Tuesday, 2015-11-17

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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 17 08:00:26 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"08:33
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 17 08:33:02 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)08:33
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-11-17-08.00.html08:33
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-11-17-08.00.txt08:33
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-11-17-08.00.log.html08:33
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alex_xu#startmeeting nova api12:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 17 12:00:02 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is alex_xu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.12:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.12:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'nova_api'12:00
alex_xuwho is here today?12:00
alex_xumarkus_z: welcome12:00
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alex_xuemm...so quiet today12:01
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alex_xulet's wait few more mins if more people join in12:01
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markus_zIt's early for the US folks I guess12:02
alex_xuyea, pretty early12:02
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alex_xujichen: oomichi Kevin_Zheng hi12:02
* johnthetubaguy is lurking12:02
alex_xuok, let's start the meeting12:02
alex_xuI changed a little for agenda, it's only talk about priority items, for the low priority only bring up when there is something important update12:03
alex_xu#topic actions from last meeting12:03
*** openstack changes topic to "actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:03
alex_xualex_xu update the PoC to show more example12:03
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alex_xu#link https://review.openstack.org/23344612:03
alex_xuI have update it and with new way. it is use swagger spec in the nova code. And this way can instead of wsgi decorators.12:04
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alex_xuThen the doc and definition of api in single place(in swagger spec), that is more readable12:04
oomichialex_xu: thanks for doing that, nice direction for me12:04
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alex_xuappreciate people can take a look at and give feed back12:05
alex_xuoomichi: thanks :)12:05
alex_xuI will continue update and give more detail, still have a lot of TODOs12:05
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oomichialex_xu: how about making the scope small as the first step?12:06
johnthetubaguyalex_xu: can I check about the swagger?12:06
oomichialex_xu: it is difficult to do all thing at a single step12:06
johnthetubaguyalex_xu: its auto generated, but then checked into our repo?12:06
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johnthetubaguyalex_xu: oh wait, I see you reference the external swagger doc for each API... hmm12:07
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alex_xuoomichi: I will separated the patch when most ideas figure out12:07
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oomichialex_xu: I see, cool12:07
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: sorry, I didn't quite get you, what means external swagger doc?12:08
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oomichijohnthetubaguy: yeah, right. on PoC, applying the swagger doc to the code instead of auto-generating swagger doc12:09
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: you mean validated the generated swagger, or you mean how to read the swagger easily?12:09
oomichijohnthetubaguy: from the code12:09
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johnthetubaguyyeah, I was kinda expecting the swagger to get auto generated from the code12:09
oomichijohnthetubaguy: that is one way, and the other is to apply swagger doc/spec to the code12:10
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: the PoC use swagger to describe the API directly12:10
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alex_xuinstead of those wsgi decorator like wsgi.response(204), expected_errors((400, 403, 404)), ....12:11
johnthetubaguyyeah, not sure thats what I was expecting12:11
oomichion http://swagger.io/getting-started/ , there are two ways to apply swagger12:11
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alex_xujohnthetubaguy: yea, it is another try, currently the python looks like more clear. and document and definition in the single place12:12
oomichion current PoC, that seems top-down approach12:12
johnthetubaguyso, this feels very error prone, honestly12:12
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oomichithe first PoC is maybe johnthetubaguy expectation.12:13
oomichibut the code was dirty due to a lot of decorators12:13
oomichion each api implementation12:14
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alex_xuthere are some tools use similar way in the flask, like https://github.com/rochacbruno/flasgger12:15
alex_xuthe only different is they write swagger in the doc string12:15
oomichialex_xu: that seems big difference for nova's implementation ;)12:16
alex_xuso anyway continue discussion on the gerrit, give people more time to think about it?12:17
johnthetubaguyyeah, I think so12:17
oomichialex_xu: nice for doing that12:17
alex_xuoomichi: yea, looks like we instead of some infra tools we build before12:17
alex_xuso let's move on12:18
alex_xualex_xu contact the doc team about swagger stuff12:18
sdagueI agree with johnthetubaguy, this seems really error prone12:18
alex_xuI didn't finish this action....so give another action I will do it in this week12:19
alex_xu#action alex_xu contact the doc team about swagger stuff12:19
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alex_xusdague: so you still like use doc string?12:19
sdagueyeh, at least that's near the code12:19
johnthetubaguyhonestly I preferred the decorators to hand creating the swagger12:20
johnthetubaguybut doc string would be event better, I think12:20
sdaguehonestly, the https://github.com/rochacbruno/flasgger stuff does look interesting. To the point that a N conversion of the wsgi stack to flask might be worth while12:20
alex_xusdague: actually we need create a format for doc string, that looks like we create another 'swagger' spec12:20
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sdaguehonestly, the yaml that flasgger uses looks like what I'd expect12:21
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johnthetubaguysdague: using the same yaml as flasgger looks like a good idea12:21
alex_xusdague: but feel that is error prone, the decorator and doc string may talk about different thing12:21
sdaguealex_xu: but at least it's right there on the method12:22
oomichiyeah, that is diferent from current implementation12:22
sdagueif these things are in another part of the tree, they are going to be wrong12:22
sdaguewe saw that with the wadl12:22
johnthetubaguyalex_xu: we can test they are in sync, and at least they are close to each other12:22
oomichiit would be nice to do that after migrating to flask12:22
johnthetubaguyyeah, I think wadl tought us we just ignore it12:22
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: ok12:23
johnthetubaguyalthough I would rather we didn't add flask into the mix here, unless we really need it12:23
sdagueyeh, that's fine12:23
sdagueI think we can coopt their format though12:23
sdagueanyway, I think the experiments so far have kind of shown there are some hard issues to work through here, which means I think we should put this down for the rest of the cycle, otherwise we're going to be distracted by this and not touch the docs12:24
alex_xusdague: you mean focus on current wadl api reference/12:25
sdagueno, I mean focus on the text of the API12:26
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oomichisdague: that is concept thing?12:26
johnthetubaguyI guess focus on the current wadl text and and the concept guide?12:26
sdaguehonestly, the concept guide, examples in documentation on how to use the API are going to go much further for people than any formal specification12:27
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johnthetubaguyyeah, the concept guide is a big blocker12:27
johnthetubaguybut the compete API reference not actually talking about some of the searching/filtering stuff, is a worry too12:27
alex_xuthe problem wadl isn't support microversion12:28
oomichican we get volunteers for making the concept guide better already ?12:28
johnthetubaguyright, I think we should get v2.1 correct to start with12:29
jichenyeah, current wadl some talked about latest version while some talked about v2.112:29
alex_xujichen: oops, that is bad12:29
alex_xu#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-v2.1-api-doc12:29
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johnthetubaguygetting a solid v2.1, is the most important bit12:30
alex_xuoomichi: ^ we use this track the work12:30
sdaguethe only reason we use wadl is to generate this - http://developer.openstack.org/api-ref-compute-v2.1.html12:30
jichene.g http://developer.openstack.org/api-ref-compute-v2.1.html#keypairs-v2.112:30
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oomichialex_xu: thanks :)12:30
johnthetubaguysdague: yeah, I basically mean update that doc12:30
alex_xulet me jump the topic12:30
sdaguehowever, we could just *edit* that html installed12:30
alex_xu#topic API Documentation12:30
*** openstack changes topic to "API Documentation (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:30
sdaguewadl was supposed to be a tool to make this easier, but it clearly isn't12:30
* edleafe wanders in half-asleep12:30
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sdagueso why don't we just take over the html file and just write it ourselves12:31
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sdagueforcing through a set of tools that only make it harder to do what we want to do just seems weird12:31
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alex_xulooks like need some change for the doc job12:32
alex_xusdague: I guess the html theme is generated automactially12:33
sdaguesure, everything would need a change somewhere. But I mostly want to get folks to realize that these things are tools to make life easier, if they don't, we should go around them. We shouldn't be a slave to the tools.12:33
alex_xusdague: if there is something theme changed, that will be pain12:33
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johnthetubaguyso I do agree with should ditch bad tools, but I am not sure its all about the tooling at this point though12:34
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: sure12:34
johnthetubaguywe can get the base v2.1 sorted, with the existing tooling12:34
johnthetubaguyand we can get the concept guide finished12:35
johnthetubaguyat that point, we get to decide how to do v2.2 I think12:35
sdagueok, so are there any content patches up for review now?12:35
johnthetubaguyI just want to be sure we don't slow progress right now12:35
johnthetubaguyso I added mine to the the etherpad12:35
johnthetubaguy#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-nova-priorities-tracking12:35
sdaguelink ? (sorry, so many etherpads)12:36
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sdagueok, great12:36
alex_xu#info please put api doc patch into the https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-nova-priorities-tracking12:36
alex_xusome patches link still in the https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-v2.1-api-doc12:37
johnthetubaguyso that is the main etherpad, that links to all others (in theory)12:37
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jichenalex_xu: which one? the patches in the doc etherpad?12:37
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: yep, got it now12:37
jichenok, got it12:37
jichenby the way, previous merged patches has not much review such as https://review.openstack.org/#/c/244038/12:38
alex_xuok, the finial decision is just focus on the concept doc and wadl api ref12:38
sdagueok, so my recommendation. For this meeting. Agenda item #1: content patches up for review. Agenda item #2: most needed next content patches. Agenda item: #3 api specs outstanding by community. Agenda #4: api changes outstaing by community.12:39
oomichinice agenda :)12:39
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johnthetubaguyso one more question, the wadl stuff lives in openstack/api-site right now12:40
alex_xuyea, nice agenda12:40
johnthetubaguydo we want that inside nova? I am unsure really12:40
johnthetubaguysdague: +1 for that agenda, makes sense12:40
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johnthetubaguyso if its in nova, we can force people to land docs with their API patches, in theory, at least12:41
sdaguewe can do depends-on12:41
oomichijohnthetubaguy: it was difficult to change wadl files directly by hands12:41
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: at least that is thing after wadl support microversion12:41
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: I think the more important thing is to get the api subteam +2 rights on our repo12:42
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sdaguejohnthetubaguy: or some way that we can approve through content quicker12:42
sdagueso that we can sprint on those fixes12:42
sdagueok, so here are some content patches which need review12:42
johnthetubaguysdague: so the etherpad is meant to do that, eventually the subteam approve counts as a +2, once its trusted12:42
sdague#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/236947/ - Add more 'actions' for server concepts doc12:43
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sdaguejohnthetubaguy: sure, that still means you are sitting around waiting for folks12:43
johnthetubaguysdague: we could do a feature branch for the docs12:43
sdagueif I dedicate 1/2 a day to reviewing through a bunch of this, I want the ability to land it all then.12:44
sdaguemaybe we're talking across purposes here12:44
johnthetubaguydo you mean api-site?12:44
sdaguemy concern is api-site12:44
johnthetubaguyah, gotcha12:44
johnthetubaguymaybe we could ask for a feature branch over there?12:44
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johnthetubaguyI mean we could just drag it into the Nova tree, along side the concept guide12:45
johnthetubaguybut I see your point12:45
johnthetubaguythats not the key issue12:45
sdagueyeh, let's just ask about that12:45
sdague#action sdague ask docs team about approval rights by api subteam on our wadl12:45
johnthetubaguysdague: thanks12:46
alex_xusdague: thanks12:46
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alex_xuso move on, we still have other agenda?12:46
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markus_zI'd like to say a few words about api related bugs, if we have time left?12:46
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alex_xumarkus_z: yea, there is open topic12:47
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alex_xusdague: do you want to talk remove project_id?12:47
alex_xuif there is any update12:47
alex_xuif not just jump it12:47
sdaguealex_xu: sure, auggy is working on tests for it right now12:48
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sdagueshe's going to get the api_samples to run a 4th run with optional project_id on v2.112:48
sdaguewe walked through the test infrastructure and the testscenarios the other day12:48
alex_xusdague: ok12:48
sdagueso I'm hopefully that's read to go this week12:48
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sdagueI don't think it's passing quite yet12:49
alex_xusdague: ok, cool, just wait the patch up for review12:49
sdagueI'll add it to the etherpad once it is12:49
alex_xuok, let's mvoe on12:49
* annegentle waves ever so briefly since kids have to get to school early today (only happens once a month)12:49
alex_xu#topic API futures - specs12:49
*** openstack changes topic to "API futures - specs (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:49
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alex_xuone item from mriedem12:50
alex_xumriedem: There are a few nova specs that propose to add paging support to some APIs which are dependent onhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/190743/ - so review on that as a priority would be helpful.12:50
alex_xuI guess just a note for need review12:50
alex_xuand I have no more at here12:51
johnthetubaguythere was talk of pushing forward the API WG proposals12:51
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: yea12:51
johnthetubaguytonyb suggested that, I think, on the ML12:51
johnthetubaguyseems like some of that has come back to life12:51
alex_xujohnthetubaguy: ok12:51
johnthetubaguyit would be great if we could get general paging agreement before we add our own custom stuff12:51
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sdagueyeh, I poked etoews about a couple of those, which is why this one and the error doc are moving forward12:52
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sdagueI have a todo on the error doc as I strongly believed we want links to the docs for the errors to be mandatory12:52
alex_xuok, api-wg guideline is merged too slow, if something depend on that, it bad news12:53
alex_xulet's jump to open12:53
alex_xu#topic open12:53
*** openstack changes topic to "open (Meeting topic: nova api)"12:53
alex_xumarkus_z: your turn12:53
markus_zalex_xu: cool, thanks, I make it quick12:54
markus_zIt would be great if some volunteers could have a look at the api related untriaged bugs12:54
markus_z#help https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.tag=api+&field.status%3Alist=NEW12:54
markus_zIf someone would step up to be the contact for such bugs in the future, please add your contact details in the wiki12:54
markus_z#help https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Nova/BugTriage#Step_2:_Triage_Tagged_Bugs12:54
alex_xumarkus_z: thanks for reminder12:54
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sdaguemarkus_z: yeh, good point. Honestly that's probably agend #5 for the meeting is untriaged bugs / and existing bugs12:55
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alex_xuany volunteers on triage api bug? if not, I will be the one12:56
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sdagueyeh, I'll go through those right after this meeting12:56
jichenI can help you on that12:56
alex_xujichen: thanks12:56
sdagueanyone else that's interested, we can chat about questions in #openstack-nova12:56
markus_zawesome, thanks a lot!12:57
jichenhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1516158  was opened by me , seems we don't have time to go through12:57
openstackLaunchpad bug 1516158 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "os-instance_usage_audit_log is used instead of os-instance-usage-audit-log" [Undecided,New] - Assigned to jichenjc (jichenjc)12:57
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alex_xulet me bring up this one quicly12:57
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sdaguealex_xu: yeh, I just approved it12:58
alex_xu^ I think we can remove those uselss retry header12:58
alex_xusdague: cool~12:58
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jichensdague: alex_xu thanks~12:58
sdaguethe retry header was really meant for API rate limit conditions12:58
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sdagueI don't know why someone applied it to quota fails12:58
johnthetubaguymakes sense, thanks12:58
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alex_xu1 mins left, if no more question, let's move to openstack-nova12:59
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sdagueyeh, thanks folks12:59
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jichenok, thanks12:59
alex_xuok, thanks all12:59
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oomichithanks :)12:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"12:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 17 12:59:38 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)12:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-11-17-12.00.html12:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-11-17-12.00.txt12:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2015/nova_api.2015-11-17-12.00.log.html12:59
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yanyanhu#startmeeting senlin13:04
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 17 13:04:17 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yanyanhu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:04
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:04
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:04
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:04
yanyanhuhi, guys13:04
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yanyanhuQiming, I have started the meeting, you can hold it now :)13:05
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Qiminggo ahead as the host, ;)13:05
yanyanhuso the agenda is here https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda13:06
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QimingI'm still having problems thinking clearly13:06
yanyanhutime difference?13:06
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yanyanhucurrently, one two items have been added to agenda, if you guys have something else want to discuss, plz feel free to add them13:06
Qimingyes, my body still confused what time is it13:07
yanyanhusigh... you need have a good sleep13:07
haiweiwhen will you be back13:07
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haiweito Beijing13:07
yanyanhu#topic update work status13:07
*** openstack changes topic to "update work status (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:07
Qimingleaving tomorrow13:07
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yanyanhuok, maybe lets update our on-going work first13:07
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tyagiprincelets start13:08
yanyanhuwho want to be the first one?13:08
elynnyou mean the BPs?13:08
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yanyanhuI think some TODO items have been claimed and related bps have been filed13:08
elynnok, I will start first13:08
yanyanhuso I belive you guys have started working on something :)13:08
jruanoi spent some time looking at monasca13:08
jruanolast week13:09
elynnI post 3 patches for lock breaker13:09
jruanomight put that on hold, as speaking to qiming last week, it is going to be low priority13:09
yanyanhuhi, ethan, maybe we can let jruano first :)13:09
yanyanhujruano, yes13:09
yanyanhuit's now given low priority13:10
jruanothere are some issues with the monasca api that are different than ceilometer, namely notification api13:10
Qimingthe priority is relatively low when compared to a generic receiver api13:10
yanyanhusince we are still not sure we should support trigger completely in senlin, @ Qiming13:10
jruanoand not really need it right now13:10
Qimingsome knowledge of monasca would actually help us shaping the api13:10
jruanoso i started to look at the webhook interface, and thinking of how to generalize it13:11
jruanoi will claim the receiver item13:11
jruanoand update todo13:11
yanyanhujruano, cool13:11
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jruanoso that's me. will dig into receiver generalization this week13:12
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haiweithe next elynn?13:12
yanyanhuI think the design of receiver is something we really need to take care about, maybe we can make thorough discussion on it before start coding :)13:13
jruanofor sure13:13
jruanoi will draw up the blueprint for discussion13:13
yanyanhujruano, thanks13:13
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elynnfor lock breaker, I post 3 patches to steal a lock from dead engine.13:14
yanyanhuelynn, your turn now :)13:14
yanyanhuyes, I saw it13:14
haiweiI have reviewed one13:14
elynnBut I don't know why db api for cluster/node lock doesn't require a context.13:15
haiweiseems good to me13:15
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elynnWhile other db_api always require context.13:15
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yanyanhulet me check it13:15
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Qimingelynn, there are two levels of locks13:16
yanyanhuhmm, that's true13:16
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Qimingfirst level is an action is claimed by an engine, where we don't have context, maybe we should?13:16
Qimingthe second level is an action claims the lock on a cluster/node13:17
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yanyanhuhi, Qiming, we give context when locking action http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/senlin/tree/senlin/db/sqlalchemy/api.py#n148113:17
elynnQiming:  I haven't notice that is there any lock that is claimed by engine.13:17
Qimingyes, that context contains a db session I think13:17
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yanyanhuelynn, the related code is in engine/actions/base.py now13:18
yanyanhubut we plan to move to engine/scheduler.py13:18
yanyanhuin this patch https://review.openstack.org/24402613:18
elynnSeems I need to take engine lock into consider.13:19
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yanyanhunow its here http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/senlin/tree/senlin/engine/actions/base.py#n48313:19
elynnI just handle cluster/node lock for now.13:19
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Qimingwhen breaking locks, we need to consider two things: actions locked by a 'dead' engine; clusters/nodes locked by those actions13:20
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elynnyes, will cover the first case in future codes. current codes only covers later case.13:21
haiweielynn, I think you are considering engine lock in this patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/243483/13:21
haiweithe owner is engine id13:22
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elynnhaiwei: yes, part of it, just aware the action is owner by the dead engine, but haven't clean it in db.13:22
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yanyanhuelynn, I think maybe we can temporarily ignore the lock stealing of action since it may depends on more action support like suspend, resume13:23
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Qimingyes, once we have a clear picture of the 2-level locks, problems is not that difficult to solve13:23
haiweiok, expect your patch later13:23
elynnyanyanhu: Qiming, so we also hold this BP for now?13:24
Qimingyanyanhu, why is that?13:24
QimingI'm not seeing a direct connection between action suspend/resume and lock breaker13:24
yanyanhuhi, Qiming I think if the lock of an action is slean by another engine, it means the new coming engine try to recover/resume this action13:25
Qimingmissed something?13:25
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yanyanhuwhich is currently being seized by an dead engine13:25
Qimingif the engine is dead, the actions previously held/locked by the engine need to be unlocked13:26
haiweiI think that should be a new action13:26
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yanyanhuQiming, yes, but if we don't consider action resume, that lock stealing will be easy to handle I think13:27
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elynnQiming: so after steal a lock from action, then this engine will continue to execute this action?13:27
haiweiyes, the previous action should go to ERROR, and the new action will get the lock13:27
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jruanoi now see why we need distributed lock management :)13:28
Qimingright, there are corner cases where an action was killed13:28
yanyanhuelynn, that is what we want to support in future13:28
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Qimingjruano, nod13:28
yanyanhujruano, yep :)13:28
Qimingelynn, continue execute an action sounds a little dangerous to me13:29
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elynnyanyanhu: hmm, then the scope of this BP is getting bigger then I thought.13:29
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yanyanhuelynn, I think you can just keep it in current status and focus on lock stealing of cluster/node13:29
elynnQiming: isn't that the action resume thing?13:29
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yanyanhumanagement of action lock will be another topic I believe13:30
elynnSo this BP just cover cluster/node lock stealing thing is ok?13:30
haiweimake a dead action relive?? seems cool, but..13:31
Qimingelynn, maybe we should go with haiwei's suggestion -- restart the action13:31
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yanyanhuhmm, but restarting an action without getting its current status is a little dangerous I think13:32
yanyanhue.g. some physical resources has been created, maybe we need to clean them before restart the action?13:33
QimingI'm not a big fan of lock stealing, to be honest13:33
yanyanhuQiming, me too actually13:33
elynnQiming: That should be done in lock breaker? I mean I can do it, but seems not very related to this BP.13:33
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yanyanhuit should be only used in some cases like engine die13:33
elynnyanyanhu: agree with you.13:33
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haiweiwhat about supporting lock breaker first?13:34
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Qimingyanyanhu, making action execution transactional, i.e. roll it back? sounds fancy, but I don't think it is feasible13:34
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yanyanhuhmm, that's true... at least in current stage13:34
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Qimingthe simplest approach could be just mark all actions locked by a 'dead' engine as failed13:35
yanyanhuso maybe we just set action to failed status if we found its owner died for some reasons?13:35
Qimingand remove locks on the cluster/nodes locked by that action13:35
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elynnyanyanhu: yes, that sounds easy to approach.13:36
haiweisupport this first, and see what we can do further13:36
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elynnAnd when to do that check?13:36
haiweiwhat check13:36
yanyanhuwhen next time you reach the action13:36
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elynnto check if the action owner by dead engine.13:37
yanyanhumaybe cuased by user's request13:37
yanyanhuor scheduling movement13:37
yanyanhue.g. user execute action-show13:37
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yanyanhuor a scheduler try to claim this action to run?13:37
elynnyanyanhu: yes , two way to do so, regularly or just trigger by other action.13:37
haiweiyes, when that is checked, it should be released auto, user should not know it13:37
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elynnIf add a scheduler to do so, might cause other problems in multi-engine env.13:39
elynnlike race condition.13:39
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elynnI would prefer to set dead actions to failed when some certain other actions need to lock the cluster/node?13:40
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elynnwhat do you think?13:40
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Qimingmy previous thought was a scavenger daemon, which will clean the mess left by dead engines, remove old actions and events from db, so on and so forth13:40
yanyanhuand then found the engine who is working on the owner action of cluster/node has dead?13:41
elynnQiming: That means another service?13:41
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elynnQiming: or running in senlin-engine?13:41
Qimingbut it sounds a bit complicated, there will be another lock...13:41
Qimingelynn, running in senlin-engine was the idea13:41
yanyanhuQiming, I think this is good, but still not very clear how to implement it13:42
elynnQiming: yes, that might introduce other lock for this service.13:42
yanyanhuso before we have it, maybe just do passitive lock breaking?13:42
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elynnSince we can only let one service cleaning current db at one time.13:42
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Qimingyes, that is where we may need a "single" coordinator thing, or a good dlm solution13:43
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haiweiwhat about doing like this? when some action need to steal the lock, it find the dead engine first, and then clean the dead action, and then steal the lock13:43
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yanyanhuhaiwei, this is what I mean by 'passitive' :)13:44
elynnhaiwei: sounds good to me.13:44
Qimingbut anyway, we can start with some basic primitives that will do engine aliveness checking, action unlocking13:44
elynnyanyanhu: seems we all mean that ;)13:44
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Qimingpassive you mean, :)13:44
yanyanhuoh, right13:45
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yanyanhuok, if we are clear about this issue, lets move on?13:45
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haiweithe next is?13:46
yanyanhuhaiwei, your turn now?13:46
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haiweiI assigned this https://blueprints.launchpad.net/senlin/+spec/http-response-modification13:46
haiweinot started yet, just thinking about it13:47
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yanyanhuit's about API refactor13:47
haiweiit seems I need to modify quite a lot in senlin/common/wsgi.py13:47
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yanyanhuhope it can make our API stable and more consistent with the guide from API-WG13:48
yanyanhuhaiwei, just feel free to propose the patch :)13:48
haiweireturn 202 is not difficult, we still need to add url of the resource in response body??13:48
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yanyanhuyes, I guess so13:49
Qiminghaiwei, yes, in response header13:49
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haiweiin header not body?13:49
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Qimingcheck the api-wg guideline13:49
haiweiI investigated other projects, they are storing url in body13:49
Qimingread this again: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/api-wg/tree/guidelines/http.rst#n10513:50
haiweiI have read the guideline, maybe it is not meaning to store them in header, english is a little difficult13:50
Qiming"* Must return a Location header set to one of the following:"13:50
haiweithe a Location header is response header??13:51
Qimingwhat else could 'header' mean then?13:51
Qimingmaybe it was a misunderstanding13:51
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Qimingpls check with the author13:52
Qimingcannot recall his name/ircnic13:52
haiweiok, I will do it13:52
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yanyanhuthanks, haiwei13:53
QimingMiguel Grinberg13:53
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yanyanhuok, my turn I guess13:53
yanyanhujust quick update my work13:53
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yanyanhuI started working on senlin scheduler to make it support initiative action scheduling13:54
yanyanhucurrently, scheduler is not a real 'scheduler' since it will only schedule the action given to it by dispatcher13:54
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yanyanhuwe hope to make it smarter and behave more like a 'scheduler'13:55
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yanyanhuso the first step is to add the ability to choose a random ready action to schedule13:55
yanyanhupatch is here13:55
Qimingdon't be too smart, just some basic 'scheduling' would suffice, :)13:55
yanyanhuQiming, yep :)13:56
Qimingwill jump onto that13:56
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yanyanhumany thanks13:56
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yanyanhuok, time is almost over13:56
yanyanhu#topic open discussion13:56
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yanyanhuanything else want to discuss13:57
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elynnnot from me :)13:57
jruano_i am out on vacation next week. thanksgiving for us in the usa13:57
yanyanhuI guess we need to postpone the topic of rechecking existing bps to next meeting13:57
yanyanhujruano_, have a good vacation :)13:57
Qimingjruano_, best wishes, :)13:57
haiweihope you can have time to review this https://review.openstack.org/#/c/238753/13:57
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Qimingyanyanhu, fine13:57
elynnjruano_: Have a nice vacation ;)13:57
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haiweiit's there for quite a long time13:57
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yanyanhuyes, we need some dicussion about this issue13:58
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Qiminghaiwei, okay13:58
haiweithat all from me13:58
yanyanhuok, so I guess that's all for this meeting?13:58
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yanyanhuok, thanks you guys for joining, have a good night/day :)13:59
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* regXboi wanders in and looks at the clock13:59
elynnthank you!13:59
yanyanhubye, lets move back to senlin channel13:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 17 13:59:40 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-11-17-13.04.html13:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-11-17-13.04.txt13:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-11-17-13.04.log.html13:59
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* regXboi is here but will be distracted for first 10-15 minutes14:00
armax#startmeeting networking14:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 17 14:00:14 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is armax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking'14:00
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armaxhi folks14:01
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mesteryGood morning armax!14:01
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ajoo/ :)14:01
garyk1mestery: is that a wake up call?14:01
armax#topic Announcements14:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)"14:02
regXboiWAKE UP14:02
mesterygaryk1: I think armax needs one.14:02
regXboi^^^^^^^ that is a wake up call14:02
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armaxI do14:02
* mestery hands armax espresso14:02
ajogood morning :-)14:02
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garyk1he should be triaging bugs and not sleeping14:02
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* xgerman wonders who cam up with this 6 am time slot14:02
armax#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings14:02
regXboixgerman: blame daylight savings time14:03
armax#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings#Announcements_.2F_Reminders14:03
armaxa couple of things worth sharing14:03
jschwarzxgerman, it's 16:00 here in Europe.. this meeting is for us as well as you American guys ;-)14:03
garyk1xgerman: you can always read the logs and send a mail to the list if there are issues that trouble you14:03
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regXboisalv-orlando: gcc: not found14:03
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ajolol regXboi salv-orlando14:04
* armax gives people time to go through the reminders while he snoozes a bit14:04
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akamyshnikovahi! sorry being late14:04
amotokijust announcement of sharing neutron meetup photos in Tokyo https://goo.gl/photos/HHTwgCSXoPuG5iqt514:04
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ajothanks for the reminders armax14:04
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hichiharaamotoki: Nice! :)14:05
armaxit’s worth noting the creation of the assert tags14:05
armaxmestery: can tell us more, since he’s the TC dude14:05
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armaxI can’t see markmclain14:05
armaxmarkmcclain: ping?14:05
mesteryarmax: Which tags did you have qusetions about?14:05
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mesteryarmax: For the upgrade tags, we don't qualify for rolling-upgrade yet14:06
mesteryBut supports upgrade we can define14:06
armaxmestery: right14:06
mesteryBEcause we clearly support upgrades14:06
ajoamotoki : oh guys you had fun :')14:06
mesteryI'll propose a patch for that today14:06
armaxmestery: and I did: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/246242/14:06
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mesteryarmax: You beat me to it14:06
armaxmestery: of course14:06
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mesteryarmax: I hadn't reviewed governance patches yet today14:06
armaxthat said, the rolling upgrade is technically not htat far off14:06
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armaxmy wishful thinking is that garyk and sc68cal_ are gonna help with the partial grenade upgrade14:07
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* regXboi wonders if it's time to rename grenade14:07
garyk1armax: the coming week i am going to be on the bugs14:07
armaxthere has been a thread going on lately14:07
armax#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/079344.html14:08
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armaxgaryk1: multitasking? :)14:08
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ajogaryk1: I can keep helping a bit in bg :), we need a deputy volunteer for the week after14:09
korzenthe patch introducing the multinode grenade for neutron: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/24586214:09
armaxanyhow, it sounds like we could easily grasp the rolling-upgrade tag if we pull ourselves together and manage to have CI for the grenade partial job14:09
garyk1i will be in touch with sc68cal_ and go from there14:09
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armaxkorzen: thanks for the link!14:09
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regXboiunfortunately, multinode jobs still look ill14:10
armaxregXboi: true, but that shouldn’t stop us from making progress14:10
kevinbentonregXboi: is 'ill' a hip word for 'cool'?14:10
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kevinbentonAs in, 'bro, check out this ill job'14:11
regXboino, in this case "ill" == "still appear to be at 100% error rate"14:11
armaxas for other reminders, there have been a couple of suggested improvements to the way we handle blueprints14:11
armaxand rfe's14:11
armaxfull process detailed on:14:11
armax#link http://docs.openstack.org/developer/neutron/policies/blueprints.html14:11
armaxregXboi: do we have a culprit?14:12
regXboiarmax: there was yesterday - I'm looking to see if it still exists14:12
hichiharaWho tries to fix multinode job issue?14:12
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regXboiok, I *think* that the code to fix merged in the last hour - I'll keep an eye on it14:13
armaxregXboi: link?14:14
armaxregXboi: it looks like both multi-jobs broke14:14
regXboiarmax: all the multinode jobs broke - getting the links from eavesdrop now14:14
armaxregXboi: ok thanks14:14
obondarevarmax: yeah, both for the same reason: live migration test14:15
garyk1regXboi: http://logs.openstack.org/18/245518/5/check/gate-tempest-dsvm-neutron-multinode-full/5a3c901/logs/testr_results.html.gz (live migration test)14:15
armaxobondarev: looks like that’s a tempest issue14:15
garyk1why do we need livemigration for neutron jobs?14:15
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obondarevgaryk1: it's a part of full tempest suite I guess14:16
armaxgaryk1: why do we need to test neutron at all?14:16
garyk1it is something that is usually broken at the best of times in nova14:16
armaxgaryk1: even in the nova net case you mean?14:16
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garyk1armax: why the cynicism?14:16
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ajorecently I found a live migration issue in nova14:17
armaxgaryk1: I was making a joke14:17
garyk1armax: yes, there is even a working group setup to address live migrations14:17
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regXboiok patch that broke multinode: https://review.openstack.org/24599614:17
ajothey don't wait on port notifications from neutron, before bringing up the VM at destination14:17
ajothat only shows up in mutlinode14:17
regXboipatch that fixed multinode: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/233711/14:17
ajoVM is resumed before network is wired, RARP messages get blackholed, so the nodes don't know where the MAC address belongs to14:17
armaxregXboi: how can 245996 break multi node?14:17
armaxregXboi: you sure it’s the right link14:18
regXboino it isn't14:18
kevinbentonajo: any reason why it hadn't been fixed?14:18
regXboi233711 broke multinode14:18
obondarevajo: related https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1414559 ?14:18
openstackLaunchpad bug 1414559 in neutron "OVS drops RARP packets by QEMU upon live-migration - VM temporarily disconnected" [Undecided,Invalid] - Assigned to sean mooney (sean-k-mooney)14:18
regXboihttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/245697/ supposedly fixed it14:18
ajoobondarev : exactly14:18
obondarevajo: I'm currently working on https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/141455914:18
ajothanks, it's that one14:18
obondarevajo: have patches for nova and neutron, testing14:19
ajoobondarev , but as I saw, it was more a nova thing, because they start the VM before network is wired14:19
regXboiamuller and I discussed this yesterday in channel: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-neutron/%23openstack-neutron.2015-11-16.log.html#t2015-11-16T21:42:1014:19
ajothey should use notification14:19
ajothat's likely to be the culprit of live migration failures14:19
armaxok, it looks like we have a handle on this then14:19
ajoI investigated that for 1 week..14:19
armaxbut the failure I observed14:19
armaxthat garyk1 shared14:19
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armaxwas related to a setup issue14:19
armaxnothing to do with the dataplane14:19
obondarevajo: neutron should send notification in the first, we can take it offline to not wast meeting time14:19
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ajoobondarev: ack14:20
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armaxajo, obondarev: even though the change you’re referring to may be addressing some other instability14:20
salv-orlandoajo: I seem to recall that upon certain events nova does not wait for a notification from neutron before restaring the VM14:20
armaxsalv-orlando: how rude14:20
ajoarmax : ack14:20
salv-orlandothe logic is buried deep in the compute manager so it's not easy to grasp14:21
salv-orlandobut this was over a year ago, maybe in the meanwhile things have changed14:21
ajoyes, this was a race condition by nova not honoring the notification, does not happen 100% of the time.14:21
salv-orlandoajo: which might be consistent with nova ignoring the notification and therefore things being racey14:21
armaxok, so someone maybe be interested in going to the nova mid-cycle meetup and yell at the nova people? the event is scheduled for  Jan 26 201614:21
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armaxdetails here:14:22
armax#link https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/openstack-mitaka-nova-mid-cycle-meetup-tickets-1932622425714:22
kevinbentonI can't get  :'(14:22
mesteryIt's in London, right armax?14:22
armaxmestery: bristol14:22
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armaxthat was the last of the reminders14:22
ajoI think rdopiera from redhat was looking at it,14:22
armaxlet’s move on to the next section14:22
salv-orlandoarmax: I think some discussion in IRC and a bug report will lead to a patch and a fix14:22
ajobut I could eventually try to speedup it, or help14:22
salv-orlandono need to put yourself on a plane ;)14:22
ajospecially if it's hurting our jobs, but it seems obondarev had already a good look on the issue14:23
armaxsalv-orlando: I know, I found that lack of sleeps makes me particular prone to making jokes14:23
armax#topic Blueprints14:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: networking)"14:23
armax#link https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/mitaka-114:23
salv-orlandoarmax: this is because I have poured scotch in your nespresso capsules14:23
garyk1sorry to barge in but this may be what happens with the live migrate - https://github.com/openstack/nova/commit/150406679c14778f0479bc6d4e77df5119c0bdae14:24
armaxsalv-orlando: all makes sense now!14:24
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armaxobondarev: just filed https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/improve-dvr-l3-agent-binding14:24
obondarevarmax: right, it's for already approved spec14:25
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obondarevarmax: bp was missing I guess14:25
armaxobondarev: technically something was something dangling from past days14:25
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armaxobondarev: we need an approver14:25
obondarevarmax: I think carl_baldwin is the right person14:26
armaxI can’t be one, I am already approver on a bunch of other bp’s and I won’t be able to help you with reviews and stuf f as much14:26
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obondarevarmax: k, changing to carl_baldwin14:26
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armaxcarl_baldwin: do you have fire power?14:26
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carl_baldwinYes, I can take this14:27
obondarevcarl_baldwin: thanks14:27
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pc_marmax: The multipel subnets to connect to vpn commits are all in (though it says needs code-review)14:27
shihanzhangthis one https://review.openstack.org/#/c/196959/ was missed14:27
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amotokipc_m: I should update the status of yours.14:28
garyk1shihanzhang: any reason why the norifictaion do not suffice?14:29
armaxanyone wants to raise flags over the progress of any of the blueprints targeted for M1?14:29
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pc_marmax: I'll help part-time on splitting neutron into base library14:30
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pc_m(already talking to dougwig14:30
armaxpc_m: thanks14:30
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garyk1armax: i would like to know from other what they think of the timestamp bp?14:30
mesterypc_m: Any progress there?14:30
mesteryBecause that one doesn't look like it's making a ton of progress according to LP at least14:30
mesterypc_m: Regarding https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/neutron-lib14:30
pc_mDoug and I have some protoypes, but need to get test working.14:30
armaxgaryk1: faik, that must be resubmitted for mitaka, but that aside, there’s a change from kevinbenton that will help add this type of info to neutron resources14:31
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armaxand it’s a requirement to timestamps, tags and the likes14:31
garyk1armax: ok, thanks14:31
garyk1that makes more sense that it be something generic14:31
garyk1fyo - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/add-port-timestamp14:31
armaxthat said, we currently have 21 blueprints targeting ‘neutron’ for M114:32
garyk1kevinbenton: can you please send a link to the work if possible14:32
wwriverratarmax: requesting for direction from this group: Was looking for your guidance on how to proceed with "Add API extension for reporting IP address usage statistics": https://review.openstack.org/#/c/212955/14:32
armaxgaryk1: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/222079/14:32
xgermanarmax is flavor among them?14:33
armaxxgerman: yes14:33
shihanzhanggaryk1, this is the link https://review.openstack.org/22207914:33
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armaxwe had 28 blueprints targeted for the whole of Liberty14:33
armaxright now I am targeting everything for the first release14:33
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armaxand will let stuff spill over as events unfold14:34
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armaxbottom line: I am thinking that once we reached the 30-ish mark. We’re most likely shut for business for the Mitaka timeframe14:34
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armaxI can’t think how we can take much more work than that14:35
xgermanred bull?14:35
anteayahave you seen what it does to your heart?14:35
salv-orlando30-ish makes sense14:35
armaxthe drivers team will still continue to review regularly14:36
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armaxrfe’s and specs14:36
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armaxbut we need to have a reasonable expectation of how much we can chew in a single release14:37
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armaxanyhow, I think I am probably stating the obvious14:38
armaxnext up14:38
armax#topic Bugs14:38
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armaxajo: you up14:38
armaxbugs keep piling up14:38
ajohi, sorry, I ad an interruption14:38
ajoI think garyk1 and I have a list14:38
garyk1a lot of the bugs opened recently are lbaas specific14:38
armaxit looks like we had ~70 reports only during last week14:38
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ajoyeah, I found this one concerning: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1513765 shihanzhang is working on it and needs some review14:39
openstackLaunchpad bug 1513765 in neutron "bulk delete of ports cost iptables-firewall too much time" [High,In progress] - Assigned to shihanzhang (shihanzhang)14:39
garyk1should those be in the neutron bugs or should we create a lbaas launchpad? just an idea? it will help focus more on the core bugs14:39
ajoit's due conntrack manipulation.14:39
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ajoI'm concerned the fix is not backportable, and I'd love if we could have amotoki's eyes on the patch14:39
armaxgaryk1: advs services and neutron are tracked by the same lp14:39
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armaxgaryk1: we use tags to differentiate14:40
garyk1armax: i understand the tags, but i think that maybe we should consider splitting them out.14:40
xgermanyep, and octavia has it’s own tag14:40
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garyk1that would give a truer picture14:40
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garyk1but sorry, back to the bugs14:40
wwriverratRegarding GoDaddy/Rax api extension for "IP usage" we plan to re-introduce into m-release: How would you like us to proceed?  RFE->code? RFE->Spec->code? Re: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/180803/14:40
wwriverratPatch exists here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/212955/14:41
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ajothis one needs lbaas eyes on it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1163569  it's been hanging there since 2013, not urgent btw, just needs some re-triage.14:42
openstackLaunchpad bug 1163569 in neutron "security groups don't work with LBaaS vip and ovs plugin" [High,New] - Assigned to Doug Wiegley (dougwig)14:42
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armaxwwriverrat: I think we have an rfe for that, possibly raised by someone else14:42
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openstackLaunchpad bug 1457986 in neutron "RFE: Need API to provide network IP allocation counts" [Wishlist,In progress] - Assigned to David Bingham (wwriverrat)14:43
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armaxwwriverrat: let me look into that14:43
ajoenikanorov : could you update about: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1453008  ?14:43
openstackLaunchpad bug 1453008 in neutron "Deadlock on update_port_status" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Eugene Nikanorov (enikanorov)14:43
wwriverratarmax: My question is around how to proceed. Will do as little or as much as you see fit.14:44
armaxwwriverrat: at one point I saw to competing proposals14:44
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armaxwwriverrat: I don’t have a clear picture right now…I need to go back and look before I can advise you further14:45
armaxgoing back to bugs...14:45
wwriverratthanks. I’ll try to pull up that other proposal14:45
armaxajo: anything else worth raising?14:45
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armaxany gate failure worth noting?14:45
armaxwe have a massive stroke last week14:46
openstackLaunchpad bug 1513782 in neutron "API response time degradation" [High,New]14:46
armaxas someone might recall14:46
ajothis one is important I think14:46
ajowe had some important performance degradation14:46
armaxkevinbenton seems to have volunteered on 151378214:47
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armaxI wonder if that falls on the larger performance effort that regXboi is leading?14:47
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regXboiarmax: that is on the list *eventually*14:47
salv-orl_it must be because he caused it with some clumsy db op he added ;)14:47
ajoarmax , I think you guys handled gate failures faster than my wake up time, everytime I was up things were handled14:47
* regXboi just tagged 1513782 as loadimpact14:47
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armaxI already did ;)14:48
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armaxajo: anything else?14:48
armaxthe torch is with garyk1 this week14:49
armaxany volunteer for next week?14:49
rossella_sarmax, me!14:49
ajoI think garyk1 spotted a couple of bugs, garyk1 , did I name all?14:49
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armaxrossella_s: super14:49
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wwriverratarmax: Ref “competing proposal”: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/234541/ targeting our RFE: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/145798614:49
openstackLaunchpad bug 1457986 in neutron "RFE: Need API to provide network IP allocation counts" [Wishlist,In progress] - Assigned to David Bingham (wwriverrat)14:49
armaxwwriverrat: can we take this offline, please?14:49
garyk1armax: ack.14:49
armaxwwriverrat: it feels like you’re simply hijacking the meeting14:50
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ajoarmax : I think we're done with the important ones I'm aware of14:50
armaxajo: ok, cool14:50
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regXboiwow - where does the time go14:50
armaxregXboi: indeed14:51
ajosorry: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1514810  (noted by garyk1 )14:51
openstackLaunchpad bug 1514810 in neutron "Turning on 'enable_dhcp' on subnet update cause request failure for pluggable IPAM" [Medium,New] - Assigned to Pavel Bondar (pasha117)14:51
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ajobut I think carl_baldwin  is already on top of it14:51
armaxajo: right, the assigned ones are not the ones that worry me14:51
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armaxemagana is not here so le’ts skip the docs section and go straight to the open discussion one14:52
armax#topic Open Discussion14:52
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking)"14:52
armaxthere are two topics of which one seems already handled14:52
openstackLaunchpad bug 1507776 in neutron "Wrong OVS flows created for new networks" [High,Fix committed] - Assigned to YAMAMOTO Takashi (yamamoto)14:53
armaxclaudiub: ping?14:53
armaxyou raised this for the neutron meeting?14:53
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armaxwhat’s there to be discussed?14:53
claudiubthat was weeks ago.14:53
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claudiubbefore the summit, i think.14:54
armaxoh, ack14:54
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armaxit’s left over then?14:54
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claudiubsorry, I did not get that14:54
armaxclaudiub: never mind14:54
armaxclaudiub: thanks14:54
claudiubnp. :)14:54
amotokiit seems we need to change the title to "On Demand Agenda for <date>".14:54
ajoyamamoto++ claudiub++14:54
xgermanamotoki +114:55
armaxamotoki: I’ll fix that14:55
armaxbtw the other, I am sure more current one, was the request to consider the flavors service plugin be enabled by default14:55
armaxso that we can test it in the gate on a continuous basis14:56
ajoarmax , I had a talk with the nova PTL about port flavors, he asked me to sync with you on this.14:56
ajohe found it interesting in regards making nova-scheduler aware of neutron stuff14:56
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armaxajo: I talked to him about last week14:57
ajoits a long TL;DR to topic, so I'll probably translate it into an RFE, but he asked me to sync with you14:57
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ajo" long TL;DR to topic" .... wow ':D14:57
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ajoI guess we can sync offline14:58
xgermanok, so can we reach a consensus if flavors should be enabled by default or not?14:58
armaxajo: let’s take this offline, but the idea is worth exploring especially if that helps addressing a large set of use cases that involve unstructured port bindings14:58
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ajo(sorry for deviating the topic)14:58
armaxxgerman: yes14:58
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armaxanyone with an opinion?14:59
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armaxwe have 1 min left?14:59
openstackOnly the meeting chair may start a vote.14:59
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armaxwe should take that to the ML, I guess14:59
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armaxI’ll end the meeting now and give you a few secs back15:00
ajoI see no reason for not enabling flavors by default15:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 17 15:00:06 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-11-17-14.00.html15:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-11-17-14.00.txt15:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-11-17-14.00.log.html15:00
yamamotogood night15:00
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ajogn yamamoto  ;)15:00
amullerNow I know I'm 1 hour late15:00
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armax#startmeeting neutron_drivers15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 17 15:00:40 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is armax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
mesteryamuller: lol :)15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_drivers)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers'15:00
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armaxmestery, amotoki, kevinbenton, carl_baldwin, HenryG ping?15:00
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* mestery waves at armax 15:01
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amullermight as well stay and lurk :)15:02
* ajo lurks15:02
armaxamuller: indeed15:02
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* regXboi lurks as well15:02
* regXboi asks amuller where the lurking corner is15:02
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amullerregXboi: on your left behind the water cool15:02
armaxwe finished last week with bug #151314415:03
openstackbug 1513144 in neutron "Allow admin to mark agents down" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1513144 - Assigned to Carlos Goncalves (cgoncalves)15:03
armaxthe submitter never came back15:03
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armaxI am saying let’s mark this incomplete and move on15:03
amotokiah.. I forgot to comment more.15:03
amotokiwill follow up it after the meeting.15:03
mesteryarmax: ++15:04
amotokimarking this incomplete now sounds reasonable to me.15:04
armaxbug 147270415:05
openstackbug 1472704 in neutron "Support L3-only networking" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472704 - Assigned to Neil Jerram (neil-jerram)15:05
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armaxcarl_baldwin: I am assuming the matching spec is the one you’re proposing, right?15:05
armaxor no?15:05
carl_baldwinarmax: That is Neil's but we're working to unify.15:06
* regXboi goes to get a snack and some cold caffeine15:06
armaxcarl_baldwin: so it should match this one, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/routed-networks15:06
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* carl_baldwin looks for the other rfe.15:06
garyk1sorry i need to run15:06
mesterybye garyk115:06
armaxcarl_baldwin: the other one was ‘segments’15:06
armaxcarl_baldwin: I think15:07
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carl_baldwinarmax: It all started here:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/145889015:07
openstackLaunchpad bug 1458890 in neutron "Add segment support to Neutron" [Wishlist,Triaged]15:07
carl_baldwinMy spec is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/22538415:08
carl_baldwinTrying to unify mine with the one from neiljerram_bb15:08
carl_baldwinI will look for him today and hopefully get some updates to get them in line.15:09
armaxcarl_baldwin: any progress on the one from neil?15:09
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armaxcarl_baldwin: I’d rather track everything with one bug report/spec if at all possible15:09
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armaxcarl_baldwin: unless the use cases are totally different15:09
armaxI’ll follow up on this one15:10
carl_baldwinarmax: ack  That is where we were headed.15:10
cgoncalvesHi. on bug 1513144, apologies but I still need to catch-up on the comments yet. apologies15:10
openstackbug 1513144 in neutron "Allow admin to mark agents down" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/151314415:10
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armaxcgoncalves: please do15:10
armaxand we’ll get back to you15:10
armaxbug 151266615:10
openstackbug 1512666 in neutron " Allow for per-subnet/network dhcp options" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1512666 - Assigned to Sam Betts (sambetts)15:10
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cgoncalvesarmax: thanks. it's been a crazy week last week :/15:11
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armaxcgoncalves: for everybody, I can assure oyu15:11
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armaxbug #1512666 seems trivial enough15:11
armaxcarl_baldwin, ajo: do you happen to know if dnsmasq provides what we need?15:12
carl_baldwinarmax: I can't say without looking through dnsmasq docs.15:12
* ajo reads, was in deep talk with obondarev about migrations15:12
amotoki_one question is how we can distinguish a port which we need to apply the default dhcp options.15:13
ajoarmax , carl_baldwin , I will look at the dnsmasq config options too15:13
armaxamotoki_: I thought that port options take precedence15:13
ajoI Can't recall something like that, but I don't know it all15:13
ajo(about dnsmasq)15:13
amotoki_extra_dhcp_opts is mainly used for ironic ports but not all ports are such ports.15:13
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amotokibut as RFE it is a reasonable request.15:14
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armaxamotoki: agreed15:14
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armaxamotoki: I wonder who could help to work on that15:15
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amotokii can. I know ironic use cases and supported the inital extra dhcp opts work.15:15
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amotokiI am not hosting any blueprints.15:16
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ajoarmax , I think dnsmasq provides what they're looking for, because they're already using dnsmasq15:16
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armaxamotoki: cool15:17
ajoit worries me how would we handle the allocation of new ips for unknown macs15:17
ajocarl_baldwin , any thought on that?15:18
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armaxajo: agreed15:18
carl_baldwinajo It was my concern too but I haven't groked it enough to have further thoughts.15:18
ajoneither me,15:18
armaxit sounds like we may want a spec for this, as there might be implicit assumptions that we’re overlooking here15:18
armaxwe don’t want to start assigning dhcp addresses all over the place15:19
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ajothat could even mean, we may need to autodiscover new ports15:19
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ajobetter to have a spec, I agree15:20
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armaxok, I’ll take care of it15:20
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armaxnext one15:20
armaxbug #149271415:20
openstackbug 1492714 in neutron "RFE: Pure Python driven Linux network configuration" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1492714 - Assigned to Li Ma (nick-ma-z)15:20
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mesteryarmax: I think that one is dependent on the privsep work15:20
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mesteryAnd I know regXboi was looking to track that work which gus is doing15:21
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regXboiyes, this is dependent on privsep15:21
armaxright, it sounds like we all want this to happen15:21
* regXboi looking where that is right now15:21
armaxbut what it takes, I am not 100% sure15:21
HenryGAt the summit gus said he would soon be proposing patches to neutron15:21
HenryGHe said the oslo part is done (I think)15:22
mesteryHenryG: Wow, that's pretty awesome if it's done.15:22
salv-orl_I don't think privsep is low-effort, but its development is probably mostly orthogonal. From what I gather it should not break anything...15:22
salv-orl_...until it's plugged in of course!15:22
regXboiyes: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/238333/ merged last week15:22
mesterysalv-orl_: lol :)15:22
regXboicurrent privsep patch is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/244984/15:23
ajoI heard of a similar proposal which could be interesting15:23
ajoI think it was apuimedon's15:23
ajomoving the agents into the networking cgroup15:23
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anteayawell gus' work is also critical to nova, so if someone were to help his efforts I don't think he would say no15:23
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ajoso they have access to all networking related functions as-root15:23
mesteryajo: With privsep, is that necessary still?15:24
ajomestery I guess it's an alternative to privsep15:24
ajoor a separated thread can be moved into the cgroup15:24
ajoit's an alternative15:24
mesteryajo: Right15:24
regXboiis it an alternative in oslo?15:24
regXboior is it project specific15:24
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ajoI think, it's something privsep is going to leverage :)15:25
ajosorry for the noise15:25
mesteryajo: No noise, it's good to hear these other approaches too.15:25
mesteryajo: Maybe it's worth commenting in the bug about this and adding apuimedon to it as well?15:26
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salv-orl_ajo: your punishment would be to contribute the work for assigning operations to cgroups rahter than run everything as root in oslo.privsep15:26
ajomestery : yes, doing15:26
mesterysweet, thanks ajo15:26
ajosalv-orl_ : lol :) I Will pass the punishment to apuimedon :D15:26
ajobut I'd be glad to help15:26
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salv-orl_ajo: we're not in the army. if we were the army that would be the way to go15:27
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regXboiI see 1492714 as another step along the way to getting rid of shell15:28
armaxeither way it sounds like this might be tricky to tackle in the mitaka timeframe15:28
regXboiwhich is a Good Thing (TM) imho15:28
regXboiarmax: ++15:28
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armaxok, let’s move next, I’ll capture details on this conversation later15:30
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armaxbug #151286415:31
openstackbug 1512864 in neutron "Application Metrics for Neutron" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/151286415:31
regXboiarmax: this needs to go to oslo15:31
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mesteryregXboi: That was easy :)15:31
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armaxyou mean bug 1512864?15:32
regXboiarmax: yes15:32
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regXboithat should be done across all of openstack, not just neutron15:32
mesteryregXboi: I suggest adding oslo to the affected projects then15:32
ajoIMO, we better integrate with osprofiler first15:32
regXboimestery: agreed15:32
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ajoit does not cover continous profiling as they suggest, btw..15:32
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armaxregXboi: ok, that makes sense15:33
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ajoyeah, and if we introduce profiling to openstack services, better to have something homogenous across services15:33
regXboiajo: yes that is something osprofiling needs15:33
ajothat's a good point regXboi15:33
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armaxand we could easily pull in stuff from oslo as it matures15:33
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regXboiarmax: you want to change the bug or should I?15:33
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salv-orl_ajo: do we need to integrate with osprofiler? I usually just apply patches when I need to take measures and then collect data, I've honestly not yet seen a project with profiling in-tree15:33
armaxregXboi: change how? target oslo you mean?15:34
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regXboiarmax: target oslo and s/neutron/openstack/ in the title15:34
ajosalv-orl_ , I found it very interesting to debug RPC and flows between projects15:34
armaxregXboi: well15:34
armaxregXboi: the problem is:15:34
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regXboisalv-orl_: you *HAVE* to have profiling in tree if you are going to do ci/cd on performance15:34
salv-orl_is "target oslo" needed because "all projects need it so there must be something for oslo too?"15:34
armaxregXboi: is the submitter even willing to work with oslo?15:34
ajosalv-orl_ : good for profiling and reverse engineering for openstack newbiews (or outdated-oldbies..)15:34
armaxit may remain targeted and idle for ever15:35
regXboiarmax: the submitter is one of my co-workers - I can have a discussion with them to find out15:35
armaxregXboi: ok, let’s find out first also where the oslo project is at15:35
salv-orl_regXboi: as long as you can give me a way to skip execution of profiling code that's fine.15:35
regXboisalv-orl_: ++++++++15:35
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ajosalv-orl_ : +10015:35
armaxregXboi: it’d be tempted that we can simply say: this doesn’t belong to neutron and as such it’s ‘won’t fix’ in the current form15:36
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armaxregXboi: let’s capture the details of this conversation and we’ll take it from there15:36
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regXboiarmax: let me try to reach out today and have a conversation - there is a TZ differential and I'm driving up mestery's way in the afternoon/evening so that's best15:37
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armaxregXboi: ok, no worries15:37
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armaxdoes anyone fancy start going through the ‘confirmed’ list or shall we call it done, we’ll have a first pass offline and reconvene in a week?15:38
mesteryMy vote: Offline and reconvene in a week15:38
armaxok, let’s make sure that we have a good triaged pipeline then15:38
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regXboiwhat about the new list?15:38
armaxI count on all of you15:38
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armaxregXboi: we’ll have a pass too15:39
mesteryWe won't let you down armax15:39
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armaxmestery: I am sure15:39
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mesteryarmax: Thanks for waking up early to run these back-to-back meetings, we all appreciate yoru leadership!15:39
armaxok, let’s go back at pounding on the keyboards15:40
armaxmestery: thanks for the encouragement but I am regretting this already :)15:40
armaxhave a good tuesday everbody15:40
regXboiarmax: you can always move the meeting :)15:40
mestery++, thanks armax, you have a good day too!15:40
armaxor wednesday wherever you are15:40
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:41
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 17 15:40:59 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:41
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-11-17-15.00.html15:41
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-11-17-15.00.txt15:41
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-11-17-15.00.log.html15:41
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IlyaGHi guys - do you know the deadline for the 3rd party Cinder drives to be merged into Mitaka?16:13
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breitzIlyaG:  you probably wanted to ask this in #openstack-cinder.  ;-)16:24
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stevemar_courtesy ping for ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, claudiub, rderose, samleon, xek17:59
davechen\o again17:59
ayoung\me here18:00
lbragstadstevemar_ o/18:00
* ayoung here18:00
marekdme here18:00
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stevemar_let's get going!18:00
stevemar_#startmeeting keystone18:00
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openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 17 18:00:34 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:00
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stevemar_#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:00
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* shaleh waves18:01
stevemar_henrynash: you had to put the biggest item as #118:01
stevemar_#topic HMT Phase 1 & Phase 218:01
*** openstack changes topic to "HMT Phase 1 & Phase 2 (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
stevemar_henrynash: go!18:01
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henrynashok, so this is a follow on from the discussion at the summit18:01
henrynashwe agreed Phase 118:01
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henrynash(store domains as projects, bt only top level domains)18:01
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henrynashPhase 2 is the actual resller functionality18:02
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ayoungSo long as domain names are globally unique, it does not mattewhere they are in the tree18:02
henrynashrequest from Morgan was….go see if we can make federation cover this use case18:02
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henrynashand as per my mail to the list (http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-October/078063.html)18:02
henrynash…this doesn’t really cut it18:03
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henrynashso proposal is (as ayoung just stated)18:03
stevemar_hmm, morgan seems to be afk18:03
ayoungI still think the uniqueness thing is going to be an issue18:03
marekdhenrynash: how long will Phase 1 take?18:03
htrutamarekd: what do you mean by long?18:04
henrynashso we ahd all the code for that ready for Liberty18:04
marekdhtruta: days, months18:04
marekdayoung: domains unique globally?18:04
gyeemarekd, 21 story points18:04
amakarovhey all!18:04
htrutamarekd: it is already implemented. how long it takes depend on reviews18:04
henrynashand is ready for review now….it;s in pretty good shape haveing been beaten about18:04
ayoungmarekd, yes18:04
henrynashayoung: on uniquness18:04
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ayoungmarekd, if I want to "squat" on the domain name "CERN" can I cretea domain under my project with that name?18:04
marekdayoung: so yes...there will be a  problem :-)18:05
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henrynash1) Yes, all domains names stay unique18:05
marekdunless we use some existing systems like DNS :P18:05
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stevemar_ignore ^18:06
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henrynash2) I also believe we can avoid the origional issue of there being two child projects of teh same name (with one being a reguakr project, one being a domain)…we can jsut ensure that is not allowed…and you can’t get into that issue via migration18:06
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henrynashproposal to team is18:06
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henrynashUse domains for HMT…but with the restrictions of:18:07
henrynash1) all domain names unique18:07
henrynash2) NO inheritance across domains…i.e. we are just using domain parent as an indiactor of owner18:07
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henrynashThis is as the oriinal spec was written and agreed for Liberty18:08
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henrynashquestions: ?18:09
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davechenwhat's the domain parent comes from if no inheritance is allowed?18:09
stevemar_is this the spec? http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/keystone-specs/specs/backlog/reseller.html18:09
bknudson_inheritance of what?18:09
htrutaand this is already implemented18:09
htrutastevemar_: yes18:09
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gyeerole assignment inheritance?18:10
bknudson_domain is anywhere in the tree?18:10
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henrynashdavechen: parent is just ownership, where you inherite assignments down the tree is a different matter18:10
htrutalots of things changed since the spec... maybe we need to update it18:10
henrynashbknduson_: only at top….parent of a domin must be another domai18:10
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htrutastevemar_: but if it helps, henrynash has already updated the api18:10
bknudson_ok, domain parent can't be a project18:10
henrynashbknduson_: true18:11
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ayounghenrynash, I don't like it18:11
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henrynashayoung: :-)18:11
ayoungit violates the scope fo project assignments18:11
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bknudson_and we're still doing a domain is a special type of project?18:11
ayoungthe global naming thing really complicates issues18:11
henrynashbknudson_: yes, that’s wjhat phase 1 is18:12
ayoungthink from an RBAC perspective18:12
ayoungwhat would you need to have as a role in order to create a domain under a project?18:12
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gyeewe don't support creating a domain under a project18:13
henrynashbkundson_: (so strictly the parent of a project acting as a domin must be another poject acting as a domain)18:13
henrynashayoung: hu? we don’t allow that18:13
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ayounghenrynash, so domains not under a project?  Nested domains still  problematic.18:13
davechengyee: what's about he domain is actually a project, project inheritence is allowed, right?18:14
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htrutaayoung: projects acting as domains only under other projects that act as domains18:14
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gyeedavechen, we support D -> D -> D but not D -> P -> D18:14
ayounghenrynash, so, this is why I said at one point "put domains only yunder other domains, and then give an approach for nesting the names"18:14
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ayounghenrynash, let me write it up in email and I think I can make it clearer18:15
henrynashayoung: we are putting domain under other domains…18:15
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davechengyee: when the reseller is done, that's still not possible?18:15
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xekOk, so I already briefly talked with stevemar_ at the summit about my idea to introduce a unit test for checking for incompatible sql db changes18:15
ayounghenrynash, domains under domains will only work with a DNS style naming18:15
xek^ ignore that18:15
henrynashayoung: what’s DNS got to do with it?18:16
ayounghenrynash, unique naming18:16
htrutaayoung: that might be our next steps... to remove the uniquness of domain name across the cloud18:16
ayoung"coke"  vs "pepsi"18:16
ayoungpepsi should not be able to create a domain named "coke"18:16
gyeedavechen, no, we can't have D -> P -> D or this is going to be a bloody mess18:16
gyeenot that it hasn't already18:16
ayoungonly  ["pepsi","coke"] etc18:16
henrynashayoung: we can always look to relax that rule later18:17
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stevemar_i think the take away here is we need to better explain the problem and proposed solution18:17
henrynashayoung: let’s not fix everything at once!18:17
ayounghenrynash, relax what rule?  We can't allow nesting without breaking things at the policy level18:18
gyeestevemar_, ++, still a bunch of mysteries :)18:18
stevemar_theres a lot of moving parts here18:18
stevemar_yeah, i'm having trouble keeping track of it all18:18
ayounghenrynash, let me write it up..too much to explain here18:18
marekdhenrynash: so,you don't have a solution for domain uniqieness?18:18
marekdhenrynash: i thought you had said you have18:18
henrynashmarekd: I didn;t try and solve that…since people (at the summit) demanded that domains sat unique!18:19
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marekdhenrynash: ok18:19
samueldmqstevemar_: ++ me too18:19
xekI think updating the spec is a good idea18:19
marekdhenrynash: no, wait...'sat unique' ?18:19
gyeehenrynash, domains has to be unique, or we'll need to introduce Keystone V418:19
henrynash(stay unique)18:19
marekdhenrynash: what's that mean?18:19
ayoungsit and stay sitting18:19
henrynashOk, so sounds like we need a new spec?18:20
samueldmqfor resellet in general we should be moving in small steps; I think we should get reseller, but: i) domains only under domains and ii) it should be allowed to get project scoped tokens in is-domain projects, only is-domain-project scoped tokens18:20
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ayounghenrynash, this is a reseller issue.  I think that requesting a new domain should be workflow, but not subject to HMT....its a superblock, not a mountpoint18:20
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stevemar_henrynash: not necessarily a new spec18:21
stevemar_damn, i'll settle for a paste or an email18:21
stevemar_update the exisitng backlog spec18:21
stevemar_something that clears things up18:21
henrynashso teh exiisting spec mixes pahse 1 and phase 218:21
samueldmqhenrynash: so we need to first fix that18:22
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stevemar_i have no problem ripping the completed parts of phase1 from the backspec and marking them as completed18:22
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stevemar_we gotta keep chugging along, i'll ping you after the meeting henrynash18:23
henrynashOk, so I’ll write up teh propased pahse 2 solution…maybe as a spec18:23
stevemar_henrynash: we can figure out the logistics together18:23
henrynashok, I yield :-)18:23
stevemar_#topic New reno-based process for release notes18:23
*** openstack changes topic to "New reno-based process for release notes (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:23
stevemar_bknudson_: you're up!18:23
bknudson_so openstack has a new tool for doing release notes18:24
bknudson_instead of doing release notes on the wiki at the end of the release we can propose release notes with the patch18:24
bknudson_and the proposal is that we use this new approach18:24
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gyeebknudson_, link?18:25
bknudson_which means a change to how we do reviews -- essentially if release notes for the change are required then we need to make sure they're included18:25
marekdbknudson_: i think it's still author's responsibility18:25
breton_and reviewers'18:26
davechenwhat's kind of thing should include release notes in the patchset?18:26
stevemar_davechen: yes18:26
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breton_-1 if you think it should be in release notes18:26
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henrynashso I think this is great…and in fact I’ve already written my first one…but wasn’t sure on teh scope of each RN….is it just that one feature? you are implementing (see https://review.openstack.org/#/c/242853/14/releasenotes/notes/Assignment_V9_driver-c22be069f7baccb0.yaml)18:26
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AJaegerFor output, see http://docs.openstack.org/releasenotes/neutron/ (good initial content) or http://docs.openstack.org/releasenotes/keystone (empty)18:26
stevemar_there's one review in particular that says when to add stuff: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/246455/18:26
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xekdavechen, incompatible config changes is one example18:26
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davechenstevemar_: i didnt't get it.18:27
bknudson_#link http://docs.openstack.org/developer/keystone/developing.html#release-notes18:27
stevemar_i've proposed our liberty release notes here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/246145/ stable-cores please review :)18:27
bknudson_our developer guidelines have a section saying what the changes are that should have release notes18:28
stevemar_davechen: oops, it says so here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/246455/18:28
davechencool, thanks, check it out later.18:28
bknudson_Also, I started an etherpad with the changes that have already merged and should have release notes: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-mitaka-release-notes18:28
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stevemar_bknudson_: oh nice18:29
henrynashbkundson_:, stevemar_: but it sill isn’t clear to me which section you fill out in the yaml doc for your partiuclar change…there’s one RN doc per change?18:29
stevemar_oh release note18:29
henrynashor do you update a release RN18:29
henrynashi.e. teh Mitaka RN?18:30
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bknudson_we just want the release notes to look right by the time we're at the end of the release.18:30
stevemar_henrynash: one release note per bug/blueprint/backwards incompatible thing18:30
bknudson_I don't think it has to be one release note per patch18:30
bknudson_you could update an existing release note if you're changing something18:30
stevemar_not ALL bugs need release notes, just if they impact operators18:30
dolphmNot all bugs deserve release notes18:30
stevemar_dolphm: thanks :)18:30
samueldmqorend-users, etc18:31
henrynashsure, get that….18:31
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dolphmif you care about ALL bugs, refer to LP18:31
bknudson_hopefully the guidelines here make it clear that not all bugs require a patch : http://docs.openstack.org/developer/keystone/developing.html#release-notes18:31
bknudson_require a release note18:31
stevemar_henrynash: so yeah, just do: reno new <bug/bp>, then fill in the section that matters18:31
AJaegerhenrynash: if you have a series of changes, add the release note to the last one that "finishes" the implementation.18:31
bknudson_the only bugs the guidelines say need a release note are security bugs.18:31
davechenso, i may say it's a little subjective, but good to go.18:32
stevemar_the build process lumps the sections together, so all "features" are together and all "upgrades" are together18:32
henrynashAJaegar: actually no, I build the release note incremental as my patches add changes18:32
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henrynashstevemar_: ahh, right THAT was my question…how doe sthat happen18:32
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stevemar_henrynash: magic :)18:32
stevemar_specifically build-sphinx-magic18:33
stevemar_it's a branch off of sorcery18:33
AJaegerhenrynash: that's another option of doing it ;)18:33
henrynashbut then you must wriet your text assuming they are distributed amongst other RNs18:33
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henrynashwhich i didn’t do18:33
stevemar_henrynash: right18:34
stevemar_henrynash: looking at your patch, i would remove the "Nones"18:34
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stevemar_henrynash: maybe look at https://github.com/openstack/neutron/tree/stable/liberty/releasenotes/notes and compare to http://docs.openstack.org/releasenotes/neutron/liberty.html18:35
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stevemar_^ should make it clear how the build will look like18:35
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henrynashyep, absolutley answerits it.18:36
stevemar_#topic Online Schema Migration18:36
*** openstack changes topic to "Online Schema Migration (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:36
xekok, that's me18:36
henrynash(henry can’t type straight anyway)18:36
stevemar_hi xek!18:36
xekthe idea is to introduce a unit test for checking for incompatible sql db changes18:36
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xekafter the unit test is merged, it's easy for reviewers to spot any incompatibilities18:36
breton_incompatible with what?18:37
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xekincopatible with previous versions18:37
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xekso an upgrade without downtime is possible18:37
xekbreton suggested a spec is needed, so I made one18:37
bknudson_we're never had this requirement before18:37
xekI think it's a good idea to get more eyeballs on the issue18:37
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bknudson_and I don't see how it could catch any incompatibility18:38
bknudson_because we could just change the way we interpret a field18:38
xekwell it just checks for drops and alters18:38
davechenxek: how we know it's incompatiblity with previous versions?18:38
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bknudson_we can never drop a table or column?18:38
bknudson_the tables will just keep getting wider and wider18:38
xekdropping a column or changing a name will obviously be incompatible with the previous sqlalchemy model18:39
dstanekis there a specific issue that this is trying to prevent?18:39
xekthis limits what db changes one can make between releases18:39
davechenxek: but it's always what migration does.18:39
xekso a schema change, which previously took one release, can take 318:39
bknudson_we should be able to drop a column if we've stopped using it for a release18:39
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bknudson_Is there a spec proposed?18:40
breton_as far as I understand, xek wants to be able to do "git checkout master; k-m db_sync;" and have no downtime18:40
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xekbknudson_, yes, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/245186/18:40
davechenbknudson_: i think so, there is spec.18:40
henrynashxek: so what’s the goal, code upgrade withut simultaneious schema change, or schema upgrade without simultaneious code change?18:40
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xekpartial schema change before upgrading the code, then both versions - the old one, and the new one running simultaneously18:41
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lbragstadso, the goal is to be able to update schema without having to restart database nodes, right?18:42
davechenthe change looks like for rolling upgrade, and reduce the downtime?18:42
henrynashxek: ok, right so now we getting to the issue..so you can roll your update out across your OS deploymet18:42
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bknudson_if we're going to do this then we should have tests for it.18:42
xekhenrynash, yep18:42
gyeeshouldn't this be a grenade requirement as oppose to service-specific?18:42
xekbknudson_, probably grenade multi-node tests18:42
bknudson_as in, run tempest on stable keystone after migrating to master db18:42
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bknudson_and maybe we could even have unit test for it somehow.18:44
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lbragstadwouldn't you have to test that you can use a service, update the api node, then update the db18:44
shalehxek, have you tried it today to see how badly say kilo -> liberty went18:44
bknudson_I hope we don't have to support new code with old db, too.18:44
xekshaleh, I checked that there were a couple of patches which dropped things18:44
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xekshaleh, that's why I want to start with Mitaka18:45
lbragstadbknudson_ wouldn't your api layer have to know how to deal with both versions of the schema before you can drop the old schema?18:45
gyeebknudon, I hope not :)18:45
shalehxek, but have you tried to perform this style of upgrade and documented the failures?18:45
bknudson_but we will have to support old code writing to db and new code using it.18:45
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dstanekxek: how do we add features is alter isn't allowed?18:45
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bknudson_dstanek: alter column18:46
xekdstanek, you can add things, and drop them the next release18:46
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lbragstadxek but the api layer has logic that knows how to handle both cases of the schema18:46
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samueldmqso the idea is to deprecte the feature/db model vefore droping table/column whatever?18:46
samueldmqdon't we do this already ?18:47
marekdi think not18:47
dstanekbknudson_: we have had columns altered in the last release (?) to support feature18:47
samueldmqI think we do, I can't think of a thing we remove without deprecation18:47
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xekif we already do it the unit test will just be an additional hint for the code reviewers18:48
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xekhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/241603/ - link to the unit test18:49
bknudson_if this is what our users want then I think we should give it to them.18:49
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lbragstadxek have you talked to odyssey4me about this?18:49
bknudson_a unit test is only the start of it18:49
xeklbragstad, not yet18:50
shalehbknudson_, perhaps we do a dry run of this for mitaka and implement it fully in N?18:50
lbragstadxek he has a lot of the same ideas18:50
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xeklbragstad, I'll get in touch18:50
lbragstadshaleh bknudson_ I'd like to make some changes to the revocation_event table, we could try it there18:50
lbragstadxek you can find him in #openstack-ansible18:51
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shalehI would like to see someone run the upgrade like xek suggests and document just how well (or not) it goes18:51
bknudson_lbragstad: dropping and altering columns?18:51
lbragstadxek he wanted to discuss this today in the meeting, but is based in the uk18:51
dstanekto really support 0-downtime we have to deal with a multiple phase migration....i think i need to read the spec on this to understand it better18:51
lbragstadbknudson_ I want to remove the datetime format usage in sql18:52
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bknudson_that's going to break everything18:52
stevemar_xek: we're gonna have to continue in -keystone, i want to give davechen a few minutes18:52
bknudson_you're going to need to do both for a release18:52
davechen++ :)18:52
xekstevemar_, ok, I welcome any reviews18:52
bknudson_both formats in separate columns18:52
lbragstadbknudson_ it will be a long running migration, yes18:52
davechenstevemar_: my topic is pretty light.18:52
lbragstadbknudson_ yeah, exactly18:52
stevemar_#topic Should return the endpoints from endpoint_group when using "endpoint_filter.sql" as catalog's backend driver?18:53
*** openstack changes topic to "Should return the endpoints from endpoint_group when using "endpoint_filter.sql" as catalog's backend driver? (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:53
stevemar_davechen: what's up?18:53
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davecheni filed a bug there.18:53
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davecheni just found when using endpoint_filter.sql as the backend for catalog18:53
stevemar_#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/151646918:53
openstackLaunchpad bug 1516469 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "endpoints not show correctly when using "endpoint_filter.sql" as catalog's backend driver" [Undecided,New] - Assigned to Dave Chen (wei-d-chen)18:53
gyeedavechen, yes18:53
davechengyee: yes?18:53
davechenyes for what?18:53
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davecheni am not sure whtether it's a bug or not18:54
davechensince I am not sure about the fearure implemented long time ago18:54
gyeethat is a bug18:54
davechenbut seem not many people use it.18:54
gyeewe should be filtering the endpoints when the endpoint_filter.sql backend is used18:54
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davechenit's hanging around for so long time, no one found it?18:55
bknudson_both of those calls should be going through the same backend method so should get the same result :(18:55
davechenyes. but it's currently not.18:55
shalehI ran into some of this when working on Mercador.18:55
davechenthere might be some code to be changed.18:55
stevemar_davechen: i doubt many folks are using endpoint filter18:55
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ayoungI think they are18:55
davechenbut's it not hard to so this, or to fix this.18:55
ayoungkeeps catalog managable18:56
davechenstevemar_: but no report for it so far?18:56
stevemar_davechen: looks like you found it18:56
davechenokay, not that all of you experts agree it's a bug, i am going to fix it shortly.18:56
davechennow that18:56
gyeeyou mean bug or feature?18:57
davechenthe bug18:57
stevemar_it's a bug18:57
gyeeits a "special feature"18:57
davecheni think it's should be a bug instead of a feature.18:57
gyeeso yes, its a bug!18:57
stevemar_alright alright gyee18:57
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davechengyee: you are asking for spec for review :)18:57
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stevemar_davechen: he's failing at being funny :)18:57
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stevemar_davechen: thanks for staying up!18:57
stevemar_i know it's late there18:58
davechennope, it's good time for me, i am in US18:58
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stevemar_davechen: :O18:58
gyeedavechen, you in Santa Clara?18:58
davechenstevemar_: thanks for your kindness.18:58
gyeewe should go grab coffee18:58
davechenyes, I am done18:58
stevemar_#topic REVIEW SPECS!18:58
davechenthanks guys18:58
*** openstack changes topic to "REVIEW SPECS! (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:58
stevemar_everyone review specs, go go go18:58
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* gyee runs18:59
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stevemar_we need more eyes18:59
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stevemar_eyes on all the specs!18:59
stevemar_looking at you bknudson_18:59
stevemar_not reviewing enough18:59
stevemar_that is all18:59
bknudson_I don't care about specs18:59
stevemar_thank you everyone18:59
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stevemar_bknudson_: the specs care about you <318:59
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 17 18:59:44 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-11-17-18.00.html18:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-11-17-18.00.txt18:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-11-17-18.00.log.html18:59
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pleia2#startmeeting infra19:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 17 19:00:45 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:00
pleia2#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:00
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pleia2alright, happy meeting time!19:01
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pleia2#topic Announcements19:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
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pleia2anyone have any announcements?19:01
anteayaglad you're back?19:01
pleia2anteaya: thanks :)19:01
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clarkbpleia2: elasticsearch upgrade is done done19:02
pleia2clarkb: cool19:02
clarkbnow moing on to logstash and kibana upgrades19:02
* pleia2 nods19:02
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clarkb(if anyone wants to learn more about how we logstash I can walk people through testing)19:02
anteayaclarkb: is the page showing unclassified errors now only showing logs from gate runs?19:02
clarkbanteaya: no logstash upgrade will address that19:03
anteayaclarkb: okay thanks19:03
pleia2#info elasticsearch upgrade is done, clarkb now moving on to logstash and kibana upgrades (and he's offered to help teach others about logstash)19:03
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pleia2ok, I think we can move on19:03
pleia2#topic Actions from last meeting19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
pleia2jeblair investigate whether 209906 is needed for gerrit 2.1119:03
pleia2jeblair: how'd that go?19:03
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jeblairshort version: yes :)19:04
pleia2#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/20990619:04
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jeblairso we should add that into the list of things we need to do before the gerrit upgrade19:04
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anteayashould we change the topic on that patch to gerrit-upgrade?19:04
jeblairanteaya: yes19:04
pleia2ok, so the patch looks good to folks who have looked at it, mordred has asked for jeblair eyes before merging19:05
pleia2we'll dive more into the migration later in the meeting, so we can move on from this19:05
pleia2nibalizer send one-week reminder for scheduled maintenance on the 18th19:05
pleia2I didn't see this, but I could have missed it, nibalizer?19:05
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zaroi didn't see reminder either.19:06
pleia2if it wasn't sent out, it might be worth sending one that says "tomorrow" :)19:06
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nibalizeri dont think i did htat19:06
pleia2nibalizer: want to send one now-ish?19:07
pleia2cool, thanks19:07
nibalizerreply to the original announcement or a new message19:07
pleia2I think reply to original19:07
pleia2and the last action from the last meeting:19:07
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pleia2clarkb double-check git-review interactions with gerrit 2.11 on review-dev.openstack.org19:07
pleia2clarkb: how did that go?19:07
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clarkbworks fine19:08
clarkblet me get my test change19:08
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pleia2#topic Specs approval19:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:09
pleia2so the only one this week is carried over from last, phschwartz has a spec proposed to add extension to openstackci for next phase of work19:10
pleia2#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/239810/19:10
pleia2yolanda had some comments on the patch and asselin__ agreed19:10
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yolandathat's due to discussion originated about graphite wrapper patch, and conversation that followed infra channel19:11
asselin__yes, I think the spec needs a bit more clarification. Based on discussion, it doesn't seem to be just an extension19:11
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yolandaactually there were some comments that clarificated the issue, but done on graphite change19:11
yolandai asked to add these comments into the spec19:12
pleia2makes sense19:12
pleia2so it sounds like folks will keep moving forward on this, and we can revisit again next week19:12
pleia2#topic Priority Effort: Gerrit 2.11 Upgrade19:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Effort: Gerrit 2.11 Upgrade (Meeting topic: infra)"19:12
pleia2big event for the week, the agenda has our series of etherpads19:13
zaro#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/test-gerrit-2.1119:13
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zaro#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gerrit-2.11-upgrade19:13
pleia2thanks zaro19:13
zaroso patches are up for review.19:13
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zaroi think we are still working thru this one #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/243879/19:14
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zaroclarkb: says the change there is not correct19:14
zarowe'll need to fixo that.19:14
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anteayacan I ask who will be available tomorrow to help with the upgrade?19:15
zaroalso rollback is probably a no go..  #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/245598/19:15
pleia2ok, so we should make sure we focus on that this afternoon19:15
cody-somervilleBig shout out to Zaro and jeblair for representing us at Gerrit Summit again! I know Zaro goes most years. :) Really enjoyed reading the write up.19:15
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zarocody-somerville: thanks19:15
clarkbanteaya: I will be around19:15
anteayaI will be19:15
jeblairi will19:16
pleia2me too19:16
zaroof course me as well19:16
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anteayahow do we feel so far about the upgrade plan?19:16
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pabelangerI can if needed19:16
anteayadoes the etherpad capture the steps needed?19:16
pleia2zaro: so that patch means we don't have a good way prepared to roll back the database from 2.11 to 2.8 if things go sideways19:16
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clarkbanteaya: I added my comments to upgrade plan otherwise it looked straightforward19:17
zaropleia2: that is a correct assesment.19:17
anteayapabelanger: okay what we need most from non root folks is reviewing patches and testing things on review-dev, happy to have your help19:17
pleia2ok, how do we feel about not having a database rollback plan?19:17
anteayaclarkb: thanks19:17
zaropleia2: we can only go back to backup.19:17
clarkbpleia2: I thought we had one?19:17
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anteayapleia2: well we can keep the old data but we lose new data19:17
pleia2zaro: ah, restore frm backups, no rollback19:17
clarkbthere is a rollback if required change19:18
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clarkbwhat am I missing?19:18
anteayabut the rollboack loses new data19:18
pleia2clarkb: zaro said it doesn't work https://review.openstack.org/#/c/245598/19:18
zaroclarkb: i was plannig to investigate further today but rollback script doesn't work as is19:18
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zaroyah, cannot access new changes after rolling back.19:19
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clarkbis mordred aware?19:19
anteayayes we talked about this this morning in irc19:19
zaroyes, there was discussion in infra channel19:19
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zaroother that what i have reported, i'm not aware that there's anything else that's needed for the upgrade to happen.19:20
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zarothanks to all the peeps that tested review-dev!19:21
jeblairi think as long as we are able to merge the zuul change before the gerrit upgrade, we can just let the zuul upgrade happen with the restart that will go along with the gerrit upgrade.19:21
clarkbgiven how poorly last upgrade went I am not sure how comfortable I am without a rollback19:21
pleia2#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-infra/%23openstack-infra.2015-11-17.log.html#t2015-11-17T16:30:0119:22
anteayajeblair: can we add that point to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gerrit-2.11-upgrade ?19:22
pleia2that seems to be where the discussion began19:22
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ruagairNot having a roll back makes me rather uneasy.19:22
jeblair(if something fails with the zuul change, it is most likely to affect only mergeability checks, so it's not super-critical)19:22
clarkbI would also worry about git repo confusion if we revert then change with same change number ends up in repo that already has it19:22
ruagairAlthough I'm also not able to help at the time.19:22
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jeblairclarkb: agreed, i think if we are unable to rollback with new data, we need to revert both the db and the git repos19:23
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jeblairso new changes would completely disappear and we would be back to the pre-upgrade state19:23
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persiaCould new changes be set aside somewhere, so that authors could be notified?19:24
jeblairso i think our choices are: (a) delay pending a rollback procedure that can backport new data, or (b) say our rollback plan is restore both the db _and_ the filesystem from pre-upgrade state19:24
ruagairEither of those is a reasonable response, depending on the change rate and how many might be lost with b)19:25
jeblair(b) has some serious problems if we merge changes to any repos -- we will be rewinding branch tips.19:25
anteayapersia: I think if gerrit treated our data so well that we could do that, I doubt we would need to downgrade19:26
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jeblairpotentially making repos non-fast-forwardable19:26
jeblairso (b) is not a _good_ rollback plan.19:26
clarkbjeblair: agreed19:26
ruagairjeblair: agreed19:26
nibalizer(b) is only realistic on a short turnaround time19:26
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nibalizera few hours or a day sure, but a week or something its a giant problem19:27
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jeblairthe prior problem was observed after a few hours19:27
nibalizerbut we didn't rollback until monday19:27
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nibalizerafter a satudray, upgrade19:28
clarkbwe didnt understand the scope of the issue until monday rush19:28
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jeblairlong enough that if it happened again, we would have some non-ff-able branches, but perhaps not too many19:29
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pleia2do we think we can find a solution to make (a) reasonable? (and is there anyone to work on it?)19:30
pleia2aside from zaro19:31
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anteayathe suspicion is that data is being stored in git19:31
anteayasince reflogs are being created for everything19:31
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anteayaI don't know what the solution is to restore that19:31
jeblairso as it stands, if we proceed, our plan is "if we notice a failure immediately, we can roll back fs and db; if we notice a failure after a delay, try _really hard_ to fix it moving forward; if that fails, we can roll back fs and db but it will be a *big deal* and cause mass confusion"19:31
* pleia2 nods19:32
jeblairanteaya: i think (a) has not been fully investigated19:32
anteayathat sounds to be about it19:32
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anteayajeblair: that is true19:32
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jeblairi think the investigation has gotten to "something might be happening in git" but we don't understand what yet, so it's hard to reason about19:32
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anteayawell as far as there is code that appears to be creating reflogs19:33
jeblairsure, i don't know what that means though :)19:33
anteayame either19:33
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pleia2I don't know who makes a decision here, perhaps see if we can gather mordred and zaro and others later this afternoon?19:34
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ruagairMy gut feel (having vontributed nothing to the work :-( ) is that it sounds like we're not quote ready.19:34
pleia2make a decision before 00:00 utc19:34
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anteayaruagair: but I don't know when we are going to be readier19:34
clarkbya I want zaro and mordred to weigh in19:34
pleia2anteaya: nobody does :\19:34
anteayaso waiting for us to be readier might delay us a while19:35
jeblairpleia2: i think that plan sounds good -- we need input from mordred and zaro19:35
pleia2ok, let's see what they think this afternoon about the reasonable solveability of this problem19:35
zaroso i don't know aboout confort level but nodbody else ever does rollbacks in the gerrit community.19:35
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zaroi've asked19:35
pleia2any other concerns, etc about the upgrade?19:35
clarkbzaro: they also run with major server breakin bugs19:35
pleia2clarkb: heh, right19:35
clarkbzaro: as we discovered19:35
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jeblairzaro: we never did either until it completely failed19:35
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jeblairand the fix is brand new and took something like 8 attempts19:36
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jeblairnibalizer: so you'll hold your announcement until we make a decision by 00:00 utc?19:37
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pleia2#agreed gather thoughts from mordred and zaro, make go/no go decision about gerrit upgrade by 00:00 UTC19:38
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pleia2#topic maniphest migration19:38
*** openstack changes topic to "maniphest migration (Meeting topic: infra)"19:38
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pleia2I don't know if this is left over from last week (there was discussion last week)19:38
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pleia2and it's early for ruagair :)19:39
ruagairI've got no updates I've note.19:39
pleia2oh, hi!19:39
ruagairof note.19:39
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ruagairI've hacked further cauth, made small progress.19:39
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clarkbruagair: I found docs for doing mod auth openid and LP dont have link handy though :(19:39
pleia2ruagair: ok to remove the details from the agenda for the next meeting?19:39
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clarkbit does not work with openstackid yet19:39
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ruagairclarkb: link would be nice, I'd like to look at that.19:39
ruagairyes pleia2. Thank you.19:39
clarkbruagair: I will dig it up19:39
ruagairThanks clarkb19:40
pleia2the openstackid team is easy to work with, we made changes to it in order to support zanata's auth19:40
pleia2so hopefully getting whatever we need won't be much of a barrier19:40
clarkb#link http://www.keypressure.com/blog/modauthopenid-and-ubuntu-sso/19:40
clarkbruagair: ^19:40
clarkbI am working with smarcet et al to get it working with openstackid too19:41
ruagairGot it.19:41
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clarkb(openstackid isn't completely spec compliant when it comes to uri discovery)19:41
* pleia2 nods19:41
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ruagairI'll give that a run today clarkb19:42
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pleia2thanks for your work on this, ruagair19:42
pleia2#topic Open discussion19:42
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ruagairYou're welcome. Sorry about getting hung up on cauth.19:42
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pleia2ruagair: having been through this with another project, I totally understand19:42
clarkband I newly understand19:42
pleia2turns out federated auth is hard19:42
clarkband they don't make debugging easy19:43
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clarkb"no more idp endpoints"19:43
clarkbWhat does that mean?19:43
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clarkband "this OP is not authorized to assert stuff about identity"19:43
clarkbor something19:43
anteayaI'd just like to ask the folks who felt we weren't ready for the gerrit upgrade to go over some of the etherpads and patches and help to get us to the point where they feel we are ready19:43
zaroclarkb: so would you mind investigating the '//' on review-dev further while i take some time to investigate the rollback error?19:43
pleia2anteaya: ++19:43
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ruagairAccepted anteaya. :-D19:44
clarkbzaro: yes I can continue to work on that if someone can add my key to my user19:44
clarkbotherwise I have to go get my old key out of cold storage19:44
anteayaruagair: thank you, would be grateful to have your input on the data issue19:44
clarkbwhich I can do if it is easier19:44
zaroclarkb: i can do but don't know the mechanics of that.19:44
jeblairclarkb: i'll fix19:45
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clarkbok thanks19:45
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* clarkb advertises logstash local test setup and learning to anyone interested19:46
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clarkbto happe nafter tomorrow19:46
clarkbjeblair: I am in19:46
pabelangerI wouldn't mind talking about stackalytics.o.o. The site has been live for a week, however I think we need to talk about maintenance.  In all that time we have not restarted wsgi, so we are not running the latest version of stackalytics.19:47
* ruagair is interested clarkb 19:47
pabelangerwe'll need to decide how to reload wsgi, since it takes more then 15mins to bring the process back up19:47
clarkbruagair: cool we can figure out details after meeting19:47
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jeblairpabelanger: seems like we might want to cron that for a slow time?  either that or make it an ha system and alternate upgrades.19:48
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jeblair(one of those sounds notably easier than the other)19:49
pabelangerjeblair: right. slow time is how it is done today on stackalytics.com. So, if people are fine with that (15-20mins potential outage), I can setup cron to do that.  But I agree, something HA might be better19:49
mmedvedeclarkb: where do I need to show up to learn about logstash local setup?19:49
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clarkbmmedvede: mostly just trying to figure out who is interested then we can decide on details19:50
clarkbso ping me and after meeting we can all sort out details19:50
annegentleo/ I had a Q about the status of publishing docs.o.o from swift, spec is here: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/doc-publishing.html19:51
jeblairpabelanger: the slow cron sounds like a great start19:51
pabelangerjeblair: other option is what greghaynes suggested, using wsgi maximum-requests to restart processes19:51
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annegentleLooks like it's not a priority, but I also noticed the spec itself doesn't address one need that we have which is https. Does anyone have a thought/comment?19:51
pabelangerbut honestly, need more help with wsgi to understand how it works19:51
jeblairannegentle: i think https would be easy to add19:52
persiapabelanger: Is it possible to bring up the upgraded one in a separate process, and redirect wsgi when it has finished the memory load?19:52
pabelangererr, uwsgi19:52
pabelangerpersia: not sure, but I do like that approach19:52
annegentlejeblair: does the spec need updating? We're also looking at writing a spec for developer.o.o publishing19:52
pabelangerpersia: our current issue, we only have so much RAM left, and are limited to 2 processes19:52
annegentlejeblair: and wondered if a 2nd spec is the way to go there19:52
persiapabelanger: Ah, good point.19:52
greghaynes_re: slow startup - we should have a way to preload what is needed before uwsgi considers the process 'up', that requires some knowledge of the app though19:53
jeblairannegentle: but yeah, we haven't started working on that yet, maybe we can find someone to start on that soon.19:53
greghaynes_that is the typical way that problem is solved19:53
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yolandabefore finishing the meeting, i'd like to share progress about infra-cloud19:53
pabelangergreghaynes_: ya, I have been meaning to look into that19:53
yolandaricky and myself have been working on us east19:53
pleia2yolanda: oh good19:53
greghaynes_if you do that, then the max-lifetime will 'just work' because when it restarts the wsgi process and wait for the preload to finish before it adds it in to the worker pool19:53
yolandawe've hit a problem with bifrost, when disks are > 2TB. I filed a change here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/246253, seems to have acceptation19:54
annegentlejeblair: I'm a wee bit concerned about timing since it has been approved 18 months now? And we'll need to slice it in well before an actual release. So a target would be lovely, such as mitaka-2 or some such?19:54
jeblairannegentle: if dev.o.o can use the same mechanism, then we can just update the existing spec;19:54
pabelangergreghaynes_: Ah, perfect19:54
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annegentlejeblair: it _can_ though we'd prefer to have a "real" server for developer.openstack.org for more dynamic content, so that sounds like a separate spec.19:54
greghaynes_I am PTOing (in theory) today, but later in the week I could help look at it19:54
annegentlejeblair: but wanted to ask about both here19:54
jeblairannegentle: like you want developer.o.o to be a web app?19:55
annegentlejeblair: ideally so we can more dynamically serve API content19:55
annegentlejeblair: instead of static files19:55
pleia2yolanda: sounds like you're on your way to a fix19:55
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yolandagreghaynes, want to take a look ? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/246253 - we also hit some problem with bifrost and duplicated templates https://review.openstack.org/24406119:55
jeblairannegentle: i thought all the api content could be generated statically?  i mean it doesn't change from moment to moment, right?19:55
yolandathis one, had a -1 from Deva, seems we need to clarify which is the right template19:56
annegentlejeblair: it can be, sure, but precludes the use of swagger-ui or any sort of sandbox19:56
annegentlejeblair: I think a spec would be a good way to keep the idea fresh and get reviews, does that sound right to you?19:56
annegentlejeblair: we didn't really get a meeting with mordred though we tried :)19:56
jeblairannegentle: oh, last i heard i thought there was talk about using swagger or something like it to generate the static stuff.  either way, yeah, sounds like speccing would be good.19:56
yolandapleia2, i wanted to raise the need for tracking progress properly on that... currently is quite messy. We pass info internally on mails, jira tickets on HP, storyboard...19:56
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* anteaya gives annegentle her club jacket19:57
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ttxand etherpads!19:57
annegentlejeblair: yes, we're definitely going static for now, but with facing 18+ months for even that I want to be sure we keep moving things forward incrementally19:57
jeblairannegentle: oh, i see -- yeah, i was probably thinking of that mordred idea but i guess that hasn't happened.19:57
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pleia2yolanda: do you have any thoughts as to how to make it better, or just mentioning the problem?19:57
annegentlejeblair: yeah. so better for me to at least make sure we have the idea on paper. bits/bytes paper anyway :)19:57
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greghaynes_yolanda: I'll have a look at it in a bit, trying to family time today :)19:57
annegentlefeels more responsible anyway19:57
pabelangerOh. If people could also look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/205596/ for an example of using puppetlabs-apache. I am wanting to start work on the vhost::custom upstream and want to make sure everybody is happy how it will look for use.  While not 100%, the concept will be the same.19:57
pleia2yolanda: I'd be happy to help finding a solution19:57
jeblairyolanda: talk to Clint about tracking progress19:58
yolandapleia2, i wanted to put my hope on phabricator, but this seems to be WIP19:58
pabelangerthat is the work yolanda was looking into to port forward to a newer version of puppet-apache19:58
pleia2oh yes, that's a great one for Clint19:58
* Clint grunts.19:58
pleia2o/ Clint19:58
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yolandaproblem is that storyboard is not complete enough to track everything. JIRA is something internal...19:59
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yolandaso what do we have?19:59
pleia2yolanda: honestly we sketch out work in etherpads19:59
yolandayep, but in terms of task tracking for example. Or managing the CMDB...19:59
Zaraany news on a spec for task tracking?19:59
pleia2all the upgrade stuff we're doing with gerrit should be in a proper task tracker20:00
yolandawe currently have this on excel sheets and emails, not good20:00
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pleia2Zara: earlier in the meeting ruagair shared some progress20:00
pleia2thanks everyone!20:00
Clintyolanda: this was intended to be useful for something: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/219372/20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 17 20:00:27 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-11-17-19.00.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-11-17-19.00.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-11-17-19.00.log.html20:00
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ttxAnyone here for the TC meeting ?20:00
yolandahi Clint, ok, will take a look20:00
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* edleafe_ lurks20:01
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ttxannegentle, lifeless, mordred, dtroyer, dhellmann: around ?20:01
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 17 20:01:37 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
ttxHi everyone!20:01
ttxHere is our agenda for today:20:01
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:02
ttxshould have some time for open discussion at the end20:02
ttx#topic Update deprecation policy for changes not in coordinated releases20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Update deprecation policy for changes not in coordinated releases (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/24211720:02
ttxLooks like this is pretty close now.20:02
ttxAs I said before, it clarifies what the deprecation policy means for intermediary-released projects (before we add any)20:02
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ttxThe latest iteration has clearer wording20:02
lifelessttx: o/20:03
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ttxI think we can approve it now if people reapply their previous votes20:03
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flaper87thanks to everyone for working on improving the wording there20:03
flaper87and to Jim for baring with us20:03
jrollwords are hard20:03
flaper87no objections from me20:03
flaper87jroll: no kidding20:03
mesteryThe landslide of +1s roll in!20:03
dtroyerthat is much better, thanks20:03
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dhellmannenglish is hard, let's write python20:03
russellbhas 8 +1s now20:03
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ttxAlright, we have a majority now. Will approve in 30 seconds unless someone screams20:04
* flaper87 does the countdown in his head20:04
lifelessdhellmann: man, I spent a whole day writing 4 lines of code yesterday. English so easy.20:04
dhellmannlifeless : heh20:04
ttxalright, it's in. Thx jroll for improving on the tag20:04
jrollwoo, thanks y'all20:04
ttx#topic Add team:single-vendor tag20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Add team:single-vendor tag (Meeting topic: tc)"20:04
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/21872520:05
ttxWe have 11 yes on this one, so I'll proceed to approve it unless someone screams20:05
flaper87whole bunch of +1s20:05
russellbi think where this has landed is a nice compromise on concerns20:05
russellbnice work20:05
ttxyeahn thx to jogo for driving most of it20:05
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flaper87and again, baring with us20:05
ttx#topic Add Fuel to OpenStack Projects20:06
jeblairi +1d but also think it should be single-org -- the application of it to debian seems weird.20:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Add Fuel to OpenStack Projects (Meeting topic: tc)"20:06
jaypipesjeblair: ++20:06
jaypipesjeblair: I had the same thought20:06
ttxjeblair: you can propose the wording change now20:06
ttxI'm not totally convinced but could change my mind20:06
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19923220:06
annegentleI'd like that wording change jeblair20:06
ttxSo... I put this one back on the docket this week since we did not come to a final decision (approve or defer) last week due to lack of voters20:06
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ttxWe have one formal NO votes and two formal abstentions in the comments, that leaves 5 unclear positions20:07
ttxIf we don't have enough YES to approve it, we'll defer it (which now means setting it to abandoned)20:07
ttxThe group rejecting it should post on the review a list of requirements before they would change their vote20:07
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ttx(if any)20:07
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lifelessjaypipes: jeblair: me too20:07
angdraugjeblair: have you seen my update from just before the meeting started?20:07
jeblairangdraug: just saw that20:08
ttxdo we have people tat haven't expressed a position yet and would like to ?20:08
lifelessmore though, the Debian thing isn't 'Debian' working on it; its an openstack vendor20:08
ttxlifeless: right, my thoughts20:08
ttxbut let's wait for the review :)20:08
ttxangdraug: link ?20:08
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angdraugcomment on the review you've linked above20:08
ttxon the review ? Oh ok20:09
angdraugin short, we've covered all the remaining gaps that I've listed earlier20:09
angdraugworked really hard yesterday and today making all the gates work20:09
jeblairi'm also happy to see the engagement from the fuel developers about further work.  i think their getting involved is timely considering the changes we're making around zuul, nodepool, and our focus on multinode work20:10
ttxmordred: any position on Fuel ?20:10
annegentleas a former cross-project PTL myself I appreciate cross-project work :)20:10
mordredyah - I'm excited about the stuff from bookwar20:10
ttxlifeless: same question20:10
angdraugfor the record, the thread from bookwar:20:10
mordredand I think that collaboration with the fuel team is potentially valuable as we look at multi-node testing20:10
angdraug#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-November/079284.html20:11
jeblairso i'm ready to switch to +120:11
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angdraugjeblair: thanks!20:11
lifelessttx: I think we should, *but* jeblair's concerns are significant to me20:11
mordredthe fuel team being honestly excited to work on the problems with us is the important bit - and it seems that they totally are20:11
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flaper87mordred: ++20:11
lifelessttx: OTOH no project is perfect, its always an going effort to get better and more efficient and more coverage etc20:12
mordred(+1 from me)20:12
mesteryjeblair's and infra's concerns in general were the reason for my abstaining, if Jim is ok with this, I'm ok with it.20:12
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dhellmannlifeless: ++20:12
ttxyeah, I thought Jim's concerns were valid, I was just fine with giving the Fuel team the benefit of doubt20:12
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mestery+1 party starting20:12
russellbsame, as i said on the review, i think it seems wrong to +1 this with an important cross project -1 on it20:12
annegentlettx: me too, well stated20:12
ttxsince all decisions can be changed20:12
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russellb+1 now20:13
jeblairttx: you're so much nicer than i am :)20:13
ttxYou do bad cop20:13
ttxI di good cop20:13
angdraug#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Fuel#People20:13
ttxanyway, looks like we have more than enough to approve now20:13
jeblairbut yeah, mordred succinctly expressed my feeling20:13
angdraugI've appointed bookwar and igorbelikov as liaisons to Infra team20:14
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ttxobviously the effort that was statred must continue20:14
annegentleI must know bookwar because that's the best IRC nick ever20:14
angdraugplease feel free to reach out to them on any fuel/infra cross-project issues20:14
ttxbut I really think the Fuel team is now working hand in hand with all the other teams20:14
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bookwarannegentle: we actually talked in vancouver i think.. :)20:14
ttxso the process was painful but I think it was positive for everyone20:15
ttxalrightn approving now20:15
ttxthat n key is too close to the , key20:15
ttxangdraug: all set!20:15
angdraugthanks a lot everyone!20:16
flaper87angdraug: thank you20:16
docaedoangdraug: congrats!20:16
mihgenthank you for trust guys. we are happy to work within larger community20:16
annegentlebookwar: ++! :)20:16
nurlathank you!20:16
angdraugwe really are excited to work with all of you )20:16
ttx#topic Comms workgroup report20:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Comms workgroup report (Meeting topic: tc)"20:16
ashtokolovangdraug: congrats!20:16
* mordred hands the fuel team a box of cookies with half a cookie in it, apologizes for having gotten hungry20:16
annegentlewelcome angdraug and all!20:16
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ttxannegentle, flaper87: where are we standing on the communications front ?20:16
ttxlooks like some blogpost is in order20:16
flaper87ttx: yup, it's20:17
ttxwith what we approved last week and this week, lots of material20:17
annegentlettx: we both unabashedly admit doing nothing in the last 2 weeks :)20:17
flaper87we just synced yday (o was that the day before?)20:17
annegentleyeah definitely time for a post20:17
annegentledo we have any improvement ideas from last six month's of the plan?20:17
ttxannegentle: I think that worked reasonably well20:18
flaper87We should send a request for feedback20:18
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flaper87I'm curious to know, after 6 months, whether ppl still read these communications20:18
annegentlettx: I think so, need more twitter power possibly, but other wise it's ok20:18
ttxyou can include it in the post20:18
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annegentleflaper87: yeah request for feedback in the post works20:18
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flaper87ttx: ha, in small letters ?20:18
jeblair"if you read this, please send $1 to flaper87"20:18
ttx"flaper87 will blog for food"20:19
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annegentleOK, so post should have newest additions to governance, anything else we want to discuss/get input on?20:19
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annegentleanything from summit, joint tc/board meeting?20:19
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flaper87Themes ?20:19
flaper87We might want to mention something about the Mitaka themes20:20
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ttxflaper87: difficult to mention since we didn't make any real change yet20:20
annegentlecross-project comms?20:20
ttxannegentle: same, we haven't reached a conclusion there20:20
lifelessthemes would be good20:20
flaper87sure, but we did come up with sort of a list. Or at least mention there's that effort going on20:20
lifelessI don't think we have to make the change to talk about it20:21
ttxannegentle: with you and Mike always being in some tropical island20:21
flaper87lifeless: yup, that's were I was coming from20:21
annegentlettx: wishful thinking, I just wrangle kids20:21
annegentleflaper87: lifeless: yeah I agree, mention early/often20:21
ttxalright... so let's say you post some draft and we'll add to it ?20:22
annegentlesounds good20:22
annegentleany other comms problems to tackle?20:22
annegentlethis release?20:22
ttxno I think we are good20:22
ttxas far as TC comms go20:22
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ttxok, next topic ?20:23
ttx#topic Project Team Guide workgroup report20:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Project Team Guide workgroup report (Meeting topic: tc)"20:23
ttx#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-crossproject-doc-the-way20:23
ttxWe discussed next steps for the project team guide at the Design Summit20:23
ttxThere are a number of topics we want to cover this cycle20:23
ttxlike better explain the benefits/tradeoffs for the various release models20:24
ttxor common principles like API deprecation rules or the fact that you can expect a DB and a oslo.messaging queue to be around20:24
ttx(and soon a DLM!)20:24
ttxWe want to explain tags and point to projects.yaml as well20:24
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ttxAnd finally document community best practices like IRC bouncers or gertty20:24
ttxAnd then explore the wiki for other things that should be moved to the guide20:24
ttxI'll drive most of this but would not mind help :)20:25
ttxMore recently a new question was raised in several reviews20:25
ttxThose are adding step-by-step instructions to setup new project git repositories, or moving them from the Infra guide "project creator guide" to the Project Team Guide20:25
ttxPersonally I would prefer if the project team guide focused on its original objective, which is to document the culture20:25
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ttxand did not turn into an instruction manual20:25
ttxBut that may mean we are missing a true "project setup guide" since this apparently doesn't belong on the Infra guide either20:25
ttxSuggestions on that ? Should we just create a new guide for that ?20:26
jeblairi thought we talked about that in the session too and the reception for moving it to the ptg was favorable...20:26
flaper87I wasn't able to attend the summit session but, just like in our previous project team guide sprints, I'm happy to help with this one.20:26
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jeblairttx: and i don't think the suggestion is to move git repo setup there...20:26
dhellmannhaving a proliferation of guides seems like it's going to make it harder to figure out where to put things, rather than easier20:26
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jeblairttx: the parts we're talking about moving there are things like "how do openstack projects use unit tests"20:27
annegentledhellmann: it's about the reviewers, not necessarily the publishing20:27
jeblairwhich seems like a good fid to the ptg for me20:27
jeblairgood git20:27
ttxjeblair: there are test setup instructions proposed around release notes that really sound like a chapter of the infra guide20:27
persiadhellmann: The converse issue is that if the PTG gets too long and too detailed, many people won't want to read or watch changes.20:27
annegentlenew swear phrase: "good git!"20:27
dhellmannannegentle : then let's get more reviewers? because it's also confusing for folks to find this information20:27
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sdagueyeh, and you don't get more reviewers by splintering projects20:27
dhellmannit would be useful to have one manual telling us how to do our work, even if it covers both theory and practice20:27
ttxjeblair: what's being proposed right now is a lot of code snippets and commands20:27
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sdagueit can be a dedicated chapter20:28
dhellmannwe could, you know, exhibit the trust we keep suggesting other projects show by letting more folks have +2 on the team guide20:28
jeblairttx: that seems like a new thing we didn't talk about then.20:28
flaper87I'm more for having it all in the same project/repo20:28
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sdaguedhellmann: ++20:28
ttxdhellmann: wouldn't hurt since I seem to be the only one reviewing those days20:28
annegentledhellmann: I think people want to publish this info, but in one case where a bunch of bug triaging info was added to the infra manual, that team didn't want to be responsible for reviewing it... I might be mixing guides here but I think it's an overall pattern. Small review teams, and small repos are fine, but publish to the same place20:28
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ttxjeblair: it is, which is why I'm asking20:28
dhellmannannegentle : right, I'm suggesting that more of that should go into the project team guide20:29
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ttxjeblair: please review what's being proposed, I think it clearly crosses the line from policy and principles to howto20:29
annegentledhellmann: ok yeah, and I think there's need for howto20:29
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annegentlettx: really I think there could be a howto chapter20:29
annegentlethat's another repo20:29
dhellmann#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack%2Fproject-team-guide+is:open,n,z20:29
annegentlethen we publish to one place20:29
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jeblairttx: can do20:29
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ttxannegentle: but then project setup instructions are split between infra guide and project team guide20:29
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dhellmannannegentle : splitting the repos makes it confusing for contributors. Let's just give the right folks +2 on this repo.20:30
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sdagueyeh, and it is git, we can always revert changes that might be bad20:30
ttxwhen I talk about a third repo, it's so that the project setup howto is in a unique location20:30
dhellmannttx: I'm OK with moving the release notes setup instructions to the infra manual, if that's where we're going to put *all* such instructions20:30
annegentledhellmann: ideally we'd put all such instructions in one repo, sure.20:31
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dhellmannttx: who would be the reviewers for that new repo?20:31
ttxdhellmann: and that is the issue. Only half the instructions live there right now20:31
annegentledhellmann: I was just mentioning that there was a bit of a problem with that20:31
ttxdhellmann: Anyone who cares20:31
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ttxCurrently, a project team wanting to set up a new project repository has to read the infra guide. And we are adding material to the PTG about setting up new repositories as well20:32
ttxI think that's confusing20:32
dhellmannttx: ok, maybe we should talk to fungi and the infra cores about (a) adding these directions to the infra manual and (b) giving +2 to more folks on that repo20:32
ttxI want everything in one place20:32
persiaSelecting reviewers is easy: start with this team, and watch who else reviews, etc., with regular additions, removals, etc.20:32
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ttxIf that's not in the Infra guide nor the PTG, then I'm fine with a third repo called project setup howoto20:32
jeblairhow about it goes in the reno repo?20:32
ttxI just want everything in the same place20:32
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dhellmannjeblair : reno is not openstack-specific20:32
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annegentlehm. jeblair is onto something though, about putting docs nearest to code20:33
dhellmannjeblair : also, you would have to know to look at the reno guide to manage release notes before you know what reno is20:33
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mordredI thnk that's one of the tricky bits20:33
ttxannegentle: we could put it in cookiecutter20:33
mordredit's "what are the things I should look at"20:33
mordredttx: same problem20:33
sdagueright, we need one starting point20:33
mordredttx: you have to know about cookiecutter20:33
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sdagueit sounds like that is PTG20:34
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ttxsome info is in the infra guide and will stay there20:34
sdaguebeing a starting point you need to either contain the info, or links to the info for everything else20:34
ttxsdague: we can always point to another guide from the PTG (or from the infra guide)20:34
mordredyah. I think release notes guide being in reno is fine (for instance) if the main guide says "we use reno for release notes"20:34
sdaguesure, but you need to tell people why they are going theere20:34
* annegentle doesn't know cookiecutter20:35
dhellmannmordred : we don't put the instructions for setting up CI in the zuul documentation. How is this different?20:35
mordredsimilar to "we use tox for driving virtualenv unit tests" and "we use testr as a test runner"20:35
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ttxand I'm fine with principles and policy to be in the PTG. I just don't want to turn something that is a policy guide into somethign only devs will read20:35
dhellmannthe reno guide has generic instructions, but we do have openstack-specific standards we need projects to follow for their jobs to work20:35
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mordreddhellmann: I think there needs to be a top-leve thing which tells people what general concepts they need to know20:35
mordredand yea20:35
sdaguettx: who do you expect the audience to be?20:35
mordredopenstack specific instructions on how to use the thing20:35
annegentledhellmann: ah ok20:35
ttxsdague: any project team20:36
annegentlesdague: it's about redirecting questions to a page, providing wider support nets than 1:1 Q:A20:36
mordredlike "for tox, please use skipsdist and use_develop and do not set system-packages to true"20:36
persiaI'd like the audience to also include any org that is becoming involved in openstack20:36
mordredthose are openstack specific things about a thing which has its own manual20:36
mordredif you just pointed to the tox manual, it would not help someone get started in the right way20:36
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dhellmannmordred : right, and in this case it's specific names of directories and tox environments20:36
sdaguemordred: right20:36
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jeblairthese are starting to seem like project team guide things to me.20:37
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ttxsdague: at the very minimum we should make sure it's all in a specific chapter, if it stays in the PTG20:37
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dhellmannI'm OK with that. I added these things to release team page because they seemed release related, but we could make a new chapter for them.20:38
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ttxWe could all put them in the "project setup guide" chapter that krotscheck has been pushing20:38
flaper87yeah, I'd make a new chapter for them20:38
jeblairthere's also the organizational question of: do we have 5 sections that each say "add this job to zuul" or one section that says "add these 5 jobs to zuul"?20:38
dhellmannsure, that makes sense20:38
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dhellmannjeblair : one page, several sections, because not all of this applies to every project20:38
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annegentleideally these are all "articles" in a guide that everyone can publish to... it's just that the overall TOC isn't really solved, yet.20:39
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ttxSince you all seem to have an opinion on what belongs to he PTg and what does not, it would be awesome if you could actually review the changes there.20:39
dhellmannjeblair : does the project creator's guide move from the infra manual to PTG?20:39
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dhellmannttx: +100020:39
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ttxbecause otherwise I'm inclined to ignore you20:39
mesteryttx: ++20:40
annegentlettx: for example we started a docs contributor's guide, but had many debates about whether it belonged in the infra manual20:40
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ttxand go with my own definition rather than try to guess yours and apply it20:40
annegentlettx: and I agree on the "please review" call but honestly we have to focus efforts -- and publish as easily as possible20:40
annegentlemy view is, publish as much as you want to review20:40
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jeblairttx: i'm #4 in reviews, does that count?20:41
ttxannegentle: I tend to agree that published somewhere is better than not publish at all20:41
ttxjeblair: it counts! I just felt very lonely lately20:41
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* flaper87 hugs ttx20:42
jeblairdhellmann: that's a really good question, and i don't have an immediate answer.20:42
ttxanyway, I think we have a way forward. Collect opinions on reviews, then worst case scenario include it in the pTG for the time being20:42
* flaper87 is guilty for not doing much reviews in PTG20:42
dhellmannjeblair : food for thought. I get that keeping it in the infra manual makes it easier to keep it up to date.20:42
jeblairflaper87: you're #3.20:42
annegentlego flaper87 go :)20:42
ttxI brag but I'm not even sure I'm #120:42
flaper87jeblair: holy crap... you suck at reviewing PGT20:42
* flaper87 ducks20:43
* dhellmann hands ttx an eclair20:43
ttxok, next topic ?20:43
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ttx#topic Next Tags workgroup report20:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Next Tags workgroup report (Meeting topic: tc)"20:43
ttx#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/mitaka-crossproject-next-tags20:44
ttxThis was mostly a feedback session where we brainstormed potentially useful tags20:44
ttxThe first set are the wrongly-named integration tags20:44
ttxi.e. tags to describe that a project for example has a horizon panel, a devstack plugin or heat resources20:44
ttxWe had one proposed by sdague for devstack last cycle but it got stuck on the question of whether to distinguish between mainline and plugin or not20:44
ttxSecond set are the team tags, we might still want a "large-team" tag at some point20:44
ttxThen we have contract/assert tags, which got a boost with the upgrade tags from Dan20:44
ttxSomeone suggested a API versioning assert tag20:44
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ttxprobably to back up mordred's "no more deprecation" call20:45
ttxNext we had QA tags, to describe the extent of testing done in each project20:45
ttxAnd finally horizontal team support tags (we might want a new one for stable branch team, and potentially others)20:45
ttxI don't think we formally need a workgroup to drive that anymore, since that wasn't very successful in Liberty... Feels like waiting until someone cares enough to propose one is good enough20:45
mordredI like waiting until people care20:45
ttxso I propose to disband the band of brothers20:45
mordredwe even get tags from people who have quit openstack that way20:46
ttx(and sisters)20:46
flaper87I felt that was pretty much the way it was working20:46
anteayattx: :)20:46
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ttxwe did one meetig and got one tag proposed. We got more just by nudging Dan Smith20:46
anteayathere's a workflow20:46
ttxso I won't bore you to death with next-tags WG progress repotrs anymore20:47
annegentleI do like that we saw tags proposed20:47
sdaguettx: ++ disband :)20:47
ttxyes we create committees, but we also KILL THEM20:47
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ttxthat said, if anyone is super-interested by one of the themes I just mentioned, feel free to dive in!20:47
ttx#topic Open discussion20:48
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:48
ttxAnything else ? Any outcome from the Design Summit that we need to work on to make happen ?20:48
ttxI feel like the DLM stuff is making slow and steady progress20:48
ttxCross-project comms overhaul is also on a track20:49
ttxmordred: what's the next step on the suggestion to never ever ever again deprecate an API ?20:49
mordredI thought lifeless was going to write up something20:50
ttxmordred, annegentle: we also signed up at the TC/BoD meeting to propose a slightly-modified mission statement20:50
sdagueso, along those lines - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/245745/ - holding meetings in #openstack-dev or not for cross project things20:50
mordredlifeless: right? or have I been drinking too much hibiki 21 again20:50
annegentlemordred: ttx: yep we sure did20:50
ttxsdague: good one20:50
mordredannegentle: I need to sync back up with you on that don't I?20:50
flaper87lifeless: are you?20:50
annegentlesdague: I'm -1 on it after thinking on it20:50
ttxhmmm... hibiki 2120:50
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annegentlemordred: there's an email... it has words in it...20:51
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ttxannegentle: I like words20:51
sdagueannegentle: ok20:51
sdagueannegentle: and your alternative is?20:51
annegentlesdague: it being #openstack-dev channel for cross project meetings. Probably fine for service-catalog though.20:51
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* annegentle clicked the link20:51
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sdagueannegentle: oh, right this was me trying to put our weekly checkpoint into irc20:52
annegentlesdague: I think meeting channels for meetings is better generally than picking a "room" channel20:52
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dhellmannannegentle : ++20:52
sdagueannegentle: sure, and they are all full20:52
ttxsdague: maybe it's time for #openstack-meeting520:53
jeblairi would prefer to keep discussion channels open for discussion and have meeting channels; i'm fine making more meeting channels, including a dedicated 'cross-project-meeting' channel (even if it's usually unscheduled)20:53
annegentlesdague: yeah let's stick with meeting channels, add more if needed. I think in the session we talked about #cross-project-meeting ?20:53
dhellmannwe hit a similar issue trying to move the release team meeting20:53
sdaguehaving a dedicated cross project meeting room seems good20:53
jeblairnew channels are pretty low-cost20:53
annegentlejeblair: ok, good20:53
lifelessmordred: I am writing something20:53
lifelessmordred: on the DLM side, its not on my todo to write20:53
flaper87lifeless: ++20:53
ttxsdague: I want to go on a clean-up rampage first20:53
lifelessmordred: I am writing other things ;)20:53
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sdagueespecially as the overall time contention would be less20:53
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sdaguebecause it won't be Nth subteam of new project20:54
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dhellmannttx: do we have meetings on the schedule that aren't happening?20:54
mordredlifeless: oh. piddle then20:54
flaper87lifeless: mordred so, no one is working on the "never ever ever deprecate APIs thing" ?20:54
ttxdhellmann: of course20:54
mordredttx: I guess I need to write a thing on the API topic20:54
mordredttx: I'll put that on my list20:54
lifelessflaper87: I'm working on a deprecation thing for libraries20:54
sdagueit would probably be good to have audit of existing meetings to parse the logs and figure out if they are happening20:54
flaper87lifeless: roger20:54
dhellmannttx: then yeah, we should clean that up and see if we still need another new channel20:54
jeblairmordred: "Never, ever, ever, ever deprecate an API."  hth20:54
mordredlifeless: yah - I totally thought you were going to write a thing on api deprecation because you were already writing the one for libraries20:54
sdagueand if they are happening if they are all really > 30 minutes20:54
sdaguebecause I expect there is a lot of over allocated time20:54
ttxrigt. I might take that action20:54
mordredlifeless: but I'm more than happy to write it20:55
edleafewait - I thought it was deprecate, but never remove?20:55
mordredlifeless: just wanted to make sure I wasn't stealing your fun20:55
mordrededleafe: yes20:55
mordrededleafe: that's what it actually is20:55
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edleafemordred: ah, just checking20:55
lifelessmordred: right, so I think in libraries we can remove, but it needs to be a long period20:55
jeblairgood thing i'm not writing it20:55
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sdagueok, so is there an #agreed that we'll build an openstack-meeting-cp ?20:55
flaper87mordred: I'm happy to help you but not sure I can take lead on that20:55
ttxjeblair: we need some way to check that a meeting has been happening often enough to justify blocking the slot20:55
lifelessmordred: lets compare notes and so on, bu t yes, differen tthings20:55
mordredflaper87: cool. I'll do a draft and sent it20:55
sdaguewhich will be dedicated for cross project meetings20:56
ttxjeblair: it's actually doable now that we have the meeting name strings encoded in the YAML20:56
edleafemordred: I can review too20:56
mordred"removing things shifts the burden of support from the devs to their users and is rude"20:56
jeblairttx: agreed, a tool to parse that and check eavesdrop.o.o seems feasible20:56
lifelessspeaking of hilarious deprecations, I had someone suggest today that a spec was *too strict* because it didn't allow for std-66 (URIs!) changing20:56
lifelessnot like thats been basically stable for decades....20:56
mordredlifeless: wow20:56
lifelessmordred: ayup. (see distutils-sig if you want the context)20:57
ttxjeblair: I'll try to go and free unused slots, and if I cant free enough of them we should create a new channel20:57
sdaguejeblair / ttx / annegentle: so, new meeting room?20:57
jeblairlifeless: it's actually a standard.  amazing.20:58
* dhellmann looks for mordred's volume knob20:58
ttxsdague: I'll take that action20:58
jeblairsdague: ++20:58
lifelessjeblair: I know right?20:58
* mordred hands a broken knob he found to dhellmann20:58
sdaguebecause I think unless we have a meeting space which is kind of reserved for cross project efforts, every time a new one spins up, finding a meeting time is going to be hard20:58
sdaguebecause all the time blocks are booked20:58
lifelesssdague: that may mean that you'll just have a raft of people conflicts20:58
jeblairsdague, ttx, annegentle: potential followup question -- should this meeting move to that channel? :)20:58
sdaguelifeless: it might20:58
ttxsdague: oh, a cross-project meeting room ? So if we don't reuse #openstack-dev I fear that room won't have the lurkers you're looking for20:59
sdaguejeblair: I think that would be fine20:59
annegentlettx: honestly it's better not to have only devs20:59
annegentlettx: for cross project work esp.20:59
ttxmaybe having the TC meeting there is a good way to make it a popular lurking spot20:59
* annegentle fires up https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/next-tc-blog-post 20:59
sdaguelifeless: I did look at all the things that were conflicting here, and there were mostly not any major ones20:59
dhellmannjeblair : all meetings in the new room are cross project, but not all cross project meetings are in the room20:59
ttxannegentle: the trick is.... people don't necessarily subscribe to new meeting channels20:59
sdagueand, this is intentionally just a checkpoint 30 minute bit21:00
ttx#openstack-meeting has 479 people21:00
sdagueit's mostly not expected for people to show up21:00
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ttx#openstack-meeting-4 has 18321:00
sdaguebut it's important to log21:00
ttxsdague: ok, I though random lurking was a property of #openstack-dev that made it attractive to hold crossproject meetings21:00
sdaguebecause the alternative is going to be people just not doing itin irc21:00
jeblairdhellmann: well, if the idea is that meeting conflicts are a proxy for people conflicts, then moving / having truly cross-project meetings there would be beneficial.21:00
ttxanyway, time is up21:00
ttxI'm closing this meeting but we could continue the discussion on -dev21:01
annegentlettx: still, we need to have meetbot, logs as well as keep "rooms" available for adhoc convos21:01
annegentlettx: heh21:01
dhellmannjeblair : I think I see your point21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 17 21:01:27 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-11-17-20.01.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-11-17-20.01.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-11-17-20.01.log.html21:01
ttxannegentle: saw what I did there ?21:01
ttxFor those following at home, the cross-project meeting was cancelled.21:01
ttx(for lack of agenda)21:02
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elmikoack, thanks21:02
Jokke_:) thanks ttx (surprisingly I saw the mail as well)21:02
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dims_thanks ttx21:03
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ttxwe can still use the empty room to broadcast random announcements I guess21:03
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jeblair< /dev/random21:04
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PietOpenStack UX and Neutron are doing a results presentation on Monday for the Nova Network / Neutron migration study21:08
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PietAny advice on how to communicate the date/time?21:09
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elmikoPiet: is the mailing list insufficient?21:10
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PietI'm thinking about using the distribution list?  Is that cool?21:11
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elmikonot sure, haven't used that one before21:12
ttxPiet: openstack-dev seems like the best bet. Make sure to ping thingee so that he includes it in the weekly digest21:12
Pietttx k21:12
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annegentlePiet: agreed on openstack-dev -- I think you'll find a lot of interest!21:20
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sputnik13harlowja is the meeting over?21:22
harlowjahmmm, did it ever start?21:22
sputnik13dunno, I just got here :)21:22
clarkb21:01:57        ttx | For those following at home, the cross-project meeting was cancelled.21:23
lifelesssputnik13: the cross proj^21:23
clarkbI think there was ML thread21:23
sputnik13oh, ok21:23
sputnik13clarkb lifeless thx21:23
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ttxno agenda, no meeting21:24
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