Tuesday, 2015-06-23

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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 23 08:01:21 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:01
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anteayaeantyshev: how are you?08:01
eantyshevanteaya: me great, but our CI experienced connectivity problems with review.openstack.org yesterday at around 15:00 UTC08:02
anteayado tell?08:03
* anteaya looks up logs08:03
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anteayaI wasn't online at that time08:03
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anteaya#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-infra/%23openstack-infra.2015-06-22.log.html#t2015-06-22T15:07:1908:04
eantyshevanteaya: I occasionaly see talks in #openstack-infra about gerrit problems...08:04
anteayait was being disussed at that time08:05
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anteayalooking to see if gerrit was restarted08:05
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anteayaso far I don't see it08:08
anteayaeantyshev: are you connected now to gerrit?08:08
lennyb_Hi all, we experienced gerrit issues yesterday as well08:08
lennyb_infra knew and were working on it08:08
eantyshevanteaya: now everything ok08:08
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lennyb_btw, I am thinking to add workaround into our CI, in case of git issues to abort the job instead of failing it.08:09
anteayaeantyshev: great08:09
anteayalennyb_: hi lenny08:10
anteayawhat kind of workaround?08:10
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eantyshevlennyb_: how long did it last? could it be workarounded by retry?08:10
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lennyb_anteaya: checking output of the ./stack.sh, perhaps even parse the log to see the error. I think retrying will put git in additional stress,08:11
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lennyb_I need to see, maybe there is a plugin in the Jenkins for retries08:12
anteayalennyb_: okay if you do try something use the ci-sandbox repo to expriment08:13
lennyb_anteaya: sure.08:13
anteayaand make sure your results are 1) as you expect, 2) useful to others08:13
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anteayaand yes, let's not additionally stress git.o.o08:14
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anteayado we have anything more to say on this topic?08:16
anteayaI was offline yesterday and will be offline most of today08:16
anteayaso I wasn't keeping uptodate on the latest activity with gerrit08:17
eantyshevanteaya: say that I'm experiencing connection problems to review.o.o right now :(08:17
anteayaso I am just looking at the infra channel logs08:17
anteayaeantyshev: you are right now?08:17
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eantyshevanteaya: http://paste.openstack.org/show/316039/08:18
anteayasomeone just posted to infra that they were having an issue08:18
eantyshevanteaya: then perhaps I'll move there to discuss?08:19
anteayano you don't have to08:19
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anteayajust stating the timing of the comment08:19
anteayaand that someone else seems to confirm that08:20
anteayanow why are you cloning from review.o.o at this point?08:20
anteayais this to fetch the patch to be tested?08:20
anteayaor is this to clone cinder master?08:20
anteayabecause all but the patch(es) to be tested should be cloned from git.o.o, not review.o.o08:21
anteayacan you see that?08:21
eantyshevanteaya: this is from devstack-gate, let me look closer...08:22
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eantyshevanteaya: found it, that's my code for applying custom review, good coincidence we can remove it now08:25
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anteayaokay great08:26
anteayalet's do that08:27
eantyshevanteaya: but there is common code for applying selected change: http://paste.openstack.org/show/316083/08:27
anteayaand in future if you write any custom code, please clone from git.o.o08:27
anteayaand only clone from review to fetch the patch being tested08:27
anteayathat fetches the patch or patches to be tested08:28
eantyshevanteaya: understood08:28
anteayaand the only place you can get that is gerrit08:28
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anteayabut please get everything else you can from git.o.o08:28
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eantyshevanteaya: ok08:28
anteayasince that is the expectation we have and the workflow we use08:28
anteayaanything more on this topic right now?08:29
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eantyshevanteaya: no08:29
anteayadoes anyone have anything else they would like to discuss?08:29
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anteayaif no I don't want to keep you up08:32
anteayaany objection to me closing the meeting?08:32
anteayahearing no objection I will now close the meeting08:33
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anteayathanks everyone for your attendance and participation08:34
anteayasee you next week08:34
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"08:34
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 23 08:34:25 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:34
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-08.01.html08:34
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-08.01.txt08:34
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-08.01.log.html08:34
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Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 23 13:00:20 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
Qimingplease add/edit agenda items here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda13:01
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Qimingfirst of all, action from last meeting13:02
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QimingI have checked with openstacksdk about their roadmap/plan for migrating from stackforge to openstack13:02
haiweigood news?13:03
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Qimingthe answer is the same as last time I checked13:05
Qimingthey have been focusing on hardening the code at the moment13:05
Qimingmigrating to openstack namespace is not yet the top priority13:05
Qimingit is on their their todo list13:05
Qimingjudge it by yourself, haiwei, :)13:05
Qiming#topic test case coverage13:05
*** openstack changes topic to "test case coverage (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:05
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Qimingso ... for any project to be considered mature enough, it has to have a stable design, no radical changes to the architecture is expected13:05
haiweiit's on the todo list, so not bad I think13:06
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Qiminganother criteria is to have test case coverage13:06
Qimingthat is one of our big problems as of today13:06
Qimingif you check here: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/senlin/tree/senlin/tests13:06
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jruanohi qiming... sorry im late. on the heat call as well13:07
Qimingwe have api, engine test cases there13:07
Qiminghi, jruano, glad you can attend both, ;)13:07
yanyanhuagree with you, Qiming, and we also don't have integration test yet13:08
Qimingwe don't have any test cases for policies, profiles, drivers, actions13:08
Qimingthat would mean quite some work to do13:08
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haiweiwhat about the coverage of senlin currently, do you have a number of it Qiming13:08
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Qimingexactly, yanyanhu, funtional testing is also very important13:08
Qiminghaiwei, check tox.ini, there is a command you can run and get the report13:09
jruanotox -e cover13:09
Qimingmy rough estimation is about 50% or so13:17
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haiweiin the client side, seems less13:17
lkarmdoes openstack require a specific number for test coverage?13:17
Qimingbefore we are getting our hands dirty, I'd like to propose a split of the cluster_action.py file, for example13:17
Qimingit is too big, too complex13:17
karolynHi Qiming, sorry I'm late13:17
Qiminglkarm, not that I'm aware of13:17
Qimingnice see you here, karolyn13:17
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Qiminggood test case coverage is a strong proof of code maturity13:17
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Qimingwriting test cases is fun, :)13:17
haiweiok, let's do it13:17
Qimingso, please try navigate the source tree, and find some modules to work on13:17
haiweiit also helps understand the function of senlin13:17
Qimingdefinitely, haiwei13:17
yanyanhumaybe we can also add this work to TODO.rst13:17
Qimingplease raise questions if you are not familiar with writing test cases13:17
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haiweino problem13:17
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Qimingyes, give them a higher priority seems not a bad idea13:17
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haiweino problem13:19
yanyanhubesides the exception type design, and I think we may also need to consider where to catch and how to conver these exceptions13:19
yanyanhuespecially those ones from driver13:19
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Qimingany questions so far?13:19
yanyanhusince I think most of them should not be exposed to enduser13:19
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Qimingyanyanhu, I believe haiwei is on the right track: catch them as internal errors, expose to users when necessary, with clear message translated13:20
yanyanhuhmm, actually when I was working the patch of lb-policy, sometimes, I'm a little confused about how to catch them13:20
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Qimingif you have come up an idea, we can discuss it13:21
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Qimingor we can discuss the problems you met13:21
yanyanhuyes, you are right. Just I'm thinking something more detailed, e.g. whether we should catch exception in create_lb or attach method in lb_policy module13:21
yanyanhulike in this patch13:22
haiweiyanyanhu, I saw your patch, currently raise exception.Error is ok, I think, you can also raise exception.InternalError, if you are sure that is an internal error13:22
Qimingin that case, I'd suggest we start with a better structure of the lb specific code13:22
Qimingonce the layer/structure is there, we will have a better idea how to catch/filter/translate exceptions13:22
yanyanhuhaiwei, yes, I think the type of exception that raised from driver should be finally changed13:22
haiweiin the future, we will delete exception.Error and use exception.InternalError instead13:23
yanyanhuQiming, yes, this is what I'm thinking13:23
Qiminghaiwei, +113:23
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Qimingyanyanhu, still reading your patch, will post comments tomorrow13:23
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yanyanhuok, thanks13:24
Qimingokay, let's move on13:24
Qiming#topic talk proposal for Tokyo summit13:24
*** openstack changes topic to "talk proposal for Tokyo summit (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:24
Qimingthe deadline is drawing near, we will have some company internal reviews before submission13:24
QimingI hope someone from the team can get an opportunity to give the audience a deepdive13:25
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Qimingnot just a design summit session, I mean a talk for the conference13:25
haiweiwe have propose one13:26
yanyanhuthat will be great13:26
Qiminglkarm, karolyn, jruano, do you have travel plans for the summit?13:26
jruanoi will be attending13:26
lkarmI'm trying to get my team to send me but nothing official yet13:26
jruanoso i am more than willing to help13:26
Qimingokay, in any case, I will propose haiwei to be one of the presenters13:27
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haiweiwe can have a session held by more than one person13:27
Qiminghaiwei is located in Tokyo13:27
haiweiyes, I am 100% there I think :)13:27
Qimingif, for any reasons, we cannot go there, there is still be someone showing up13:27
yanyanhuright :)13:28
haiweiyou are sure coming, right?13:28
QimingI'll start a draft of the talk proposal and send you all for review tomorrow13:28
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Qiminghaiwei, nothing official yet13:28
Qiminghopefully, I will be there, :)13:28
karolynI'm with Lisa, we are hoping, but nothing official yet13:29
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Qimingkarolyn, let's try our best, :)13:29
haiweiTokyo is not far from Beijing, you can come I think, Qiming13:29
Qimingjust refreshed the agenda wiki, nothing was added besides these topics I have in mind13:30
Qiminghaiwei, sure, I will swim there13:30
Qiming#topic open discussions13:30
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:31
Qiminganything you want to talk about?13:31
yanyanhuhi, Qiming, I'm thinking whether we should give a time schedule for each TODO item13:31
haiweiabout the presentation, you will mainly use the slides shown in the last summit?13:31
yanyanhuto make it easier to track their progress13:32
Qimingokay, a schedule sounds good13:32
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yanyanhumaybe just a brief plan given by the owner13:32
QimingI've copied the milestones for Liberty cycle13:32
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lkarmyeah i think having a schedule is a good idea13:33
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Qimingwe can assign todo items to each milestone: L2, L3, for example13:33
yanyanhuyes, something like that13:33
Qimingshould we use blueprints for test cases?13:34
yanyanhuI think it's a good idea13:34
haiweiI think it's not bad13:34
yanyanhumaybe one bp for each module13:35
Qimingor bug reports?13:35
Qimingit looks a little weird to have bps for test cases13:35
Qiminghow about we report each missing test case as a bug13:35
haiweinot bug reports, each module may need many patches to it13:36
Qimingthen we track the "bugs"13:36
jruano+1 Qiming, i think so too...13:36
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yanyanhuhmm, if using bug report, I think the unit can be smaller, like lb policy, autoscaling policy13:36
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Qimingblueprints, to some extents, are for new features13:36
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Qimingyanyanhu, exactly like that13:36
lkarmyeah i bug report makes sensu and agree with yanyanhu should be smaller units13:37
lkarm*makes sense13:37
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Qiming#action everyone work hard to file "bugs"13:37
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haiweia module a bug report?13:38
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Qimingyes, haiwei, that sounds a plan13:38
Qimingif the module is too big, like the cluster_action module I just mentioned, we may need to split the module first13:38
haiweibut to one module, you may need to submit many patches13:38
Qimingor in your patches, you can add tag: #partial-bug: #12345613:39
openstackbug 123456 in xine-lib (Ubuntu) "podcast crashes amarok" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/12345613:39
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haiweiIt is difficult to handle big modules13:39
Qimingmeetbot is smart13:39
Qiminghaiwei, if the module is too big, we need to split either the module or the test case13:40
yanyanhujust like 'partially implement blueprint'13:40
Qimingany module beyond 2000 lines would be a headache for maintenance13:40
Qimingit will cause a lot of rebases when people are working on the same module13:40
haiweibut if a patch is more than 100 lines, it's also difficult to review13:41
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Qimingfor test cases, it won't be very difficult, haiwei, don't worry13:41
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haiweiok, just like you said, we have a try13:42
yanyanhuI think for the start point of test cases, it's difficult to avoid big patch...13:42
Qiminglet's give it a try and see if it works13:42
Qimingplans are meant to be changed13:43
Qiminganything else?13:43
haiweiI will have a morning vocation again tomorrow :)13:43
Qimingwe can end the meeting a little bit early?13:43
Qiminghaiwei, package me, I want to go13:44
yanyanhuyes, I guess so :)13:44
jruanooh, thomas said he will move heat meetings to wed to avoid conflict here13:44
Qimingthank you all for your time13:44
Qiminglet's move to #senlin13:44
yanyanhuyes, jruano, I also saw that reschedule13:44
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:45
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 23 13:45:05 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:45
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openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-06-23-13.00.html13:45
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-06-23-13.00.txt13:45
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-06-23-13.00.log.html13:45
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bauzas#startmeeting nova_scheduler15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 23 15:00:48 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is bauzas. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova_scheduler)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova_scheduler'15:00
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bauzasmorning folks15:01
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bauzas(or pick the one you are)15:01
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edleafegood $time_of_day to you15:01
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edleafewe should just adopt UGT: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html15:02
bauzaswaiting the crowd15:02
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bauzasedleafe: interesting :)15:02
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edleafealex_xu_ won't be on - he has a new daughter today15:02
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edleafewe're going to have a long wait if you want a crowd :)15:04
bauzasedleafe: well, I should say that Justin Bieber is there15:04
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edleafethen I'm outta here15:05
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NotJustinBieberedleafe: do you prefer then ?15:05
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edleafemuch better15:05
NotJustinBieber(btw. this nick is registered. so awesome)15:05
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lxsliI couldn't get xi :(15:06
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NotJustinBieberokay enough kidding, we're 315:06
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nihiliferhello everyone15:06
bauzasnihilifer: hi15:06
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bauzasso, let's start then15:07
bauzas#topic Specs process15:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs process (Meeting topic: nova_scheduler)"15:07
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bauzasso, we agreed on putting our review requests in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/liberty-nova-priorities-tracking15:07
bauzasI just stroked the specs which were merged15:07
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bauzasso, we're in a good shape for working15:08
bauzasat least the two main ones (request-spec-object and resource-objects) are approved for Liberty, thanks to jaypipes and lxsli15:08
edleafeStill waiting on NoValidHost reporting15:09
bauzasso, there are 2 specs requests waiting for approval15:09
edleafeseems like people wanted it to solve every problem instead of just one :)15:09
bauzasedleafe: yeah, I saw that15:09
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bauzasedleafe: I'm going to do another pass by today if I can, so if I'm happy, I could put that one as "given +1 from the subteam"15:10
bauzasedleafe: to be clear, I would like to see that spec worked for Liberty15:10
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lxsliedleafe: My preferred response to such is "that's a great idea you are welcome to propose in a follow-on spec"15:10
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edleafebauzas: that actually happened15:11
bauzasedleafe: I think you scoped the spec correctly15:11
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* jaypipes on a hangout...15:11
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bauzasedleafe: I was having some concerns about the scalability on that, so I need a few more time for thinking about that15:11
edleafebauzas: Sure - it went through several scenarios before I settled on this one15:12
bauzasedleafe: I got your reply on the IO concern, I'm now still a little concerned about the memory usage15:12
edleafebauzas: most were highly un-scalable15:12
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bauzasedleafe: agreed, hence why I need some time to review your spec - because I don't want to argue against something previously having a consensus15:12
edleafebauzas: exactly. To reduce memory, I'd have to log every step15:12
edleafebauzas: then that would clutter the logs uselessly15:13
bauzasedleafe: okay, lemme give some time to think about it15:13
edleafeof course15:13
bauzasedleafe: the real question behind that is "does that honestly need a spec ?'15:13
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edleafeWell, since there are concerns about the effect of the implementation, I'd say 'yes'15:14
bauzasedleafe: you're not changing the APIs (neither REST or RPC), you're not persisting something, you're not adding something in a dict etc.15:14
bauzasedleafe: okay, I would propose you to put the BP as questionable for the next nova meeting if it deserves a spec15:14
bauzasedleafe: because I've seen more controversial BPs getting approved without a spec15:15
edleafebauzas: yeah, I got no feedback on the BP itself15:15
bauzasedleafe: I mean, we can still argue about the implementation15:15
edleafeso I wrote the spec15:15
bauzasedleafe: and discuss on technical details, but that can be done directly in the implementation15:15
bauzasedleafe: having no specs doesn't necessarly mean it's trivial :)15:15
edleafewell, part of the idea of a spec is to argue *before* time is spent on an implementation15:16
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bauzasedleafe: agreed, but like I said, I can see a general consensus on the design while some discussion happens on the implementatioon15:16
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bauzasedleafe: I mean, I saw nobody complaining about logging stuff - rather about detailsd15:16
edleafebauzas: yeah, it's not a clearly defined border between "needs spec" and "no spec required"15:17
bauzasedleafe: so maybe it would be worth asking the question in a nova mereting15:17
nihiliferabout the "does that honestly need a spec?" question15:17
bauzasedleafe: because we do have a topic for that15:17
nihilifersome time ago I "resurrected" an old spec, not approved for Juno15:17
bauzasedleafe: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova#Agenda_for_next_meeting15:17
bauzasnihilifer: yup ?15:18
nihiliferI had some doubts whether it needs spec or not15:18
nihilifersince it's a filter15:18
nihiliferbut it also requires new conf option15:18
bauzasnihilifer: see my last comment :)15:18
nihiliferoh, it's you :)15:18
nihiliferthat's what I wanted to ask about15:19
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bauzasnihilifer: so, there are some examples15:19
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bauzasnihilifer: see http://docs.openstack.org/developer/nova/devref/kilo.blueprints.html#when-is-a-blueprint-needed15:20
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bauzasnihilifer: given your proposal, I can see it as a self-contained change15:20
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nihiliferbauzas: ok, then I will just begin work on it15:21
nihiliferbauzas: thanks for clarification15:21
bauzasnihilifer: the same as for edleafe, I would recommend you to officially ask in https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova#Agenda_for_next_meeting15:21
bauzasnihilifer: but I'm clearly pro-BP only15:22
bauzasnihilifer: in case of a needed spec, just resurrect it15:22
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lxslimy 2p is I'd like a "trivial specs" process, so in cases like this where someone has taken the trouble to write a spec, we can fast-track it rather than abandoning the spec15:22
edleafebauzas: I prefer the spec discussions myself15:22
bauzasnihilifer: hence the formal question 'do I need a spec' during the nova meeting15:22
lxslithat's not really a subject for the scheduler meeting though15:22
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bauzaslxsli: my idea on that is that we can't hardly assume the current spec backlog15:23
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bauzaslxsli: so, we probably indeed need some way to ask for drafting out a design doc if needed15:23
bauzasbut only if needed15:23
lxslibauzas: things "too simple to need a spec" naturally make for easy, quick spec reviews though, no?15:23
bauzasedleafe: see the examples on the link I provided15:23
lxslibauzas: and this process may reveal it wasn't quite as simple as was initially thought15:24
bauzasedleafe: there are 2 examples of filters changes not requiring a sepc15:24
edleafebauzas: agreed15:24
bauzaslxsli: agreed, that's an on-going improvment process15:24
lxsliI may be biased because I find writing in English quite easy ^^;15:24
bauzaslxsli: so I will officially ask johnthetubaguy to ask for specs written in French only15:25
bauzasenough kidding15:25
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bauzaslast spec is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/179224/15:25
bauzas#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/179224/15:25
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bauzasstill needs some approval, because there is a REST API change15:26
bauzas(plus a behavioural change)15:26
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bauzasso I chatted with jaypipes, let's see if he will obviously kill my idea or support it :)15:26
bauzasany specs to mention before we move on ?15:27
lxslidoesn't seem obviously crazy15:27
bauzaslxsli: feel free to review the spec, I could mark it as 'given +1 from a subteam member' accordingly :)15:27
edleafelxsli: emphasis on 'obviously' :)15:27
lxslithis got merged for Juno but afaik nothing has happened with it15:27
lxslibauzas: dansmith assigned me a tonne of work to do with no-more-soft-delete, I've been wading through that :(15:28
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bauzaslxsli: no excuses, you gotta review !15:28
dansmithlxsli: assigned? :P15:28
dansmithlxsli: it's much appreciated though15:28
lxslidansmith: suggested ^^15:28
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bauzaslxsli: don't you work 24x7 ?15:28
lxsliI am strenuously avoiding that!15:28
bauzasanyway, so back to 8490615:29
bauzaslxsli: that spec would require a refresh for Liberty anyway, so there are litterally very little chances we could work on it for this cycle15:29
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lxsliyeah, does it seem plausible for Mita ?15:29
bauzaslxsli: also, I think some work has to be done before that one15:29
bauzaslxsli: don't say the name :p15:30
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bauzaslxsli: so, even Muppet, I dunno15:30
lxsliSorry, Muppet :)15:30
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bauzaslxsli: ndipanov is planning to work on something about claims within the scheduler, and also fix the missing gaps with claims for Libertyy15:31
bauzaslxsli: sec, giving you the specs15:31
lxslibauzas: awesome, thanks15:31
bauzaslxsli: so I would definitely prefer ndipanov's work be done before we persist those15:31
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bauzaslxsli: and honestly, I would also prefer resource-objects to be landed *before* that15:31
lxslibauzas: that's cool, just getting a sense of where we are15:31
lxsliyep definitely15:31
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lxsliI still need to look at John's scheduler-evolution thing :(15:32
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bauzaslxsli: so the specs are15:32
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bauzaslxsli: I still need to provide an update too15:32
bauzaslxsli: I basically promised it to johnthetubaguy15:32
edleafebauzas: also https://review.openstack.org/18773915:32
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bauzasedleafe: your point on that one? thought we discussed about it before ?15:33
edleafebauzas: I thought you were listing outstanding specs needing review15:34
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lxsliedleafe: that's a no-valid-host spec, did you paste the wrong one?15:34
bauzasedleafe: oh, you mean the specs being worked for Liberty ? yeah, we're tracking them15:34
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bauzasedleafe: no worries, I'm trying to keep the etherpad of doom up-to-date15:34
bauzasok, moving on ?15:34
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bauzas3 ?15:35
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bauzas#topic Open discussion15:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: nova_scheduler)"15:35
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bauzasoh sec15:35
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x9668350>15:35
bauzas#topic new meeting time15:36
*** openstack changes topic to "new meeting time (Meeting topic: nova_scheduler)"15:36
bauzasedleafe: you had an action for this15:36
edleafejaypipes said that Monday might be a little better than Tue-Wed15:36
edleafeI'm wondering if it's worth doing another Doodle to see if that would work for everyone15:37
ndipanovpersist what bauzas ?15:37
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bauzasedleafe: fair15:37
lxsliedleafe: Monday is fine for me15:37
edleafeok, then I'll send out the doodle message later today15:37
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edleafe#action edleafe to create Doodle for Monday meeting options15:38
bauzasndipanov: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/84906 given by lxsli15:38
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bauzas#action edleafe to create Doodle for Monday meeting options15:38
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bauzasok, moving on15:38
bauzas#topic open discussion15:38
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bauzasI have nothing to say but that I'm incrementally updating the request-spec-object BP15:39
bauzasreviews are welcome if you're fed up by reviewing specs15:39
xyhuanghey guys may i have 1 more request for review...15:39
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bauzasxyhuang: strange, I thought I said it needs a spec15:40
bauzasxyhuang: because it changes the interface between nova and the scheduler15:41
xyhuangthanks bauzas, will do a spec15:41
bauzasxyhuang: that's MHO, probably someone could say something else15:42
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lxsli+1 to spec15:42
edleafebauzas: I would tend to agree15:42
bauzasxyhuang: that said, I wrote a spec for amending the future RequestSpec object by passing a destination host, so yeah I would love a spec still15:42
bauzasxyhuang: do you know about http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/liberty/approved/request-spec-object.html ?15:43
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xyhuangbauzas: yes15:43
lxslixyhuang: have you seen this? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/184534/15:43
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xyhuangoh probably no...15:44
lxslixyhuang: I've only just seen your patch but it may make sense to provide the network info as resource objects15:44
bauzaslxsli: hence a spec, because I wonder if that's a compute resource or a request information15:44
lxslixyhuang: there's already an implementation patch, for reference: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128992/15:45
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bauzaslxsli: if we claim about it, then you're right15:45
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xyhuanglxsli: thanks will check it out15:45
lxslixyhuang: very welcome :)15:45
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bauzasxyhuang: so yes, I think you should consider how to provide that information/resource to the scheduler15:46
bauzashence the specd15:46
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xyhuangi see15:46
xyhuangso a spec will be done15:46
bauzasxyhuang: that said, do you know that there is a spec freeze deadline by Thur ?15:46
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xyhuangnot aware of that, but will do it asap15:47
bauzasxyhuang: as you would probably require either resource-objects or request-spec-object to be implemented, I think it's difficult to merge the implementation by Liberty but rather the M cycle15:47
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lxsliYes I agree - it's very unlikely it can be done in L15:48
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xyhuangwould it be possible to add it based on the current arch of request-spec? as this may be a small change15:49
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bauzasxyhuang: that's the design discussion which needs to be done15:49
bauzasxyhuang: I mean, is it something that nova-compute is reporting to the scheduler, or is that only a hint given by the user ?15:50
lxslixyhuang: we want to be more strict about what can be in request-spec to aid Nova back-compatibility and stability15:50
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lxslixyhuang: so adding extra stuff to it will make that more difficult, I expect core team will prefer to wait until it's tidier15:51
xyhuangok i see, anyway i will write up the spec and we can discuss later in more details maybe15:51
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bauzasxyhuang: cool15:51
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bauzasokay, any other question/concern before we call that meeting done ?15:52
edleafeat least not from me :)15:53
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lxsliwe seem to have moved to #nova anyway :)15:54
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edleafelxsli: we never left :)15:55
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bauzasI'm still there15:55
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bauzasokay, saying bye bye to the meeting ?15:55
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:56
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 23 15:56:01 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:56
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_scheduler/2015/nova_scheduler.2015-06-23-15.00.html15:56
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_scheduler/2015/nova_scheduler.2015-06-23-15.00.txt15:56
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_scheduler/2015/nova_scheduler.2015-06-23-15.00.log.html15:56
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davidjc  /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER davidjc kmgnficzqrmg16:26
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krtaylor#startmeeting third-party17:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 23 17:00:16 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is krtaylor. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'17:00
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krtaylorWho's here for the Third Party CI Working Group meeting?17:00
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krtaylorhey patrickeast , mmedvede17:01
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krtaylorhi marcusvrn17:01
krtaylorasselin, around?17:01
krtaylorhey asselin17:02
krtaylorthanks everyone for joining17:02
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krtaylorI was hoping that a few would find the new time :)17:02
asselinthis is a more convenient time for me17:03
krtaylorI'll continue to send out email reminders too17:03
marcusvrnfor me too17:03
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krtaylorit was hard to find a time that did not conflict with cinder or neutron17:03
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krtaylorlots of metings17:03
krtaylorand meetings17:03
krtaylorso, please spread the word, hopefully this time will agree with more people17:04
krtaylor#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#6.2F23.2F15_1700_UTC17:04
krtaylorthere's the link for todays agenda17:04
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krtaylor#topic Common CI virtual sprint17:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Common CI virtual sprint (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:06
krtaylorasselin, your up first, do you have any thing to discuss for the sprint17:06
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asselinjust requesting review os zuul patches: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:downstream-puppet+owner:%22Fabien+Boucher+%253Cfabien.boucher%2540enovance.com%253E%22+status:open,n,z17:06
asselinfbo has been working on them. I'd like to prioritize these reviews so we can merge this one next17:07
asselinfbo_, ping if you're around17:07
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asselingoal is to get as much done before the sprint, so we can really finish then17:08
asselinthen=during the sprint17:08
krtaylorsounds like a good plan17:09
krtaylorthe etherpad is listed in the agenda17:09
krtaylor#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint17:09
krtaylorfor completeness17:09
asselin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:downstream-puppet+owner:%22Fabien+Boucher+%253Cfabien.boucher%2540enovance.com%253E%22+status:open,n,z17:09
krtaylormmedvede, I see you ave reviewed some17:09
mmedvedeyes, I did, but I need to do more. I have actually been using some patches for our deploy17:10
asselinmmedvede, wow nice17:10
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krtaylorcan anyone else review?17:10
* krtaylor takes a look17:11
marcusvrnI can try it, I review the code, but I need to test in my deploy to ensure that's working17:11
asselinctlaugh_ said he's interested17:11
asselinmarcusvrn, +117:12
mmedvedemarcusvrn: exactly my sentiment, I do reviews after I test them manually17:12
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mmedvedeI did not look into beaker testing yet17:12
marcusvrnI have a question, there's a simple way to pull the code and test it manually in a current deploy?17:12
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marcusvrncurrent deploy (zuul installed by asselin's scripts)17:13
asselinmarcusvrn, i've been pulling them manually in my /etc/puppet/modules/17:13
asseline.g.  /etc/puppet/modules/openstackci17:14
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marcusvrnasselin: hmmm nice17:14
* krtaylor googles beaker17:14
asselinsudo git checkout....fetch_head copied link from gerrit17:14
asselinmarcusvrn, also used this approach: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/169117/17:15
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marcusvrnasselin: excellent17:15
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krtaylorhm, beaker looks interesting17:16
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krtaylorasselin, anything else that you need help with pre-sprint?17:17
asselinkrtaylor, http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/puppet-module-functional-testing.html17:17
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asselinthat's the spek for testing puppet modules ^^17:17
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asselinkrtaylor, no17:17
krtaylorah, that ties it together, thanks17:18
krtaylor#link  http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/puppet-module-functional-testing.html17:18
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krtaylorany questions for asselin about the sprint?17:18
krtaylornext topic then17:19
krtaylor#topic Move spec to third-party-ci-tools repo17:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Move spec to third-party-ci-tools repo (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:19
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krtaylorI didn't work on this partially because I wanted to get the spec done first17:19
asselinso just to clarify, there are 2 specs now17:20
krtaylorthere really isn't a precedent for moving a spec to a different project, but we'll try to do it a seamlessly as possible17:20
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krtayloryes, one for hosting, one for the complete monitoring solution17:21
krtaylorasselin, ^^^17:21
asselinyeah...looking for links17:21
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krtaylorasselin,  they are both in the agenda17:22
asselinin agenda :)17:22
krtayloryes :)17:22
krtaylorok, so I'm thinking I'll create a specs dir and copy sweston 's monitoring solution spec into it as-is17:23
krtaylorthen we can work it there17:23
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krtaylorthen I'll ask sweston to abandon that one17:23
krtaylorany questions?17:23
asselinif you keep the change id, will gerrit move it?17:23
krtaylorI was wondering that17:24
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krtaylordidn't have a chance to look into it17:24
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swestonsweston's tired ears perked up ... krtaylor I'll work with you on this17:24
krtaylorsweston, hey17:25
swestonkrtaylor: hello!!17:25
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krtaylorthanks, asselin makes a good point17:25
swestonI think he is right17:25
krtaylormaybe you can just git add the spec to the new location17:25
krtaylorand keep all the history17:25
krtaylorthat would be much preferred IMHO17:26
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krtaylorsweston, let me know when would be a good time, I'll be happy to help with that process17:26
mmedvedeI think gerrit patchsets have project associated with it in the db, so not sure that would work without direct db editing17:27
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swestonkrtaylor: ok, I think I will test it out on my gerrit server first, then move forward17:27
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krtaylormmedvede, I know you can add a file in an --amend17:28
asselinyeah...if there's an issue, git review would likely complain similar to updating an abandoned patch...17:28
krtayloroh, the change id is associated with a project?17:28
krtaylorok, that might force the other way then17:28
krtaylorok, either way, we'll get it done this week17:29
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krtaylorsweston, thanks for looking at that, I know you are busy17:29
krtayloranything elase on this?17:29
swestonk, we'll let everyone know how it shakes out, knowledge is good17:29
* krtaylor can't type today17:29
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krtaylorsweston, perfect17:30
swestonkrtaylor: no worries, good to do something else than kernel drivers for a few minutes ;-)17:30
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krtaylorok, next then is17:30
krtaylor#topic Spec to have infra host scoreboard17:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Spec to have infra host scoreboard (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:30
krtaylorI finished a rough draft here:17:30
krtaylor#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194437/17:31
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krtaylorI would really appreciate reviews and comments17:31
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asselinkrtaylor, is it will WIP?17:31
asselinstill *17:32
krtaylorit is modeled after the codesearch hosting spec from fungi17:32
krtaylorasselin, yes, I marked it WIP17:32
* fungi is not sure it's wise to copy from his specs. do so at your own risk ;)17:32
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krtaylorfungi, it was very complete!17:33
asselinfungi, I really liked it...17:33
krtayloranyway, I'd like to get some reviews done on it before allowing it to be considered for merge17:33
krtaylorI had some questions marked in the spec17:34
krtaylorshould we have a storyboard story?17:34
asselinkrtaylor, yes we should17:35
krtaylorit makes sense17:35
asselinstoryboard migraton spec will copy over17:35
krtaylorok, I'll take that as a todo17:35
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krtaylor#action krtaylor to create dashboard hosting story and revise the spec17:36
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krtayloralso, it would be good to have a primary assignee17:37
krtaylorI am open to suggestions  :)17:37
krtaylorI listed me there, and I don't mind doing it, just open to anyone else driving it17:37
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* krtaylor imagines everyone else taking one step back17:38
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krtaylorok, I'll drive it then17:39
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krtaylorat least for now17:39
asselinkrtaylor, some other people might be interested just not present here now17:39
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marcusvrnkrtaylor: what should primary assignee do?17:40
krtaylorasselin, true, I'll be happy to hand over at some future date17:40
asselinkrtaylor, also once the tasks are in storyboard it's easier to divide and conquer17:41
krtaylormarcusvrn, it's the person responsible for making sure it happens, including patches, docs, etc17:41
krtaylorasselin, good point17:41
krtaylorany questions about the content of the spec17:41
krtaylorhas anyone read it yet?  :)17:41
* asselin read draft 1 :)17:42
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marcusvrnkrtaylor: I got it. I'll read it after this meeting17:42
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krtaylorpretty straight forward, new vm, spin up apache with puppet to serve it17:42
patrickeastsry was afk for a few min17:42
* patrickeast looking at spec now17:43
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krtaylorpatrickeast, no worries17:43
mmedvedeI have only skimmed it17:43
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krtaylornot sure we can review it section by section in 15 mins left17:44
krtaylorso, I'll ask everyone to go through it carefully and comment please17:44
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patrickeastwill do17:45
krtaylorits a chance to increase your negative reviews  :)17:45
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marcusvrnkrtaylor: +117:45
krtayloronce it gets a few reviews and corrected, I'll take the WIP off17:46
krtaylorand, if it needs, I can discuss at an infra meeting17:46
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krtaylorany questions about the hosting spec?17:46
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krtaylorelse onward17:47
krtaylor#topic Open Discussion17:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:47
krtaylorso I'll open the floor17:47
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krtaylorany thoughts on how to increase the involvement in these meetings?17:48
krtaylorthat was my todo from summit17:48
krtaylorweekly reminders to openstack-dev, check, what else?17:49
patrickeastfree cookies?17:49
krtaylorI need to get more teams to come and tell us about their system, I think that has been a big success17:49
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asselinkrtaylor, +117:50
patrickeastyea thats a good way to get others involved17:50
krtaylorwe've only done a handfull of those17:50
asselinthose are great17:50
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patrickeastwe could just go down the list of ci systems and reach out17:50
patrickeastasking them to talk to us17:50
krtaylorpatrickeast, exactly17:50
marcusvrnmaybe in the cinder channel which CI is "new" and too many teams are working on it17:51
krtaylormarcusvrn, I agree that a lot of teams are new and using all their time to get it running17:51
krtaylorbut there is a lot of benefit of using that tension to better what we have, a huge part of that is the influence we have made on the common-ci effort17:52
* krtaylor applauds asselin 17:53
krtaylorbut it is a common theme that teams don't have time to do anything "extra"17:53
marcusvrnkrtaylor: yep...17:53
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krtaylornot sure how we can fix that, except to help the teams explain to their management that this is a big commitment17:54
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krtaylormuch bigger than anyone realizes just starting out17:54
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marcusvrnkrtaylor: that what I did.....It was not easy....hehehe17:55
asselinyes....that's why common ci is so important....waste less effort reinventing the wheel and chasing bugs17:55
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krtaylorasselin, agreed, and with the TPCIWG repo, we can also share everything else17:55
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krtaylornow we just need to get more involvement, with 100+ teams it is bizarre that we have 5 or so regulars17:56
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* krtaylor gets off his soapbox17:57
krtayloranything else in the last few minutes?17:57
asselini do...one sec17:57
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asselinplease take a look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/192819/17:58
* krtaylor looks17:58
asselinAdd the ability to abort jobs on a patch merge17:58
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asselin#link Add the ability to abort jobs on a patch merge https://review.openstack.org/#/c/192819/17:58
krtaylorasselin, yes, good patch, I'll comment17:58
marcusvrnasselin: that's really interesting... I'll review it too17:59
peristeriOn the question of getting people involved, a "how-to" document can go a long way.17:59
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asselinperisteri, can you elaborate in -infra?18:00
krtaylorthat's all for today, thanks everyone!18:00
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peristeriasselin, sure18:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 23 18:00:28 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-17.00.html18:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-17.00.txt18:00
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-06-23-17.00.log.html18:00
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asselinbreton, hi...are you here to 3rd party meeting?18:00
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morganfainbergajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, stevemar, topol, wanghong https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:01
morganfainbergit's that time of the week everyone18:01
bretonasselin: nope, sorry, I didn't know it was running18:01
asselinbreton, if so we'll chat in -infra18:01
lbragstadmorganfainberg: o/18:01
lbragstadKeith Stone!18:01
samueldmqolá :)18:01
bknudsonI say "key", you say "stone"18:01
morganfainbergbknudson: congress?18:01
samueldmq**STONE** o/18:01
david8huolá amigo18:01
samueldmqdavid8hu: :-)18:02
morganfainbergok ok so lets seeeeeee...18:02
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morganfainberg#startmeeting Keystone18:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 23 18:02:12 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:02
morganfainberg#topic Liberty-118:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Liberty-1 (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:02
henrynash(sneaks in late)18:02
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morganfainbergLiberty-1 was tagged... seconds ago18:02
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morganfainbergthis means... we're up against our spec proposal freeze deadline18:02
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ayoungPretty sure I've gotten 0 through the review process since the summit18:03
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morganfainbergif the spec isn't approved by the end of the week, we are likely going to need an email thread to just make sure we're on track.18:03
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morganfainbergjust a "hey here is where we are with it, and this is reasonable to hit in liberty"18:03
morganfainbergthis is for API impacting changes18:03
browneso what's the final word on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/role-descriptions.  are we okay without a spec?18:03
morganfainbergnon-api impacting changes can adhere to the previous l2 milestone18:04
morganfainbergbrowne: sec.18:04
bknudsonis there anything that anybody really wants to get in for L?18:04
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ayoungbrowne, that is so low priority18:04
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bknudsonI need to know what spec reviews to focus on.18:04
browneyep agreed18:04
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ayoungbknudson, dynamic policy18:04
htruta_bknudson: you'll soon have the reseller onw18:04
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morganfainbergbknudson: i think the only outstanding specs that need love are around reseller (is_domain, etc) and dynamic policy related18:05
morganfainbergbknudson: for the api-impacting freeze18:05
raildobknudson, we need to decide the token things... so henrynash  proposed this spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/193543/18:05
gyeedynamic is a mother of all specs18:05
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gyeedynamic policy18:05
ayounghttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/192422/  POPlicy by URL is required18:05
morganfainbergwe have either already approved the other API impacting...or it can wait until the next release18:05
gyeeit has many childrens18:05
bknudsonsounds like if I start looking at dynamic policy I'll never finish18:05
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morganfainbergbknudson: i'll let you take that up with ayoung18:06
ayoungbknudson, I had an overview spec, but it was deemed "not a spec"18:06
gyeeayoung, can you prioritize the ones that are *realistic* for Liberty?18:06
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dolphmi have a substantially simpler groups-in-tokens draft that i should have up by tomorrow, assuming barbican folks are okay with a slightly different approach on their end18:06
ayounggyee, my current state of mind says none of it.18:06
morganfainbergdolphm: ok.18:06
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ayoungI'm freaking depressed18:07
bknudsonI wouldn't approve an overview "spec"18:07
morganfainbergdolphm: sounds good, lets keep that one on that one18:07
morganfainbergbknudson: that was why i -2'd it18:07
samueldmqgyee: we're still in the priorization process for L, we'll have a point on it later in this meeting18:07
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samueldmqayoung: shhh plz, don't be depressed :-)18:07
morganfainbergbknudson: the overview spec was not really useful for us. samueldmq did a great job of moving it to the wiki18:07
morganfainbergbknudson: it is much much much better where it is now.18:07
morganfainbergsamueldmq: what was the link for the page?18:07
samueldmqmorganfainberg: thanks :-)18:07
samueldmq#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/DynamicPolicies18:08
marekdsamueldmq: can you link this wiki page?18:08
henrynashmorganfainberg: in terms of policy, I’d like to prioritise ensuring we can avoid the use of domain scoped tokens in L18:08
marekdsamueldmq: oh, thanks18:08
morganfainberghenrynash: that falls under reseller afaict18:08
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morganfainberghenrynash: and yes, that is on the list18:08
ayoungmorganfainberg, and I think that all specs should be moved to the wiki and specs as they exist now should die, but I really don't feel like we are capable of making progress here18:08
morganfainbergayoung: different conversation.18:08
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samueldmqayoung: plz :(18:08
morganfainbergayoung: i'm not opposed to it, but that is not something we can cover with what we have on the agenda today (we can discuss in -keystone as well)18:09
htruta_henrynash, morganfainberg hope we have some room to define the project scoped token today18:09
morganfainbergbut i'm inclined to want that to be a ML topic18:09
david8hubetter if this is a face to face discusion18:09
ayoungwe need to have the discussion with sdague before I can tell you what is worth pushing for18:09
morganfainbergayoung: and that will be soon :)18:09
samueldmqwe have a point for that18:10
morganfainbergok moving on:18:10
morganfainberg#topic Review of Keystone Blueprints for No-Spec Required18:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Review of Keystone Blueprints for No-Spec Required (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:10
morganfainberg#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/role-descriptions18:10
morganfainbergno one said this needed a spec18:10
morganfainbergit is minor18:10
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bknudsonit changes the api so it needs a apec18:10
morganfainbergdoes it change the API?18:10
henrynashhruta_: see my comemnt in gerrit on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/193543/ as the proposal for L18:10
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morganfainbergi think roles already have extra support18:11
bknudsonshould be a short one18:11
morganfainbergthis just amkes it a first class18:11
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gyeebknudson, nah, just use 'extra' :)18:11
morganfainbergok so, anyway browne: ^ this needs a spec.18:11
htruta_henrynash, nice. was on my read list18:11
morganfainbergplease do a minimal one - there should be a lot of N/A in your spec.18:11
bknudsongyee: with extra you could store anything you want!18:11
morganfainbergsince it isn't security, performance, etc18:11
morganfainbergjamie is not here18:12
morganfainbergskipping his topic for the moment18:12
brownemorganfainberg: ok, thanks, np18:12
morganfainbergon to the big one18:12
ayoungbrowne, I'm going to say no to role descriptions18:12
morganfainberg#topic Dynamic Policies: current status, scope for L, cross-project requirements and next steps18:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Dynamic Policies: current status, scope for L, cross-project requirements and next steps (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:12
ayoungroles should not even have ids.18:12
morganfainbergayoung, samueldmq, sdague o/18:12
browneayoung: no in general or no for liberty?18:13
samueldmqso ... overview spec is now a wiki, as we said earlier18:13
samueldmq#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/DynamicPolicies18:13
samueldmqthis is a first try and still have some points to be clarified/defined, including18:13
ayoungOK,  so DYn Policy has stalled trying to make sure we can handle sdague 's concerns ...specifically about microversions?18:13
samueldmqi) how to represent nova microversions, what support is needed on oslo.policy18:13
samueldmqii )whether we should unify the policy files or not18:13
morganfainbergsamueldmq: any service microversions (nova is just the first)18:13
samueldmqthose are the two points we'd like to address in this initial discussion :)18:13
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sdagueayoung: I think that's a pretty unfair characterization honestly18:13
samueldmqmorganfainberg: ++18:13
ayoungI think that was the crux of what you were concerned about:  that if a new version of Nova came out with new microversioned APIs, it would need to have the default policy embedded?18:14
ayoungsdague, I',m trying to understand your concern18:14
bretonwhy do we even have policies as json and not as python functions?18:14
sdaguebreton: ++18:14
sdaguesee my initial mailing list thread about embedding base policy in code18:14
ayoungbreton, policy was designed as something that is tweakable in deployment18:14
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morganfainbergat some level we need some amount of customization. but there is no reason we can't embed base policy in code (no technical reason)18:14
ayoungsdague, so, I thin I actually agree with you18:14
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morganfainberg#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-June/065496.html18:15
ayoungbut not quite as you might have seen it:18:15
bretonhaving them pythonic would lets us use classes hierarchy and stuff18:15
gyeebreton, not all security auditors know how to read python code18:15
ayounggyee, stop18:15
ayoungthat is not helpful18:15
samueldmqbreton: gyee that's a separate conversation I think ... how to represent it18:15
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morganfainberggyee: lets leave that out - no one knows how to read policy.json either18:15
ayoungthe real issue is whether they are customizable buy the end user18:15
ayoung and I think the complaint is that the current policy mechanism is too brittle18:15
ayoungyou can easily break things, etc18:15
bknudsonfrom what I've seen of the default policies they're a long ways from what they should do.18:16
ayoungbknudson, agreed18:16
bknudsonas far as giving you a deployment that prevents users from doing what they shouldn't18:16
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ayoungand that is what I've been trying to solve.  sdague is also trying to solve a comparable problem with microversions, and I think the two have the possibility of conflicing, which is why I startexd with that18:16
bknudsone.g., the "nova" service user has "admin"18:16
samueldmqI think two main points we should be addressing here should be18:16
samueldmqi) how to represent nova microversions, what support is needed on oslo.policy18:17
samueldmqii )whether we should unify the policy files or not18:17
ayoungsamueldmq, hold on18:17
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morganfainbergayoung: i agree with samueldmq18:17
ayoungthe main point, samueldmq as we said before, is to try to get to "common meaning of policy"18:17
morganfainbergbut inverting the order18:17
ayoungmorganfainberg, I don't disagree, just he's jumping ahead18:17
samueldmqmorganfainberg: ++18:17
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morganfainbergayoung: ok18:18
ayounglet's define the problem:18:18
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morganfainbergayoung: just making sure we're still on track18:18
ayoungso we start with but 968696.  That is due to the admin role being origianlly defined as a global role18:18
ayoungthat pattern spread, but we were working towards scope18:19
ayoungall roles should be scoped to some project or domain18:19
ayounglets just use the word project to mean both for now18:19
bknudsonwhy should all roles be scoped to a project?18:20
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ayoungso  lets say that we first just want to get it so that all of the policy enforcement can deal with "admin on a project"  as the primariy sdope of control18:20
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ayoungbknudson, I think you are misunderstanding18:20
ayoungroles are defined as assigned to a project18:20
bknudsonyou said "all roles should be scoped to some project or domain" and I asked why.18:21
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morganfainbergayoung: defined as an assignment of a user with X role on Y Project? or are you saying something else?18:21
ayoungwhat I think you are asking is "should the power that implies be limited to resources in that project"18:21
ayoungbknudson, we don't have global roles in Keystone anymore.  dolphm did away with them several releases ago18:21
ayoungpretty sure it was dolphm18:21
ayoungmorganfainberg, yes  that is correct18:21
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samueldmqgroups/domains ...18:22
ayoungsamueldmq, users don't have roles in groups18:22
morganfainbergok so i have a silly question.18:22
ayoungand we are treateing domains as projects for this discussion18:22
morganfainbergignoring keystone [we're special in this case]18:22
samueldmqI think we should go directly to the points we're trying to address ... we won't have enough time to talk about all the details18:22
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samueldmqI'd prefer to say ... an approach is to unify policies, which has those advantags .. but there are  some issues, as pointed out by sdague18:23
ayoungso...lets address the point that sdague and breton brought up18:23
samueldmqso people would be aware on the points we're diverging, and we could try to find solutions on the hard points18:23
ayoung"why is policy in json and not in python"18:23
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ayoungbreton, I think the answer is that policy is really a cross cutting concern, and it was designed to be based on the role that comes in the token.  What has happend, though, is that the scope of policy has been slowliy increasing to cover things beyond role based access control18:25
ayoungbreton, sdague here is what I was thinking would match your concerns:18:25
ayoungeach API has a scope check.  That check says "make sure the scope of the token matches the scope of the API"  and that logic is done in python18:26
bknudsonwhat's the scope of an api18:26
ayoungbknudson, in the case of, say, a VM, it is the project that the VM is inside18:26
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ayoungbknudson, since the API actually has the Project ID in the URL, it is easy for Nova18:26
ayoungbknudson, for KEystone it is trickier, as the resources are referecned by ID18:27
ayoungand then we need to fetch the actual resource out of the backend prior to enforcing policy18:27
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ayoungwhat Nova needs to do is just confirm that the project ID in the URL matches the project_id on the resource18:27
bknudsondoes nova still have the project embedded in the URL?18:27
ayoungbknudson, it did on the APIs I saw18:28
ayoungbknudson, I am not assuming that to be the case everywhere18:28
bknudsonalthough with microversioning I guess they could get rid of it18:28
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morganfainbergsdague: did we get rid of the project id in the requests?18:28
morganfainbergsdague: for nova?18:28
sdagueit does, though the intent once upon a time was to deprecate it18:28
david8hunova has a admin_or_owner.  owner check is based on project_id18:28
morganfainbergayoung: but the scope (project id) is still in the auth_context18:28
sdagueit's still there, this seems kind of deep in the weeds though honestly18:28
ayoungbknudson, and, it really doesn 't matter;  it is up to the project to ensure that the scope of the request is correct, within the terms of the API18:28
morganfainbergso ...18:28
morganfainbergit doesn't matter18:28
ayoungso...lets say that we were to try and pull that out of the current policy18:29
ayoungthat should not be changed by end users18:29
sdaguebecause, part of the set of concerns that I'm bringing up are what you are going to get from a lot of projects18:29
morganfainbergcan we move beyond this point as we can determine scope from what is passed from middleware18:29
sdaguethe end game and what problems are trying to be solved aren't really clear anywhere18:29
ayoungsdague, what I am saying is, that part matches the concern you had.18:29
morganfainbergand move back on track - what sdague is bringing up specifically18:29
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ayoungThe part that we want dynamic is what role to give the user in order to execute the API18:29
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bknudsonwith the default policy it doesn't matter what role you have, you can boot an instance as long as you have any role on the project18:30
sdague* users should be able to discover their allowed permissions for a service in advance - that's at thing that wants to be solved18:30
ayoungsdague, OK,  let me address that;18:30
sdague* projects would like to be able to ensure sane defaults are enabled with new code18:30
ayoungthere are two views18:30
ayoungone is that you ask each endpoint "what policy..." and the other is that we centralize18:31
ayoungthe first is kindof what you suggested with ad /polcy URL18:31
ayounga   /policy URL18:31
sdaguesure, that was a way to address the discovery of policy by users or other services in a way that scales in the big tent18:31
sdaguebecause the list of all things that connect to keystone is an unbounded unknow18:32
morganfainbergsdague: ++18:32
ayoungsdague, well, no, not unbounded.  We have a list of registered endpoints18:32
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ayoungand each endpoint has a service18:32
bknudsonso I'd do http://localhost/compute/policy?18:32
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sdaguebknudson: that was my thinking18:32
samueldmqand get the policy for a service, it doesn't matter its version and exposed APIs18:33
sdagueif you are a user you get something that looks like a policy.json over the wire that was customized to your user. If you were admin you could get a more global definition.18:33
morganfainbergFYI: we're going to timebox this to 11:45 for this discussion18:33
ayoungsdague, so here is where that idea starts to conflict with dynamic policy18:33
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bknudsonwhat's an admin?18:33
morganfainbergso 12 more minutes (so we can hit the other topics) - we can come back after if needed18:34
sdagueall the semantics would need to be worked out for such an interface, as it would be a contract that any service would need to implement that wanted to participate in dynamic policy18:34
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ayoungright now, a role is not specific to a service or endpoint.  But each endpoint has their own way of interpreting it18:34
sdaguebknudson: tbd, there should be some kind of admin that can get this18:34
ayounglets give two possible approaches18:34
ayoung1.  COmpletely static policy18:35
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ayoung2.  dyanmic policy centralized in Keystone18:35
sdagueayoung: sure, I think moving services to service scoped roles is a good first step18:35
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bknudsonwe don't have static policy now. If you change the policy the server starts using it.18:35
ayoungif we go with 1, then to customize, the operator needs to write their own, distribute via puppet and make sure the policy is sane18:35
ayoungbknudson, what we have now is static18:36
sdagueI don't think you'll find much resistance in moving nova from using admin to compute_admin18:36
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morganfainbergsdague: if there is significant resistance to that i don't know what to say :P18:37
ayoungsdague, yeah, I think we all want to enable service scoped roles, and a few other ways of namespcaing them too18:37
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ayoungso..even if we do that, we need to deal wioth workflows like nova boot that hit multiple services...18:37
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ayoungand making sure that the roles are sane across those18:37
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henrynashare we confusing the teh fact that a) we want to make it easy to “distribute policy” by have differnet mechanism to  puppet (i.e. ceentralised in keysone, and all servcies get their policy from there), and b) the ability for a user to ask “what can I do on endpoint X”….to be me, these aren’t in conflvt18:37
bknudsonseems like the resistance would be just in getting it merged since I assume there's no nova spec for it18:37
sdagueayoung: and, moving to scoped admin (and possibly other) roles would be a lot easier to move in with sane deprecation if we had the base policy in code, and we could realize the user was still specifying admin when they should have meant compute adming in their policy.json18:38
ayoungnow...lets say an end user has customized tjheir policy in a statci deployment, and a new microversion comes out,,,then what18:38
ayoungI see two options18:38
ayoung1.  have a decent default18:38
ayoung2.  merge in the new stock policy with the modified policy18:38
bknudsonI hope real deployments aren't using the default policy.18:38
ayoungboth kinda suck, but in different ways18:38
ayoungbknudson, most are18:39
morganfainbergayoung: i think the sane default would be the one i'd pick here.18:39
ayoungmorganfainberg, so...I would too18:39
morganfainbergayoung: strictly because merging policy has a bigger surface area of "what can go wrong"18:39
brownebknudson: i think most real deployments use the default policy because it's too hard to customize18:39
morganfainbergnot because one is clearly better - the failures in merging are more likely18:39
sdagueright, which was another reason why base policy in code was something we wanted18:39
ayoungI would say "If I don't have a rule that covers thiss you need to be an admin (as Nova defines it) to execute this API"18:39
morganfainbergayoung: or whatever nova defines the base rule as.18:40
samueldmqsdague: and then updating the policy in keystone via /policy18:40
sdaguebknudson: it's not scary, it's bad on us all for providing terrible defaults18:40
ayoungmorganfainberg, we should probably allow namespaced defaults.  I  muigjht even have a spec for that already18:40
ayoungso compute::default  versus image::default18:40
morganfainbergayoung: sure - i think we can alredy do that fwiw18:40
ayoungbut..that preuspposed we have one policy file that covers both nova naglance..still up for debate.18:41
sdaguesamueldmq: so, honestly, I think a realistic set of L goals would be the namespacing and the /policy interface, and leave it at that18:41
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ayoungsdague, I don't like /poliucy18:41
sdaguewith those components, in M you could start building the dynamic bits on top18:41
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samueldmqsdague: and supporting microversions in oslo18:41
ayoungit means we are dependent on a change going in to every single project18:41
morganfainbergsdague: would that include policy-in-code work? or still straight static18:41
ayoungwe won;t get that for several releases18:41
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sdaguemorganfainberg: it should include policy-in-code18:41
morganfainbergjust defining scope18:41
sdaguebecause I don't see how to deprecate out admin sanely to users without it18:42
morganfainbergsdague: i could come up with a scheme, but i think pure code makes it easier18:42
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morganfainbergayoung: what is inherently wrong with /policy18:42
samueldmq2 minutes left .. any decisions on the scope ?18:42
sdagueayoung: so, I get this means that projects need to do a thing to be in the dynamic policy pool18:42
sdaguebut I think that's a good thing18:42
samueldmqfor sure we need to address microversions in oslo.policy18:42
ayoungsdague, no18:42
morganfainbergayoung: especially if that lets you ask the question of "what does nova let me do"?18:42
morganfainbergsamueldmq: thanks for watching the clock18:42
ayoungsdague, fetching dynamic policy is going to be part of keystone middleware18:43
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ayoungor it is oslo.policy18:43
ayoungmorganfainberg, what if there are 15 nova endpoints?  Horizon is going to go and query each one?18:43
samueldmqwhat do we do when we upgrade a service ?18:43
bknudsonwhat's a sane default for a new api? it could be "admin-only", but that doesn't seem right.18:43
sdaguebknudson: it's going to be decided by the project18:43
samueldmqif keystone owns unified, does keystone need to update unified for every api change in any other servce ?18:44
morganfainbergayoung: you have the same issue with centralizing it... what version does nova run.. what is that endpoint's policy18:44
sdaguethat domain knowledge is back in the project18:44
morganfainbergayoung: it's the same question just spun differently18:44
ayoungsdague, I think, instead of /policy, it would make more sense to let the projects push their updated policy to Keystone itslef18:44
morganfainbergayoung: does it hurt us to have /policy today and push to keystone tomorrow?18:44
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morganfainbergayoung: i could see benefit to /policy in *any* case18:44
sdagueayoung: if it's a REST api that keystone can call, I don't understand why that's no ok18:44
ayoungmorganfainberg, Horizon doesn't know about the endpoints until they get the token...It is in the service catalog18:44
bknudsonsdague: are you going to need some more default roles?18:44
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ayoungsdague it further fragments policy, instead of getting us a common view of it.  It reinforces 968696, not fixes it18:45
samueldmqtime's over ... decisions ?18:45
sdaguebecause I imagine the end game is keystone goes and collects and merges those and makes that information available to users from a single point18:45
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morganfainbergsamueldmq: let this last topic close, thanks18:45
ayoungsdague, hear me out...here is what I propose instead18:45
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ayoungwe split policy.  The ojnly part that is dynamic is the RBAC part18:45
morganfainbergayoung, sdague: 1 minute18:45
bknudsondo you still have a weekly meeting for this?18:45
samueldmqmorganfainberg: sure, putting more time on it is your decision, thanks18:46
ayoungRBAC will provide a namespaced default18:46
ayoungNova fetches its modified policy for the roles (olnly) from Keystone via oslo/meystonemiddleare18:46
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ayoungif we want hierarchical roles, we can do thiose in policy generation18:46
samueldmqbknudson: no, I think we could have, but ML can be enough for now ?18:46
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morganfainbergayoung: the fetch part seems like it could come as a followup18:46
ayoungif we do the /policy thing..itis hugely static, we ;ve just made it back to a Puppet function, with no way to tie the roles teogther etc within the system of record18:47
sdagueayoung: I don't understand why you think that, it's not static, it's federated18:47
morganfainbergsdague: ++18:47
samueldmq /policy is just an alternative from uploading the policy.json which is shipped with the code18:47
samueldmqthat's how I see it :)18:48
morganfainbergok so here is my proposal: /policy now18:48
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morganfainbergthe fetching from keystone follows18:48
morganfainbergwe can enhance keystone to be smarter being able to answer the questions as we go18:48
morganfainbergdirectly, so horizon et al don't need to ask the endpoints18:48
morganfainbergin steps, /policy still does the same thing18:48
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morganfainbergbut when it fetches from keystone (future) it now is dynamic18:48
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ayoungit does not address any of the issues other than "how do we query"18:49
morganfainbergand you can query both sides "what does keystone think" and what "nova thinks"18:49
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ayoungso we toss hierarchical roles?18:49
morganfainbergok anyway18:49
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ayoungand we make bug 968696 a won;'t fix  Or reassign top Nova?18:50
openstackbug 968696 in Keystone ""admin"-ness not properly scoped" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/968696 - Assigned to Adam Young (ayoung)18:50
morganfainbergwe can enhance /policy to do hierarchical roles18:50
morganfainbergthe thing is it is not strictly static18:50
morganfainbergit's building on work18:50
samueldmqayoung: nova still needs to get the modified policy back using middleware18:50
morganfainbergit can't be an all encompassing solution day 118:50
samueldmqayoung: /policy just provides the stock policy18:50
morganfainbergit will never get done18:50
samueldmqayoung: that's all18:50
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sdagueright, /policy is "seed of truth"18:50
morganfainbergsdague: ++18:50
sdaguedynamic would layer on top of it18:50
samueldmqyes, taht's the only difference18:51
ayoungis /policy stock only...taht is...you guys are not thinking this through18:51
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ayoungeither it is stock only, in which case it gets out of date18:51
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ayoungor it is dynamic, in which case it is redundant18:51
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morganfainbergthis sounds like perfect being the enemy of better-than-the-crap-we-have-today18:51
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ayoungmorganfainberg, no.18:51
ayoungmorganfainberg, we don;t need to publish /plocy18:52
ayoungthat gets shipped with the code18:52
bknudsonif we're going to fundamentally redesign policy then let's not even try to fit it in with what we've got now18:52
samueldmqsdague: /policy only provides the initial source of truth, right ?18:52
ayoung that can be uploaded to Keystone at any point18:52
morganfainbergayoung: i think this is how we bridge to what you want18:52
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sdaguesamueldmq: that was my original thinking18:52
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samueldmqayoung: so yes, /policy is just the stock policy18:52
morganfainbergok we're losing sdague and we need to continue on18:52
sdagueit would be the composite of policy in code + policy in json files from the services18:52
david8hubknudson, +118:52
morganfainbergwe'll need to table this for further discussion18:52
ayoungsdague, is /policy stock?  So idf I then fetch dfynamic policy from Keystone it is ouyt of sync?18:52
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morganfainbergsorry moving on.18:53
ayoungOk, if this is what you guys agree oon, I iwll abandon my specs18:53
morganfainberg#topic Make bandit jobs voting?18:53
*** openstack changes topic to "Make bandit jobs voting? (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:53
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x95d6350>18:54
morganfainberg#action Further discussion on policy needed.18:54
morganfainberg#info Dynamic policy or /policy, or something in the middle?18:54
samueldmq /policy provides the source of truth to keystone, customizations occur in keystone, keystone provides customized policy back to services thorugh middleware18:54
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morganfainberg#topic Make bandit jobs voting?18:54
*** openstack changes topic to "Make bandit jobs voting? (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:54
morganfainbergbknudson o/18:54
bknudsonhopefully this is quick...18:54
bknudsonthe bandit jobs have been running for several weeks18:54
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bknudsonand was wondering if they could be made voting?18:55
morganfainbergi'm ok with them becoming voting18:55
morganfainbergunless someone has issue with it18:55
bknudsonif so I'll propose the changes to -infra18:55
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bknudsonneed to sync the keystoneclient auth feature branch first.18:55
morganfainbergany issues with bandit? concerns?18:55
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morganfainbergbknudson: ok i think go ahead18:56
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bknudsongreat, thanks18:56
morganfainbergbknudson: ping me and i'll +1 the change so -infra will push it through18:56
morganfainbergskipping KSA and other repo stuff (since we're still missing jamie)18:56
morganfainberg#topic Service providers by domain18:56
*** openstack changes topic to "Service providers by domain (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:56
morganfainbergrodrigods: o/18:56
rodrigodsthis *can* be quick :)18:56
rodrigodsspec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/188534/18:56
rodrigodsso, with reseller we will enforce domains as an administrative boundary - our proposal is to add the possibility to create service providers in the domain scope (basically, add the domain_id to service_provider table and filter the service_provider list in tokens based on its scope). Service providers with domain_id = null are available for all users in the cloud (as it is today)18:56
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rodrigodsIt will only change the API to create service_providers by including a new field in the request body and change its rule in the policy.json file18:57
marekdso you can burst to cloud X only if you are a member of domain D ?18:57
rodrigodsmarekd, yes18:57
morganfainbergmarekd: i think we initially wanted to solve that with endpoint filtering18:57
marekdendpoint filtering cannot do that?18:57
morganfainbergi'd rather not lock us into only 1 domain can do it18:57
morganfainbergbut only domians that see the SPs can18:57
morganfainbergrodrigods: so i think lets put this into the filtering18:58
marekdmorganfainberg: exactly, does endpoint filtering in todays scoped are enough to give what rodrigo wants?18:58
morganfainbergif the SP isn't in the catalog, we don't issue saml for it18:58
morganfainbergrodrigods: but otherwise *yes* this is a good direction and way to go18:58
morganfainbergmarekd: will need an added check to not issue saml for an endpoint not in the SP list18:59
rodrigodsmorganfainberg, yeah... today service providers are not "inside" the catalog18:59
morganfainbergrodrigods: they are part of the catalog - lets enhance filtering to cover them too18:59
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morganfainbergrodrigods: but your idea is sound18:59
rodrigodsmorganfainberg, makes sense18:59
morganfainbergrodrigods: cool18:59
marekdwe were planning on that either way.18:59
rodrigodsmorganfainberg, should this fit in L?18:59
morganfainberg#action rodrigods to enhance filtering to cover Service Providers18:59
morganfainbergrodrigods: please try to19:00
morganfainbergit's worth it19:00
morganfainberglast topic19:00
rodrigodsmorganfainberg, marekd, great! thanks for the feedback19:00
morganfainbergand we're out of time19:00
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morganfainberghenrynash: your is_domain question - part of reseller19:00
morganfainberghenrynash and domain scoped tokens19:00
henrynashI have posted an updated spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/193543/19:00
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morganfainberghenrynash: and yes it should be included in the L cycle19:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 23 19:00:54 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-23-18.02.html19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-23-18.02.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-06-23-18.02.log.html19:01
* morganfainberg lets -infra take over before they yell and jump up and down19:01
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henrynashfades to black….19:01
bknudsoninfra can do bad things to us.19:01
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jeblair#startmeeting infra19:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 23 19:02:22 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:02
jeblair#link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:02
jeblair#link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-16-19.02.html19:02
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jeblair#topic Announcements19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
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jeblairi have some announcements regarding core group changes19:03
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jeblair#info adding greghaynes to glean-core19:03
jeblairgreghaynes is basically the co-author of glean; i think we're all kind of hoping it doesn't actually get any more patches19:03
jeblairbut in case someone want to add a new test, it will be nice for greg to be able to say "yes"19:03
jeblairor "no" if someone wants to add a new feature19:03
mordredjust practicing19:03
fungior if the stars align and we get to delete some code from it19:03
jeblairmordred: thank you for demonstrating19:03
jeblairfungi: a world of possibilities i didn't even consider!19:04
jeblair#info adding nibalizer, yolanda to infra-puppet core19:04
jeblairjust as soon as i update my script to set up that group correctly19:04
jeblairthey have been doing great work on these puppet modules and i've been heavily weighing their input for a while19:04
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jeblairtry not to break everything, at least until we get the func testing in place... then i guess it's okay ;)19:05
nibalizerawesome, thanks19:05
jeblair#topic Specs approval19:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:05
fungiyep, i can't wait do fewer reviews of those repos ;)19:05
jeblairfirst some specs that we should work on reviewing this week to get them ready for final approval19:05
jeblair#link ci watch spec: https://review.openstack.org/19225319:05
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jeblairsdague has asked that we try to get agreement on this quickly; he is out next week, so if we can review/iterate on this this week, and get it on the schedule for next week, that would be good19:05
greghaynesoo yay im getting core19:05
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fungigreghaynes: don't spend it all in one place19:06
sdaguejeblair: also, a question in there about technology choices, because I think a couple of folks would start hacking on prototypes if we knew where preferences were19:07
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* tchaypo waves19:07
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jeblaircool; i have not had a chance to look at it yet, but hope to today19:07
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jeblairthere are a number of other specs in the queue that are probably getting close19:08
jeblair#link stackalytics spec: https://review.openstack.org/18771519:08
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fungii think re refstack crowd were also at the point where they're looking for final feedback19:08
jeblairthat one seems to be getting into shape; i'm a little concerned that we're not hearing as much from mirantis as i hoped19:08
fungier, the19:08
jeblairmaybe SergeyLukjanov is busy?19:09
fungiahh, yeah SergeyLukjanov was going to check back in with mirantis marketing19:09
hogepodgeyup, we'd like to move forward on the spec as soon as we can19:09
jeblairhogepodge: stackalytics or refstack?19:10
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* fungi hopes the answer is "both!"19:10
hogepodgeok, refstack, I jumped ahead.19:10
jeblairok, it's up next19:10
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jeblairanyway, we can proceed with _hosting_ stackalytics at stackalytics.o.o if we want; i'd prefer to have mirantis folks on-board though19:11
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jeblairshould we try to ping SergeyLukjanov this week, and if he's too busy, find another contact?19:12
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fungithat seems reasonable19:12
greghaynesYea - they seemed like they had some requests for its usage there so they definitely need to be on board19:12
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fungiperhaps one or more of the current stackalytics core reviewers would be good contacts on this19:13
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jeblairpabelanger: let's try to track them down19:13
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jeblairanything else before we move on to approvals?19:14
pabelangerjeblair, sounds good19:14
jeblair#topic Specs approval: RefStack Site Hosting (hogepodge, davidlenwell)19:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: RefStack Site Hosting (hogepodge, davidlenwell) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:14
jeblair#link refstack site hosting spec https://review.openstack.org/18820719:14
jeblairthis seems to be ready for a vote yeah?19:15
gothicmindfoodis there/win 2219:15
pleia2I had a browse yesterday afternoon, looking good19:15
jeblairsome late minor revisions yesterday, but i don't think it's changed greatly in a while19:15
* gothicmindfood "whoopses"19:15
hogepodgewe had discussed whether to split api and ui across two domains19:15
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fungii think that can still happen later if it turns out to be needed19:16
hogepodgeyesterday the team voted to use only one, in part to ease transition to refstack.openstack.org if that was in the cards for the future19:16
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fungico-hosting them on one server is probably simplest to start, and renders the question of how we'll tackle two https vhosts on one server moot19:16
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jeblairyeah, i think we can accomplish two if needed, but it should be done with some thought19:17
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jeblairso if we don't need it, sounds good to me19:17
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jeblairany concerns or comments, or should we open it for voting?19:17
davidlenwellwe're flexible.. wanted to make it easier for you guys19:18
fungier, ch-hosting them in one vhost/at one dns name19:18
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fungii have no objections19:18
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jeblair#info refstack site hosting spec voting open until 2015-06-25 19:00 UTC19:19
jeblair#topic Schedule Project Renames19:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Schedule Project Renames (Meeting topic: infra)"19:19
jeblairwe have one; i think we should wait for more :)19:19
fungiso soon? seems like we _just_ did this... ;)19:19
Shrewsfungi: you love it19:19
fungimorganfainberg: didn't keystone have one coming up for rename too?19:20
fungimaybe we can batch them once that's confirmed19:20
* mordred hands fungi a wetter-than-normal +2 aardvark of renaming19:20
jeblair#agreed wait for more renames and batch19:20
jeblair#topic Priority Efforts (Migration to Zanata)19:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Migration to Zanata) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:21
* fungi wonders what the critical hit roll is for that aardvark19:21
pleia2so I'm stopped at how we handle infra-controlled service accounts in openstackid19:21
pleia2I'll stash auth data in hiera, but we need an account associated with these kinds of things for openstackid itself19:21
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fungipleia2: after i saw the details, that this is just for authenticating a bot to push stuff into zanata, i think the easy way out (an account for hostmaster@o.o or something) is likely fine19:22
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mrmartinfungi: we have a special role field for the account, we can set to a custom value too19:22
fungimrmartin: oh, that's even better19:23
pleia2in order to get an id, we need to do https://www.openstack.org/join/register19:23
pleia2but it's a bot19:23
jeblairfungi, pleia2: the infra-root@openstack account has a number of aliases, we can add 'translate@' if we want19:23
mrmartinwe have the 'Group' table for that, and a 'Group_Members' table to assign groups to accounts19:23
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pleia2jeblair: wfm19:24
jeblairmrmartin: so should we start by registering through the web like a normal user, or should we create it entirely behind-the-scenes?19:24
mrmartinjeblair: exactly19:24
fungijeblair: that seems safer, agreed. reusing the same one for multiple services leads to trust boundary issues19:24
pleia2mrmartin: er, which?19:24
jeblairmrmartin: er, which one?19:24
mrmartinand add the Group manually both for openstackid-dev and openstack.o.o19:24
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mrmartinand I guess on the admin interface - I saw it once - you can assign the custom role to the manually registered profile19:25
pleia2ok, so register like a normal user, and then make some behind the scenes tweaks19:25
jeblair#action jeblair set up translate@o.o infra-root alias19:25
pleia2ok, so let's set up a translate@ alias and then I'll sign up with that19:25
fungioh, admin interface. i don't think i've got access to the admin interface19:25
mrmartinand if we set properly the group assignment, we can filter out who is a human or who is a bot19:25
fungididn't realize it had one ;)19:25
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jeblair#action pleia2 sign up translate@ openstackid account19:26
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mrmartinfungi: I guess the admin was integrated into openstack.org originally19:26
pleia2aside from that, I fixed a restart bug in our puppet module and StevenK's zanata scripts have landed (just need account to hook into), so we're on track to deliver testing version to the translators in the beginning of july (probably after the 4th)19:26
fungimrmartin: makes sense19:26
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jeblair#action fungi mrmartin pleia2 investigate "admin interface" for openstack id, get service account group assigned somehow19:27
jeblairpleia2: let's celebrate with fireworks!19:27
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fungiit's that time of year where tourists on vacation are setting off fireworks every night here. starting to get on my nerves19:28
fungilet's celebrate with beer ;_19:28
mtreinishfungi: you should retaliate with your own explosives19:28
mrmartinwe don't have fireworks here, so we can exchange for a week19:28
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jeblairnice :)19:29
jeblair#topic Hosting for Manila service image (u_glide, bswartz)19:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Hosting for Manila service image (u_glide, bswartz) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:29
jeblairoh wait19:29
jeblairthis was left over from last time wasn't it19:29
fungithos was from last week19:29
jeblair#topic Open discussion19:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:29
fungii think they havea  way forward now19:29
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mrmartinfungi: do you have some info about this resource-server split-out from openstackid?19:29
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fungimrmartin: there's an open review smarcet proposed19:31
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/178853/19:31
mrmartinI guess we need to set up a separate instance to serve this new endpoint, maybe with all the things, including SSL, etc.19:31
mordredjeblair: greghaynes and SpamapS and I have a phone call on thursday with HP humans about the networking for infra-cloud19:31
fungiright, that would be next19:31
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greghaynesmordred: horray19:31
mrmartindo we need a spec for that?19:31
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fungimrmartin: probably not unless it needs a whole separate puppet module, but i'll defer to jeblair on that19:32
SpamapSjeblair: we had talked about discussing hand-off of things like the infra-cloud servers from non-root to infra-root..19:32
fungimrmartin: the way i see it, there's code which is running on openstackid.org which we'd rather not run there, so it's moving to a second server using the same basic framework19:32
fungimrmartin: and it already has a git repo, and the existing puppet module can probably just grow a class for the resource server19:33
mrmartinfungi: yeap, I did a test on the openstackid code with the removed resource server things, and it was working19:33
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pabelangerI think grafana.o.o is almost ready to be stood up. Could use some guidance on the current state of the puppet module. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/179208/19:33
pabelangercurrently the only manual task right now is to create an api_key in admin GUI19:33
fungimrmartin: awesome. i missed that one19:33
pabelangerfor grafyaml19:33
pabelangercan't figure out hashing of key in database ATM :(19:34
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pabelangerso, manually injection won't work right now19:34
jeblairfungi, mrmartin: agreed19:34
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jeblairSpamapS: yeah, let's talk about the infra-cloud thing for a minute19:34
jeblairSpamapS: what needs to be handed off?19:35
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greghaynesjeblair: I think the question is are we going to have the infra rooters do a full redeploy before it goes 'live'19:35
SpamapSjeblair: what he said19:36
jeblairredeploy of the initial host?19:36
jeblair(or hosts?)19:37
SpamapSjeblair: if its fine to just hand it to infra-root with a local hiera with 'nopassword' in all the secret slots, I'm fine w/ that too. Just not sure how pedantic we want to be about privileges given that these aren't vms you can burn easily.19:37
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fungihow smooth (and fast) is a full redeploy at this point?19:38
SpamapSnot enough data19:38
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jeblairi still don't know what we're talking about here, sorry.19:39
pleia2can we stash ongoing documentation for the work you're doing somewhere (even if it's an etherpad?)19:39
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SpamapSI can probably re-deploy the initial hardware-cloud node with a bare OS in 30 minutes. No idea how long it will take to morph it into a working cloud though.19:39
pleia2it's not clear to me what specific moving parts are involved ehre19:39
jeblairlet's just see if we can manage to get on the same page talking to each other in irc first :)19:39
greghaynesjeblair: the concern is if we stand up infra-cloud, then just swap keys to the infra-rooter key, theres no guarantee of whether or not we have access or what code we put on those boxes19:39
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jeblairgreghaynes: right, i'm just not sure exactly what things we're talking about19:40
jeblairwe have no puppet manifests or anything written yet19:40
jeblairare we talking about what's needed to stand up the initial server, or the cloud itself, or what?19:40
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fungiso as a starting point... there's a (maybe multiple?) bastion host accessible from the internet via ssh19:40
fungisounded like two?19:40
jeblairi think we were talking about 2 yes19:40
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SpamapSjeblair: I'm talking about once we write those puppet manifests, and beat the cloud into submission, do you want to re-deploy the whole thing from scratch with only infra-root's credentials?19:41
jeblairthough actually https://review.openstack.org/180796 says one19:41
SpamapSfungi: we have one, the plan in the WIP docs is to have two bastion.19:41
SpamapSoh doh19:42
SpamapSwell we'll fix that. :)19:42
jeblairSpamapS: ah yes, absolutely.  we want to be able to regularly redeploy the cloud19:42
jeblairso i imagine that will involve any of the credentials for that being in our normal secret hiera file19:42
jeblairand we run a script to do the deploy19:42
fungiokay, so that bastion exists today and has an operating system on it now and is able to reach a management network for all the rest of the hardware?19:42
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jeblairso i guess for hand-off, we can just change all those credentials19:43
greghaynesfungi: yes19:43
SpamapSOk, so that means that what we really want is to have the baremetal cloud deploy a copy of itself, and then those two would be the bastions (with only one having all nodes enrolled and used to deploy the whole new cloud).19:43
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fungiokay, so a pair of all-in-one control plane "clouds" which manipulate the remaining hardware as ironic instances19:44
jeblairhow does a baremetal cloud deploy a copy of itself?19:44
mordredI think "copy of itself" is a misnomer19:44
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mordredI think there are 2 bare metal machines that are networked to the management network19:44
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SpamapSjeblair: it deploys a bare box, and then we deploy a copy of it using our tools. :)19:45
mordredeach of them can deploy operating systems to bare metal machines19:45
mordredand on those operating systems, we can run puppet19:45
mordredso, each of them can deploy an operating system to the other as well19:45
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jeblairmordred: ah, i see.19:46
mordredwhich means if we need to blow away and re-do either of them, we can use the other to accomplish the task19:46
fungiand one of the systems which we could deploy to a bare metal instance is... another all-in-one control plane19:46
fungiokay, this is starting to make some sense to my poor noodle19:46
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jeblairSpamapS: can you update https://review.openstack.org/180796 to describe this?19:46
jeblairwe should really try to land that soon too19:47
mordredright now, SpamapS and greghaynes have logins and root on those machines19:47
SpamapSyeah I've been letting it languish as I get my hands dirty in a few of the early tasks. :-P19:47
SpamapSand lo, there must be changes. :)19:47
jeblairyeah, it doesn't need to land perfect19:47
mordredonce we're happy with the puppet for those machines, I believe we'll want to have infra root redeploy those machines using puppet _without_ SpamapS and greghaynes keys on them19:48
jeblairlet's try to land our plan, and then make changes to it; it's easier to patch that way :)19:48
SpamapSmordred: agreed19:48
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jeblairmordred: yup19:48
mordredand at that point, the next steps will largely be about using the cloud APIs of those clouds to operate the next level - which can have a similar process to go through19:48
mordredbut root should no longer be needed on the all-in-ones19:49
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mordredalso - to be clear - we'll ultimately have 4 of these19:49
mordred2 per data center19:49
fungithough also, convincing greghaynes and SpamapS that they _want_ us to put their keys back on there so that they can help us manage those should stay on the table as an option ;)19:49
mordredfungi: :)19:49
SpamapSok, all that will go into next patchset of the docs proposal19:49
greghaynesno take backs19:49
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mordredSpamapS: crinkle had a great point in her review I really liked19:50
mordredSpamapS: which is that each of those bullet points should have a why19:50
fungiand yes, i agree a full redeploy of everything, if for no reason other than to validate the puppet and documentation, is a necessary step19:51
mordredSpamapS: which is likely SUPER useful so that we can remember why we decided that :)19:51
pleia2mordred: ++19:51
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jeblairend of infra-cloud topic?19:51
greghaynesYep, I think that is good enough for near-term19:52
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jeblairpabelanger: back to your question about grafana: can the api key just be a random string?  if so, we can just use openssl to generate it and put it in hiera.19:52
SpamapScrinkle: excellent point.19:52
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jeblairpabelanger: we have similarly 'pre-generated password' items for gerrit, etc.19:52
pabelangerjeblair, issue is grafana does a custom hash / salt of the key.  No way to do it externally ATM19:53
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fungihopefully i'll have a first stab at using bindep to pre-cache distro packages uploaded for review19:53
fungisometime later today19:53
fungiif stuff will stop breaking'19:53
jeblairpabelanger: hrm.  it would be great if we didn't need a manual two-step installation process for grafana19:54
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jeblairtimrc: ^ maybe you could work with pabelanger on this?19:54
pabelangerjeblair, agreed.  If people can help decode the hash / salt method, we could inject into database for now19:54
fungipabelanger: is there a tool we can use to generate that password?19:54
pabelangeralso created: https://github.com/grafana/grafana/issues/2218 just now19:54
pabelangerfungi, not that I know of.  However, we could request upstream for it19:55
fungipabelanger: is there an example?19:55
timrcjeblair, Hm yeah.  I think we just generated a random string and put it in heira, pabelanger19:55
jeblairyeah, that could be a solution, if grafana could supply a tool do perform the hashing19:55
pabelangertimrc, how do you get it into DB?19:55
timrcpabelanger, I think we specified it as a config option.  Let me go see.19:56
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pabelangertimrc, possible I over looked something19:57
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timrcpabelanger, jeblair http://paste.openstack.org/show/317511/19:58
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jeblairdo we have a puppet-grafana repo yet?19:59
timrcpabelanger, jeblair Yeah we just created a random hash, threw it in hiera, and passed it down as a param which eventually found its way into the security block of the configuration class.19:59
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ianwis this open discussion?  anyway, like to work through people's thoughts on -> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194477/ ; spec to get images closer to the dib ci test so we don't download them over internet19:59
pabelangertimrc, okay, so you are using the secret_key19:59
pabelangerlet me test that out19:59
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pabelangerjeblair, no, we are consuming an upstream puppet-grafana module directly20:00
jeblairah great20:00
jeblairianw: ack20:00
jeblairthanks everyone!20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
timrcpabelanger, Cool.  Seems to work.20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 23 20:00:45 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-23-19.02.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-23-19.02.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-06-23-19.02.log.html20:00
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edleafestill running, jay?20:01
jaypipesedleafe: of course :)20:01
ttxjgriffith, annegentle, lifeless, mordred, jeblair, sdague, dhellmann: around ?20:01
jeblairttx: yep20:01
lifelessttx: in spirit20:01
ttx#startmeeting tc20:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 23 20:02:11 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:02
ttxMeeting agenda for today:20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:02
ttxLots of ground to cover, hopefully we won't spend too much time on straightforward things20:02
ttx#topic Add compute starter kit tag20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Add compute starter kit tag (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/18011220:02
ttxLast week we had limited attendance to the TC meeting so we said we would wait for this week before pushing this in20:02
ttxI think the remaining objections can be proposed as subsequent patches at this point20:03
dhellmannI still have strong reservations about this one. Can someone reassure me that we're not going to use this tag to allow cross-project teams to refuse to help projects that don't have it?20:03
ttxstill short of one vote20:03
ttxdhellmann: I don't think cross-project teams need the tag to do that20:03
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flaper87dhellmann: I certainly hope that won't happen20:04
dhellmannttx: I'm differentiating "help" from "do the work for them"20:04
lifelessdhellmann: our job is to encourage cross-project tings20:04
flaper87because that's not how I'm seeing this20:04
markmcclainsimilarly not certain that a few of the recommendations are things should be suggesting currently20:04
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lifelessI'd really love a more product centric view on things; I think this is a balanced, neutral stab at that, driven by requests from our newest users.20:04
ttxdhellmann: if a cross-project team refuses to help a given project, then that's a different problem. My point is the tag doen't help or prevent that20:05
dhellmannttx: for example, annegentle expressed interest in having this for the doc team, and I would not want them to then say "we're only going to support projects in the starter kit" or "we're only going to include starter kit apps in the install guide" (not saying they would, just an example)20:05
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dhellmannttx: it might encourage it20:05
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lifelessdhellmann: so, you're asking for a guarantee that noone here will support the idea of projects not helping other projects based on starter kit membership ?20:05
russellbi do see it as useful input to docs, if for example they did want to write the simplest starter install guide they could20:05
ttxdhellmann: I could see the starter kit prioritizing effort, but not excluding it20:05
russellbor whatever guide20:05
dhellmannlifeless: yes20:05
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flaper87I'd love to see other kits to be proposed as well. I may do that if I find the time in the next couple of weeks20:05
jaypipesrussellb: ++20:06
russellbttx: good summary20:06
flaper87I think that'd help20:06
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lifelessI'd love to see -more- cross stuff, not less. So you have my guarantee.20:06
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ttxdhellmann: if it's used for evil, you can come back and suggest we get rid of it :)20:06
annegentledhellmann: oh that's not the point20:06
annegentledhellmann: more "starter docs definition help"20:06
annegentledhellmann: and yeah, we don't only include certain tags, it's just that tags are doc anyway20:06
dhellmannttx: you can't put the genie back into the bottle, though, right?20:06
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sdaguewell, as someone that spent a ton of the last six months building external plugin mechanisms for devstack and grenade for the big tent, I kind of feel my actions speak pretty strongly for supporting a wide range of the ecosystem20:07
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dhellmannannegentle: right, I wasn't saying docs would, just using it as a concrete example of what I wouldn't want to see20:07
russellbi think we could easily remove this tag20:07
russellbright now anyway20:07
markmcclain1apologies my bouncer lost connectivity20:07
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annegentledhellmann: sure, it's a decent example20:07
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ttxdhellmann: I'm not sure what you mean, we can certaiunly remove the tag as well as we can create it20:07
dhellmannbecause if we're ever going to have another tag that requires *this* tag, or we're going to have teams saying "we only work on the  starter kit" then I think we should not be documenting this in the governance repository where it implies that is ok20:08
ttxand if a team says I'll only support A B and Cn then the fact that a tag at a given moment covered A B and C doesn't really help or prevent20:08
mordredI'm +1 on this - I _DO_ worry that we're pointing new users at deploying a thing we want to deprecate20:08
mordredthat said - I get the purpose, and I think it's well described20:08
mordredand I support its existence20:08
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russellbmordred: which, nova-net?20:08
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sdagueyeh, the nova-net / neutron bit doesn't honestly have a great answer today20:09
markmcclain1mordred: I share the same concern20:09
sdagueso I went for simplicity20:09
mordredI would like to reduce the number of new nova-net deployments20:09
russellbi'd like it just the same swapping nova-net for neutron20:09
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mordredand if the "start with this" says "deploy nova-net" that's bad for us overall20:09
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russellbyeah, we don't really need to make the migration problem worse20:09
flaper87dhellmann: does having a "deploy starter kit" in devstack worry you? Because I see that like something that could easily happen20:09
edleafethat would be the starter kit *today*. It can change as the neutron story improves20:09
markmcclain1we're also pointing them to multi-host which has the fuzziest migration path of all20:09
ttxmordred: we could quickly iterate on it though20:09
russellbi think it's better to assume you start with neutron, and fall back to nova-net only if needed20:09
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mordredyah. we don't need to spin on this - we can adjust and move forward - I just wanted to vocalize that20:09
sdagueedleafe: right, my hope is it flips next cycle because we feel confident we have a simple enough story there20:10
lifelessdhellmann: so actually, I want to pick up on something here20:10
russellbbut yeah, follow-up patch is fine to debate that point ...20:10
lifelessdhellmann: I think it would be entirely reasonable for a group to form around making the onramp super easy.20:10
lifelessdhellmann: I'd support that.20:10
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lifelessdhellmann: I wouldn't support e.g. nova saying 'starter kit only thanks'20:10
edleafeflaper87: seems like if you're using devstack, you're past the need for a starter kit20:10
flaper87edleafe: but that doesn't mean you couldn't have it20:10
dhellmannlifeless: right, someone working from this to make things easier is fine. Someone using this to exclude other projects is not fine.20:10
flaper87we're discussing the meaning and implications of having the starter kit20:11
edleafeflaper87: yeah, but still, one does not imply the other20:11
dhellmannlifeless: we have had a history of "in" projects vetoing ideas and requests from other projects, and I think we should not be encouraging more of that.20:11
flaper87so, I kinda feel it's relevant to dhellmann's point20:11
lifelessdhellmann: ah20:11
flaper87I don't mind having it in devstack (if that ever happens)20:11
dhellmannlifeless: nova/ceilometer, for example. Or, frankly, nova/neutron.20:11
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ttxdhellmann: I guess we'll have to stay vigilant20:11
lifelessdhellmann: so, if there's a history, how about we actively oppose that where it shows up, unless you think this is structurally supportive of that...20:11
lifelessdhellmann: (I don't)20:11
flaper87I just want to know other folk's thoughts20:11
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dtroyerI'm in support of this doc, but it is no longer the thing for which I had hoped we would get that describes technical relationships between the projects.20:12
dhellmannlifeless: I am a bit worried that it is, but I am glad that most everyone seems to be saying that's not the goal and would not be supported.20:12
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annegentledhellmann: hm20:12
lifelessdhellmann: one of the things that makes me say it isn't is that its less than a fully useful cloudin every dimension20:12
flaper87I believe the moment we see this is going the wrong direction, we should just sit and take a step back20:13
flaper87or take a step back and then sit20:13
flaper87that makes more sense :P20:13
dhellmannlifeless: i am much less worried about the technical details than the message we send by identifying a group of projects like this *in governance* vs. a product guide or documentation somewhere else20:13
dhellmannlifeless: it's the location, not the content, that bothers me20:13
ttxmarkmcclain: the bit you oppose to is the proposed application of the tag. we could fix that or rediscuss it) when a patch comes to apply that tag20:13
dhellmannlifeless: that said, the nova-net/neutron thing caught my eye, too, though I do understand sdague's goal20:14
sdagueand, honestly, the way we keep teams collaborating is by getting in and helping them collaborate. I feel like we made a bunch of progress in the last week on nova / ceilometer interaction for instance20:14
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sdagueand that was about people just deciding to talk and make things better20:14
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markmcclainttx: yeah the specific recommendations are a stumbling block20:14
dhellmannsdague: I won't go over the whole history there, but we tried for a long time to get the nova team to talk about that stuff and were rebuffed. So I think *finally* is the operative word.20:15
lifelesssdague: yes, its all conways law :)20:15
dhellmannand that is a perfect example of what I want to avoid -- nova rebuffed ceilometer because that team was not an integrated project, will we see the same thing for non-starterkit projects now?20:15
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russellbwe can drop the whole thing because of that risk, or wait to see if that happens and call it out if we see it20:16
ttxdhellmann: slightly different though. Ceilometer was not an openstack project ?20:16
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flaper87I really think that we should keep our eyes super open to this  cases and just rollback20:16
dhellmannttx: at some point when we still wanted better nova integration, it was20:16
russellbif it would help, another paragraph could be added to the tag definition around that point20:16
ttxdhellmann: then it was integrated ?20:17
dhellmannhaving been on the receiving end of "go away, you aren't one of the cool projects" a couple of times, I might be overly sensitive to this particular issue20:17
ttxor was it during incubation ?20:17
adrian_ottodhellmann: +120:17
ttxAnyway, I think all the tags designate a subset of projects, and people can piggyback on them for evil20:18
dhellmannttx: the problem they're solving now has been there since we started collecting more hypervisor metrics than nova had. I don't know when that started off the top of my head, but I would guess more than 1 year easily20:18
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ttxsome random person could decide that they don't support projects without team:diverse-affiliation20:18
ttxI don't see how that tag is different or more significant20:18
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dhellmannttx: this particular tag smells a lot like the integrated release or core, so I think it's different from "release:managed" or whatever20:18
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markmcclaindhellmann: ++20:19
dhellmannttx: the members of this group are unlikely to grow20:19
ttxI don't know what can be done to make it smell less than calling it starterkit20:19
dhellmannand so no project not in it at the beginning is likely to ever get support from someone that says "you must be in the starter kit"20:19
edleafettx +120:19
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ttxJust trying to see what's the next step here. You raise fear and doubt, it's hard to be constructive from that20:20
edleafeit's clearly a small subset, not a cool club to join20:20
dhellmannttx: we should probably move on. I feel like I'm saying the same things I've been saying since this came up, and I feel like the only one hesitating.20:20
lifelessdhellmann: markmcclain seems also concerned20:21
dtroyerthis set of projects will grow to exactly one more in the forseeable future.  that is based on technical requirements, not popularity20:21
ttxdhellmann: no, I think your concerns are shared, it's just that we trust our ability to fix that if it arises20:21
sdagueso, honestly, I think keeping it small is part of what prevents that. Because it's too small for most use cases, except my "first openstack". If we let it get big, then it becomes convoluted with core.20:21
annegentleseems like this particular tag needs some additional parallel tags to make people more comfortable20:21
ttxbasically it's not a bylaws change, we can iterate and change it20:21
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markmcclainthis sends a very powerful signal no matter how we down play it20:22
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ttxok, we need to move on20:22
flaper87dhellmann: FWIW, I do share your concern and I was completely opposed at the previous version of this tag20:22
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flaper87dhellmann: now, that it is called starterkit, it seems more reasonable20:22
ttxit has a majority if Sean votes in favor20:22
flaper87and I do, as ttx mentioned, believe in our ability to rollback20:22
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markmcclainttx: still very concerned with how we'll actually apply the tags20:23
ttxmarkmcclain: that's a different change though20:23
markmcclainttx: there's no mechanism for saying this component in this exact config20:23
ttxwe may iterate on the tag defv before we even apply it20:23
sdaguedtroyer: you are supposed to roll-call vote as well20:23
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dtroyerargh, done20:24
ttxsdague: you abstain ?20:24
sdagueyeh, I said I was going to abstain because it was my patch20:24
sdagueI think that's in the early comments20:24
ttxAlright, I think at this point it's easier to merge it and iterate on it20:25
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ttxbut Doug's point is duly noted, we should keep our eyes open20:25
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ttxthis is for users to have a short list of projects to start playing with a compute use case20:26
ttxnot for excluding projects from the discussion20:26
dhellmannI could vote for this if it had a non-exclusion section, but I don't feel comfortable voting for it as it is now.20:26
ttxdhellmann: I'd suggest you propose it as a subsequent patch20:27
* flaper87 thinks it'd also help to have other kits instead of just one. That way folks would see that it's not something dedicated to just a set of projects20:27
dhellmannttx: ok20:27
annegentlettx: do we have a plan for more use case tags to be proposed? I can work on some if desired.20:27
ttxwe can block the tag application anyway, tag definition is not the end of the road20:27
dtroyerthe object-store kit should be easy to write20:27
* ttx will proceed with approval if gerrit ever answers20:27
flaper87dtroyer: +120:27
Rockyg?me thinks dtroyer stole my idea...;)20:28
* flaper87 has that in his to-write things20:28
ttxok, moving on while I wait for Gerrit to reply20:28
ttx#topic Ansible playbooks and roles to deploy OpenStack20:28
annegentledtroyer: low hanging fruit :)20:28
*** openstack changes topic to "Ansible playbooks and roles to deploy OpenStack (Meeting topic: tc)"20:28
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19110520:28
ttxThis one looks pretty straightforward to me, no need to spend too much time on it20:28
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ttxlast time Gerrit was nice enough to answer it was pretty close20:28
* russellb waiting on gerrit too20:28
cloudnullhi ttx commited that review and am happy to answer any questions.20:28
* sigmavirus24 is around too20:29
ttxany objection, or should I just approve it once it passes 7 yes ?20:29
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dhellmannttx: gerrit isn't loading, so maybe we should wait to give everyone time to vote20:30
* flaper87 has no objections20:30
annegentleis gerrit wearing its slowpants today?20:30
sdaguegerrit has been sad all week20:30
ttxbeen a few days20:30
* sigmavirus24 expected flaper87 to object on the basis of my involvement =P20:30
palendaeFinally loading for me20:30
ttxok it has 7 yes already20:30
flaper87gertty ftw20:30
cloudnullyea its not been happy today at all.20:30
flaper87sigmavirus24: did it in my mind :P20:30
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ttxso I'll give you extra time to push your +1 on it and approve at end of meeting20:30
sdaguethe ansible stuff was all straight forward20:30
sigmavirus24silly gerrit thinking it can have feelings and such20:30
ttx#topic Add Cue Message Broker Service to Openstack20:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Add Cue Message Broker Service to Openstack (Meeting topic: tc)"20:30
flaper87should we take this as a sign?20:31
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19117320:31
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annegentlecloudnull: is the only repo a specs repo?20:31
vipulsi'm here if there are any Cue questions20:31
sigmavirus24flaper87: might take it as a cue for zaqar though20:31
ttxFor this one I was mostly wondering about the "where it makes sense, the project cooperates with existing projects rather than gratuitously competing or reinventing the wheel" requirement20:31
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cloudnullannegentle: we have https://github.com/stackforge/os-ansible-deployment and https://github.com/stackforge/os-ansible-deployment-specs20:31
ttxso whether Cue was not accidentally duplicating a lot of the work already done within Trove to handle clusters of data things20:31
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ttxi.e. are the Cue first-class resources sufficently different from Trove's to make a separate project worth it20:31
annegentlecloudnull: ok I'm not seeing the os-ansible-deployement rep in the proposed patch20:32
sdaguettx: would Sahara be considered a duplication of Trove?20:32
mordredwell, as a person who has used trove apis in anger - I can say that if I could ALSO get a rabbit from it it would be very strange20:32
flaper87ttx: I think they are very different20:32
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russellbmordred: "in anger" ?  heh20:32
ttxsdague: well, a map/reduce cluster has significantly different properties from a queue or a DB20:32
sdaguethis feels very much like Trova and Sahara except with a different base resource20:32
mordredand also - I'd love to be abl to request a rabbit and not know anything about how it works20:32
ttxa queue and DB are about storing and retrieving data20:32
ttxand backup and users20:32
palendaeannegentle: Line 1177? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/191105/2/reference/projects.yaml20:33
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mordredsure - but to me the "don't duplicate" woudl be if this was another dbaas service20:33
russellbi think they're different enough20:33
flaper87ttx: queue's are not always about storing data20:33
vipulsI think the semantics of provisioning, management may be shared across all of these projects, but the API is definitely radically different20:33
flaper87s/queues/messaging systems/20:33
cloudnullannegentle:  i added into the change set but its not in the body of the commit message . i can update it if you'd like to see it there.20:33
sdaguehonestly, things went really wrong when we said "everything that is metadata must go in glance" and "everything that touches a network must go in neutron"20:33
ttxflaper87: sure but cue doesn't do data plane20:33
sdagueso I don't know why we'd start doing that again20:33
flaper87I believe it'd be fair that it could even deploy other messaging systems that are not broker based20:34
sdagueespecially as it's a thing, with a team, doing a thing20:34
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ttxI just want to avoid Trove and Cue copy-pasting 90% of their code20:34
flaper87ttx: I believe they can collaborate in some areas20:34
ttxor reinventing what the other already wrote20:34
jeblairsdague: agreed; i wonder if there is similarity around the deployment mechanisms in these projects that could be factored out, but the end product is different enough to warrant separate projects20:34
flaper87but I don't think the use-case is the same20:34
flaper87jeblair: I believe there is20:34
jeblairttx, flaper87: ^ to that point20:34
* flaper87 beat jeblair20:34
jeblairflaper87: you win this round!20:35
vipulsflaper87: +120:35
ttxI'm fine with it if everyone else thinks it's different for a purpose other than just being different20:35
lifelessI don't understand that argument20:35
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lifelessif we've *truely* moved from saying 'X is openstack' to asking 'are you openstack'20:35
sdaguelifeless: ++20:35
lifelessthen being different shouldn't matter20:35
lifelessSomeone might want to try to do it better20:35
ttxWell, being openstack is also about collaborating where possible20:36
ttxlifeless: I hate gratuitous duplication of effort20:36
lifelessbut we just set up a governance structure designed to bring in effort20:36
ttxi just want to make sure this is not one of those cases20:36
lifelesswe're going to get overlap20:36
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sdagueyeh, but we're going to get some of it. And it's not like the Trove team showed up and said "don't do that"20:36
flaper87I think the point of collaboration where possible is fair and I believe there are areas where these projects can collaborate20:36
lifelessbecause the world isn't neat.20:36
ttxand that it's not "gratuitous"20:36
flaper87it's a good thing that vipuls used to be part of trove as well20:36
flaper87so, that makes it even easier20:36
sdagueif the Trove team was strongly objecting here, I think that would be a different thing20:36
lifelessI think we should be letting concerns like that bubble up20:37
jeblairlifeless: i think in the future we may choose to allow _real_ duplication, and even then, i think it's worth discussing and being deliberate about.  i don't think we are even that far down the line with this project.20:37
lifelessnot impose them ourselves20:37
flaper87FWIW, vipuls is (used to) be a trove core20:37
ttxI guess you know better since it's a HP thing20:37
lifelessjeblair: agreed20:37
flaper87vipuls: amiright ?20:37
vipulsflaper87: correct :D20:37
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vipulsused to be ;)20:37
lifelessttx: so, the HP angle isn't where I'm coming from here. I mean - yes, initiated by HP, because what they felt the HP cloud users wanted and needed didn't exist20:38
sdagueI also think I remember people asking for a thing like this during the very long zaqar integration debate, so it's kind of cool someone showed up and filled that hole.20:38
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mordredsdague: ++20:38
lifelessttx: but my main thing is I want us to really actually truely get out of the way20:38
lifelessttx: and let folk already in the tent come to us with concerns about new entrants20:38
mordredthat's actually why I thnk it's good - it's what a bunch of people thought zaqar was and those peopel were happy about that idea20:38
flaper87sdague: yeah, I believe it was born close (or right after) Zaqar's second grad attempt20:38
sdagueI do think it's another project that warrants the diverity:danger flag, and we should probably take it up.20:39
ttxlifeless: you'll note I'm not opposing it at all, not even voting -1. Just want to put that dead fish on the table20:39
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lifelesslet me slice it up some more, I like sashimi20:39
flaper87I think there's value behind Cue, especially if it'll take the pain of maintaining rabbitmq away from me20:39
* jeblair just ate sushi during the last meeting20:39
* jeblair doesn't feel so well20:39
ttxif you're all comfortable wityh it, I am too20:39
flaper87jeblair: I *just* ate sushi20:39
ttxwe ahve 8 yes, I can approve it now20:39
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ttxjaypipes voted -1 though :)20:40
jaypipesttx: yeah, sorry, I don't really see much point to this, and have the same concerns jogo did.20:40
vipulsjaypipes: didn't leave much of a reason :|20:40
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ttxwell, "not much point" is not a valid objection, I think20:41
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ttxwe are out of the business of judging if there is a point. Still in the business of judging if it will hurt a lot more than it helps, but that's about it20:41
annegentleI haven't looked at Cue til now, so haven't voted.20:41
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jaypipesvipuls: IMHO, the Cue project is trying to put a REST API around stuff that should be in Puppet manifests or Murano app manifests, and Pacemaker OCF resource agents, and I don't agree with it.20:42
ttxok, Looks like Gerrit is back, so I'll proceed in approvals20:42
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russellbjaypipes: yeah, i honestly feel the same way20:42
russellbi just don't care enough to -1 it, i guess20:42
ttxlast call for votes on the previously-discussed changes20:42
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russellbi see projects in this category as questionably useful20:42
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jogojaypipes: s/Trove/Cue/ or s/Trove/Murano and that is still valid20:43
russellbother people seem to think it's helpful, so wfm ...20:43
vipulsjaypipes: If you read some of my comments back to jogo i don't think it's that simple.  It's all about presenting an API that is user-friendly and not shoving everything into a one-fits-all20:43
jaypipesvipuls: I would vote the same way if someone proposed an OpenStack project that reimplemented Puppet in an OpenStack RESTful API.20:43
ttxapproving starterkit at 7 votes, ansible at 8 votes and cue at 920:43
sdagueyeh, I feel like "can be done with Puppet" means we throw out trove, heat, sahara, murano, and a whole bunch of other stuff20:43
jaypipesvipuls: users don't want to deal with MQ clusters via a REST API.20:43
mordredjaypipes: some might20:43
vipulssdague: +120:44
jaypipess/MQ clusters/MQ cluster management/20:44
flaper87My agreement with this comes from the fact that DBs and Messaging systems are things you *need* to put your app in the cloud20:44
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mordredjaypipes: I'd rather get an HA rabbit from my cloud than deploy one with puppet20:44
vipulsjaypipes: could you not say the same thing by s/MQ Clusters/databases?20:44
flaper87I don't think we are going to approve all projects willing to deploy something and take care of the lifecycle20:44
lifelessjaypipes: isn't that zaqar?20:44
vipulsi think we've seen the opposite is true20:44
mordredjaypipes: so, count me in the set of users who run things in clouds who would use this for his rabbit needs20:44
lifelessah, s/ helps ;)20:44
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flaper87lifeless: I could see Zaqar being deployed by Cue20:44
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jaypipesmordred: I'd rather not reimplement Puppet and Pacemaker in a REST API.20:45
flaper87but it doesn't necessarily has to be Zaqar20:45
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lifelessflaper87: right,I was replying to an abbreviated comment20:45
ttxIm fine with REST APIs to set up Dbs and Queues20:45
lifelessyou could also say the same thing about nova20:45
mordredjaypipes: I understand that you would not use it. please undertand that I would20:45
lifelessusers don't want to interact with VM cluster management via a REST api... but they do20:45
mordredlifeless: ++20:45
flaper87I don't think we'll have a REST API to deploy.... PUT_THE_SERVICE_RUNNING_IN_YOUR_HOME_SERVER_HERE20:45
jaypipesmordred: sure, fair enough. and I would just point you at Murano and say "hmm, that is already done."20:45
ttxAlright, this has enough votes to pass, approving now20:45
flaper87at some point we gotta stop20:45
flaper87but queues and dbs? You ain't going to deploy a distributed app without those20:46
sdagueflaper87: honestly, why. If people do a thing, find their audience, it's fine20:46
mordredjaypipes: possibly so - I think murano is a fine solution to the problem space as well20:46
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jaypipesvipuls: yes, you absolutely can say the same about trove.20:46
ttxLet's move on... lots to cover still20:46
ttx#topic Add Solum to OpenStack Projects List20:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Add Solum to OpenStack Projects List (Meeting topic: tc)"20:46
flaper87sdague: mmh, would you have a service that deployes apache ?20:46
vipulsthanks folks!20:46
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19094920:46
mordredaw. but I ahven't  had a good argument with jaypipes in years. :)20:46
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flaper87fuck english20:46
ttxWe discussed this one last week but couldn't gather enough votes for it to pass20:46
ttxit now has... 520:47
ttxQuestions on that that may or may not make you vote ?20:47
jaypipesvipuls, mordred: bottom line, I recognize there is a fine line here...20:47
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jaypipesvipuls, mordred: and I'm just logging my general feeling about duplication of purpose, that's all.20:47
mordredjaypipes: ++20:48
markmcclainttx: sorry missed this one earlier... added my +120:48
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ttxarh, merge conflict fun20:48
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mordredI think solum is clearly a set of people who are us20:48
vipulsjaypipes: yep agreed, appreciate the feedback20:48
adrian_ottoI can post a revision20:48
ttxadrian_otto: please do20:48
adrian_ottonow, or after more votes?20:48
annegentleI got my questions answered just a few minutes ago20:48
ttxit may reset the votes, so now20:48
devkulkarni+1 mordred20:48
adrian_ottook, will do20:49
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sdaguejaypipes: I also don't feel like "well, we let Murano in so now it owns the entire space of all service deploys" because if I knew that was a thing, I'd have voted against that. I felt that was a way we were enabling users, not excluding other ways.20:49
ttxadrian_otto: ping us when done20:49
ttxIn the mean time I'll cover something else20:49
ttx#topic Add type:library and type:service tags20:49
*** openstack changes topic to "Add type:library and type:service tags (Meeting topic: tc)"20:49
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19189120:49
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19189220:50
ttxThose are release-related tags, but I think type:* is more relevant for what we describe here20:50
ttxWe could have type:doc one day for example20:50
jaypipessdague: fair enough.20:50
ttxmerge conflicts there too, added too many new projects20:50
flaper87there are merge conflicts everywhere20:50
dhellmannyes, these new tags are meant to be used by a query tool we have in the release repository so we can find a list of all of the things of a type where we manage the release20:50
flaper87oh noes20:51
dhellmannlet's just vote, and we can rebase patches as needed after we're done and let ttx merge them -- we've done that many times before20:51
flaper87I'll cast my vote after the rebase20:51
ttxIf there are no questions about them I can merge those when they reach 7 yes during the week20:51
sdaguemy only question on the service thing was horizon being in there, because it's not a service per say, so the wording is a bit confusing20:51
sdaguenot that I know if there are any better words20:51
ttxsome libs are not libs per se either :)20:51
dhellmannwhy is horizon not a service?20:51
sdagueit's not an endpoint?20:51
mordreddhellmann: no rest api?20:51
dhellmannservice != rest service20:52
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dhellmannservice == long running thing20:52
dhellmannto differentiate it from command line tool, library, docs, etc.20:52
sdagueok, that's fine.20:52
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mordredI think with keystone having a "service catalog" ... I hear service and I think "something that registers with keystone"20:52
dtroyerdhellmann: would it also be correct for service == !library?  for things that might have either of these tags?20:53
mordredwhich I know flys in the face of the meaning of the actual word20:53
mordredbut this is cloud20:53
mordredwhere we redefine everything20:53
lifelessmaybe we should say daemon20:53
lifelessbut meh20:53
dhellmanndtroyer: the intent is for the type tags to be mutually exclusive, so that each repo only has one type20:53
mordredsay daemon if we mean something other than "something we register with keystone"20:53
ttxdtroyer: except there are things there that are not service and not library20:53
ttxlike a -specs repo20:53
jeblairit's either that or 'project'20:53
mordredjeblair: or 'tenant'20:53
sdagueor policy20:53
ttxor tenant20:53
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dtroyerttx: right, that's what I'm curious about20:53
* Rockyg is pretty sure it's a UI20:53
* fungi ducks back into the bikeshed20:53
sdagueyeh, it's fine, I'm sorry I openned the peanut gallery20:54
ttxok, let's see what can still be merged in this rebase mess20:54
ttx#topic CLA / DCO workplan on Board Agenda20:54
*** openstack changes topic to "CLA / DCO workplan on Board Agenda (Meeting topic: tc)"20:54
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ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation-board/2015-June/000074.html20:54
ttxThat email did not exactly trigger a massive thread of board responses20:54
dhellmannalan did reply, though20:54
ttxoh, recently ?20:54
sdaguewell, there was a reply that yes, someone was going to discuss it20:54
ttxerr.. I missed that reply20:55
sdaguehowever, it was really light on details20:55
sdagueI tried to write up what I remembered we'd kind of agreed to - http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2015-June/001984.html20:55
ttxsdague: you posted that agenda topic, what do you want from it ?20:55
russellbyeah, basically we need the written version that alan refers to20:55
jeblairi think we were hoping for the board to formally vote on something to make sure we are really on the same page20:55
sdaguebecause I can't post to foundation-board, it's board folks only20:55
sdaguethe foundation ML post has not gotten any board member responses on it20:56
mordredyah - and I think the board is waiting on eileen to write something up, is my takeaway from that email from alan20:56
ttxmaybe one of our resident board members could forward that20:56
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russellbi sure hope board members see the foundation list too ...20:56
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mordredand there is a time frame associated with alan's expectations on receiving that20:56
russellbbut i'm not sure there's much more we can do at the moment20:56
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sdagueI hope that http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2015-June/001984.html  represents what others remember from that meeting, if not, corrections welcomed20:56
* dhellmann wonders if anyone not on the board can subscribe to the foundation-board list20:56
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russellbdhellmann: yes20:56
russellbactually i don't know20:57
sdaguedhellmann: but they can't post20:57
russellbarchives are open at least20:57
mordredsdague: it looked good to me20:57
ttxlike openstack-tc really20:57
russellbmordred: sdague ack, looked good to me too20:57
dhellmannrussellb: ok. I thought I had found all lists like this and subscribed, but I guess I missed one20:57
russellbdhellmann: it's relatively new20:57
dhellmannrussellb: thanks, I'll use that as an excuse ;-)20:57
Rockygdhellmann: russellb:  No.20:57
ttxok, looks like it triggered the expected surge in caring about this20:57
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sdagueanyway, the board meeting is coming up soon enough, that I assume there are procedural issues with having a resolution in a state early enough to vote on20:58
russellbsdague: thanks for writing it up, like i said, it did reflect my interpretation as well20:58
sdagueand I don't want the results to be "oh... that wasn't soon enough, punt to fall"20:58
fungithe old (private) foundatin-board ml was renamed to make it less attractive for board members to arbitrarily post to, and this new public ml was created to take its place20:58
ttxsdague: ok, I don't think there is much more to discuss at this point ?20:58
dhellmannfungi: thanks20:58
sdaguettx: probably not20:58
adrian_ottorevision 3 of https://review.openstack.org/190949 available for votes20:58
fungii migrated the subscribers from the private list to the new one, but anyone else who wants so subscribe should be able20:58
russellbsdague: it's in eileen's court to prepare.  i think you should feel free to reach out to her.  she represents your company :)20:59
ttxalright, please reapply votes and I'll approve when it reaches 7 (if it does)20:59
ttx#topic Workgroup reports20:59
adrian_ottotx, ttx20:59
*** openstack changes topic to "Workgroup reports (Meeting topic: tc)"20:59
sdaguerussellb: will do :) I wanted to do open channels first though20:59
ttx* Project Team guide workgroup20:59
ttxI'm happy to announce that the virtual sprint last week was a success, with most chapters having an initial version now20:59
ttxNow we need to publish it somewhere20:59
ttx* Communications workgroup20:59
ttxannegentle, flaper87: o/20:59
russellbsdague: cool, hopefully we keep it moving20:59
ttxyou have one minute20:59
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ttxor not21:00
ttxannegentle: I suspect a new blog post is coming ?21:00
annegentleI think we'll need one this week, yep. I'll start a draft flaper8721:01
dhellmannlots approved today to talk about :-)21:01
ttxoh and everyone, Cue was rebased at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/191173/ so please reapply votes there too21:01
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ttxI'll pick them up tomorrow21:01
ttxAnd that closes it21:01
ttxsorry for the dropped items, my agenda was based on a less eventful road on the first item on the agenda21:02
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:02
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 23 21:02:08 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:02
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-23-20.02.html21:02
ttxWe'll be back next week21:02
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-23-20.02.txt21:02
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-06-23-20.02.log.html21:02
jeblairannegentle: (you're _definitely_ going to want to revise the docs chapter of the project team guide; i wrote it and it's terrible :)21:02
annegentlejeblair: :)21:02
ttxSlickNik: sorry for the delay21:02
ttxI blame dhellmann21:02
cloudnullthanks ttx !21:02
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SlickNikttx: no worries21:02
fungijeblair: you're just baiting the docs team by writing docs about them21:02
jeblairpretty much21:02
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SlickNik#startmeeting crossproject21:03
ttxjeblair: next time, bait them to write it in the first place, like I tricked the VMT to do21:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 23 21:03:23 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is SlickNik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'crossproject'21:03
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ttxSlickNik: thx for chairing !21:03
SlickNikcourtesy ping for david-lyle flaper87 dims ttx johnthetubaguy rakhmerov21:03
SlickNikcourtesy ping for smelikyan morganfainberg bswartz slagle adrian_otto mestery21:03
SlickNikcourtesy ping for kiall jeblair thinrichs j^2 stevebaker mtreinish Daisy21:03
SlickNikcourtesy ping for notmyname dtroyer isviridov gordc SlickNik cloudnull21:03
SlickNikcourtesy ping for loquacities thingee hyakuhei redrobot TravT emilienm21:03
SlickNikcourtesy ping for SergeyLukjanov devananda boris-42 nikhil_k21:03
ttxVolunteers welcome @ https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting#Chair_rotation21:04
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SlickNikPretty packed agenda, so let's get started21:05
SlickNik#topic Team announcements (horizontal, vertical, diagonal)21:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Team announcements (horizontal, vertical, diagonal) (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:05
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dhellmannmilestone tagging is going well this week21:05
dims#info bunch of oslo releases today, timber!21:05
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dhellmannwe still need to talk to stevebaker and kiall about heat and designate21:06
SlickNik#info this is the liberty-1 milestone week — tagging is going well.21:06
ttxdhelmmann and myself synced today with everyone but Heat (stevebaker) and Designate (Kiall)21:06
ttxAnd we already tagged sahara, ceilometer, glance, cinder, trove and keystone21:06
ttxWe should cover the remaining ones in the next two days21:06
fungithe oslo.db release switches the default mysql backend to pymysql, so i can go remove the temporary overrides everywhere for opportunistic detection to prefer pymysql21:07
dhellmannfungi: ++21:07
SlickNiknice, fungi21:07
dimsfungi: yay21:07
fungii think that was basically our last step on that switch? or we maybe still need grenade with the happymaking21:07
fungianyway, the end is in sight21:07
* dhellmann does not use grenades for happy making21:08
fungiwhittling away at the neutron tests which broke on pymysql is likely longer tail21:08
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SlickNikAny other announcements before we move on to the next topic?21:09
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SlickNik#topic Return request-id to caller (use thread local to store request-id)21:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Return request-id to caller (use thread local to store request-id) (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:10
SlickNiktpatil: around?21:10
tpatil#link: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/request-id21:10
tpatilI have put my thoughts in this etherpad url21:10
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tpatilin the last glance meeting, Nikhil suggested us to talk with the cross project team about this topic.21:10
tpatilOur users wants request id from python-*client so that they can approach to service provider to address their issues quickly21:11
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dhellmanntpatil: before you go making a bunch of changes to the client libs, I would like to understand how osprofiler is already doing this, because boris-42 has shown lots of demos of tracing a request through the entire system21:11
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lifelessThere's a nuance here21:12
dhellmanntpatil: the point of asking you to talk to them was to avoid having 2 ways of passing request ids around21:12
lifelessthis concern is 'how can users identify the problem request to the helpdesk'21:12
lifelessthe osprofiler one is 'how can devs/ops see what happened internally to the cluster' - a distributed call graph21:12
lifelessI think alignment and careful dot-joining is important21:13
dhellmannlifeless: yes, right, that's what I'm asking for21:13
morganfainberglifeless: ++21:13
lifelessbut we should remember they are two use cases with very different security etc concerns21:13
dhellmannwe may in fact need 2 separate things, but I would hate to build 2 of the *same* thing21:13
lifelessso - for my part, I'd like to see boris weigh in on this proposal21:13
jokke_also listening ops, it sounds like they are not likely running osprofiler on their production environments, so I think it's bad idea to rely on osprofiler for request IDs21:13
Rockygjokke_: +121:14
lifelessjokke_: I don't see why - if you don't enable a component, you don't get what it does.21:14
morganfainbergjokke_: the request Id part could be split out / made default even if osprofiler is off21:14
morganfainbergIf that is a real concern.21:14
morganfainbergBut I tend to agree with lifeless here.21:14
lifelessjokke_: but - I haven't proposed relying on osprofiler, just saying, lets not throw it out without having the flk behind it in the room21:15
dhellmannyeah, we could split it, but let's get someone to actually do the technical analysis of what both teams need and understand where the cross-over is before we start worrying about what the final implementation details are21:15
tpatilRestful API return x-openstack-request-id so why not return it from client as well?21:15
johnthetubaguyso right now, we give our users request-ids, its part of the REST API already right, in most cases at least, the client work is just returning it to users of the client right?21:15
dimson oslo-incubator there was at least one review merged that saves last request id as part of this bug - https://bugs.launchpad.net/heat/+bug/134292221:15
openstackLaunchpad bug 1342922 in heat "request id not captured" [Medium,Triaged]21:15
dimshttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/117493/ - but no one is using that21:15
johnthetubaguytpatil: so thats what I was just thinking here21:15
lifelessjohnthetubaguy: that makes the scope nice and small and I entirely support showing that to users.21:15
SlickNikdhellmann: I agree. Seems like some discovery / analysis is required here.21:15
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy: so we're already returning this data?21:15
johnthetubaguynova certainly is, as I understand it21:16
morganfainbergThis could also mostly be rolled into session object and just displaying the details on the request like johnthetubaguy indicated.21:16
lifelessdhellmann: not everywhere AIUI, but many places21:16
johnthetubaguythe REST API already returns request-ids21:16
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johnthetubaguylifeless: right, not everyone is yet21:16
* lifeless thinks21:16
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy: cool, so then maybe part one of the work is just a matter of agreeing on the API for the clients to return that to callers that want it21:16
morganfainbergAs long as the api returns the id, it's easy.21:16
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jokke_dhellmann: I like the idea of analyzing, but the situation seems to be that tpatil and guys are pretty much trying to implement something now. And I don't blame them looking how long this bikeshedding has been going on21:17
lifelessosprofiler is server side. Insofar as the changes are just client side, I see no reason to force a discussion. Its noddy.21:17
dhellmannand file bugs for the APIs that aren't, and implement the return the same way everywhere21:17
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dhellmannjokke_: I hardly think this is bikeshedding.21:17
johnthetubaguyso previous discussions hit a road block when the services start requesting the callers request-id, thats the bit thats new21:17
Rockygdhellmann: lifeless: +121:17
dimshave we standardized the rest api header?21:17
lifelessInsofar as there's a defacto standard amongst some N existing APIs, I think propogating that across all openstack APIs is also sane21:17
lifelessbut the API WG is where we should have that discussion.21:18
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tpatilpython-openstacksdk team agreed to add this support21:18
morganfainberglifeless: +21:18
tpatil#link: #link: https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-openstacksdk/+bug/146581721:18
openstackLaunchpad bug 1465817 in OpenStack SDK "Provide method to get latest request id" [Medium,Confirmed]21:18
johnthetubaguy+1 for an API WG spec on the header21:18
dhellmannlifeless: I agree, though I'm ok with going ahead with a defacto standard in the mean time21:18
dims'x-openstack-request-id' is what's in the oslo-incubator review above21:18
lifelessdhellmann: me too, but I don't want to diminish the WG's momentum21:19
dhellmannlifeless: ok21:19
bknudsonoslo.middleware uses x-openstack-request-id21:19
morganfainbergdims: i only request we drop "x-" based on the Rfc recommendation to not "x-<header>" anymore21:19
morganfainbergIf we can easily change that.21:19
elmikomorganfainberg: +121:19
dimsmorganfainberg: works for me21:19
morganfainbergIf it isn't easy to change then keep it x-21:19
SlickNik#link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.middleware/tree/oslo_middleware/request_id.py#n2321:19
lifelessmorganfainberg: we already have the x- in lots of use21:19
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lifelessmorganfainberg: a transition should be discussed separately IMO21:20
johnthetubaguyI think the ship has sailed though, given we have users relying on these headers where they exist already, but thats something for a different conversation21:20
morganfainberglifeless: we do. If we are adding a new things we should do new thing right. Was my point.21:20
morganfainbergIf it already is there don't change it.21:20
dhellmannok, so I think we're agreeing that part 1 of updating clients to return the value is safe, and that we want all services to use the same header, and the API WG should be involved in setting that but since we have a pretty strong standard already we would expect them to codify it?21:20
lifelessthey could codify it and also design the transition logic at the same time, for instance.21:20
morganfainbergNot worth a headache. But if it isn't used/in place we can do it "right"21:20
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dhellmannthe step 2 from the etherpad is more where I'm concerned with osprofiler cross-over21:20
dhellmannlifeless: that would be fine21:21
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lifelessso tpatil whats step 2 about21:21
lifelesstpatil: like, whats the goal21:21
tpatilfirst we want to achieve step 121:21
Rockygpretty much a linked list of ids I think21:22
tpatilStep 2, We are ok to work how osprofiler fits in here.21:22
lifelessso lets put a pin in step 2 and defer it21:22
tpatilIs it possible to link trace_id with x-openstack-request-id?21:22
johnthetubaguyso the step 2 is the bit I really want to see, when wearing my large operator hat, log messages that link the requests as they flow between projects21:22
tpatillifeless: ok21:22
lifelesswhen you've had time to discuss with boris we can come back to it21:22
lifelessjohnthetubaguy: have you tried osprofiler?21:22
johnthetubaguy(and ideally notifications along with the logs)21:22
lifelessjohnthetubaguy: since it does that ...21:22
johnthetubaguylifeless: no, mostly due the perceived overhead for running it in production21:23
Rockygjohnthetubaguy: +1 on notifications21:23
dhellmannyeah, osprofiler I think does a lot of that, but it may do some things we *don't* want so we may want to break that up into pieces to let them be consumed separately21:23
lifelessjohnthetubaguy: ok - so I think we need to do a deep dive on that with boris.21:23
jrolllifeless: it's not recommended to run osprofiler on every request. only a small subset.21:23
johnthetubaguylifeless: now thats not a good answer, but its the truthful one21:23
lifelessjohnthetubaguy: hah :)21:23
RockygYeah.  No ops guy wants to run something named *profiler in production21:24
lifelessjroll: thats from production experience?21:24
jrolllifeless: that's boris' intended use case21:24
morganfainbergRockyg: yes.21:24
lifelessRockyg: we can rename it if thats the thing, but we're about to rathole.21:24
johnthetubaguyso back to requirements21:24
SlickNik#info Step 1 in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/request-id seems reasonable - don't tackle step 2 without more information about osprofiler / communication with boris21:24
lifelessRockyg: very big clouds (Google scale) run nearly the exact same thing all the time21:24
dhellmannit sends notifications right? so we would want to split that off from the thing that handles the request ids21:24
dhellmannSlickNik: ++21:24
dhellmannbefore we move on...21:24
RockygThe key is that the RId has to be low impact process21:24
dhellmannlet's talk process, because I want to raise the issue that the cross-project spec was rejected but the team went off and submitted specs to individual projects. I'm not sure I like the bypass that appears to be.21:24
johnthetubaguywhen my nova boot fails due to a cinder volume create issue, I want to find the cinder logs from the nova request id my user knows about, and I find in my Nova API logs21:25
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johnthetubaguys/when my nova/when my customers nova/21:25
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy: the request chaining that osprofiler provides should allow that, if we push the request id chain down to the logs21:25
morganfainbergdhellmann: some of those specs predated cross project specs.21:25
jrolllifeless: I told boris I want something to collect metrics on every request, he said I sohuld not do that :)21:25
morganfainbergdhellmann: FYI21:25
lifelessjroll: ok, I think boris is perhaps boris' worst enemy.21:25
dhellmannmorganfainberg: ok, still.21:26
SlickNikdhellmann: That's interesting — do we have a process in such a case?21:26
jrolllifeless: you realize it puts hundreds of messages on the rabbit bus for each request?21:26
johnthetubaguydhellmann: agreed, I was just trying to state the use case I care about, (and its perceived that profiler is too heavy weight to do that for all requests, which is what I need here)21:26
dhellmannSlickNik: no, that's why I raised the point. There was a good faith expectation that the cross-project spec would take precedence, since the discussion was already going on there.21:26
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lifelessjroll: its also modular enough to change that fairly easily.21:26
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy: yep, we'll solve that21:26
lifelessjroll: I want to take 'internals of osprofiler' offline from this meeting.21:26
tpatildhellmann: Based on inputs we received from different teams, we took the decision to create bp in the individual python-*client projects.21:27
jrolllifeless: fair21:27
Rockygtpatil: did you reference it in the spec?21:27
dhellmanntpatil: yes, that's what I'm objecting to. What would you have done if those teams had decided independently that they wanted different things?21:27
morganfainbergtpatil: this just to display back to the user, right?21:27
SlickNikdhellmann: usually I'd expect the vertical teams to push the spec back to the cross-project repo / meeting since it does have a wider impact, but I'm not sure if we have any other process here.21:27
jokke_dhellmann: SlickNik: Specially as IIRC when the x-project specs were started it was agreement that we move this discussion from the individual specs to the x-project one21:27
tpatildhellmann: Not yet, but we will do that21:27
morganfainbergjokke_: ++21:28
dhellmanntpatil: I'm not sure how to interpret that as an answer to my question, were you replying to Rockyg ?21:28
morganfainbergjokke_: that was my understanding.21:28
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dhellmannSlickNik: yes, but I don't necessarily expect the foo-drivers to be aware of the cross-project specs21:28
fungithough it would be really great if they were21:28
dhellmanntpatil: my question was, "What would you have done if those teams had decided independently that they wanted different things?"21:29
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dhellmannfungi: yes, I would love that world21:29
Rockygdhellmann: that's the issue in a nutshell.  xproject doesn't have the visibility it needs21:29
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dhellmanntpatil: I'm raising the issue to make sure we all understand the process, not to point fingers at you for doing something wrong.21:29
thingeedhellmann: the ptl or liaison should be aware of cross project spec to raise it in individual project specs. It has happened many times in cinder.21:29
tpatildhellmann: May be we have interpreted differently from different groups. Please let us know what is required to fix these issues. we will follow on that path.21:29
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dhellmannthingee: agreed; did that happen, or were these specs approved in the projects?21:30
* thingee apologizes for late response. Cell service is bad21:30
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Rockygthingee: +1 all ptls of projets concerned with a xproject spec should be on the review list21:30
dhellmanntpatil: My preference would be for you to wait for the cross-project spec to be resolved before proceeding with working on code, or specs within the projects, to avoid different implementations from being out of sync.21:30
thingeedhellmann: assuming you're talking about cinder and the request id spec, I think I've already raised this needs to be approved cross project first already.21:31
dhellmannthingee: I wasn't actually talking about any project in particular, but that's good to hear.21:31
tpatildhellmann: ok21:31
bknudsona single keystoneclient API call could cause multiple requests, e.g., if you have to refresh the token. So I'm not sure how to return "the" request id.21:32
dhellmannreally, I'm not complaining about *this* spec, I'm trying to make sure we have a common understanding of the process in general21:32
jokke_I also said on the Glance meeting last week that we should resolve the x-project one before starting to implement anything in the project21:32
dhellmannbknudson: great point, maybe it should be a list21:32
dhellmannjokke_: ok, good21:32
thingeedhellmann: is there a particular example of this happening you're talking about?21:32
dhellmannmaybe my concern is unfounded, and this is proceeding as expected -- I thought these other specs were approved21:32
RockygSo, question is:  should the client side be in same xproject spec or can it be a link to another xproject spec?21:33
jokke_but I don't know how many driver actually cross checks specs proposed to other projects/x-project specs21:33
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johnthetubaguydhellmann: bknudson: I am confused, the caller just returns a unique id for that specific API call, inside it it knows the other related request ids right,, and logs them and sends notifications, I didn't think they got returned to the end user too?21:33
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RockygIf they can be accomplished independently, I would think link and sub spec could be approved independent of master?21:34
SlickNikOkay, we need to call time on this and move on to the next item.21:34
bknudsonjohnthetubaguy: this is step 1 of https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/request-id -- changing the client libs to return the request id.21:34
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy: I think bknudson means if you have a long-lived keystone client it might end up making multiple requests as you use it21:34
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SlickNiktpatil: It looks we have concrete next steps here of driving this through the x-project specs?21:34
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SlickNikto standardize on the approach21:35
johnthetubaguydhellmann: ah, good point, now I get you both21:35
tpatilSlickNik: I will wait for cross specs to be approved21:35
Rockygtpatil: just consider yourselves the guinea pig that will help all that follow behind ;-)21:35
bknudsonI could do keystoneclient.list_users(), and it calls keystone to get a token and then calls keystone to get the user list.21:35
dhellmannSlickNik, tpatil : do we need a new version of the cross-project spec so we can formally approve that? or is the current draft up to date with the plan we've agreed to here today?21:35
dhellmannbknudson: good point21:36
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dhellmannbknudson: if this is meant to be used for debugging failures, maybe we only care about the last request made, still?21:36
tpatildhellman: I think we need a new version here.21:36
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lifelessquery bknudson https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186635/ <- done the edits asked for21:36
dhellmannif the token request fails, we'll have that id and if the list call fails we'll have that id21:36
SlickNik#topic New API Guidelines ready for cross project review21:36
*** openstack changes topic to "New API Guidelines ready for cross project review (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:36
morganfainbergdhellmann / bknudson: or not the auth request.21:36
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bknudsondhellmann: y, that makes sense... maybe a simple function just gets the last call and another function returns all calls21:37
dhellmanntpatil: ok, I'll watch for the update21:37
lifelessso there's design work on how to expose that in the client21:37
lifelessthe sdk and the python apis on the clients should all be the same here21:37
tpatildhellman: sure, we will update it soon.21:37
lifelessI think - I want to see that in an actual cross project spec21:37
elmikonot sure if etoews is around, but we have the 3 guidelines posted in the agenda for reference https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting#Proposed_agenda21:37
SlickNikLooks like this topic is primarily for cross-project visibility21:37
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elmikoetoews, did you have anything specific to add about the guidelines up for freeze?21:38
SlickNiketoews: anything you'd like to add here?21:38
SlickNik#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/177468/21:38
etoewsnope. just getting these in front of the CPLs.21:38
SlickNik#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/181931/21:39
SlickNik#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/183599/21:39
elmikothanks SlickNik21:39
etoewsthey'll also been added as individual reviews on the guidelines too. the more viz the better.21:39
lifelessjaypipes: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/183599/ is internally inconsistent21:39
lifelessjaypipes: I've comemnted on it21:39
etoewsthx lifeless21:40
* nikhil_k back from appt21:40
SlickNikSounds good. etoews jaypipes et al.: Thanks for putting this together!21:40
etoewsthis will be a weekly thing. ;)21:40
SlickNik#topic Add requirements management specification.21:41
*** openstack changes topic to "Add requirements management specification. (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:41
thingeeameade: ^21:41
SlickNik#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186635/21:41
lifeless^ I want +A's plox :)21:41
lifelessits been discussed here for visibilty a couple weeks ago and only cosemtic change requests received21:42
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morganfainberglifeless: sorry I can only +1 so hard. :P21:43
jokke_lifeless: I do not have powar for +a, but ye got my +1 ;)21:44
SlickNiklifeless morganfainberg: ++21:44
dhellmannif we get enough +1 on record we can put it on the tc meeting agenda for next week21:44
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dhellmannPTLs or liaisons should read that carefully, though, to understand how big of a change it is going to be21:45
SlickNikAny more questions on this?21:45
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Rockygyeah.  The devil is in the details here.21:46
jokke_lifeless: we will haunt ye really bad if that does not solve the issue 'thoug :P21:46
hogepodgewho manages upgrading pins?21:46
SlickNik#topic Open Discussion21:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:46
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lifelesshogepodge: we all do21:46
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nikhil_kAlso, should the security related upgrade pins be handled separately ?21:46
dhellmannnikhil_k: how separately?21:47
hogepodgelifeless: from personal experience, it's painful. More painful than world breaking? Don't know21:47
* ttx reapplies vote21:47
hogepodgeclarkb: has good views on that, and has be waffling on the idea fwiw21:47
RockygNeed to ad a repository for use cases managed by Product_wg, and dhellmann suggested a new file in the governance repository, but I was thinking perhaps a file to encompass all wgs rather than just Product?21:47
* SlickNik is back after a network hiccup21:47
nikhil_kdhellmann: dedicated team that involves laisons from all concerned projects21:47
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hogepodgeRelated to my api topic from last week, there's a really good mailing list thread about glance v1/v2 upgrade on defcore mailing list21:48
hogepodge#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/defcore-committee/2015-June/000823.html21:48
dhellmannRockyg: we already have some other working groups with their own files, so maybe start with a new one for your repo and then a second patch to merge those together into one file? that way we can address the 2 questions separately21:48
fungihogepodge: i think long-term we want a periodic job which spots new releases of things and tries to run tests with the cap bumped21:48
lifelesshogepodge: there's a cron job to propose pin changes21:48
hogepodgefungi: ++21:48
lifelesshogepodge: we just need to +2 +A it21:48
nikhil_kbut that still is a bit unworthy if the libs that need upgrades are not in openstack control (transient)21:48
Rockygthanks, dhellmann.  wfm21:48
lifelessfungi: we hve that job21:49
funginikhil_k: the idea is that we add them all to the new requirements list, transitive or no21:49
lifelessfungi: its in the spec, and its in infra puppet already21:49
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fungilifeless: true, that's the constraints job21:49
lifelessfungi: we don't need transitive things in requirements. constraints will pick them up automatically.21:49
hogepodgelifeless: I loved working with maven and pinning dependencies in a previous life when I did Java. I also had to schedule time into my milestones for upgrades.21:49
lifelesshogepodge: sure21:49
lifelesshogepodge: we've 1000 folk hacking on openstack, doing it randomly with no testing is just unconsiconable21:50
SlickNikhogepodge: yes, it's difficult to eat your cake and have it too :)21:50
jokke_hogepodge: """* use glance v2 (only just released, not really deployed anywhere)""" is interesting statement :P21:50
nikhil_kfungi: yeah, I worried about convergence speed vs. security risk more subjectively so, not pushing hard. it's a food for thought :)21:50
ttxhogepodge: you used "love" and "maven" in the same sentence there21:50
lifelesshttps://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/requirements+branch:master+owner:lifeless,n,z <-21:50
lifelessthats the top of the implementation stack if you're interested21:51
hogepodgettx: I feel no shame. I also migrated to clojure and life was amazing21:51
* ttx closes eyes21:51
morganfainbergttx: where is hogepodge and what happens to him. No one can say love and maven and mean it.21:51
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Rockyghogepodge may be a lost soul ;-)21:51
RockygBut, back to the glance discussion hogepodge brought up?21:52
ttxsomeone must have overtaken his IRC account21:52
* ttx likes to disrupt this meeting, but only when he is not chairing it :)21:52
hogepodgettx I upgraded my password from 'password123' to my dog's name, so I don't know how that could have happened21:52
SlickNikAny other items for Open Discussion?21:52
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Rockyg#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/defcore-committee/2015-June/000823.html21:53
SlickNikIf not we can call this a meeting and figure out a way to get hogepodge back. :)21:53
Rockygthe glance/defcore issue21:53
hogepodgesrsly, the defcore mailing list item is a good read, and I think I may cross post it to dev21:53
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* nikhil_k will respond21:54
johnthetubaguyso this was mostly me ranting about image uploads21:54
ttxhogepodge: I think it's relevant there, at least a summary of it21:54
johnthetubaguynikhil_k: I cced you in there, would love feedback on accuracy of my statements21:54
johnthetubaguybasically, I don't see nova supporting glance v2 as a blocker to devcore doing what it wants21:54
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ttxjohnthetubaguy: not just you. I heard mordred there too21:54
johnthetubaguynova has a v1 image API, because we had to, and glance v1 wasn't designed to be exposed to end users21:55
Rockygttx: but mordred was moaning about glane and *so* much more21:55
hogepodgeIn my perfect world, nova supports both and it's a complete non-issue. I want to help move that forward.21:55
johnthetubaguywe would love to delete that, but know thats now almost impossible21:55
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johnthetubaguyits used to much21:55
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johnthetubaguyhogepodge: so I don't think thats at all relevant, but as I said, I might be missing something21:56
jokke_hogepodge: you're probably flaper87's new best friend with that statement21:56
johnthetubaguynow its something we have wanted in Nova for a long time, but the work has just not been completed yet21:56
johnthetubaguythe bigger question is21:56
hogepodgejohnthetubaguy: we test the nova proxy to glance, as glance isn't directly a required component21:57
fungiso the concern, as i recall it, was that to test the cloud tempest first wants to be able to upload an image into it and then boot from that. so i guess the suggestion is to upload via glance v2 if present, then try v1 if not?21:57
johnthetubaguywe need a single API to list images and upload and download images21:57
jokke_johnthetubaguy: just quick correction. Image API v2 has been around for couple of years, the work for nova to consume it, is quite recent21:57
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johnthetubaguyhogepodge: the proxy will only ever support v1, but I don't see how that blocks people21:57
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hogepodgea way forward may be to just require glance capabilities, then allow switching between v1 and v2'21:57
dhellmannwhy does nova need to consume glance v2 for it to be present and useful in the cloud for testing?21:58
johnthetubaguyjokke_:agreed its been around, I was told it only got released as such in kilo, which surprised me21:58
hogepodgejohnthetubaguy: if we're ok with vendors having to implement v1, even if only privately for nova21:58
dhellmannhogepodge: can't we just say "expose glance v2, that's the public API"?21:58
johnthetubaguydhellmann: thats my point21:58
nikhil_kv2 work in nova isn't recent, fyi21:58
hogepodgedhellmann: see proxy and capabilities clause. right now, nova api is required for images for defcore21:58
nikhil_kit's complicated (can be)21:58
hogepodgedhellmann: that can be changed, though.21:58
dhellmannhogepodge: yes, I think that's exactly what we're saying: glance has 2 APIs, one is private one is public, you need both21:59
hogepodgewith enough input21:59
jokke_johnthetubaguy: oh :P ... I think that's someone taking the fact bit wrong that _both_ of the API's were marked current and we changed v1 to Supported only in kilo after realizing that21:59
nikhil_kand can you have openstack w/o glance, huh21:59
dhellmannI mean, it's the same API process, right?21:59
mtreinishhogepodge: which honestly is something that never made sense to me21:59
hogepodgemtreinish: we had to start somewhere21:59
SlickNikOkay, we're at the hour — so we'll have to continue the conversation after the meeting.21:59
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hogepodgemtreinish: One of my bigger concerns is the disconnect between tests and endpoints.21:59
SlickNikBut that's it for today's cross project meeting.21:59
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dhellmannhogepodge: yes, I think we should encourage defcore to not use nova's proxy APIs for anything where there is a public API in another project. So that wasn't the case before, but now it is, so...22:00
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johnthetubaguynikhil_k: you can do volumes only but yeah, thats an odd one22:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 23 22:00:21 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-06-23-21.03.html22:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-06-23-21.03.txt22:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-06-23-21.03.log.html22:00
SlickNikThanks all!22:00
mtreinishhogepodge: the tests map 1:1 with either the proxy or the glance versioned endpoint22:00
elmikothanks SlickNik !22:00
mtreinishthat's why there are 3 copies of all the tests :)22:00
mtreinishhogepodge: we can pick this up elsewhere22:00
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hogepodgemtreinish: :-D22:00
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ttxSlickNik: thx!22:01
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