Tuesday, 2016-05-17

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yamamoto#startmeeting networking_midonet07:06
openstackMeeting started Tue May 17 07:06:41 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yamamoto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.07:06
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.07:06
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:06
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking_midonet'07:06
yamamoto#topic agenda07:07
*** openstack changes topic to "agenda (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:07
yamamoto#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NetworkingMidoNet07:07
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yamamoto#topic Announcements07:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:07
yamamotono announcements from me07:07
yamamoto#topic Bugs07:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:07
yamamoto#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/devstack/+bug/1582119 gate blocker bug07:08
openstackLaunchpad bug 1582119 in devstack "networking-midonet jobs are broken due to Q_L3_ENABLED "cleanup"" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to YAMAMOTO Takashi (yamamoto)07:08
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yamamoto#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316660/ a revert of the problematic devstack patch07:08
yamamoto#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316992/ attempt to workaround in midonet side07:09
yamamotoi'll continue bug deputy07:09
yamamoto#topic Open Discussion07:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:09
yamamotoi'd like to propose to make this meeting every two weeks07:10
yamamotoas there isn't much activity07:10
yamamotoi'll submit irc-meetings patch later.07:10
* yamamoto waiting for a few minutes before closing the meeting07:11
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"07:16
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 17 07:16:58 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)07:16
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-05-17-07.06.html07:17
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-05-17-07.06.txt07:17
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-05-17-07.06.log.html07:17
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Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 17 13:00:28 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
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Qimingif you have item to add to the agenda13:02
Qimingplease use this link: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda13:02
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Qimingas usual, let's check the etherpad first13:02
Qiming#topic netwon work items13:02
*** openstack changes topic to "netwon work items (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:02
Qiming#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-newton-workitems13:02
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Qimingblockers for scalability test13:03
Qimingwith experience sharing from CMCC on CCTC, I believe we can do something more13:03
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Qimingthe general suggestion is to have separate rabbitmq instances13:04
QimingI'm removing that item for now13:04
lixinhuiwhat okay13:04
lixinhuiOkay, Qiming13:04
Qimingtempest testing13:05
yanyanhuethan was working on it last week13:05
Qimingelynn has commited patch bug the gate is actively rejecting it13:05
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elynnI'm maintain an etherpad for tests we need13:05
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elynnand also submit a patch for enable gate for it.13:06
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elynnJust saw your comment, will change it later :)13:06
elynnAnd will continure to add rest tests, then negative tests.13:07
elynnThat's it.13:07
yanyanhujenkins_jobs.errors.JenkinsJobsException: Failed to find suitable template named '{pipeline}-senlin-dsvm-tempest-{test_type}-{backend}{job-suffix}'13:07
Qimingseems the job name is no good13:07
QimingI don't know what qualifies a good job name13:07
Qimingbut having cloud_backend name injected into that string is weird13:07
Qimingwe should have named the dummy backend just 'dummy' instead of 'openstack_test'13:07
yanyanhulooks like the job template definition is incorrect13:07
Qimingit is bad name13:07
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elynnoops , should change ] to }13:08
Qimingother than that, I'd also suggest we remove {backend} from the job name template13:08
elynnif remove {backend} from name13:09
QimingI don't think we need to do each test type using two or more backend drivers13:09
elynnHow do we pass the backend parameter?13:09
Qimingfor api_test, it will only use the dummy driver, that is fine13:09
yanyanhuhi, ethan, maybe we can tell it based on the test-type :)13:10
Qimingfor scenario test, we may need to do things with real drivers13:10
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yanyanhue.g. for api, default backend is dummy/openstack_test13:10
elynnokay , I get it.13:10
elynnThen I just judge the test_type and decide what kind of backend to use.13:10
Qimingeach test type has a goal, we don't need too many combinations13:10
Qimingsounds a life saver13:11
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Qimingso from etherpad, I can remove line 6-8, right?13:11
Qimingjust leave line 9 there, and remove it when gate is up13:11
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yanyanhuyes, I think so13:12
Qimingxinhui, do we have news on stress tests?13:13
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lixinhuiThese days13:14
lixinhuiI am packing everything together13:14
lixinhuiI prepare use the same test bed for a demo for integration between VIO and Senlin13:14
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lixinhuiafter that, we can continue the stress things13:15
Qimingyou mean you are building an end-to-end solution demo?13:15
lixinhuibased on the first item just discussed13:15
lixinhuijust first step13:15
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lixinhuiuse ansible to deoloy Senlin13:15
lixinhuiwith VIO together13:15
Qimingwould love to see how that works13:15
lixinhuistill some problems13:15
lixinhuifor the network settings in VIO env13:16
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Qimingask questions on IRC then13:16
lixinhuithanks in advance13:16
Qimingokay, ask your colleagues, not on IRC13:16
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lixinhuiboth I think :)13:16
QimingRally support ?13:16
Qimingpatch #301522 is there for some time now13:16
yanyanhuyes, didn't get time to work on it last week13:17
yanyanhuneed to pick it up13:17
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Qimingyes, it has been more than 40 days13:17
yanyanhuhope in next week, push a new patchset13:17
Qimingyou mean after May 24?13:17
yanyanhunope, the weeking from tomorrow :)13:18
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Qimingjust tried to clarify13:18
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Qimingneutron bug is still there, lixinhui ?13:19
lixinhuiyes, Qiming13:19
lixinhuitoday, I checked the code13:19
lixinhuiwill discuss with Kobi13:19
Qimingwould be nice you paste the bug link, we need to revisit it now and then13:19
lixinhuiwho is the neutron core13:19
Qimingbtw, I just spent this afternoon on the HA etherpad13:20
QimingPlease read, comment, fix, add ...13:20
lixinhuiwill read13:21
openstackLaunchpad bug 1548774 in neutron "LBaas V2: operating_status of 'dead' member is always online with Healthmonitor" [Undecided,Confirmed] - Assigned to Yang Yu (yuyangbj)13:21
lixinhuithis one13:21
lixinhuihealthmonitor does not update the status of member in v13:21
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Qimingthat is the critical feature we need13:22
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Qimingwe have completed the migration of senlin API doc from WADL to the new format13:22
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Qimingthx yanyan for the help13:23
yanyanhumy pleasure :)13:23
Qimingit still has some room for improvement for sure, but the content, look-and-feel are all in good shape13:23
Qimingem .. seems I need to write some other articles ...13:24
Qiminghaiwei_, are you working on improving the container profile?13:25
Qimingor, do you believe we can leave it as is13:26
Qimingerrhh... seems he is asleep?13:26
haiwei_I am thinking about shall we wait for Higgins or do by ourselves?13:26
QimingI'm signing up on the NODE_CREATE, NODE_DELETE rework13:27
Qiminghaiwei_, if you are asking my suggesion13:27
yanyanhuI guess it will take some time for higgins to provide basic support for container management13:27
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QimingI think we should do it using docker directly13:27
Qimingwhen higgins does provide an API to use, we add that as another driver13:28
haiwei_then we need to have a discuss on how to implement it, the impact to the existing code13:28
Qimingmy current feeling is that it will take a looooong time to get higgins up13:29
haiwei_I will rework the spec file13:29
Qimingokay, looking forward to a revision13:29
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Qimingline 32-38 was added by chuck13:29
yanyanhuagree. But hope higgins API can become stable ASAP, especially those interfaces for basic container management, e.g. CUDR13:30
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haiwei_by using docker api directly, most things are in my mind, still some issues are not sure13:30
Qiminghow about we work and discuss13:30
haiwei_yes, we can discuss in the spec patch13:31
Qimingyou know, there are many verbs for patchs: commit, abandon, merge and revert13:31
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haiwei_but if the new change will affect the existing API or database, shouldn't we be very careful?13:33
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Qimingthat is for sure13:34
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Qimingwe are not changing the existing API13:35
haiwei_maybe move to a new version 1.113:35
Qimingwe already have micro-version implemented13:35
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Qiminglet's see if we do need to change the API13:36
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Qimingif we do, we will need to ensure we NEVER break user land13:36
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Qimingthere are always a million items on the todo list, what we can do is to prioritize, work on them one by one13:37
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Qimingokay, that is all for things on etherpad13:39
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Qiming#topic open discussions13:40
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:40
Qiminganything you want to discuss?13:40
yanyanhunope from me13:41
elynnnothing from me.13:41
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lixinhuiNo for me13:41
haiwei_from the mail list, tacker seems doing auto-scaling things13:41
Qimingyes, I saw that13:42
haiwei_but they don't want to use seniln currently13:42
Qimingem, I have left some comments there13:42
Qimingbut we cannot force people to do this or that13:42
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haiwei_tacker has relationship to nfv, I will spend some time on it13:43
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haiwei_yes, want to learn their need first13:43
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haiwei_that is all from me13:43
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Qimingtbh, I really don't like the fact that people tend to ignore suggestions from "outsiders"13:44
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Qimingwe have learned our lessons in a hard way, and now they want to experience that again ...13:45
Qimingand ... if you are watching mailing list13:45
Qimingmagnum wants to reinvent a cluster management thing13:45
yanyanhuyes, saw that mail13:46
haiwei_have the link now?13:46
yanyanhuactually, senlin can help them achieve their goal13:46
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Qimingin a much easier way13:46
yanyanhuin easier way13:46
Qimingwith less effort13:46
elynnWhich mail?13:47
Qiminganyway, we did what we had to do13:47
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Qimingokay, if nothing else from you13:48
Qiminglet's call it a day13:48
Qimingthanks for joining13:48
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:48
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 17 13:48:46 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:48
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-17-13.00.html13:48
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-17-13.00.txt13:48
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-17-13.00.log.html13:48
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saggiHey all14:00
saggi#startmeeting smaug14:01
openstackMeeting started Tue May 17 14:01:15 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is saggi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: smaug)"14:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'smaug'14:01
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saggiAre we waiting for anyone?14:01
saggiDoes anyone know if yinwei wanted to attend?14:02
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xiangxinyongshe is sick14:02
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saggixiangxinyong: I've heard I've spoken with her today and she was feeling fine. But she probably doesn't want to over exert herself.14:03
saggiSo lets start14:03
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saggi#topic meeting time14:03
*** openstack changes topic to "meeting time (Meeting topic: smaug)"14:03
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saggiWe want to make the meeting weekly but in different times.14:04
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saggiI've sent an email to the mailing list but I didn't get a lot of responses.14:04
xiangxinyongi think the time is very suitable for the eastern side14:05
saggiDoes anyone have any objection to the suggestion of:14:05
saggi - 15:00 UTC for west, biweekly-even14:05
saggi- 09:00 UTC for east, biweekly-odd14:05
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saggiWe can always change it later14:05
zhonghua-leelooks good to me14:05
chenying__I think it is good.14:05
gampelsound good  to me14:05
saggiThen I'll submit a patch to change it.14:05
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xiangxinyongthanks saggi14:06
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saggiHopefully next week we'll have more west hemisphere people in here :)14:06
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saggi#action send patch to update meeting time (saggi)14:06
saggiIs the bot asleep?14:07
saggi#info test14:07
saggiLet's hope this is getting logged14:07
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zhonghua-leesaggi: :)14:08
saggi#topic Status updates14:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Status updates (Meeting topic: smaug)"14:08
saggiHe's just being selective14:08
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saggiAnyway, I just want to know what is everyone in china working on and to make sure no one is blocked.14:09
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xiangxinyongsaggi: you could take a look at this14:10
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gampelchenying can  you share about  Design and development of replication plug-in14:11
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chenying__I am working on the Integration Test on the master branch. It does not work now. Some patches need be merged.14:11
saggixiangxinyong: thanks, but not everyone has a task there.14:12
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xiangxinyongyeah. we will work on the important items first14:12
xiangxinyongdo you agree?14:12
saggichenying__: What patches?14:12
saggixiangxinyong: yes.14:12
gampelwhich patches , you mean end to end integration fullstack test14:12
chenying__luobin and hurong's plugins and workflow patches.14:13
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gampelthey are waiting for fixes on the comments14:13
chenying__eran some fullstack test are developmented by other gays.14:13
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chenying__After I finish the integration test on the master, These  fullstack test  can be submited.14:14
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chenying__Eran do you think I sould start working on  Design and development of replication plug-in?14:15
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gampeldid you submit the CI job ?14:15
chenying__The  important item task xiangxinyong list have not finished yes.14:15
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chenying__did you submit the CI job ? I have finished. I will submit later.14:16
xiangxinyongsorry, the above patches are about the fullstack14:16
gampelxiangxinyong: this are all the fullstack test , but what rae the test that are missing for the integration14:17
gampel"luobin and hurong's plugins and workflow patches."14:17
chenying__I have listed some on our irc channel.14:17
saggiyuval: What is the link to the trello board you opened.14:17
yuvalYou can join in this link:14:18
chenying__OK I will join it.14:19
xiangxinyongi have joined it14:20
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chenying__operation engine patches also need be reviewed and merged.14:21
xiangxinyonggampel: understood14:21
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saggiI'm still not sure what the best way to organize it is.14:22
saggiI'll think about it.14:22
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saggiBut we need a better way to coordinate.14:23
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chenying__As I konw, replication API in cinder only be implemented for admin. They are designing API for tenant in N.14:23
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saggichenying__: I've spoken with them in the summit. And our name is even in the spec. They will give us a service token that will allow us to do some admin action on behalf of the tenant.14:24
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zhonghua-leesaggi:trello is a good tool14:25
gampelchenying_: what are the reviews that are blocking you ?14:25
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xiangxinyongsaggi: what about using the etherpad to coordinate?14:25
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saggixiangxinyong: The history on etherpad is a bit obtuse so it's hard to track changes.14:26
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xiangxinyongsaggi: ok14:26
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saggiWe tried to use it but we noticed that someone might just make a big change and it will be hard to figure out why\what14:27
saggi#topic Task flow improvements14:27
saggiWe've spoken about it in the last meeting. We understand the the current patches are a bit hard to review and we are working on it.14:27
saggiBut apart from the deleted code we do need to know if there are any technical objections.14:27
saggiPlease try and ignore the deleted code and concentrate on the actual changes.14:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Task flow improvements (Meeting topic: smaug)"14:27
zhonghua-leesaggi: if we plan to use trello, as you said, should find a organization way. it just a tool14:27
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saggizhonghua-lee: I know14:28
zhonghua-leesaggi: :)14:28
gampelI agree lets see if some one have comment on the design , Yuval can you share  the spec14:29
saggizhonghua-lee: If you or anyone has any suggestions or can point me to a good trello board to get inspiration from please send me an email.14:29
yuvalsaggi: https://trello.com/inspiringboards14:29
chenying__<saggi>: I will focus on the design progress in cinder. And reivew the spec.14:29
saggiIt's important to note that some of the changes are as a result from use cases I got during the summit.14:29
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saggichenying__: Look up the replication spec. I've commented on it but see if there are things you want to ask them about it.14:30
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gampelare there any technical objections to the new TaskFlow workflow design by Yuval14:30
zhonghua-leesaggi: ok14:30
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chenying__saggi: OK14:31
xiangxinyongsaggi: perhaps we can discuss trello in the mailing list14:31
saggixiangxinyong: sure14:31
saggixiangxinyong: good idea14:31
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zhonghua-leexiangxinyong: +114:32
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xiangxinyongThanks. i can do it tomorrow14:32
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xiangxinyongswift guys are using the trello14:33
zhonghua-leexiangxinyong: a good coordination tool.14:33
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chenying__new TaskFlow workflow design, I think it is good. There are maybe lots of plugins refactoring work to do.14:34
saggiWill the changes introduced in yuval's patches effect testing?14:35
gampelare there any technical objections to the new TaskFlow/workflow design by Yuval  ? As saggi said we will fix the patch delete ...14:35
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gampeli think that it is critical that we agree on the design  and get comments from all the team14:36
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xiangxinyonggampel: i agree with you. it seems like a big change14:37
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gampelIt is a critical bottleneck , that will allow us to merge all the protection plugin14:38
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gampelI think that the design is good and we should push it in as early as possible , to avoid extra work later14:38
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chenying__ I think the changes may affect integration testing. Because  lots of plugins need be  refactored. could we do the  integration test using the old design.14:39
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gampelAll the new code is done by yuval and can be merged togther14:39
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saggichenying__: Does the integration test get that deep in the code?14:40
yuvalchenying__: do integration tests with the old design benefit us?14:40
gampelthe fullstack is testing the API layer14:40
gampelwe will merge the new design only once it does not break the fullstack14:40
yuvalAnyhow, we should pass the spec updates first14:41
gampelwe could merge the fullstack and then yuval could run local integration here and we will merge the code only when it pass fullstack14:41
chenying__I also think it is better using new design.  If we can  refactor the plugins ASAP. But now portect action does not work in the master branch yes.14:42
saggiyuval: +114:42
xiangxinyongmaybe we can merge these patches firstly. https://review.openstack.org/#/q/owner:luobin_smile%2540163.com+status:open14:42
chenying__we could merge the fullstack and then yuval could run local integration  It is a good idea.14:42
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yuvalwhat patches are missing for the fullstack?14:43
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yuvalchenying__: can you give the list?14:43
chenying__ It is a good idea. If yuval can do the  fullstack test in his local.14:43
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chenying__yuval: what list? fullstack test or patches?14:44
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yuvalchenying__: the patches required for the fullstack tests to start running14:44
yuvalchenying__: what patches block the full stack14:44
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chenying__wait a minute14:45
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gampelI think this is the list ? am I correct chenying__ ?https://review.openstack.org/#/c/287572/14:45
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xiangxinyongopen engine service14:46
xiangxinyongrestore workflow14:46
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xiangxinyongi think these patches are important for the fullstack test14:46
chenying__The resource graph walker listener https://review.openstack.org/#/c/287572/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316674/  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/303355/14:46
yuvalchenying__: right. thanks. everybody please make sure you review these 3 patches\14:47
chenying__I think portect action need these patches.14:47
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gampellets start with fullstack  only to the protection service14:47
chenying__If we want to test restore action we need more.14:47
gampelthis one https://review.openstack.org/#/c/287572/ need to be updated tomorrow by smile-luobin14:48
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xiangxinyonggampel: we will tell him tomorrow14:48
chenying__I will ask luobin to update  tomorrow.14:48
chenying__But sometime I also can not find him.14:49
saggiAlso, everyone, please email me patches that you think are ready for final review or are blocking your tasks. I will try and get to those first.14:49
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saggiStuff get lost in the clutter.14:49
gampelOk but anyway please review the spec we coudl merge it anyway if there are no comments14:49
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gampelOk we will try to focus on this 3 tomorrow , then we can merge the fullstack patches14:50
yuvalUpdated Trello with the patches to review14:50
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saggi#topic open discussion14:51
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: smaug)"14:51
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saggiAnything else before we finish for today?14:51
yuvalYes, if anyone didn't join the Trello, please do14:51
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chenying__Ok thanks I think if we have  fullstack job, we can start lots of optimization work.14:51
chenying__I have joined it.14:53
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saggiOK, than thanks everyone. hopefully in two weeks in an earlier time.14:54
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"14:55
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 17 14:55:03 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:55
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-05-17-14.01.html14:55
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-05-17-14.01.txt14:55
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-05-17-14.01.log.html14:55
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sridhar_ram#startmeeting tacker16:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 17 16:00:45 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sridhar_ram. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tacker'16:00
sridhar_ram#topic Roll Call16:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:00
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sridhar_ramHowdy folks !16:01
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: brucet: are you here ?16:01
sridhar_ramlets start...16:02
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sridhar_ram#topic Agenda16:02
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sridhar_ram#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Tacker#Meeting_May_17.2C_201616:02
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sridhar_rammain topic is alarm based monitoring & scaling...16:02
tung_doansridhar_ram: thanks16:03
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sridhar_ramwe can take the rest if we wrap up early on this subject..16:03
sridhar_ram#topic Alarm based VDU Monitoring & Scaling16:03
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sridhar_rambobh: are you here ?16:03
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, hi16:03
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: bobh: hi !16:04
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sridhar_ramFirst order of business to clarify the user stories for this features ..16:04
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sridhar_rambobh: can you please help to set the parameters of the end goal here ?16:04
bobhsridhar_ram: I think there is a long-term goal and multiple short-term goals to get there16:05
bobhsridhar_ram: the long-term goal is to be able to use ceilometer alarms to trigger auto-scaling of VDUs16:05
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bobhsridhar_ram: I think the components of that need to be (a) a ceilometer monitoring plugin16:05
bobhsridhar_ram: (b) a way to take advantage of auto-scaling support in heat16:06
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bobhsridhar_ram: and another important issue is how to model all of this in TOSCA16:06
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sridhar_rambobh: +1 on bring TOSCA template to articulate these features..16:07
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sridhar_rambobh: thanks...16:07
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sridhar_ramI was thinking even one level abstract..w/o bringing Ceilometer and Heat-Scaling...16:07
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sridhar_ram.. as we are designing TOSCA templates for these features...16:08
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sridhar_ramfyi, see this http://paste.openstack.org/show/497374/16:09
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sridhar_ramI like the idea of splitting this work into two specs.. (a) alarm based monitoring and (b) VDU scaling - both auto using (a) and manual16:10
bobhsridhar_ram: the scaling policy might need to be bundled into a monitoring_policy with action:scale16:10
bobhsridhar_ram: +116:10
sridhar_ramtung_doan: KanagarajM: brucet_: can you please chime on splitting the spec ?16:11
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tung_doansridhar_ram: Hi sridhar, can I mention to manual/autoscaling in my spec as some actions?16:12
KanagarajMunless we want to give control to user for what ever reason, to trigger the scaling,16:12
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brucet_Splitting manual and auto???16:12
brucet_Bad idea16:12
KanagarajMscaling could be part of moniotring policy16:12
sridhar_rambobh: sure, we can discuss abt which is the correct place for scaling policy.. I was thinking we could allow manual scaling even WITHOUT monitoring16:12
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bobhsridhar_ram: agree16:12
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bobhsridhar_ram: the scaling mechanism should be independent of manual/automatic16:13
sridhar_ramtung_doan: No, I would leave any scaling related things out of your spec.. as there is too much for one spec level content16:13
KanagarajMif that is the case, then scaling_policy could be outside and moniroing could refer it16:13
sridhar_rambrucet_: no, splitting alarm-based monitoring and any scaling related policy + actions16:13
brucet_How is that differentbthan what eists now?16:14
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, i would like to keep considering both while design the both the features though both could be splitted into two16:14
sridhar_ramthat way we have clear separation of end goal here and also developer ownership16:14
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: +2, absolutely...16:14
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sridhar_ramthe design should be cohorent across these two specs.. they need to leverage each other..16:15
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KanagarajMyes, perfect !16:15
sridhar_rambrucet_: today we have mushed these two non-trivial functions into one spec... it is getting hard to see a clear picture16:16
bobhsridhar_ram: +216:16
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KanagarajMwe could carry out the both the spec simultanesous, after agreeing up on the dependecy among them, like meta-data settings,16:16
brucet_Triggers and actions need to be part of one overall architecture16:17
brucet_I can't say what that means in terms of specs16:17
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: sure.. scaling spec can test manual scaling until alarm based spec is ready16:17
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brucet_Monitoring creates triggers / events16:17
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, sure.16:18
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brucet_Scaling is an example of an action based on that event16:18
sridhar_rambrucet_: as you see in the http://paste.openstack.org/show/497374/ the first spec - alarm based monitoring driver should focus on VDU monitoring and triggering existing actions (respawn, log)16:18
sridhar_ramtung_doan: what do you think ?16:18
brucet_That one approach / architecture that cn be used16:19
brucet_There are others16:19
KanagarajMbrucet_, yes, in alarm-monitor-driver, scale_in/out could be different actions, in addition to the exsting actions16:19
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: =116:19
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tung_doansridhar_ram: I still think it is possible to mention to scaling as a policy in monitoring driver16:19
KanagarajMwhen scale_xxx, scaling policy needs to given as params16:19
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tung_doansridhar_ram: monitoring diver can support multiple policies16:20
brucet_I think we need one overall architecture for Tacker based events and actions16:20
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KanagarajMthis will hold good with existing approach16:20
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brucet_A heat based event / action implementation should be part of that architecture16:21
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brucet_A Tcker monitoring driver based event / action implementation should be another part16:21
sridhar_ramtung_doan: from implementation point of view, my understanding is you'll have a lot to cover for alarm / ceilometer based monitoring16:21
brucet_Then the two mechanisms can interact16:21
KanagarajMbrucet_, yes, and as we decided to split the scaling and monirotring, triggering in heat needs to be via resource-signal command16:21
brucet_Not necessarily16:22
KanagarajMinstead of heat webhook16:22
brucet_Both are valid16:22
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KanagarajMthe reason is, tacker creates the scaling stack, monitoring stack, so tacker could directly siganl it16:22
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KanagarajMno need to depends on the webhook url.16:23
tung_doansridhar_ram: what actions can be mentioned in my spec, sridhar?16:23
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brucet_Heat webhook is a valid option for signaling events. So is triggers within a Heat stack itself16:23
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: for now "log" action makes most sense...16:24
tung_doansome actions i can see are log, repspawn, scaling....16:24
KanagarajMbrucet_, while tacker can directly signal the scaling stack, its better option16:24
brucet_Both are valid options16:24
KanagarajMrather than using webhook16:24
brucet_IMHO, we should not create an architecture that precludes either16:24
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KanagarajMbrucet_, both are valid approach, but i prefer the siganling over resource-signal16:24
sridhar_ramtung_doan: this suggestion is purely a divide and conquer.. once you are done w/ alarm based monitoring, you can continue to participate in the scaling related work items...16:25
KanagarajMas tacker is the owner of those stacks, its perfect option to resource-signal16:25
brucet_If we agree that both approaches are valid, then we don't need to debate which is "better"16:25
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tung_doansridhar_ram: Ok... but it still can support scaling if possible, right?16:26
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brucet_sridhar_ram: I suggest we focus on overall architecture first. Then break up the specs16:26
sridhar_ramtung_doan: No, lets leave the scaling to the 2nd spec...16:26
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KanagarajMbrucet_, while desiging, its better to go with the right option, i believe.16:27
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KanagarajMbrucet_, sure. for spliting, i guess, the last patch set could be direclty splited into two16:27
KanagarajMone for scaling and another for alarm-monitor16:28
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sridhar_ramFolks - I'm trying to put - on the fly - an etherpad to use TOSCA as the way to describe the scope for these two specs...16:28
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brucet_My main point here is that I think we need an overall arch for Monitoring / Events and Actions (scaleup, scaledown, etc)16:28
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sridhar_ramAs you see in the etherpad.. alarm mon spec should focus on TOSCA related to alaram based monitors16:31
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sridhar_ramtranslating that to heat ceilometer .. and based on the callback invoke the Action16:31
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram, yes, by adding scale specific param16:32
sridhar_ramtung_doan: skipping scaling in this first iteration will help to keep the focus and get this piece correctly16:32
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tung_doansridhar_ram: Ok...16:33
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sridhar_rambobh: what do you think on a split like this ?16:33
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bobhsridhar_ram: looks good to me16:34
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram, i feel that we could take them simultaneuosly16:35
bobhsridhar_ram: the monitors should be independent of the actions, yet be able to invoke whatever actions are provided by the interface16:35
KanagarajMas the depenecies are spoted out already16:35
KanagarajMbobh, yes, that is the way i felt16:35
sridhar_rambobh: +116:35
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: we sure can start the spec in parallel..16:36
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: however, for scaling it will be good to go "behind" alarm-based monitor16:36
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: all this doesn't stop any of us from coding away ;-)16:36
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram, i guess, we wanted to to give it for manual trigger from user16:37
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: yes, that would be testable earlier w/o alarm-based monitor16:37
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram, yes.16:38
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: we can split the patchsets coming out of scaling into two16:38
sridhar_ram(a) manual scaling - no dependency16:38
sridhar_ram(b) alarm based mon trigger - has dependency on alarm work items16:38
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: any concerns ?16:38
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, let us choos the appraoch on how to create the alarm via heat or direclty?16:39
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brucet_sridhar_ram: Will there be a time to discuss the alternative arch slides I put together??16:39
tung_doansridhar_ram: (b) look good to me16:39
sripriyaKanagarajM: i had the same question, interested to know if tacker needs to talk to ceilometer directly or we just invoke heat to create resources16:40
tung_doanbrucet_: yes, I hope16:40
KanagarajMvia heat gives one advantage , tomorrow if we want to auto-scale direclty via heat without tacker comes in while scaling16:40
KanagarajMsripriya, yes. its better to decide the option :)16:41
sridhar_rambrucet_: the current approach does involve ceilometer and heat16:41
brucet_OK. I'll go now16:41
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sripriyaKanagarajM: i believe tacker would still need to control some of ceilometer alarms to trigger non heat actions as well16:42
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: tung_doan: It will be nice to get some clarity there for sure... direct ceilometer vs heat ceilometer resources16:42
sridhar_ramwhat are the pros & cons ?16:42
KanagarajMsripriya, we are taking complete control on the triggering part in tacker, but it would help tomorrow to enable auto-scaling if we opt16:43
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, in the last patch-set i have mentioned the options16:43
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, these*16:43
KanagarajMonce we decide the option, then alarm-monitor is clear now i believe16:44
sridhar_ramtung_doan: do you've any preference on direct ceilometer vs heat based ceilometer ?16:44
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vishwanathjwould there be any impact to end users/operators depending on the approach?16:45
tung_doansridhar_ram:  I think direct ceilometer is suitable16:45
tung_doansridhar_ram:  we can setup many policies..16:45
KanagarajMAnd noe more, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/306562/5/specs/newton/alarm-based-monitoring-driver.rst line 154 is mandatory, on either via heat or ceilometer16:45
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: you mean, more that one alarm per VDU and different actions for each of them ?16:47
sridhar_ram*more than16:47
sripriyaKanagaraM: for auto scaling action it makes perfect sense to leave it as a heat resource, i'm thinking if an user wants to use ceilometer based alarms to perform custom actions without heat dependency16:47
tung_doansridhar_ram:  right, sridhar16:47
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KanagarajMtung_doan, all these options are vailable in heat ceilometer resource type as well16:47
sridhar_ramtung_doan: that's interesting.. I like it (as an operator :)16:47
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sridhar_ramokay.. here is what I propose...16:48
tung_doansridhar_ram:  yeah, it is more flexible16:48
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, another reason, i would think of is, most of the orchestration, if we levarage from heat, it will reduce the depenecy of the more services (ceiloemeter) in the tacker16:48
sridhar_ramlets use the  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/306562 for alarm based monitoring.. I'm assuming tung_doan you are going to be the lead author / developer16:48
sripriyatung_doan: sridhar_ram: we will need to monitor network resources given that we have SFC coming in, neutron ports can be monitored for existance16:49
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KanagarajMotherwiseguy, both tacker and heat would does the same and it will be of redunt things across16:49
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: can you start a new BP and spec for tacker scaling with a scope for both auto & manual ?16:50
tung_doansripriya: right.. that is what I want to do with alarm based monitoring driver16:50
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, sure, i will strip of scaling things from current spec16:50
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, and submit a new spec on it16:50
sridhar_ramsripriya: agree, I really feel we are scratching the surface on various feature combinations here .. this area is surely a multi cycle evolution16:51
sridhar_ramwe are just getting started :)16:51
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram, yes, but its always better to leavarge things from existing things instead re-invest the wheels :)16:51
tung_doansridhar_ram: the quesiton is you have any concern with alarm-based monitoring driver in yor spec?16:51
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: I'd also like to discuss Senlin within that scope for the auto-scaling spec.. but that is for another day16:51
tung_doanKanagarajM: the quesiton is you have any concern with alarm-based monitoring driver in yor spec?16:52
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: no, in fact you should bring back your contents from the earlier revision and make it focused on alarm16:52
KanagarajMtung_doan, yes, how the alarm wil be created16:53
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: It will be nice to document both the options in your spec and select one as the way forward...16:54
* sridhar_ram notes about 5 mins left16:54
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram, tung_doan if we decied to go directly use ceilometer, my only concern is, we are adding depency on ceilometer in taker while it can be done via heat. (reduce mainatance & givens more option for auto-scaling in futyre)16:54
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, sure. let us take forward from specs. i felt its good discussion16:55
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: I've similar concerns but I'd like to hear any functional advantage that tung_doan pointed out.. we can take this up in tung_doan's spec16:55
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, sure.16:55
sridhar_ramtung_doan: again, are you fine w/ this approach to focus your spec on alarm based monitoring ?16:56
tung_doansridhar_ram: np. I will try16:56
sridhar_ramgreat.. !16:57
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KanagarajMtung_doan, kindly don't mind, i have update the last patch set to set the ground for the todays meeting16:57
tung_doanI will update my spec ASAP16:57
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sridhar_ramI wish brucet was here to desc his alternative approach ... how different from what we have penciled in there16:57
KanagarajMtung_doan, which helped.16:58
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: thanks sooooo much for staying late.. close to 2am there16:58
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: same for you too .. late there as well16:58
tung_doansridhar_ram: np. :)16:59
KanagarajMtung_doan, great !!!16:59
sridhar_ramlets wrap for today..16:59
KanagarajMsridhar_ram, yeah, but nope :)16:59
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sridhar_ram#topic Open Discussion16:59
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:59
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sridhar_rambye everyone!16:59
sripriyathanks all16:59
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 17 16:59:57 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-17-16.00.html17:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-17-16.00.txt17:00
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-17-16.00.log.html17:00
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mmedvede#startmeeting third-party17:02
openstackMeeting started Tue May 17 17:02:17 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mmedvede. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"17:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'17:02
mmedvedeanyone around for third-party working group meeting?17:02
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ja3moin moin17:03
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mmedvedehi ja317:04
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ja3anything happnin?17:05
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mmedvedeja3: no, there isn't really an agenda for today. Let's see if more people show up17:06
ja3same agenda as last time, I'm guessing?17:06
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mmedvedeja3: do you have anything to discuss, otherwise short meeting17:07
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ja3short meeting then I guess.17:07
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ja3we're triggering off of nova now, but dealing with our own issues still17:08
ja3i.e. not voting.17:08
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mmedvedeja3: what kind of issues?17:08
mmedvedestability in general?17:08
mmedvedehey asselin_17:08
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mmedvedeasselin_: so I am thinking to end the meeting unless you have something17:11
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ja3nope. nobody here but us chickens.17:12
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:13
asselin_nothing to add today17:13
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 17 17:13:36 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:13
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-05-17-17.02.html17:13
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-05-17-17.02.txt17:13
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-05-17-17.02.log.html17:13
mmedvedethanks for showing up, ja3, asselin_17:14
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ja3our issues are, in part, exposing implementation bugs due to stress/timing.  they're gating us from scaling up further.17:14
ja3basically they cause random-looking failures, from tempest's point of view.17:14
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mmedvedeja3: stability problems, they are hardest to debug17:14
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mmedvedeja3: if you find something, please let me know. We also sometimes have random-looking failures start to pop up17:16
ja3well, yes and no.  z tends to be better than average at FFDC.  the first hurdle was getting past some people's "oh that must be a tempest/python/openstack/NIH problem".  I think that bridge has been crossed now.17:16
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ja3if they really are upstream and not our plugin, sure.  remember we have a much larger curtain since we're not libvirt-based, and a whole crowd of people (components) behind the curtain.  kvm is a very different flow.17:17
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mmedvederight, it is probably different underlying problem17:18
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henrynashbonsoir, mes amis18:00
stevemar#startmeeting keystone18:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 17 18:00:57 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:01
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stevemarcourtesy ping for ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, MaxPC, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tjcocozz, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek18:01
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stevemarjaugustine: that's the kind of excitement we need to see!18:01
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stevemarcritical mass achieved, let's start18:02
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stevemar#topci release update18:02
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stevemar#topic release update18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "release update (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
stevemar#link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html18:02
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stevemarwe are currently in week R20, it counts down to the end of the release, so 20 weeks left18:02
ayoungCODE FREEZE!18:03
stevemarwe should be cleaning up any old issues from mitaka and preparing for newton-118:03
stevemarno where near that time yet :)18:03
stevemarbut the next deadline is R18, in 2 weeks18:03
stevemarthere are 2 things happening that week18:03
stevemarnewton-1 milestone driver18:03
ayoungdid the M mean Milestone or Mitake?18:04
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stevemarand that's the spec *proposal* freeze week18:04
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stevemarayoung: it's N1 this time around, the letter changes18:04
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stevemarso in 2 weeks: newton-1 driver, and spec *proposal* freeze18:04
stevemarthe latter meaning, if you want a spec for newton, propose it soon!18:05
stevemarit doesn't have to merge in 2 weeks, just be proposed and a reviewable state18:05
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stevemarany questions about dates?18:05
dolphmwhen is code freeze18:06
stevemardolphm: all dates are here: http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html18:06
stevemardolphm: keystone is following the general feature freeze, which is R518:06
stevemarin 15 weeks18:06
stevemardolphm: good?18:07
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* topol just rsvp'd for the midcycle.. dont forget18:07
stevemarif anyone has questions, bug me in -keystone18:07
stevemartopol: on that note...18:08
stevemar#topic midcycle update18:08
*** openstack changes topic to "midcycle update (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:08
stevemarnotmorgan: ^18:08
ayounganyone want to got rockclimbing in Yosemite either before or after the midcycle?18:08
notmorgan#link https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1To2qx90Am4hcYdgaqTkRosfNOzxr26M0GiahhiWgAJU/viewform?c=0&w=118:08
notmorganRSVP Form ^18:08
topolnotmorgan is there a recommended hotel18:08
notmorganSign up. we have 35 slots.18:08
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notmorgantopol: no, please feel free to update the wiki/ether pad if you have recommendations...18:08
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notmorgantopol: sec getting those links too18:09
samueldmqhi all18:09
notmorgan#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/KeystoneNewtonSprint18:09
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notmorgan#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-newton-midcycle18:09
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notmorganthe RSVP form will be used as the authoritative source of "who is coming" for planning purposes18:09
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rderoseis this the official rsvp form:18:10
rderose#link https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1To2qx90Am4hcYdgaqTkRosfNOzxr26M0GiahhiWgAJU/viewform?c=0&w=118:10
notmorganrderose: yes.18:10
dolphmrderose: yes18:10
dstaneknotmorgan: we need a slot count down18:11
notmorganplease take a second and thank Cisco for hosting us *and* cburgess for helping set that up18:11
notmorgandolphm: 35 spots.18:11
henrynashayoung: one way of reducing the attendee count….18:11
lbragstadcburgess thanks!18:11
dolphmdstanek: oh, you mean visibility into remaining number of slots?18:11
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jamielennoxyea, also hotel recomentdation would be useful18:11
dstanekdolphm: yes, exactly18:12
dolphmthere are ** 23 ** slots remaining for the midcycle18:12
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notmorgansince i know next to nothing about San Jose area... [sorry], I'm going to ask folks who are more familiar for hotel recommendations18:12
ayoungStay in San Francisco and take Caltrains?18:12
notmorganayoung: long ride, but doable.18:12
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dolphmthere's a couple hotels within a decent walking distance, but we'll probably need a few cars anyway, given it's san jose18:13
notmorgandolphm: yes.18:13
gyeeyou can take VTA18:13
lbragstadnearby hotels ^18:13
gyeeI think VTA cover that area18:13
ijwEarwigging, here, but I've done that ride and unless you like hours on the train it's not good18:13
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stevemarthanks lbragstad18:13
gyeeCaltrain is like an hour away from SF18:14
notmorganlbragstad: please add that to the wiki.18:14
lbragstadnotmorgan ok18:14
ijwYou can Caltrail to and VTA from Mountain View - it's not impossible - but that's another half an hour or so depending on here specifically you'll be18:14
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gyeeLevi stadium is nearby so there are a bunch of hotels there18:14
roxanaghe_ijw, I'm doing Caltrain everyday - it's not that bad :)18:14
stevemarhyatt's are usually nice, and nearby there18:14
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dstaneki think staying close would be much easier18:15
ayoungNavy Lodge Moffett If you are DoD18:15
notmorgani added wiki link to the RSVP form18:15
ijwThere's a Hyatt House on First that comes recommended, the Crowne Plaza, and the Hilton Garnden Inn and Larkspur Landing, all in the reasonable vicinity18:15
henrynashayoung: The hanger at Moffet if you are NASA18:15
notmorganayoung: doens't google also rent that out now? :P18:15
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notmorganok anyway18:15
notmorganthats the info18:15
ayounghenrynash, there is an Armory Floor not too far away if you are Army National Guard.  I used to drill out of there.18:16
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topolI believe I stayed at the Santa Clara Marriott. Its nice18:16
stevemarthanks ijw and notmorgan18:16
henrynashtopol: used to be next to Great America….18:16
ayounggyee, dibs on your couch.18:16
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gyeeCasino M8trix :-)18:16
notmorgananyone have an issue with making the results of RSVP public?18:16
henrynash(that was not a Trump reference)18:17
notmorgani can add it to the wiki as well.18:17
henrynashnotmorgan: fine by me18:17
stevemarnotmorgan: nope18:17
notmorganwill do18:17
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lbragstaddstanek ++18:17
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stevemarbug notmorga if folks have questions :P18:19
notmorgan#link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qTupqEyYwXnNnO-sW0kRhh-I9hvpPHA7QAuewXnw6AA/edit?usp=sharing18:19
stevemar(fine fine, i'll be around too)18:19
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stevemaron to more contentious topics!18:19
stevemar#topic Specify ID for Project or domain creation18:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Specify ID for Project or domain creation (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:19
stevemaramakarov ^18:19
stevemaragrebennikov is missing :(18:19
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amakarovThe question is: why do we unconditionally overwrite project ID on creation?18:20
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amakarovIs there some reason behind it or is it a bug?18:20
lbragstadamakarov as in you can't create a project with a project ID that you pass in?18:21
samueldmqI think that's what we do everywhere else ?18:21
jamielennoxchange question -why should you ever specify an id up front?18:21
samueldmqjamielennox: ++18:21
dstanekjamielennox: ++18:21
gyeeI think the argument was IDs are supposed to be globally unique18:21
amakarovjamielennox: the actual case: multiDC env18:21
rderosegyee: yeah, and we want to control that18:22
dstaneki don't like that we can do that in some places18:22
samueldmqgyee: good point18:22
dolphmamakarov: to guarantee that project IDs are globally unique and immutable, we don't accept user input for them. project names are mutable, not globally unique, and user-defined18:22
notmorganso, i dislike specifying it - if we are doing this it can be ADMIN only18:22
amakarovif we create projects and roles with the same ID - the tokens are valid across DC18:22
notmorganand it still must conform to automatic such as uuid18:22
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gyeeto play the devil's advocate, we've already allowed "shadow" users, why not shadow other things?18:22
notmorganso there is one other reason this is important18:23
dolphmif we all understand the consequences on federation and whatnot, i'm open to breaking that convention18:23
jamielennoxgyee: shadow users doen't let you pick the user's id18:23
lbragstadbut shadow users doesn't allow a user to specify the id of their user18:23
samueldmqnotmorgan: so no big advantage besides knowing it ahead of time (and it stil can fail at cretion time!)18:23
notmorganin some cases you need to restore a project after deletion18:23
amakarovnotmorgan: we still ok with that in v218:23
gyeejamielennox, at least to agree on a global ID18:23
notmorganamakarov: default domain is special, and i always treat it as such18:23
jamielennoxgyee: no, it creates an id for you as does project18:23
lbragstadamakarov what's the use case for specifying an ID for a project?18:23
gyeeright, with a specific algorithm18:23
notmorganlbragstad: ^ 2 reasons18:23
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rderoselbragstad: ++18:23
jamielennoxgyee: no, uuid18:24
notmorganlbragstad: 1) restore a deleted project18:24
ayoungthis is going to be like Nova hooks isn't it, where someone brings up an old feature and the core immediately deprecates it?18:24
notmorganand maintain the id.18:24
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ayoungwell, excpet V2 is already deprecated18:24
notmorgan2) same id across deployments (keystones)18:24
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notmorgani would not make it a "normal" action anyone can do.18:24
notmorganin either case.18:24
amakarovlbragstad: if you need to authZ in different clouds with a single token18:24
lbragstadin order for 2 to work you'd have to have the identity backend shared anyway18:24
ayoungnotmorgan ++18:24
raildoayoung: v2 is deprecated18:24
dstaneknotmorgan: if you did then it may be a security issue18:24
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ayoungraildo, doesn't change the fact that Nova core hates me.18:25
raildoI think we have good use cases to make this happen18:25
notmorgandstanek: exactly, it, if anyting is an Admin-only thing18:25
raildoayoung: I know :(18:25
ayoungI have an abandonded spec18:25
rderosenotmorgan: why do you need the same id across deployments?18:25
samueldmqlbragstad: ++18:25
dstaneknotmorgan: cloud admin?18:25
gyeejamielennox, I see, but they are still using their native ID for auth, no?18:25
amakarovrderose: ^^ my answer to lbragstad18:25
ayoung#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/203852/18:25
notmorganrderose: a lot of deployers want the same project id in multiple AZs that are managed by different keystones18:25
notmorganrderose: not my choice/reasoning, just echoing the reasoning18:25
rderosenotmorgan: ++18:26
notmorganrderose: the "restore a project" reason is why i support it18:26
jamielennoxi wouldn't even say this is an admin only thing, if your use case is restoring a deleted project then at best it's a keystone-manage feature18:26
dstanekamakarov: can't you do that in a more federated approach?18:26
notmorganrderose: and that is a break-glass scenario18:26
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notmorganbut should be doable via the API not DB manipulation18:26
amakarovdstanek: no, as federation is currently in demo state :)18:26
gyeedemo state!?18:26
notmorgandstanek: i'd make it a cloud-admin thing for sure.18:26
dstanekamakarov: ?18:26
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notmorgandstanek: if i was implementing it. not a domain admin thing18:26
raildonotmorgan: via API ++18:27
rderosenotmorgan: but if you create a project, get the id, then you can do the restore use case?  right?  why would you need to specify the project id in that case?18:27
stevemarnotmorgan: lol18:27
ayoungnotmorgan, Ubikey failuer\\re?18:27
amakarovgyee, dstanek: it lacks, for example, grops shadowing18:27
stevemarayoung: yes18:27
* ayoung imagines Q-Bert18:27
samueldmqbut please don't say it's demo state, people worked hard on it18:27
samueldmqand still do18:27
dstanekamakarov: i think it would be better to make federation fit this, rather than do this one-off thing18:27
lbragstaddstanek ++18:28
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stevemar`make federation great again`18:28
amakarovunfortunately agrebennikov is away, but he exposed it very clear on design session18:28
notmorganayoung: yes. i need to fix that18:28
lbragstadstevemar --18:28
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notmorganayoung: i keep bumping the OTP button.18:28
notmorganwhen i move the laptop18:28
jamielennoxagreed, i can see the break-glass case of restore a project via -manage, but for cross DC you are needing to do some sort of federation18:28
ayoungnotmorgan, 3 more of those and Ithink I'll be able to crack the seed.18:29
dstanekamakarov: can you get together a list of things the current federation implemenation is missing?18:29
lbragstadyeah - each kesytone across DCs is going to require access to the same identity backend (which naturally fits the federation story)18:29
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rderoselbragstad: agree, but is there a big demand for this?18:30
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rderoseI mean, do we want to give this a priority now?18:30
amakarovdstanek: I agree about that approach in theory, though we can solve many problems easily and I don't see why we can't do that right away18:30
notmorganayoung: good thing i don't use that OTP for anything18:30
amakarovWhat will it break?18:30
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dstanekamakarov: the wrong solution right away isn't necessarily good18:30
lbragstadi think it's more of losing control18:30
amakarovdstanek: why is it wrong?18:30
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dstanekamakarov: i dislike specifying ids18:31
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dstaneki would be -2 if users could do it, but i'm still -1 for cloud admins18:31
dstaneki like jamielennox's idea of a manage command if that is actually needed18:31
notmorgandstanek: sure.18:32
amakarovdstanek: ok, what is the suggested way to create/use projects based on LDAP groups?18:32
ayoungdstanek, its an RBAC thing regardless18:32
samueldmqwhat guarantee keystone will accept the ID the user passes ?18:32
notmorgandstanek: a break glass method that isn't "edit the DB" is what i look for in solving the "restore" a project/domain18:32
notmorgandstanek: i'd support that.18:32
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henrynashdtsanek, jamielennx: ++ agree on the keystone manager cmd18:32
ayoungthat is the wrong security model18:33
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ayoungthat means people who have access to the machine18:33
ayoungyou don't want to push people to do that in the course of manageing the applicaiton18:33
lbragstadrderose i think we'd need to see a list of short comings in the federation implementation in order to prioritize18:33
jamielennoxayoung: if we're restricting the operation to the cloud-admin they they have access to the machine18:33
stevemarlbragstad: yep18:33
rderoselbragstad: good point18:33
jamielennoxif you need to do this operation often enough that logging onto the machine is a problem you are doing management wrong18:34
ayoungjamielennox, we are doing management wrong.  Its called Keystone18:34
ayoungwe delete a project and all of the resources out there are orphaned18:34
samueldmqI think we need a well described use case, and how we would support it via federation (waht's missing as lbragstad said)18:34
amakarovayoung: ++18:34
lbragstadwe emit notifications on resource changes18:34
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jamielennoxayoung: so we need to have a look at keystone's delete project?18:35
jamielennoxdeprecate in favour of disable?18:35
amakarovmore to say, looks nobody even dare to touch this topic publicly :)18:35
ayounglbragstad, and we have no standard workflow engine so that is not sufficient18:35
notmorganjamielennox: no soft deletes.18:35
ayoungjamielennox, gyee has  been saying that for years18:35
notmorganjamielennox: i'm ok with "never remove from the db"18:35
jamielennoxbut a full on restore the db entry is also a bad idea18:35
gyeeresource life-cycle management18:35
notmorganjamielennox: soft-delete implies "could be hard-deleted"18:36
ayoungI'm just afraid it is closing the barn door after the horse is long gone18:36
jamielennoxnotmorgan: meh, we have an enabled flag on projects, it's essentially a soft delete18:36
gyeethat's production operation stuff18:36
stevemari think we're mixing things up here, amakarov doesn't necessarily care about the 'restore a project' if deleted case18:36
gyeesomething we don't use often enough :-)18:36
notmorgani'm 100% ok with nevre removing it as a delete instead.18:36
dstanekwe should do event sourcing18:36
amakarovstevemar: yes18:36
ayounganyway,  keep it as a restricted operation.  We can make it wider exposed later so long as it is RBAC managed18:36
samueldmqstevemar: ++18:36
notmorganok lets set "restore" to the side18:36
stevemarso let's put the whole manage command, and soft delete discussion to the side18:36
notmorgani'll propose something separate for that18:36
notmorgani have an idea and i think it'll work just fine.18:37
ayoungYou guys are missing the fact that notifications are currently a disaster, so we can't notify untrusted services18:37
samueldmqayoung: let's fix it, but it's still part of the other conversation :)18:37
amakarovwell, let me put it this way: how can I provide a customer the UX when he auth in 1 cloud (in horizon) and then works with resources from the other cloud without re-login?18:37
raildoayoung: ++ we have a huge problem with nova quota when we delete a project =/18:37
ayoungand we don';t even know all of the services that would need the notification18:37
samueldmqamakarov: to do that via federation, what would we need ?18:37
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stevemaramakarov wants to specify an ID only for create, and he is using this in a multi-dc environment. if federation is stinky for this, we should fix it.18:38
samueldmqamakarov: does that mean 'federated resources' ?18:38
amakarovconsidering existing LDAP18:38
ayoungamakarov, that sounds like K2K18:38
ayoungthat is the whole pre-sync between two clouds18:38
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notmorganamakarov: "other cloud" - same owner different deployment (like AZ)?18:38
dstanekamakarov: one horizon for all DCs right?18:38
ayoungwhich is a good midcycle topic18:38
amakarovdstanek: ++18:38
notmorganamakarov: or totally different cloud totally different dpeloyer?18:38
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ayounglets have a "larger workflows" track at the midcycle?18:38
lbragstadnotmorgan good question18:39
notmorganlbragstad: because the answer to that dictates my view.18:39
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raildoamakarov: it sounds like the Mercador idea... https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Mercador18:39
dstaneknotmorgan: wouldn't solving for different owners essentially solve for both?18:39
amakarovnotmorgan: no. clouds may be thought about as "replicated"18:39
notmorganamakarov: so "same deployer"18:39
notmorgandstanek: not really but hold on.18:40
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amakarovnotmorgan: same deployer18:40
notmorganamakarov: cool. then i think it's not unreasonable18:40
jamielennoxwhy do 2 clouds from the same deployer wanting to share projects between them not use the same keystone?18:40
stevemarwe have to move on, there are other topics on the agenda18:40
notmorgandstanek: different deployers/owners is the same reason we assume keystone for the local cloud is authoritative.18:41
samueldmqjamielennox: ++18:41
stevemari'll give this another minute to wrap up18:41
notmorganjamielennox: my point was they could also solve this via replicating keystone18:41
amakarovjamielennox: it may be a big project distributed geographically18:41
notmorganjamielennox: which is where i was going, and why it was "reasonable" to want that kind of replication18:41
jamielennoxamakarov: keystone will support that18:41
notmorgannot that the API driven one was the right answer. i'm abstaining there18:41
lbragstadjamielennox same keystone or just point to the same backend (which is essentially the same thing?)18:41
gyeereplicating gets expensive when you have more than a few DCs18:41
samueldmqjamielennox: looks like we're trying to fix something that should be fixed with right deployment choice and/or federation18:41
dstanekamakarov: write up a detailed usecase so we can discuss further18:42
jamielennoxyou can horizontally scale keystone and you can put endpoints in different regions18:42
jamielennoxfernet was a huge win for that18:42
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samueldmqdstanek: ++ amakarov please do what dstanek said ^18:42
amakarovjamielennox: right, if the project id's are the same18:42
lbragstadfwiw - we did testing of that across three globally distributed datacenters18:42
amakarovsamueldmq, dstanek: ack18:42
amakarovwill do18:43
jamielennoxamakarov: if they are the same keystone the project ids are unique within it18:43
dstanekstevemar: let's get this show on the road!18:43
stevemardstanek: alright!18:43
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stevemarswitching gears18:43
stevemar#topic Service Token provides user permissions spec18:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Service Token provides user permissions spec (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:43
stevemarjamielennox: ^18:43
stevemar(i haven't read it yet)18:44
jamielennoxok, so we discussed this spec in tokyo and then i never got around to doing it in the last cycle18:44
amakarovjamielennox: different keystones18:44
stevemar#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317266/1/specs/keystone/newton/service-user-permissions.rst18:44
jamielennoxthe intent is that we should validate users only on the first service they hit in openstack, from then on in service to service communication we should trust the user permisssions provided by the last service18:45
samueldmqjamielennox: so a token only get validate once per openstack workflow ?18:45
notmorgansamueldmq: yep18:45
jamielennoxsamueldmq: if you pass an X-Service-Token then the service token is validated to say that we should be able to trust this information18:45
samueldmqnotmorgan: looks like what we had a discussion a couple of months ago .. that could be implemented as a ksa plugin etc18:45
notmorganthis is something i've been advocating for a bit.18:45
ayoungso...what if we do :X-Service-Token + user_id + project_id + role_id18:45
jamielennoxso this is a fairly large change in the way we handle tokens in openstack18:46
notmorgansamueldmq: same thing, slightly different mechanism18:46
jamielennoxbut it sovles the mid-operation token expiry which has plagued us forever18:46
samueldmqbut the service token still needs to be validated, right ?18:46
samueldmqso no gain in terms of performance?18:46
ayoungso the remote side can still confirm that the resource is within the permissions boundary18:46
notmorgansamueldmq: yes, but that isn't long term18:46
gyeejamielennox, it will be an explicitly opt-in feature right?18:46
ayoungand we don't have an elevation of privs18:46
jamielennoxthe spec is not completely polished up and given the conceptual size of the change i just want to make sure people are on board first18:46
raildojamielennox: is this a overcome for the nova/keystone design session, right?18:46
notmorgansamueldmq: actually one less validation- you don't need to validate twice18:46
ayoungpass along the list of roles in the token that the user was originally validated18:46
notmorganayoung: i still think that we're wrong on that front, but we can expand the discussion *after*18:47
notmorganayoung: its a different topic that builds on jamielennox's proposal18:47
jamielennoxraildo: well i'm pushing it now because it all came up again at summit and this was our solution that never got proposed18:47
amakarovsamueldmq: if we figure smth out to trust some services - we don't have to validate tokens EVERY time18:47
ayoungnotmorgan, just the role-list?18:47
raildojamielennox: ++ nice18:47
jamielennoxso there are a bunch of security questions about how we trust those headers18:47
samueldmqnotmorgan: long-term is use certs for that and don't validate service token at all ? (and user token only once at the beggining of workflow)18:47
notmorganayoung: like i said, something to discuss later - once we land this i don't want to derail18:48
notmorgansamueldmq: that will also be an option18:48
notmorganbut service tokens are easy to refresh18:48
ayoungservice token == user with service role _ is_admin_project18:48
jamielennoxsamueldmq: certs would be cool18:48
ayounger that _  should be +18:48
notmorganayoung: or whatever the definition is.18:48
samueldmqamakarov: yes, that could be done using certificates, for example; but is a separate conversation, maybe long term :)18:48
notmorganayoung: that is an implementation detail18:48
jamielennoxyea, don't need is_admin_project, however you define service is fine18:48
notmorgancan be whatever KSM is configured for18:49
jamielennoxso there's a question in there about whether we should trust all the attributes passed as headers or whether we should take only the core user_id project_id etc and reconstruct it like we do fernet18:49
samueldmqnotmorgan: jamielennox: nice so this definitely opens the door for other long term improvements (like that using certs)18:49
samueldmqworks for me18:49
jamielennoxthat i'd like people to have a look at as well18:49
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stevemarjamielennox: i think nova will no longer hate us if we get this in18:49
jamielennoxstevemar: yep, and all those stupid trust hacks that glance did recently can go away18:50
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gyeeturn hate into love18:50
ayoungSo the idea is that we pre-validate at the boundaries, and then trusted services can talk to each other.  This is fine for, say, Nova to Glance, but I don't want it for *aaS like Sahara and Trove18:50
jamielennoxglance as an example18:50
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stevemarjamielennox: yep18:50
samueldmqgyee: ++18:50
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jamielennoxayoung: right, these are the concerns that i want out on the spec18:50
ayoungYeah...this is not going to scale18:50
samueldmqjamielennox: is it any worst/better in terms of security to trust all the headers ?18:50
ayoungthis is why I want unified delegation18:50
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jamielennoxso i don't expect everyone to have opinions on it now, but i'll put it on the agenda for next week as well and i'd like to hash it out on the spec until then18:51
ayoungbut this is the right approach18:51
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stevemarjamielennox: i don't anticipate much push back18:51
jamielennoxsamueldmq: it's an open question18:51
ayoungwe distinguish betwee "this is a long running operation, but treat it all as a unit" versus "do something for me later"18:51
jamielennoxstevemar: this is a giant security model change - it needs to be pushed back on18:52
ayoungthis has the potential to be a disaster.18:52
jamielennoxayoung: ++18:52
jamielennoxayoung: but there's no other reasonable way i can see to solve it18:52
stevemarwell, currently things just time out, or token expirations are set stupidly high, so... this is an improvement to me18:53
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jamielennoxi expect to have to expand the security implications bit to an essay18:53
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samueldmqit would be cool if polcies were configured per openstack workflow (create instance and all its involved API calls) rather than separate API operations18:53
ayoungsamueldmq, ++18:53
ayoungand to do that we need to know what perms you need for the workflow18:53
samueldmqthat means, reflect this work in the policy bits18:53
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jamielennoxyep - and if we're in the process of designing openstack 2.0 then i have other ideas as well18:53
ayoungwhich leads to dynamic policy and all the heresy I've been spewing these past few years18:54
samueldmqcool, I like it18:54
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topoljamielennox, what level of confidence do we have that this does not open some big unforseen security hole?18:54
topolhow do we vet/18:54
amakarovayoung: we can do that btw ))18:54
ayoungtopol, 100% that it does.18:54
jamielennoxtopol: it's certainly risky, it escalates the service user from something that is not particularly interesting to something that can emulate everyone18:54
notmorgantopol: it is not a lot worse than we have now.18:54
ayoungtopol, because we are not going to be able to limit this to services in the service catalog18:55
jamielennoxnova tells me that there is no service user on the compute nodes18:55
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ayoungbecause they don't even know their own identity18:55
jamielennoxbut it makes the service users a much jucier target18:55
gyeeif service is sharing the same memcached, any service could potentially modify the token validation results18:55
gyeejust saying :-)18:55
ayoungWhy did we split OpenStack into microservices again?18:56
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jamielennoxayoung: ++18:56
samueldmqhow does a service know its creds to auth against keystone ?18:57
stevemarhenrynash: i'm assuming 3 minutes isn't enough time for you?18:57
jamielennoxanyway - not much time left, but these questions are why i would like to debate it a lot oon the spec18:57
henrynashprobably not18:57
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ayoungnotmorgan, want to float"signed requests" again?18:57
jamielennoxsamueldmq: same as now, they all have it18:57
ayoungsamueldmq, they are autogenerated and stuck in the config file by Puppet etc18:57
stevemarhenrynash: we can chat in -keystone, cc ayoung18:57
samueldmqjamielennox: config files ?18:57
ayoungsamueldmq, ye18:57
jamielennoxi spent a bunch of time looking at oauth, it's not going to work for us18:58
henrynashstevemar: yep18:58
samueldmqayoung: isn't that dangerous ?18:58
ayoungsamueldmq, yes18:58
samueldmqjamielennox: if we're going to certs in the future, let's look at the effort with going with it now vs 2-step18:59
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ayoungsamueldmq, the old saying about laws and sausages goes double for software and treble for security18:59
samueldmqjamielennox: (not agaisnt at all, just want to put all the options on the table)18:59
jamielennoxsamueldmq: certs is never something we are going to be able to enforce globally18:59
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stevemarlets roll out18:59
gyeesay what?18:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 17 18:59:54 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-17-18.00.html18:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-17-18.00.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-17-18.00.log.html19:00
fungiinfra team, assemble!19:00
samueldmqthanks all19:00
notmorganman... i am going to go fix tha...19:00
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fungitopics from fungi and zaro. this week. it's the fungi and zaro show?19:01
fungi#startmeeting infra19:01
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openstackMeeting started Tue May 17 19:01:21 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:01
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fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:01
fungi#topic Announcements19:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
funginone for this week19:01
fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:01
jeblairnot yet, sorry19:02
fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-10-19.03.html19:02
fungi#action jeblair investigate mail filtering by recipient options for infra-root@o.o inbox19:02
fungi#topic Specs approval19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
funginone new this week19:02
fungiwe still need to flesh out the wip task tracking spec19:03
fungii was going to pick it up, but got busy with other stuff19:03
fungii did move the translation improvements spec to implemented last week19:03
fungi#topic Gerrit 2.11 disk utilization and Revisit Gerrit git gc (fungi, zaro)19:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit 2.11 disk utilization and Revisit Gerrit git gc (fungi, zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:04
fungi#link http://cacti.openstack.org/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=2839&rra_id=all19:04
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fungia couple weeks ago i ended up growing the backing volume for the gerrit homedir on review.o.o19:04
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fungisince right around the 2.11 upgrade, disk utilization inside the git tree there has been experiencing unbounded growth19:05
fungiand anteaya noticed that we were almost out of disk19:05
jeblairthat is... substantial.19:05
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fungiso i doubled it and we've gained some breathing room for the other half of this topic19:05
pleia2we've also been adding about one project a day, do we know whether it's gerrit or project growth? or both?19:05
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fungino, like the nova repo was some 10x larger than in january19:06
fungi#link https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-infra@lists.openstack.org/msg04264.html19:06
fungizaro: has done some more experimentation with the gerrit background git gc task19:06
fungiand it looks like he wanted to discuss it in the meeting19:07
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zaroyup.  so i think there was some lingering concern since last testing i did19:07
zaroi've now tested it on review-dev.o.o running gc on the nova repo and nothing bad happend to it.19:08
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zaroalso put it up there in case anybody else wanted to test other stuff on it19:08
zarowanted to see if poeple still have further questions?19:09
jeblairare we sure we are running the existing repack cron?19:09
* fungi checks syslog on review.o.o19:09
jeblairit is at least starting...19:10
jeblairMay 15 04:07:01 review CRON[42940]: (gerrit2) CMD (find /home/gerrit2/review_site/git/ -type d -name "*.git" -print -exec git --git-dir="{}" repack -afd \;)19:10
jeblairno idea if it's finishing19:10
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fungii suppose i could try manually running the same as the gerrit2 user and seeing what happens19:10
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fungiany objection to me starting it now?19:11
clarkbnot here19:11
fungino idea how long it runs19:11
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jeblairzaro: the only thing i haven't seen is how this impacts the git servers (which i think was one of the things i mentioned in my original email?)19:11
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zaroi guess i wasn't aware of that.19:12
jeblairzaro: http://paste.openstack.org/show/497409/19:13
jeblairzaro: that paragraph from the email19:13
fungii've got a screen session as gerrit2 on review.o.o with that command copied from crontab -l running, if another infra-root needs to attach: sudo su - gerrit2; script /dev/null; screen -x19:14
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zarojeblair: are you referring to the cgit servers?19:15
nibalizero/ (only sorta)19:15
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fungizaro: yes, those19:15
jeblairzaro: yes.  that is the principal thing i'm worried about.19:15
jeblairi'm sure that gerrit gc will make gerrit faster19:15
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jeblairi'm not sure what will happen to the git servers19:16
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zaroso doesn't gerrit replicate to those?19:16
clarkbI thought that was tested and hashar? provided independent confirmation19:16
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jeblairzaro: it does19:16
jeblairclarkb: i was unaware of that19:16
clarkbya regular git used less memory for them after they started GCing iirc19:17
zarowould it be possible to test with some other repo on review.o.o?19:17
jeblairand what impact did it have on network traffic and the resulting size of repos that were cloned from a git server?19:17
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jeblairi think this is easy to test.  just get a repo, gc it, and serve it with cgit and the apache smart git protocol19:18
clarkbI don't recall specifics on network traffic and size of cloned repos19:18
jeblairthis is a one way trip for us19:18
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jeblairso before we embark on it, i think it would be good to know how it's going to alter one of the more performance-critical pieces of our infrastructure19:18
jeblairhowever, if other folks don't share that concern, we can yolo it.19:19
fungizaro: jeblair: we could test what happens with replication to the local mirror on review-dev?19:19
zarojeblair: are you suggesting we setup a seperate cgit server for this test?19:19
fungii assume we have one configured19:19
clarkbfungi: we do19:20
jeblairzaro: the testing can be done locally19:20
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zaroi thought review-dev was only replicating to github?19:20
clarkbzaro: it has a local replica too19:20
clarkbthe stuff served out of /p/foo/bar19:20
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jeblairgit.o.o has lots of protocols19:21
jeblairgit smart http via apache, git native, cgit19:21
jeblair(also, even occasionally git dumb via http)19:21
clarkbthe first two are trivial to test on review-dev, the last would require a cgit install19:21
jeblairall of them may behave differently19:22
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fungiyeah, and cgit install means probably separate centos server19:22
jeblairi'm not trying to slow this down19:22
zaroso nova-gc repo is already on review-dev.o.o so we can just look at the local replication?19:22
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jeblairi seriously think this does not require any special access19:23
jeblairjust do it locally19:23
zaronot sure why we need a cgit install now.  thought you said we only need local test?19:23
clarkbzaro: because cgit serves git repos19:23
jeblairyes, install cgit on a local server19:23
jeblairor a cloud server somewhere19:23
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clarkbso the test is to ensure we don't negative impact the memory/cpu/network/disk of cgit when we switch19:23
jeblairdon't worry about review-dev or setting up some kind of new public cgit server19:23
fungiprivate gerrit vm replicating to private cgit vm, test performance of cloning and fetching from the cgit vm via http/https/git protocols before and after turning on gerrit background git gc?19:25
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jeblairfungi: sure.  actual gerrit optional.  :)19:26
jeblair(since we could forego using gerrit gc and just use git gc to give us more control)19:26
jeblairjust, whichever of those zaro wants to actually do :)19:27
fungibtw, faux-cron repack still going on review.o.o in my screen session19:27
fungihasn't bombed yet anyway19:27
zaroi guess it depends whether there's value in having a cgit test server somewhere?19:28
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zaroand having gerrit replicate to it?19:28
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zaroor is this something we only do one time?19:28
jeblairthis is a one time thing19:29
zarook. then i'll try the less work route19:29
jeblairthat's the reason i put the tarball of the git repo up -- because none of this requires access to production servers19:29
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zarook, so i guess we prefer to test cgit before doing? is that the decision?19:31
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fungihashar: clarkb mentioned your gc'd git replica performance testing back around 19:16 utc in the meeting log. do you have a link to that analysis handy?19:32
jeblairi don't mind either way (though if there are surprises, i won't be fixing them)19:32
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hasharclarkb: fungi: I might have wrote it in the infra mailing list directly19:33
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fungihashar: do you recall roughly when that was?19:33
hasharnop but can look it up19:33
fungiif you can narrow it down to a particular month, i can dig up a ml archive url for it easily19:34
hasharI was replying to some email from Zaro for sure19:34
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zarohashar: sorry i don't remember :(19:34
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zaromaybe we should continue and round back?19:36
fungiyeah, let's proceed to teh next (also gerrit-related) topic19:37
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hasharyup I will post to the mailling list if I find something19:37
fungiit's "gerrit week" here in infra19:37
fungithanks hashar! thanks zaro!19:37
fungi#topic Gerrit project renames using the Gerrit import/delete plugin (zaro)19:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit project renames using the Gerrit import/delete plugin (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:38
fungi#link https://gerrit.googlesource.com/plugins/importer/+/stable-2.11/src/main/resources/Documentation/about.md19:38
zaroso i've tested what's described there to rename projects.  it's real slick and easy19:38
fungizaro: so if i understand the proposal, it's to use that plugin to "import" a gerrit project to a new name and then delete the old one?19:38
zaroand no restart or rindex required19:38
zarofungi: yup, that's really all there is too it.19:39
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fungizaro: reading that, it seems to import from a second gerrit. does importing from itself also work?19:39
clarkbhttps://gerrit.googlesource.com/plugins/importer/+/stable-2.11/src/main/resources/Documentation/about.md#Project-Rename is the section for renames19:39
fungii skimmed poorly!19:39
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zaroyou can copy, and even move it to a subproject19:39
zaroor i mean across subprojects19:40
fungiand it keeps open changes, subscriptions, et cetera?19:40
fungistarred changes carry over too?19:40
zarohmm, i didn't check that.  but can later19:40
fungido they end up with new change urls? new change-ids?19:40
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fungijust thinking through the things we normally copy when updating the db19:41
clarkbfungi: ya I would worry about that, not sure how you can preserve the change numbers between two servers19:41
clarkbseems like collisions would be a big issue19:41
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zarofor the changes. no, it keeps the same url, change id and commit id19:41
fungii have a feeling the long change-ids remain the same at least19:41
fungibut i'm surprised it could have the same change number19:42
zarosorry, actually i think change ids do change.19:42
fungii thought that was a unique incremented integer column in the table19:42
jeblairespecially since, at some point during the process, the project exists in two places...19:42
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jeblairso this would break all of our urls19:43
zaroopps, i mean change number changes, but change id stays the same19:43
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fungiti definitely sounds worthy of further investigation. i don't mind there being some caveats to a rename since that may help discourage them further, but the compromises will need to be weighed against the benefits (no downtime and no offline reindex are biggies)19:44
zarohere's a project copy in progress: https://review-dev.openstack.org/#/x/importer/list19:44
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fungii wonder if the plugin could be extended to have a proper "rename" mode which encapsulates the copy and delete but preserves id numbers and anything else which would otherwise be awkward for an import/copy19:45
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fungiso anyway, it's an interesting proposal for sure. there's some serious merit if it gets us free of having maintenance windows to rename projects19:46
fungimore research needed for now though19:47
fungi#topic Project rename scheduling (fungi)19:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Project rename scheduling (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:47
fungiand on that note...19:47
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fungiwhen do we want to rename openstack/openstack-ansible-ironic to openstack/openstack-ansible-os_ironic, and possibly also openstack-infra/ansible-puppet to openstack-infra/ansible-role-puppet19:47
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fungimordred added the second one, but hasn't written the change to actually implement it19:48
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fungii can tell everyone is excited at the prospect of yet another gerrit maintenance window19:48
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fungii guess let's not shoot for "May 23-27" since that's our server upgrades sprint week19:49
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pleia2memorial day in the states is the following week, but maybe later in that week?19:50
fungiclarkb and i are also not around for much of the week of june 519:50
pleia2how about the 3rd?19:51
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fungii could see doing it on friday the 3rd of may19:51
clarkbI won't be around the 3rd, but you don't need me19:51
pleia2june ;)19:51
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fungii could see doing it on friday the 3rd of JUNE19:51
pleia2I'll be around19:52
fungiyeah, i don't have any plans that day19:52
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fungiif there's at least two infra-root volunteers, it's probably fine?19:52
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fungi#link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html release schedule19:52
pleia2I'll be on east coast time, so earlier is better19:52
fungithat's the end of n1 milestone week19:53
pleia2ah, hm19:53
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fungiwhich is probably fine? earlier that week less so of course19:53
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clarkbI have family arriving the econd and traveling the 4th so the 3rd is likely family day19:54
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fungidhellmann: any concerns with an extended gerrit maintenance window friday the 3rd of june, the last day of n1 milestone week?19:54
dhellmannfungi : when would you want to start?19:54
dhellmannit probably won't be an issue, as long as we get the milestone tags done before you start19:55
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dhellmannand it should be possible to do that early in the day EST19:55
fungipleia2 and i are volunteering to work on it, and we'll both be in edt that week, so probably not super late19:55
fungi20:00 utc works fine for me19:56
* dhellmann converts to local time19:56
pleia2now :)19:56
fungithat's 4pm augusta time19:56
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dhellmannalso athens but yeah, that should work fine19:56
fungi#agreed Gerrit rename maintenance tentatively scheduled 20:00-24:00 UTC Friday, June 319:56
fungidhellmann: ahh, one of those a towns. at least i didn't say atlanta ;)19:57
jeblairall the "A" towns in georgia are conveniently in the same timezone19:57
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fungiso desu nee19:57
prometheanfirecan I bring up something real quick? have a meeting to run to19:57
fungistill one topic to go19:57
dhellmannjeblair : augusta is actually spelled disgusta, but yeah ;-)19:57
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fungi#topic Privileged or sanitized log access for openstackid.org (fungi)19:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Privileged or sanitized log access for openstackid.org (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:57
prometheanfireok, guess I'll be late19:58
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fungiwe temporarily granted smarcet root access to openstackid.org shortly before the summit so he could review logs19:58
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fungijust wanted to see if anyone is interested in helping me work out a solution for puppeting privileged log access or alternatively a log sanitization and publishing solution for that server19:58
fungicome find me in #openstack-infra to discuss since it's almost tc meeting time now19:59
fungi#topic Open discussion19:59
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:59
fungiprometheanfire: what's the question?19:59
jeblairi think priv access is better; i'm not super keen on exposing (even sanitized) authn logs19:59
prometheanfireI've been working on getting gentoo into nodepool19:59
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prometheanfireit was brought up that maybe I should make a spec for it, do I need to?20:00
clarkbjeblair: agreed, particularly since they carry potentially personally identifiable infos20:00
clarkbjeblair: mapping names and users to IPs20:00
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fungiprometheanfire: i don't personally see a need to have a spec for that unless there's a lot of review confusion around it20:00
prometheanfireI don't think there is20:00
fungialso we're out of time. don't want to anger the lovely tc20:00
fungiprometheanfire: then i'd just go forth and code20:00
prometheanfirejust have to touch a lot of projects20:01
dims_haha fungi20:01
fungithanks everyone!20:01
prometheanfireyep, sgtm20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 17 20:01:09 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-17-19.01.html20:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-17-19.01.txt20:01
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-17-19.01.log.html20:01
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fungiapologies ttx, i owe you 1.5 minutes20:01
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ttxannegentle, dims, flaper87, mtreinish, thingee, mordred, russellb, sdague : around ?20:01
* notmorgan is different and waves with the other hand.20:01
ttx#startmeeting tc20:02
openstackMeeting started Tue May 17 20:02:01 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:02
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:02
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ttxHi everyone...20:02
ttxOur agenda for today:20:02
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:02
* rockyg shifts position as foot fell asleep in last meeting20:02
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ttxA small appetizer first20:02
* edleafe lurks innocently20:02
* notmorgan drinks coffee.20:02
ttx#topic Add Zanata dev team as extra ATC20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Add Zanata dev team as extra ATC (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/31393420:02
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* notmorgan offers coffee to thingee.20:02
ttxI18n PTL proposes to add a few Zanata developers as extra ATCs, to recognize their role in providing and improving the tool that is central to the I18n team work20:03
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* thingee has the shakes20:03
ttxThis already has more than enough votes to pass, so I'll approve this now unless someone objects and wants to discuss it further20:03
mesterySeems straightforward to me20:03
ttxok then, approved20:03
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ttx#topic Add golang as an approved language - technical benefits discussion20:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Add golang as an approved language - technical benefits discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:04
ttx(timeboxing this one to 40 minutes so we have the time to discuss openstack-salt)20:04
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/31226720:04
ttxLast week we (mostly) discussed community costs, with two identified categories20:04
ttx- the base cost of community fragmentation every time we add a language20:04
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ttx- the cost to OpenStack cross-project to support the added language (Infra, Release management, Docs, QA...)20:04
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ttxOn the latter I think most teams have started evaluating the cost to them20:04
ttxbut it will probably take a few more days before we can collate the results and truly weigh the benefits against the cost20:05
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ttxSo let's discuss benefits20:05
ttxThe idea here is that Go allows us to overcome performance/IO/concurrency limitations in Python20:05
ttxOr, as nicely summarized by ayoung on the thread: "Python for most things. Javascript for web out of necessity. Go for native tuning."20:05
ttxAnd as it goes I think Go is probably the solution for that domain that would generate the less community fragmentation20:05
ayoungwhat did I do now?20:05
ttxIn the long ML thread(s) I spotted two major objections to that20:05
dims_ayoung : all good :)20:06
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ttxayoung: you nicely summarized20:06
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mesteryayoung: I think you brought some good sanity and a nice quote to this discussion around Golang :)20:06
ttx(A) is around Python and performance -- suggesting that you can totally write code in "Python" that would perform as well as Go20:06
mesteryttx: ++20:06
russellb+1 to Go being solution that creates least fragmentation for addressing that problem space in our community20:06
ttx(B) is that the main driver for Go seems to come from the need to do smart / data-plane work (in Swift or Designate) while OpenStack is otherwise dumb / control-plane (we integrate external data-plane solutions)20:06
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ttxMy take is that (A) is a bit weak -- I trust the Swift folks to have tried to optimize their Python code and not have jumped on the Go bandwagon lightly20:06
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ttx(B), though, triggers an essential question for the Technical Committee:20:06
ttxShould we add Go to better embrace smart/data-plane projects, or should we spin out smarty/data-plany things as external open source projects and limit OpenStack's mission to integrating them ?20:07
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ttxI.e. is the need for Go in core OpenStack a clear sign that we are overstepping our mission bounds ?20:07
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sdaguethat's an interesting question20:07
notmorganI agree A isn't strong or a reason to block Golang (or any other language)20:07
mesteryttx: It's an interesting question20:07
ttx(and smart things like hypervisors, databases, message queues, DNS proxies or object stores should be their own external open source projects, coded in whatever language is most appropriate ?)20:07
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dims_we should not be turning people away!20:08
ttxdims_: we can't host all the open source in the world either20:08
dims_ttx : not asking for that either20:08
ttxbut we should definitely try to integrate with most ?20:08
dhellmanncould the dns proxy designate is building work as an external project? does it talk directly to their database or anything like that?20:08
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mesteryI think we should look at these in a case by case basis20:08
mugsiedhellmann: it does talk directly to our db20:08
johnthetubaguyright, some folks will thrive better on their own, the tricky bit is choosing who that should be20:08
mesteryI mean, in the case of swift and designate, if we say no to Golang, we have forced them to use github or some other place to host a piece of their SW20:09
flaper87What would having them as external projects mean? Would they be under the openstack org but not part of our governance?20:09
notmorganttx: so let me be sure i get what you're saying: designate API would still be in scope, the dns proxy would not?20:09
annegentleseeing all the difficulty getting common doc toolsets working, I'd like to encourage more onion layers in the ecosystem20:09
mugsieit is not so much a proxy as a DNS master that serves to the DNS servers that we integrate with20:09
flaper87Would they have to be moved to some other org?20:09
mugsieit is kind of core to our control plane20:09
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dhellmannmugsie : ok, so integration would become a bit more complicated that way unless that thing had an API for talking to it somehow20:09
dhellmannnotmorgan : yeah, that's how I understood it20:09
notmorganttx: similar for object store, the API and similar would all be part of scope, but the actual bits that (for example write to disk) would not?20:09
annegentleflaper87 it's more "why the OpenStack org" to me, we have plenty on our plate that we're not delivering on.20:09
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notmorgandhellmann: just making sure we have that clearly outlined.20:09
ttxIt's a larger question obviously, we are back at "what is OpenStack" again20:10
flaper87annegentle: that's how I read it too20:10
mesteryThe analogy to Neutron and [OVN, ODL, midonet, etc.] is interesting here. In that case, we do have many external implementations not in openstack itself20:10
edleafeannegentle: +120:10
dims_why do we have to equate OpenStack === Python?20:10
* dhellmann wonders if we'll only ever answer "what is openstack?" when we can ask it as "what was openstack?"20:10
sdagueright, ovn went off to solve the in tree SDN out of tree20:10
ttxIf it's just about "an integration engine for providing infrastructure-as-a-service" then it shouldn't need much more than Python20:10
dtroyermestery: those all have reasons to exist without OpenStack, the project under consideration arguably does not (the golang portion)20:10
mesterysdague: ++20:10
mugsiedtroyer: ++20:10
ttxthe problem is it's also an object store, a queue, a DNS proxy...20:11
russellbright, because we felt the ovs community was a good palce to do that (and make it more reusable outside of openstack)20:11
fungifwiw, saying "no" to go wouldn't necessarily mean hosting outside our infrastructure. we just added a c-based project for swift the otehr day (the liberasurecode dependency they've adopted)20:11
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mesteryrussellb: Exactly20:11
dhellmanndtroyer : which part of what project?20:11
russellbi do agree we should encourage more reusability outside of our community where it makes sense20:11
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mesteryrussellb: ++20:11
thingeedims_: I don't think it's OpenStack === python ... it's us reevaluating our scope as a result of golang being brought up because of the current scope.20:11
notmorganfungi: ++20:11
dtroyerdhellmann: the hummingbird branch of swift20:11
annegentleI would like to see outroads rather than inroads. And I don't believe it's saying Python is OpenStack.20:11
mesterythingee: Well said20:11
dhellmanndtroyer : when I looked at that branch today, the readme said the object service was feature complete -- so I think there's a whole rewrite in there20:12
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dtroyerdhellmann: for one part of the project, not the entire project20:12
ttxmestery, dims: they could still be developed on openstack infrastructure20:12
annegentlethingee yeah, scope.20:12
dims_thingee : designate and swift are just trying to do what they do better for our users20:12
notmynameit's not, nor is the current hummingbird branch what we want to bring into master whole-cloth20:12
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dims_so where is the scope creep?20:12
notmorgannotmyname: good to know.20:12
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notmorgannotmyname: thanks :)20:12
dhellmanndtroyer, notmyname: ok, given the list of things that are there, it's not clear what parts are/aren't rewritten20:13
notmyname"it's not" == the hummingbird branch is not feature complete, and is not a full rewrite of anything20:13
thingeedims_: no arguments there.20:13
johnthetubaguyso swift is OpenStack, they feel they need to use Go, that bit doesn't seem like a scope creep at least?20:13
dims_johnthetubaguy : they are delivering what they delivered before, but better...20:13
dhellmannnotmyname : ok, so that readme is just wrong?20:13
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johnthetubaguydims_: right20:13
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mesteryI am tending to evaluate 312267 on the basis of "swift and designate want to use Golang", but perhaps the review is wider and we're worried about the net it will cast?20:13
johnthetubaguyso a slight tangent... we are not saying its a good idea to have the swift API in Go and python, right?20:13
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dhellmannmestery : yeah, the most recent comment about starting to rewrite everything bothers me20:14
annegentledims_ To me, the scope creep is the cross project work. For example, choosing to have infra work on this integration rather than say, https on the docs site. Having to document best practices for operators to integrate these projects. Packagers time spent with Go needs instead of IaaS projects.20:14
notmorganmestery: i think the net is wide and i don't want to evaluate this as "project X wants golang"20:14
mesterydhellmann: I agree20:14
thingeedims_: however, we as a community are effected by these decisions. I think it's healthy for us to talk about current scope.20:14
dims_thingee : yep, understoof20:14
mugsiedhellmann: yeah, that was definitly not my intention (rewrite everything)20:14
notmynamedhellmann: from the community perspective, yes. the branch has been focused on a subset of functionality that is the current feature set for rackspace cloud files. and everyone will agree that there's a huge lack of docs on it right now. that's one of the things we're working on over the next six months20:14
notmorganmestery: it's the wrong approach, because we're not looking at project X. project X just has a case to propose this right now and is justifying the conversation.20:14
annegentlemestery I'm not evaluating 312267 for just swift and designate. I can't. We're drowning here.20:15
dhellmannmugsie : could you envision the dns server you're working on being a thing outside of openstack that you talk to from designate?20:15
notmorganmestery: the wider reasoning for including golang is the important thing to consider.20:15
mesterynotmorgan: But if we say no to Golang, will swift and designate just not use it?20:15
mesteryWhat happens to them if we say no?20:15
mugsiewell, it is replacing a currently existing one20:15
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ttxmestery: there are three potential outcomes to this: yes to golang, no to golang, and spin out some pieces (don't really need to answer that go question after all)20:15
mesteryDo they move their Golang pieces somewhere else?20:15
dhellmannnotmyname : ok, thanks for clarifying20:15
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ttxI don't think the second solution is an option20:15
mesterynotmyname: What happens if hte TC says no to Golong?20:15
mesteryDo you just move your swift Golang pieces somewhere else?20:15
annegentlemestery they can use it and we won't stop them. They can move it without bringing additional burdens to the middle.20:15
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thingeettx: +120:16
mugsiemestery: in our case as a project we probably won't, but I know a certain large cloud provider will keep it20:16
notmynamemestery: I have no idea. I haven't wanted to consider that. I don't think there are good options for anyone at that point20:16
mesterynotmyname: right20:16
ttxmestery: I think that's sidestepping the question. I don't see why we'd say no to golang and still say that smart/data-plane projects are ok20:16
greghaynesHave we actually established that there is a need for designate to rewrite in go? I still havent seen anything to that effect, or are we just saying we don't mind despite not showing that?20:16
notmorganttx: exactly.20:16
ttxso "no to golang" is not really an option I think.20:16
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mesteryttx: OK, so then I am not sure why we'd say no to Golang here20:16
mesteryttx: Right20:16
mesteryttx: We're on the same page!20:16
russellbi tend to think +1 to golang, assume people don't rewrite stuff lightly, and address real problems if/when they arise20:16
ttxbut "we should only do dumb things" is one option20:16
ttxSo to summarize...20:17
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notmorgangreghaynes: as much as i want to talk about that, i'd like to table that to the side for purposes here.20:17
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ttxIf we say smart/dataplany things are in scope of openstack, I think we need to approve golang as a nice omplement tool20:17
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russellbit already is in a number of places20:17
dims_ttx +120:17
russellbi don't see how we can change that20:17
mesteryttx: +120:17
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notmorganttx: ++20:17
annegentlettx does that approval then imply approval for all the cross-project work to be "blessed?"20:17
ttxIf we say openstack should only be dumb / controlplany stuff, then I think Python is plenty enough20:17
dhellmannrussellb : why can't we change that?20:17
russellbdhellmann: not easily, at least20:18
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dougwiggreghaynes: the "but python could do that" arguments are reminiscient of early debates between perl and python and C. technically, C could do everything python does, too. that's not always the end of the question.20:18
annegentlettx or take priority even?20:18
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dhellmannrussellb : this is openstack, nothing is easy20:18
ttxrussellb: it's easy to enter the tent, it's easy to exit it20:18
dtroyerannegentle: I think that means those who what officiality are on the hook to provide support for the requirements that follow20:18
thingeebig tent is not hotel california.20:18
* flaper87 lost connection for a bit so no idea what's easy/hard to do20:18
flaper87thingee: lol20:18
notmorganttx: so i want to quote a comment on the golang thread.20:18
russellbi don't know that it's easy to remove neutron, for example20:19
mesterythingee: That's a twitter quote right there :)20:19
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notmorganttx: that worries me. it's related to all this.20:19
bswartzI'm curious to know what the proposed performance improvement is with golang vs python. I saw a document that showed something like a 60% speedup -- but that seemed rather pathetic to me. Normally people don't consider major architectural changes for anything less than an order of magnitude improvement. There's a reason we don't have 1.6 gigabit ethernet.20:19
notmorganttx: "If Go was accepted as an officially supported language in the OpenStack community, I'd be the first to start to rewrite as much code as possible in Go."20:19
notmorganttx: ^ That worries me.20:19
greghaynesI dont mean to debate the specifics of designate, I am mostly trying to figure out if this is making a general rule for a single specific case...20:19
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ttxnotmorgan: yeah, I can see that. People using the shiny thing just because it's in the toolbelt20:19
annegentledtroyer but they seem to get official approval with this patch, without having to prove that they'll provide resources.20:19
flaper87notmorgan: exactly my point20:19
ttxnotmorgan: I think that's part of the community cost20:20
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notmorganttx: yep.20:20
flaper87I think the technical motivations behind Golang are fine but the community aspect of this change keeps worrying me.20:20
ttxbut if we want to enable dataplany things, I think that a cost we need to accept to pay20:20
thingeebswartz: from notmyname's messages to the ML, while it's not impossible to achieve the same without enough time investment, it's picking the right tool to start,20:20
dtroyerannegentle: I never saw approval as a commitment of existing resources to carry the load, and I don't think it should be20:20
timsimgreghaynes: The single case being swift? or Designate?20:20
greghaynestimsim: swift20:20
annegentlettx I still sense the community cost is too high.20:21
ttxannegentle: explain ?20:21
annegentledtroyer hence my concern as someone who needs more community resources.20:21
dims_annegentle : what would reduce community cost?20:21
ttxannegentle: in a specific team cost, or just general community desintegration ?20:21
notmynamebswartz: there more (and "realer") data in a talk from the tokyo summit https://www.openstack.org/summit/tokyo-2015/videos/presentation/omg-objects-the-unscaly-underbelly-of-openstack-swift20:22
annegentlettx team costs. spreading out the burden for tooling20:22
flaper87ttx: I believe it'd affect both, tbh. There's a single project impact and a broader impact20:22
dims_annegentle : fair point20:22
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mugsieannegentle: what tooling are you thinking of?20:22
johnthetubaguyso there is totally a need for resources for to maintain the go related infrastructure, thats not small20:22
ttxannegentle: for release management the costs are minor. Infra seems to be on top of what would be required... any other team with concerns ?20:22
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johnthetubaguyinfra stuff, docs stuff, etc20:22
annegentlemugsie infra, docs, test, packaging, operating20:22
mugsiedocs should not be affected for exam ple20:22
dhellmannmugsie : every cross project team has tools that work with projects in one way or another20:23
flaper87ttx: annegentle I'd add oslo in there too20:23
annegentlemugsie my understanding is a desire to support golang docs20:23
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mugsiefor internal docs, but shpinx for "naritive" docs20:23
johnthetubaguy(adds translation to the above list)20:23
fungimy biggest concern for a "community cost" is finding a good answer as to how to get ahead of the inevitable "us vs. them" split that will ensue if we have some people working only on python and some working only on go20:23
mugsieat least that was the plan that last I heard20:23
annegentlemugsie also while infra stands up go infrastructure, we don't get them to work on a spec that has been written twice in the last two years. http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/doc-publishing.html20:23
notmynamefungi: any different than people working on neutron vs people working on horizon?20:24
clarkbfungi: there is also a third party with high overhead. The people that necessarily work in both worlds to fight off the wolves acusing them of breaking things constantly20:24
ttxFrankly, I don't think we can support smart/dataplany things without adding a language that several projects have found useful to deliver such things. I'm not convinced we should be in the business of doing domain-specific smart things though20:24
notmynamefungi: there isn't a "vs". we all make openstack.20:24
funginotmyname: true. we're definitely trying to break down silos already and get everyone to work on everything20:24
fungithat's teh point of the project-teams gathering20:24
sdaguettx: so that feels like a different resolution you want to propose20:24
russellbttx: agree that ideally we should not20:24
mesterysdague: ++20:24
russellbno more than necessary / last resort20:24
russellbor pre-existing ..20:24
notmorganttx: 100% agreeed we must have a language to deliver these things if we support that20:24
sdaguewhich we'd kind of want to resolve before we ask the specific go question, right?20:25
annegentleI don't think it's about a split or schism. It's about "what do I work on to make OpenStack better?"20:25
ttxsdague: one that would make this one irrelevant, but yes. This resolution basically unearthed a real question that has been there below the surface forever20:25
dims_annegentle : ++20:25
fungiso i'm less concerned if we significantly increase the costs of participating for people who only want to focus on "part of openstack"20:25
thingeesdague: yes20:25
annegentlefungi ah, interesting.20:25
amrithfungi, that's an interesting view.20:25
fungimeans it's time for me to bone up on go programming20:25
amrithI think most people participate only on a 'part of openstack'20:25
dtroyerfungi: ++20:25
sdagueright, I guess you could see the early rumblings of it in the zaqar vote20:26
ttxIf we want to be all thongs to all people, we'll need more languages20:26
notmynamefungi: you and me both ;-)20:26
* amrith looks around and sees that edleafe isn't nearby so says C# .NET and runs away20:26
annegentleamrith true and it makes us as a whole look like we're slow, say, trying to get API reference standards for example20:26
dtroyerttx: I don't think we should beall things to all people, but I also don't think that's the counter here20:26
ttxI'm just not convinced we should be in the business of writing a database or an hypervisor or a message queue. I think we are in the business of integrating those things20:27
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* edleafe laughs at amrith 20:27
russellbttx: agreed with that.20:27
thingeettx: +120:27
mesteryttx: +120:27
notmorganso, i am inclined to agree, i will be against writing a database (in openstack) or a hypervisor.20:27
amrithannegentle, I see what you mean (and I agree with you).20:27
dougwigif i did write a database, it wouldn't be in python.20:27
notmorgannot to say they couldn't be part of the larger ecosystem.20:27
amrithI'm curious though about fungi's comment. something to think about there.20:27
johnthetubaguyttx: that feels correct20:27
notmorgandougwig: regardless of the underlying language20:27
ttxobject storage now... is in the grey area. But still sufficiently in the white zone so that it kinda need another language to do things well20:28
annegentleAs I look at all the REST APIs that need docs, it's possible there are 30 of them. 10 have docs. That has nothing to do with "do we add golang?" and that's my concern for OpenStack as a whole. Distraction by governance.20:28
flaper87ttx: why is it in the grey area?20:28
notmynamettx: and I'd phrase that as "swift integrates different persistent storage technologies today". but yes, it has a data plane API instead of provisioning object storage systems20:28
dhellmannttx: why is object storage special?20:28
mugsieannegentle: 10 have docs on the api-site20:28
edleafeThere's a huge difference between only working on part of OpenStack and only caring about part of OpenStack20:28
notmorganflaper87: it's where the split between api and data plane ends up in object store20:28
annegentlemugsie 30 exist in projects.yaml20:28
greghaynesthat is what is going on with swift though, and thats why they need a new language at the end of the day - they are basically a database20:28
mugsieyeah,  but other projects are doc'd else where20:28
annegentlemugsie and all are moving off api-site.20:29
ttxdhellmann: it's arguably more high-level than a database or a hypervisor ?20:29
flaper87notmorgan: well, it feels data to me20:29
notmorganflaper87: it's a different place than most openstack-projects.20:29
annegentlemugsie in their repos with no collective website for end-users to use20:29
notmorganflaper87: think of it more like "API" users interact with and "bits that put things on disk"20:29
annegentlemugsie we can talk more about it after the golang discussion if you're curious20:29
* amrith agrees with greghaynes; i know of zero high performance databases written in Python.20:29
dhellmannttx: gnocchi is a database built on top of an object storage20:29
bswartzdhellmann: swift is special because the API and the implementation of the API are not separate things20:29
flaper87notmorgan: glance ? :P20:29
notmorganflaper87: the API has to be some-what dataplane-y to succeed. you don't make swift api to interact with.20:29
mugsieannegentle: I would argue that was around tooling / timing. as soon as the os-api-ref was done, we started moving20:29
* flaper87 ducks20:29
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dhellmannbswartz : that's an implementation detail of swift, though, isn't it?20:30
ttxgreghaynes: yeah, we want go because we are writing a sort of database. It feels like we should ask ourselves the question of whether that's what we should be doing... before we add the language20:30
notmynamedhellmann: no. that's a fundamental part of object storage20:30
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notmorganflaper87: anyway you get it. object store is slightly different but it still is close enough to non-dataplane to not really raise flags.20:30
ttxdhellmann: we shoudl not be in the business of writing a time-series database either20:30
bswartzdhellmann: if we follow the model of cinder or manila, there would be a swift API the plugable implementations -- and some or most of those implementation would live outside the tent20:30
johnthetubaguydhellmann: so swift doesn't have a plugin for ceph right?20:30
notmorganflaper87: frm wher ethe split actually is.20:31
greghaynesttx: agreed20:31
notmynamejohnthetubaguy: that exists in the ecosystem20:31
bswartzand* plugable implementations20:31
dhellmannttx: ok. my point was just that "level" is relative20:31
notmorganjohnthetubaguy: my understanding is it easily could or be part of the ecosystem al.. what notmyname said20:31
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy : not that I'm aware of20:31
dhellmannbswartz : I agree20:31
dougwigso if an open-source implementation doesn't exist for some new service, you have to go elsewhere to build it? if the poppy folks had decided to write their own CDN stuff to include, we'd ask them to go elsewhere? how is that community building?  is the big tent really just streamlined incubation for REST wrappers?20:31
johnthetubaguynotmyname: well its a swift API implementation, not a plugin to swift though?20:31
annegentlenotmyname so why not have hummingbird in the ecosystem? I may have missed the reason spelled out in the thread.20:31
mugsiedougwig: ++20:31
johnthetubaguyits not like abstracting the two systems to a common API20:31
notmynamejohnthetubaguy: https://github.com/openstack/swift-ceph-backend20:32
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notmorganjohnthetubaguy: you can layer under the swift python api connection to librados. this isn't radosgw.20:32
hogepodgeSwift not being pluggable is one of the biggest complaints I have on defcore enforcement20:32
johnthetubaguynotmyname: I stand corrected20:32
notmynamejohnthetubaguy: also https://github.com/openstack/swiftonfile20:32
dhellmannlet's not get side-tracked talking about pluggability20:32
notmynameand other proprietary stuff that NetApp, EMC, and others have built20:32
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notmorganhogepodge: ^ i think that is really a misrepresentation as i've bene looking at this for a bit recently, actually wanted to ping you on that later today re: this (post meeting)20:32
notmynamehogepodge: but it is. just not where you want it to be pluggable20:32
mugsieshould we drop octavia then, if we are not doing dataplane services. or is it OK if we have a data plane esq thing, that is plugable?20:32
johnthetubaguyso it seems odd to kick half of swift out of the big tent.. but is that what we are suggesting here?20:32
ttxannegentle: to come back to your objection ('cost is too high even if we agree we want dataplany things in') -- that means "no to golang" would have to be an option. I just don't know what the world would look like if we chose that option20:33
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hogepodgedhellmann language woukdnt be an issue if it were pluggable, but I'll step back20:33
bswartzjohnthetubaguy: I would suggest kicking the go parts out and keeping the python parts in20:33
dhellmannhogepodge : I think I see where you're going, yeah20:33
johnthetubaguybut then we are streaming data in python, into go, which sounds... odd20:33
mesterySo are we fundamentally coming back to ttx's question about openstack being wrappers for existing dataplane things? Feels like we are.20:33
notmorganmestery: we are20:34
johnthetubaguyyeah, I am really thinking, so what does this mean for swift20:34
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dtroyermestery: and that feels like it is dangerously close to the "are we implementations or API specs"20:34
thingeeI don20:34
dougwigdoesn't that also boil down to, "if you want to innovate, go elsewhere" ?20:34
amrithwell mestery are we saying wrappers or specifically 'python wrappers'?20:34
mesterydtroyer: Right20:34
mesterydougwig: That's what I'm trying to get at20:34
dhellmannmugsie : maybe if octavia is a load balancer vs. configuring a load balancer20:34
mesteryI mean, if we're saying that, where does that leave things like swift, octavia, etc.?20:34
johnthetubaguywell, we are saying we are API implementations, which is a slightly odd place I guess20:34
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: it's API plus glue20:35
mesteryThis seems to me to be a fundamental thing we're discussing now, with much greater impact than adding Golang20:35
edleafedougwig: "innovate" doesn't mean "do it differently"20:35
dims_our strength as a community is because of inclusiveness and choice...20:35
mesteryjohnthetubaguy: Exactly20:35
dhellmanndtroyer : we are the implementation of the abstraction layer20:35
johnthetubaguysdague: true, I meant + glue20:35
sdaguebecause a lot of things need a lot of glue to hold together20:35
dougwigedleafe: innovate also doesn't mean "always do it the same".20:35
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ttxOK, so we have two potential outcomes: yes to go and dataplany things, no to dataplany things (and no need for go). Does anyone think "no to go but yes to dataplany things" is an option ?20:35
thingeeFWIW I don't think the streamlined stuff makes sense. I think people should just be using native apis of object stores. Projects like cinder that use swift and ceph today will back up can continue to provide an interface to those with some feature.20:35
notmorgansdague: ++, but i use gaffer tape these days.20:35
mugsiettx: depends on the "dataplany things definition"20:36
johnthetubaguydims_: its also a big weakness, but thats a different discussion20:36
dtroyerdhellmann: so independant of language, should the two projects being discussed be pushed away anyway?20:36
amrithttx that is a hard quesiton. 'yes or no to go' is very specific but 'dataplany things' is many things to many people.20:36
dims_dtroyer : i hope sincerely we don't do that20:36
notmorganttx: "no to go and yes to dataplane-y things" is not something i'd support20:36
ttxmugsie: I guess the question is.. can we really be in the business of smart things without a language for native optimized pieces20:36
flaper87amrith: ++20:36
mesteryttx: I don't think "no to go and yes to dataplane things" makes sense.20:36
edleafedougwig: the point is that the language chosen doesn't make it more or less innovative20:37
mugsiettx: ah. so a different question to "dataplaney things"20:37
russellbmestery: that's status quo right?20:37
dhellmanndtroyer : that's the question. I don't want to offer a knee-jerk answer, but "if one of these things is not like the others..."20:37
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mesteryrussellb: It appears to be yes20:37
bswartzdougwig: "if you want to innovate it a language other than python, go elsewhere" -- openstack can't and shouldn't do literally everything20:37
notmorganrussellb: pretty much.20:37
thingeettx: notmyname has said in the ML it can still be done, it's just about having the best tool to avoid investing so much time.20:37
dtroyerdhellmann: we have a lot of housecleaning to do if that is the case20:37
ttxthingee: what can be done ?20:37
dhellmanndtroyer : indeed20:37
dims_we are not even investing enough in moving to py34/pypy either...20:37
* thingee looks to notmyname20:37
dougwigedleafe, bswartz: there's not much innovation in rest wrappers, and that's all we'd be left with.20:37
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dhellmanndougwig : is nova a "rest wrapper"?20:38
mesterySo, again: If we decline to accept Go waht does that mean for Swift and Designate here?20:38
notmynamethingee: don't get me wrong. I think it's a bad idea for the swift community to try to reinvent the golang runtime in python. is it possible? probably would be to some extent (hey, python is turing complete). but it wouldn't help any end user20:38
dougwigaround libvirt, absolutely.20:38
mesteryI understand the precedent it sets, but I guess we're telling them to move their Golang stuff somewhere else20:38
sdaguedougwig: you are right, there is definitely no inovation in that million lines of code :)20:38
russellbcertainly not that simple ... nova doesn't implement a hypervisor, but ti implements a significant control plane for many hypervisors20:38
dhellmanndougwig : I see some useful innovation there20:38
greghaynesJust to be clear - not accepting go as a generally OK solution does not imply not accepting the swift hummingbird code20:38
mesterySorry, not accept Golang20:38
mestery*sigh*, mind slower than fingers20:39
dougwigsdague, dhellmann: don't rain on my hyperbolic parade.20:39
russellbsimilar to neutron not implementing a virtual switch, but it implements an extensive control plane implementation to orchestrate many virtual switches20:39
ttxgreghaynes: how ?20:39
russellb"dataplany things" isn't easy to define20:39
mesteryrussellb: Agreed20:39
ttxrussellb: especially if you say smart/dataplaney20:39
greghaynesthat was a lot of false negatives, but we can still say that hummingbird is a special case and we can consider other special cases as they arise20:39
flaper87russellb: one could even consider glance a dataplane thing, tbh20:39
amriththis conversation reminds me of long discussions I've seen when people first started using NoSQL databases. It was always 'one-size-fits-all' RDBMS (from one vendor) till someone brought up NoSQL. There was all of these same kinds of objections but today we are much better off in the world with the 'best database for the job'. I realize that there is a cost involved in accepting a new language but maybe we should20:39
amrithseriously consider whether this is an issue of being the right tool for the job, or just another tool for the job.20:39
ttxAlthough "anything that would require go" is I think a good starting point20:39
dtroyerflaper87: it is20:39
dhellmannrussellb : if the purpose is to move data, and not to tell other services how to move data?20:39
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notmynameif the TC says "no" to golang or says swift can't land golang code, then that will lead to the situation of "here's the openstack code, but don't run it, use that other one over there instead"20:40
ttxnotmyname: yeah, that would be silly20:40
hogepodgeLike ceph20:40
mesteryttx notmyname: Yes, that would be silly20:40
edleafeamrith: agreed on the DB argument, but we don't have to test/maintain those projects20:40
notmynamettx: that assumes you're not kicking swift out of openstack ;-)20:40
ttxwhich is why I don't think that's an option20:40
notmorgannotmyname: not going to happen if i can have any say at all.20:40
dtroyerttx: so what options are left then?  (remind us)20:41
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notmorgannotmyname: sorry to clarify, no kicking swift out is not a good/correct option20:41
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notmorgannotmyname: s/no//20:41
sdagueok, so this sounds like there is a set of people that would like to open this other issue around data plane services being part of OpenStack scope20:41
johnthetubaguyso I think we should talk about the API a second here, is that re-written in Go, for the swift thingy?20:41
ttxdtroyer: option 1: accept go, consider smart/dataplany things are totally fine as openstack projects20:41
sdaguewhich needs to be resolved prior to the go resolution20:41
notmynamealso, I'd like to be clear that the swift community (and myself personally) is not looking for a special dispensation for swift to do something. that's why we've been going through this: so that as a community we can find the right path forward20:41
russellbnotmyname: ++20:41
amrithedleafe, fair point. but the incremental effort was there (it was different). it was really the shift from 'this tool' to 'the right tool'.20:41
notmorgannotmyname: i personally appreciate it  a lot20:41
dims_notmyname : thanks for saying that20:42
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy : not yet, aiui, but we do already have folks talking about rewriting other parts of other services in go, just because they could20:42
ttxoption 2: consider OpenSTack is just an integration engine, spin out the smart/dataplaney components as external projects, integrate them in openstack projects20:42
flaper87ttx: are you planning to write a resolution for the dataplane issue?20:42
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ttxI'm not even sure that's a good idea20:42
dtroyersdague: are the two options ttx just listed what you are referring to?20:42
johnthetubaguydhellmann: its just if we say openstack is the API implementation, then that makes things trickier20:42
ttxI think that's a discussion we NEED to have20:42
annegentlehelp me understand why golang isn't pluggable into these projects? If the underlying implementation doesn't affect the user view API, is the concern leaky abstraction? Or contributor concerns?20:42
ttxbecause continue to hide it below the carpet won't do us any good20:42
sdagueannegentle: because the python version is going to rot20:42
flaper87ttx: I guess a topic for next week.20:42
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ttxIt's probably a topic for the next cycle20:43
ttxIt's a hard question20:43
notmynamejohnthetubaguy: FWIW, the end-user-facing parts of swift are not currently being considered to be rewritten in golang. there's way too much ecosystem plugins that we can't support apart from python (hello wsgi middleware)20:43
notmorganunfortunately, we need to address it sooner rather than later.20:43
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy : I think in this scenario, zarqar might be "dataplaney" but cue wouldn't be20:43
edleafettx: it's more than one question20:43
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dims_we just ran out of time.. ttx (43 mins)20:43
flaper87ttx: if it's for next cycle, how are we going to answer the go/no-go question?20:43
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annegentlesdague ok20:43
ttxMagnetoDB would be dataplany and Trove not20:43
flaper87Zaqar and Glance are dataplane services, fwiw20:44
johnthetubaguynotmyname: OK, thanks, thats a good data point (and makes sense)20:44
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ttxyes, we need to move on20:44
annegentlenotmyname super helpful, yes20:44
flaper87So, we need to define very well what we mena20:44
sdagueflaper87: glance is only about 1/2 dataplane, given how most people configure it20:44
flaper87mena, even20:44
annegentleflaper87 heh20:44
* mestery hands flaper87 coffee20:44
amrithflaper87, not sure about glance but you know glance better than I do.20:44
notmynamesdague: as we do golang implementation, I'm not wanting to have both python and golang stuff long-term that do the same thing in swift. one implementation, one codebase20:44
johnthetubaguysdague: +1 its tricker with glance20:44
flaper87mestery: <320:44
sdaguenotmyname: right, and I 100% agree with that approach20:44
ttxI would like to check again if anyone thinks saying "no to Golang but we want smart/dataplany things in OpenStack" makes any sense. So far haven't seen anyone considering that would be a sane outcome20:44
notmorganso i think this comes down to even more defined: Golang is "OK" but should only be used in the dataplane?20:44
johnthetubaguynotmyname: sdague: +120:45
sdaguedueling backends when the team only is focused on one isn't a good situation for anyone20:45
notmorgans/think this/is this?20:45
dhellmannttx: no, that doesn't make a lot of sense20:45
ttxnotmorgan: that would be an interesting way of phrasing "yes to golang"20:45
flaper87amrith: sdague I'd honestly classify it as dataplane but it also depends on the backend. The API is certainly a data API. *shrugs*20:45
* flaper87 stfu and lets ttx switch topics20:45
notmorganttx: i think that makes me feel a lot better about this and resolves my internal conflicts20:45
ttxnotmorgan: but I doubt we'll be able to police the use of golang once it's approved20:45
notmorganttx: guidelines are just that20:45
amrithflaper87 ++20:45
dims_ttx : don't know if we have to end up vetting every use of golang in projects..20:45
ttxok, we need to move on -- I'll probably follow up with a thread (or someone else will)20:46
johnthetubaguyflaper87: I was thinking about ceph users, and folks where you upload/dowload straight to/from swift, etc20:46
notmorganttx: best effort, but recommendation is this and we can mandate a couple things to help push towards that.20:46
johnthetubaguyflaper87: but basically agreeing with both of you20:46
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dims_notmorgan ++20:46
ttxI'll also summarize that "no to golang but yes we still very much want smart/dataplany things in openstack" is actually not a very viable option20:46
notmorganttx: in short, i am for golang and officially recommending it is only used in dataplanes - and adding the "dataplane is ok"20:46
dims_ttx agree20:46
flaper87johnthetubaguy: prolly "dataplane" is not the right way to describe these set of services20:47
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dims_notmorgan : +120:47
edleafeflaper87: +120:47
ttxI think that simplifies the whole cost/benefit discussion20:47
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ttxwe need Go if we want to keep all projects we have today in openstack, as much as we needed JS if we wane20:47
notmorganit strikes as much balance as we can, while remaining inclusive20:47
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ttxwanted Horizon in*20:47
notmorganit doesn't mean we have to include every dataplane20:47
thingeettx: move on :)20:47
ttxok ok20:48
ttx#topic Add new project openstack-salt20:48
johnthetubaguyflaper87: ack20:48
*** openstack changes topic to "Add new project openstack-salt (Meeting topic: tc)"20:48
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/31453120:48
ttxThat is another downstream packaging/deployment team, like the Ansible, Puppet, Chef ones...20:48
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ttxI feel like those were successful in having people collaborate on the same set of recipes/formulas rather than dozens of forks of varying quality20:48
flaper87this topic feels like a breeze after the golang topic20:48
ttxSo it feels like we should have one team for Salt as well20:48
ttxflaper87: we can't just have easy questions, sometimes the hard questions hit20:48
dims_looks like 8 +1 Rollcall-Vote already :)20:49
dhellmannI'm a little disappointed in the choice of release model here, but welcome the team anyway20:49
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* thingee was waiting for dhellmann to sign off on that20:49
anteayathis is the second round of salt repos20:49
mtreinishdhellmann: well, that can change at any point20:49
ttxThe team pushing that is the tcpcloud guys, who did the fun IoT demo at the summit20:49
notmorgani am ok with including salt, but i would much rather them be trailing20:49
dims_dhellmann : we embrace them and then change their mind :)20:49
anteayathe first set got put in the attic20:49
notmorganinstead of "independant"20:49
dhellmannmtreinish : no, it can only change prior to the first milestone of a cycle20:49
notmorganbut i can't force a release model on people.20:50
ttxnotmorgan, dhellmann: they could evolve over time20:50
notmorganttx: i would hope they do.20:50
dhellmannyeah, they can change it next cycle if they end up not liking the outcome this time20:50
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thingeemtreinish: yeah they have until R-1820:50
dhellmannit's definitely not a blocker, I just wanted to make sure they were clear about the implications20:50
ttxyou still have a couple of weeks to convince them to change it before n120:50
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johnthetubaguyyeah, I hope the move to trailing too, but yeah, it should be their choice20:50
dims_dhellmann : agree20:50
ttxwe could have that discussion again with them20:50
dhellmannif you like. I've explained it, they've signed off. I'm ok with leaving it for this cycle. I just wanted to state it for the record, lest they come back surprised at the end when we don't say the salt formulas are "part of newton"20:51
fungiyeah, i'm curious what becomes of the old stackforge/nova-salt-formula et al20:51
sdaguedhellmann: ++20:51
fungiwe still have them all in git, only retired20:51
johnthetubaguydo they have a "single" version of salt that supports many versions of openstack, it wasn't clear if thats why they wanted independent?20:52
johnthetubaguyanyways, I should go ask them really20:52
funginot a fan of slash-and-burn adding new repos to replace old repos rather than reactivating and continuing them20:52
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ttxfungi: is that something that could be fixed ? Or did they recreate new repos already ?20:53
anteayafungi: agreed20:53
fungithey already have new repos, looks like20:53
anteayawhich was my argument when I first found out new repos had been created20:53
fungiwater under teh bridge now, but not a precedent i like to set20:53
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy : that was my impression20:54
ttxok, no more objections ?20:54
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fungitheir new replacement repos are, e.g., openstack/salt-formula-nova20:54
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notmorganno objections as long as they understand that what independant really means.20:54
ttxwe'll make sure of that.20:55
ttxok, approving20:55
dhellmannnotmorgan: all will be made clear in time20:55
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ttx#topic Open discussion20:55
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:55
ttxAnything else, anyone ?20:55
dhellmannwhere are people planning to stay in ann arbor?20:55
annegentledowntown dhellmann for me20:55
annegentledhellmann can't recall the name of the hotel but it was the only one in the corp. system I could get :)20:56
russellbi booked the courtyard in ann arbor20:56
ttxdhellmann: downtown... Might try one of those B&B that gothicmindfood suggested20:56
mesteryI was thinking the Sheraton20:56
* flaper87 takes note as he hasn't booked anything yet20:56
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notmorganttx: trust gothicmindfood's suggestions for sure.20:56
dhellmannmestery : I'm in the sheraton20:56
russellbmestery: mine is next door to the sheraton20:56
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dims_is having a tag named "co-installable" useful information? (projects that have been tested together... list of projects subject to requirements process)20:56
mesterydhellmann russellb: Ack :)20:56
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johnthetubaguyI was going to ask about the OSIC bug bash/smash event thing20:56
mtreinishdims_: I like that idea20:56
* gothicmindfood recommends things downtown ann-arbory20:57
johnthetubaguyOSIC is thinking of doing another one, as wondering about the best date20:57
johnthetubaguyI am promised an ML thread about it20:57
dims_mtreinish : ok i'll ping you later when i have some initial draft20:57
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy : earlier in the cycle, and not on a milestone date20:57
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dhellmannor week even20:57
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johnthetubaguyjust after n-2 is the current suggestion20:57
mtreinishdims_: ok cool20:57
anteayajohnthetubaguy: didn't flanders start one on the usercomittee ml?20:57
johnthetubaguyideally not clashing with midcycles20:57
johnthetubaguyanteaya: oh, possibly20:57
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy : that seems ok-ish from a release perspective20:57
annegentledims_ I think it would be useful20:57
johnthetubaguydhellmann: yeah, that seems less terrible to me at least20:58
amrithdhellmann, did you have a place in mind?20:58
anteayajohnthetubaguy: I thought I saw one, I think they call it hackfest20:58
dims_thanks annegentle. will ping you too20:58
dhellmannamrith : for ann arbor? I'm going to be at the sheraton20:58
amrithdhellmann, yes. thx20:58
johnthetubaguyanteaya: yeah, that sounds right, the name seems to change each year20:58
amrithseems like that's where the majority are.20:58
rockyganteaya, that's a hackathon in Guadalehara20:58
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anteayajohnthetubaguy: it does indeed20:58
dhellmannanteaya : oh, I thought that was something else20:58
rockygSorry bout the speelling20:58
ttxin other news, some people have complained about the TC meeting being just too noisy. Feel free to shout suggestions on how to fix that. I still would prefer not to have to use voicing to reduce parallel discussions, but maybe that's a solution to slow down the discussion20:58
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anteayajohnthetubaguy: I have OpenStack Hackathon: start to planning and recruiting as a subject line20:59
anteayadhellmann: oh is that some other thing?20:59
annegentleI'm working on idea for docs tags, to show which project have certain types of docs. Also need to determine which projects need REST API docs.20:59
johnthetubaguythat could be different, I will take a peak20:59
johnthetubaguyannegentle: nice20:59
rockyganteaya, yup, something else20:59
dhellmannanteaya : I thought so, but could be wrong20:59
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: the bug smash was pretty ineffective last time though. It would be better to post mortem and figure out a better approach I think20:59
anteayajohnthetubaguy dhellmann if I'm wrong do say so20:59
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flaper87ttx: to be honest, when topics get too heated, it gets harder for me to follow all discussions. I try to just follow one but then I get distracted AND it feels bad to ignore the rest. Also, you never know when someone might actually say something on topic21:00
dhellmannsdague : I had word that other sites had better outcomes, but I agree in general21:00
flaper87maybe it's just me21:00
* flaper87 shrugs21:00
dhellmannflaper87 : ++21:00
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johnthetubaguysdague: yeah, it was hit and miss, where I went there were very few folks to start with21:00
dtroyerflaper87: not just you21:00
ttxI usually read scrollback and thenrepsond to an old question, further killing the discussion21:00
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christx2hello from London21:00
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johnthetubaguysdague: I will ask about some discussion on the format21:00
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anteayachristx2: stand by for the scientific meeting21:01
anteayachristx2: the tc meeting is in progress still21:01
dhellmannah, we're over21:01
ttxflaper87: one alternative is to take turns to speak. It will slow down things dramatically, but maybe would be more productive21:01
edleafeflaper87: we should keep all those non-TC folks from posting :)21:01
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ttxalright, let's clear the room21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
* amrith runs for the door21:01
flaper87edleafe: HA! we like you21:01
dhellmannttx: it's worth trying once21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 17 21:01:40 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-17-20.02.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-17-20.02.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-17-20.02.log.html21:01
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ttxedleafe: they/you actually provide more value than noise usually21:01
* rockyg picks up a broom and starts a nice little dust pile21:01
anteayanow it is time for the scientific-wg meeting21:02
flaper87ttx: edleafe ++21:02
b1airohi all, looks like it's over to the scientific-wg now!21:02
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johnthetubaguydhellmann: +1 it can't hurt to try it21:02
b1airo#startmeeting scientific-wg21:03
openstackMeeting started Tue May 17 21:03:01 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is b1airo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:03
anteayab1airo: hello21:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg'21:03
b1airoah g'day there you are - the list of lurkers here is ridiculous21:03
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anteayab1airo: if you use the command #chair oneswig the Stig can also be chair21:03
anteayab1airo: you are chair since you started the meeting21:03
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b1airothanks anteaya21:04
b1airo#chair oneswig21:04
openstackCurrent chairs: b1airo oneswig21:04
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oneswigooh, the power21:04
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b1airodon't go all voldemort on us21:04
anteayanow it will recognize commands from either of you21:04
b1airo#topic roll-call21:05
*** openstack changes topic to "roll-call (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:05
* dfflanders yawns21:05
* dfflanders waking up21:05
james__ \o/21:05
b1airoany IRC first timers here for scientific-wg21:05
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james__I am from sanger21:05
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rbuddennot new to IRC but new to the OpenStack IRC meetings21:05
oneswigcertainly not an old hand at this21:05
ptrlvditto here21:05
b1airoif you can shout out hello that'd be good - so we get an idea of who is actually participating21:06
b1airorbudden: me too21:06
rbuddenb1airo: yeah, I usually lurk in openstack-ironic21:06
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oneswig#topic Newton cycle activity planning and brainstorming21:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Newton cycle activity planning and brainstorming (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:07
b1airowell this is my first time on IRC in months, was using it for our cloud here in australia but then moved over to slack so that the managery folks could get engaged easuer21:07
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b1airofirst question / discussion point21:08
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anteayavery common usecase21:08
oneswigWe have two meeting times, which is going to make it tricky to reach a split-brained consensus on things21:08
oneswigBut we'll converge I expect21:09
b1airois anyone aware of any specs we should be cognisant of?21:09
anteayafolks who want to agree find a way21:09
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anteayawell this group keeps mentioning the scheduler in nova21:09
anteayais anyone following that work?21:09
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anteayaor attending the scheduler meetings?21:09
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b1airoi have to admit i have not yet done my usual post-summit spec perusal21:10
oneswigNot me but I'm interested in the scheduler's revised treatment of Ironic21:10
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rbuddennot following yet, but had some discussions at the summit about it21:10
oneswigI'm also interested in the work on Ironic serial console support, while we are there21:10
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anteayaokay well whoever is interested in tracking scheduler decisions make themselves known so I can help you find meetings and specs21:11
oneswigA long-standing spec seems to be finally getting traction21:11
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rbuddenthe short story I was told is that they are aware a slew of issues and a major rewrite is under way21:11
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rbuddenbut i’d defer to their meetings for the full truth ;)21:11
anteayafor instance here is the scheduler team meeting info21:12
anteaya#link scheduler meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Nova_Scheduler_Team_Meeting21:12
oneswiganteaya: thanks for that21:12
b1airoi think where we can add value here as a working group is in ppl discussing issues with the specs in this forum and then we can take that to the project on the mail-list or what have you. the problem i've found with this in the past is that, whilst you can comment on specs easily enough, you're just one little voice that (probably) no-one on the dev team knows.21:13
b1airoand of course gerrit is not that great for conversations21:13
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dfflanders+1 this is the purpose of the WG having task-forces per cycle21:13
oneswigI agree, I've found most issues raised from here have common cause with many others21:13
anteayawhen you read the meeting minutes anything with #link stands out21:13
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anteayab1airo: agreed21:14
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b1airook so -21:14
dabukalamb1airo: I've also noticed that in the past, groups that meet regularly on IRC gain traction slowly over time if they're consistent, which means that little voice turns into a much larger and well-respected voice.21:14
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b1airo#action ALL: raise specs of interest to the working-group on the mailing list21:14
oneswig#agreed collective input on specs is good21:14
dfflandersas to which of the task-forces in this WG does the scheduler work align to?21:14
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anteayaplus you can link to meeting logs as they are archived21:15
anteayaso that helps to show that a group has made a decision21:15
anteayaor is in accord21:15
anteayadabukalam: very much so21:15
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b1airodfflanders: no clear one - but accounting might be closest21:15
b1airoalso ironic21:15
christx2nuage here - interested in ironic / baremetal use cases21:15
rbuddenthere are definitely scheduler issues with ironic21:16
b1airohi christx221:16
dfflandersimportant that we have a clear statement for what we are jointly representing on behalf of the user.21:16
dfflandersscientific users21:16
LyleWintonslash research users.  ;)21:17
b1airodfflanders: are you raising "mission statement" as a point of discussion?21:17
oneswigShall we go through the four tasks in turn21:17
b1airoone item of house-keeping first21:17
oneswiggo ahead21:17
anteayadfflanders: well for starters I think it is important for those interested to start tracking the existing work21:17
b1airotask-tracking - is everyone happy to use trello for the moment?21:18
anteayasetting up barriers to doing that actually slows things down21:18
dfflandersblairo +121:18
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b1airo(we can defer to established infra practices where appropriate, but storyboard seems a bit overkill for us at this point)21:18
oneswigI am happy with trello for tracking where we are21:18
oneswigI don't think we'll overflow it21:18
james__I dislike trello however.... if that is the standard21:19
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b1airoi suspect it'll mainly be used by oneswig and i anyway21:19
anteayajames__: it isn't21:19
dfflandersyes good way for chairs to keep track of task-force progress21:19
b1airomore of a chair coordination thing, but useful to ping people assigned to tasks and gather extra details in one place21:20
anteayacan we find other words that don't militarize the effort?21:20
dfflandersanteaya: glad to let's discuss on the user-committee mailing list.21:20
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anteayaor here21:20
oneswigGiven Trello has zero setup effort, little is lost if we decide to drop it again21:20
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anteayathe point of the meeting is to discuss thing21:21
b1airosorry anteaya, which words?21:21
anteayanot just punt everything to a mailing list21:21
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anteayatask force21:21
b1airoah right21:21
anteayaI don't think the effort needs militarizing21:21
b1airosub-team ?21:21
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anteayab1airo: that works21:22
b1airored-wing ;-)21:22
anteayaoneswig: so does that21:22
oneswigactivity sub-team??21:22
oneswigany others?21:22
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b1airoi like "activity"21:22
anteayaI don't know what red-wing means21:22
anteayaI think blackbird on that21:22
anteayaalso noone needs to be blessed to attend any meeting or track and comment on any spec21:22
dfflanderstime check21:23
anteayaso please don't feel you need permission from anyone to do so, if you are interested in a thing, track it21:23
oneswig#agreed we'll call the activities "activities" from here on21:23
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jmloweso is the scientific meeting still going? I'm a bit late21:23
oneswig#topic User Stories21:23
*** openstack changes topic to "User Stories (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:23
oneswigHi Mike21:23
b1airohi jmlowe - yep21:23
rbuddenhello Mike21:23
jmloweHey Bob21:24
anteayajmlowe: welcome, can you read the channel topic in your irc client?21:24
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anteayajmlowe: that is a good way to see what activity is currently ongoing in a channel21:24
jmloweah, yeah, just noticed21:24
oneswigIt seems the foundation's got some doubts about the wiki21:24
anteayajmlowe: awesome21:24
anteayaoneswig: not the foundation21:24
oneswigIs there a more appropriate way of storing information?21:24
anteayathe infra team21:24
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b1airothe infra team21:24
anteayawhich maintains the wiki21:24
oneswiganteaya: right21:25
anteayause the wiki for now21:25
qwebirc65959boas@systemfabricworks.com join21:25
oneswiganteaya: was there a decision or still collecting feedback on wiki uses?21:25
oneswigHello Bill21:25
b1airomy first question re. user stories is, is there a standard we need to follow - i assume there is just a repo somewhere with an RST template and away we go?21:25
oneswigSeveral levels of standards I think21:26
qwebirc65959Hi Stig21:26
leongfor the user story, the product wg has a template and repo21:26
b1airohi Bill (qwebirc65959)21:26
oneswigI need to read some of them - should have prepared21:26
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qwebirc65959hi Blair21:26
anteayawe just have a long term direction of finding information sharing tools that are less attractive to spammers21:26
anteayathe decision was to take the next year and find tools that are less attractive to spammers21:26
anteayaoneswig: so use the wiki as you need to21:26
rockygleong, ++  You can start by using the Prod wg template21:26
oneswig#action oneswig to read user stories and understand their scoping21:26
leonghere's a link the the product wg user story repo21:27
leong#link product_wg user story repo: https://github.com/openstack/openstack-user-stories/tree/master/user-stories/proposed21:27
b1airooneswig, yes i think it's the scoping that i'm wondering about too21:27
oneswigleong: thanks21:27
b1airothat will help us determine what stories we might contribute21:27
leongthe product wg follow the openstack development flow and using gerrit to track21:27
oneswigBut there are also reference architectures, which are more detailed, right?21:27
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leongthe template can be found here:21:27
b1airoi get the feeling it's closer to personas that specific use-cases, but just guessing really21:28
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leong#link product_wg user story template: https://github.com/openstack/openstack-user-stories/blob/master/user-story-template.rst21:28
leongEnterprise WG is working on a series of Reference Architectire21:28
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ptrlvEach activity has an etherpad ready to go right? was the intention to distill info into those? eg.21:28
oneswigleong: thanks, I'll look for those too and report back21:29
ptrlv#link stories https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/scientific-wg-austin-summit-stories21:29
b1airo#link https://github.com/openstack/openstack-user-stories/blob/master/HACKING.rst looks like a good place to start reading oneswig21:29
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b1airoptrlv: that's one option for sure21:29
oneswigb1airo: thanks21:29
dc_mattjsorry all, had a family A&E visit so missed the first half of this meeting21:30
christx2if someone can pass the nova scheduler issues with ironic on, a review item - that would be great21:30
b1airodc_mattj: yikes!21:30
dc_mattjnothing serious in the end, but obviously takes hours21:30
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oneswigdc_mattj: thanks for making it21:30
james__ /o\ dc_mattj21:30
christx2we are doing work on provisioning networks to ironic baremetal instances21:31
oneswigptrlv: are you thinking for planning here and now or tracking as we go along?21:31
oneswigchristx2: don't think we've got on to that yet21:31
b1airochristx2: what action did you want there - "raise nova-scheduler issues with ironic for further discussion on mailing list" ?21:32
b1airook, let's hold it and finish user-stories21:32
LyleWintonNot sure about the rest of you, but thinking we should look for use cases with community wide traction.  How do we discuss/determine which these are?21:32
dc_mattjsorry if you guys have already done this, but do you have an open ether pad I can refer to ?21:33
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anteayaif we can lets use links to git.openstack.org21:33
anteayagit.openstack.org is the infra supported servers21:33
anteayagithub is propriatary and we don't have control over their decisions21:33
anteayaso links to git.openstack.org is preferred please21:33
anteayachristx2: what do you mean?21:33
anteayaLyleWinton: community wide meaning scientific community wide?21:33
ptrlvoneswig: I was thinking the main etherpad was a mess and we could summarize things a little more coherently. Dunno, what did you intend those other pads for?21:33
oneswigLyleWinton: I think every use case I've heard of has some differences but much in common21:33
b1airoi think we have LyleWinton (in the summit meetings) - but we can be always open to new stuff if there are ppl willing to work21:33
oneswigLyleWinton: it might come down to who comes forward to document their case21:33
christx2oneswig: cool, will hang back until we do..21:34
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anteayaLyleWinton: Yep to what?21:34
LyleWintonSure, happy to let it evolve.21:34
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LyleWinton(yep to "community wide meaning scientific community wide?")21:34
b1airoptrlv: actually that's another action i think - moving some etherpad content to wiki and also creating a parking lot21:34
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oneswigEtherpads: it's a good idea ptrlv, we can revive those from the summit session21:35
anteayaLyleWinton: ah thank you21:35
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anteayaLyleWinton: if you are replying to a specific querant it helps to use the querant's name21:35
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anteayafor instance for you in my client I type Ly and hit the tab button21:35
dc_mattjoneswig: probably good to start some new ones with the main points as topics, and with the summit ones linked21:35
anteayaand you name autocompletes21:36
LyleWintonanteaya: will do.  IRC noob21:36
anteayaLyleWinton: so you know I am replying to you21:36
b1airowe should make it a goal of this cycle to not create the (effectively) the same etherpad again in Barcelona (which seems to happen more than it should)21:36
anteayaLyleWinton: yup, I know, glad you are here, happy to support the learning process21:36
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dc_mattjblairo: +121:36
oneswigThere's an action outstanding for solidifying some of the etherpad notes into wiki statements, can anyone take it (or shall I?)21:36
leongblairo +121:36
b1airoi will21:36
oneswigb1airo: good man21:37
b1airo#action b1airo to "solidify" etherpad notes to wiki21:37
oneswig#action b1airo to collect notes from etherpads from sessions into WG wiki21:37
oneswigsplit brain!21:37
dc_mattjlook at that for teamwork21:37
oneswigyou drive :-)21:37
b1airowell, there are two main etherpads21:37
anteayaif one of you does #undo the last command is removed from the minutes21:37
oneswighow to arbitrate?21:37
oneswigI will21:38
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b1airorock, paper, scissors ...? ;-)21:38
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0xa7f8a10>21:38
b1airothat was a close one21:38
oneswigOK, next item?21:38
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LyleWintonOne more agreement coming from the Austin friday morning face to face: We'd like to promote our scientific cloud profiles but we were unsure where.21:38
ptrlv#link austin-pad https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/scientific-wg-austin-summit-agenda21:38
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b1airoLyleWinton, i think that'll come with a new page on openstack.org21:39
oneswigLyleWinton: Is this the register of community clouds?21:39
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b1airoamirite dfflanders ?21:39
b1airohowever, we could get started now with a wiki page21:39
LyleWintonThere were 2 thoughts.  First https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/science-clouds which we updated.  The second, more coming from flanders afterwards, was to work on a new Marketplace category for community/scientific could listsing.21:40
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leongLyleWinton you mean something like http://www.openstack.org/enterprise21:40
oneswigThere was a short list gathered, but it will need details on access, availability etc21:40
b1airook cool. i'm gonna take that into my wiki update action then21:40
oneswigleong: great page!  yes!21:40
leonge.g. http://www.openstack.org/scientific?21:41
b1airo#action b1airo to wiki-ify #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/science-clouds21:41
LyleWintonLike https://www.openstack.org/marketplace/public-clouds/21:41
b1airook, we need to move onto bare-metal21:41
oneswigWhen does a publ21:41
oneswigpublic cloud become a science cloud?21:41
b1airo#topic bare-metal21:41
*** openstack changes topic to "bare-metal (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:41
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LyleWintonleong: that would also be cool!21:42
b1airooneswig, good question... maybe when it is not-for-profit ?21:42
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james__Its to do with the work load I would say21:42
LyleWintonA science cloud has community access restrictions.21:42
anteayab1airo: oh I think that would be a ball of yarn21:42
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james__science is more cpu heavy than most web serving for example21:42
b1airoLyleWinton, yes good point21:43
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anteayab1airo: I think have you and oneswig decide what goes on the page for now and then build criteria from that21:43
james__There is commericial and accedemic science clouds21:43
leongi think there are two things: if you are talking about offering a scientific cloud for people to use, that might fall under the marketplacce21:43
oneswigOK, so there could be distinctions21:43
oneswigIronic anyone?21:43
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rbuddenwe use Ironic21:44
oneswigI'm restating, I'm interested in tracking the serial console work.  Had some good discussions with the chameleon team wrt this at the summit21:44
rbuddenso I’m interested21:44
LyleWintonjames__: There's commercial use of cloud from scientific, but that's different.  I think we have to keep it a simple definition.21:44
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LyleWintononeswig: link to serial console work?21:44
christx2primary use cases are network provisioning to a baremetal instance21:44
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anteayaoneswig: the chameleon team?21:45
oneswig#link serial console etherpad https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ironic-newton-summit-console21:45
christx2i heard earlier that ironic is broken, so i'm curious who is using it and what network topologies they use21:45
james__One worry about ironic is in the clean up21:45
oneswigChameleon is an NSF project, bare metal research cloud21:45
b1airochristx2, which part of the network provisioning? tenant and provider, or provisioning network?21:45
dc_mattjoneswig: us public clouds will take anyone who gives us money21:45
anteayachristx2: can you expand on 'I heard earlier that ironic is broken'?21:46
christx2on the channel earlier  a comment was made "nova scheduler issues affecting ironic"21:46
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james__+1 to "broken" for tenants.21:46
LyleWintondc_mattj:  Us community clouds will take anyone from the community... and possibly who give us money... ;)21:46
dc_mattjLyleWinton: lol21:46
ptrlvthe bare-metal/ironic discussion in austin was mostly rbudden's experience21:47
oneswigSo what I know about tenant networking in Ironic is that you need a provisioning network which probably has to be flat.  Additional networks can be segmented (vlans)21:47
b1airoi don't know really anything current about ironic, but i'm surprised by the notion that tenant networks are "broken", there must be more to it21:47
rbuddenchristx2: we have nova scheduler issues that cause issues provisioning our cluster21:47
ptrlvrbudden: I recall much interest from other so maybe you cansummarize your stuff in more detail21:47
christx2okay, is this documented and which release of openstack?21:47
b1airooneswig, surely segmentation requirement goes without saying21:47
oneswigThere was a talk on it at Tokyo, I'll dig for it21:47
b1airo(assuming you want tenant networks for isolation in the first place)21:47
christx2yep, the vlan segmentation is what we are targeting with what we do21:47
james__I have heard things around accounting, cleaning the machine out.21:48
dc_mattjits quite interesting there seems to be a lot of this around ironic - is there a definitive document which says what works, what's broken etc. ?21:48
rbuddenptrlv: main overview at PSC is that we have an 800+ node HPC cluster being managed by Ironic21:48
christx2okay, got it. the HW we use is HP and interfacing ilo21:48
b1airohypervisor support matrix?21:48
dc_mattjis it still the case that everything has to be in the same L2 domain ?21:48
ptrlvrbudden: yeah, more thinking that you hit problem which others hit too21:48
james__For example the clean out I have heard doesn't work on "standard" ilo's21:48
oneswig#link tenant network isolation in ironic https://www.openstack.org/videos/video/tokyo-192921:48
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rbuddenptrlv: we’ve hit some issues with the largest issue being the nova scheduler and race conditions when trying to simultaneous provision large portions of the cluster21:49
b1airorbudden, cool! but i guess you don't have ironic managing any tenant isolation21:49
rbuddenno, we aren’t using Neutron21:49
b1airojust for your own provisioning management?21:49
oneswigdc_mattj: unfortunately there is only one document - python sources21:49
b1airothen you run a regular batch-system over it?21:49
anteayaoneswig: thank you21:50
anteayachristx2: on which channel?21:50
anteayajroll: ^^21:50
anteayab1airo: thank you, I also am curious about details on this assertion21:50
anteayaI'm still not clear where the asserstion came from that anything is broken21:50
rbuddenb1airo: correct, we run Slurm as the default for doing batch scheduling, then use Puppet to dynamically configure the nodes into things like separate Hadoop clusters, etc. when necessary21:50
jprscience is also code word for pets. ;)  so we also want to encourage good cloud dev habits.   acknowledging that there will be a period of adoption/pain as app deployment models migrate.21:50
james__Comments from the manchester meetup for me.21:50
* jroll listens21:50
b1airojpr, yes re. pets :-)21:50
rbuddenb1airo: also use Slurm to spin up Nova Computes if we need VMs on Bridges PVT21:50
christx2anteaya: not sure what you mean21:50
rbuddenIronic is mainly for reimaging the machine21:50
anteayajroll: apparently someone somewhere said ironic is broken21:51
christx2yes, on this channel21:51
anteayajroll: so now christx2 is repeating that ironic is broken21:51
rockygRe:  what is a science cloud?   I think what many think of as science clouds are clouds that provide resources to run scientific investigations.  So, science "loads."21:51
anteayajroll: but I haven't found out any details21:51
rockygThere are lots of simulations that don't use pets, though.21:51
anteayachristx2: during this meeting?21:51
jrollchristx2: what's broken? I see things about networking21:51
rbuddenb1airo: we don’t reimage frequently, mainly due to the nova scheduler issues and it taking 1.5 days to reimage the entire cluster ;)21:51
christx2let me scroll bac21:51
jrollchristx2: we have some... limitations, yes. we're working on it making it better21:51
anteayachristx2: jroll is the ironit ptl (project team lead)21:51
b1airothe issue i have with deploying ironic in a multi-tenant environment is with disconnecting the provisioning network once the instance is booted21:52
LyleWintonjpr: "science is code for pets".  Harsh dude. Sure, we're not advanced, but our codes include decades of experimental and methods validation.21:52
oneswigjroll: hi - follow up on the discussion re: flaky bmcs - is there anything operators could do to help with taxonomy of problems?21:52
james__Ironic issues in ensuring that the machine is cleaned between tenants.21:52
rockygjroll, can only use a flat network?  L2?21:52
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jprlylewinton, understood and not meant to be harsh.  totally recognize what's going on there.21:52
b1airorequires switch orchestration, and generally all our management/provisioning gear is on a different part of the network with FEXes and stuff that aren't supported in Neutron21:52
jrollrockyg: yes, L2 or L3, doesn't matter, but data plane and control plane must be the same network today21:53
christx2christx2: what action did you want there - "raise nova-scheduler issues with ironic for further discussion on mailing list" ?21:53
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jprthere is value in those pets but  more so as image definitions rather than specific instances.   that's where the value of a curated execution environment comes in.21:53
dc_mattjoneswig: someone who's using ironic should take an action to document that stuff for the wider community21:53
jrolloneswig: JayF is working on a spec for handling bmcs better, you might talk to him21:53
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oneswigjroll: OK thanks, I'll look out for him21:54
jrolls/better/more automagically/21:54
rockygjroll, ^^what blairo said21:54
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oneswig#action oneswig to raise BMC failure modes with JayF21:54
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rbuddendc_mattj: i have logs of some of the nova scheduler issues, along with other problems i’ve encountered. my personal goal is to file some bugs and have some fixes for what i’ve seen and tested21:54
b1airo#action discuss/identify current working and problem use-cases for ironic in research/hpc21:54
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dc_mattjoneswig: BMC's generally are a horror of inconsistency - see recent posts to the ops list21:55
b1airothat LCA video was great21:55
oneswigdc_mattj: saw them, and wept21:55
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LyleWintonjpr: don't worry, not taken too harshly. On our cloud, several thousand users, probably 50 embracing new cloud architecture. So expert community building and supporting new stack development are key parts of our strategy.21:55
b1airook, can we squeeze in HPFS quickly or shall we leave it for next week21:55
anteayaoneswig: he spends a lot of time in the #openstack-ironic channel21:55
anteayajroll: thanks for joining on short notice21:55
anteayajroll: I appreciate it21:55
dc_mattjoneswig: this is why making something like ironic work in any kind of general way across hardware platforms is horrific21:55
anteayajroll: :)21:55
jrollanteaya: very welcome21:56
rockyganteaya, jroll ++ thanks both of you21:56
oneswigjroll: thanks21:56
jrollto all of you: feel free to jump in the ironic channel whenever you want to chat more21:56
oneswigwe are almost out of time.  Any other business to raise?21:56
anteayab1airo: are we doing to have open discussion today?21:56
anteayathat is #openstack-ironic21:56
rbuddenjroll: i’ve been lurking, plan on becoming more active and getting involved in some dev as time permits21:56
anteayaI have an item for open discussion21:57
oneswig#topic AOB21:57
*** openstack changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:57
jrollrbudden: awesome :)21:57
b1airoanteaya, i think we have had open discussion all the way through :-) but if there's anything else...?21:57
christx2send the etherpad plz21:58
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christx2out to the group ;021:58
LyleWinton* waiting in anticipation for anteaya's item *21:58
b1airo#action b1airo to setup trello and post details for anyone interested in watching21:58
christx2or trello is fine21:58
anteayaoh okay well I'll wait until after this topic21:58
anteayaLyleWinton: oh okay21:58
anteayawell I'll just charge ahead then21:58
dc_mattjis there a new etherpad I've missed ?21:58
b1airoLyleWinton, i think it was just a reminder of usual formality21:58
anteayahave we been following an agenda for this meeting?21:59
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LyleWintonb1airo:  Oh, sorry, misunderstood21:59
oneswigWell kind of, half way through it21:59
b1airoanteaya, a very loose one21:59
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dc_mattjso you guys are going to use trello as opposed to etherpads ?21:59
b1airowe'll tighten it up for next week21:59
oneswig#link Agenda was https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_working_group#IRC_Meeting_May_17th_201621:59
anteayaokay in future after the meeting is begun can we link to the agenda?21:59
anteayayeah like that21:59
b1airodc_mattj, no not instead, but for tracking tasks yes21:59
oneswigonly at the start?21:59
anteayajust at the beginning of the meeting next time?21:59
anteayaoneswig: yes22:00
oneswigthanks everyone22:00
b1airoi have noticed ppl using etherpads as task trackers and it looks... messy?22:00
dc_mattjblairo: ok cool, will check it out22:00
anteayathank you22:00
dc_mattjblairo: that certainly can be true22:00
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anteayagreat first meeting22:00
anteayawell done22:00
b1airothanks all!22:00
rbuddenthanks everyone22:00
oneswiguntil next time22:00
rockyg+1 and thanks for all the mentoring, anteaya!22:00
christx2+1 thanks and bye22:00
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openstackMeeting ended Tue May 17 22:00:59 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-05-17-21.03.html22:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-05-17-21.03.txt22:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-05-17-21.03.log.html22:01
anteayarockyg: welcome22:01
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dabukalamoneswig, b1airo, nice :)22:01
b1airoyes thanks once again anteaya22:01
oneswigdabukalam: thanks!22:01
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anteayaso channel logs and meeting information is here: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/22:02
anteayaand you can see the links to the meeting minutes above22:02
anteayab1airo: welcome, nice work22:02
anteayaoneswig: and you too :)22:02
anteayaoneswig: are you in Manchester tomorrow night?22:02
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dc_mattjanteaya, hope it all goes well tomorrow night22:03
anteayadc_mattj: thank you22:03
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anteayadc_mattj: will you be here?22:03
dc_mattjanteaya, nope - I have to be at a meeting in Amsterdam22:04
anteayadc_mattj: I'll miss you22:04
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anteayadc_mattj: safe travels and I hope your meeting is productive22:04
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dc_mattjanteaya, you too22:04
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anteayathanks :)22:05
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