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| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:01 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 23 08:01:21 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:01 |
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| anteaya | hello | 08:01 |
| eantyshev | hello! | 08:01 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: how are you? | 08:01 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: me great, but our CI experienced connectivity problems with review.openstack.org yesterday at around 15:00 UTC | 08:02 |
| anteaya | do tell? | 08:03 |
| * anteaya looks up logs | 08:03 | |
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| anteaya | I wasn't online at that time | 08:03 |
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| anteaya | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-infra/%23openstack-infra.2015-06-22.log.html#t2015-06-22T15:07:19 | 08:04 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: I occasionaly see talks in #openstack-infra about gerrit problems... | 08:04 |
| anteaya | yes | 08:04 |
| anteaya | it was being disussed at that time | 08:05 |
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| anteaya | looking to see if gerrit was restarted | 08:05 |
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| anteaya | so far I don't see it | 08:08 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: are you connected now to gerrit? | 08:08 |
| lennyb_ | Hi all, we experienced gerrit issues yesterday as well | 08:08 |
| lennyb_ | infra knew and were working on it | 08:08 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: now everything ok | 08:08 |
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| lennyb_ | btw, I am thinking to add workaround into our CI, in case of git issues to abort the job instead of failing it. | 08:09 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: great | 08:09 |
| anteaya | lennyb_: hi lenny | 08:10 |
| anteaya | what kind of workaround? | 08:10 |
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| eantyshev | lennyb_: how long did it last? could it be workarounded by retry? | 08:10 |
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| lennyb_ | anteaya: checking output of the ./stack.sh, perhaps even parse the log to see the error. I think retrying will put git in additional stress, | 08:11 |
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| lennyb_ | I need to see, maybe there is a plugin in the Jenkins for retries | 08:12 |
| anteaya | lennyb_: okay if you do try something use the ci-sandbox repo to expriment | 08:13 |
| lennyb_ | anteaya: sure. | 08:13 |
| anteaya | and make sure your results are 1) as you expect, 2) useful to others | 08:13 |
| anteaya | thanks | 08:13 |
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| anteaya | and yes, let's not additionally stress git.o.o | 08:14 |
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| anteaya | do we have anything more to say on this topic? | 08:16 |
| anteaya | I was offline yesterday and will be offline most of today | 08:16 |
| anteaya | so I wasn't keeping uptodate on the latest activity with gerrit | 08:17 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: say that I'm experiencing connection problems to review.o.o right now :( | 08:17 |
| anteaya | so I am just looking at the infra channel logs | 08:17 |
| anteaya | eantyshev: you are right now? | 08:17 |
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| eantyshev | anteaya: http://paste.openstack.org/show/316039/ | 08:18 |
| anteaya | someone just posted to infra that they were having an issue | 08:18 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: then perhaps I'll move there to discuss? | 08:19 |
| anteaya | no you don't have to | 08:19 |
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| anteaya | just stating the timing of the comment | 08:19 |
| anteaya | and that someone else seems to confirm that | 08:20 |
| anteaya | now why are you cloning from review.o.o at this point? | 08:20 |
| anteaya | is this to fetch the patch to be tested? | 08:20 |
| anteaya | or is this to clone cinder master? | 08:20 |
| anteaya | because all but the patch(es) to be tested should be cloned from git.o.o, not review.o.o | 08:21 |
| anteaya | can you see that? | 08:21 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: this is from devstack-gate, let me look closer... | 08:22 |
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| anteaya | thanks | 08:22 |
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| eantyshev | anteaya: found it, that's my code for applying custom review, good coincidence we can remove it now | 08:25 |
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| anteaya | okay great | 08:26 |
| anteaya | let's do that | 08:27 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: but there is common code for applying selected change: http://paste.openstack.org/show/316083/ | 08:27 |
| anteaya | and in future if you write any custom code, please clone from git.o.o | 08:27 |
| anteaya | and only clone from review to fetch the patch being tested | 08:27 |
| anteaya | rith | 08:28 |
| anteaya | that fetches the patch or patches to be tested | 08:28 |
| eantyshev | anteaya: understood | 08:28 |
| anteaya | and the only place you can get that is gerrit | 08:28 |
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| anteaya | but please get everything else you can from git.o.o | 08:28 |
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| eantyshev | anteaya: ok | 08:28 |
| anteaya | since that is the expectation we have and the workflow we use | 08:28 |
| anteaya | thanks | 08:29 |
| anteaya | anything more on this topic right now? | 08:29 |
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| eantyshev | anteaya: no | 08:29 |
| anteaya | does anyone have anything else they would like to discuss? | 08:29 |
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| anteaya | if no I don't want to keep you up | 08:32 |
| anteaya | any objection to me closing the meeting? | 08:32 |
| anteaya | hearing no objection I will now close the meeting | 08:33 |
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| anteaya | thanks everyone for your attendance and participation | 08:34 |
| anteaya | see you next week | 08:34 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 08:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 08:34 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 23 08:34:25 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:34 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-08.01.html | 08:34 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-08.01.txt | 08:34 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-08.01.log.html | 08:34 |
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| Qiming | #startmeeting senlin | 13:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 23 13:00:20 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:00 |
| Qiming | hello | 13:00 |
| yanyanhu | hi | 13:00 |
| haiwei | hi | 13:00 |
| Qiming | please add/edit agenda items here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda | 13:01 |
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| lkarm | hi | 13:01 |
| Qiming | first of all, action from last meeting | 13:02 |
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| Qiming | I have checked with openstacksdk about their roadmap/plan for migrating from stackforge to openstack | 13:02 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:03 |
| haiwei | good news? | 13:03 |
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| Qiming | the answer is the same as last time I checked | 13:05 |
| Qiming | they have been focusing on hardening the code at the moment | 13:05 |
| Qiming | migrating to openstack namespace is not yet the top priority | 13:05 |
| Qiming | it is on their their todo list | 13:05 |
| Qiming | judge it by yourself, haiwei, :) | 13:05 |
| Qiming | #topic test case coverage | 13:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "test case coverage (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:05 | |
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| Qiming | so ... for any project to be considered mature enough, it has to have a stable design, no radical changes to the architecture is expected | 13:05 |
| haiwei | it's on the todo list, so not bad I think | 13:06 |
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| Qiming | another criteria is to have test case coverage | 13:06 |
| Qiming | that is one of our big problems as of today | 13:06 |
| Qiming | if you check here: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/senlin/tree/senlin/tests | 13:06 |
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| jruano | hi qiming... sorry im late. on the heat call as well | 13:07 |
| Qiming | we have api, engine test cases there | 13:07 |
| Qiming | hi, jruano, glad you can attend both, ;) | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | agree with you, Qiming, and we also don't have integration test yet | 13:08 |
| Qiming | we don't have any test cases for policies, profiles, drivers, actions | 13:08 |
| Qiming | that would mean quite some work to do | 13:08 |
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| haiwei | what about the coverage of senlin currently, do you have a number of it Qiming | 13:08 |
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| Qiming | exactly, yanyanhu, funtional testing is also very important | 13:08 |
| Qiming | haiwei, check tox.ini, there is a command you can run and get the report | 13:09 |
| haiwei | ok | 13:09 |
| jruano | tox -e cover | 13:09 |
| Qiming | my rough estimation is about 50% or so | 13:17 |
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| haiwei | in the client side, seems less | 13:17 |
| lkarm | does openstack require a specific number for test coverage? | 13:17 |
| Qiming | before we are getting our hands dirty, I'd like to propose a split of the cluster_action.py file, for example | 13:17 |
| Qiming | it is too big, too complex | 13:17 |
| karolyn | Hi Qiming, sorry I'm late | 13:17 |
| Qiming | lkarm, not that I'm aware of | 13:17 |
| Qiming | nice see you here, karolyn | 13:17 |
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| Qiming | good test case coverage is a strong proof of code maturity | 13:17 |
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| Qiming | writing test cases is fun, :) | 13:17 |
| haiwei | ok, let's do it | 13:17 |
| Qiming | so, please try navigate the source tree, and find some modules to work on | 13:17 |
| haiwei | it also helps understand the function of senlin | 13:17 |
| Qiming | definitely, haiwei | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | maybe we can also add this work to TODO.rst | 13:17 |
| Qiming | please raise questions if you are not familiar with writing test cases | 13:17 |
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| haiwei | no problem | 13:17 |
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| Qiming | yes, give them a higher priority seems not a bad idea | 13:17 |
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| haiwei | no problem | 13:19 |
| yanyanhu | besides the exception type design, and I think we may also need to consider where to catch and how to conver these exceptions | 13:19 |
| yanyanhu | especially those ones from driver | 13:19 |
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| haiwei | exactly | 13:19 |
| Qiming | any questions so far? | 13:19 |
| yanyanhu | since I think most of them should not be exposed to enduser | 13:19 |
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| Qiming | yanyanhu, I believe haiwei is on the right track: catch them as internal errors, expose to users when necessary, with clear message translated | 13:20 |
| yanyanhu | hmm, actually when I was working the patch of lb-policy, sometimes, I'm a little confused about how to catch them | 13:20 |
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| Qiming | if you have come up an idea, we can discuss it | 13:21 |
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| Qiming | or we can discuss the problems you met | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | yes, you are right. Just I'm thinking something more detailed, e.g. whether we should catch exception in create_lb or attach method in lb_policy module | 13:21 |
| yanyanhu | like in this patch | 13:22 |
| yanyanhu | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/188691/ | 13:22 |
| haiwei | yanyanhu, I saw your patch, currently raise exception.Error is ok, I think, you can also raise exception.InternalError, if you are sure that is an internal error | 13:22 |
| Qiming | in that case, I'd suggest we start with a better structure of the lb specific code | 13:22 |
| Qiming | once the layer/structure is there, we will have a better idea how to catch/filter/translate exceptions | 13:22 |
| yanyanhu | haiwei, yes, I think the type of exception that raised from driver should be finally changed | 13:22 |
| haiwei | in the future, we will delete exception.Error and use exception.InternalError instead | 13:23 |
| yanyanhu | Qiming, yes, this is what I'm thinking | 13:23 |
| Qiming | haiwei, +1 | 13:23 |
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| Qiming | yanyanhu, still reading your patch, will post comments tomorrow | 13:23 |
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| yanyanhu | ok, thanks | 13:24 |
| Qiming | okay, let's move on | 13:24 |
| Qiming | #topic talk proposal for Tokyo summit | 13:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "talk proposal for Tokyo summit (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:24 | |
| Qiming | the deadline is drawing near, we will have some company internal reviews before submission | 13:24 |
| yanyanhu | again? | 13:25 |
| Qiming | I hope someone from the team can get an opportunity to give the audience a deepdive | 13:25 |
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| Qiming | not just a design summit session, I mean a talk for the conference | 13:25 |
| haiwei | we have propose one | 13:26 |
| yanyanhu | that will be great | 13:26 |
| Qiming | lkarm, karolyn, jruano, do you have travel plans for the summit? | 13:26 |
| jruano | i will be attending | 13:26 |
| lkarm | I'm trying to get my team to send me but nothing official yet | 13:26 |
| jruano | so i am more than willing to help | 13:26 |
| Qiming | okay, in any case, I will propose haiwei to be one of the presenters | 13:27 |
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| haiwei | we can have a session held by more than one person | 13:27 |
| Qiming | haiwei is located in Tokyo | 13:27 |
| haiwei | yes, I am 100% there I think :) | 13:27 |
| Qiming | if, for any reasons, we cannot go there, there is still be someone showing up | 13:27 |
| yanyanhu | right :) | 13:28 |
| haiwei | you are sure coming, right? | 13:28 |
| haiwei | Qiming | 13:28 |
| Qiming | I'll start a draft of the talk proposal and send you all for review tomorrow | 13:28 |
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| Qiming | haiwei, nothing official yet | 13:28 |
| Qiming | hopefully, I will be there, :) | 13:28 |
| karolyn | I'm with Lisa, we are hoping, but nothing official yet | 13:29 |
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| Qiming | karolyn, let's try our best, :) | 13:29 |
| haiwei | Tokyo is not far from Beijing, you can come I think, Qiming | 13:29 |
| Qiming | just refreshed the agenda wiki, nothing was added besides these topics I have in mind | 13:30 |
| Qiming | haiwei, sure, I will swim there | 13:30 |
| Qiming | #topic open discussions | 13:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:31 | |
| Qiming | anything you want to talk about? | 13:31 |
| yanyanhu | hi, Qiming, I'm thinking whether we should give a time schedule for each TODO item | 13:31 |
| haiwei | about the presentation, you will mainly use the slides shown in the last summit? | 13:31 |
| haiwei | agree | 13:32 |
| yanyanhu | to make it easier to track their progress | 13:32 |
| Qiming | okay, a schedule sounds good | 13:32 |
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| yanyanhu | maybe just a brief plan given by the owner | 13:32 |
| Qiming | I've copied the milestones for Liberty cycle | 13:32 |
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| lkarm | yeah i think having a schedule is a good idea | 13:33 |
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| Qiming | we can assign todo items to each milestone: L2, L3, for example | 13:33 |
| yanyanhu | yes, something like that | 13:33 |
| Qiming | should we use blueprints for test cases? | 13:34 |
| yanyanhu | I think it's a good idea | 13:34 |
| haiwei | I think it's not bad | 13:34 |
| yanyanhu | maybe one bp for each module | 13:35 |
| Qiming | or bug reports? | 13:35 |
| Qiming | it looks a little weird to have bps for test cases | 13:35 |
| Qiming | how about we report each missing test case as a bug | 13:35 |
| haiwei | not bug reports, each module may need many patches to it | 13:36 |
| Qiming | then we track the "bugs" | 13:36 |
| jruano | +1 Qiming, i think so too... | 13:36 |
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| yanyanhu | hmm, if using bug report, I think the unit can be smaller, like lb policy, autoscaling policy | 13:36 |
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| Qiming | blueprints, to some extents, are for new features | 13:36 |
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| Qiming | yanyanhu, exactly like that | 13:36 |
| lkarm | yeah i bug report makes sensu and agree with yanyanhu should be smaller units | 13:37 |
| lkarm | *makes sense | 13:37 |
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| Qiming | #action everyone work hard to file "bugs" | 13:37 |
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| haiwei | a module a bug report? | 13:38 |
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| Qiming | yes, haiwei, that sounds a plan | 13:38 |
| Qiming | if the module is too big, like the cluster_action module I just mentioned, we may need to split the module first | 13:38 |
| haiwei | but to one module, you may need to submit many patches | 13:38 |
| Qiming | or in your patches, you can add tag: #partial-bug: #123456 | 13:39 |
| openstack | bug 123456 in xine-lib (Ubuntu) "podcast crashes amarok" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/123456 | 13:39 |
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| haiwei | It is difficult to handle big modules | 13:39 |
| Qiming | meetbot is smart | 13:39 |
| Qiming | haiwei, if the module is too big, we need to split either the module or the test case | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | just like 'partially implement blueprint' | 13:40 |
| Qiming | any module beyond 2000 lines would be a headache for maintenance | 13:40 |
| Qiming | it will cause a lot of rebases when people are working on the same module | 13:40 |
| haiwei | but if a patch is more than 100 lines, it's also difficult to review | 13:41 |
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| Qiming | for test cases, it won't be very difficult, haiwei, don't worry | 13:41 |
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| haiwei | ok, just like you said, we have a try | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | I think for the start point of test cases, it's difficult to avoid big patch... | 13:42 |
| Qiming | let's give it a try and see if it works | 13:42 |
| yanyanhu | ok | 13:42 |
| haiwei | ok | 13:42 |
| Qiming | plans are meant to be changed | 13:43 |
| Qiming | anything else? | 13:43 |
| haiwei | I will have a morning vocation again tomorrow :) | 13:43 |
| Qiming | we can end the meeting a little bit early? | 13:43 |
| Qiming | haiwei, package me, I want to go | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | yes, I guess so :) | 13:44 |
| jruano | oh, thomas said he will move heat meetings to wed to avoid conflict here | 13:44 |
| Qiming | thank you all for your time | 13:44 |
| haiwei | great | 13:44 |
| Qiming | let's move to #senlin | 13:44 |
| yanyanhu | yes, jruano, I also saw that reschedule | 13:44 |
| Qiming | #endmeeting | 13:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 13:45 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 23 13:45:05 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 13:45 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-06-23-13.00.html | 13:45 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-06-23-13.00.txt | 13:45 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-06-23-13.00.log.html | 13:45 |
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| bauzas | #startmeeting nova_scheduler | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 23 15:00:48 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is bauzas. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova_scheduler)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_scheduler' | 15:00 |
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| bauzas | morning folks | 15:01 |
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| bauzas | (or pick the one you are) | 15:01 |
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| edleafe | good $time_of_day to you | 15:01 |
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| edleafe | we should just adopt UGT: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html | 15:02 |
| bauzas | waiting the crowd | 15:02 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: interesting :) | 15:02 |
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| edleafe | alex_xu_ won't be on - he has a new daughter today | 15:02 |
| bauzas | \o/ | 15:03 |
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| edleafe | we're going to have a long wait if you want a crowd :) | 15:04 |
| bauzas | edleafe: well, I should say that Justin Bieber is there | 15:04 |
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| lxsli | o/ | 15:05 |
| edleafe | then I'm outta here | 15:05 |
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| NotJustinBieber | edleafe: do you prefer then ? | 15:05 |
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| edleafe | much better | 15:05 |
| NotJustinBieber | (btw. this nick is registered. so awesome) | 15:05 |
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| lxsli | I couldn't get xi :( | 15:06 |
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| NotJustinBieber | okay enough kidding, we're 3 | 15:06 |
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| nihilifer | hello everyone | 15:06 |
| bauzas | nihilifer: hi | 15:06 |
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| bauzas | so, let's start then | 15:07 |
| bauzas | #topic Specs process | 15:07 |
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| bauzas | so, we agreed on putting our review requests in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/liberty-nova-priorities-tracking | 15:07 |
| bauzas | I just stroked the specs which were merged | 15:07 |
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| bauzas | so, we're in a good shape for working | 15:08 |
| bauzas | at least the two main ones (request-spec-object and resource-objects) are approved for Liberty, thanks to jaypipes and lxsli | 15:08 |
| edleafe | Still waiting on NoValidHost reporting | 15:09 |
| bauzas | so, there are 2 specs requests waiting for approval | 15:09 |
| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/187739 | 15:09 |
| edleafe | seems like people wanted it to solve every problem instead of just one :) | 15:09 |
| bauzas | edleafe: yeah, I saw that | 15:09 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: I'm going to do another pass by today if I can, so if I'm happy, I could put that one as "given +1 from the subteam" | 15:10 |
| bauzas | edleafe: to be clear, I would like to see that spec worked for Liberty | 15:10 |
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| lxsli | edleafe: My preferred response to such is "that's a great idea you are welcome to propose in a follow-on spec" | 15:10 |
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| edleafe | bauzas: that actually happened | 15:11 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I think you scoped the spec correctly | 15:11 |
| edleafe | https://review.openstack.org/194204 | 15:11 |
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| * jaypipes on a hangout... | 15:11 | |
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| bauzas | edleafe: I was having some concerns about the scalability on that, so I need a few more time for thinking about that | 15:11 |
| edleafe | bauzas: Sure - it went through several scenarios before I settled on this one | 15:12 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I got your reply on the IO concern, I'm now still a little concerned about the memory usage | 15:12 |
| edleafe | bauzas: most were highly un-scalable | 15:12 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: agreed, hence why I need some time to review your spec - because I don't want to argue against something previously having a consensus | 15:12 |
| edleafe | bauzas: exactly. To reduce memory, I'd have to log every step | 15:12 |
| edleafe | bauzas: then that would clutter the logs uselessly | 15:13 |
| bauzas | edleafe: okay, lemme give some time to think about it | 15:13 |
| edleafe | of course | 15:13 |
| bauzas | edleafe: the real question behind that is "does that honestly need a spec ?' | 15:13 |
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| edleafe | Well, since there are concerns about the effect of the implementation, I'd say 'yes' | 15:14 |
| bauzas | edleafe: you're not changing the APIs (neither REST or RPC), you're not persisting something, you're not adding something in a dict etc. | 15:14 |
| bauzas | edleafe: okay, I would propose you to put the BP as questionable for the next nova meeting if it deserves a spec | 15:14 |
| bauzas | edleafe: because I've seen more controversial BPs getting approved without a spec | 15:15 |
| edleafe | bauzas: yeah, I got no feedback on the BP itself | 15:15 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I mean, we can still argue about the implementation | 15:15 |
| edleafe | so I wrote the spec | 15:15 |
| bauzas | edleafe: and discuss on technical details, but that can be done directly in the implementation | 15:15 |
| bauzas | edleafe: having no specs doesn't necessarly mean it's trivial :) | 15:15 |
| edleafe | well, part of the idea of a spec is to argue *before* time is spent on an implementation | 15:16 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: agreed, but like I said, I can see a general consensus on the design while some discussion happens on the implementatioon | 15:16 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: I mean, I saw nobody complaining about logging stuff - rather about detailsd | 15:16 |
| edleafe | bauzas: yeah, it's not a clearly defined border between "needs spec" and "no spec required" | 15:17 |
| bauzas | edleafe: so maybe it would be worth asking the question in a nova mereting | 15:17 |
| nihilifer | about the "does that honestly need a spec?" question | 15:17 |
| bauzas | edleafe: because we do have a topic for that | 15:17 |
| nihilifer | some time ago I "resurrected" an old spec, not approved for Juno | 15:17 |
| bauzas | edleafe: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 15:17 |
| bauzas | nihilifer: yup ? | 15:18 |
| nihilifer | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/181054/ | 15:18 |
| nihilifer | I had some doubts whether it needs spec or not | 15:18 |
| nihilifer | since it's a filter | 15:18 |
| nihilifer | but it also requires new conf option | 15:18 |
| bauzas | nihilifer: see my last comment :) | 15:18 |
| nihilifer | oh, it's you :) | 15:18 |
| nihilifer | that's what I wanted to ask about | 15:19 |
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| bauzas | nihilifer: so, there are some examples | 15:19 |
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| bauzas | nihilifer: see http://docs.openstack.org/developer/nova/devref/kilo.blueprints.html#when-is-a-blueprint-needed | 15:20 |
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| bauzas | nihilifer: given your proposal, I can see it as a self-contained change | 15:20 |
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| nihilifer | bauzas: ok, then I will just begin work on it | 15:21 |
| nihilifer | bauzas: thanks for clarification | 15:21 |
| bauzas | nihilifer: the same as for edleafe, I would recommend you to officially ask in https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 15:21 |
| bauzas | nihilifer: but I'm clearly pro-BP only | 15:22 |
| bauzas | nihilifer: in case of a needed spec, just resurrect it | 15:22 |
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| lxsli | my 2p is I'd like a "trivial specs" process, so in cases like this where someone has taken the trouble to write a spec, we can fast-track it rather than abandoning the spec | 15:22 |
| edleafe | bauzas: I prefer the spec discussions myself | 15:22 |
| bauzas | nihilifer: hence the formal question 'do I need a spec' during the nova meeting | 15:22 |
| lxsli | that's not really a subject for the scheduler meeting though | 15:22 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: my idea on that is that we can't hardly assume the current spec backlog | 15:23 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: so, we probably indeed need some way to ask for drafting out a design doc if needed | 15:23 |
| bauzas | but only if needed | 15:23 |
| lxsli | bauzas: things "too simple to need a spec" naturally make for easy, quick spec reviews though, no? | 15:23 |
| bauzas | edleafe: see the examples on the link I provided | 15:23 |
| lxsli | bauzas: and this process may reveal it wasn't quite as simple as was initially thought | 15:24 |
| bauzas | edleafe: there are 2 examples of filters changes not requiring a sepc | 15:24 |
| edleafe | bauzas: agreed | 15:24 |
| bauzas | lxsli: agreed, that's an on-going improvment process | 15:24 |
| lxsli | I may be biased because I find writing in English quite easy ^^; | 15:24 |
| bauzas | lxsli: so I will officially ask johnthetubaguy to ask for specs written in French only | 15:25 |
| bauzas | enough kidding | 15:25 |
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| bauzas | last spec is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/179224/ | 15:25 |
| bauzas | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/179224/ | 15:25 |
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| bauzas | still needs some approval, because there is a REST API change | 15:26 |
| bauzas | (plus a behavioural change) | 15:26 |
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| bauzas | so I chatted with jaypipes, let's see if he will obviously kill my idea or support it :) | 15:26 |
| bauzas | any specs to mention before we move on ? | 15:27 |
| lxsli | doesn't seem obviously crazy | 15:27 |
| lxsli | yes | 15:27 |
| lxsli | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/84906 | 15:27 |
| bauzas | lxsli: feel free to review the spec, I could mark it as 'given +1 from a subteam member' accordingly :) | 15:27 |
| edleafe | lxsli: emphasis on 'obviously' :) | 15:27 |
| lxsli | this got merged for Juno but afaik nothing has happened with it | 15:27 |
| lxsli | bauzas: dansmith assigned me a tonne of work to do with no-more-soft-delete, I've been wading through that :( | 15:28 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: no excuses, you gotta review ! | 15:28 |
| dansmith | lxsli: assigned? :P | 15:28 |
| dansmith | lxsli: it's much appreciated though | 15:28 |
| lxsli | dansmith: suggested ^^ | 15:28 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: don't you work 24x7 ? | 15:28 |
| lxsli | I am strenuously avoiding that! | 15:28 |
| bauzas | anyway, so back to 84906 | 15:29 |
| bauzas | lxsli: that spec would require a refresh for Liberty anyway, so there are litterally very little chances we could work on it for this cycle | 15:29 |
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| lxsli | yeah, does it seem plausible for Mita ? | 15:29 |
| bauzas | lxsli: also, I think some work has to be done before that one | 15:29 |
| bauzas | lxsli: don't say the name :p | 15:30 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: so, even Muppet, I dunno | 15:30 |
| lxsli | Sorry, Muppet :) | 15:30 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: ndipanov is planning to work on something about claims within the scheduler, and also fix the missing gaps with claims for Libertyy | 15:31 |
| bauzas | lxsli: sec, giving you the specs | 15:31 |
| lxsli | bauzas: awesome, thanks | 15:31 |
| bauzas | lxsli: so I would definitely prefer ndipanov's work be done before we persist those | 15:31 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: and honestly, I would also prefer resource-objects to be landed *before* that | 15:31 |
| lxsli | bauzas: that's cool, just getting a sense of where we are | 15:31 |
| lxsli | yep definitely | 15:31 |
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| lxsli | I still need to look at John's scheduler-evolution thing :( | 15:32 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: so the specs are | 15:32 |
| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/191226 | 15:32 |
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| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/193576/ | 15:32 |
| bauzas | lxsli: I still need to provide an update too | 15:32 |
| bauzas | lxsli: I basically promised it to johnthetubaguy | 15:32 |
| edleafe | bauzas: also https://review.openstack.org/187739 | 15:32 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: your point on that one? thought we discussed about it before ? | 15:33 |
| edleafe | bauzas: I thought you were listing outstanding specs needing review | 15:34 |
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| lxsli | edleafe: that's a no-valid-host spec, did you paste the wrong one? | 15:34 |
| bauzas | edleafe: oh, you mean the specs being worked for Liberty ? yeah, we're tracking them | 15:34 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: no worries, I'm trying to keep the etherpad of doom up-to-date | 15:34 |
| bauzas | ok, moving on ? | 15:34 |
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| bauzas | 1 | 15:35 |
| bauzas | 2 | 15:35 |
| bauzas | ... | 15:35 |
| bauzas | 3 ? | 15:35 |
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| bauzas | #topic Open discussion | 15:35 |
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| bauzas | oh sec | 15:35 |
| bauzas | #undo | 15:35 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x9668350> | 15:35 |
| bauzas | #topic new meeting time | 15:36 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: you had an action for this | 15:36 |
| edleafe | jaypipes said that Monday might be a little better than Tue-Wed | 15:36 |
| edleafe | I'm wondering if it's worth doing another Doodle to see if that would work for everyone | 15:37 |
| ndipanov | persist what bauzas ? | 15:37 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: fair | 15:37 |
| lxsli | edleafe: Monday is fine for me | 15:37 |
| edleafe | ok, then I'll send out the doodle message later today | 15:37 |
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| edleafe | #action edleafe to create Doodle for Monday meeting options | 15:38 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/84906 given by lxsli | 15:38 |
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| bauzas | #action edleafe to create Doodle for Monday meeting options | 15:38 |
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| bauzas | ok, moving on | 15:38 |
| bauzas | #topic open discussion | 15:38 |
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| bauzas | I have nothing to say but that I'm incrementally updating the request-spec-object BP | 15:39 |
| bauzas | reviews are welcome if you're fed up by reviewing specs | 15:39 |
| xyhuang | hey guys may i have 1 more request for review... | 15:39 |
| xyhuang | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/193635 | 15:39 |
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| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:bp/request-spec-object,n,z | 15:39 |
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| bauzas | xyhuang: strange, I thought I said it needs a spec | 15:40 |
| bauzas | xyhuang: because it changes the interface between nova and the scheduler | 15:41 |
| xyhuang | thanks bauzas, will do a spec | 15:41 |
| bauzas | xyhuang: that's MHO, probably someone could say something else | 15:42 |
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| lxsli | +1 to spec | 15:42 |
| edleafe | bauzas: I would tend to agree | 15:42 |
| bauzas | xyhuang: that said, I wrote a spec for amending the future RequestSpec object by passing a destination host, so yeah I would love a spec still | 15:42 |
| bauzas | xyhuang: do you know about http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/liberty/approved/request-spec-object.html ? | 15:43 |
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| xyhuang | bauzas: yes | 15:43 |
| lxsli | xyhuang: have you seen this? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/184534/ | 15:43 |
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| xyhuang | oh probably no... | 15:44 |
| lxsli | xyhuang: I've only just seen your patch but it may make sense to provide the network info as resource objects | 15:44 |
| bauzas | lxsli: hence a spec, because I wonder if that's a compute resource or a request information | 15:44 |
| lxsli | xyhuang: there's already an implementation patch, for reference: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128992/ | 15:45 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: if we claim about it, then you're right | 15:45 |
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| xyhuang | lxsli: thanks will check it out | 15:45 |
| lxsli | xyhuang: very welcome :) | 15:45 |
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| bauzas | xyhuang: so yes, I think you should consider how to provide that information/resource to the scheduler | 15:46 |
| bauzas | hence the specd | 15:46 |
| bauzas | spec | 15:46 |
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| xyhuang | i see | 15:46 |
| xyhuang | so a spec will be done | 15:46 |
| bauzas | xyhuang: that said, do you know that there is a spec freeze deadline by Thur ? | 15:46 |
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| xyhuang | not aware of that, but will do it asap | 15:47 |
| bauzas | xyhuang: as you would probably require either resource-objects or request-spec-object to be implemented, I think it's difficult to merge the implementation by Liberty but rather the M cycle | 15:47 |
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| lxsli | Yes I agree - it's very unlikely it can be done in L | 15:48 |
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| xyhuang | would it be possible to add it based on the current arch of request-spec? as this may be a small change | 15:49 |
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| bauzas | xyhuang: that's the design discussion which needs to be done | 15:49 |
| bauzas | xyhuang: I mean, is it something that nova-compute is reporting to the scheduler, or is that only a hint given by the user ? | 15:50 |
| lxsli | xyhuang: we want to be more strict about what can be in request-spec to aid Nova back-compatibility and stability | 15:50 |
| xyhuang | ok | 15:50 |
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| lxsli | xyhuang: so adding extra stuff to it will make that more difficult, I expect core team will prefer to wait until it's tidier | 15:51 |
| xyhuang | ok i see, anyway i will write up the spec and we can discuss later in more details maybe | 15:51 |
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| bauzas | xyhuang: cool | 15:51 |
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| xyhuang | thanks | 15:52 |
| bauzas | okay, any other question/concern before we call that meeting done ? | 15:52 |
| edleafe | nope | 15:53 |
| edleafe | at least not from me :) | 15:53 |
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| lxsli | we seem to have moved to #nova anyway :) | 15:54 |
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| edleafe | lxsli: we never left :) | 15:55 |
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| bauzas | I'm still there | 15:55 |
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| bauzas | okay, saying bye bye to the meeting ? | 15:55 |
| bauzas | #endmeeting | 15:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:56 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 23 15:56:01 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:56 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_scheduler/2015/nova_scheduler.2015-06-23-15.00.html | 15:56 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_scheduler/2015/nova_scheduler.2015-06-23-15.00.txt | 15:56 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_scheduler/2015/nova_scheduler.2015-06-23-15.00.log.html | 15:56 |
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| davidjc | /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER davidjc kmgnficzqrmg | 16:26 |
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| krtaylor | #startmeeting third-party | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 23 17:00:16 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is krtaylor. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 17:00 |
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| krtaylor | Who's here for the Third Party CI Working Group meeting? | 17:00 |
| patrickeast | o/ | 17:00 |
| mmedvede | o/ | 17:00 |
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| krtaylor | hey patrickeast , mmedvede | 17:01 |
| marcusvrn | o/ | 17:01 |
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| krtaylor | hi marcusvrn | 17:01 |
| krtaylor | asselin, around? | 17:01 |
| asselin | o/ | 17:02 |
| krtaylor | hey asselin | 17:02 |
| asselin | hi | 17:02 |
| krtaylor | thanks everyone for joining | 17:02 |
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| krtaylor | I was hoping that a few would find the new time :) | 17:02 |
| asselin | this is a more convenient time for me | 17:03 |
| krtaylor | I'll continue to send out email reminders too | 17:03 |
| krtaylor | excellent | 17:03 |
| marcusvrn | for me too | 17:03 |
| mmedvede | +1 | 17:03 |
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| krtaylor | it was hard to find a time that did not conflict with cinder or neutron | 17:03 |
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| krtaylor | lots of metings | 17:03 |
| krtaylor | and meetings | 17:03 |
| krtaylor | so, please spread the word, hopefully this time will agree with more people | 17:04 |
| krtaylor | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#6.2F23.2F15_1700_UTC | 17:04 |
| krtaylor | there's the link for todays agenda | 17:04 |
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| krtaylor | #topic Common CI virtual sprint | 17:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Common CI virtual sprint (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:06 | |
| krtaylor | asselin, your up first, do you have any thing to discuss for the sprint | 17:06 |
| krtaylor | you're | 17:06 |
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| asselin | just requesting review os zuul patches: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:downstream-puppet+owner:%22Fabien+Boucher+%253Cfabien.boucher%2540enovance.com%253E%22+status:open,n,z | 17:06 |
| asselin | fbo has been working on them. I'd like to prioritize these reviews so we can merge this one next | 17:07 |
| asselin | fbo_, ping if you're around | 17:07 |
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| asselin | goal is to get as much done before the sprint, so we can really finish then | 17:08 |
| asselin | then=during the sprint | 17:08 |
| krtaylor | sounds like a good plan | 17:09 |
| krtaylor | the etherpad is listed in the agenda | 17:09 |
| krtaylor | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint | 17:09 |
| krtaylor | for completeness | 17:09 |
| asselin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:downstream-puppet+owner:%22Fabien+Boucher+%253Cfabien.boucher%2540enovance.com%253E%22+status:open,n,z | 17:09 |
| krtaylor | mmedvede, I see you ave reviewed some | 17:09 |
| mmedvede | yes, I did, but I need to do more. I have actually been using some patches for our deploy | 17:10 |
| asselin | mmedvede, wow nice | 17:10 |
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| krtaylor | can anyone else review? | 17:10 |
| * krtaylor takes a look | 17:11 | |
| marcusvrn | I can try it, I review the code, but I need to test in my deploy to ensure that's working | 17:11 |
| asselin | ctlaugh_ said he's interested | 17:11 |
| asselin | marcusvrn, +1 | 17:12 |
| mmedvede | marcusvrn: exactly my sentiment, I do reviews after I test them manually | 17:12 |
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| mmedvede | I did not look into beaker testing yet | 17:12 |
| marcusvrn | I have a question, there's a simple way to pull the code and test it manually in a current deploy? | 17:12 |
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| marcusvrn | current deploy (zuul installed by asselin's scripts) | 17:13 |
| asselin | marcusvrn, i've been pulling them manually in my /etc/puppet/modules/ | 17:13 |
| asselin | e.g. /etc/puppet/modules/openstackci | 17:14 |
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| marcusvrn | asselin: hmmm nice | 17:14 |
| * krtaylor googles beaker | 17:14 | |
| asselin | sudo git checkout....fetch_head copied link from gerrit | 17:14 |
| asselin | marcusvrn, also used this approach: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/169117/ | 17:15 |
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| marcusvrn | asselin: excellent | 17:15 |
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| krtaylor | hm, beaker looks interesting | 17:16 |
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| krtaylor | asselin, anything else that you need help with pre-sprint? | 17:17 |
| asselin | krtaylor, http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/puppet-module-functional-testing.html | 17:17 |
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| asselin | that's the spek for testing puppet modules ^^ | 17:17 |
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| asselin | krtaylor, no | 17:17 |
| krtaylor | ah, that ties it together, thanks | 17:18 |
| krtaylor | #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/puppet-module-functional-testing.html | 17:18 |
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| krtaylor | any questions for asselin about the sprint? | 17:18 |
| krtaylor | next topic then | 17:19 |
| krtaylor | #topic Move spec to third-party-ci-tools repo | 17:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Move spec to third-party-ci-tools repo (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:19 | |
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| krtaylor | I didn't work on this partially because I wanted to get the spec done first | 17:19 |
| asselin | so just to clarify, there are 2 specs now | 17:20 |
| krtaylor | there really isn't a precedent for moving a spec to a different project, but we'll try to do it a seamlessly as possible | 17:20 |
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| krtaylor | yes, one for hosting, one for the complete monitoring solution | 17:21 |
| krtaylor | asselin, ^^^ | 17:21 |
| asselin | yeah...looking for links | 17:21 |
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| krtaylor | asselin, they are both in the agenda | 17:22 |
| asselin | in agenda :) | 17:22 |
| krtaylor | yes :) | 17:22 |
| krtaylor | ok, so I'm thinking I'll create a specs dir and copy sweston 's monitoring solution spec into it as-is | 17:23 |
| krtaylor | then we can work it there | 17:23 |
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| krtaylor | then I'll ask sweston to abandon that one | 17:23 |
| krtaylor | any questions? | 17:23 |
| asselin | if you keep the change id, will gerrit move it? | 17:23 |
| krtaylor | I was wondering that | 17:24 |
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| krtaylor | didn't have a chance to look into it | 17:24 |
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| sweston | sweston's tired ears perked up ... krtaylor I'll work with you on this | 17:24 |
| krtaylor | sweston, hey | 17:25 |
| sweston | krtaylor: hello!! | 17:25 |
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| krtaylor | thanks, asselin makes a good point | 17:25 |
| sweston | I think he is right | 17:25 |
| krtaylor | maybe you can just git add the spec to the new location | 17:25 |
| krtaylor | and keep all the history | 17:25 |
| krtaylor | that would be much preferred IMHO | 17:26 |
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| krtaylor | sweston, let me know when would be a good time, I'll be happy to help with that process | 17:26 |
| mmedvede | I think gerrit patchsets have project associated with it in the db, so not sure that would work without direct db editing | 17:27 |
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| sweston | krtaylor: ok, I think I will test it out on my gerrit server first, then move forward | 17:27 |
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| krtaylor | mmedvede, I know you can add a file in an --amend | 17:28 |
| asselin | yeah...if there's an issue, git review would likely complain similar to updating an abandoned patch... | 17:28 |
| krtaylor | oh, the change id is associated with a project? | 17:28 |
| krtaylor | oh | 17:28 |
| krtaylor | ok, that might force the other way then | 17:28 |
| krtaylor | ok, either way, we'll get it done this week | 17:29 |
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| krtaylor | sweston, thanks for looking at that, I know you are busy | 17:29 |
| krtaylor | anything elase on this? | 17:29 |
| krtaylor | else | 17:29 |
| sweston | k, we'll let everyone know how it shakes out, knowledge is good | 17:29 |
| * krtaylor can't type today | 17:29 | |
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| krtaylor | sweston, perfect | 17:30 |
| sweston | krtaylor: no worries, good to do something else than kernel drivers for a few minutes ;-) | 17:30 |
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| krtaylor | ok, next then is | 17:30 |
| krtaylor | #topic Spec to have infra host scoreboard | 17:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Spec to have infra host scoreboard (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:30 | |
| krtaylor | I finished a rough draft here: | 17:30 |
| krtaylor | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194437/ | 17:31 |
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| krtaylor | I would really appreciate reviews and comments | 17:31 |
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| asselin | krtaylor, is it will WIP? | 17:31 |
| asselin | still * | 17:32 |
| krtaylor | it is modeled after the codesearch hosting spec from fungi | 17:32 |
| krtaylor | asselin, yes, I marked it WIP | 17:32 |
| * fungi is not sure it's wise to copy from his specs. do so at your own risk ;) | 17:32 | |
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| krtaylor | fungi, it was very complete! | 17:33 |
| asselin | fungi, I really liked it... | 17:33 |
| krtaylor | anyway, I'd like to get some reviews done on it before allowing it to be considered for merge | 17:33 |
| krtaylor | I had some questions marked in the spec | 17:34 |
| krtaylor | should we have a storyboard story? | 17:34 |
| asselin | krtaylor, yes we should | 17:35 |
| krtaylor | it makes sense | 17:35 |
| asselin | storyboard migraton spec will copy over | 17:35 |
| krtaylor | ok, I'll take that as a todo | 17:35 |
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| krtaylor | #action krtaylor to create dashboard hosting story and revise the spec | 17:36 |
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| krtaylor | also, it would be good to have a primary assignee | 17:37 |
| krtaylor | I am open to suggestions :) | 17:37 |
| krtaylor | I listed me there, and I don't mind doing it, just open to anyone else driving it | 17:37 |
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| * krtaylor imagines everyone else taking one step back | 17:38 | |
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| krtaylor | ok, I'll drive it then | 17:39 |
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| krtaylor | at least for now | 17:39 |
| asselin | krtaylor, some other people might be interested just not present here now | 17:39 |
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| marcusvrn | krtaylor: what should primary assignee do? | 17:40 |
| krtaylor | asselin, true, I'll be happy to hand over at some future date | 17:40 |
| asselin | krtaylor, also once the tasks are in storyboard it's easier to divide and conquer | 17:41 |
| marcusvrn | s/do/does | 17:41 |
| krtaylor | marcusvrn, it's the person responsible for making sure it happens, including patches, docs, etc | 17:41 |
| krtaylor | asselin, good point | 17:41 |
| krtaylor | any questions about the content of the spec | 17:41 |
| krtaylor | has anyone read it yet? :) | 17:41 |
| * asselin read draft 1 :) | 17:42 | |
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| marcusvrn | krtaylor: I got it. I'll read it after this meeting | 17:42 |
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| krtaylor | pretty straight forward, new vm, spin up apache with puppet to serve it | 17:42 |
| patrickeast | sry was afk for a few min | 17:42 |
| * patrickeast looking at spec now | 17:43 | |
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| krtaylor | patrickeast, no worries | 17:43 |
| mmedvede | I have only skimmed it | 17:43 |
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| krtaylor | not sure we can review it section by section in 15 mins left | 17:44 |
| krtaylor | so, I'll ask everyone to go through it carefully and comment please | 17:44 |
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| patrickeast | will do | 17:45 |
| asselin | +1 | 17:45 |
| krtaylor | its a chance to increase your negative reviews :) | 17:45 |
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| marcusvrn | krtaylor: +1 | 17:45 |
| krtaylor | once it gets a few reviews and corrected, I'll take the WIP off | 17:46 |
| krtaylor | and, if it needs, I can discuss at an infra meeting | 17:46 |
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| krtaylor | any questions about the hosting spec? | 17:46 |
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| krtaylor | else onward | 17:47 |
| krtaylor | #topic Open Discussion | 17:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:47 | |
| krtaylor | so I'll open the floor | 17:47 |
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| krtaylor | any thoughts on how to increase the involvement in these meetings? | 17:48 |
| krtaylor | that was my todo from summit | 17:48 |
| krtaylor | weekly reminders to openstack-dev, check, what else? | 17:49 |
| patrickeast | free cookies? | 17:49 |
| krtaylor | hehheh | 17:49 |
| marcusvrn | hahaha | 17:49 |
| krtaylor | I need to get more teams to come and tell us about their system, I think that has been a big success | 17:49 |
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| asselin | krtaylor, +1 | 17:50 |
| patrickeast | yea thats a good way to get others involved | 17:50 |
| krtaylor | we've only done a handfull of those | 17:50 |
| asselin | those are great | 17:50 |
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| patrickeast | we could just go down the list of ci systems and reach out | 17:50 |
| patrickeast | asking them to talk to us | 17:50 |
| krtaylor | patrickeast, exactly | 17:50 |
| asselin | +1 | 17:50 |
| marcusvrn | maybe in the cinder channel which CI is "new" and too many teams are working on it | 17:51 |
| krtaylor | marcusvrn, I agree that a lot of teams are new and using all their time to get it running | 17:51 |
| krtaylor | but there is a lot of benefit of using that tension to better what we have, a huge part of that is the influence we have made on the common-ci effort | 17:52 |
| * krtaylor applauds asselin | 17:53 | |
| asselin | thanks | 17:53 |
| krtaylor | but it is a common theme that teams don't have time to do anything "extra" | 17:53 |
| marcusvrn | krtaylor: yep... | 17:53 |
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| krtaylor | not sure how we can fix that, except to help the teams explain to their management that this is a big commitment | 17:54 |
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| krtaylor | much bigger than anyone realizes just starting out | 17:54 |
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| marcusvrn | krtaylor: that what I did.....It was not easy....hehehe | 17:55 |
| asselin | yes....that's why common ci is so important....waste less effort reinventing the wheel and chasing bugs | 17:55 |
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| krtaylor | asselin, agreed, and with the TPCIWG repo, we can also share everything else | 17:55 |
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| krtaylor | now we just need to get more involvement, with 100+ teams it is bizarre that we have 5 or so regulars | 17:56 |
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| * krtaylor gets off his soapbox | 17:57 | |
| krtaylor | anything else in the last few minutes? | 17:57 |
| asselin | i do...one sec | 17:57 |
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| breton | hello | 17:57 |
| asselin | please take a look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/192819/ | 17:58 |
| * krtaylor looks | 17:58 | |
| asselin | Add the ability to abort jobs on a patch merge | 17:58 |
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| asselin | #link Add the ability to abort jobs on a patch merge https://review.openstack.org/#/c/192819/ | 17:58 |
| krtaylor | asselin, yes, good patch, I'll comment | 17:58 |
| asselin | thanks | 17:59 |
| marcusvrn | asselin: that's really interesting... I'll review it too | 17:59 |
| peristeri | On the question of getting people involved, a "how-to" document can go a long way. | 17:59 |
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| asselin | peristeri, can you elaborate in -infra? | 18:00 |
| krtaylor | that's all for today, thanks everyone! | 18:00 |
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| krtaylor | #endmeeting | 18:00 |
| peristeri | asselin, sure | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 23 18:00:28 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-17.00.html | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-17.00.txt | 18:00 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-17.00.log.html | 18:00 |
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| asselin | breton, hi...are you here to 3rd party meeting? | 18:00 |
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| *** garthb__ has joined #openstack-meeting | 18:01 | |
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| morganfainberg | ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, stevemar, topol, wanghong https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:01 |
| ayoung | KEYSTONE! | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | it's that time of the week everyone | 18:01 |
| browne | hi | 18:01 |
| rodrigods | o/ | 18:01 |
| breton | asselin: nope, sorry, I didn't know it was running | 18:01 |
| asselin | breton, if so we'll chat in -infra | 18:01 |
| david8hu | \o | 18:01 |
| david8hu | o/ | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | morganfainberg: o/ | 18:01 |
| raildo | _o_ | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | Keith Stone! | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | olá :) | 18:01 |
| bknudson | I say "key", you say "stone" | 18:01 |
| bknudson | key | 18:01 |
| marekd | stone | 18:01 |
| gyee | \o | 18:01 |
| raildo | nova | 18:01 |
| raildo | ops | 18:01 |
| stevemar | key | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: congress? | 18:01 |
| bknudson | stone | 18:01 |
| samueldmq | **STONE** o/ | 18:01 |
| gyee | marco | 18:01 |
| stevemar | o/ | 18:01 |
| david8hu | olá amigo | 18:01 |
| marekd | polo | 18:01 |
| sdague | o/ | 18:02 |
| samueldmq | david8hu: :-) | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | ok ok so lets seeeeeee... | 18:02 |
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| morganfainberg | #startmeeting Keystone | 18:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 23 18:02:12 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Liberty-1 | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Liberty-1 (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| henrynash | (sneaks in late) | 18:02 |
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| morganfainberg | Liberty-1 was tagged... seconds ago | 18:02 |
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| morganfainberg | this means... we're up against our spec proposal freeze deadline | 18:02 |
| bknudson | yaay! | 18:02 |
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| iurygregory | o/ | 18:02 |
| ayoung | Pretty sure I've gotten 0 through the review process since the summit | 18:03 |
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| morganfainberg | if the spec isn't approved by the end of the week, we are likely going to need an email thread to just make sure we're on track. | 18:03 |
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| morganfainberg | just a "hey here is where we are with it, and this is reasonable to hit in liberty" | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | this is for API impacting changes | 18:03 |
| browne | so what's the final word on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/role-descriptions. are we okay without a spec? | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | non-api impacting changes can adhere to the previous l2 milestone | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | browne: sec. | 18:04 |
| bknudson | is there anything that anybody really wants to get in for L? | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | browne, that is so low priority | 18:04 |
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| bknudson | I need to know what spec reviews to focus on. | 18:04 |
| browne | yep agreed | 18:04 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, dynamic policy | 18:04 |
| htruta_ | bknudson: you'll soon have the reseller onw | 18:04 |
| htruta_ | one* | 18:04 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson: i think the only outstanding specs that need love are around reseller (is_domain, etc) and dynamic policy related | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: for the api-impacting freeze | 18:05 |
| raildo | bknudson, we need to decide the token things... so henrynash proposed this spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/193543/ | 18:05 |
| gyee | dynamic is a mother of all specs | 18:05 |
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| gyee | dynamic policy | 18:05 |
| ayoung | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/192422/ POPlicy by URL is required | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | we have either already approved the other API impacting...or it can wait until the next release | 18:05 |
| gyee | it has many childrens | 18:05 |
| bknudson | sounds like if I start looking at dynamic policy I'll never finish | 18:05 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson: i'll let you take that up with ayoung | 18:06 |
| ayoung | bknudson, I had an overview spec, but it was deemed "not a spec" | 18:06 |
| gyee | ayoung, can you prioritize the ones that are *realistic* for Liberty? | 18:06 |
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| dolphm | i have a substantially simpler groups-in-tokens draft that i should have up by tomorrow, assuming barbican folks are okay with a slightly different approach on their end | 18:06 |
| ayoung | gyee, my current state of mind says none of it. | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm: ok. | 18:06 |
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| ayoung | I'm freaking depressed | 18:07 |
| bknudson | I wouldn't approve an overview "spec" | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm: sounds good, lets keep that one on that one | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: that was why i -2'd it | 18:07 |
| samueldmq | gyee: we're still in the priorization process for L, we'll have a point on it later in this meeting | 18:07 |
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| samueldmq | ayoung: shhh plz, don't be depressed :-) | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: the overview spec was not really useful for us. samueldmq did a great job of moving it to the wiki | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: it is much much much better where it is now. | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | samueldmq: what was the link for the page? | 18:07 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg: thanks :-) | 18:07 |
| samueldmq | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/DynamicPolicies | 18:08 |
| marekd | samueldmq: can you link this wiki page? | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | thanks | 18:08 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: in terms of policy, I’d like to prioritise ensuring we can avoid the use of domain scoped tokens in L | 18:08 |
| marekd | samueldmq: oh, thanks | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash: that falls under reseller afaict | 18:08 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash: and yes, that is on the list | 18:08 |
| henrynash | ok | 18:08 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, and I think that all specs should be moved to the wiki and specs as they exist now should die, but I really don't feel like we are capable of making progress here | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: different conversation. | 18:08 |
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| samueldmq | ayoung: plz :( | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: i'm not opposed to it, but that is not something we can cover with what we have on the agenda today (we can discuss in -keystone as well) | 18:09 |
| htruta_ | henrynash, morganfainberg hope we have some room to define the project scoped token today | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | but i'm inclined to want that to be a ML topic | 18:09 |
| david8hu | better if this is a face to face discusion | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | ok | 18:09 |
| ayoung | we need to have the discussion with sdague before I can tell you what is worth pushing for | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: and that will be soon :) | 18:09 |
| samueldmq | we have a point for that | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | ok moving on: | 18:10 |
| samueldmq | yes | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Review of Keystone Blueprints for No-Spec Required | 18:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review of Keystone Blueprints for No-Spec Required (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:10 | |
| morganfainberg | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/role-descriptions | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | no one said this needed a spec | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | it is minor | 18:10 |
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| bknudson | it changes the api so it needs a apec | 18:10 |
| bknudson | spec | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | does it change the API? | 18:10 |
| gyee | yes | 18:10 |
| henrynash | hruta_: see my comemnt in gerrit on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/193543/ as the proposal for L | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | uhm | 18:10 |
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| morganfainberg | i think roles already have extra support | 18:11 |
| bknudson | should be a short one | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | this just amkes it a first class | 18:11 |
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| gyee | bknudson, nah, just use 'extra' :) | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | ok so, anyway browne: ^ this needs a spec. | 18:11 |
| htruta_ | henrynash, nice. was on my read list | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | please do a minimal one - there should be a lot of N/A in your spec. | 18:11 |
| bknudson | gyee: with extra you could store anything you want! | 18:11 |
| bknudson | policies! | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | since it isn't security, performance, etc | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | jamie is not here | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | skipping his topic for the moment | 18:12 |
| browne | morganfainberg: ok, thanks, np | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | on to the big one | 18:12 |
| ayoung | browne, I'm going to say no to role descriptions | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Dynamic Policies: current status, scope for L, cross-project requirements and next steps | 18:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Dynamic Policies: current status, scope for L, cross-project requirements and next steps (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:12 | |
| samueldmq | o/ | 18:12 |
| ayoung | roles should not even have ids. | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, samueldmq, sdague o/ | 18:12 |
| browne | ayoung: no in general or no for liberty? | 18:13 |
| sdague | o/ | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | so ... overview spec is now a wiki, as we said earlier | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/DynamicPolicies | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | this is a first try and still have some points to be clarified/defined, including | 18:13 |
| ayoung | OK, so DYn Policy has stalled trying to make sure we can handle sdague 's concerns ...specifically about microversions? | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | i) how to represent nova microversions, what support is needed on oslo.policy | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | ii )whether we should unify the policy files or not | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | samueldmq: any service microversions (nova is just the first) | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | those are the two points we'd like to address in this initial discussion :) | 18:13 |
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| sdague | ayoung: I think that's a pretty unfair characterization honestly | 18:13 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:13 |
| ayoung | I think that was the crux of what you were concerned about: that if a new version of Nova came out with new microversioned APIs, it would need to have the default policy embedded? | 18:14 |
| ayoung | sdague, I',m trying to understand your concern | 18:14 |
| breton | why do we even have policies as json and not as python functions? | 18:14 |
| sdague | breton: ++ | 18:14 |
| sdague | see my initial mailing list thread about embedding base policy in code | 18:14 |
| ayoung | breton, policy was designed as something that is tweakable in deployment | 18:14 |
| sdague | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-June/065496.html | 18:14 |
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| morganfainberg | at some level we need some amount of customization. but there is no reason we can't embed base policy in code (no technical reason) | 18:14 |
| ayoung | sdague, so, I thin I actually agree with you | 18:14 |
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| morganfainberg | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-June/065496.html | 18:15 |
| ayoung | but not quite as you might have seen it: | 18:15 |
| breton | having them pythonic would lets us use classes hierarchy and stuff | 18:15 |
| gyee | breton, not all security auditors know how to read python code | 18:15 |
| ayoung | gyee, stop | 18:15 |
| ayoung | that is not helpful | 18:15 |
| samueldmq | breton: gyee that's a separate conversation I think ... how to represent it | 18:15 |
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| morganfainberg | gyee: lets leave that out - no one knows how to read policy.json either | 18:15 |
| ayoung | the real issue is whether they are customizable buy the end user | 18:15 |
| ayoung | and I think the complaint is that the current policy mechanism is too brittle | 18:15 |
| ayoung | you can easily break things, etc | 18:15 |
| bknudson | from what I've seen of the default policies they're a long ways from what they should do. | 18:16 |
| ayoung | bknudson, agreed | 18:16 |
| bknudson | as far as giving you a deployment that prevents users from doing what they shouldn't | 18:16 |
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| ayoung | and that is what I've been trying to solve. sdague is also trying to solve a comparable problem with microversions, and I think the two have the possibility of conflicing, which is why I startexd with that | 18:16 |
| bknudson | e.g., the "nova" service user has "admin" | 18:16 |
| samueldmq | I think two main points we should be addressing here should be | 18:16 |
| samueldmq | i) how to represent nova microversions, what support is needed on oslo.policy | 18:17 |
| samueldmq | ii )whether we should unify the policy files or not | 18:17 |
| ayoung | samueldmq, hold on | 18:17 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: i agree with samueldmq | 18:17 |
| ayoung | the main point, samueldmq as we said before, is to try to get to "common meaning of policy" | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | but inverting the order | 18:17 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, I don't disagree, just he's jumping ahead | 18:17 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:17 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: ok | 18:18 |
| ayoung | let's define the problem: | 18:18 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: just making sure we're still on track | 18:18 |
| ayoung | so we start with but 968696. That is due to the admin role being origianlly defined as a global role | 18:18 |
| ayoung | that pattern spread, but we were working towards scope | 18:19 |
| ayoung | all roles should be scoped to some project or domain | 18:19 |
| ayoung | lets just use the word project to mean both for now | 18:19 |
| bknudson | why should all roles be scoped to a project? | 18:20 |
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| ayoung | so lets say that we first just want to get it so that all of the policy enforcement can deal with "admin on a project" as the primariy sdope of control | 18:20 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, I think you are misunderstanding | 18:20 |
| ayoung | roles are defined as assigned to a project | 18:20 |
| bknudson | you said "all roles should be scoped to some project or domain" and I asked why. | 18:21 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: defined as an assignment of a user with X role on Y Project? or are you saying something else? | 18:21 |
| ayoung | what I think you are asking is "should the power that implies be limited to resources in that project" | 18:21 |
| ayoung | bknudson, we don't have global roles in Keystone anymore. dolphm did away with them several releases ago | 18:21 |
| ayoung | pretty sure it was dolphm | 18:21 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, yes that is correct | 18:21 |
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| samueldmq | groups/domains ... | 18:22 |
| ayoung | samueldmq, users don't have roles in groups | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | ok so i have a silly question. | 18:22 |
| ayoung | and we are treateing domains as projects for this discussion | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | ignoring keystone [we're special in this case] | 18:22 |
| samueldmq | I think we should go directly to the points we're trying to address ... we won't have enough time to talk about all the details | 18:22 |
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| samueldmq | I'd prefer to say ... an approach is to unify policies, which has those advantags .. but there are some issues, as pointed out by sdague | 18:23 |
| ayoung | so...lets address the point that sdague and breton brought up | 18:23 |
| samueldmq | so people would be aware on the points we're diverging, and we could try to find solutions on the hard points | 18:23 |
| ayoung | "why is policy in json and not in python" | 18:23 |
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| ayoung | breton, I think the answer is that policy is really a cross cutting concern, and it was designed to be based on the role that comes in the token. What has happend, though, is that the scope of policy has been slowliy increasing to cover things beyond role based access control | 18:25 |
| ayoung | breton, sdague here is what I was thinking would match your concerns: | 18:25 |
| ayoung | each API has a scope check. That check says "make sure the scope of the token matches the scope of the API" and that logic is done in python | 18:26 |
| bknudson | what's the scope of an api | 18:26 |
| ayoung | bknudson, in the case of, say, a VM, it is the project that the VM is inside | 18:26 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, since the API actually has the Project ID in the URL, it is easy for Nova | 18:26 |
| ayoung | bknudson, for KEystone it is trickier, as the resources are referecned by ID | 18:27 |
| ayoung | and then we need to fetch the actual resource out of the backend prior to enforcing policy | 18:27 |
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| ayoung | what Nova needs to do is just confirm that the project ID in the URL matches the project_id on the resource | 18:27 |
| bknudson | does nova still have the project embedded in the URL? | 18:27 |
| ayoung | bknudson, it did on the APIs I saw | 18:28 |
| ayoung | bknudson, I am not assuming that to be the case everywhere | 18:28 |
| bknudson | although with microversioning I guess they could get rid of it | 18:28 |
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| morganfainberg | sdague: did we get rid of the project id in the requests? | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | sdague: for nova? | 18:28 |
| sdague | it does, though the intent once upon a time was to deprecate it | 18:28 |
| david8hu | nova has a admin_or_owner. owner check is based on project_id | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: but the scope (project id) is still in the auth_context | 18:28 |
| sdague | it's still there, this seems kind of deep in the weeds though honestly | 18:28 |
| ayoung | bknudson, and, it really doesn 't matter; it is up to the project to ensure that the scope of the request is correct, within the terms of the API | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | so ... | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | it doesn't matter | 18:28 |
| ayoung | so...lets say that we were to try and pull that out of the current policy | 18:29 |
| ayoung | that should not be changed by end users | 18:29 |
| sdague | because, part of the set of concerns that I'm bringing up are what you are going to get from a lot of projects | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | can we move beyond this point as we can determine scope from what is passed from middleware | 18:29 |
| sdague | the end game and what problems are trying to be solved aren't really clear anywhere | 18:29 |
| ayoung | sdague, what I am saying is, that part matches the concern you had. | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | and move back on track - what sdague is bringing up specifically | 18:29 |
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| ayoung | The part that we want dynamic is what role to give the user in order to execute the API | 18:29 |
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| bknudson | with the default policy it doesn't matter what role you have, you can boot an instance as long as you have any role on the project | 18:30 |
| sdague | * users should be able to discover their allowed permissions for a service in advance - that's at thing that wants to be solved | 18:30 |
| ayoung | sdague, OK, let me address that; | 18:30 |
| sdague | * projects would like to be able to ensure sane defaults are enabled with new code | 18:30 |
| ayoung | there are two views | 18:30 |
| ayoung | one is that you ask each endpoint "what policy..." and the other is that we centralize | 18:31 |
| ayoung | the first is kindof what you suggested with ad /polcy URL | 18:31 |
| ayoung | a /policy URL | 18:31 |
| sdague | sure, that was a way to address the discovery of policy by users or other services in a way that scales in the big tent | 18:31 |
| sdague | because the list of all things that connect to keystone is an unbounded unknow | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | sdague: ++ | 18:32 |
| ayoung | sdague, well, no, not unbounded. We have a list of registered endpoints | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | and each endpoint has a service | 18:32 |
| bknudson | so I'd do http://localhost/compute/policy? | 18:32 |
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| sdague | bknudson: that was my thinking | 18:32 |
| samueldmq | and get the policy for a service, it doesn't matter its version and exposed APIs | 18:33 |
| sdague | if you are a user you get something that looks like a policy.json over the wire that was customized to your user. If you were admin you could get a more global definition. | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | FYI: we're going to timebox this to 11:45 for this discussion | 18:33 |
| ayoung | sdague, so here is where that idea starts to conflict with dynamic policy | 18:33 |
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| bknudson | what's an admin? | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | so 12 more minutes (so we can hit the other topics) - we can come back after if needed | 18:34 |
| sdague | all the semantics would need to be worked out for such an interface, as it would be a contract that any service would need to implement that wanted to participate in dynamic policy | 18:34 |
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| ayoung | right now, a role is not specific to a service or endpoint. But each endpoint has their own way of interpreting it | 18:34 |
| sdague | bknudson: tbd, there should be some kind of admin that can get this | 18:34 |
| ayoung | lets give two possible approaches | 18:34 |
| ayoung | 1. COmpletely static policy | 18:35 |
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| ayoung | 2. dyanmic policy centralized in Keystone | 18:35 |
| sdague | ayoung: sure, I think moving services to service scoped roles is a good first step | 18:35 |
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| bknudson | we don't have static policy now. If you change the policy the server starts using it. | 18:35 |
| ayoung | if we go with 1, then to customize, the operator needs to write their own, distribute via puppet and make sure the policy is sane | 18:35 |
| ayoung | bknudson, what we have now is static | 18:36 |
| sdague | I don't think you'll find much resistance in moving nova from using admin to compute_admin | 18:36 |
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| morganfainberg | sdague: if there is significant resistance to that i don't know what to say :P | 18:37 |
| ayoung | sdague, yeah, I think we all want to enable service scoped roles, and a few other ways of namespcaing them too | 18:37 |
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| ayoung | so..even if we do that, we need to deal wioth workflows like nova boot that hit multiple services... | 18:37 |
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| ayoung | and making sure that the roles are sane across those | 18:37 |
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| henrynash | are we confusing the teh fact that a) we want to make it easy to “distribute policy” by have differnet mechanism to puppet (i.e. ceentralised in keysone, and all servcies get their policy from there), and b) the ability for a user to ask “what can I do on endpoint X”….to be me, these aren’t in conflvt | 18:37 |
| bknudson | seems like the resistance would be just in getting it merged since I assume there's no nova spec for it | 18:37 |
| sdague | ayoung: and, moving to scoped admin (and possibly other) roles would be a lot easier to move in with sane deprecation if we had the base policy in code, and we could realize the user was still specifying admin when they should have meant compute adming in their policy.json | 18:38 |
| ayoung | now...lets say an end user has customized tjheir policy in a statci deployment, and a new microversion comes out,,,then what | 18:38 |
| ayoung | I see two options | 18:38 |
| ayoung | 1. have a decent default | 18:38 |
| ayoung | 2. merge in the new stock policy with the modified policy | 18:38 |
| bknudson | I hope real deployments aren't using the default policy. | 18:38 |
| ayoung | both kinda suck, but in different ways | 18:38 |
| ayoung | bknudson, most are | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: i think the sane default would be the one i'd pick here. | 18:39 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, so...I would too | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: strictly because merging policy has a bigger surface area of "what can go wrong" | 18:39 |
| browne | bknudson: i think most real deployments use the default policy because it's too hard to customize | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | not because one is clearly better - the failures in merging are more likely | 18:39 |
| sdague | right, which was another reason why base policy in code was something we wanted | 18:39 |
| ayoung | I would say "If I don't have a rule that covers thiss you need to be an admin (as Nova defines it) to execute this API" | 18:39 |
| bknudson | scary | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: or whatever nova defines the base rule as. | 18:40 |
| samueldmq | sdague: and then updating the policy in keystone via /policy | 18:40 |
| sdague | bknudson: it's not scary, it's bad on us all for providing terrible defaults | 18:40 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, we should probably allow namespaced defaults. I muigjht even have a spec for that already | 18:40 |
| ayoung | so compute::default versus image::default | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: sure - i think we can alredy do that fwiw | 18:40 |
| ayoung | but..that preuspposed we have one policy file that covers both nova naglance..still up for debate. | 18:41 |
| sdague | samueldmq: so, honestly, I think a realistic set of L goals would be the namespacing and the /policy interface, and leave it at that | 18:41 |
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| ayoung | sdague, I don't like /poliucy | 18:41 |
| sdague | with those components, in M you could start building the dynamic bits on top | 18:41 |
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| samueldmq | sdague: and supporting microversions in oslo | 18:41 |
| ayoung | it means we are dependent on a change going in to every single project | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | sdague: would that include policy-in-code work? or still straight static | 18:41 |
| ayoung | we won;t get that for several releases | 18:41 |
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| sdague | morganfainberg: it should include policy-in-code | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | ok | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | just defining scope | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | :) | 18:42 |
| sdague | because I don't see how to deprecate out admin sanely to users without it | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | sdague: i could come up with a scheme, but i think pure code makes it easier | 18:42 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: what is inherently wrong with /policy | 18:42 |
| samueldmq | 2 minutes left .. any decisions on the scope ? | 18:42 |
| sdague | ayoung: so, I get this means that projects need to do a thing to be in the dynamic policy pool | 18:42 |
| sdague | but I think that's a good thing | 18:42 |
| samueldmq | for sure we need to address microversions in oslo.policy | 18:42 |
| ayoung | sdague, no | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: especially if that lets you ask the question of "what does nova let me do"? | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | samueldmq: thanks for watching the clock | 18:42 |
| ayoung | sdague, fetching dynamic policy is going to be part of keystone middleware | 18:43 |
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| ayoung | or it is oslo.policy | 18:43 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, what if there are 15 nova endpoints? Horizon is going to go and query each one? | 18:43 |
| samueldmq | what do we do when we upgrade a service ? | 18:43 |
| bknudson | what's a sane default for a new api? it could be "admin-only", but that doesn't seem right. | 18:43 |
| sdague | bknudson: it's going to be decided by the project | 18:43 |
| samueldmq | if keystone owns unified, does keystone need to update unified for every api change in any other servce ? | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: you have the same issue with centralizing it... what version does nova run.. what is that endpoint's policy | 18:44 |
| sdague | that domain knowledge is back in the project | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: it's the same question just spun differently | 18:44 |
| ayoung | sdague, I think, instead of /policy, it would make more sense to let the projects push their updated policy to Keystone itslef | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: does it hurt us to have /policy today and push to keystone tomorrow? | 18:44 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: i could see benefit to /policy in *any* case | 18:44 |
| sdague | ayoung: if it's a REST api that keystone can call, I don't understand why that's no ok | 18:44 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, Horizon doesn't know about the endpoints until they get the token...It is in the service catalog | 18:44 |
| bknudson | sdague: are you going to need some more default roles? | 18:44 |
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| ayoung | sdague it further fragments policy, instead of getting us a common view of it. It reinforces 968696, not fixes it | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | time's over ... decisions ? | 18:45 |
| sdague | because I imagine the end game is keystone goes and collects and merges those and makes that information available to users from a single point | 18:45 |
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| morganfainberg | samueldmq: let this last topic close, thanks | 18:45 |
| ayoung | sdague, hear me out...here is what I propose instead | 18:45 |
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| ayoung | we split policy. The ojnly part that is dynamic is the RBAC part | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, sdague: 1 minute | 18:45 |
| bknudson | do you still have a weekly meeting for this? | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg: sure, putting more time on it is your decision, thanks | 18:46 |
| ayoung | RBAC will provide a namespaced default | 18:46 |
| ayoung | Nova fetches its modified policy for the roles (olnly) from Keystone via oslo/meystonemiddleare | 18:46 |
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| ayoung | if we want hierarchical roles, we can do thiose in policy generation | 18:46 |
| samueldmq | bknudson: no, I think we could have, but ML can be enough for now ? | 18:46 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung: the fetch part seems like it could come as a followup | 18:46 |
| ayoung | if we do the /policy thing..itis hugely static, we ;ve just made it back to a Puppet function, with no way to tie the roles teogther etc within the system of record | 18:47 |
| sdague | ayoung: I don't understand why you think that, it's not static, it's federated | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | sdague: ++ | 18:47 |
| samueldmq | /policy is just an alternative from uploading the policy.json which is shipped with the code | 18:47 |
| samueldmq | that's how I see it :) | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | ok so here is my proposal: /policy now | 18:48 |
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| morganfainberg | the fetching from keystone follows | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | we can enhance keystone to be smarter being able to answer the questions as we go | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | directly, so horizon et al don't need to ask the endpoints | 18:48 |
| ayoung | -2 | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | in steps, /policy still does the same thing | 18:48 |
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| morganfainberg | but when it fetches from keystone (future) it now is dynamic | 18:48 |
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| ayoung | it does not address any of the issues other than "how do we query" | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | and you can query both sides "what does keystone think" and what "nova thinks" | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | so we toss hierarchical roles? | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | ok anyway | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | and we make bug 968696 a won;'t fix Or reassign top Nova? | 18:50 |
| openstack | bug 968696 in Keystone ""admin"-ness not properly scoped" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/968696 - Assigned to Adam Young (ayoung) | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | we can enhance /policy to do hierarchical roles | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | the thing is it is not strictly static | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | it's building on work | 18:50 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: nova still needs to get the modified policy back using middleware | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | it can't be an all encompassing solution day 1 | 18:50 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: /policy just provides the stock policy | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | it will never get done | 18:50 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: that's all | 18:50 |
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| sdague | right, /policy is "seed of truth" | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | sdague: ++ | 18:50 |
| sdague | dynamic would layer on top of it | 18:50 |
| samueldmq | yes, taht's the only difference | 18:51 |
| ayoung | is /policy stock only...taht is...you guys are not thinking this through | 18:51 |
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| ayoung | either it is stock only, in which case it gets out of date | 18:51 |
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| ayoung | or it is dynamic, in which case it is redundant | 18:51 |
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| morganfainberg | this sounds like perfect being the enemy of better-than-the-crap-we-have-today | 18:51 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, no. | 18:51 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, we don;t need to publish /plocy | 18:52 |
| ayoung | that gets shipped with the code | 18:52 |
| bknudson | if we're going to fundamentally redesign policy then let's not even try to fit it in with what we've got now | 18:52 |
| samueldmq | sdague: /policy only provides the initial source of truth, right ? | 18:52 |
| ayoung | that can be uploaded to Keystone at any point | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung: i think this is how we bridge to what you want | 18:52 |
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| sdague | samueldmq: that was my original thinking | 18:52 |
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| samueldmq | ayoung: so yes, /policy is just the stock policy | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | ok we're losing sdague and we need to continue on | 18:52 |
| sdague | it would be the composite of policy in code + policy in json files from the services | 18:52 |
| david8hu | bknudson, +1 | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg | we'll need to table this for further discussion | 18:52 |
| ayoung | sdague, is /policy stock? So idf I then fetch dfynamic policy from Keystone it is ouyt of sync? | 18:52 |
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| morganfainberg | sorry moving on. | 18:53 |
| ayoung | Ok, if this is what you guys agree oon, I iwll abandon my specs | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Make bandit jobs voting? | 18:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Make bandit jobs voting? (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:53 | |
| morganfainberg | #undo | 18:54 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x95d6350> | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | #action Further discussion on policy needed. | 18:54 |
| morganfainberg | #info Dynamic policy or /policy, or something in the middle? | 18:54 |
| samueldmq | /policy provides the source of truth to keystone, customizations occur in keystone, keystone provides customized policy back to services thorugh middleware | 18:54 |
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| morganfainberg | #topic Make bandit jobs voting? | 18:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Make bandit jobs voting? (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:54 | |
| morganfainberg | bknudson o/ | 18:54 |
| bknudson | hopefully this is quick... | 18:54 |
| bknudson | the bandit jobs have been running for several weeks | 18:54 |
| bknudson | non-voting | 18:55 |
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| bknudson | and was wondering if they could be made voting? | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | i'm ok with them becoming voting | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | unless someone has issue with it | 18:55 |
| bknudson | if so I'll propose the changes to -infra | 18:55 |
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| bknudson | need to sync the keystoneclient auth feature branch first. | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | any issues with bandit? concerns? | 18:55 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson: ok i think go ahead | 18:56 |
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| bknudson | great, thanks | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson: ping me and i'll +1 the change so -infra will push it through | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | skipping KSA and other repo stuff (since we're still missing jamie) | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Service providers by domain | 18:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Service providers by domain (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:56 | |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods: o/ | 18:56 |
| rodrigods | this *can* be quick :) | 18:56 |
| rodrigods | spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/188534/ | 18:56 |
| rodrigods | so, with reseller we will enforce domains as an administrative boundary - our proposal is to add the possibility to create service providers in the domain scope (basically, add the domain_id to service_provider table and filter the service_provider list in tokens based on its scope). Service providers with domain_id = null are available for all users in the cloud (as it is today) | 18:56 |
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| rodrigods | It will only change the API to create service_providers by including a new field in the request body and change its rule in the policy.json file | 18:57 |
| marekd | so you can burst to cloud X only if you are a member of domain D ? | 18:57 |
| rodrigods | marekd, yes | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | marekd: i think we initially wanted to solve that with endpoint filtering | 18:57 |
| marekd | endpoint filtering cannot do that? | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | i'd rather not lock us into only 1 domain can do it | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | but only domians that see the SPs can | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods: so i think lets put this into the filtering | 18:58 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: exactly, does endpoint filtering in todays scoped are enough to give what rodrigo wants? | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | if the SP isn't in the catalog, we don't issue saml for it | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods: but otherwise *yes* this is a good direction and way to go | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | marekd: will need an added check to not issue saml for an endpoint not in the SP list | 18:59 |
| rodrigods | morganfainberg, yeah... today service providers are not "inside" the catalog | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods: they are part of the catalog - lets enhance filtering to cover them too | 18:59 |
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| marekd | ++ | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods: but your idea is sound | 18:59 |
| rodrigods | morganfainberg, makes sense | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods: cool | 18:59 |
| marekd | we were planning on that either way. | 18:59 |
| rodrigods | morganfainberg, should this fit in L? | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | #action rodrigods to enhance filtering to cover Service Providers | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | rodrigods: please try to | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | it's worth it | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | last topic | 19:00 |
| rodrigods | morganfainberg, marekd, great! thanks for the feedback | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | and we're out of time | 19:00 |
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| raildo | :( | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash: your is_domain question - part of reseller | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash and domain scoped tokens | 19:00 |
| henrynash | I have posted an updated spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/193543/ | 19:00 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash: and yes it should be included in the L cycle | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 23 19:00:54 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-23-18.02.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-23-18.02.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-23-18.02.log.html | 19:01 |
| * morganfainberg lets -infra take over before they yell and jump up and down | 19:01 | |
| *** electrocucaracha has joined #openstack-meeting | 19:01 | |
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| henrynash | fades to black…. | 19:01 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:01 |
| bknudson | infra can do bad things to us. | 19:01 |
| janonymous_ | o/ | 19:01 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:01 |
| crinkle | o/ | 19:01 |
| Clint | o/ | 19:01 |
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| krtaylor | o/ | 19:02 |
| ianw | o/ | 19:02 |
| mmedvede | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 23 19:02:22 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:02 |
| mrmartin | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-16-19.02.html | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #topic Announcements | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
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| hogepodge | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | i have some announcements regarding core group changes | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | #info adding greghaynes to glean-core | 19:03 |
| fungi | exciting! | 19:03 |
| jeblair | greghaynes is basically the co-author of glean; i think we're all kind of hoping it doesn't actually get any more patches | 19:03 |
| jeblair | but in case someone want to add a new test, it will be nice for greg to be able to say "yes" | 19:03 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | or "no" if someone wants to add a new feature | 19:03 |
| jeblair | ;) | 19:03 |
| mordred | NO | 19:03 |
| mordred | just practicing | 19:03 |
| fungi | or if the stars align and we get to delete some code from it | 19:03 |
| jeblair | mordred: thank you for demonstrating | 19:03 |
| jeblair | fungi: a world of possibilities i didn't even consider! | 19:04 |
| jeblair | #info adding nibalizer, yolanda to infra-puppet core | 19:04 |
| jeblair | just as soon as i update my script to set up that group correctly | 19:04 |
| jeblair | they have been doing great work on these puppet modules and i've been heavily weighing their input for a while | 19:04 |
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| crinkle | yay! | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | try not to break everything, at least until we get the func testing in place... then i guess it's okay ;) | 19:05 |
| nibalizer | awesome, thanks | 19:05 |
| jeblair | #topic Specs approval | 19:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:05 | |
| fungi | yep, i can't wait do fewer reviews of those repos ;) | 19:05 |
| SpamapS | o/ | 19:05 |
| pleia2 | hehe | 19:05 |
| jeblair | first some specs that we should work on reviewing this week to get them ready for final approval | 19:05 |
| jeblair | #link ci watch spec: https://review.openstack.org/192253 | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | sdague has asked that we try to get agreement on this quickly; he is out next week, so if we can review/iterate on this this week, and get it on the schedule for next week, that would be good | 19:05 |
| greghaynes | oo yay im getting core | 19:05 |
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| fungi | greghaynes: don't spend it all in one place | 19:06 |
| greghaynes | :) | 19:06 |
| sdague | o/ | 19:06 |
| sdague | jeblair: also, a question in there about technology choices, because I think a couple of folks would start hacking on prototypes if we knew where preferences were | 19:07 |
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| * tchaypo waves | 19:07 | |
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| jeblair | cool; i have not had a chance to look at it yet, but hope to today | 19:07 |
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| sdague | ok | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | there are a number of other specs in the queue that are probably getting close | 19:08 |
| jeblair | #link stackalytics spec: https://review.openstack.org/187715 | 19:08 |
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| fungi | i think re refstack crowd were also at the point where they're looking for final feedback | 19:08 |
| jeblair | that one seems to be getting into shape; i'm a little concerned that we're not hearing as much from mirantis as i hoped | 19:08 |
| fungi | er, the | 19:08 |
| jeblair | maybe SergeyLukjanov is busy? | 19:09 |
| fungi | ahh, yeah SergeyLukjanov was going to check back in with mirantis marketing | 19:09 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 19:09 |
| hogepodge | yup, we'd like to move forward on the spec as soon as we can | 19:09 |
| jeblair | hogepodge: stackalytics or refstack? | 19:10 |
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| * fungi hopes the answer is "both!" | 19:10 | |
| hogepodge | ok, refstack, I jumped ahead. | 19:10 |
| jeblair | ok, it's up next | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | anyway, we can proceed with _hosting_ stackalytics at stackalytics.o.o if we want; i'd prefer to have mirantis folks on-board though | 19:11 |
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| jeblair | should we try to ping SergeyLukjanov this week, and if he's too busy, find another contact? | 19:12 |
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| fungi | that seems reasonable | 19:12 |
| greghaynes | Yea - they seemed like they had some requests for its usage there so they definitely need to be on board | 19:12 |
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| greghaynes | ++ | 19:12 |
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| fungi | perhaps one or more of the current stackalytics core reviewers would be good contacts on this | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | ya | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | pabelanger: let's try to track them down | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | anything else before we move on to approvals? | 19:14 |
| pabelanger | jeblair, sounds good | 19:14 |
| jeblair | #topic Specs approval: RefStack Site Hosting (hogepodge, davidlenwell) | 19:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: RefStack Site Hosting (hogepodge, davidlenwell) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:14 | |
| hogepodge | o/ | 19:14 |
| jeblair | #link refstack site hosting spec https://review.openstack.org/188207 | 19:14 |
| jeblair | this seems to be ready for a vote yeah? | 19:15 |
| gothicmindfood | is there/win 22 | 19:15 |
| pleia2 | I had a browse yesterday afternoon, looking good | 19:15 |
| jeblair | some late minor revisions yesterday, but i don't think it's changed greatly in a while | 19:15 |
| * gothicmindfood "whoopses" | 19:15 | |
| hogepodge | we had discussed whether to split api and ui across two domains | 19:15 |
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| fungi | i think that can still happen later if it turns out to be needed | 19:16 |
| hogepodge | yesterday the team voted to use only one, in part to ease transition to refstack.openstack.org if that was in the cards for the future | 19:16 |
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| fungi | co-hosting them on one server is probably simplest to start, and renders the question of how we'll tackle two https vhosts on one server moot | 19:16 |
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| jeblair | yeah, i think we can accomplish two if needed, but it should be done with some thought | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | so if we don't need it, sounds good to me | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | any concerns or comments, or should we open it for voting? | 19:17 |
| davidlenwell | we're flexible.. wanted to make it easier for you guys | 19:18 |
| fungi | er, ch-hosting them in one vhost/at one dns name | 19:18 |
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| fungi | i have no objections | 19:18 |
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| jeblair | #info refstack site hosting spec voting open until 2015-06-25 19:00 UTC | 19:19 |
| jeblair | #topic Schedule Project Renames | 19:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Schedule Project Renames (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:19 | |
| jeblair | we have one; i think we should wait for more :) | 19:19 |
| fungi | so soon? seems like we _just_ did this... ;) | 19:19 |
| Shrews | fungi: you love it | 19:19 |
| fungi | morganfainberg: didn't keystone have one coming up for rename too? | 19:20 |
| fungi | maybe we can batch them once that's confirmed | 19:20 |
| * mordred hands fungi a wetter-than-normal +2 aardvark of renaming | 19:20 | |
| jeblair | #agreed wait for more renames and batch | 19:20 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Migration to Zanata) | 19:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Migration to Zanata) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:21 | |
| * fungi wonders what the critical hit roll is for that aardvark | 19:21 | |
| pleia2 | so I'm stopped at how we handle infra-controlled service accounts in openstackid | 19:21 |
| pleia2 | I'll stash auth data in hiera, but we need an account associated with these kinds of things for openstackid itself | 19:21 |
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| fungi | pleia2: after i saw the details, that this is just for authenticating a bot to push stuff into zanata, i think the easy way out (an account for hostmaster@o.o or something) is likely fine | 19:22 |
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| mrmartin | fungi: we have a special role field for the account, we can set to a custom value too | 19:22 |
| fungi | mrmartin: oh, that's even better | 19:23 |
| pleia2 | in order to get an id, we need to do https://www.openstack.org/join/register | 19:23 |
| pleia2 | but it's a bot | 19:23 |
| jeblair | fungi, pleia2: the infra-root@openstack account has a number of aliases, we can add 'translate@' if we want | 19:23 |
| mrmartin | we have the 'Group' table for that, and a 'Group_Members' table to assign groups to accounts | 19:23 |
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| pleia2 | jeblair: wfm | 19:24 |
| jeblair | mrmartin: so should we start by registering through the web like a normal user, or should we create it entirely behind-the-scenes? | 19:24 |
| mrmartin | jeblair: exactly | 19:24 |
| fungi | jeblair: that seems safer, agreed. reusing the same one for multiple services leads to trust boundary issues | 19:24 |
| pleia2 | mrmartin: er, which? | 19:24 |
| jeblair | mrmartin: er, which one? | 19:24 |
| mrmartin | and add the Group manually both for openstackid-dev and openstack.o.o | 19:24 |
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| mrmartin | and I guess on the admin interface - I saw it once - you can assign the custom role to the manually registered profile | 19:25 |
| pleia2 | ok, so register like a normal user, and then make some behind the scenes tweaks | 19:25 |
| mrmartin | yeap | 19:25 |
| jeblair | #action jeblair set up translate@o.o infra-root alias | 19:25 |
| pleia2 | ok, so let's set up a translate@ alias and then I'll sign up with that | 19:25 |
| fungi | oh, admin interface. i don't think i've got access to the admin interface | 19:25 |
| mrmartin | and if we set properly the group assignment, we can filter out who is a human or who is a bot | 19:25 |
| mrmartin | :) | 19:25 |
| fungi | didn't realize it had one ;) | 19:25 |
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| jeblair | #action pleia2 sign up translate@ openstackid account | 19:26 |
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| mrmartin | fungi: I guess the admin was integrated into openstack.org originally | 19:26 |
| pleia2 | aside from that, I fixed a restart bug in our puppet module and StevenK's zanata scripts have landed (just need account to hook into), so we're on track to deliver testing version to the translators in the beginning of july (probably after the 4th) | 19:26 |
| fungi | mrmartin: makes sense | 19:26 |
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| jeblair | #action fungi mrmartin pleia2 investigate "admin interface" for openstack id, get service account group assigned somehow | 19:27 |
| asselin | o/ | 19:27 |
| jeblair | pleia2: let's celebrate with fireworks! | 19:27 |
| pleia2 | :D | 19:27 |
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| fungi | it's that time of year where tourists on vacation are setting off fireworks every night here. starting to get on my nerves | 19:28 |
| fungi | let's celebrate with beer ;_ | 19:28 |
| mtreinish | fungi: you should retaliate with your own explosives | 19:28 |
| mrmartin | we don't have fireworks here, so we can exchange for a week | 19:28 |
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| mrmartin | airbnb.openstack.org | 19:28 |
| fungi | hah | 19:28 |
| mrmartin | sorry | 19:28 |
| jeblair | nice :) | 19:29 |
| jeblair | #topic Hosting for Manila service image (u_glide, bswartz) | 19:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Hosting for Manila service image (u_glide, bswartz) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:29 | |
| jeblair | oh wait | 19:29 |
| jeblair | this was left over from last time wasn't it | 19:29 |
| fungi | thos was from last week | 19:29 |
| fungi | this | 19:29 |
| jeblair | #topic Open discussion | 19:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:29 | |
| fungi | i think they havea way forward now | 19:29 |
| jeblair | yep | 19:29 |
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| mrmartin | fungi: do you have some info about this resource-server split-out from openstackid? | 19:29 |
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| fungi | mrmartin: there's an open review smarcet proposed | 19:31 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/178853/ | 19:31 |
| mrmartin | I guess we need to set up a separate instance to serve this new endpoint, maybe with all the things, including SSL, etc. | 19:31 |
| mordred | jeblair: greghaynes and SpamapS and I have a phone call on thursday with HP humans about the networking for infra-cloud | 19:31 |
| fungi | right, that would be next | 19:31 |
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| greghaynes | mordred: horray | 19:31 |
| mrmartin | do we need a spec for that? | 19:31 |
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| fungi | mrmartin: probably not unless it needs a whole separate puppet module, but i'll defer to jeblair on that | 19:32 |
| SpamapS | jeblair: we had talked about discussing hand-off of things like the infra-cloud servers from non-root to infra-root.. | 19:32 |
| fungi | mrmartin: the way i see it, there's code which is running on openstackid.org which we'd rather not run there, so it's moving to a second server using the same basic framework | 19:32 |
| fungi | mrmartin: and it already has a git repo, and the existing puppet module can probably just grow a class for the resource server | 19:33 |
| mrmartin | fungi: yeap, I did a test on the openstackid code with the removed resource server things, and it was working | 19:33 |
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| mrmartin | https://review.openstack.org/178854 | 19:33 |
| pabelanger | I think grafana.o.o is almost ready to be stood up. Could use some guidance on the current state of the puppet module. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/179208/ | 19:33 |
| pabelanger | currently the only manual task right now is to create an api_key in admin GUI | 19:33 |
| fungi | mrmartin: awesome. i missed that one | 19:33 |
| pabelanger | for grafyaml | 19:33 |
| pabelanger | can't figure out hashing of key in database ATM :( | 19:34 |
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| pabelanger | so, manually injection won't work right now | 19:34 |
| jeblair | fungi, mrmartin: agreed | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | SpamapS: yeah, let's talk about the infra-cloud thing for a minute | 19:34 |
| jeblair | SpamapS: what needs to be handed off? | 19:35 |
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| greghaynes | jeblair: I think the question is are we going to have the infra rooters do a full redeploy before it goes 'live' | 19:35 |
| SpamapS | jeblair: what he said | 19:36 |
| jeblair | redeploy of the initial host? | 19:36 |
| jeblair | (or hosts?) | 19:37 |
| SpamapS | jeblair: if its fine to just hand it to infra-root with a local hiera with 'nopassword' in all the secret slots, I'm fine w/ that too. Just not sure how pedantic we want to be about privileges given that these aren't vms you can burn easily. | 19:37 |
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| fungi | how smooth (and fast) is a full redeploy at this point? | 19:38 |
| SpamapS | not enough data | 19:38 |
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| jeblair | i still don't know what we're talking about here, sorry. | 19:39 |
| pleia2 | can we stash ongoing documentation for the work you're doing somewhere (even if it's an etherpad?) | 19:39 |
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| SpamapS | I can probably re-deploy the initial hardware-cloud node with a bare OS in 30 minutes. No idea how long it will take to morph it into a working cloud though. | 19:39 |
| pleia2 | it's not clear to me what specific moving parts are involved ehre | 19:39 |
| pleia2 | here | 19:39 |
| jeblair | let's just see if we can manage to get on the same page talking to each other in irc first :) | 19:39 |
| greghaynes | jeblair: the concern is if we stand up infra-cloud, then just swap keys to the infra-rooter key, theres no guarantee of whether or not we have access or what code we put on those boxes | 19:39 |
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| jeblair | greghaynes: right, i'm just not sure exactly what things we're talking about | 19:40 |
| jeblair | we have no puppet manifests or anything written yet | 19:40 |
| jeblair | are we talking about what's needed to stand up the initial server, or the cloud itself, or what? | 19:40 |
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| fungi | so as a starting point... there's a (maybe multiple?) bastion host accessible from the internet via ssh | 19:40 |
| fungi | sounded like two? | 19:40 |
| jeblair | i think we were talking about 2 yes | 19:40 |
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| SpamapS | jeblair: I'm talking about once we write those puppet manifests, and beat the cloud into submission, do you want to re-deploy the whole thing from scratch with only infra-root's credentials? | 19:41 |
| jeblair | though actually https://review.openstack.org/180796 says one | 19:41 |
| SpamapS | fungi: we have one, the plan in the WIP docs is to have two bastion. | 19:41 |
| SpamapS | oh doh | 19:42 |
| SpamapS | well we'll fix that. :) | 19:42 |
| jeblair | SpamapS: ah yes, absolutely. we want to be able to regularly redeploy the cloud | 19:42 |
| jeblair | so i imagine that will involve any of the credentials for that being in our normal secret hiera file | 19:42 |
| jeblair | and we run a script to do the deploy | 19:42 |
| fungi | okay, so that bastion exists today and has an operating system on it now and is able to reach a management network for all the rest of the hardware? | 19:42 |
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| jeblair | so i guess for hand-off, we can just change all those credentials | 19:43 |
| greghaynes | fungi: yes | 19:43 |
| SpamapS | Ok, so that means that what we really want is to have the baremetal cloud deploy a copy of itself, and then those two would be the bastions (with only one having all nodes enrolled and used to deploy the whole new cloud). | 19:43 |
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| fungi | okay, so a pair of all-in-one control plane "clouds" which manipulate the remaining hardware as ironic instances | 19:44 |
| mordred | yes | 19:44 |
| jeblair | how does a baremetal cloud deploy a copy of itself? | 19:44 |
| mordred | I think "copy of itself" is a misnomer | 19:44 |
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| greghaynes | bare-metal-mitosis | 19:44 |
| mordred | I think there are 2 bare metal machines that are networked to the management network | 19:44 |
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| SpamapS | jeblair: it deploys a bare box, and then we deploy a copy of it using our tools. :) | 19:45 |
| mordred | each of them can deploy operating systems to bare metal machines | 19:45 |
| mordred | and on those operating systems, we can run puppet | 19:45 |
| mordred | so, each of them can deploy an operating system to the other as well | 19:45 |
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| jeblair | mordred: ah, i see. | 19:46 |
| mordred | which means if we need to blow away and re-do either of them, we can use the other to accomplish the task | 19:46 |
| fungi | and one of the systems which we could deploy to a bare metal instance is... another all-in-one control plane | 19:46 |
| mordred | yes | 19:46 |
| fungi | okay, this is starting to make some sense to my poor noodle | 19:46 |
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| jeblair | SpamapS: can you update https://review.openstack.org/180796 to describe this? | 19:46 |
| jeblair | we should really try to land that soon too | 19:47 |
| mordred | right now, SpamapS and greghaynes have logins and root on those machines | 19:47 |
| SpamapS | yeah I've been letting it languish as I get my hands dirty in a few of the early tasks. :-P | 19:47 |
| SpamapS | and lo, there must be changes. :) | 19:47 |
| jeblair | yeah, it doesn't need to land perfect | 19:47 |
| mordred | once we're happy with the puppet for those machines, I believe we'll want to have infra root redeploy those machines using puppet _without_ SpamapS and greghaynes keys on them | 19:48 |
| jeblair | let's try to land our plan, and then make changes to it; it's easier to patch that way :) | 19:48 |
| SpamapS | mordred: agreed | 19:48 |
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| jeblair | mordred: yup | 19:48 |
| mordred | and at that point, the next steps will largely be about using the cloud APIs of those clouds to operate the next level - which can have a similar process to go through | 19:48 |
| mordred | but root should no longer be needed on the all-in-ones | 19:49 |
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| mordred | also - to be clear - we'll ultimately have 4 of these | 19:49 |
| mordred | 2 per data center | 19:49 |
| SpamapS | right | 19:49 |
| fungi | though also, convincing greghaynes and SpamapS that they _want_ us to put their keys back on there so that they can help us manage those should stay on the table as an option ;) | 19:49 |
| mordred | fungi: :) | 19:49 |
| SpamapS | ok, all that will go into next patchset of the docs proposal | 19:49 |
| greghaynes | no take backs | 19:49 |
| jeblair | w00t | 19:49 |
| pleia2 | hehe | 19:49 |
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| mordred | SpamapS: crinkle had a great point in her review I really liked | 19:50 |
| mordred | SpamapS: which is that each of those bullet points should have a why | 19:50 |
| fungi | and yes, i agree a full redeploy of everything, if for no reason other than to validate the puppet and documentation, is a necessary step | 19:51 |
| mordred | SpamapS: which is likely SUPER useful so that we can remember why we decided that :) | 19:51 |
| pleia2 | mordred: ++ | 19:51 |
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| jeblair | end of infra-cloud topic? | 19:51 |
| crinkle | :) | 19:51 |
| greghaynes | Yep, I think that is good enough for near-term | 19:52 |
| mordred | \o/ | 19:52 |
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| jeblair | pabelanger: back to your question about grafana: can the api key just be a random string? if so, we can just use openssl to generate it and put it in hiera. | 19:52 |
| SpamapS | crinkle: excellent point. | 19:52 |
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| jeblair | pabelanger: we have similarly 'pre-generated password' items for gerrit, etc. | 19:52 |
| pabelanger | jeblair, issue is grafana does a custom hash / salt of the key. No way to do it externally ATM | 19:53 |
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| fungi | hopefully i'll have a first stab at using bindep to pre-cache distro packages uploaded for review | 19:53 |
| fungi | sometime later today | 19:53 |
| fungi | if stuff will stop breaking' | 19:53 |
| jeblair | pabelanger: hrm. it would be great if we didn't need a manual two-step installation process for grafana | 19:54 |
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| jeblair | timrc: ^ maybe you could work with pabelanger on this? | 19:54 |
| pabelanger | jeblair, agreed. If people can help decode the hash / salt method, we could inject into database for now | 19:54 |
| fungi | pabelanger: is there a tool we can use to generate that password? | 19:54 |
| pabelanger | also created: https://github.com/grafana/grafana/issues/2218 just now | 19:54 |
| pabelanger | fungi, not that I know of. However, we could request upstream for it | 19:55 |
| fungi | pabelanger: is there an example? | 19:55 |
| timrc | jeblair, Hm yeah. I think we just generated a random string and put it in heira, pabelanger | 19:55 |
| jeblair | yeah, that could be a solution, if grafana could supply a tool do perform the hashing | 19:55 |
| pabelanger | timrc, how do you get it into DB? | 19:55 |
| timrc | pabelanger, I think we specified it as a config option. Let me go see. | 19:56 |
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| pabelanger | timrc, possible I over looked something | 19:57 |
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| timrc | pabelanger, jeblair http://paste.openstack.org/show/317511/ | 19:58 |
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| jeblair | do we have a puppet-grafana repo yet? | 19:59 |
| timrc | pabelanger, jeblair Yeah we just created a random hash, threw it in hiera, and passed it down as a param which eventually found its way into the security block of the configuration class. | 19:59 |
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| ianw | is this open discussion? anyway, like to work through people's thoughts on -> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194477/ ; spec to get images closer to the dib ci test so we don't download them over internet | 19:59 |
| pabelanger | timrc, okay, so you are using the secret_key | 19:59 |
| pabelanger | let me test that out | 19:59 |
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| pabelanger | jeblair, no, we are consuming an upstream puppet-grafana module directly | 20:00 |
| jeblair | ah great | 20:00 |
| jeblair | ianw: ack | 20:00 |
| jeblair | thanks everyone! | 20:00 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| timrc | pabelanger, Cool. Seems to work. | 20:00 |
| mrmartin | thnx | 20:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 23 20:00:45 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-23-19.02.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-23-19.02.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-23-19.02.log.html | 20:00 |
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| flaper87 | o/ | 20:00 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:01 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | o/ | 20:01 |
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| jaypipes | .....o/ | 20:01 |
| dtroyer | o/ | 20:01 |
| lifeless | o/ | 20:01 |
| edleafe | still running, jay? | 20:01 |
| jaypipes | edleafe: of course :) | 20:01 |
| ttx | jgriffith, annegentle, lifeless, mordred, jeblair, sdague, dhellmann: around ? | 20:01 |
| jeblair | ttx: yep | 20:01 |
| lifeless | ttx: in spirit | 20:01 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:02 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 23 20:02:11 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | Meeting agenda for today: | 20:02 |
| lifeless | o/ | 20:02 |
| cloudnull | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:02 |
| adrian_otto | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | Lots of ground to cover, hopefully we won't spend too much time on straightforward things | 20:02 |
| ttx | #topic Add compute starter kit tag | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add compute starter kit tag (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/180112 | 20:02 |
| ttx | Last week we had limited attendance to the TC meeting so we said we would wait for this week before pushing this in | 20:02 |
| ttx | I think the remaining objections can be proposed as subsequent patches at this point | 20:03 |
| dhellmann | I still have strong reservations about this one. Can someone reassure me that we're not going to use this tag to allow cross-project teams to refuse to help projects that don't have it? | 20:03 |
| ttx | still short of one vote | 20:03 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I don't think cross-project teams need the tag to do that | 20:03 |
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| flaper87 | dhellmann: I certainly hope that won't happen | 20:04 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I'm differentiating "help" from "do the work for them" | 20:04 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: our job is to encourage cross-project tings | 20:04 |
| flaper87 | because that's not how I'm seeing this | 20:04 |
| markmcclain | similarly not certain that a few of the recommendations are things should be suggesting currently | 20:04 |
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| lifeless | I'd really love a more product centric view on things; I think this is a balanced, neutral stab at that, driven by requests from our newest users. | 20:04 |
| ttx | dhellmann: if a cross-project team refuses to help a given project, then that's a different problem. My point is the tag doen't help or prevent that | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | ttx: for example, annegentle expressed interest in having this for the doc team, and I would not want them to then say "we're only going to support projects in the starter kit" or "we're only going to include starter kit apps in the install guide" (not saying they would, just an example) | 20:05 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: it might encourage it | 20:05 |
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| lifeless | dhellmann: so, you're asking for a guarantee that noone here will support the idea of projects not helping other projects based on starter kit membership ? | 20:05 |
| russellb | i do see it as useful input to docs, if for example they did want to write the simplest starter install guide they could | 20:05 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I could see the starter kit prioritizing effort, but not excluding it | 20:05 |
| russellb | or whatever guide | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: yes | 20:05 |
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| flaper87 | I'd love to see other kits to be proposed as well. I may do that if I find the time in the next couple of weeks | 20:05 |
| jaypipes | russellb: ++ | 20:06 |
| russellb | ttx: good summary | 20:06 |
| flaper87 | I think that'd help | 20:06 |
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| lifeless | I'd love to see -more- cross stuff, not less. So you have my guarantee. | 20:06 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: if it's used for evil, you can come back and suggest we get rid of it :) | 20:06 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: oh that's not the point | 20:06 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: more "starter docs definition help" | 20:06 |
| annegentle | dhellmann: and yeah, we don't only include certain tags, it's just that tags are doc anyway | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | ttx: you can't put the genie back into the bottle, though, right? | 20:06 |
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| sdague | well, as someone that spent a ton of the last six months building external plugin mechanisms for devstack and grenade for the big tent, I kind of feel my actions speak pretty strongly for supporting a wide range of the ecosystem | 20:07 |
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| dhellmann | annegentle: right, I wasn't saying docs would, just using it as a concrete example of what I wouldn't want to see | 20:07 |
| russellb | i think we could easily remove this tag | 20:07 |
| russellb | right now anyway | 20:07 |
| markmcclain1 | apologies my bouncer lost connectivity | 20:07 |
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| annegentle | dhellmann: sure, it's a decent example | 20:07 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: I'm not sure what you mean, we can certaiunly remove the tag as well as we can create it | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | because if we're ever going to have another tag that requires *this* tag, or we're going to have teams saying "we only work on the starter kit" then I think we should not be documenting this in the governance repository where it implies that is ok | 20:08 |
| ttx | and if a team says I'll only support A B and Cn then the fact that a tag at a given moment covered A B and C doesn't really help or prevent | 20:08 |
| mordred | I'm +1 on this - I _DO_ worry that we're pointing new users at deploying a thing we want to deprecate | 20:08 |
| mordred | that said - I get the purpose, and I think it's well described | 20:08 |
| mordred | and I support its existence | 20:08 |
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| russellb | mordred: which, nova-net? | 20:08 |
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| mordred | yes | 20:08 |
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| sdague | yeh, the nova-net / neutron bit doesn't honestly have a great answer today | 20:09 |
| markmcclain1 | mordred: I share the same concern | 20:09 |
| sdague | so I went for simplicity | 20:09 |
| mordred | I would like to reduce the number of new nova-net deployments | 20:09 |
| russellb | i'd like it just the same swapping nova-net for neutron | 20:09 |
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| russellb | personally | 20:09 |
| mordred | and if the "start with this" says "deploy nova-net" that's bad for us overall | 20:09 |
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| russellb | yeah, we don't really need to make the migration problem worse | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: does having a "deploy starter kit" in devstack worry you? Because I see that like something that could easily happen | 20:09 |
| edleafe | that would be the starter kit *today*. It can change as the neutron story improves | 20:09 |
| markmcclain1 | we're also pointing them to multi-host which has the fuzziest migration path of all | 20:09 |
| ttx | mordred: we could quickly iterate on it though | 20:09 |
| russellb | i think it's better to assume you start with neutron, and fall back to nova-net only if needed | 20:09 |
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| mordred | yah. we don't need to spin on this - we can adjust and move forward - I just wanted to vocalize that | 20:09 |
| sdague | edleafe: right, my hope is it flips next cycle because we feel confident we have a simple enough story there | 20:10 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: so actually, I want to pick up on something here | 20:10 |
| russellb | but yeah, follow-up patch is fine to debate that point ... | 20:10 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: I think it would be entirely reasonable for a group to form around making the onramp super easy. | 20:10 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: I'd support that. | 20:10 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:10 |
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| lifeless | dhellmann: I wouldn't support e.g. nova saying 'starter kit only thanks' | 20:10 |
| edleafe | flaper87: seems like if you're using devstack, you're past the need for a starter kit | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | edleafe: but that doesn't mean you couldn't have it | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: right, someone working from this to make things easier is fine. Someone using this to exclude other projects is not fine. | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | we're discussing the meaning and implications of having the starter kit | 20:11 |
| lifeless | right | 20:11 |
| edleafe | flaper87: yeah, but still, one does not imply the other | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: we have had a history of "in" projects vetoing ideas and requests from other projects, and I think we should not be encouraging more of that. | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | so, I kinda feel it's relevant to dhellmann's point | 20:11 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: ah | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | I don't mind having it in devstack (if that ever happens) | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: nova/ceilometer, for example. Or, frankly, nova/neutron. | 20:11 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: I guess we'll have to stay vigilant | 20:11 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: so, if there's a history, how about we actively oppose that where it shows up, unless you think this is structurally supportive of that... | 20:11 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: (I don't) | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | I just want to know other folk's thoughts | 20:11 |
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| dtroyer | I'm in support of this doc, but it is no longer the thing for which I had hoped we would get that describes technical relationships between the projects. | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: I am a bit worried that it is, but I am glad that most everyone seems to be saying that's not the goal and would not be supported. | 20:12 |
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| annegentle | dhellmann: hm | 20:12 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: one of the things that makes me say it isn't is that its less than a fully useful cloudin every dimension | 20:12 |
| flaper87 | I believe the moment we see this is going the wrong direction, we should just sit and take a step back | 20:13 |
| flaper87 | or take a step back and then sit | 20:13 |
| flaper87 | that makes more sense :P | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: i am much less worried about the technical details than the message we send by identifying a group of projects like this *in governance* vs. a product guide or documentation somewhere else | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: it's the location, not the content, that bothers me | 20:13 |
| ttx | markmcclain: the bit you oppose to is the proposed application of the tag. we could fix that or rediscuss it) when a patch comes to apply that tag | 20:13 |
| lifeless | k | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: that said, the nova-net/neutron thing caught my eye, too, though I do understand sdague's goal | 20:14 |
| sdague | and, honestly, the way we keep teams collaborating is by getting in and helping them collaborate. I feel like we made a bunch of progress in the last week on nova / ceilometer interaction for instance | 20:14 |
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| sdague | and that was about people just deciding to talk and make things better | 20:14 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: yeah the specific recommendations are a stumbling block | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | sdague: I won't go over the whole history there, but we tried for a long time to get the nova team to talk about that stuff and were rebuffed. So I think *finally* is the operative word. | 20:15 |
| lifeless | sdague: yes, its all conways law :) | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | and that is a perfect example of what I want to avoid -- nova rebuffed ceilometer because that team was not an integrated project, will we see the same thing for non-starterkit projects now? | 20:15 |
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| russellb | we can drop the whole thing because of that risk, or wait to see if that happens and call it out if we see it | 20:16 |
| ttx | dhellmann: slightly different though. Ceilometer was not an openstack project ? | 20:16 |
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| flaper87 | I really think that we should keep our eyes super open to this cases and just rollback | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | ttx: at some point when we still wanted better nova integration, it was | 20:16 |
| russellb | if it would help, another paragraph could be added to the tag definition around that point | 20:16 |
| ttx | dhellmann: then it was integrated ? | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | having been on the receiving end of "go away, you aren't one of the cool projects" a couple of times, I might be overly sensitive to this particular issue | 20:17 |
| ttx | or was it during incubation ? | 20:17 |
| adrian_otto | dhellmann: +1 | 20:17 |
| ttx | Anyway, I think all the tags designate a subset of projects, and people can piggyback on them for evil | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | ttx: the problem they're solving now has been there since we started collecting more hypervisor metrics than nova had. I don't know when that started off the top of my head, but I would guess more than 1 year easily | 20:18 |
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| ttx | some random person could decide that they don't support projects without team:diverse-affiliation | 20:18 |
| ttx | I don't see how that tag is different or more significant | 20:18 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: this particular tag smells a lot like the integrated release or core, so I think it's different from "release:managed" or whatever | 20:18 |
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| markmcclain | dhellmann: ++ | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | ttx: the members of this group are unlikely to grow | 20:19 |
| ttx | I don't know what can be done to make it smell less than calling it starterkit | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | and so no project not in it at the beginning is likely to ever get support from someone that says "you must be in the starter kit" | 20:19 |
| edleafe | ttx +1 | 20:19 |
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| ttx | Just trying to see what's the next step here. You raise fear and doubt, it's hard to be constructive from that | 20:20 |
| edleafe | it's clearly a small subset, not a cool club to join | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | ttx: we should probably move on. I feel like I'm saying the same things I've been saying since this came up, and I feel like the only one hesitating. | 20:20 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: markmcclain seems also concerned | 20:21 |
| dtroyer | this set of projects will grow to exactly one more in the forseeable future. that is based on technical requirements, not popularity | 20:21 |
| ttx | dhellmann: no, I think your concerns are shared, it's just that we trust our ability to fix that if it arises | 20:21 |
| sdague | so, honestly, I think keeping it small is part of what prevents that. Because it's too small for most use cases, except my "first openstack". If we let it get big, then it becomes convoluted with core. | 20:21 |
| annegentle | seems like this particular tag needs some additional parallel tags to make people more comfortable | 20:21 |
| ttx | basically it's not a bylaws change, we can iterate and change it | 20:21 |
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| markmcclain | this sends a very powerful signal no matter how we down play it | 20:22 |
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| ttx | ok, we need to move on | 20:22 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: FWIW, I do share your concern and I was completely opposed at the previous version of this tag | 20:22 |
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| flaper87 | dhellmann: now, that it is called starterkit, it seems more reasonable | 20:22 |
| ttx | it has a majority if Sean votes in favor | 20:22 |
| flaper87 | and I do, as ttx mentioned, believe in our ability to rollback | 20:22 |
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| markmcclain | ttx: still very concerned with how we'll actually apply the tags | 20:23 |
| ttx | markmcclain: that's a different change though | 20:23 |
| markmcclain | ttx: there's no mechanism for saying this component in this exact config | 20:23 |
| ttx | we may iterate on the tag defv before we even apply it | 20:23 |
| sdague | dtroyer: you are supposed to roll-call vote as well | 20:23 |
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| dtroyer | argh, done | 20:24 |
| ttx | sdague: you abstain ? | 20:24 |
| sdague | yeh, I said I was going to abstain because it was my patch | 20:24 |
| sdague | I think that's in the early comments | 20:24 |
| ttx | Alright, I think at this point it's easier to merge it and iterate on it | 20:25 |
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| ttx | but Doug's point is duly noted, we should keep our eyes open | 20:25 |
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| ttx | this is for users to have a short list of projects to start playing with a compute use case | 20:26 |
| ttx | not for excluding projects from the discussion | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | I could vote for this if it had a non-exclusion section, but I don't feel comfortable voting for it as it is now. | 20:26 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I'd suggest you propose it as a subsequent patch | 20:27 |
| * flaper87 thinks it'd also help to have other kits instead of just one. That way folks would see that it's not something dedicated to just a set of projects | 20:27 | |
| dhellmann | ttx: ok | 20:27 |
| annegentle | ttx: do we have a plan for more use case tags to be proposed? I can work on some if desired. | 20:27 |
| ttx | we can block the tag application anyway, tag definition is not the end of the road | 20:27 |
| dtroyer | the object-store kit should be easy to write | 20:27 |
| * ttx will proceed with approval if gerrit ever answers | 20:27 | |
| flaper87 | dtroyer: +1 | 20:27 |
| Rockyg | ?me thinks dtroyer stole my idea...;) | 20:28 |
| * flaper87 has that in his to-write things | 20:28 | |
| ttx | ok, moving on while I wait for Gerrit to reply | 20:28 |
| ttx | #topic Ansible playbooks and roles to deploy OpenStack | 20:28 |
| annegentle | dtroyer: low hanging fruit :) | 20:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Ansible playbooks and roles to deploy OpenStack (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:28 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/191105 | 20:28 |
| ttx | This one looks pretty straightforward to me, no need to spend too much time on it | 20:28 |
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| ttx | last time Gerrit was nice enough to answer it was pretty close | 20:28 |
| * russellb waiting on gerrit too | 20:28 | |
| cloudnull | hi ttx commited that review and am happy to answer any questions. | 20:28 |
| * sigmavirus24 is around too | 20:29 | |
| ttx | any objection, or should I just approve it once it passes 7 yes ? | 20:29 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: gerrit isn't loading, so maybe we should wait to give everyone time to vote | 20:30 |
| * flaper87 has no objections | 20:30 | |
| annegentle | is gerrit wearing its slowpants today? | 20:30 |
| sdague | gerrit has been sad all week | 20:30 |
| ttx | been a few days | 20:30 |
| * sigmavirus24 expected flaper87 to object on the basis of my involvement =P | 20:30 | |
| palendae | Finally loading for me | 20:30 |
| ttx | ok it has 7 yes already | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | gertty ftw | 20:30 |
| cloudnull | yea its not been happy today at all. | 20:30 |
| flaper87 | sigmavirus24: did it in my mind :P | 20:30 |
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| ttx | so I'll give you extra time to push your +1 on it and approve at end of meeting | 20:30 |
| sdague | the ansible stuff was all straight forward | 20:30 |
| sigmavirus24 | silly gerrit thinking it can have feelings and such | 20:30 |
| ttx | #topic Add Cue Message Broker Service to Openstack | 20:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add Cue Message Broker Service to Openstack (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:30 | |
| flaper87 | should we take this as a sign? | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | :P | 20:31 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/191173 | 20:31 |
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| annegentle | cloudnull: is the only repo a specs repo? | 20:31 |
| vipuls | i'm here if there are any Cue questions | 20:31 |
| sigmavirus24 | flaper87: might take it as a cue for zaqar though | 20:31 |
| ttx | For this one I was mostly wondering about the "where it makes sense, the project cooperates with existing projects rather than gratuitously competing or reinventing the wheel" requirement | 20:31 |
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| cloudnull | annegentle: we have https://github.com/stackforge/os-ansible-deployment and https://github.com/stackforge/os-ansible-deployment-specs | 20:31 |
| ttx | so whether Cue was not accidentally duplicating a lot of the work already done within Trove to handle clusters of data things | 20:31 |
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| ttx | i.e. are the Cue first-class resources sufficently different from Trove's to make a separate project worth it | 20:31 |
| annegentle | cloudnull: ok I'm not seeing the os-ansible-deployement rep in the proposed patch | 20:32 |
| sdague | ttx: would Sahara be considered a duplication of Trove? | 20:32 |
| mordred | well, as a person who has used trove apis in anger - I can say that if I could ALSO get a rabbit from it it would be very strange | 20:32 |
| flaper87 | ttx: I think they are very different | 20:32 |
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| russellb | mordred: "in anger" ? heh | 20:32 |
| ttx | sdague: well, a map/reduce cluster has significantly different properties from a queue or a DB | 20:32 |
| sdague | this feels very much like Trova and Sahara except with a different base resource | 20:32 |
| mordred | and also - I'd love to be abl to request a rabbit and not know anything about how it works | 20:32 |
| ttx | a queue and DB are about storing and retrieving data | 20:32 |
| ttx | and backup and users | 20:32 |
| palendae | annegentle: Line 1177? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/191105/2/reference/projects.yaml | 20:33 |
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| mordred | sure - but to me the "don't duplicate" woudl be if this was another dbaas service | 20:33 |
| russellb | i think they're different enough | 20:33 |
| flaper87 | ttx: queue's are not always about storing data | 20:33 |
| vipuls | I think the semantics of provisioning, management may be shared across all of these projects, but the API is definitely radically different | 20:33 |
| flaper87 | s/queues/messaging systems/ | 20:33 |
| cloudnull | annegentle: i added into the change set but its not in the body of the commit message . i can update it if you'd like to see it there. | 20:33 |
| sdague | honestly, things went really wrong when we said "everything that is metadata must go in glance" and "everything that touches a network must go in neutron" | 20:33 |
| ttx | flaper87: sure but cue doesn't do data plane | 20:33 |
| sdague | so I don't know why we'd start doing that again | 20:33 |
| flaper87 | I believe it'd be fair that it could even deploy other messaging systems that are not broker based | 20:34 |
| sdague | especially as it's a thing, with a team, doing a thing | 20:34 |
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| ttx | I just want to avoid Trove and Cue copy-pasting 90% of their code | 20:34 |
| flaper87 | ttx: I believe they can collaborate in some areas | 20:34 |
| ttx | or reinventing what the other already wrote | 20:34 |
| jeblair | sdague: agreed; i wonder if there is similarity around the deployment mechanisms in these projects that could be factored out, but the end product is different enough to warrant separate projects | 20:34 |
| flaper87 | but I don't think the use-case is the same | 20:34 |
| flaper87 | jeblair: I believe there is | 20:34 |
| jeblair | ttx, flaper87: ^ to that point | 20:34 |
| flaper87 | :D | 20:34 |
| * flaper87 beat jeblair | 20:34 | |
| flaper87 | w000t | 20:34 |
| jeblair | flaper87: you win this round! | 20:35 |
| vipuls | flaper87: +1 | 20:35 |
| ttx | I'm fine with it if everyone else thinks it's different for a purpose other than just being different | 20:35 |
| lifeless | so | 20:35 |
| lifeless | I don't understand that argument | 20:35 |
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| lifeless | if we've *truely* moved from saying 'X is openstack' to asking 'are you openstack' | 20:35 |
| sdague | lifeless: ++ | 20:35 |
| lifeless | then being different shouldn't matter | 20:35 |
| lifeless | Someone might want to try to do it better | 20:35 |
| lifeless | whatever | 20:36 |
| ttx | Well, being openstack is also about collaborating where possible | 20:36 |
| ttx | lifeless: I hate gratuitous duplication of effort | 20:36 |
| lifeless | sure | 20:36 |
| lifeless | but we just set up a governance structure designed to bring in effort | 20:36 |
| ttx | i just want to make sure this is not one of those cases | 20:36 |
| lifeless | we're going to get overlap | 20:36 |
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| sdague | yeh, but we're going to get some of it. And it's not like the Trove team showed up and said "don't do that" | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | I think the point of collaboration where possible is fair and I believe there are areas where these projects can collaborate | 20:36 |
| lifeless | because the world isn't neat. | 20:36 |
| ttx | and that it's not "gratuitous" | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | it's a good thing that vipuls used to be part of trove as well | 20:36 |
| lifeless | right | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | so, that makes it even easier | 20:36 |
| sdague | if the Trove team was strongly objecting here, I think that would be a different thing | 20:36 |
| lifeless | right | 20:36 |
| lifeless | I think we should be letting concerns like that bubble up | 20:37 |
| jeblair | lifeless: i think in the future we may choose to allow _real_ duplication, and even then, i think it's worth discussing and being deliberate about. i don't think we are even that far down the line with this project. | 20:37 |
| lifeless | not impose them ourselves | 20:37 |
| flaper87 | FWIW, vipuls is (used to) be a trove core | 20:37 |
| ttx | I guess you know better since it's a HP thing | 20:37 |
| lifeless | jeblair: agreed | 20:37 |
| flaper87 | vipuls: amiright ? | 20:37 |
| vipuls | flaper87: correct :D | 20:37 |
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| vipuls | used to be ;) | 20:37 |
| flaper87 | there | 20:37 |
| lifeless | ttx: so, the HP angle isn't where I'm coming from here. I mean - yes, initiated by HP, because what they felt the HP cloud users wanted and needed didn't exist | 20:38 |
| sdague | I also think I remember people asking for a thing like this during the very long zaqar integration debate, so it's kind of cool someone showed up and filled that hole. | 20:38 |
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| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:38 |
| lifeless | ttx: but my main thing is I want us to really actually truely get out of the way | 20:38 |
| lifeless | ttx: and let folk already in the tent come to us with concerns about new entrants | 20:38 |
| mordred | that's actually why I thnk it's good - it's what a bunch of people thought zaqar was and those peopel were happy about that idea | 20:38 |
| flaper87 | sdague: yeah, I believe it was born close (or right after) Zaqar's second grad attempt | 20:38 |
| sdague | I do think it's another project that warrants the diverity:danger flag, and we should probably take it up. | 20:39 |
| ttx | lifeless: you'll note I'm not opposing it at all, not even voting -1. Just want to put that dead fish on the table | 20:39 |
| lifeless | sure | 20:39 |
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| lifeless | let me slice it up some more, I like sashimi | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | I think there's value behind Cue, especially if it'll take the pain of maintaining rabbitmq away from me | 20:39 |
| * jeblair just ate sushi during the last meeting | 20:39 | |
| flaper87 | :P | 20:39 |
| * jeblair doesn't feel so well | 20:39 | |
| ttx | if you're all comfortable wityh it, I am too | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | jeblair: I *just* ate sushi | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | :P | 20:39 |
| ttx | we ahve 8 yes, I can approve it now | 20:39 |
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| ttx | jaypipes voted -1 though :) | 20:40 |
| jaypipes | ttx: yeah, sorry, I don't really see much point to this, and have the same concerns jogo did. | 20:40 |
| vipuls | jaypipes: didn't leave much of a reason :| | 20:40 |
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| ttx | well, "not much point" is not a valid objection, I think | 20:41 |
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| ttx | we are out of the business of judging if there is a point. Still in the business of judging if it will hurt a lot more than it helps, but that's about it | 20:41 |
| annegentle | I haven't looked at Cue til now, so haven't voted. | 20:41 |
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| jaypipes | vipuls: IMHO, the Cue project is trying to put a REST API around stuff that should be in Puppet manifests or Murano app manifests, and Pacemaker OCF resource agents, and I don't agree with it. | 20:42 |
| ttx | ok, Looks like Gerrit is back, so I'll proceed in approvals | 20:42 |
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| russellb | jaypipes: yeah, i honestly feel the same way | 20:42 |
| russellb | i just don't care enough to -1 it, i guess | 20:42 |
| ttx | last call for votes on the previously-discussed changes | 20:42 |
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| russellb | i see projects in this category as questionably useful | 20:42 |
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| jogo | jaypipes: s/Trove/Cue/ or s/Trove/Murano and that is still valid | 20:43 |
| russellb | other people seem to think it's helpful, so wfm ... | 20:43 |
| vipuls | jaypipes: If you read some of my comments back to jogo i don't think it's that simple. It's all about presenting an API that is user-friendly and not shoving everything into a one-fits-all | 20:43 |
| jaypipes | vipuls: I would vote the same way if someone proposed an OpenStack project that reimplemented Puppet in an OpenStack RESTful API. | 20:43 |
| ttx | approving starterkit at 7 votes, ansible at 8 votes and cue at 9 | 20:43 |
| sdague | yeh, I feel like "can be done with Puppet" means we throw out trove, heat, sahara, murano, and a whole bunch of other stuff | 20:43 |
| jaypipes | vipuls: users don't want to deal with MQ clusters via a REST API. | 20:43 |
| mordred | jaypipes: some might | 20:43 |
| vipuls | sdague: +1 | 20:44 |
| jaypipes | s/MQ clusters/MQ cluster management/ | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | My agreement with this comes from the fact that DBs and Messaging systems are things you *need* to put your app in the cloud | 20:44 |
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| mordred | jaypipes: I'd rather get an HA rabbit from my cloud than deploy one with puppet | 20:44 |
| vipuls | jaypipes: could you not say the same thing by s/MQ Clusters/databases? | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | I don't think we are going to approve all projects willing to deploy something and take care of the lifecycle | 20:44 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: isn't that zaqar? | 20:44 |
| vipuls | i think we've seen the opposite is true | 20:44 |
| mordred | jaypipes: so, count me in the set of users who run things in clouds who would use this for his rabbit needs | 20:44 |
| lifeless | ah, s/ helps ;) | 20:44 |
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| flaper87 | lifeless: I could see Zaqar being deployed by Cue | 20:44 |
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| ttx | flaper87++ | 20:45 |
| jaypipes | mordred: I'd rather not reimplement Puppet and Pacemaker in a REST API. | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | but it doesn't necessarily has to be Zaqar | 20:45 |
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| lifeless | flaper87: right,I was replying to an abbreviated comment | 20:45 |
| ttx | Im fine with REST APIs to set up Dbs and Queues | 20:45 |
| lifeless | you could also say the same thing about nova | 20:45 |
| mordred | jaypipes: I understand that you would not use it. please undertand that I would | 20:45 |
| lifeless | users don't want to interact with VM cluster management via a REST api... but they do | 20:45 |
| mordred | lifeless: ++ | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | I don't think we'll have a REST API to deploy.... PUT_THE_SERVICE_RUNNING_IN_YOUR_HOME_SERVER_HERE | 20:45 |
| jaypipes | mordred: sure, fair enough. and I would just point you at Murano and say "hmm, that is already done." | 20:45 |
| ttx | Alright, this has enough votes to pass, approving now | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | at some point we gotta stop | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | but queues and dbs? You ain't going to deploy a distributed app without those | 20:46 |
| sdague | flaper87: honestly, why. If people do a thing, find their audience, it's fine | 20:46 |
| mordred | jaypipes: possibly so - I think murano is a fine solution to the problem space as well | 20:46 |
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| jaypipes | vipuls: yes, you absolutely can say the same about trove. | 20:46 |
| ttx | Let's move on... lots to cover still | 20:46 |
| ttx | #topic Add Solum to OpenStack Projects List | 20:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add Solum to OpenStack Projects List (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:46 | |
| flaper87 | sdague: mmh, would you have a service that deployes apache ? | 20:46 |
| vipuls | thanks folks! | 20:46 |
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| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/190949 | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | deploys | 20:46 |
| mordred | aw. but I ahven't had a good argument with jaypipes in years. :) | 20:46 |
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| flaper87 | fuck english | 20:46 |
| jaypipes | lol | 20:46 |
| ttx | We discussed this one last week but couldn't gather enough votes for it to pass | 20:46 |
| ttx | it now has... 5 | 20:47 |
| ttx | Questions on that that may or may not make you vote ? | 20:47 |
| jaypipes | vipuls, mordred: bottom line, I recognize there is a fine line here... | 20:47 |
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| jaypipes | vipuls, mordred: and I'm just logging my general feeling about duplication of purpose, that's all. | 20:47 |
| mordred | jaypipes: ++ | 20:48 |
| markmcclain | ttx: sorry missed this one earlier... added my +1 | 20:48 |
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| ttx | arh, merge conflict fun | 20:48 |
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| mordred | I think solum is clearly a set of people who are us | 20:48 |
| vipuls | jaypipes: yep agreed, appreciate the feedback | 20:48 |
| adrian_otto | I can post a revision | 20:48 |
| ttx | adrian_otto: please do | 20:48 |
| adrian_otto | now, or after more votes? | 20:48 |
| annegentle | I got my questions answered just a few minutes ago | 20:48 |
| ttx | it may reset the votes, so now | 20:48 |
| devkulkarni | +1 mordred | 20:48 |
| adrian_otto | ok, will do | 20:49 |
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| sdague | jaypipes: I also don't feel like "well, we let Murano in so now it owns the entire space of all service deploys" because if I knew that was a thing, I'd have voted against that. I felt that was a way we were enabling users, not excluding other ways. | 20:49 |
| ttx | adrian_otto: ping us when done | 20:49 |
| ttx | In the mean time I'll cover something else | 20:49 |
| ttx | #topic Add type:library and type:service tags | 20:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add type:library and type:service tags (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:49 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/191891 | 20:49 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/191892 | 20:50 |
| ttx | Those are release-related tags, but I think type:* is more relevant for what we describe here | 20:50 |
| ttx | We could have type:doc one day for example | 20:50 |
| jaypipes | sdague: fair enough. | 20:50 |
| ttx | merge conflicts there too, added too many new projects | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | there are merge conflicts everywhere | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | yes, these new tags are meant to be used by a query tool we have in the release repository so we can find a list of all of the things of a type where we manage the release | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | oh noes | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | let's just vote, and we can rebase patches as needed after we're done and let ttx merge them -- we've done that many times before | 20:51 |
| flaper87 | I'll cast my vote after the rebase | 20:51 |
| ttx | If there are no questions about them I can merge those when they reach 7 yes during the week | 20:51 |
| sdague | my only question on the service thing was horizon being in there, because it's not a service per say, so the wording is a bit confusing | 20:51 |
| sdague | not that I know if there are any better words | 20:51 |
| ttx | some libs are not libs per se either :) | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | why is horizon not a service? | 20:51 |
| sdague | it's not an endpoint? | 20:51 |
| mordred | dhellmann: no rest api? | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | service != rest service | 20:52 |
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| dhellmann | service == long running thing | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | to differentiate it from command line tool, library, docs, etc. | 20:52 |
| sdague | ok, that's fine. | 20:52 |
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| mordred | I think with keystone having a "service catalog" ... I hear service and I think "something that registers with keystone" | 20:52 |
| dtroyer | dhellmann: would it also be correct for service == !library? for things that might have either of these tags? | 20:53 |
| mordred | which I know flys in the face of the meaning of the actual word | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 20:53 |
| mordred | but this is cloud | 20:53 |
| mordred | where we redefine everything | 20:53 |
| lifeless | maybe we should say daemon | 20:53 |
| lifeless | but meh | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer: the intent is for the type tags to be mutually exclusive, so that each repo only has one type | 20:53 |
| mordred | say daemon if we mean something other than "something we register with keystone" | 20:53 |
| ttx | dtroyer: except there are things there that are not service and not library | 20:53 |
| ttx | like a -specs repo | 20:53 |
| jeblair | it's either that or 'project' | 20:53 |
| mordred | jeblair: or 'tenant' | 20:53 |
| sdague | or policy | 20:53 |
| ttx | or tenant | 20:53 |
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| dtroyer | ttx: right, that's what I'm curious about | 20:53 |
| * Rockyg is pretty sure it's a UI | 20:53 | |
| flaper87 | kk | 20:53 |
| fungi | s/service/daemon/? | 20:53 |
| * fungi ducks back into the bikeshed | 20:53 | |
| sdague | yeh, it's fine, I'm sorry I openned the peanut gallery | 20:54 |
| ttx | ok, let's see what can still be merged in this rebase mess | 20:54 |
| ttx | #topic CLA / DCO workplan on Board Agenda | 20:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "CLA / DCO workplan on Board Agenda (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:54 | |
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| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation-board/2015-June/000074.html | 20:54 |
| ttx | That email did not exactly trigger a massive thread of board responses | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | alan did reply, though | 20:54 |
| ttx | oh, recently ? | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation-board/2015-June/000080.html | 20:54 |
| sdague | well, there was a reply that yes, someone was going to discuss it | 20:54 |
| ttx | err.. I missed that reply | 20:55 |
| sdague | however, it was really light on details | 20:55 |
| sdague | I tried to write up what I remembered we'd kind of agreed to - http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2015-June/001984.html | 20:55 |
| ttx | sdague: you posted that agenda topic, what do you want from it ? | 20:55 |
| russellb | yeah, basically we need the written version that alan refers to | 20:55 |
| jeblair | i think we were hoping for the board to formally vote on something to make sure we are really on the same page | 20:55 |
| sdague | because I can't post to foundation-board, it's board folks only | 20:55 |
| sdague | the foundation ML post has not gotten any board member responses on it | 20:56 |
| mordred | yah - and I think the board is waiting on eileen to write something up, is my takeaway from that email from alan | 20:56 |
| ttx | maybe one of our resident board members could forward that | 20:56 |
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| russellb | i sure hope board members see the foundation list too ... | 20:56 |
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| mordred | and there is a time frame associated with alan's expectations on receiving that | 20:56 |
| russellb | but i'm not sure there's much more we can do at the moment | 20:56 |
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| sdague | I hope that http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2015-June/001984.html represents what others remember from that meeting, if not, corrections welcomed | 20:56 |
| * dhellmann wonders if anyone not on the board can subscribe to the foundation-board list | 20:56 | |
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| russellb | dhellmann: yes | 20:56 |
| russellb | actually i don't know | 20:57 |
| sdague | dhellmann: but they can't post | 20:57 |
| russellb | archives are open at least | 20:57 |
| mordred | sdague: it looked good to me | 20:57 |
| ttx | like openstack-tc really | 20:57 |
| sdague | right | 20:57 |
| russellb | mordred: sdague ack, looked good to me too | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | russellb: ok. I thought I had found all lists like this and subscribed, but I guess I missed one | 20:57 |
| russellb | dhellmann: it's relatively new | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | russellb: thanks, I'll use that as an excuse ;-) | 20:57 |
| Rockyg | dhellmann: russellb: No. | 20:57 |
| ttx | ok, looks like it triggered the expected surge in caring about this | 20:57 |
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| sdague | anyway, the board meeting is coming up soon enough, that I assume there are procedural issues with having a resolution in a state early enough to vote on | 20:58 |
| russellb | sdague: thanks for writing it up, like i said, it did reflect my interpretation as well | 20:58 |
| sdague | and I don't want the results to be "oh... that wasn't soon enough, punt to fall" | 20:58 |
| fungi | the old (private) foundatin-board ml was renamed to make it less attractive for board members to arbitrarily post to, and this new public ml was created to take its place | 20:58 |
| ttx | sdague: ok, I don't think there is much more to discuss at this point ? | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | fungi: thanks | 20:58 |
| sdague | ttx: probably not | 20:58 |
| adrian_otto | revision 3 of https://review.openstack.org/190949 available for votes | 20:58 |
| fungi | i migrated the subscribers from the private list to the new one, but anyone else who wants so subscribe should be able | 20:58 |
| russellb | sdague: it's in eileen's court to prepare. i think you should feel free to reach out to her. she represents your company :) | 20:59 |
| ttx | alright, please reapply votes and I'll approve when it reaches 7 (if it does) | 20:59 |
| ttx | #topic Workgroup reports | 20:59 |
| adrian_otto | tx, ttx | 20:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Workgroup reports (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:59 | |
| sdague | russellb: will do :) I wanted to do open channels first though | 20:59 |
| ttx | * Project Team guide workgroup | 20:59 |
| ttx | I'm happy to announce that the virtual sprint last week was a success, with most chapters having an initial version now | 20:59 |
| ttx | Now we need to publish it somewhere | 20:59 |
| ttx | * Communications workgroup | 20:59 |
| ttx | annegentle, flaper87: o/ | 20:59 |
| russellb | sdague: cool, hopefully we keep it moving | 20:59 |
| ttx | you have one minute | 20:59 |
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| ttx | or not | 21:00 |
| ttx | annegentle: I suspect a new blog post is coming ? | 21:00 |
| annegentle | heh | 21:01 |
| annegentle | I think we'll need one this week, yep. I'll start a draft flaper87 | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | lots approved today to talk about :-) | 21:01 |
| ttx | oh and everyone, Cue was rebased at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/191173/ so please reapply votes there too | 21:01 |
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| ttx | I'll pick them up tomorrow | 21:01 |
| ttx | And that closes it | 21:01 |
| ttx | sorry for the dropped items, my agenda was based on a less eventful road on the first item on the agenda | 21:02 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 23 21:02:08 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:02 |
| lifeless | :) | 21:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-23-20.02.html | 21:02 |
| ttx | We'll be back next week | 21:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-23-20.02.txt | 21:02 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-23-20.02.log.html | 21:02 |
| jeblair | annegentle: (you're _definitely_ going to want to revise the docs chapter of the project team guide; i wrote it and it's terrible :) | 21:02 |
| annegentle | jeblair: :) | 21:02 |
| ttx | SlickNik: sorry for the delay | 21:02 |
| ttx | I blame dhellmann | 21:02 |
| cloudnull | thanks ttx ! | 21:02 |
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| SlickNik | ttx: no worries | 21:02 |
| fungi | jeblair: you're just baiting the docs team by writing docs about them | 21:02 |
| jeblair | pretty much | 21:02 |
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| SlickNik | #startmeeting crossproject | 21:03 |
| ttx | jeblair: next time, bait them to write it in the first place, like I tricked the VMT to do | 21:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 23 21:03:23 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SlickNik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:03 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:03 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'crossproject' | 21:03 |
| notmyname | hellow | 21:03 |
| tpatil | o/ | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:03 |
| jokke_ | o/ | 21:03 |
| docaedo | o/ | 21:03 |
| bknudson | hi | 21:03 |
| ttx | o/ | 21:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 21:03 |
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| elmiko | o/ | 21:03 |
| ttx | SlickNik: thx for chairing ! | 21:03 |
| SlickNik | courtesy ping for david-lyle flaper87 dims ttx johnthetubaguy rakhmerov | 21:03 |
| SlickNik | courtesy ping for smelikyan morganfainberg bswartz slagle adrian_otto mestery | 21:03 |
| SlickNik | courtesy ping for kiall jeblair thinrichs j^2 stevebaker mtreinish Daisy | 21:03 |
| SlickNik | courtesy ping for notmyname dtroyer isviridov gordc SlickNik cloudnull | 21:03 |
| SlickNik | courtesy ping for loquacities thingee hyakuhei redrobot TravT emilienm | 21:03 |
| SlickNik | courtesy ping for SergeyLukjanov devananda boris-42 nikhil_k | 21:03 |
| dtroyer | o/ | 21:03 |
| Rockyg | o/ | 21:03 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:04 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:04 |
| j^2 | o/ | 21:04 |
| ttx | Volunteers welcome @ https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting#Chair_rotation | 21:04 |
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| devananda | \o | 21:04 |
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| stevebaker | \o | 21:04 |
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| SlickNik | Pretty packed agenda, so let's get started | 21:05 |
| SlickNik | #topic Team announcements (horizontal, vertical, diagonal) | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Team announcements (horizontal, vertical, diagonal) (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:05 | |
| dims | o/ | 21:05 |
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| dhellmann | milestone tagging is going well this week | 21:05 |
| dims | #info bunch of oslo releases today, timber! | 21:05 |
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| dhellmann | we still need to talk to stevebaker and kiall about heat and designate | 21:06 |
| SlickNik | #info this is the liberty-1 milestone week — tagging is going well. | 21:06 |
| ttx | dhelmmann and myself synced today with everyone but Heat (stevebaker) and Designate (Kiall) | 21:06 |
| ttx | And we already tagged sahara, ceilometer, glance, cinder, trove and keystone | 21:06 |
| ttx | We should cover the remaining ones in the next two days | 21:06 |
| fungi | the oslo.db release switches the default mysql backend to pymysql, so i can go remove the temporary overrides everywhere for opportunistic detection to prefer pymysql | 21:07 |
| dhellmann | fungi: ++ | 21:07 |
| SlickNik | nice, fungi | 21:07 |
| dims | fungi: yay | 21:07 |
| fungi | i think that was basically our last step on that switch? or we maybe still need grenade with the happymaking | 21:07 |
| fungi | anyway, the end is in sight | 21:07 |
| * dhellmann does not use grenades for happy making | 21:08 | |
| fungi | whittling away at the neutron tests which broke on pymysql is likely longer tail | 21:08 |
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| SlickNik | Any other announcements before we move on to the next topic? | 21:09 |
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| SlickNik | . | 21:09 |
| SlickNik | #topic Return request-id to caller (use thread local to store request-id) | 21:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Return request-id to caller (use thread local to store request-id) (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:10 | |
| SlickNik | tpatil: around? | 21:10 |
| tpatil | #link: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/request-id | 21:10 |
| tpatil | I have put my thoughts in this etherpad url | 21:10 |
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| tpatil | in the last glance meeting, Nikhil suggested us to talk with the cross project team about this topic. | 21:10 |
| tpatil | Our users wants request id from python-*client so that they can approach to service provider to address their issues quickly | 21:11 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 21:11 |
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| dhellmann | tpatil: before you go making a bunch of changes to the client libs, I would like to understand how osprofiler is already doing this, because boris-42 has shown lots of demos of tracing a request through the entire system | 21:11 |
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| lifeless | There's a nuance here | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | tpatil: the point of asking you to talk to them was to avoid having 2 ways of passing request ids around | 21:12 |
| lifeless | this concern is 'how can users identify the problem request to the helpdesk' | 21:12 |
| lifeless | the osprofiler one is 'how can devs/ops see what happened internally to the cluster' - a distributed call graph | 21:12 |
| jokke_ | ++ | 21:13 |
| lifeless | I think alignment and careful dot-joining is important | 21:13 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: yes, right, that's what I'm asking for | 21:13 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: ++ | 21:13 |
| lifeless | but we should remember they are two use cases with very different security etc concerns | 21:13 |
| dhellmann | we may in fact need 2 separate things, but I would hate to build 2 of the *same* thing | 21:13 |
| lifeless | so - for my part, I'd like to see boris weigh in on this proposal | 21:13 |
| jokke_ | also listening ops, it sounds like they are not likely running osprofiler on their production environments, so I think it's bad idea to rely on osprofiler for request IDs | 21:13 |
| Rockyg | jokke_: +1 | 21:14 |
| lifeless | jokke_: I don't see why - if you don't enable a component, you don't get what it does. | 21:14 |
| morganfainberg | jokke_: the request Id part could be split out / made default even if osprofiler is off | 21:14 |
| morganfainberg | If that is a real concern. | 21:14 |
| morganfainberg | But I tend to agree with lifeless here. | 21:14 |
| lifeless | jokke_: but - I haven't proposed relying on osprofiler, just saying, lets not throw it out without having the flk behind it in the room | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | yeah, we could split it, but let's get someone to actually do the technical analysis of what both teams need and understand where the cross-over is before we start worrying about what the final implementation details are | 21:15 |
| tpatil | Restful API return x-openstack-request-id so why not return it from client as well? | 21:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | so right now, we give our users request-ids, its part of the REST API already right, in most cases at least, the client work is just returning it to users of the client right? | 21:15 |
| dims | on oslo-incubator there was at least one review merged that saves last request id as part of this bug - https://bugs.launchpad.net/heat/+bug/1342922 | 21:15 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1342922 in heat "request id not captured" [Medium,Triaged] | 21:15 |
| dims | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/117493/ - but no one is using that | 21:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | tpatil: so thats what I was just thinking here | 21:15 |
| lifeless | johnthetubaguy: that makes the scope nice and small and I entirely support showing that to users. | 21:15 |
| SlickNik | dhellmann: I agree. Seems like some discovery / analysis is required here. | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy: so we're already returning this data? | 21:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | nova certainly is, as I understand it | 21:16 |
| morganfainberg | This could also mostly be rolled into session object and just displaying the details on the request like johnthetubaguy indicated. | 21:16 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: not everywhere AIUI, but many places | 21:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | the REST API already returns request-ids | 21:16 |
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| johnthetubaguy | lifeless: right, not everyone is yet | 21:16 |
| * lifeless thinks | 21:16 | |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy: cool, so then maybe part one of the work is just a matter of agreeing on the API for the clients to return that to callers that want it | 21:16 |
| morganfainberg | As long as the api returns the id, it's easy. | 21:16 |
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| jokke_ | dhellmann: I like the idea of analyzing, but the situation seems to be that tpatil and guys are pretty much trying to implement something now. And I don't blame them looking how long this bikeshedding has been going on | 21:17 |
| lifeless | osprofiler is server side. Insofar as the changes are just client side, I see no reason to force a discussion. Its noddy. | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | and file bugs for the APIs that aren't, and implement the return the same way everywhere | 21:17 |
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| dhellmann | jokke_: I hardly think this is bikeshedding. | 21:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | so previous discussions hit a road block when the services start requesting the callers request-id, thats the bit thats new | 21:17 |
| Rockyg | dhellmann: lifeless: +1 | 21:17 |
| dims | have we standardized the rest api header? | 21:17 |
| lifeless | Insofar as there's a defacto standard amongst some N existing APIs, I think propogating that across all openstack APIs is also sane | 21:17 |
| lifeless | but the API WG is where we should have that discussion. | 21:18 |
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| tpatil | python-openstacksdk team agreed to add this support | 21:18 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: + | 21:18 |
| tpatil | #link: #link: https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-openstacksdk/+bug/1465817 | 21:18 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1465817 in OpenStack SDK "Provide method to get latest request id" [Medium,Confirmed] | 21:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | +1 for an API WG spec on the header | 21:18 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: I agree, though I'm ok with going ahead with a defacto standard in the mean time | 21:18 |
| dims | 'x-openstack-request-id' is what's in the oslo-incubator review above | 21:18 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: me too, but I don't want to diminish the WG's momentum | 21:19 |
| bknudson | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.middleware/tree/oslo_middleware/request_id.py#n23 | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: ok | 21:19 |
| bknudson | oslo.middleware uses x-openstack-request-id | 21:19 |
| morganfainberg | dims: i only request we drop "x-" based on the Rfc recommendation to not "x-<header>" anymore | 21:19 |
| morganfainberg | If we can easily change that. | 21:19 |
| elmiko | morganfainberg: +1 | 21:19 |
| dims | morganfainberg: works for me | 21:19 |
| morganfainberg | If it isn't easy to change then keep it x- | 21:19 |
| SlickNik | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.middleware/tree/oslo_middleware/request_id.py#n23 | 21:19 |
| lifeless | morganfainberg: we already have the x- in lots of use | 21:19 |
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| lifeless | morganfainberg: a transition should be discussed separately IMO | 21:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think the ship has sailed though, given we have users relying on these headers where they exist already, but thats something for a different conversation | 21:20 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: we do. If we are adding a new things we should do new thing right. Was my point. | 21:20 |
| morganfainberg | If it already is there don't change it. | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | ok, so I think we're agreeing that part 1 of updating clients to return the value is safe, and that we want all services to use the same header, and the API WG should be involved in setting that but since we have a pretty strong standard already we would expect them to codify it? | 21:20 |
| lifeless | they could codify it and also design the transition logic at the same time, for instance. | 21:20 |
| morganfainberg | Not worth a headache. But if it isn't used/in place we can do it "right" | 21:20 |
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| dhellmann | the step 2 from the etherpad is more where I'm concerned with osprofiler cross-over | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: that would be fine | 21:21 |
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| lifeless | so tpatil whats step 2 about | 21:21 |
| lifeless | tpatil: like, whats the goal | 21:21 |
| tpatil | first we want to achieve step 1 | 21:21 |
| Rockyg | pretty much a linked list of ids I think | 21:22 |
| tpatil | Step 2, We are ok to work how osprofiler fits in here. | 21:22 |
| lifeless | ok | 21:22 |
| dhellmann | ok | 21:22 |
| lifeless | so lets put a pin in step 2 and defer it | 21:22 |
| tpatil | Is it possible to link trace_id with x-openstack-request-id? | 21:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | so the step 2 is the bit I really want to see, when wearing my large operator hat, log messages that link the requests as they flow between projects | 21:22 |
| tpatil | lifeless: ok | 21:22 |
| lifeless | when you've had time to discuss with boris we can come back to it | 21:22 |
| lifeless | johnthetubaguy: have you tried osprofiler? | 21:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | (and ideally notifications along with the logs) | 21:22 |
| lifeless | johnthetubaguy: since it does that ... | 21:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | lifeless: no, mostly due the perceived overhead for running it in production | 21:23 |
| Rockyg | johnthetubaguy: +1 on notifications | 21:23 |
| dhellmann | yeah, osprofiler I think does a lot of that, but it may do some things we *don't* want so we may want to break that up into pieces to let them be consumed separately | 21:23 |
| lifeless | johnthetubaguy: ok - so I think we need to do a deep dive on that with boris. | 21:23 |
| jroll | lifeless: it's not recommended to run osprofiler on every request. only a small subset. | 21:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | lifeless: now thats not a good answer, but its the truthful one | 21:23 |
| lifeless | johnthetubaguy: hah :) | 21:23 |
| Rockyg | Yeah. No ops guy wants to run something named *profiler in production | 21:24 |
| lifeless | jroll: thats from production experience? | 21:24 |
| jroll | lifeless: that's boris' intended use case | 21:24 |
| morganfainberg | Rockyg: yes. | 21:24 |
| lifeless | Rockyg: we can rename it if thats the thing, but we're about to rathole. | 21:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | so back to requirements | 21:24 |
| SlickNik | #info Step 1 in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/request-id seems reasonable - don't tackle step 2 without more information about osprofiler / communication with boris | 21:24 |
| lifeless | Rockyg: very big clouds (Google scale) run nearly the exact same thing all the time | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | it sends notifications right? so we would want to split that off from the thing that handles the request ids | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | SlickNik: ++ | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | before we move on... | 21:24 |
| Rockyg | The key is that the RId has to be low impact process | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | let's talk process, because I want to raise the issue that the cross-project spec was rejected but the team went off and submitted specs to individual projects. I'm not sure I like the bypass that appears to be. | 21:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | when my nova boot fails due to a cinder volume create issue, I want to find the cinder logs from the nova request id my user knows about, and I find in my Nova API logs | 21:25 |
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| johnthetubaguy | s/when my nova/when my customers nova/ | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy: the request chaining that osprofiler provides should allow that, if we push the request id chain down to the logs | 21:25 |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann: some of those specs predated cross project specs. | 21:25 |
| jroll | lifeless: I told boris I want something to collect metrics on every request, he said I sohuld not do that :) | 21:25 |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann: FYI | 21:25 |
| lifeless | jroll: ok, I think boris is perhaps boris' worst enemy. | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | morganfainberg: ok, still. | 21:26 |
| SlickNik | dhellmann: That's interesting — do we have a process in such a case? | 21:26 |
| jroll | lifeless: you realize it puts hundreds of messages on the rabbit bus for each request? | 21:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: agreed, I was just trying to state the use case I care about, (and its perceived that profiler is too heavy weight to do that for all requests, which is what I need here) | 21:26 |
| dhellmann | SlickNik: no, that's why I raised the point. There was a good faith expectation that the cross-project spec would take precedence, since the discussion was already going on there. | 21:26 |
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| lifeless | jroll: its also modular enough to change that fairly easily. | 21:26 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy: yep, we'll solve that | 21:26 |
| lifeless | jroll: I want to take 'internals of osprofiler' offline from this meeting. | 21:26 |
| tpatil | dhellmann: Based on inputs we received from different teams, we took the decision to create bp in the individual python-*client projects. | 21:27 |
| jroll | lifeless: fair | 21:27 |
| Rockyg | tpatil: did you reference it in the spec? | 21:27 |
| dhellmann | tpatil: yes, that's what I'm objecting to. What would you have done if those teams had decided independently that they wanted different things? | 21:27 |
| morganfainberg | tpatil: this just to display back to the user, right? | 21:27 |
| SlickNik | dhellmann: usually I'd expect the vertical teams to push the spec back to the cross-project repo / meeting since it does have a wider impact, but I'm not sure if we have any other process here. | 21:27 |
| jokke_ | dhellmann: SlickNik: Specially as IIRC when the x-project specs were started it was agreement that we move this discussion from the individual specs to the x-project one | 21:27 |
| tpatil | dhellmann: Not yet, but we will do that | 21:27 |
| morganfainberg | jokke_: ++ | 21:28 |
| dhellmann | tpatil: I'm not sure how to interpret that as an answer to my question, were you replying to Rockyg ? | 21:28 |
| morganfainberg | jokke_: that was my understanding. | 21:28 |
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| dhellmann | SlickNik: yes, but I don't necessarily expect the foo-drivers to be aware of the cross-project specs | 21:28 |
| fungi | though it would be really great if they were | 21:28 |
| dhellmann | tpatil: my question was, "What would you have done if those teams had decided independently that they wanted different things?" | 21:29 |
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| dhellmann | fungi: yes, I would love that world | 21:29 |
| Rockyg | dhellmann: that's the issue in a nutshell. xproject doesn't have the visibility it needs | 21:29 |
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| dhellmann | tpatil: I'm raising the issue to make sure we all understand the process, not to point fingers at you for doing something wrong. | 21:29 |
| thingee | dhellmann: the ptl or liaison should be aware of cross project spec to raise it in individual project specs. It has happened many times in cinder. | 21:29 |
| tpatil | dhellmann: May be we have interpreted differently from different groups. Please let us know what is required to fix these issues. we will follow on that path. | 21:29 |
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| dhellmann | thingee: agreed; did that happen, or were these specs approved in the projects? | 21:30 |
| * thingee apologizes for late response. Cell service is bad | 21:30 | |
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| Rockyg | thingee: +1 all ptls of projets concerned with a xproject spec should be on the review list | 21:30 |
| dhellmann | tpatil: My preference would be for you to wait for the cross-project spec to be resolved before proceeding with working on code, or specs within the projects, to avoid different implementations from being out of sync. | 21:30 |
| thingee | dhellmann: assuming you're talking about cinder and the request id spec, I think I've already raised this needs to be approved cross project first already. | 21:31 |
| dhellmann | thingee: I wasn't actually talking about any project in particular, but that's good to hear. | 21:31 |
| tpatil | dhellmann: ok | 21:31 |
| bknudson | a single keystoneclient API call could cause multiple requests, e.g., if you have to refresh the token. So I'm not sure how to return "the" request id. | 21:32 |
| dhellmann | really, I'm not complaining about *this* spec, I'm trying to make sure we have a common understanding of the process in general | 21:32 |
| jokke_ | I also said on the Glance meeting last week that we should resolve the x-project one before starting to implement anything in the project | 21:32 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: great point, maybe it should be a list | 21:32 |
| dhellmann | jokke_: ok, good | 21:32 |
| thingee | dhellmann: is there a particular example of this happening you're talking about? | 21:32 |
| dhellmann | maybe my concern is unfounded, and this is proceeding as expected -- I thought these other specs were approved | 21:32 |
| Rockyg | So, question is: should the client side be in same xproject spec or can it be a link to another xproject spec? | 21:33 |
| jokke_ | but I don't know how many driver actually cross checks specs proposed to other projects/x-project specs | 21:33 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: bknudson: I am confused, the caller just returns a unique id for that specific API call, inside it it knows the other related request ids right,, and logs them and sends notifications, I didn't think they got returned to the end user too? | 21:33 |
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| Rockyg | If they can be accomplished independently, I would think link and sub spec could be approved independent of master? | 21:34 |
| SlickNik | Okay, we need to call time on this and move on to the next item. | 21:34 |
| bknudson | johnthetubaguy: this is step 1 of https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/request-id -- changing the client libs to return the request id. | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy: I think bknudson means if you have a long-lived keystone client it might end up making multiple requests as you use it | 21:34 |
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| SlickNik | tpatil: It looks we have concrete next steps here of driving this through the x-project specs? | 21:34 |
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| SlickNik | to standardize on the approach | 21:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: ah, good point, now I get you both | 21:35 |
| tpatil | SlickNik: I will wait for cross specs to be approved | 21:35 |
| Rockyg | tpatil: just consider yourselves the guinea pig that will help all that follow behind ;-) | 21:35 |
| bknudson | I could do keystoneclient.list_users(), and it calls keystone to get a token and then calls keystone to get the user list. | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | SlickNik, tpatil : do we need a new version of the cross-project spec so we can formally approve that? or is the current draft up to date with the plan we've agreed to here today? | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: good point | 21:36 |
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| dhellmann | bknudson: if this is meant to be used for debugging failures, maybe we only care about the last request made, still? | 21:36 |
| tpatil | dhellman: I think we need a new version here. | 21:36 |
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| lifeless | query bknudson https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186635/ <- done the edits asked for | 21:36 |
| dhellmann | if the token request fails, we'll have that id and if the list call fails we'll have that id | 21:36 |
| SlickNik | #topic New API Guidelines ready for cross project review | 21:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New API Guidelines ready for cross project review (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:36 | |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann / bknudson: or not the auth request. | 21:36 |
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| bknudson | dhellmann: y, that makes sense... maybe a simple function just gets the last call and another function returns all calls | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | tpatil: ok, I'll watch for the update | 21:37 |
| lifeless | so there's design work on how to expose that in the client | 21:37 |
| lifeless | the sdk and the python apis on the clients should all be the same here | 21:37 |
| tpatil | dhellman: sure, we will update it soon. | 21:37 |
| lifeless | I think - I want to see that in an actual cross project spec | 21:37 |
| elmiko | not sure if etoews is around, but we have the 3 guidelines posted in the agenda for reference https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting#Proposed_agenda | 21:37 |
| SlickNik | Looks like this topic is primarily for cross-project visibility | 21:37 |
| elmiko | yea | 21:38 |
| etoews | o/ | 21:38 |
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| elmiko | etoews, did you have anything specific to add about the guidelines up for freeze? | 21:38 |
| SlickNik | etoews: anything you'd like to add here? | 21:38 |
| SlickNik | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/177468/ | 21:38 |
| etoews | nope. just getting these in front of the CPLs. | 21:38 |
| SlickNik | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/181931/ | 21:39 |
| SlickNik | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/183599/ | 21:39 |
| elmiko | thanks SlickNik | 21:39 |
| etoews | they'll also been added as individual reviews on the guidelines too. the more viz the better. | 21:39 |
| etoews | s/reviews/reviewers/ | 21:39 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/183599/ is internally inconsistent | 21:39 |
| lifeless | jaypipes: I've comemnted on it | 21:39 |
| etoews | thx lifeless | 21:40 |
| * nikhil_k back from appt | 21:40 | |
| SlickNik | Sounds good. etoews jaypipes et al.: Thanks for putting this together! | 21:40 |
| etoews | this will be a weekly thing. ;) | 21:40 |
| SlickNik | #topic Add requirements management specification. | 21:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add requirements management specification. (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:41 | |
| thingee | ameade: ^ | 21:41 |
| SlickNik | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186635/ | 21:41 |
| lifeless | ^ I want +A's plox :) | 21:41 |
| lifeless | its been discussed here for visibilty a couple weeks ago and only cosemtic change requests received | 21:42 |
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| morganfainberg | lifeless: sorry I can only +1 so hard. :P | 21:43 |
| jokke_ | lifeless: I do not have powar for +a, but ye got my +1 ;) | 21:44 |
| SlickNik | lifeless morganfainberg: ++ | 21:44 |
| dhellmann | if we get enough +1 on record we can put it on the tc meeting agenda for next week | 21:44 |
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| dhellmann | PTLs or liaisons should read that carefully, though, to understand how big of a change it is going to be | 21:45 |
| SlickNik | Any more questions on this? | 21:45 |
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| Rockyg | yeah. The devil is in the details here. | 21:46 |
| SlickNik | . | 21:46 |
| jokke_ | lifeless: we will haunt ye really bad if that does not solve the issue 'thoug :P | 21:46 |
| hogepodge | who manages upgrading pins? | 21:46 |
| SlickNik | #topic Open Discussion | 21:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:46 | |
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| Rockyg | o/ | 21:46 |
| lifeless | hogepodge: we all do | 21:46 |
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| nikhil_k | Also, should the security related upgrade pins be handled separately ? | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | nikhil_k: how separately? | 21:47 |
| hogepodge | lifeless: from personal experience, it's painful. More painful than world breaking? Don't know | 21:47 |
| * ttx reapplies vote | 21:47 | |
| hogepodge | clarkb: has good views on that, and has be waffling on the idea fwiw | 21:47 |
| Rockyg | Need to ad a repository for use cases managed by Product_wg, and dhellmann suggested a new file in the governance repository, but I was thinking perhaps a file to encompass all wgs rather than just Product? | 21:47 |
| * SlickNik is back after a network hiccup | 21:47 | |
| nikhil_k | dhellmann: dedicated team that involves laisons from all concerned projects | 21:47 |
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| hogepodge | Related to my api topic from last week, there's a really good mailing list thread about glance v1/v2 upgrade on defcore mailing list | 21:48 |
| hogepodge | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/defcore-committee/2015-June/000823.html | 21:48 |
| hogepodge | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/defcore-committee/2015-June/000823.html | 21:48 |
| dhellmann | Rockyg: we already have some other working groups with their own files, so maybe start with a new one for your repo and then a second patch to merge those together into one file? that way we can address the 2 questions separately | 21:48 |
| fungi | hogepodge: i think long-term we want a periodic job which spots new releases of things and tries to run tests with the cap bumped | 21:48 |
| lifeless | hogepodge: there's a cron job to propose pin changes | 21:48 |
| hogepodge | fungi: ++ | 21:48 |
| lifeless | hogepodge: we just need to +2 +A it | 21:48 |
| nikhil_k | but that still is a bit unworthy if the libs that need upgrades are not in openstack control (transient) | 21:48 |
| Rockyg | thanks, dhellmann. wfm | 21:48 |
| lifeless | fungi: we hve that job | 21:49 |
| fungi | nikhil_k: the idea is that we add them all to the new requirements list, transitive or no | 21:49 |
| lifeless | fungi: its in the spec, and its in infra puppet already | 21:49 |
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| fungi | lifeless: true, that's the constraints job | 21:49 |
| lifeless | fungi: we don't need transitive things in requirements. constraints will pick them up automatically. | 21:49 |
| hogepodge | lifeless: I loved working with maven and pinning dependencies in a previous life when I did Java. I also had to schedule time into my milestones for upgrades. | 21:49 |
| lifeless | hogepodge: sure | 21:49 |
| lifeless | hogepodge: we've 1000 folk hacking on openstack, doing it randomly with no testing is just unconsiconable | 21:50 |
| SlickNik | hogepodge: yes, it's difficult to eat your cake and have it too :) | 21:50 |
| jokke_ | hogepodge: """* use glance v2 (only just released, not really deployed anywhere)""" is interesting statement :P | 21:50 |
| nikhil_k | fungi: yeah, I worried about convergence speed vs. security risk more subjectively so, not pushing hard. it's a food for thought :) | 21:50 |
| ttx | hogepodge: you used "love" and "maven" in the same sentence there | 21:50 |
| lifeless | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/requirements+branch:master+owner:lifeless,n,z <- | 21:50 |
| lifeless | thats the top of the implementation stack if you're interested | 21:51 |
| hogepodge | ttx: I feel no shame. I also migrated to clojure and life was amazing | 21:51 |
| * ttx closes eyes | 21:51 | |
| morganfainberg | ttx: where is hogepodge and what happens to him. No one can say love and maven and mean it. | 21:51 |
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| Rockyg | hogepodge may be a lost soul ;-) | 21:51 |
| Rockyg | But, back to the glance discussion hogepodge brought up? | 21:52 |
| ttx | someone must have overtaken his IRC account | 21:52 |
| * ttx likes to disrupt this meeting, but only when he is not chairing it :) | 21:52 | |
| hogepodge | ttx I upgraded my password from 'password123' to my dog's name, so I don't know how that could have happened | 21:52 |
| SlickNik | Any other items for Open Discussion? | 21:52 |
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| Rockyg | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/defcore-committee/2015-June/000823.html | 21:53 |
| SlickNik | If not we can call this a meeting and figure out a way to get hogepodge back. :) | 21:53 |
| Rockyg | the glance/defcore issue | 21:53 |
| hogepodge | srsly, the defcore mailing list item is a good read, and I think I may cross post it to dev | 21:53 |
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| * nikhil_k will respond | 21:54 | |
| johnthetubaguy | so this was mostly me ranting about image uploads | 21:54 |
| ttx | hogepodge: I think it's relevant there, at least a summary of it | 21:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | nikhil_k: I cced you in there, would love feedback on accuracy of my statements | 21:54 |
| nikhil_k | aye | 21:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | basically, I don't see nova supporting glance v2 as a blocker to devcore doing what it wants | 21:54 |
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| ttx | johnthetubaguy: not just you. I heard mordred there too | 21:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | nova has a v1 image API, because we had to, and glance v1 wasn't designed to be exposed to end users | 21:55 |
| Rockyg | ttx: but mordred was moaning about glane and *so* much more | 21:55 |
| hogepodge | In my perfect world, nova supports both and it's a complete non-issue. I want to help move that forward. | 21:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | we would love to delete that, but know thats now almost impossible | 21:55 |
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| johnthetubaguy | its used to much | 21:55 |
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| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: so I don't think thats at all relevant, but as I said, I might be missing something | 21:56 |
| jokke_ | hogepodge: you're probably flaper87's new best friend with that statement | 21:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | now its something we have wanted in Nova for a long time, but the work has just not been completed yet | 21:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | the bigger question is | 21:56 |
| hogepodge | johnthetubaguy: we test the nova proxy to glance, as glance isn't directly a required component | 21:57 |
| fungi | so the concern, as i recall it, was that to test the cloud tempest first wants to be able to upload an image into it and then boot from that. so i guess the suggestion is to upload via glance v2 if present, then try v1 if not? | 21:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | we need a single API to list images and upload and download images | 21:57 |
| jokke_ | johnthetubaguy: just quick correction. Image API v2 has been around for couple of years, the work for nova to consume it, is quite recent | 21:57 |
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| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: the proxy will only ever support v1, but I don't see how that blocks people | 21:57 |
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| hogepodge | a way forward may be to just require glance capabilities, then allow switching between v1 and v2' | 21:57 |
| dhellmann | why does nova need to consume glance v2 for it to be present and useful in the cloud for testing? | 21:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | jokke_:agreed its been around, I was told it only got released as such in kilo, which surprised me | 21:58 |
| hogepodge | johnthetubaguy: if we're ok with vendors having to implement v1, even if only privately for nova | 21:58 |
| dhellmann | hogepodge: can't we just say "expose glance v2, that's the public API"? | 21:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: thats my point | 21:58 |
| nikhil_k | v2 work in nova isn't recent, fyi | 21:58 |
| hogepodge | dhellmann: see proxy and capabilities clause. right now, nova api is required for images for defcore | 21:58 |
| nikhil_k | it's complicated (can be) | 21:58 |
| hogepodge | dhellmann: that can be changed, though. | 21:58 |
| dhellmann | hogepodge: yes, I think that's exactly what we're saying: glance has 2 APIs, one is private one is public, you need both | 21:59 |
| hogepodge | with enough input | 21:59 |
| jokke_ | johnthetubaguy: oh :P ... I think that's someone taking the fact bit wrong that _both_ of the API's were marked current and we changed v1 to Supported only in kilo after realizing that | 21:59 |
| nikhil_k | and can you have openstack w/o glance, huh | 21:59 |
| dhellmann | I mean, it's the same API process, right? | 21:59 |
| mtreinish | hogepodge: which honestly is something that never made sense to me | 21:59 |
| hogepodge | mtreinish: we had to start somewhere | 21:59 |
| SlickNik | Okay, we're at the hour — so we'll have to continue the conversation after the meeting. | 21:59 |
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| hogepodge | mtreinish: One of my bigger concerns is the disconnect between tests and endpoints. | 21:59 |
| SlickNik | But that's it for today's cross project meeting. | 21:59 |
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| dhellmann | hogepodge: yes, I think we should encourage defcore to not use nova's proxy APIs for anything where there is a public API in another project. So that wasn't the case before, but now it is, so... | 22:00 |
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| SlickNik | #endmeeting | 22:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | nikhil_k: you can do volumes only but yeah, thats an odd one | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 23 22:00:21 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-06-23-21.03.html | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-06-23-21.03.txt | 22:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-06-23-21.03.log.html | 22:00 |
| SlickNik | Thanks all! | 22:00 |
| mtreinish | hogepodge: the tests map 1:1 with either the proxy or the glance versioned endpoint | 22:00 |
| elmiko | thanks SlickNik ! | 22:00 |
| mtreinish | that's why there are 3 copies of all the tests :) | 22:00 |
| jokke_ | thanks | 22:00 |
| mtreinish | hogepodge: we can pick this up elsewhere | 22:00 |
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| hogepodge | mtreinish: :-D | 22:00 |
| Rockyg | thanks! | 22:01 |
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| ttx | SlickNik: thx! | 22:01 |
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