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| JRobinson__ | Hello All, APAC Docs meeting is set to begin in 10 minutes | 00:21 |
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| loquacities | hello everyone! | 00:28 |
| darrenc | hello! | 00:29 |
| JRobinson__ | Hello hello | 00:29 |
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| loquacities | alright, let's get this party started then | 00:29 |
| loquacities | #startmeeting docteam | 00:30 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 27 00:30:27 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is loquacities. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 00:30 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 00:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 00:30 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'docteam' | 00:30 |
| loquacities | who's here? | 00:30 |
| JRobinson__ | Checking in | 00:30 |
| berndbausch | good morning | 00:30 |
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| darrenc | me | 00:30 |
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| loquacities | hi berndbausch good to see you :) | 00:31 |
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| loquacities | adahms: here? | 00:31 |
| berndbausch | I am afraid I will just lurk | 00:32 |
| loquacities | lurking is just fine :) | 00:32 |
| katomo | Hi | 00:32 |
| asettle | yo | 00:32 |
| loquacities | hi katomo! | 00:32 |
| loquacities | we don't seem to have any of the apac red hatters ... | 00:33 |
| asettle | dmacpher you around friend? :) | 00:33 |
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| dmacpher | asettle, hi | 00:34 |
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| loquacities | ok, looks like there might be a conflict for those guys again | 00:34 |
| loquacities | let's get started | 00:35 |
| loquacities | oh, hi dmacpher :) | 00:35 |
| dmacpher | loquacities, hi there | 00:35 |
| loquacities | #topic Action items from the last meeting | 00:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 00:35 | |
| loquacities | i don't think we had anything there, since we've missed a couple of weeks | 00:35 |
| JRobinson__ | One item - I was going to check on who was running US docs meeting | 00:35 |
| loquacities | oh, it's shilla | 00:36 |
| JRobinson__ | So mark that one itme as completed :) | 00:36 |
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| loquacities | \o/ | 00:36 |
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| loquacities | #topic Notes from Design Summit | 00:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Notes from Design Summit (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 00:36 | |
| loquacities | #info RST conversion: Install Guide, Cloud Admin Guide, HA Guide | 00:36 |
| loquacities | these are the books that we determined to be next in line for conversion | 00:36 |
| JRobinson__ | Good to hear | 00:37 |
| darrenc | great | 00:37 |
| loquacities | install guide will be the defcore projects only, and we'll start the conversion once we've branched for kilo | 00:37 |
| loquacities | which should be soon | 00:37 |
| loquacities | karin is going to be the point person for that book, as the install guide speciality team lead | 00:37 |
| loquacities | cloud admin guide will be the other main conversion project | 00:38 |
| loquacities | the user guide speciality team will be handling that one | 00:38 |
| darrenc | cool | 00:38 |
| JRobinson__ | Is there any etherpad notes to look over for this one? | 00:38 |
| loquacities | the HA guide has already been started, meg mcroberts had a sprint on that at the summit | 00:38 |
| loquacities | JRobinson__: yep | 00:38 |
| loquacities | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Documentation__Info_Architecture_1 | 00:39 |
| loquacities | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Documentation__Blueprint_Work_Session | 00:39 |
| JRobinson__ | Thanks loquacities | 00:39 |
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| loquacities | #info all the etherpads can be found here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Design_Summit/Liberty/Etherpads#Documentation | 00:39 |
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| loquacities | #info Lana will send out a summary of those to the ML Real Soon Now | 00:40 |
| loquacities | #info Much discussion about IA. User Guides will be rejiggered for Liberty. | 00:40 |
| loquacities | no major changes on IA at this point, other than the user guides | 00:40 |
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| loquacities | but we did have a lot of really productive discussion about how we move to an EPPO-style layout, and organising guides by service instead of audience | 00:41 |
| loquacities | we want to try and move away from audience-based organisation as much as possible | 00:41 |
| loquacities | #info Lana to spend time on blueprints/old bugs this week and next | 00:41 |
| loquacities | so be aware that things will be moving around a bit for a little while | 00:41 |
| loquacities | also: help gladly received :) | 00:41 |
| loquacities | #info Plan for helping out devs with docs in their repo | 00:42 |
| loquacities | this was sparked by the ironic dev team | 00:42 |
| JRobinson__ | Okay, older bug hunting time | 00:42 |
| loquacities | the general idea being that we can provide assistance (through the speciality teams) to devs groups to clean up docs in the dev repos | 00:42 |
| loquacities | this way, the devs get the help they need to clean up their own docs, but the maintenance burden remains with them, and not us | 00:43 |
| loquacities | there's also discussion about tweaking the toolchain so that they can publish stuff in their dev repos to look like formal openstack documentation (with our theme, etc) | 00:43 |
| loquacities | any questions on any of that before we move on? | 00:43 |
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| berndbausch | what does "assistance" mean_? | 00:44 |
| JRobinson__ | Are the docs in the developer repos in separate files or added with #comments in the coding? | 00:44 |
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| loquacities | in theory, what would happen is the PTL of the dev project would approach us, and we would then ask the appropriate speciality team to take on the project | 00:44 |
| berndbausch | tx | 00:45 |
| loquacities | how much work is involved, etc, would be on a case-by-case basis | 00:45 |
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| loquacities | JRobinson__: these are the docs on doc.openstack/developer | 00:45 |
| loquacities | #link http://docs.openstack.org/developer/openstack-projects.html | 00:45 |
| loquacities | they're usually RST, but they live in the dev repo, not openstack-manuals | 00:46 |
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| JRobinson__ | loquacities, thank you! | 00:46 |
| loquacities | np | 00:46 |
| loquacities | ok, shall we move on? | 00:46 |
| JRobinson__ | that all makes sense :) | 00:46 |
| loquacities | great! | 00:47 |
| loquacities | we can discuss this more as we go on, anyway | 00:47 |
| loquacities | for now it's all in theory :) | 00:47 |
| loquacities | #topic Liberty specs in review | 00:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Liberty specs in review (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 00:47 | |
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| loquacities | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/docs-specs,n,z | 00:47 |
| loquacities | the only two in flight right now are these ones: | 00:47 |
| adahms | Hello, hello - sorry loquacities | 00:47 |
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| loquacities | #link https://review.openstack.org/183138 (Install Guide RST conversion) | 00:47 |
| loquacities | hi adahms! | 00:47 |
| adahms | Meeting heavy day today | 00:47 |
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| loquacities | yeah, it happens :) | 00:47 |
| loquacities | so this blueprint is the one karin drafted during summit | 00:48 |
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| loquacities | be sure to check that out, it covers the install guide changes and RST conversion | 00:48 |
| loquacities | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/177934/ (API work) | 00:48 |
| loquacities | this is anne's one for the API work | 00:48 |
| loquacities | there's some interesting changes coming there, too | 00:48 |
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| loquacities | the other outstanding specs right now are training guides | 00:49 |
| loquacities | but bear in mind that now that we have a liberty plan, all the specs will be starting to push through | 00:49 |
| loquacities | any questions on specs? | 00:49 |
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| JRobinson__ | Seems to be clear | 00:50 |
| loquacities | ok | 00:50 |
| loquacities | #topic Specialty teams | 00:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specialty teams (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 00:51 | |
| loquacities | not a lot of action from the speciality teams because summit | 00:51 |
| loquacities | but here's the current state of play: | 00:51 |
| loquacities | #info HA Guide - Sprint during design summit. RST outline now available. | 00:51 |
| loquacities | #info Install Guides - Preparing blueprint/spec for RST conversion | 00:51 |
| loquacities | #info User Guides - Preparing for RST conversion of the Cloud Admin Guide | 00:51 |
| loquacities | #info Security Guide - No update, but needs love. Lana to touch base with Nathaniel. | 00:52 |
| loquacities | #info API docs - Please look at the new spec | 00:52 |
| loquacities | #info Networking Guide - Test & review. Blueprint/spec to be created for Liberty work. | 00:52 |
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| loquacities | anything i missed on speciality teams? | 00:52 |
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| katomo | Ops Guide? | 00:54 |
| loquacities | ah, good point | 00:54 |
| JRobinson__ | I think that's all for the user guide team. Moving to RST cloud admin is the next step | 00:54 |
| loquacities | i don't have an update, but it needs some love | 00:54 |
| loquacities | it also doesn't currently fall into a specific speciality team, so that probably requires some thought | 00:55 |
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| loquacities | ideally, all books would have a speciality team dedicated to them | 00:55 |
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| loquacities | there was also some discussion about removing the upgrades section from the ops guide and putting it somewhere else (TBD where) | 00:56 |
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| loquacities | ok, i think that's all for that side of things | 00:56 |
| loquacities | #topic APAC Meetups | 00:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "APAC Meetups (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 00:57 | |
| loquacities | #info Planning for an APAC OpenStack meet up in June, ping asettle & adahms | 00:57 |
| loquacities | one thing summit taught me is that the arch guide is definitely recognised as needing work | 00:57 |
| adahms | Heya | 00:57 |
| adahms | We spoke about this during the last meeting, but there is going to be a lot on during June - July on our side | 00:57 |
| loquacities | so the swarm is definitely welcomed by the larger docs community :) | 00:57 |
| asettle | loquacities well that's good | 00:57 |
| adahms | Yeah, that'll be cool | 00:57 |
| loquacities | oops, i've mixed my agenda items | 00:58 |
| loquacities | #info Planning for APAC Docs Swarm on 13-14 August, ping Suyog | 00:58 |
| asettle | loquacities it's all planned out from my side | 00:58 |
| loquacities | asettle: great! | 00:58 |
| loquacities | so, do we need to pick a different time for the meetup then? | 00:58 |
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| JRobinson__ | sorry, forgot that the swarm was covered and only reminders are needed closer to the date itself | 00:58 |
| loquacities | i think the original plan was to have one soon after summit? | 00:59 |
| adahms | Yes, but I just don't think it is going to be feasible at this stage | 00:59 |
| loquacities | JRobinson__: i'd like to keep it on the agenda, if that's ok | 00:59 |
| asettle | IT was, however, Red hat was unable to come :( | 00:59 |
| loquacities | right, ok | 00:59 |
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| JRobinson__ | Wednesday turned out to be a meeting intense day | 00:59 |
| JRobinson__ | (Wednesday June 3) | 00:59 |
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| loquacities | ok, maybe we should leave it up to adahms to find a time that works for the RH writers? | 01:00 |
| loquacities | i think monday or friday is usually easiest for my team | 01:00 |
| asettle | Usually, yep :) | 01:00 |
| JRobinson__ | loquacities, I can't see any issues with keeping it there as long as meeting managers are okay with the brief ping once in a while | 01:00 |
| loquacities | as JRobinson__ said, wednesdays get meeting-heavy | 01:00 |
| adahms | Understood | 01:00 |
| loquacities | JRobinson__: yeah, i just don't want it dropping off the radar | 01:00 |
| JRobinson__ | makes sense, yes | 01:00 |
| loquacities | ok, adahms can i add an action item for you? | 01:01 |
| adahms | Sure | 01:01 |
| loquacities | #action adahms to find a suitable openstack meetup time soonish | 01:01 |
| loquacities | thanks :) | 01:01 |
| loquacities | #topic Meeting time | 01:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Meeting time (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 01:02 | |
| loquacities | #info Now on alternating weeks, OpenStack ical is being updated today | 01:02 |
| loquacities | #info Shilla is running the US meeting | 01:02 |
| loquacities | any questions on the meeting administrivia? | 01:02 |
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| loquacities | ok, that's it for formal agenda items for today | 01:03 |
| loquacities | #topic Open discussion | 01:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 01:04 | |
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| loquacities | alright, thanks everyone | 01:05 |
| berndbausch | cheers | 01:05 |
| loquacities | o/ | 01:05 |
| darrenc | thanks! | 01:05 |
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| JRobinson__ | thank you o/ | 01:05 |
| loquacities | #endmeeting | 01:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 01:05 | |
| katomo | thanks | 01:05 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 27 01:05:40 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 01:05 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2015/docteam.2015-05-27-00.30.html | 01:05 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2015/docteam.2015-05-27-00.30.txt | 01:05 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2015/docteam.2015-05-27-00.30.log.html | 01:05 |
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| stevebaker | #startmeeting heat | 07:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 27 07:01:01 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevebaker. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 07:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 07:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)" | 07:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'heat' | 07:01 |
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| stevebaker | #topic rollcall | 07:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)" | 07:01 | |
| tspatzier | hi all | 07:01 |
| pas-ha | o/ | 07:01 |
| prazumovsky | hi all | 07:01 |
| stevebaker | welcome, the rest of the world | 07:01 |
| dgonzalez | hi | 07:01 |
| ramishra | hi all | 07:01 |
| shardy | o/ | 07:01 |
| Qiming | o/ | 07:01 |
| tlashchova_ | hi | 07:01 |
| stevebaker | I see some new nicks in the room tonight | 07:02 |
| stevebaker | #topic Adding items to agenda | 07:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Adding items to agenda (Meeting topic: heat)" | 07:02 | |
| stevebaker | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda#Agenda_.282015-05-27_0700_UTC.29 | 07:02 |
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| stevebaker | this may end up being a shortish meeting, if we're all feeling a bit post-summit | 07:02 |
| kairat_kushaev | o/ | 07:02 |
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| skraynev_ | o/ | 07:03 |
| stevebaker | anything else for the agenda> | 07:03 |
| stevebaker | ? | 07:03 |
| stevebaker | #topic heat reviews | 07:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "heat reviews (Meeting topic: heat)" | 07:03 | |
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| stevebaker | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/heat-reviews | 07:03 |
| prazumovsky | >only item about semantics of support status parameters | 07:04 |
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| stevebaker | prazumovsky: yep, I pushed that one down | 07:04 |
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| prazumovsky | OK | 07:04 |
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| stevebaker | So here is the page I'll be curating https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/heat-reviews | 07:04 |
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| stevebaker | feel free to add your own changes, or changes you think are important, and I'll keep it so that there are no more than 10 reviews so that heat-core have something manageable to put their attention on | 07:05 |
| skraynev_ | stevebaker: ok | 07:06 |
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| stevebaker | hey, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/154977/ merged. we'll need to find something else important but not convergence | 07:06 |
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| shardy | Where are we with fixing the memory usage issues? | 07:07 |
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| stevebaker | sirushti: do you think you could refresh https://review.openstack.org/#/c/154977/ ? | 07:07 |
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| inc0 | uhh...you mean for example parent stack inspection for example? | 07:07 |
| sirushti | stevebaker, sure, will do | 07:07 |
| stevebaker | shardy: thats a point, I'll add my 2 for that | 07:07 |
| Qiming | anyone has signed up on the client changes? | 07:08 |
| stevebaker | Qiming: which ones? | 07:09 |
| Qiming | outputs as not-pretty-tables, stevebaker | 07:10 |
| inc0 | https://github.com/openstack/heat/blob/master/heat/engine/stack.py#L299 I blame this for memory usage | 07:10 |
| stevebaker | oh, here is an important client change, it fixes the broken gate https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185834/ | 07:10 |
| stevebaker | inc0: my changes fix that | 07:10 |
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| stevebaker | Qiming: I think ryansb was going to convert his existing openstackclient work to an in-tree plugin | 07:11 |
| inc0 | stevebaker, thing is, this is only run in validation | 07:11 |
| inc0 | from what I know | 07:11 |
| inc0 | so before stack.store() | 07:11 |
| stevebaker | inc0: and create, and update. so I think the resources will be in db for the latter times it is called | 07:12 |
| stevebaker | looks like the heatclient sessionclient change might be almost ready to land <- prazumovsky | 07:14 |
| prazumovsky | yes, I just wait https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185834/ merging | 07:14 |
| prazumovsky | *it | 07:14 |
| inc0 | stevebaker, https://github.com/openstack/heat/blob/master/heat/engine/resources/stack_resource.py#L226 this is only place its called | 07:15 |
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| stevebaker | inc0: which is called by _child_parsed_template, which is called by create_with_template and update_with_template | 07:16 |
| inc0 | and we can't put db call there, because it will be called before stack.store() | 07:16 |
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| stevebaker | inc0: so its not validate only (and its being called too often, but that is a separate issue) | 07:16 |
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| inc0 | fair enough, I guess we should dig into that more, but yeah, db call will help a lot | 07:17 |
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| stevebaker | inc0: I just want something that is appropriate to backport to kilo, then we should completely rethink the approach | 07:17 |
| inc0 | yeah...whole logic of this fucntion seems...overengineered to say the least | 07:18 |
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| inc0 | I mean recursively call total resources just to check if it doesn't exceed one variable in config? | 07:18 |
| stevebaker | are there any heat-specs burning hot right now? | 07:18 |
| inc0 | but that's for another discussion. | 07:18 |
| inc0 | I'll be cooking spec for random default parameter | 07:19 |
| inc0 | I guess its not burning hot, but it touches hot;) | 07:19 |
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| stevebaker | ok, I'll update the heat-specs section later | 07:20 |
| stevebaker | moving on | 07:20 |
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| stevebaker | #topic parameters for SupportStatus for displaying current status and from which object is supported | 07:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "parameters for SupportStatus for displaying current status and from which object is supported (Meeting topic: heat)" | 07:20 | |
| prazumovsky | OK | 07:20 |
| prazumovsky | Now we have one parameter version which displays version of the current status | 07:21 |
| stevebaker | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/heat/tree/heat/engine/support.py | 07:21 |
| prazumovsky | I want to add new parameter since which will means since which release this feature is available | 07:22 |
| inc0 | ... or when it was deprecated?:) | 07:22 |
| stevebaker | prazumovsky: like a history of support statuses? | 07:22 |
| prazumovsky | yeah | 07:22 |
| prazumovsky | but 'since' is more suitable for current status, e.g. status.DEPRECATED since ... and version of object is ... | 07:23 |
| ramishra | can we not provide multiple support statuses, probably a list ex. SUPPORTED, version DEPRECATED version? | 07:23 |
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| Qiming | +1 to 'since' | 07:23 |
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| prazumovsky | So | 07:24 |
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| prazumovsky | since for current statuses | 07:24 |
| stevebaker | prazumovsky: to me, 'version' is what since means | 07:24 |
| inc0 | can we bump version without changing status? | 07:25 |
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| prazumovsky | stevebaker: you mean version for current statuses and since for dispaying 'available since'? | 07:25 |
| stevebaker | inc0: why would we do that? | 07:25 |
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| inc0 | I don't know, I'm asking - if we can't then I agree - version == since | 07:25 |
| inc0 | thing is, what does version mean anyway if we change it *only* on status change? | 07:26 |
| prazumovsky | inc0: I think, we can bump version only if status changed, else for what | 07:26 |
| stevebaker | afaik, the version never changes after it is set (at least it hasn't to my knowledge), so it seems to already be behaving like a 'since' | 07:26 |
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| inc0 | prazumovsky, then every version bump is essentialy "since" right? | 07:27 |
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| stevebaker | prazumovsky: since aside, it sounds like you would like a list of status objects to communicate the resource's history, which seems useful | 07:28 |
| ramishra | +1 | 07:28 |
| Qiming | SUPPORTED since 2014.1, DEPRECATED since 2015.1 | 07:28 |
| prazumovsky | stevebaker: it's sounds reasonable | 07:29 |
| stevebaker | if we didn't want to make every status attribute accept a list of SupportStatus, we could always add a SupportStatus.previous_status, and they just accumulate like a singly linked list | 07:29 |
| stevebaker | with the newest status at the root | 07:29 |
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| prazumovsky | stevebaker: that's what I like | 07:30 |
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| stevebaker | prazumovsky: sure, +1 | 07:31 |
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| prazumovsky | OK, now it's clear for me, what to do, thanks:) | 07:31 |
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| stevebaker | prazumovsky: this is probably worthy of a short spec | 07:32 |
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| inc0 | please, add an use case as well there | 07:32 |
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| prazumovsky | there is a spec https://review.openstack.org/#/c/153235/ ehich can contains this | 07:32 |
| prazumovsky | *which | 07:32 |
| prazumovsky | because this changes relates to deprecation improvements | 07:33 |
| stevebaker | deprecating improvements? I thought we wanted to do the opposite ;) | 07:33 |
| stevebaker | (dad joke) | 07:33 |
| prazumovsky | hah | 07:34 |
| stevebaker | prazumovsky: i've put that spec on the heat-reviews page | 07:34 |
| inc0 | but in specs it's just done in regards to docs... | 07:34 |
| prazumovsky | stevebaker: OK | 07:34 |
| stevebaker | #topic Open discussion | 07:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)" | 07:34 | |
| stevebaker | inc0: I think SupportStatus is only used for docs generation? | 07:35 |
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| Qiming | stevebaker, it would be good to show support_status in resource-type-list too | 07:35 |
| inc0 | maybe...I honestly don't know:) | 07:35 |
| prazumovsky | QIming: I work on it | 07:36 |
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| stevebaker | Qiming: yeah, +1 if we don't already. there may be a spec for filtering by status too | 07:36 |
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| Qiming | prazumovsky, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/147761/ | 07:36 |
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| inc0 | one question from me - regarding total_resources | 07:37 |
| prazumovsky | Qiming: thank you, I don't know about it | 07:37 |
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| inc0 | can we think of a way to count these without recursive counts? (I'm talking about not-yet-in-database case) | 07:37 |
| inc0 | or wheter or not we *actually* need cfg.CONF.max_resources_per_stack in regards of nested stacks? | 07:38 |
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| inc0 | I mean once we decoupled these in kilo...what's point of this config? | 07:38 |
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| stevebaker | inc0: its harder now that nested stacks are created via rpc calls. In the old days all stacks were in memory anyway | 07:38 |
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| inc0 | I know, but that's why this config existed in the first place right? | 07:39 |
| inc0 | to limit memory consumption if user wants huge stack | 07:39 |
| inc0 | now we decoupled nested stacks, so its only a problem with huge single stack | 07:39 |
| inc0 | and these are way easyier to count... | 07:40 |
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| shardy | inc0: well, or a huge tree of nested stacks on a single heat-engine.. | 07:40 |
| stevebaker | inc0: you have a point, since they're really separate stacks now we may not need to limit by the whole stack tree, and I think we already have a total stack quota I think | 07:40 |
| inc0 | anyone uses single heat engine? and should we care about such people if they're asking themselves for problems anyway? | 07:40 |
| shardy | but yeah, maybe just a limit on stacks, and resources per individual stack is enough, then rely on underlying services to enforce their own quotas | 07:41 |
| shardy | inc0: well, TripleO does in many cases.. | 07:41 |
| inc0 | fair enough | 07:41 |
| inc0 | but in tripleo total_resources is irrelevant anyway right? | 07:41 |
| shardy | which is the use-case which exposed the excessive memory consumption problems recently | 07:41 |
| inc0 | validation I mean | 07:41 |
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| shardy | inc0: yeah, keep creating resources until your seed OOM kills something :\ | 07:42 |
| inc0 | ironically, validation takes most of memory, not actual execution | 07:42 |
| shardy | But you're right, maybe we should make enforcing the limits optional | 07:42 |
| stevebaker | the irony was not lost on us | 07:42 |
| shardy | and turn them off for the tripleo seed | 07:42 |
| inc0 | my question is - do we need that kind of validation at all;) | 07:43 |
| therve | inc0, GOOD question | 07:43 |
| stevebaker | shardy: that may not be backportable though, I may prefer intrepreting max_resources_per_stack to not include nested stack resources | 07:43 |
| inc0 | it was relevant in tenat cloud without decouple nested | 07:43 |
| therve | Frankly I feel that validation mostly exists because services provide poor error feedback | 07:44 |
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| shardy | stevebaker: I was thinking a new value to an existing config option, e.g max_resources_per_stack = False or something | 07:44 |
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| shardy | that probably would be backportable, as it's not adding a new option | 07:44 |
| stevebaker | shardy: but if the default remains the same then it still remains broken for everyone else | 07:45 |
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| inc0 | we can revise if it's required at all, and for now keep this optional | 07:45 |
| stevebaker | shardy: and it probably has to remain the same for a backport | 07:45 |
| inc0 | and later on possibly deprecate whole mechanism | 07:45 |
| inc0 | ? | 07:45 |
| shardy | stevebaker: true, but not everyone is creating trees 50 stacks deep | 07:46 |
| shardy | and the option would be available to everyone | 07:46 |
| shardy | stevebaker: if there's a way to fix the validation for the default case, obviously we should do that though :) | 07:46 |
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| stevebaker | thankfully the root_stack_id change which has landed has merits on its own | 07:47 |
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| inc0 | soo...spec for applying "false" as possible value for max_resources_for_stack? | 07:48 |
| inc0 | or just point out 0 == unlimited? | 07:48 |
| inc0 | or -1 ;) | 07:49 |
| stevebaker | shardy, inc0, therve, etc: could you put your thoughts in the review and poke the USians when they're up? I don't mind throwing away that work | 07:49 |
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| shardy | stevebaker: sure, will do | 07:49 |
| therve | Yep | 07:49 |
| inc0 | ofc | 07:49 |
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| stevebaker | should we finish off now? any other business? | 07:50 |
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| stevebaker | #endmeeting | 07:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 07:51 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 27 07:51:02 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 07:51 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2015/heat.2015-05-27-07.01.html | 07:51 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2015/heat.2015-05-27-07.01.txt | 07:51 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2015/heat.2015-05-27-07.01.log.html | 07:51 |
| stevebaker | thanks for coming everyone | 07:51 |
| stevebaker | see you next fortnight | 07:51 |
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| xuhaiwei_ | hi, stevebaker | 07:51 |
| stevebaker | xuhaiwei_: hi | 07:52 |
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| xuhaiwei_ | we have discussed in the summit , about this spec https://review.openstack.org/#/c/168298/ | 07:52 |
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| xuhaiwei_ | can you give some advices to fullfill the use case? | 07:53 |
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| stevebaker | xuhaiwei_: I think you should expand on "User wants to upload several script files" with a more specific example, including what happens during stack-create, stack-update | 07:55 |
| stevebaker | xuhaiwei_: It could be that a slightly modified OS::Heat::SoftwareComponent would meet your needs | 07:56 |
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| xuhaiwei_ | ok, there will be another meeting here? | 07:57 |
| xuhaiwei_ | stevebaker, I will try to use softwareComponent, thanks | 07:58 |
| stevebaker | xuhaiwei_: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda | 07:58 |
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| stevebaker | xuhaiwei_: or just talk in #heat | 07:58 |
| xuhaiwei_ | stevebaker, ok | 07:59 |
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| xuhaiwei_ | stevebaker, maybe talk with you later, see you | 08:00 |
| stevebaker | xuhaiwei_: \o | 08:00 |
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| jgriffith | dulek_home: DuncanT hemna xyang1 jungleboyj e0ne et all | 16:00 |
| xyang1 | Hi | 16:00 |
| thangp | o/ | 16:00 |
| cebruns | Hi | 16:00 |
| dulek_home | Hello. | 16:00 |
| Swanson | Hello. | 16:00 |
| flip214 | jgriffith: "et all", bah | 16:00 |
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| e0ne | hi | 16:00 |
| patrickeast | hi | 16:00 |
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| deepakcs | hi all | 16:00 |
| BharatK | hi | 16:00 |
| eharney | hi | 16:00 |
| flip214 | oh, and it would be "et al", BTW. | 16:00 |
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| jgriffith | #startmeeting cinder | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 27 16:00:40 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:00 | |
| DuncanT | hi | 16:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'cinder' | 16:00 |
| opencompute | hi | 16:00 |
| tbarron | hi | 16:00 |
| kmartin | o/ | 16:00 |
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| Yogi2 | hi | 16:00 |
| jgriffith | We've got a pretty full agenda so let's get on with it | 16:00 |
| dannywilson | hi | 16:01 |
| e0ne | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CinderMeetings#Next_meeting | 16:01 |
| jgriffith | #link https://goo.gl/XG062E | 16:01 |
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| jgriffith | e0ne: :) thanks | 16:01 |
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| jgriffith | reminder: please put your name next to your proposed topic | 16:01 |
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| jgriffith | #topic Live-Migration changes | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Live-Migration changes (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:01 | |
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| jgriffith | hemna: I'm assumign this is you? | 16:02 |
| jgriffith | assuming | 16:02 |
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| jgriffith | hemna: ? | 16:02 |
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| jgriffith | giving hemna 30 seconds, then moving on and we'll come back | 16:02 |
| jgriffith | 15 more seconds... | 16:03 |
| geguileor | Hi | 16:03 |
| dulek_home | Can we get back to it at the end? Guys from my team are in a traffic jam and will be able to discuss helping with Nova stuff in 30 minutes. | 16:03 |
| jgriffith | Ok, we'll come back *if* we have time | 16:03 |
| dulek_home | :) | 16:03 |
| kmartin | hemna, is presenting to SNIA right now | 16:03 |
| jgriffith | #topic Cinder internal tenant | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cinder internal tenant (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:03 | |
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| jgriffith | patrickeast: you're up | 16:03 |
| patrickeast | hi | 16:03 |
| patrickeast | so this got brought up a bit at the summit | 16:03 |
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| patrickeast | for fixing the hidden volumes problem | 16:03 |
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| patrickeast | i have some mention of it in this spec https://review.openstack.org/#/c/182520/ | 16:04 |
| mtanino | hi | 16:04 |
| patrickeast | for the image cache | 16:04 |
| patrickeast | after talking with some folks over the last couple days i wanted to bring it up at a meeting and make sure there wasn’t any strong resistance | 16:04 |
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| DuncanT | Seems like a good idea to me | 16:04 |
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| patrickeast | and it looks like there is a review up proposing a hidden flag to volumes, so i think we need to maybe make a decision on which direction we go | 16:04 |
| patrickeast | and unify all the various efforts on that approach | 16:05 |
| patrickeast | questions? comments? concerns? | 16:05 |
| * DuncanT prefers a special tenant to the hidden flag | 16:05 | |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: so I need to read your spec more carefully, but i mentioned the other day another spin | 16:05 |
| jungleboyj | o/ Here now. Sorry. | 16:05 |
| tbarron | internal tenant seems potentially useful for lots of stuff | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: "special tenant" and public snapshots | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: but I know the public snapshots is contentious | 16:06 |
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| e0ne | DuncanT: +1 for special tenant | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | partially because of my own statements :) | 16:06 |
| patrickeast | jgriffith: hehe yea id rather not tie special tenants to doing public snapshots, more like if we go down that road we could use the special tenant | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | Anybody object to internal tenant? | 16:06 |
| tbarron | patrickeast: +1 | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: well... the problem IMO is your spec is actually to "solve" the image-caching issue | 16:07 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: not "sholud we do special tenant" | 16:07 |
| geguileor | +1 to special tenant | 16:07 |
| patrickeast | jgriffith: yea i was wondering about that… maybe we should split it out? | 16:07 |
| jgriffith | I think we're all agreed on the tenant idea so that's great | 16:08 |
| xyang2 | special tenant can be used for temporary volume, temp snapshot, and image cache. fine with me | 16:08 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: might be good to split it out | 16:08 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: for the sake of clarity and "argument" :) | 16:08 |
| patrickeast | sounds good | 16:08 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: +1 | 16:08 |
| jungleboyj | Sounds like something that can be used by multiple people. | 16:08 |
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| jungleboyj | xyang2: ++ | 16:08 |
| e0ne | xyang2: +1 | 16:08 |
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| patrickeast | i’ll make a new bp and spec that we can use as a dependency for the other ones that would need it | 16:08 |
| jgriffith | We need to be carefule though | 16:08 |
| rajinir | Like the idea of special internal tenant. Seems like it can be of multi use | 16:09 |
| jgriffith | and VERY specific on it's usage | 16:09 |
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| jgriffith | It's easy for something like this to become HORRIBLY abused!!!! | 16:09 |
| patrickeast | jgriffith: +1 | 16:09 |
| cebruns | jgriffith: +1 | 16:09 |
| jgriffith | including circumventing things like quotas in public clouds etc | 16:09 |
| kmartin | agree, the special tenant would be useful | 16:09 |
| patrickeast | we are shooting for just the right amount of abuse | 16:09 |
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| jgriffith | or private for that matter | 16:09 |
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| jgriffith | so let's clarify... | 16:09 |
| jgriffith | I propse we're very specific and it's NOT just a "special" tenant | 16:09 |
| ameade | o/ | 16:10 |
| jgriffith | which can be anything anybody wants it to be | 16:10 |
| scottda | swapsudoexit | 16:10 |
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| jgriffith | in this case I suggest it's something like "cinder-image" tenant | 16:10 |
| DuncanT | +1 | 16:10 |
| jgriffith | and it's specifically for image caching and management, nothing more | 16:10 |
| patrickeast | oh that brings up another thing i wanted some feedback on, should we have multiple of these? one for image caching, or for migration helping, etc? | 16:11 |
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| e0ne | agree about caching | 16:11 |
| jgriffith | if other valid use cases come up we can adjust and deal with them | 16:11 |
| e0ne | jgriffith: what type of management do you mean? | 16:11 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: I also need it for non-disruptive backup | 16:11 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: so that's the rat-hole I'm hoping to avoid here | 16:11 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: vincent needs it for migration | 16:11 |
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| jgriffith | e0ne: so my use-case is something like this; | 16:11 |
| patrickeast | jgriffith: yea, but we already have 3(?) use cases wanting it | 16:11 |
| geguileor | If we create specific users we'll end up with a bunch of them | 16:11 |
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| jgriffith | image-tenant creates bootable volumes from glance images on a periodic of some sort | 16:11 |
| e0ne | we need to specify all use-cases in spec | 16:12 |
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| jgriffith | provides public snapshot or volume to "other" tenants | 16:12 |
| DuncanT | Specific users makes figuring out WTF is going on easier | 16:12 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: +1 | 16:12 |
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| jgriffith | DuncanT: so this could turn into a SERIOUS mess if we're not very careful and explicit | 16:12 |
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| jgriffith | start throwing around migration blah blah blah and we're pretty well sunk IMO | 16:12 |
| DuncanT | Indeed, it is already starting to feel like a new nail... | 16:13 |
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| jgriffith | IMO the image-tenant is just a sort of "glance proxy" to start with | 16:13 |
| jgriffith | that's all | 16:13 |
| cFouts | o/ | 16:13 |
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| patrickeast | i agree 100% that we don’t want to mis-use this, but if we don’t then we end up with a hidden flag on the volume table *and* special tenants | 16:13 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: ? | 16:14 |
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| patrickeast | we can’t just exclude migrations or whatever else | 16:14 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: sure we can | 16:14 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: I don't see what migrations has to do with the topic? | 16:14 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: To be clear, you don't want to have a general user, you want a specific user for a specific purpose. | 16:14 |
| patrickeast | right, but then we get https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185857/ | 16:14 |
| jungleboyj | We can start with image-tenant and then expand. | 16:14 |
| patrickeast | the whole point of the special tenant is to avoid a hidden flag on the volume table | 16:14 |
| * flip214 was reminded to act as timekeeper again.... so, ¼ of the time is gone. | 16:15 | |
| patrickeast | thats why it came up in the first place | 16:15 |
| patrickeast | maybe we can discuss after the meeting more | 16:15 |
| patrickeast | i don’t want to hog all of the time | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: there... that's fixed | 16:15 |
| e0ne | jungleboyj: looks like we neet to start use trusts from the keystone api v3 | 16:15 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith, DuncanT: I do need to create temp volume and snapshot for the non disruptive backup case, so either I need a hidden flag or a cinder tenant for it. I thought at the summit, cinder tenant was the preferred approach | 16:15 |
| e0ne | to make more thin user management | 16:15 |
| jungleboyj | xyang2: ++ | 16:16 |
| geguileor | Yes cinder tenant was preferred because it didn't meant changes to Quota | 16:16 |
| geguileor | among other things | 16:16 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: So that may in fact be something that this idea expands to, although I don't understand why it has to be "hidden" | 16:16 |
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| xyang2 | jgriffith: it is a temp snapshot, we don't want user to do operation on it | 16:17 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: so online backup requires creation of a snapshot... no problem IMO | 16:17 |
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| jgriffith | xyang2: well, keep in mind users can't really *do* anything with snapshots anyway :) | 16:17 |
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| DuncanT | jgriffith: It's the vol from snap for lagacy drivers that is the issue | 16:17 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: and frankly what would they *do* | 16:17 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: The snap is fine | 16:17 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: But we need to create a hidden volume | 16:17 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: so mark it as R/O | 16:18 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith, DuncanT: they can still list it. is it okay | 16:18 |
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| jgriffith | frankly I don't care if they can list it | 16:18 |
| xyang2 | DuncanT: ya, hidden volume is another issue | 16:18 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: quota? Them deleting it in the middle of the operation? | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: ummm | 16:18 |
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| jgriffith | DuncanT: quota = deal with it | 16:18 |
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| jgriffith | DuncanT: deleting in the middle of an operation we check that sort of thing in the API all the time | 16:19 |
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| jungleboyj | jgriffith: I think you do care. People get confused if they see volumes show up that they didn't create. | 16:19 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: if !available raise | 16:19 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: Volumes coming out of nowhere was shown to be a very confusing UI for migrations, I don't think it is going to get any less confusing | 16:19 |
| jgriffith | Ok | 16:19 |
| xyang2 | DuncanT, jgriffith: right, quota is the other issue that why we thought cinder tenant is preferred | 16:19 |
| jungleboyj | Maybe it was DuncanT that really cared, but I think we should care. | 16:19 |
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| tbarron | jungleboyj: +1 | 16:19 |
| jgriffith | I'll leave it to you all to sort out then, but I suspect you're not going to like the end result :( | 16:19 |
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| e0ne | jungleboyj: good point | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: and no, I don't care on that particular item | 16:20 |
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| jungleboyj | jgriffith: Ok, must have been DuncanT | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: people get "more" confused when there's invisible things happening and stuff fails and they have zero idea why | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | Ok... | 16:20 |
| DuncanT | So we see what it looks like in code having a backup tenant too... it won't be used for any driver that is updated to be able to backup snaps directly, so it is hopefully temporaty | 16:21 |
| DuncanT | temporary | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | so it sounds like everybody is on board with "special" tenants | 16:21 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: what if it is visible to admin only, just not to regular tenant? | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | I'll let everybody else argue about where/how they can be used | 16:21 |
| patrickeast | ok so… heres my proposal, i’ll write up a spec for the special tenant and put as many of these use cases on there as i can | 16:21 |
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| jungleboyj | xyang2: ++ We need the tenants for that though, right? | 16:21 |
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| patrickeast | we can hash out which of them are ‘valid’ or not in the spec review | 16:21 |
| xyang2 | jungleboyj: yes | 16:21 |
| jungleboyj | patrickeast: __ | 16:21 |
| geguileor | patrickeast: +1 | 16:21 |
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| jungleboyj | patrickeast: ++ | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: sure, maybe that works | 16:22 |
| jgriffith | ok | 16:22 |
| jgriffith | so patrickeast did we at least cover the main points for you to move forward? | 16:22 |
| patrickeast | jgriffith: haha yea, i think everyone seems to be on board | 16:22 |
| jgriffith | cool | 16:22 |
| patrickeast | just a matter of figuring out exactly how we use them | 16:22 |
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| jgriffith | :) | 16:22 |
| jgriffith | #topic hin provisioning volume capacity consideration in filter scheduler | 16:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "hin provisioning volume capacity consideration in filter scheduler (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:22 | |
| jgriffith | that's "thin" by the way :) | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | not hin | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: you're up | 16:23 |
| xyang2 | is winston here? | 16:23 |
| xyang2 | ok | 16:23 |
| xyang2 | this was brought up by patrickeast | 16:23 |
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| xyang2 | so currently we deduct the size of the new volume for thin provisioning from free capacity | 16:23 |
| tbarron | xyang2: winston said he had a conflict today | 16:23 |
| xyang2 | this is the conservative approach we started with in the design | 16:24 |
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| xyang2 | the concern is for thin volume, it is not consumed yet when it is first provisioned | 16:24 |
| xyang2 | the proposed patch allows two ways of handling this | 16:24 |
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| xyang2 | a flag was added, if it is true, we deduct the size of the new volume | 16:25 |
| xyang2 | if it is false, we don't deduct it | 16:25 |
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| xyang2 | anyone has an opinion on this | 16:25 |
| patrickeast | xyang2: so i think there are actually two things here, my bug originally wasn’t even for that issue (and now our conversation yesterday makes more sense) | 16:25 |
| xyang2 | ? | 16:25 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: well I do of cource :) | 16:25 |
| jgriffith | course | 16:25 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: go ahead | 16:25 |
| patrickeast | the bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/cinder/+bug/1458976 is that you can create 100 2TB devices on a 100TB backend but not 1 200TB volume | 16:26 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1458976 in Cinder "cannot create thin provisioned volume larger than free space" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Xing Yang (xing-yang) | 16:26 |
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| patrickeast | then there is the issue of as you create thin volumes | 16:26 |
| patrickeast | it eats up ‘free’ space | 16:26 |
| patrickeast | until the next stats update | 16:26 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: well, I've always been of the opinion that we need to quit pontificating and screwing around report capacities | 16:26 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: that means "available" which use the over-prov ratio you implemented | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | in the case of thin | 16:27 |
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| jgriffith | and distinguish between allocated and provisioned | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | I've propsed this no less than 1/2 a dozen times in the last 18 months | 16:27 |
| guitarzan | that's a crazy bug report :) | 16:27 |
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| guitarzan | thin provisioning is a crazy pit I'm glad I'm not jumping into :) | 16:28 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: sorry, I don't think I completely follow you:(. what is your suggestion? by the way, our definition may be a little different | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: I'm sure our definitions are different which has always been the problem | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: everybody wants "their" definition and won't compromise on anything | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: so my proposal is and has been just report the same way the reference LVM thin driver does | 16:29 |
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| jgriffith | xyang2: allocated vs actual | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: and calculate deltas to report and schedulel placement | 16:29 |
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| jgriffith | xyang2: so if you have thin provisioning and a backend with 100G of free space | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | it reports free-space + (free-space * over-prov-ratio) | 16:30 |
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| jgriffith | and free-space = physical - allocated | 16:31 |
| jgriffith | allocated is "actual" blocks used | 16:31 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: make sense? | 16:31 |
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| bswartz | jgriffith: the term "allocated" is problematic because it doesn't match the definition of allocated_space in cinder -- I understand what you mean though | 16:32 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: so "allocated" means actually used capacity. I think that is how free is calculated currently, just the term is not the same | 16:32 |
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| patrickeast | so to make sure i understand if you had 100G of free space, and a 2.0 ratio, you could place a 200G thin volume, right? | 16:32 |
| patrickeast | with what you described | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: correct | 16:33 |
| patrickeast | perfect | 16:33 |
| patrickeast | thats what my bug report is for… we can’t do that today | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: yeah, so the other suggestion for the "name" conflict was apparant or effective | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: specifically for the scheduler | 16:33 |
| * flip214 mentions that half of the time is gone. | 16:34 | |
| bswartz | I think using different terms in different places is what of what leads to the madness and misunderstandings | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | flip214: thanks for the reminder sir | 16:34 |
| flip214 | jgriffith: no problem. glad to be of service! | 16:35 |
| xyang2 | bswartz, jgriffith: do we really want to start discuss the terms now? I added a whole section on terms in the cinder spec | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: well, for an end user allocated should not take into account anything to do with thin | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: thanks! You saved me | 16:35 |
| tbarron | xyang2: +1 | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | and my blood pressure | 16:35 |
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| bswartz | I just wanted to point out that we don't want to argue about what the terms should mean, we want whatever the terms are to be crisply defined so there is no confusion | 16:35 |
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| xyang2 | jgriffith: ok, I don't think I explained the problem clearly. | 16:36 |
| patrickeast | so… terms and formulas aside, i think the original topic isn’t for *how* we calculate the virtual space | 16:36 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: there's definitely a bug that reported by patrick | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: agreed | 16:36 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: and I want to fix it. | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: yes, and that's FANTASTIC | 16:36 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: the question is whether we want to also preserve the existing behavior | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: I'm proposing that we fix it by having the drivers report capacities in a way that isn't stupid | 16:36 |
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| jgriffith | xyang2: which frankly right now they kinda are | 16:37 |
| patrickeast | the bug is a flaw in how we do the filter logic, not the virtual space | 16:37 |
| patrickeast | or at least i see it as a flaw | 16:37 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: it is not the driver here actually. the filter scheduler deduct the volume size | 16:37 |
| winston-d | patrickeast: +1 | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: it can be addressed on either side | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: and the scheduler may be the right place | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: xyang2 my thing was I didn't like the fix and adding a flag etc | 16:38 |
| patrickeast | jgriffith: nono, the problem is that the filter doesn’t ever get to the virtual capacity stuff as-is | 16:38 |
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| tbarron | the issue is about filter scheduler behavior , not driver behavior - given the spec that was approved and implemented in kilo | 16:38 |
| winston-d | i don't think we abused the term 'free space' so far | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: xyang2 IMHO the drivers and scheduler should work together to just "do the right thing" | 16:38 |
| patrickeast | jgriffith: it fails before then on a if free < volume_size | 16:38 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: ok, no one likes the flag so far:) | 16:38 |
| jungleboyj | tbarron: ++ | 16:38 |
| patrickeast | this line needs to be changed | 16:38 |
| patrickeast | https://github.com/openstack/cinder/blob/master/cinder/scheduler/filters/capacity_filter.py#L83 | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: yeah, what I'm trying to say is that our reporting of free is wrong | 16:38 |
| patrickeast | or moved *after* we check thin provisioning stuff | 16:38 |
| patrickeast | jgriffith: oooo | 16:38 |
| patrickeast | ok i see | 16:38 |
| winston-d | free space means it's physically available space, without overprovision. | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: free in the case of thin support should be "free * over-prov-ratio" | 16:39 |
| xyang2 | any one want to keep the ability to preserve the volume size, please speak up | 16:39 |
| patrickeast | jgriffith: gotcha, later on we call that virtual_free or something | 16:39 |
| xyang2 | otherwise, since no one likes to flag, we'll just not to preserve it | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | winston-d: so that's the quirk | 16:39 |
| tbarron | xyang2: I'm ok with that | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | winston-d: which is why I then said "ok... add an apparant/virtual/effective" or whatever "-free" | 16:40 |
| jgriffith | and use that instead | 16:40 |
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| jgriffith | honestly if it's thin I don't necessarily know why the scheduler should care | 16:40 |
| xyang2 | I agree the flag looks ugly. I just want to see if anyone wants to preserve the existing behavior | 16:40 |
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| hemna | ok I'm back. sorry guys, I had a preso dry run to do at the same time as our meeting. | 16:40 |
| winston-d | jgriffith: you can create a type to explicitly ask for thin or thick | 16:40 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: thick and thin on the same backend | 16:41 |
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| xyang2 | jgriffith: so I was given a comment 6 months back when I first started working on this, that we should be conservative and assume the new volume will be consumed | 16:41 |
| jgriffith | winston-d: Oh, the crazy pool nonsense let's you do both | 16:41 |
| jungleboyj | hemna: is back. Back to discussion. ;-) | 16:41 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: that was why it was deducted in the filter scheduler. | 16:41 |
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| jgriffith | winston-d: so seems like both numbers is good to have, and you use the one that's applicable based on the volume-type being created/requested? | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: thoughts? | 16:42 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: You can do both without pools... | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: ok | 16:42 |
| winston-d | jgriffith: right | 16:42 |
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| jungleboyj | jgriffith: ++ | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: winston-d so can we just fix it that way rather than flags etc? | 16:42 |
| xyang2 | yes, some backend can support both thin and thick. | 16:42 |
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| * DuncanT suggests that it looks like we can dump the existing behaviour for thin types... it is broken | 16:42 | |
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| xyang2 | I have added a extraspec for thin, thick in the cinder spec | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: let's discuss that offline | 16:43 |
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| jgriffith | DuncanT: oh! | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | LOL | 16:43 |
| xyang2 | so driver can do it if it wants to | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | yes | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: I agree with you | 16:43 |
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| winston-d | i'm all for fix this bug without flag | 16:43 |
| xyang2 | for the particular implementation, this is for thin actually | 16:43 |
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| jgriffith | xyang2: so driver reports back to scheduler free and apparant-free | 16:43 |
| tbarron | winston-d: +1 | 16:43 |
| patrickeast | winston-d: +1 | 16:43 |
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| jungleboyj | winston-d: +1 | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | scheudler uses apparant-free for thin type scheduling and free for thick | 16:43 |
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| jgriffith | ok | 16:44 |
| patrickeast | sounds reasonable to me | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | so we're all on the same page I think | 16:44 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: that is almost there, I don't think we need more reporting | 16:44 |
| hemna | so every driver that supports both have to now report apparant-free and free ? | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: we can chat more between you and I or you and winston-d | 16:44 |
| DuncanT | Looks like we're enthusiastically agreeing here, shall we stamp it and move on? | 16:44 |
| winston-d | DuncanT: +1 | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: yeah, but I don't think xyang2 agrees | 16:44 |
| patrickeast | although i’m wondering what the odds are of backporting that type of change vs a bug fix for my original problem | 16:44 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith:sure, but those are already reported | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | we can discuss in channel after meeting | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | think it's just 'details' at this point | 16:45 |
| xyang2 | jgriffith: that is what the provisioned_capacity is about | 16:45 |
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| xyang2 | jgriffith: we already have that in driver stats | 16:45 |
| tbarron | xyang2: ++ | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | xyang2: ok, let's talk after... but I'd say then "just use that" | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | there's your fix | 16:45 |
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| xyang2 | jgriffith: I'm fine with that | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | #topic https://bugs.launchpad.net/cinder/+bug/1458976 | 16:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "https://bugs.launchpad.net/cinder/+bug/1458976 (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:45 | |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1458976 in Cinder "cannot create thin provisioned volume larger than free space" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Xing Yang (xing-yang) | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | GAAAA | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | #topic Downgrades in new db migrations | 16:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Downgrades in new db migrations (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:46 | |
| patrickeast | lol | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: you'r one | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | on | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: :) | 16:46 |
| e0ne | i asked this question several weeks ago. DuncanT was against this solution because it makes versioning objects debugging and testing harder | 16:46 |
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| e0ne | imo, downgrades makes our migrations more complex. | 16:47 |
| DuncanT | So hopefully a quick question: Have we come to a conclusion about removing these? None of the new reviews have them | 16:47 |
| e0ne | but they are useful for new migrations development | 16:47 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: I am not aware that we had | 16:47 |
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| DuncanT | Ok, so nobody is going to scream at me for -1ing changes without them. Excellent | 16:48 |
| patrickeast | have new changes merged with out them, or is this just reviews? | 16:48 |
| e0ne | jgriffith, DuncanT: cross-project spec about removing downgrages migration merged | 16:48 |
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| hemna | e0ne, url ? | 16:48 |
| jgriffith | e0ne: so that's the answer then I guess | 16:48 |
| DuncanT | e0ne: cross project specs are advisory | 16:48 |
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| e0ne | #link https://github.com/openstack/openstack-specs/blob/master/specs/no-downward-sql-migration.rst | 16:49 |
| winston-d | in other words, we don't have to follow? | 16:49 |
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| e0ne | DuncanT: agree. fair enough | 16:49 |
| hemna | e0ne, thanks, have to read through that to figure out their justification. | 16:49 |
| vilobhmm | will go through the spec eone | 16:50 |
| bswartz | why don't people want to support downgrades? | 16:50 |
| hemna | downgrades are a bit of a PITA to do in some cases, regarding foreign key constraints, etc | 16:50 |
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| ameade | esp hard with data migrations | 16:50 |
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| DuncanT | bswartz: They're hard to write and down get tested | 16:50 |
| * bswartz mutters under his breath | 16:50 | |
| e0ne | bswartz: becouse operators don't use it in prod | 16:50 |
| ameade | if not impossible | 16:50 |
| hemna | bswartz, the url above seems to explain their justifications. | 16:50 |
| e0ne | hemna: +1 | 16:50 |
| * bswartz readin... | 16:50 | |
| * bswartz reading... | 16:50 | |
| hemna | the problem is the downgrades aren't for operators | 16:50 |
| hemna | they are for us to ensure our upgrades work | 16:51 |
| e0ne | hemna: than's true | 16:51 |
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| hemna | fwiw | 16:51 |
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| hemna | "Update oslo.db to return appropriate errors when trying to perform a schema downgrade" | 16:52 |
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| hemna | so if that gets implemented, our downgrades might start to puke | 16:52 |
| bswartz | this sounds like laziness to me | 16:52 |
| hemna | and we won't be able to not get rid of them | 16:52 |
| DuncanT | The idea of returning to a db dump is just broken in the case of live upgrade though.... | 16:52 |
| * jungleboyj is surprised by it. | 16:52 | |
| bswartz | downgrades are hard to do right -- so we propose to not do downgrades | 16:52 |
| hemna | heh | 16:53 |
| hemna | yah | 16:53 |
| hemna | I had issues w/ downgrades for the multi-attach patch | 16:53 |
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| hemna | but worked through it. | 16:53 |
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| hemna | it seemed like a good exercise to me. | 16:53 |
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| DuncanT | You didn't want to actually keep the volumes you created recently, right? | 16:53 |
| bswartz | nobody cares if downgrades are wildly inefficient, but having them is better than not having them | 16:53 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: I think the real point was "they don't really work when there's data" so we shouldn't pretend they do | 16:53 |
| jungleboyj | bswartz: ++ | 16:53 |
| DuncanT | Oh, and the ones you deleted are back | 16:53 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: there's also a good question on whether they're actually useful for anything other than debug | 16:54 |
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| bswartz | useful for debugging seems like a good enough reason to keep them | 16:54 |
| bswartz | the real problem is if they're buggy -- the solution is to test them and fix the bugs | 16:54 |
| jgriffith | Ok, so I think you all want to do the opposite of the all the folks on the ML | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | that's ok by me | 16:55 |
| DuncanT | If oslo.db is blocking them we're screwed | 16:55 |
| e0ne | imo, re-create db procedure is faster than create downgrade+tests for debugging | 16:55 |
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| jgriffith | e0ne: +1 | 16:55 |
| hemna | according to that spec though, oslo.db is going to be updated to not even allow them | 16:55 |
| hemna | so I think the point might be moot. | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | e0ne: I'm not sure I see why anybody is upset by this but ok | 16:55 |
| DuncanT | e0ne: Have you ever tried to recreate a prod db? It's a nightmare | 16:56 |
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| hemna | DuncanT, +1 | 16:56 |
| e0ne | DuncanT: i'm talking bout debugging | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: have you ever tried to run our downgrades on a production DB? | 16:56 |
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| jgriffith | I can't imagine that it would work | 16:56 |
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| patrickeast | but i thought the point was that these were not used in production? | 16:56 |
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| e0ne | jgriffith: :) | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | patrickeast: :) | 16:56 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: We used them on a dev cluster, in that case they actually worked | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | and thus the circular-reference argument ensues | 16:56 |
| hemna | DuncanT, I think there are 2 purposes for db migrations though. My primary is during development to ensure the changes I've made actually make it in place. In this use case, doing a complete db recreate is just as effective as a downgrade. | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | hemna: that's what grenade does fyi | 16:57 |
| hemna | the other purpose is for live production data, and I'm not sure I ever see a use case where a customer wants to downgrade ? | 16:57 |
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| jgriffith | hemna: your changes are upgrades, not downgrades | 16:57 |
| hemna | yup | 16:57 |
| hemna | jgriffith, agreed. | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | ok, I think this horse it dead... not sure why we're beating it | 16:57 |
| DuncanT | What do you do if your system is busted after an upgrade? | 16:57 |
| hemna | so I think I'd be ok with nuking downgrades. | 16:57 |
| e0ne | DuncanT: revert from backup? | 16:57 |
| DuncanT | e0ne: Live upgrade | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: I'm not sure how/why anybody thinks the downgrade scripts are going to help int hat situation anyway? | 16:58 |
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| hemna | jgriffith, +1 | 16:58 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: If they work, they do... the one time I've tried them on they worked fine | 16:58 |
| hemna | if your upgrade is roasted, the downgrade most likely won't even work. | 16:58 |
| e0ne | DuncanT: i'm not sure that if live upgrade fail, downgrade will work | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: so you've used them once in 4 years? | 16:58 |
| hemna | jgriffith, :) | 16:58 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: Yes | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: don't every become a sales person :) | 16:59 |
| jgriffith | s/every/ever/ | 16:59 |
| hemna | lol | 16:59 |
| bswartz | hemna: the DB upgrade may be fine but the new code could have critical bugs making you want to go back to an older version | 16:59 |
| * jungleboyj is enjoying that mental image | 16:59 | |
| DuncanT | bswartz: ++ | 16:59 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: so honestly I don't care either way, but it sounds as if you need to take it up on the dev ML | 16:59 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: with bswartz | 16:59 |
| jgriffith | because it would seem the rest of the OpenStack community has moved on and may be removing the capability form oslo.db anyhow | 17:00 |
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| jungleboyj | Really seems like the DB should be snapshotted before an upgrade so that it can be rolled back if a disaster occurs. | 17:00 |
| jgriffith | and on that note... we're out of time | 17:00 |
| hemna | bswartz, we have bugs ? | 17:00 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: Yup, didn't realise that there was an official policy. That answers my question for now | 17:00 |
| bswartz | it feels to me like the devs are screwing the users with this change | 17:00 |
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| hemna | :P | 17:00 |
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| jgriffith | bswartz: there was never a user that came back and said they have ever used it though | 17:00 |
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| winston-d | i've never used my | 17:00 |
| jgriffith | ok | 17:00 |
| DuncanT | jungleboyj: You can't snapshot a live db and expect it to work later... new volumes are lost, deleted volumes are back, it is totally broken | 17:00 |
| jgriffith | thanks every one | 17:01 |
| winston-d | fire extinguisher on car, but i want to make sure it works when i need it | 17:01 |
| bswartz | but it's less work for us, so it's all good </sarcasm> | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | #endmeeting | 17:01 |
| hemna | if operators aren't using it, then what's the point ? | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 27 17:01:05 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2015/cinder.2015-05-27-16.00.html | 17:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2015/cinder.2015-05-27-16.00.txt | 17:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2015/cinder.2015-05-27-16.00.log.html | 17:01 |
| jungleboyj | DuncanT: True ... :-( | 17:01 |
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| hemna | bswartz, winning! | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: There's a difference between 'busy' work, and 'useful' work | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | just sayin :) | 17:01 |
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| DuncanT | hemna: most operators do stop-the-world upgrades at the moment, at least on the control plane | 17:01 |
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| notmyname | reminder that the swift meeting is NOT in 4 minutes | 18:57 |
| notmyname | its' in 124 minutes | 18:57 |
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| notmyname | swift meeting time | 21:00 |
| notmyname | #startmeeting swift | 21:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 27 21:00:11 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)" | 21:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'swift' | 21:00 |
| notmyname | who's here for the swift meeting? | 21:00 |
| cschwede | o/ | 21:00 |
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| mattoliverau | o/ | 21:00 |
| jrichli | o/ | 21:00 |
| peluse | rock-n-rolla | 21:00 |
| mrda | o/ | 21:00 |
| kota_ | hi | 21:00 |
| tdasilva | hi | 21:00 |
| joeljwright | hey | 21:00 |
| ho | o/ | 21:00 |
| notmyname | welcome :-) | 21:00 |
| mattoliverau | Yay tdasilva and mrda, 2 of my favorite peeps :) | 21:00 |
| mrda | :) | 21:01 |
| tdasilva | he | 21:01 |
| imkarrer | o/ | 21:01 |
| tdasilva | mattoliverau: hi! | 21:01 |
| * notmyname doesn't have a face with mrda | 21:01 | |
| notmyname | mr davies? | 21:01 |
| mrda | notmyname: that's me | 21:01 |
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| peluse | my 4th grade math teacher? | 21:01 |
| tdasilva | he | 21:01 |
| mrda | lol | 21:01 |
| notmyname | that's scary | 21:01 |
| mattoliverau | notmyname: he ate in your house in SFO :) he had a face then | 21:01 |
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| mattoliverau | I hope | 21:02 |
| acoles | hi | 21:02 |
| mrda | It was required. No face, no mexican :) | 21:02 |
| wbhuber | o/ | 21:02 |
| notmyname | welcome to our first meeting at 2100UTC | 21:02 |
| mattoliverau | lol | 21:02 |
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| notmyname | I'm happy to see everyone here, and I hope the new meeting time works better for those of you far away from me | 21:02 |
| mattoliverau | yay, first sleep in meeting! | 21:02 |
| notmyname | thanks cschwede and acoles for staying up late | 21:03 |
| mattoliverau | +100 | 21:03 |
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| minwoob_ | o/ | 21:03 |
| kota_ | :) | 21:03 |
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| acoles | no problem | 21:03 |
| cschwede | np! | 21:03 |
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| peluse | wow, big crew today - awesome! | 21:03 |
| notmyname | agenda for today: | 21:03 |
| notmyname | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Swift | 21:03 |
| notmyname | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Swift | 21:03 |
| notmyname | #topic summit follow-up | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "summit follow-up (Meeting topic: swift)" | 21:03 | |
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| notmyname | thanks everyone who was at the summit. you helped make it great! | 21:04 |
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| torgomatic | hi | 21:04 |
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| notmyname | and if you weren't there, you were missed | 21:04 |
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| * notmyname looks at tdasilva | 21:04 | |
| * cschwede nods | 21:04 | |
| notmyname | to start with, I want to get some feedback on last wekk | 21:04 |
| tdasilva | :) hopefully next time | 21:04 |
| kota_ | lol | 21:04 |
| notmyname | what did you like? | 21:04 |
| peluse | I really liked the new format on the design side (muchbetter than Tokyo). Favorite sessions was genomics+swift with Joe | 21:04 |
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| torgomatic | soup dumplings were good ;) | 21:05 |
| mattoliverau | peluse: you've already been to the tokyo summit? | 21:05 |
| cschwede | peluse: you mean Paris? or time-travelling, is it getting worse? | 21:05 |
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| peluse | as were the margaritas | 21:05 |
| tdasilva | peluse: tokyo? back from the futrue | 21:05 |
| tdasilva | ? | 21:05 |
| mrda | I liked meeting several of you - y'all were so friendly! | 21:05 |
| peluse | tokyo, hong kong. whatever | 21:05 |
| acoles | better meeting spaces | 21:05 |
| peluse | paris I meant, ahh never mind | 21:05 |
| notmyname | yeah, I liked the general format better too | 21:05 |
| notmyname | the work sessions and the friday open time were very good | 21:05 |
| mattoliverau | Yeah the workrooms were great, all they needed was a projector | 21:06 |
| notmyname | right | 21:06 |
| mrda | mattoliverau: +1 | 21:06 |
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| cschwede | was close to perfect. more chairs on the friday room would be great, and a beamer | 21:06 |
| acoles | mattoliverau: he didnt ask for negatives yet ;) | 21:06 |
| notmyname | what did you not like and what do you want to see changed for tokyo? | 21:06 |
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| mattoliverau | lol | 21:06 |
| acoles | projectors in tokyo please ! | 21:06 |
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| peluse | I guess fishbowl vs work session wasn't much different for us other than whether the rom had a projector or not... | 21:06 |
| kota_ | more tap on the table | 21:06 |
| mattoliverau | what acoles said :) | 21:07 |
| cschwede | wishlist: a swift exabyte deployment keynote on monday morning :) | 21:07 |
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| notmyname | cschwede: oh can you talk about some prod clusters we don't know of yet? ;-) | 21:07 |
| clayg | torgomatic: man you didn't waste no time with simplejson | 21:07 |
| ho | better network connectivity (wifi) | 21:07 |
| peluse | yeah so on the projector thing. clarity on whether all rooms will have it or just fishbowls so we can plan accordingly (for tokyo) | 21:07 |
| torgomatic | clayg: nope :) | 21:07 |
| notmyname | ho: ah? I didn't have any problems | 21:07 |
| ho | notmyname: sometime it's very difficult to connect network. | 21:08 |
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| notmyname | ok, good to know | 21:08 |
| mattoliverau | Aside from the venue, I was impressed with how many swift talks there were, a great sign for the health of our project. | 21:08 |
| notmyname | I agree about the need for a projector | 21:08 |
| notmyname | mattoliverau: +1 keeps going up :-) | 21:09 |
| mattoliverau | I thought the Ops session went much better then last year, we have a bunch of ops releated feed back to work on. | 21:09 |
| notmyname | so I thought that the work sessions were too short. too fast of context switching I think I heard from someone | 21:09 |
| notmyname | yeah, the ops session was great | 21:09 |
| peluse | 19 swift talks by my count | 21:09 |
| peluse | 8 cinder, 8 ceph | 21:09 |
| acoles | notmyname: we did seem to run over into most breaks | 21:09 |
| peluse | (9 cinder) | 21:10 |
| notmyname | yeah, having double work sessions (and potentially fewer fishbowls) might be good | 21:10 |
| mattoliverau | yeah, were obviously a talkative bunch :P | 21:10 |
| joeljwright | notmyname: yeah, we seemed to have to stop just as we got to the meat | 21:10 |
| notmyname | joeljwright: yup, I felt that way too | 21:10 |
| * clayg assumes mrda's comment about friendlyness applies to the *rest* ya'll | 21:10 | |
| mrda | lol | 21:10 |
| clayg | *double* work sessions! | 21:10 |
| mattoliverau | you too clayg, your grumpy in a nice way :P | 21:11 |
| clayg | like we do container sharding twice as hard!? | 21:11 |
| peluse | *triple* work sessions!! | 21:11 |
| kota_ | lol | 21:11 |
| slavisa | I found friday discussion very useful, have more of that format | 21:11 |
| clayg | notmyname: if we need a projector it's not a work session | 21:11 |
| cschwede | we just need to apply EC to work sessions… | 21:11 |
| clayg | notmyname: I just think some of the discussions benifited from the smaller rooms | 21:11 |
| notmyname | clayg: that's not always true. eg code reviews | 21:11 |
| clayg | notmyname: good point, i was wrong | 21:11 |
| notmyname | or ones where a picture helps everyone get on the same page | 21:11 |
| peluse | especially for us blind guys | 21:12 |
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| joeljwright | clayg: we could always have done with the etherpads on a screen | 21:12 |
| clayg | joeljwright: that's only helpful is someone doesn't know how to eatherpad (not that *I* know anyone like that) | 21:12 |
| notmyname | ok, so what was your favorite session (tech or conference) during the week? | 21:12 |
| joeljwright | :D | 21:12 |
| cschwede | i would like to see work sessions earlier in the week, some people already left Friday afternoon due to flights, and everyone seemed to be a little bit tired (me included) after a packed week | 21:13 |
| clayg | ya'll are right - I take back everything I said about sreens in working sessions | 21:13 |
| clayg | but I do still think the fishbowls were too big | 21:13 |
| acoles | hey joeljwright is up late too :D | 21:13 |
| notmyname | cschwede: oh yeah. I was super tired by friday and just enjoyed sitting and chatting with you | 21:13 |
| joeljwright | :) | 21:13 |
| peluse | genomics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u91VbQyltU | 21:13 |
| notmyname | peluse: yeah, that one was fun | 21:13 |
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| acoles | clayg and i were the last ones standing on friday at 5pm | 21:14 |
| notmyname | on the tech side I really enjoyed the ops sessions and the other ops one (from softlayer) | 21:14 |
| clayg | I think there's like some sort of perhaps historic reason to do the work/hack days at the end of the week? | 21:14 |
| notmyname | acoles: clayg: somehow that doesn't surprise me | 21:14 |
| acoles | heh | 21:14 |
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| ho | i like this https://libertydesignsummit.sched.org/event/51f4e0a00d70a063dfd5d99cd6cf5ccd#.VWYzoc_5fIU | 21:14 |
| joeljwright | it was quite intense doing 3 solid days of design/work sessions though | 21:14 |
| mattoliverau | Talk wise, I actaully enjoyed all the metric talks (donagh, cschwede, etc) nice work all | 21:14 |
| notmyname | in tokyo, there is 100% overlap between the conference and summit. IIRC the whole thing is 4 days long | 21:14 |
| peluse | yipes | 21:15 |
| cschwede | mattoliverau: thx! | 21:15 |
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| notmyname | any thoughts from anyone who was there for the first time? | 21:15 |
| mrda | that's going to be 4 intense days | 21:15 |
| notmyname | mrda: no kidding | 21:15 |
| notmyname | anythign we can do better to prepare for the next one? | 21:16 |
| peluse | I guess we just drink on the fifth day then? :) | 21:16 |
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| torgomatic | drink a fifth of what now? | 21:16 |
| slavisa | I was there first time, thursday sessions were short ('fishbowl'?), friday discussion I found very useful | 21:16 |
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| peluse | i think we were pretty well prepared | 21:16 |
| clayg | yay friday! | 21:16 |
| jrichli | notmyname: my storage architect has already quoted you from the hearding cats talk several times | 21:16 |
| ho | slavisa: +1 | 21:17 |
| notmyname | jrichli: uh oh :-) | 21:17 |
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| imkarrer | we have cats? | 21:17 |
| clayg | jrichli: everything notmyname says is *pure gold* | 21:17 |
| kota_ | jrichli: +1 | 21:17 |
| jrichli | thats a good thing : encouraging lots of communication with community | 21:17 |
| acoles | notmyname: not thought of any better preparation ideas, i think the agenda prep on etherpad went ok | 21:17 |
| slavisa | I liked that people were open when approached to discuss ad hoc topics as well | 21:17 |
| clayg | jrichli: basically most of the time the SwiftStack office only communicates in notmyname quotes | 21:17 |
| mrda | imkarrer: you need cats to take pictures of cats to store pictures of cats. Or at least I thought so. | 21:17 |
| notmyname | ok, I feel we should move on.... | 21:17 |
| tdasilva | what did you guys think of the panel you held on monday? | 21:18 |
| clayg | lol | 21:18 |
| clayg | notmyname: you could just /kick me | 21:18 |
| jrichli | clayg: ic :-) | 21:18 |
| notmyname | tdasilva: I thought it went well. I was really happy with how many people were there | 21:18 |
| notmyname | actually surprised it was so crowded | 21:18 |
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| peluse | 140+ | 21:18 |
| cschwede | tdasilva: shameless self-praising: i think it went well, i liked it | 21:18 |
| clayg | tdasilva: the loud guy in the middle was annoying | 21:18 |
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| acoles | LOL | 21:18 |
| kota_ | lol | 21:19 |
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| tdasilva | clayg: you always stand out :P | 21:19 |
| notmyname | cschwede: did you get anything abotu a recording of it? I haven't seen a link anywhere? | 21:19 |
| mrda | I think it went well, nice to put names to faces for newbies like myself | 21:19 |
| mattoliverau | we should have all wore cat tshirts as a segway into notmyname's talk | 21:19 |
| peluse | i liked the dudes with the accents | 21:19 |
| jrichli | you all were great! | 21:19 |
| cschwede | notmyname: one sec | 21:19 |
| acoles | clayg had a youtube link? | 21:19 |
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| notmyname | peluse: yes. I loved that we have people from everywhere | 21:19 |
| cschwede | notmyname: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0pF69yMNAI | 21:19 |
| clayg | yeah once cschwede told me it was on youtube a search found it for me np | 21:19 |
| notmyname | cschwede: thanks! | 21:19 |
| notmyname | ok, anything else for summit follow-up? | 21:20 |
| clayg | but really - it wasn't nearly as interesting as joe or donagh's stuff | 21:20 |
| peluse | but the accent award has to go to Duncan on Cinder, have you hear him say "sucks"... "sooooks" | 21:20 |
| acoles | peluse: heh | 21:21 |
| notmyname | #topic summit decisions and TODOs | 21:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "summit decisions and TODOs (Meeting topic: swift)" | 21:21 | |
| notmyname | so there were quite a few of these | 21:21 |
| notmyname | first up, no more py26 | 21:21 |
| * peluse has to bolt... catch up y'all later | 21:21 | |
| notmyname | thanks again to RAX for supporting that | 21:21 |
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| mrda | \o/ | 21:21 |
| torgomatic | ding dong, 2.6 is dead | 21:21 |
| mattoliverau | peluse: o/ | 21:22 |
| notmyname | so torgomatic has already submitted patches for it | 21:22 |
| clayg | heh - talk about chompin' at the bit | 21:22 |
| notmyname | I had a patch merge today that drops the py26 tox env | 21:22 |
| notmyname | so that's the "official" end of it | 21:22 |
| notmyname | #info py26 is no longer supported in swift | 21:22 |
| notmyname | next up, and as you can see at this very moment, meeting time has changed | 21:23 |
| torgomatic | well, I have a hard problem that's giving me fits, so I'm doing this other stuff instead to produce the illusion of productivity ;) | 21:23 |
| notmyname | I suppose if you're here now, you already know that | 21:23 |
| mattoliverau | yay | 21:23 |
| tdasilva | notmyname: what's up with py3? earlier I saw a bunch of patches re py3.... | 21:23 |
| notmyname | yeah, I wanted to bring that up in a bit... | 21:23 |
| tdasilva | ok | 21:23 |
| joeljwright | do we still need py26 in swiftclient? | 21:23 |
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| notmyname | joeljwright: you tell me ;-) | 21:24 |
| notmyname | joeljwright: actually, I think it's better to keep support there than in swift. but I'm also ok with dropping it | 21:24 |
| joeljwright | it might cause issues | 21:24 |
| notmyname | I don't have any numbers on how many swiftclient users use py26 | 21:24 |
| clayg | no way swiftclient is successfully making py3 progress while still supporting py26 | 21:24 |
| notmyname | yeah, that's a big issue (from the code side) | 21:25 |
| joeljwright | I'll have a quick look at linux distros python versions | 21:25 |
| notmyname | thank | 21:25 |
| notmyname | s | 21:25 |
| joeljwright | scientific linux/centos worries me | 21:25 |
| notmyname | yeah, cent/rhel6 has py26 | 21:25 |
| clayg | i really didn't think swiftclient still supported py26 - but oh kay | 21:26 |
| notmyname | clayg: yeah, me either | 21:26 |
| notmyname | joeljwright: can you look in to it and report back | 21:26 |
| joeljwright | yeah np | 21:26 |
| notmyname | thanks | 21:26 |
| joeljwright | last I loked py26 was still a swiftclient gate | 21:26 |
| notmyname | ah | 21:26 |
| swifterdarrell | notmyname: clayg: it was a year or two ago, but we had someone with CentOS 5.x systems needing to run python-swiftclient (where 2.6 is the *new* python for the distro version) | 21:27 |
| notmyname | I'm hoping to have some midcycle/hackathon details shortly (in a matter of days), so stay alert for that | 21:27 |
| notmyname | swifterdarrell: wow | 21:27 |
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| swifterdarrell | notmyname: clayg: and RHEL/CentOS 6.x still have some legs on 'em, right? | 21:27 |
| clayg | joeljwright: yeah i guess i was wrong, i see py26, py27 and py33 checks on python-swiftclient - crazy | 21:27 |
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| notmyname | ok, next up for post-summit TODOs... | 21:28 |
| notmyname | I've gone through the etherpads and consolidated some todo items from them | 21:28 |
| notmyname | then I took those and put most of them onto the priority reviews page | 21:28 |
| notmyname | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Swift/PriorityReviews | 21:28 |
| notmyname | so the high-level bullets are "stuff people are working on" | 21:29 |
| notmyname | and that's a big list | 21:29 |
| notmyname | my next step is to consolidate more of the TODOs and get them summarized onto a wiki page (or somewhere) and put some relative priority to them | 21:29 |
| tdasilva | this is awesome: "python-swiftclient improvements: lots" | 21:30 |
| mattoliverau | lol, yup | 21:30 |
| notmyname | there was a really good list put together in that working session | 21:30 |
| notmyname | stuff that's annoying, stuff that needs improvement, stuff that's just broken | 21:30 |
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| joeljwright | just little things like auth, docs, interface… | 21:31 |
| joeljwright | :S | 21:31 |
| notmyname | so question for everyone, how do you want to see all the info? are you looking for whatever I come up with? or do you have strong feelings on how it should be done? | 21:31 |
| notmyname | ie all the ideas/todos/etc with some priority | 21:31 |
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| acoles | notmyname: i think that list is useful | 21:32 |
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| tdasilva | +1 | 21:32 |
| acoles | could be a frame for adding priority reveiws as they come and go? | 21:32 |
| jrichli | I am open to whatever: I just want to be able to add a few things I never got to add to the etherpads | 21:32 |
| notmyname | yeah, i'm thinking of consolidating it with the ideas wiki page. just need to communicate some difference between "wouldn't it be nice..." and "this is being done" | 21:33 |
| notmyname | but yeah, definitely having the high-level picture of stuff going on and decided is a great way to frame the priority reviews. I agree acoles | 21:33 |
| mattoliverau | I like how priority reviews in gerret are starred by you in the dashboard. and haveing a list with priorities and ideas in the wiki works well in conjunction | 21:33 |
| notmyname | the last piece is the triaging and tagging of the launchpad bugs. after getting this list together, i'm going to start working on the LP bug list | 21:34 |
| acoles | notmyname: can I add fast-post and migrating keystoneauth to policy.json (ho) ? | 21:34 |
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| notmyname | acoles: yes | 21:34 |
| ho | acoles: thanks! | 21:35 |
| notmyname | my goal is to have a good picture of what people are talking about, working on, and needs to be done so that everyone can see it | 21:35 |
| clayg | acoles: so much things | 21:35 |
| notmyname | yeah, I didn't get several things that were discussed on friday | 21:36 |
| tdasilva | notmyname: should that list be constantly updated by the people working on those things or are you going to update it? | 21:36 |
| clayg | goodness we left of part power too - so not going to get to all of this | 21:36 |
| notmyname | tdasilva: everyone can, I'll mostly do it | 21:36 |
| notmyname | tdasilva: kinda like it works now :-) | 21:36 |
| notmyname | clayg: I left that off intentionally. the conclusion last week was "interesting but not really a problem anyone has today" | 21:36 |
| mattoliverau | we should link to specs on the wiki when there is one too, cause then people can see ideas that have already have had some motion, even if stalled so they know how to start work (if there interested). | 21:37 |
| clayg | notmyname: wfm | 21:37 |
| notmyname | we should land the spec, but nothing to be done yet, at least not before the other stuff | 21:37 |
| notmyname | speaking of....we gotta get better about specs | 21:37 |
| notmyname | if an author and reviewer agree on something in a spec, land it! | 21:37 |
| clayg | notmyname: how did we not brainstorm on this while we were in summit? | 21:37 |
| notmyname | clayg: which part? | 21:38 |
| notmyname | which means that specs should start small and then get bigger as they get fleshed out | 21:38 |
| acoles | clayg: they all left early remember? ;) | 21:38 |
| clayg | notmyname: how to make specs more lightweight | 21:38 |
| notmyname | clayg: epic fail? | 21:38 |
| clayg | idk | 21:38 |
| clayg | I think the whole idea of specs may have been half-cocked | 21:38 |
| notmyname | it's an expirament | 21:39 |
| clayg | on one hand I really like that people can say "what about this idea" before having to write some code | 21:39 |
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| notmyname | it's to facilitate communication. let's change it as needed and use it as helpful. it's not a thing that must or must not be done | 21:39 |
| clayg | notmyname: yeah, i'm just curious if we can point to spec that was like "wow, a++ would buy from again" | 21:40 |
| torgomatic | "spec contained live bobcat" | 21:40 |
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| notmyname | for now, I'd like to continue specs. let's give it another month and see where we are | 21:41 |
| notmyname | and if I'm not bugging people about them, then bug me abotu that :-) | 21:41 |
| notmyname | (clayg is good about bugging me) | 21:41 |
| mattoliverau | notmyname: thanks for working on the priority reviews/ideas page, more visibility will be awesome. | 21:42 |
| acoles | i think they are useful to see what people are thinking and what new features are on radar but agree we need to get away from them being never-landed | 21:42 |
| notmyname | acoles: yeah, that's my thought too | 21:42 |
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| cschwede | maybe land a small spec with a rough idea first, and then work on the details? | 21:43 |
| * acoles knows thats partly my fault | 21:43 | |
| mattoliverau | Do we need a swift spec rule page on the wiki? how our process works, in_progress vs. complete and land fast? | 21:43 |
| notmyname | cschwede: yeah, I think that's the idea we've got written down. | 21:43 |
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| clayg | mattoliverau: I think there's something like that *IN* the specs repo? | 21:43 |
| notmyname | https://github.com/openstack/swift-specs/blob/master/README.rst | 21:43 |
| clayg | mattoliverau: could probably be updated refined and elaborated on | 21:44 |
| mattoliverau | yeah, but put it somewhere where new contributors will look. | 21:44 |
| clayg | mattoliverau: the truth was when we started with specs a) we didn't know what we were doing b) no one seemed to be doing anything we liked that we could take hints from | 21:44 |
| cschwede | notmyname: i thought of something even more simple thant currently stated in the readme | 21:44 |
| jrichli | I think the issue is that incompleteness should be addressed, but should not prevent acceptance of what is there | 21:44 |
| notmyname | I think it's because we're all generally _really_ picky about patches that go in to swift, so we dont' like landing patches anywhere that feel "not finished" | 21:44 |
| cschwede | so no technical implementation details in the beginning to speed up accept/deny | 21:45 |
| mattoliverau | clayg: I agree, I just want to make it clear so when we tell someone to write a spec there is something to point too. but yeah, lets start with an updated README | 21:45 |
| clayg | notmyname: I do think we could clean up the spec template to get rid of a *bunch* of junk and focus the conversation more on the use case - operations implications - interation with other features - stuff that matters to us | 21:45 |
| notmyname | cschwede: ah interesting | 21:45 |
| notmyname | clayg: liek what cschwede is saying? don't do technical design in the spec | 21:45 |
| cschwede | at least not in the first commit | 21:46 |
| notmyname | I like that idea. avoids the waterfall design trap of specs (/me feels other projects' specs are tending that way) | 21:46 |
| torgomatic | it's not like a spec makes us legally bound to implement it or anything... if the spec looks good but it turns out that any possible implementation is too horrible to contemplate, then we just won't do it | 21:46 |
| tdasilva | notmyname, cschwede: just not sure that is the main issue... | 21:46 |
| tdasilva | so specs do make nice progressions, it's just that they sit in review for a loooong time | 21:47 |
| cschwede | tdasilva: well, i think sometimes the idea of a proposed spec is ok, but the technical details take a huge amount of time | 21:47 |
| tdasilva | most specs do start pretty small, no? | 21:47 |
| clayg | torgomatic: yeah we should write something down on the process to back away from in-progress spec slowly just so we have an escape hatch clearly marked | 21:47 |
| clayg | ... even if we never use it | 21:47 |
| mattoliverau | I think noone lands them cause people look for specs in review rather then in there landed location | 21:47 |
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| clayg | cschwede: yeah I think avoiding implementation minutia is a *great* way get some agreement | 21:48 |
| acoles | the symlinks spec is a good example of some but not complete implementation detail (no offence to torgomatic because thats fine) but we can say 'nice idea lets do it' | 21:48 |
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| notmyname | ok, so to summarize what i'm hearing, specs take way too long to land, tech details up front cause it to slow down, discoverability of landed specs may be an issue | 21:49 |
| mattoliverau | yup, so all that are communication issues.. which we can solve :) | 21:50 |
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| acoles | so where there is a landed spec, link to it from priority review page section | 21:51 |
| clayg | #info mattoliverau to solve specs | 21:51 |
| acoles | did someone already say that? | 21:51 |
| notmyname | acoles: I think that's a good idea. and mattoliverau implied it, but you said it | 21:51 |
| tdasilva | if it's in review, it should probably be linked to, right? | 21:52 |
| mattoliverau | clayg: me and my big mouth :P | 21:52 |
| notmyname | tdasilva: we do have specs right at the top of the review dashboards | 21:52 |
| acoles | mattoliverau: turn your abandoner bot on its head and give us an auto-lander-bot ;D | 21:52 |
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| clayg | acoles: this spec will automatically be merged in 5... 4... | 21:52 |
| mattoliverau | acoles: lol, auto-lander.. I could do that :P | 21:52 |
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| tdasilva | can I somehow sneak in swift patches? | 21:53 |
| notmyname | mattoliverau: can you add the landed specs (in the in_progress) dir to the top of the priority reviews wiki? could you do that today? | 21:53 |
| mattoliverau | if there is a +1 and sitting there for > 1 week | 21:53 |
| notmyname | no auto-landing yet :-) | 21:53 |
| mattoliverau | notmyname: sure | 21:53 |
| notmyname | mattoliverau: thanks | 21:53 |
| notmyname | ok, anything else to bring up in the meeting this week? | 21:53 |
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| notmyname | ok, then let's call it | 21:54 |
| mattoliverau | Thanks everyone for agreeing to move the meeting forward.. I'm much more awake | 21:54 |
| notmyname | :-) | 21:54 |
| joeljwright | :) | 21:54 |
| cschwede | :) | 21:54 |
| notmyname | I can tell. you're much more talkative | 21:54 |
| acoles | clayg: mattoliverau : it would keep us reviewers on our toes :) | 21:54 |
| notmyname | and cschwede is quieter ;-) | 21:54 |
| mattoliverau | and apparently volenteer for much more :P | 21:54 |
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| acoles | mattoliverau: right! | 21:55 |
| notmyname | thanks for coming today, and thanks for working on swift | 21:55 |
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| notmyname | #endmeeting | 21:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:55 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 27 21:55:18 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:55 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2015/swift.2015-05-27-21.00.html | 21:55 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2015/swift.2015-05-27-21.00.txt | 21:55 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2015/swift.2015-05-27-21.00.log.html | 21:55 |
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| Shamail | hi all, let's give barrett a few minutes to join... | 23:00 |
| MeganR | Hi Shamail | 23:01 |
| geoffarnold | o\ | 23:01 |
| Shamail | Hi MeganR, geoffarnold! | 23:01 |
| bear_field | Hello everyone, André from Blue Box | 23:01 |
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| cloudrancher | Hi Shamail. Forgive my clumsiness Jay from IBM | 23:01 |
| Shamail | Hey bear_field, cloudrancher | 23:02 |
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| Rockyg | o/ | 23:02 |
| Shamail | Let's wait until 4:05P PT to officially kick off | 23:02 |
| Shamail | \o | 23:02 |
| geoffarnold | ok | 23:02 |
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| geoffarnold | Nice thing about an IRC meeting is that I can leave the window open without noise from the street showing up on WebEx audio | 23:03 |
| Shamail | lol true | 23:03 |
| Gavin_Pratt_HP | Hey guys | 23:03 |
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| sarob | Hello | 23:04 |
| Shamail | Hi Gavin_Pratt_HP | 23:04 |
| Shamail | hi sarob | 23:04 |
| sarob | Sorry I'm late | 23:04 |
| sarob | Start now? | 23:04 |
| Shamail | NP | 23:04 |
| sarob | #startmeeting product-team | 23:04 |
| Shamail | Sure. I was going to wait until 4:05P | 23:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 27 23:04:31 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sarob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 23:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 23:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: product-team)" | 23:04 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'product_team' | 23:04 |
| sarob | Just on the wire :) | 23:04 |
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| sarob | Under | 23:04 |
| Shamail | Indeed | 23:05 |
| Shamail | Before we begin | 23:05 |
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| sarob | #topic summit feedback | 23:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "summit feedback (Meeting topic: product-team)" | 23:05 | |
| Shamail | I'd like to extend a warm welcome to all of the new people that have joined IRC today. It was great to see you participate last week and join the bi-weekly meeting | 23:05 |
| sarob | \o/ | 23:05 |
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| Rockyg | ++ | 23:06 |
| Shamail | hi barrett | 23:06 |
| barrett | Hi Shamail - Sorry I'm late! | 23:06 |
| barrett | Who else is on? | 23:06 |
| Shamail | Please continue to be active on IRC and ML! We need as much help as we can get. | 23:06 |
| Shamail | Sorry to derail sarob... let's proceedd | 23:06 |
| Shamail | NP barrett | 23:06 |
| Rockyg | We all are!!! | 23:06 |
| Shamail | barrett: The usual suspects + a lot more :) | 23:07 |
| barrett | Excellent! | 23:07 |
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| barrett | Where are we in the agenda? | 23:07 |
| Shamail | The first item | 23:08 |
| sarob | Just started | 23:08 |
| sarob | Summit recap | 23:08 |
| barrett | Can everyone access the summary in the Google folder? | 23:08 |
| barrett | #link https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxtM4AiszlEyfkJOeEFGaVEwZVk2ZHU5NHR6My1idmVLcEd0aXc1Vy1jVzhvb0tvWm9QV1U&usp=sharing | 23:09 |
| cloudrancher | I'm good | 23:09 |
| Shamail | I can. | 23:09 |
| MeganR | I can | 23:09 |
| geoffarnold | o/ | 23:09 |
| bear_field | i can | 23:09 |
| barrett | Is there anyone on the meeting who wasn't at the Summit? | 23:10 |
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| barrett | Any questions on the Sessions or Feedback we got on Roadmap or Process? | 23:11 |
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| sarob | good progress from everyone i spoke with | 23:13 |
| sarob | very positive | 23:13 |
| Shamail | The response seemed very positive to the concept but also a lot of "let's see the details" type comments. | 23:13 |
| jimhaselmaier | I thought the roadmap views were OUTSTANDING | 23:13 |
| barrett | ++ | 23:14 |
| Rockyg | but also a lot of "where has this group been the last 4 years" | 23:14 |
| jimhaselmaier | And I heard good feedback from others on them. | 23:14 |
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| Shamail | everyone should pat themselves on the back and then get back to work >:] | 23:14 |
| sarob | i thought i was working :( | 23:14 |
| Rockyg | Also, a lot of people are looking to address gaps through product wg use cases then populating the developers to address them | 23:14 |
| barrett | My take-away was people want us to help consolidate input to the technical planning work; but want us to align with the current processes and timing is important. | 23:15 |
| Rockyg | sarob - a small voice in the wilderness often goes unheard by the masses | 23:15 |
| barrett | RockyG: +1 | 23:15 |
| sarob | peep | 23:15 |
| cloudrancher | The feedback seemed good, but I sensed a bit of concern from some people that the product team might be trying to usurp some PTL power | 23:15 |
| barrett | RockyG: I got that message consistently from PTLs | 23:15 |
| Shamail | barrett: +1, I think changes can be made but we should make them/ask for them unless absolutely necessary | 23:15 |
| Shamail | should not* | 23:16 |
| geoffarnold | The Users Group committee meeting was interesting. Small turnout. Interested in Product WG, but lots of "so what should I do net?" | 23:16 |
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| geoffarnold | next | 23:16 |
| cloudrancher | The cross product coordination seemed to be a really useful service | 23:16 |
| barrett | Geoffarnold: I think we've got a work plan to set that out, but probably need to add a few things to make sure we cover all interested parties | 23:17 |
| cloudrancher | from the product team to the project teams | 23:17 |
| sarob | i think at this point, actions will decide for the ptls if we are help or hindrance | 23:17 |
| Shamail | sarob: +1 | 23:17 |
| barrett | Cloudrancher: +1; Think there is also the desire from project team to project team | 23:17 |
| geoffarnold | I think we should make sure that our company reps on the Users Group are plugged in. (Unless that's us.) | 23:17 |
| cloudrancher | right - that's why I brought up the cross product thing - seems to be underserverd | 23:17 |
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| sarob | we have a pretty good idea on how to move forward | 23:17 |
| barrett | sarob +1 | 23:17 |
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| cloudrancher | ok. great | 23:17 |
| sarob | cloudrancher: +1 | 23:17 |
| Rockyg | also, there is a *great* need for a cloud service provider wg to address their needs | 23:17 |
| cloudrancher | you guys know the personalities | 23:17 |
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| barrett | RockyG: Is there someone who you think will champion this? | 23:18 |
| Rockyg | I know a couple of people, I think. I think we can get HP, Rackspace, likely DreamHost and a few others onboard. | 23:18 |
| barrett | RockyG: Are you working on that? | 23:19 |
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| Rockyg | sure. I'll take that up. | 23:19 |
| jimhaselmaier | When we say "Cross project coordination" - is there a specific example we use to get an idea what that is? | 23:19 |
| sarob | i can help with the dh person | 23:19 |
| Rockyg | Once started, it will power itself | 23:20 |
| sarob | jimhaselmaier: there is a cross project team | 23:20 |
| Rockyg | thanks, sarob | 23:20 |
| Rockyg | That's one I didn't have | 23:20 |
| Rockyg | Got one in India, too. | 23:20 |
| sarob | jimhaselmaier: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons | 23:20 |
| Shamail | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting | 23:20 |
| sarob | they meet once a week | 23:21 |
| barrett | Jimhaselmaier: The example I heard was that when there is a cross project capability, like Versioned Object,it would be useful to for Projects to know the status of Oslo, since it's a gate for other projects to implement | 23:21 |
| sarob | mostly ptls | 23:21 |
| cloudrancher | jimhaselmaier - the example I heard was on the shared volume capability that Cinder did most of the work but the Nova work fell out of Kilo | 23:21 |
| jimhaselmaier | OK. Thx. | 23:21 |
| cloudrancher | more of a visibility issue is seemed | 23:22 |
| barrett | Jimhasselmaier: And if Oslo is trending behind, then the other projects can prioritize other features/bugs/etc higher to make an impact in the release. | 23:22 |
| barrett | cloundrancher: +1 | 23:22 |
| Shamail | I think some of the next steps we will discuss will change the meaning of cross project work for us, but that part of the agenda is yet to come. | 23:22 |
| cloudrancher | Thx | 23:22 |
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| Shamail | overall, there is a group responsible for cross project work but a lot of it is focused on functionality and not cross project use-cases. | 23:22 |
| barrett | Speaking of which, are we ready to move on? | 23:23 |
| Shamail | I believe so. | 23:23 |
| sarob | yup | 23:23 |
| Rockyg | Shamail: ++ | 23:23 |
| barrett | #topic Work Plan Review | 23:23 |
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| sarob | #topic Work Plan Review | 23:24 |
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| sarob | i can take a hint | 23:24 |
| Shamail | :D | 23:24 |
| barrett | :) | 23:24 |
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| sarob | somebody borked the root meeting page | 23:24 |
| sarob | trying to find the meeting page | 23:25 |
| barrett | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/product-team#Team_Meeting_27_May_2015 | 23:25 |
| Shamail | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/product-team | 23:25 |
| Shamail | It worked for me | 23:25 |
| Gavin_Pratt_HP | me too :) | 23:25 |
| sarob | got | 23:25 |
| sarob | it | 23:25 |
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| barrett | I think we want to walk through the Action Plan and talk about the use case selection approach for this cycle - walk before we run | 23:26 |
| sarob | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ProductWG_TokyoActionPlan | 23:26 |
| sarob | action plan | 23:26 |
| Shamail | barrett: shall we give some context about overall direction between L and M? | 23:26 |
| jimhaselmaier | +1 | 23:26 |
| sarob | i have no sockets :( | 23:26 |
| jimhaselmaier | That would help | 23:26 |
| barrett | Shamail: Pls go ahead | 23:26 |
| Shamail | thx. | 23:26 |
| sarob | go for it | 23:27 |
| Shamail | So, as everyone knows, after our midcycle we decided to focus on athering PTL feedback and eventually presenting it in the form of a roadmap | 23:27 |
| Shamail | the form we presented was not the final one but it got our intentions across and, more importantly, let us socialize the concept with the PTLs | 23:27 |
| Shamail | this work was essential and helped us gain awareness | 23:27 |
| Shamail | however, while that work was focus on aggregating feedback... most of the community wants to see how the other side of product WG will work | 23:28 |
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| Shamail | namely, how can we help get requirements (in project, cross project) from WGs to the project teams | 23:28 |
| Shamail | Just like we focus on aggregating feedback in our last phase | 23:29 |
| Shamail | we believe that doing the other task of collecting requirements and working with project teams to start building a requirements pipeline is the next step needed for our group | 23:29 |
| Shamail | to establish some experience with | 23:29 |
| Shamail | This is why we are asking for "use case selection", we want to try and send a few requirements/use cases through the top of the funnel to the project teams using a standard workflow | 23:30 |
| Shamail | back to you barrett! | 23:30 |
| Shamail | (please let us know if you have questions) | 23:30 |
| jimhaselmaier | Great summary.....and very clear. | 23:30 |
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| barrett | The plan is to establish a repo, and ask people across the community to use our template and post their use cases | 23:31 |
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| bear_field | great overview. thanks Shamail | 23:31 |
| geoffarnold | Have we identified a liaison person in each WG that will work with Product? Enterprise is obvious(?), but the others....? | 23:32 |
| Rockyg | One of the things we may see (I hope) is that the devs will break out the work into specs and determine short term work that is possible, and what the longer view work would look like | 23:32 |
| geoffarnold | Ideally each WG meeting agenda will include a status check on Product interaction | 23:32 |
| Rockyg | geoffarnold: ++ | 23:32 |
| jimhaselmaier | Will there be one repo? Or one per WG? Or one per project? Or something else? | 23:33 |
| barrett | GeoffArnold - We didn't establish WG Liasons yet or Project liasons. | 23:33 |
| geoffarnold | Project liaisons are probably in the gift of the PTLs | 23:33 |
| Rockyg | I would think one repo for use cases that might break down into WG directories | 23:33 |
| barrett | We'd like the use cases posted by 6/14 and then will use this meeting on 6/24 to vote and identify the top 5. | 23:33 |
| bear_field | Rockyg: +1 | 23:34 |
| Shamail | barrett: +1 | 23:34 |
| geoffarnold | The feedback from Nova was interesting - they're moving to a real backlog model that should fit well | 23:34 |
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| Rockyg | This would allow us to pull cross wg use cases/requirements into either another dir, or the top dir | 23:34 |
| jimhaselmaier | Rockyg: +1 | 23:34 |
| Shamail | For this specific phase, let's build out the repo to support use-cases from across the WGs... however this is an experiment (to check/refine our workflow) so it will not be an all encompassing run through | 23:34 |
| barrett | RockyG: I wonder about separating the use cases - we're hoping that there's a lot of common requirements across them. Is it easier to get people to look across them by having them all in 1 or in separate directories? | 23:34 |
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| barrett | Shamail: +1, try an approach, learn, evolve | 23:35 |
| Shamail | barrett and Rockyg, I would prefer them in one directory but have a tag identifying which group they came from | 23:35 |
| geoffarnold | Who owns each use case? Probably a WG, or a WG subteam | 23:35 |
| geoffarnold | Domain expertise FTW | 23:35 |
| barrett | geoffarnold: I think individuals own Use Cases | 23:35 |
| Rockyg | Shamail: , barrett +1 start that way. Once we get lots, we'll need to further categorize | 23:35 |
| Shamail | it is useful data to know which WG submitted it but having them in one directory is useful that way we can just add other groups to the same requirement/use-case | 23:36 |
| Shamail | adding a WG to a use-case basically becomes a +1 from them | 23:36 |
| barrett | We can add a field in the use case template for the name of the work group and individual | 23:36 |
| Rockyg | So, WG might be added to template | 23:36 |
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| jimhaselmaier | While I massively agree with do it fast to try it and evolve - tags for the source (which WG) as well as impacted projects might be helpful. | 23:36 |
| barrett | RockyG: +1 | 23:36 |
| Rockyg | And if more than one wg has same usecase, they just add that wg to the existing list of wgs in the use case | 23:37 |
| Shamail | Rockyg: +1 | 23:37 |
| jimhaselmaier | Rockyg: +1 | 23:37 |
| Rockyg | jimhaselmaier: +1 | 23:37 |
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| bear_field | Rockyg: +1 | 23:37 |
| barrett | jimhaselmaier: In many cases I don't think the use case author knows all of the projects it impacts. There is a section in the template to capture what they do know | 23:37 |
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| jimhaselmaier | barrett: +1 | 23:38 |
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| Shamail | geoffarnold: we might not have liasons for this phase, but we should make sure each WG knows that the window for submitting use-cases is open | 23:38 |
| sarob | im not sure i follow the workflow | 23:38 |
| Rockyg | Which means, that we should schedule cross wg reviews to capture other possible users | 23:38 |
| geoffarnold | +1 | 23:38 |
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| Shamail | Does anyone want to own drafting an email we can use to notify each WG? | 23:38 |
| Shamail | sarob: which worklfow comment? | 23:38 |
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| cloudrancher | Is there a place for versioning use cases to identify past changes and decisions. Sorry I'm not familiar with the options available | 23:38 |
| sarob | one dir for all use cases | 23:38 |
| sarob | all wg | 23:38 |
| geoffarnold | I just want to make sure that each WG is actively thinking "how's our Product pipeline going?" | 23:38 |
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| barrett | RockyG: Once we get our repo set, I wonder if we should assign people from this group to attend the other WG meetings and give an overview? | 23:38 |
| sarob | is that what y'all agreeing to? | 23:39 |
| Rockyg | sarob: to start with | 23:39 |
| barrett | sarob: yes | 23:39 |
| jimhaselmaier | I'm happy to draft an email explaining the process. | 23:39 |
| sarob | okay, im good then | 23:39 |
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| sarob | so my high level idea on tags | 23:39 |
| bear_field | barrett: i think that's critical | 23:39 |
| jimhaselmaier | (process re: submitting use cases.......why and how.) | 23:39 |
| sarob | would be the same | 23:39 |
| Rockyg | sarob: I heard your voice ring in my head with that "okay" statement | 23:39 |
| sarob | one dir with hundreds of use cases | 23:40 |
| Shamail | sarob: We were thinking that all use-cases could be in a single directory and the template would contain a "WG:" section... instead of entering a use-case per WG in a separate folder | 23:40 |
| barrett | Jimhaselmaier: If you could send a draft to our ML for feedback that would be great! | 23:40 |
| Shamail | sarob: this way we can just add multiple WGs to the same use-case if they have a common interest | 23:40 |
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| sarob | Shamail: ah, right | 23:40 |
| Shamail | jimhaselmaier: thanks! look forward to the draft | 23:40 |
| sarob | got it | 23:40 |
| sarob | good starting point | 23:40 |
| barrett | Sarob: Having watched the use case development prococess on WTE and Telco WG, I think that would be a great problem to have...though unlikely | 23:40 |
| jimhaselmaier | barret: I most definitely can. However I think we need the repo set up and finalized how we want people to use it. | 23:41 |
| Shamail | jimhaselmaier: +1 | 23:41 |
| bear_field | jimhaselmaier: +1 | 23:41 |
| barrett | jimhaselmaier: +1 | 23:41 |
| Rockyg | +1 | 23:41 |
| Shamail | Rockyg and sarob, I think you own getting the repo created. | 23:41 |
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| Shamail | No pressue. | 23:41 |
| Shamail | pressure* | 23:41 |
| Shamail | :) | 23:41 |
| Rockyg | So, how does a wg or person get to the merge point with a use case? | 23:42 |
| barrett | RockyG and Sarob are driving the repo setup and template validation for reviewing and comments | 23:42 |
| sarob | Rockyg: lets confer right after this meeting for 5 | 23:42 |
| Rockyg | sarob: will do | 23:42 |
| barrett | RockyG: Don't understand your question | 23:42 |
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| Rockyg | user submits usecase for review. It needs comments to flesh out, then somehow it gets merged and voila! It appears in the git repository | 23:43 |
| sarob | barrett: we will need a few people to have core reviewer rights | 23:43 |
| Rockyg | It won't appear until merged, which means +2s and +workflow | 23:43 |
| sarob | barrett: we need to set the standard to when the use case gets merged | 23:43 |
| Shamail | barrett: yeah, but is the repo our own or will we be sharing with cross project? | 23:43 |
| sarob | Shamail: sharing | 23:44 |
| Shamail | sarob: you were going to build the tox tests too right? | 23:44 |
| sarob | thats part of use creating the dir | 23:44 |
| sarob | Shamail: right | 23:44 |
| barrett | RockyG/Sarob: Can you work this out as part of your action item or do you need more discussion or help? | 23:44 |
| Shamail | barrett: +1, let's come up with a plan and share it via ML. | 23:45 |
| sarob | Shamail: good plan | 23:45 |
| Rockyg | lots of it, yeah. We can circle back next week for acl stuff if it's not answered | 23:45 |
| barrett | I/m concerned that creating Core Reviewers could be an issue and delay | 23:45 |
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| barrett | RockyG: +1 | 23:46 |
| sarob | barrett: could be | 23:46 |
| Shamail | barrett: +1, but I think we will need them unless the cross project team is fine with +2 and workflow | 23:46 |
| Rockyg | We need a dashboard, too, so we can see reviews of usecases in flight | 23:46 |
| jimhaselmaier | What's the goal of approving? That the use case is understandable? Or that it's important enough to work on? Something else? | 23:46 |
| sarob | barrett: if it is a big blocker, then we may need to consider a seperate repo | 23:46 |
| Shamail | Rockyg: I think that will be useful but can probably wait past the 6/24 deadline | 23:46 |
| jimhaselmaier | I'm asking a bit rhetorically. | 23:46 |
| sarob | barrett: id rather not if we can help it | 23:46 |
| jimhaselmaier | We just need to be sure. | 23:46 |
| Shamail | jimhaselmaier: making sure it is understandable and has the necessary fields populated | 23:47 |
| sarob | jimhaselmaier: id like the bar to merge be very low | 23:47 |
| geoffarnold | "core reviewers" isd OpenStack culture code for "quality process" | 23:47 |
| barrett | So the short term Action Items beyond the repo is the sarob: +1 | 23:47 |
| Rockyg | jimhaselmaier: turning a draft use case into a more polished one | 23:47 |
| Shamail | sarob: +1, but we have to make sure that we don't omit information... there is a line between low bar and missing info | 23:47 |
| barrett | Ooops | 23:47 |
| sarob | Shamail: right | 23:47 |
| bear_field | Shamail: +1 prioritization should be separate from use case merge | 23:47 |
| sarob | bear_field: +1 | 23:48 |
| barrett | bear_field: +1 | 23:48 |
| jimhaselmaier | bear_field: +1 | 23:48 |
| geoffarnold | +1 | 23:48 |
| Shamail | bear_field: Prioritization is a topic we are deferring for now | 23:48 |
| Shamail | for this initial run | 23:48 |
| bear_field | understood | 23:48 |
| sarob | id like the cores to review if there is extreme use case over lap and if the content is complete | 23:48 |
| sarob | thats it | 23:48 |
| Shamail | sarob: care to do an #action for you and Rockyg | 23:48 |
| sarob | noooo | 23:49 |
| Shamail | hahaha | 23:49 |
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| Rockyg | nooo mr. billllllll!!!!!!! | 23:49 |
| sarob | #action sarob, rockyg post product-team repo plan to ML | 23:49 |
| Shamail | ty | 23:49 |
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| Shamail | barrett: we have 10 min left, how do you want to proceed with the remaining time? | 23:50 |
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| jimhaselmaier | #action jimhaselmaier to draft email and send to ML after repo plan established. | 23:50 |
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| Shamail | only sarob wields the power :D | 23:50 |
| jimhaselmaier | :-) | 23:50 |
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| bear_field | :) | 23:51 |
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| Rockyg | mra ha ha! | 23:51 |
| Shamail | barrett, are you here? | 23:51 |
| barrett | yup | 23:51 |
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| barrett | Walk through the upcoming Action Items? | 23:52 |
| Shamail | What should we cover? We will run out of time soon. | 23:52 |
| Shamail | barrett: +1 | 23:52 |
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| barrett | Internal Communications: Develop Terminology, backgrounder and updatewiki, Community Socialization Plan (user groups, mid-cycle meet-ups)- Owner Shamail and Hugh | 23:52 |
| barrett | Due 6/10 | 23:52 |
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| barrett | We talked about the repo: That's owned by Rocky and Sean due 6/10 | 23:53 |
| * sarob crushing pressure | 23:53 | |
| barrett | Recruit new members: Goal is to have 80% of theOpenStack contributions represented in this team. IBM, VMWare, SUSE - Owners: Shamail and Carol - due 6/14 | 23:54 |
| Shamail | lol | 23:54 |
| barrett | Shamail: We should talk about our plan for this one | 23:54 |
| Shamail | barrett: +1 | 23:54 |
| Shamail | i'll email you | 23:54 |
| barrett | Shamail: Thanks | 23:54 |
| Rockyg | rackspace? barrett: talk to Van about someone from there. | 23:54 |
| Shamail | Hugh is from Rackspace | 23:55 |
| barrett | RockyG: Good point! | 23:55 |
| Rockyg | Shamail: oh, good! | 23:55 |
| geoffarnold | barrett: +1 - and add Red Hat, Mirantis, if 80% is the target | 23:55 |
| barrett | Shamail: Even better point: :-) | 23:55 |
| sarob | 5 mins | 23:56 |
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| barrett | Everyone has the action to create and post their use cases between 6/10 - 6/14. Even though the repo is WIP, we can all start working on this now. | 23:56 |
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| barrett | Think that's the upcoming Action Items | 23:56 |
| bear_field | where can we review use cases until repo is ready? | 23:56 |
| Shamail | PS: If any of these action items are interesting to you. Please chime in... anyone can help with any items that feel strongly about | 23:56 |
| Shamail | that they* | 23:57 |
| barrett | We can put them in the google directory here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxtM4AiszlEyfllFelZYR2RqNDFfWVRvWWtlb09laGxwR2ljc3UxVEl5VEpfMEhicnlxUFk&usp=sharing&tid=0BxtM4AiszlEyfkJOeEFGaVEwZVk2ZHU5NHR6My1idmVLcEd0aXc1Vy1jVzhvb0tvWm9QV1U | 23:57 |
| bear_field | thumbusp | 23:57 |
| barrett | Same area where I posted the rest of the info for this meeting | 23:57 |
| Shamail | Thanks barrett, great summary! Lots to do... the fun will begin after we have collected use-cases | 23:58 |
| barrett | Sarob: Can you #link that? | 23:58 |
| sarob | #link https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxtM4AiszlEyfllFelZYR2RqNDFfWVRvWWtlb09laGxwR2ljc3UxVEl5VEpfMEhicnlxUFk&usp=sharing&tid=0BxtM4AiszlEyfkJOeEFGaVEwZVk2ZHU5NHR6My1idmVLcEd0aXc1Vy1jVzhvb0tvWm9QV1U | 23:58 |
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| Rockyg | cool | 23:58 |
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| Shamail | Can I make a brief, un-related, but relevant to this audience type of an audience comment? | 23:58 |
| barrett | Sarob: Thanks | 23:58 |
| barrett | Shamail: go for it | 23:59 |
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| Shamail | You may have seen the message from Egle regarding DefCore on our mailing list... I think as product management function representatives of our orgs, we should also distribute information internally | 23:59 |
| sarob | 1 min | 23:59 |
| Shamail | to that extend, please see http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/product-wg/2015-May/000421.html | 23:59 |
| Shamail | share this message inside your orgs so people can become familiar with defcore/interop | 23:59 |
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