tdasilvawhat did you guys think of the panel you held on monday?21:18
claygnotmyname: you could just /kick me21:18
jrichliclayg: ic :-)21:18
notmynametdasilva: I thought it went well. I was really happy with how many people were there21:18
notmynameactually surprised it was so crowded21:18
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cschwedetdasilva: shameless self-praising: i think it went well, i liked it21:18
claygtdasilva: the loud guy in the middle was annoying21:18
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tdasilvaclayg: you always stand out :P21:19
notmynamecschwede: did you get anything abotu a recording of it? I haven't seen a link anywhere?21:19
mrdaI think it went well, nice to put names to faces for newbies like myself21:19
mattoliverauwe should have all wore cat tshirts as a segway into notmyname's talk21:19
pelusei liked the dudes with the accents21:19
jrichliyou all were great!21:19
cschwedenotmyname: one sec21:19
acolesclayg had a youtube link?21:19
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notmynamepeluse: yes. I loved that we have people from everywhere21:19
claygyeah once cschwede told me it was on youtube a search found it for me np21:19
notmynamecschwede: thanks!21:19
notmynameok, anything else for summit follow-up?21:20
claygbut really - it wasn't nearly as interesting as joe or donagh's stuff21:20
pelusebut the accent award has to go to Duncan on Cinder, have you hear him say "sucks"... "sooooks"21:20
acolespeluse: heh21:21
notmyname#topic summit decisions and TODOs21:21
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notmynameso there were quite a few of these21:21
notmynamefirst up, no more py2621:21
* peluse has to bolt... catch up y'all later21:21
notmynamethanks again to RAX for supporting that21:21
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torgomaticding dong, 2.6 is dead21:21
mattoliveraupeluse: o/21:22
notmynameso torgomatic has already submitted patches for it21:22
claygheh - talk about chompin' at the bit21:22
notmynameI had a patch merge today that drops the py26 tox env21:22
notmynameso that's the "official" end of it21:22
notmyname#info py26 is no longer supported in swift21:22
notmynamenext up, and as you can see at this very moment, meeting time has changed21:23
torgomaticwell, I have a hard problem that's giving me fits, so I'm doing this other stuff instead to produce the illusion of productivity ;)21:23
notmynameI suppose if you're here now, you already know that21:23
tdasilvanotmyname: what's up with py3? earlier I saw a bunch of patches re py3....21:23
notmynameyeah, I wanted to bring that up in a bit...21:23
joeljwrightdo we still need py26 in swiftclient?21:23
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notmynamejoeljwright: you tell me ;-)21:24
notmynamejoeljwright: actually, I think it's better to keep support there than in swift. but I'm also ok with dropping it21:24
joeljwrightit might cause issues21:24
notmynameI don't have any numbers on how many swiftclient users use py2621:24
claygno way swiftclient is successfully making py3 progress while still supporting py2621:24
notmynameyeah, that's a big issue (from the code side)21:25
joeljwrightI'll have a quick look at linux distros python versions21:25
joeljwrightscientific linux/centos worries me21:25
notmynameyeah, cent/rhel6 has py2621:25
claygi really didn't think swiftclient still supported py26 - but oh kay21:26
notmynameclayg: yeah, me either21:26
notmynamejoeljwright: can you look in to it and report back21:26
joeljwrightyeah np21:26
joeljwrightlast I loked py26 was still a swiftclient gate21:26
swifterdarrellnotmyname: clayg: it was a year or two ago, but we had someone with CentOS 5.x systems needing to run python-swiftclient (where 2.6 is the *new* python for the distro version)21:27
notmynameI'm hoping to have some midcycle/hackathon details shortly (in a matter of days), so stay alert for that21:27
notmynameswifterdarrell: wow21:27
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swifterdarrellnotmyname: clayg: and RHEL/CentOS 6.x still have some legs on 'em, right?21:27
claygjoeljwright: yeah i guess i was wrong, i see py26, py27 and py33 checks on python-swiftclient - crazy21:27
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notmynameok, next up for post-summit TODOs...21:28
notmynameI've gone through the etherpads and consolidated some todo items from them21:28
notmynamethen I took those and put most of them onto the priority reviews page21:28
notmynameso the high-level bullets are "stuff people are working on"21:29
notmynameand that's a big list21:29
notmynamemy next step is to consolidate more of the TODOs and get them summarized onto a wiki page (or somewhere) and put some relative priority to them21:29
tdasilvathis is awesome: "python-swiftclient improvements: lots"21:30
mattoliveraulol, yup21:30
notmynamethere was a really good list put together in that working session21:30
notmynamestuff that's annoying, stuff that needs improvement, stuff that's just broken21:30
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joeljwrightjust little things like auth, docs, interface…21:31
notmynameso question for everyone, how do you want to see all the info? are you looking for whatever I come up with? or do you have strong feelings on how it should be done?21:31
notmynameie all the ideas/todos/etc with some priority21:31
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acolesnotmyname: i think that list is useful21:32
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acolescould be a frame for adding priority reveiws as they come and go?21:32
jrichliI am open to whatever: I just want to be able to add a few things I never got to add to the etherpads21:32
notmynameyeah, i'm thinking of consolidating it with the ideas wiki page. just need to communicate some difference between "wouldn't it be nice..." and "this is being done"21:33
notmynamebut yeah, definitely having the high-level picture of stuff going on and decided is a great way to frame the priority reviews. I agree acoles21:33
mattoliverauI like how priority reviews in gerret are starred by you in the dashboard. and haveing a list with priorities and ideas in the wiki works well in conjunction21:33
notmynamethe last piece is the triaging and tagging of the launchpad bugs. after getting this list together, i'm going to start working on the LP bug list21:34
acolesnotmyname: can I add fast-post and migrating keystoneauth to policy.json (ho) ?21:34
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notmynameacoles: yes21:34
hoacoles: thanks!21:35
notmynamemy goal is to have a good picture of what people are talking about, working on, and needs to be done so that everyone can see it21:35
claygacoles: so much things21:35
notmynameyeah, I didn't get several things that were discussed on friday21:36
tdasilvanotmyname: should that list be constantly updated by the people working on those things or are you going to update it?21:36
clayggoodness we left of part power too - so not going to get to all of this21:36
notmynametdasilva: everyone can, I'll mostly do it21:36
notmynametdasilva: kinda like it works now :-)21:36
notmynameclayg: I left that off intentionally. the conclusion last week was "interesting but not really a problem anyone has today"21:36
mattoliverauwe should link to specs on the wiki when there is one too, cause then people can see ideas that have already  have had some motion, even if stalled so they know how to start work (if there interested).21:37
claygnotmyname: wfm21:37
notmynamewe should land the spec, but nothing to be done yet, at least not before the other stuff21:37
notmynamespeaking of....we gotta get better about specs21:37
notmynameif an author and reviewer agree on something in a spec, land it!21:37
claygnotmyname: how did we not brainstorm on this while we were in summit?21:37
notmynameclayg: which part?21:38
notmynamewhich means that specs should start small and then get bigger as they get fleshed out21:38
acolesclayg: they all left early remember? ;)21:38
claygnotmyname: how to make specs more lightweight21:38
notmynameclayg: epic fail?21:38
claygI think the whole idea of specs may have been half-cocked21:38
notmynameit's an expirament21:39
claygon one hand I really like that people can say "what about this idea" before having to write some code21:39
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notmynameit's to facilitate communication. let's change it as needed and use it as helpful. it's not a thing that must or must not be done21:39
claygnotmyname: yeah, i'm just curious if we can point to spec that was like "wow, a++ would buy from again"21:40
torgomatic"spec contained live bobcat"21:40
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notmynamefor now, I'd like to continue specs. let's give it another month and see where we are21:41
notmynameand if I'm not bugging people about them, then bug me abotu that :-)21:41
notmyname(clayg is good about bugging me)21:41
mattoliveraunotmyname: thanks for working on the priority reviews/ideas page, more visibility will be awesome.21:42
acolesi think they are useful to see what people are thinking and what new features are on radar but agree we need to get away from them being never-landed21:42
notmynameacoles: yeah, that's my thought too21:42
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cschwedemaybe land a small spec with a rough idea first, and then work on the details?21:43
* acoles knows thats partly my fault21:43
mattoliverauDo we need a swift spec rule page on the wiki? how our process works, in_progress vs. complete and land fast?21:43
notmynamecschwede: yeah, I think that's the idea we've got written down.21:43
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claygmattoliverau: I think there's something like that *IN* the specs repo?21:43
claygmattoliverau: could probably be updated refined and elaborated on21:44
mattoliverauyeah, but put it somewhere where new contributors will look.21:44
claygmattoliverau: the truth was when we started with specs a) we didn't know what we were doing b) no one seemed to be doing anything we liked that we could take hints from21:44
cschwedenotmyname: i thought of something even more simple thant currently stated in the readme21:44
jrichliI think the issue is that incompleteness should be addressed, but should not prevent acceptance of what is there21:44
notmynameI think it's because we're all generally _really_ picky about patches that go in to swift, so we dont' like landing patches anywhere that feel "not finished"21:44
cschwedeso no technical implementation details in the beginning to speed up accept/deny21:45
mattoliverauclayg: I agree, I just want to make it clear so when we tell someone to write a spec there is something to point too. but yeah, lets start with an updated README21:45
claygnotmyname: I do think we could clean up the spec template to get rid of a *bunch* of junk and focus the conversation more on the use case - operations implications - interation with other features - stuff that matters to us21:45
notmynamecschwede: ah interesting21:45
notmynameclayg: liek what cschwede is saying? don't do technical design in the spec21:45
cschwedeat least not in the first commit21:46
notmynameI like that idea. avoids the waterfall design trap of specs (/me feels other projects' specs are tending that way)21:46
torgomaticit's not like a spec makes us legally bound to implement it or anything... if the spec looks good but it turns out that any possible implementation is too horrible to contemplate, then we just won't do it21:46
tdasilvanotmyname, cschwede: just not sure that is the main issue...21:46
tdasilvaso specs do make nice progressions, it's just that they sit in review for a loooong time21:47
cschwedetdasilva: well, i think sometimes the idea of a proposed spec is ok, but the technical details take a huge amount of time21:47
tdasilvamost specs do start pretty small, no?21:47
claygtorgomatic: yeah we should write something down on the process to back away from in-progress spec slowly just so we have an escape hatch clearly marked21:47
clayg... even if we never use it21:47
mattoliverauI think noone lands them cause people look for specs in review rather then in there landed location21:47
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claygcschwede: yeah I think avoiding implementation minutia is a *great* way get some agreement21:48
acolesthe symlinks spec is a good example of some but not complete implementation detail (no offence to torgomatic because thats fine) but we can say 'nice idea lets do it'21:48
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notmynameok, so to summarize what i'm hearing, specs take way too long to land, tech details up front cause it to slow down, discoverability of landed specs may be an issue21:49
mattoliverauyup, so all that are communication issues.. which we can solve :)21:50
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acolesso where there is a landed spec, link to it from priority review page section21:51
clayg#info mattoliverau to solve specs21:51
acolesdid someone already say that?21:51
notmynameacoles: I think that's a good idea. and mattoliverau implied it, but you said it21:51
tdasilvaif it's in review, it should probably be linked to, right?21:52
mattoliverauclayg: me and my big mouth :P21:52
notmynametdasilva: we do have specs right at the top of the review dashboards21:52
acolesmattoliverau: turn your abandoner bot on its head and give us an auto-lander-bot ;D21:52
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claygacoles: this spec will automatically be merged in 5... 4...21:52
mattoliverauacoles: lol, auto-lander.. I could do that :P21:52
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tdasilvacan I somehow sneak in swift patches?21:53
notmynamemattoliverau: can you add the landed specs (in the in_progress) dir to the top of the priority reviews wiki? could you do that today?21:53
mattoliverauif there is a +1 and sitting there for > 1 week21:53
notmynameno auto-landing yet :-)21:53
mattoliveraunotmyname: sure21:53
notmynamemattoliverau: thanks21:53
notmynameok, anything else to bring up in the meeting this week?21:53
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notmynameok, then let's call it21:54
mattoliverauThanks everyone for agreeing to move the meeting forward.. I'm much more awake21:54
notmynameI can tell. you're much more talkative21:54
acolesclayg: mattoliverau : it would keep us reviewers on our toes :)21:54
notmynameand cschwede is quieter ;-)21:54
mattoliverauand apparently volenteer for much more :P21:54
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acolesmattoliverau: right!21:55
notmynamethanks for coming today, and thanks for working on swift21:55
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openstackMeeting ended Wed May 27 21:55:18 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:55
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Shamailhi all, let's give barrett a few minutes to join...23:00
MeganRHi Shamail23:01
ShamailHi MeganR, geoffarnold!23:01
bear_fieldHello everyone, André from Blue Box23:01
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cloudrancherHi Shamail. Forgive my clumsiness  Jay from IBM23:01
ShamailHey bear_field, cloudrancher23:02
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ShamailLet's wait until 4:05P PT to officially kick off23:02
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geoffarnoldNice thing about an IRC meeting is that I can leave the window open without noise from the street showing up on WebEx audio23:03
Shamaillol true23:03
Gavin_Pratt_HPHey guys23:03
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ShamailHi Gavin_Pratt_HP23:04
Shamailhi sarob23:04
sarobSorry I'm late23:04
sarobStart now?23:04
sarob#startmeeting product-team23:04
ShamailSure. I was going to wait until 4:05P23:04
openstackMeeting started Wed May 27 23:04:31 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sarob. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.23:04
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: product-team)"23:04
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'product_team'23:04
sarobJust on the wire :)23:04
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ShamailBefore we begin23:05
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sarob#topic summit feedback23:05
*** openstack changes topic to "summit feedback (Meeting topic: product-team)"23:05
ShamailI'd like to extend a warm welcome to all of the new people that have joined IRC today.  It was great to see you participate last week and join the bi-weekly meeting23:05
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Shamailhi barrett23:06
barrettHi Shamail - Sorry I'm late!23:06
barrettWho else is on?23:06
ShamailPlease continue to be active on IRC and ML!  We need as much help as we can get.23:06
ShamailSorry to derail sarob... let's proceedd23:06
ShamailNP barrett23:06
RockygWe all are!!!23:06
Shamailbarrett: The usual suspects + a lot more :)23:07
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barrettWhere are we in the agenda?23:07
ShamailThe first item23:08
sarobJust started23:08
sarobSummit recap23:08
barrettCan everyone access the summary in the Google folder?23:08
cloudrancherI'm good23:09
ShamailI can.23:09
MeganRI can23:09
bear_fieldi can23:09
barrettIs there anyone on the meeting who wasn't at the Summit?23:10
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barrettAny questions on the Sessions or Feedback we got on Roadmap or Process?23:11
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sarobgood progress from everyone i spoke with23:13
sarobvery positive23:13
ShamailThe response seemed very positive to the concept but also a lot of "let's see the details" type comments.23:13
jimhaselmaierI thought the roadmap views were OUTSTANDING23:13
Rockygbut also a lot of "where has this group been the last 4 years"23:14
jimhaselmaierAnd I heard good feedback from others on them.23:14
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Shamaileveryone should pat themselves on the back and then get back to work >:]23:14
sarobi thought i was working :(23:14
RockygAlso, a lot of people are looking to address gaps through product wg use cases then populating the developers to address them23:14
barrettMy take-away was people want us to help consolidate input to the technical planning work; but want us to align with the current processes and timing is important.23:15
Rockygsarob - a small voice in the wilderness often goes unheard by the masses23:15
barrettRockyG: +123:15
cloudrancherThe feedback seemed good, but I sensed a bit of concern from some people that the product team might be trying to usurp some PTL power23:15
barrettRockyG: I got that message consistently from PTLs23:15
Shamailbarrett: +1, I think changes can be made but we should make them/ask for them unless absolutely necessary23:15
Shamailshould not*23:16
geoffarnoldThe Users Group committee meeting was interesting. Small turnout. Interested in Product WG, but lots of "so what should I do net?"23:16
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cloudrancherThe cross product coordination seemed to be a really useful service23:16
barrettGeoffarnold: I think we've got a work plan to set that out, but probably need to add a few things to make sure we cover all interested parties23:17
cloudrancherfrom the product team to the project teams23:17
sarobi think at this point, actions will decide for the ptls if we are help or hindrance23:17
Shamailsarob: +123:17
barrettCloudrancher: +1; Think there is also the desire from project team to project team23:17
geoffarnoldI think we should make sure that our company reps on the Users Group are plugged in. (Unless that's us.)23:17
cloudrancherright - that's why I brought up the cross product thing - seems to be underserverd23:17
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sarobwe have a pretty good idea on how to move forward23:17
barrettsarob +123:17
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cloudrancherok. great23:17
sarobcloudrancher: +123:17
Rockygalso, there is a *great* need for a cloud service provider wg to address their needs23:17
cloudrancheryou guys know the personalities23:17
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barrettRockyG: Is there someone who you think will champion this?23:18
RockygI know a couple of people, I think.  I think we can get HP, Rackspace, likely DreamHost and a few others onboard.23:18
barrett RockyG: Are you working on that?23:19
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Rockygsure.  I'll take that up.23:19
jimhaselmaierWhen we say "Cross project coordination" - is there a specific example we use to get an idea what that is?23:19
sarobi can help with the dh person23:19
RockygOnce started, it will power itself23:20
sarobjimhaselmaier: there is a cross project team23:20
Rockygthanks, sarob23:20
RockygThat's one I didn't have23:20
RockygGot one in India, too.23:20
sarobthey meet once a week23:21
barrettJimhaselmaier: The example I heard was that when there is a cross project capability, like Versioned Object,it would be useful to for Projects to know the status of Oslo, since it's a gate for other projects to implement23:21
sarobmostly ptls23:21
cloudrancherjimhaselmaier - the example I heard was on the shared volume capability that Cinder did most of the work but the Nova work fell out of Kilo23:21
jimhaselmaierOK.  Thx.23:21
cloudranchermore of a visibility issue is seemed23:22
barrettJimhasselmaier: And if Oslo is trending behind, then the other projects can prioritize other features/bugs/etc higher to make an impact in the release.23:22
barrettcloundrancher: +123:22
ShamailI think some of the next steps we will discuss will change the meaning of cross project work for us, but that part of the agenda is yet to come.23:22
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Shamailoverall, there is a group responsible for cross project work but a lot of it is focused on functionality and not cross project use-cases.23:22
barrettSpeaking of which, are we ready to move on?23:23
ShamailI believe so.23:23
RockygShamail: ++23:23
barrett#topic Work Plan Review23:23
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sarob#topic Work Plan Review23:24
*** openstack changes topic to "Work Plan Review (Meeting topic: product-team)"23:24
sarobi can take a hint23:24
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sarobsomebody borked the root meeting page23:24
sarobtrying to find the meeting page23:25
ShamailIt worked for me23:25
Gavin_Pratt_HPme too :)23:25
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barrettI think we want to walk through the Action Plan and talk about the use case selection approach for this cycle - walk before we run23:26
sarobaction plan23:26
Shamailbarrett: shall we give some context about overall direction between L and M?23:26
sarobi have no sockets :(23:26
jimhaselmaierThat would help23:26
barrettShamail: Pls go ahead23:26
sarobgo for it23:27
ShamailSo, as everyone knows, after our midcycle we decided to focus on athering PTL feedback and eventually presenting it in the form of a roadmap23:27
Shamailthe form we presented was not the final one but it got our intentions across and, more importantly, let us socialize the concept with the PTLs23:27
Shamailthis work was essential and helped us gain awareness23:27
Shamailhowever, while that work was focus on aggregating feedback... most of the community wants to see how the other side of product WG will work23:28
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Shamailnamely, how can we help get requirements (in project, cross project) from WGs to the project teams23:28
ShamailJust like we focus on aggregating feedback in our last phase23:29
Shamailwe believe that doing the other task of collecting requirements and working with project teams to start building a requirements pipeline is the next step needed for our group23:29
Shamailto establish some experience with23:29
ShamailThis is why we are asking for "use case selection", we want to try and send a few requirements/use cases through the top of the funnel to the project teams using a standard workflow23:30
Shamailback to you barrett!23:30
Shamail(please let us know if you have questions)23:30
jimhaselmaierGreat summary.....and very clear.23:30
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barrettThe plan is to establish a repo, and ask people across the community to use our template and post their use cases23:31
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bear_fieldgreat overview. thanks Shamail23:31
geoffarnoldHave we identified a liaison person in each WG that will work with Product? Enterprise is obvious(?), but the others....?23:32
RockygOne of the things we may see (I hope) is that the devs will break out the work into specs and determine short term work that is possible, and what the longer view work would look like23:32
geoffarnoldIdeally each WG meeting agenda will include a status check on Product interaction23:32
Rockyggeoffarnold: ++23:32
jimhaselmaierWill there be one repo?  Or one per WG?  Or one per project?  Or something else?23:33
barrettGeoffArnold - We didn't establish WG Liasons yet or Project liasons.23:33
geoffarnoldProject liaisons are probably in the gift of the PTLs23:33
RockygI would think one repo for use cases that might break down into WG directories23:33
barrettWe'd like the use cases posted by 6/14 and then will use this meeting on 6/24 to vote and identify the top 5.23:33
bear_fieldRockyg: +123:34
Shamailbarrett: +123:34
geoffarnoldThe feedback from Nova was interesting - they're moving to a real backlog model that should fit well23:34
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RockygThis would allow us to pull cross wg use cases/requirements into either another dir, or the top dir23:34
jimhaselmaierRockyg:  +123:34
ShamailFor this specific phase, let's build out the repo to support use-cases from across the WGs... however this is an experiment (to check/refine our workflow) so it will not be an all encompassing run through23:34
barrettRockyG: I wonder about separating the use cases - we're hoping that there's a lot of common requirements across them. Is it easier to get people to look across them by having them all in 1 or in separate directories?23:34
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barrettShamail: +1, try an approach, learn, evolve23:35
Shamailbarrett and Rockyg, I would prefer them in one directory but have a tag identifying which group they came from23:35
geoffarnoldWho owns each use case? Probably a WG, or a WG subteam23:35
geoffarnoldDomain expertise FTW23:35
barrettgeoffarnold: I think individuals own Use Cases23:35
RockygShamail: , barrett +1 start that way.  Once we get lots, we'll need to further categorize23:35
Shamailit is useful data to know which WG submitted it but having them in one directory is useful that way we can just add other groups to the same requirement/use-case23:36
Shamailadding a WG to a use-case basically becomes a +1 from them23:36
barrettWe can add a field in the use case template for the name of the work group and individual23:36
RockygSo, WG might be added to template23:36
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jimhaselmaierWhile I massively agree with do it fast to try it and evolve - tags for the source (which WG) as well as impacted projects might be helpful.23:36
barrettRockyG: +123:36
RockygAnd if more than one wg has same usecase, they just add that wg to the existing list of wgs in the use case23:37
ShamailRockyg: +123:37
jimhaselmaierRockyg:  +123:37
Rockygjimhaselmaier: +123:37
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bear_fieldRockyg: +123:37
barrettjimhaselmaier: In many cases I don't think the use case author knows all of the projects it impacts. There is a section in the template to capture what they do know23:37
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jimhaselmaierbarrett:  +123:38
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Shamailgeoffarnold: we might not have liasons for this phase, but we should make sure each WG knows that the window for submitting use-cases is open23:38
sarobim not sure i follow the workflow23:38
RockygWhich means, that we should schedule cross wg reviews to capture other possible users23:38
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ShamailDoes anyone want to own drafting an email we can use to notify each WG?23:38
Shamailsarob: which worklfow comment?23:38
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cloudrancherIs there a place for versioning use cases to identify past changes and decisions. Sorry I'm not familiar with the options available23:38
sarobone dir for all use cases23:38
saroball wg23:38
geoffarnoldI just want to make sure that each WG is actively thinking "how's our Product pipeline going?"23:38
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barrettRockyG: Once we get our repo set, I wonder if we should assign people from this group to attend the other WG meetings and give an overview?23:38
sarobis that what y'all agreeing to?23:39
Rockygsarob: to start with23:39
barrettsarob: yes23:39
jimhaselmaierI'm happy to draft an email explaining the process.23:39
sarobokay, im good then23:39
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sarobso my high level idea on tags23:39
bear_fieldbarrett: i think that's critical23:39
jimhaselmaier(process re:  submitting use cases.......why and how.)23:39
sarobwould be the same23:39
Rockygsarob:  I heard your voice ring in my head with that "okay" statement23:39
sarobone dir with hundreds of use cases23:40
Shamailsarob: We were thinking that all use-cases could be in a single directory and the template would contain a "WG:" section... instead of entering a use-case per WG in a separate folder23:40
barrettJimhaselmaier: If you could send a draft to our ML for feedback that would be great!23:40
Shamailsarob: this way we can just add multiple WGs to the same use-case if they have a common interest23:40
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sarobShamail: ah, right23:40
Shamailjimhaselmaier: thanks! look forward to the draft23:40
sarobgot it23:40
sarobgood starting point23:40
barrettSarob: Having watched the use case development prococess on WTE and Telco WG, I think that would be a great problem to have...though unlikely23:40
jimhaselmaierbarret:  I most definitely can.  However I think we need the repo set up and finalized how we want people to use it.23:41
Shamailjimhaselmaier: +123:41
bear_fieldjimhaselmaier: +123:41
barrettjimhaselmaier: +123:41
ShamailRockyg and sarob, I think you own getting the repo created.23:41
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ShamailNo pressue.23:41
RockygSo, how does a wg or person get to the merge point with a use case?23:42
barrettRockyG and Sarob are driving the repo setup and template validation for reviewing and comments23:42
sarobRockyg: lets confer right after this meeting for 523:42
Rockygsarob: will do23:42
barrettRockyG: Don't understand your question23:42
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Rockyguser submits usecase for review.  It needs comments to flesh out, then somehow it gets merged and voila!  It appears in the git repository23:43
sarobbarrett: we will need a few people to have core reviewer rights23:43
RockygIt won't appear until merged, which means  +2s and +workflow23:43
sarobbarrett: we need to set the standard to when the use case gets merged23:43
Shamailbarrett: yeah, but is the repo our own or will we be sharing with cross project?23:43
sarobShamail: sharing23:44
Shamailsarob: you were going to build the tox tests too right?23:44
sarobthats part of use creating the dir23:44
sarobShamail: right23:44
barrettRockyG/Sarob: Can you work this out as part of your action item or do you need more discussion or help?23:44
Shamailbarrett: +1, let's come up with a plan and share it via ML.23:45
sarobShamail: good plan23:45
Rockyglots of it, yeah.  We can circle back next week for acl stuff if it's not answered23:45
barrettI/m concerned that creating Core Reviewers could be an issue and delay23:45
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barrettRockyG: +123:46
sarobbarrett: could be23:46
Shamailbarrett: +1, but I think we will need them unless the cross project team is fine with +2 and workflow23:46
RockygWe need a dashboard, too, so we can see reviews of usecases in flight23:46
jimhaselmaierWhat's the goal of approving?  That the use case is understandable?  Or that it's important enough to work on?  Something else?23:46
sarobbarrett: if it is a big blocker, then we may need to consider a seperate repo23:46
ShamailRockyg: I think that will be useful but can probably wait past the 6/24 deadline23:46
jimhaselmaierI'm asking a bit rhetorically.23:46
sarobbarrett: id rather not if we can help it23:46
jimhaselmaierWe just need to be sure.23:46
Shamailjimhaselmaier: making sure it is understandable and has the necessary fields populated23:47
sarobjimhaselmaier: id like the bar to merge be very low23:47
geoffarnold"core reviewers" isd OpenStack culture code for "quality process"23:47
barrettSo the short term Action Items beyond the repo is the sarob: +123:47
Rockygjimhaselmaier: turning a draft use case into a more polished one23:47
Shamailsarob: +1, but we have to make sure that we don't omit information... there is a line between low bar and missing info23:47
sarobShamail: right23:47
bear_fieldShamail: +1 prioritization should be separate from use case merge23:47
sarobbear_field: +123:48
barrettbear_field: +123:48
jimhaselmaierbear_field:  +123:48
Shamailbear_field: Prioritization is a topic we are deferring for now23:48
Shamailfor this initial run23:48
sarobid like the cores to review if there is extreme use case over lap and if the content is complete23:48
sarobthats it23:48
Shamailsarob: care to do an #action for you and Rockyg23:48
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Rockygnooo mr. billllllll!!!!!!!23:49
sarob#action sarob, rockyg post product-team repo plan to ML23:49
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Shamailbarrett: we have 10 min left, how do you want to proceed with the remaining time?23:50
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jimhaselmaier#action jimhaselmaier to draft email and send to ML after repo plan established.23:50
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Shamailonly sarob wields the power :D23:50
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Rockygmra ha ha!23:51
Shamailbarrett, are you here?23:51
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barrettWalk through the upcoming Action Items?23:52
ShamailWhat should we cover?  We will run out of time soon.23:52
Shamailbarrett: +123:52
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barrettInternal Communications: Develop Terminology, backgrounder and updatewiki, Community Socialization Plan (user groups, mid-cycle meet-ups)- Owner Shamail and Hugh23:52
barrettDue 6/1023:52
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barrettWe talked about the repo: That's owned by Rocky and Sean due 6/1023:53
* sarob crushing pressure23:53
barrettRecruit new members: Goal is to have 80% of theOpenStack contributions represented in this team. IBM, VMWare, SUSE - Owners: Shamail and Carol - due 6/1423:54
barrettShamail: We should talk about our plan for this one23:54
Shamailbarrett: +123:54
Shamaili'll email you23:54
barrettShamail: Thanks23:54
Rockygrackspace?  barrett:  talk to Van about someone from there.23:54
ShamailHugh is from Rackspace23:55
barrettRockyG: Good point!23:55
RockygShamail: oh, good!23:55
geoffarnoldbarrett: +1 - and add Red Hat, Mirantis, if 80% is the target23:55
barrettShamail: Even better point: :-)23:55
sarob5 mins23:56
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barrettEveryone has the action to create and post their use cases between 6/10 - 6/14. Even though the repo is WIP, we can all start working on this now.23:56
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barrettThink that's the upcoming Action Items23:56
bear_fieldwhere can we review use cases until repo is ready?23:56
ShamailPS: If any of these action items are interesting to you.  Please chime in... anyone can help with any items that feel strongly about23:56
Shamailthat they*23:57
barrettWe can put them in the google directory here:
barrettSame area where I posted the rest of the info for this meeting23:57
ShamailThanks barrett, great summary!  Lots to do... the fun will begin after we have collected use-cases23:58
barrettSarob: Can you #link that?23:58
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ShamailCan I make a brief, un-related, but relevant to this audience type of an audience comment?23:58
barrettSarob: Thanks23:58
barrettShamail: go for it23:59
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ShamailYou may have seen the message from Egle regarding DefCore on our mailing list... I think as product management function representatives of our orgs, we should also distribute information internally23:59
sarob1 min23:59
Shamailto that extend, please see
Shamailshare this message inside your orgs so people can become familiar with defcore/interop23:59
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