Tuesday, 2016-06-14

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hongbin#startmeeting zun03:00
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openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 14 03:00:04 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.03:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.03:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'zun'03:00
hongbin#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2016-06-14_0300_UTC Today's agenda03:00
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hongbin#topic Roll Call03:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
mkraiMadhuri Kumari03:00
WenzhiWenzhi Yu03:00
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hongbinThanks for joining the meeting eliqiao mkrai eliqiao sudipto Wenzhi Namrata haiwei_03:01
hongbinPause a few seconds for future pacticipants03:01
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hongbinQiming: hey03:02
yanyanhuhi, sorry I'm late03:02
hongbin#topic Announcements03:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)"03:02
hongbinEli Qiao is now a Zun cores!03:02
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eliqiaothanks hongbin and team.03:02
hongbinThanks Eli for your contribution and commitment03:03
haiwei_welcome Eli Qiao03:03
mkraiGreat addition03:03
mkraiWelcome eliqiao03:03
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yanyanhucon :)03:03
hongbinFor others, if you want to join the core team, please feel free to ping me03:03
eliqiaothx all.03:03
hongbinThe standard will be similar to recent added core03:03
hongbin#topic Review Action Items03:03
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hongbin1. hongbin submit a request to rename the project (Done by Eli Qiao)03:04
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hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326306/03:04
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/329247/03:04
hongbinEli proposed two patches to rename hte project03:04
hongbinThe first patch rename the IRC and launchpad03:04
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hongbinThe second patch rename in gerrit and git03:04
hongbinIt looks the second patch will take a while to land03:05
yanyanhuneed to wait for infra team's schedule to change gerrit and git03:05
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hongbinHopefully, the first patch will land soon03:05
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hongbinI was told that we should expect months for the next rename03:05
xiucaihi, xiucai just act as an auditor now :), may be core in someday.03:05
hongbinWe will talk about the transition period during these few months03:06
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hongbinxiucai: Hey, welcome to the team meeting03:06
hongbin2. hongbin create a bp for glance integration (DONE)03:06
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/glance-integration03:06
hongbinAny comment for the review actio item?03:07
hongbin#topic Project rename procedure03:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Project rename procedure (Meeting topic: zun)"03:07
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326306/ Rename request for infra team03:07
hongbinLet's discuss how should we do for the transition period03:07
yanyanhuhi, hongbin, so the job in gate side may not work during this migratin?03:07
hongbinwhich is from right now to the next rename03:08
hongbinyanyanhu: It looks the gate is working fine03:08
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yanyanhuhongbin, nice03:08
hongbinI saw the gate job passed03:08
yanyanhuso we just need to revise the gate job template after gerrit name is changed03:08
flwangsorry in another meeting03:09
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eliqiaohongbin: one more thing, dsvm only setup services, there is no any test case yet.03:09
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eliqiaohongbin: so we'd better to manually check devstack logs/screen log of service03:09
hongbinyanyanhu: maybe. Yes03:09
hongbinflwang: hey. NP03:09
eliqiaohongbin: I just enable zun-compute service03:09
eliqiao#link https://review.openstack.org/32885403:10
yanyanhuhi, eliqiao, has post/pre_test hook been set up03:10
hongbineliqiao: ack03:10
eliqiaoyanyanhu: not yet right now.03:10
yanyanhuif so, it's easy to add real test cases03:10
yanyanhuI see03:10
hongbinThen, I guess here is the plan03:11
eliqiaoyanyanhu: I will try to see if I can enable post hook. but if some one is interested with it, I am gald to help03:11
yanyanhueliqiao, thanks :)03:11
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hongbinPlan 1. starting using [zun] for email, wiki, launchpad03:12
Qimingwhat is zun-compute?03:12
Qimingwhat is zun-conductor?03:12
hongbinYes, let's discuss the architecure03:12
yanyanhuit's easy, just need to add them to gate template. And the first version of test_hooks can be empty script03:12
adiskyyes i have few doubts on architecture..03:13
hongbinOK. Before we talk about the archtecture, anything else for the renaming periodi03:13
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haiwei_the design looks like Nova's design?03:13
mkraihongbin: We should add Zunclient also03:14
mkrai#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317699/03:14
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hongbinmkrai: I think we should land that patch right now (not wait for the renam)03:14
mkraiOk I will do that03:14
hongbinThen we have a client to work with03:14
hongbinmkrai: thx03:14
hongbinAny other comment for the renaming?03:14
hongbinOK. Let's discuss the architecture03:15
hongbin#topic Zun architecture03:15
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hongbinFrom my understanding, the architecture is a copy of Nova. correct?03:16
mkraiYes it seems so03:16
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sudiptoI could see some patches that copied the exact code from nova, including the objects03:16
mkraiBut we need to look at our requirement also before copying03:16
hongbinNova architecture is not necessary fit for us03:17
mkraiBecause as told many times containers lifecycle is different from VMs03:17
sudiptoyeah - was the same thought in my head too.03:17
mkraiSo do we need compute service?03:18
yanyanhuversioned object is  very helpful I think :) we should support it if possible. Although some effort to set it up03:18
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eliqiaoyanyanhu: Sure, we need object03:18
eliqiaomkrai: yeah, we need to discuss about compute serive03:18
sudiptoyanyanhu, agreed, before we write the objects though, we need to discuss the data model and use cases in detail IMO03:19
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yanyanhusudipto, yes, agree03:19
haiwei_what about making some specs and then starting to code03:19
sudiptoIt seems that the API layer in Nova is kinda similar to what we would want to do...03:19
eliqiaoThe thing is how we connect with HOST from zun-conductor?03:19
Wenzhispeaking of objects and data model, I have a patch intend to add container object https://review.openstack.org/#/c/328726/03:19
yanyanhuabout whether we need sun-compute, I think that depends on what responsibility we want conductor to take03:19
yanyanhueliqiao, bingo, I have the same question03:20
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hongbinI think we need a sort-of local agent03:20
hongbinIn nova, it is nova-compute, in aws, it is called ecs-agent or somthing03:21
yanyanhuin nova, conductor is a bridge between compute and API?03:21
eliqiaoshould we though REST (for exmaple we can use docker-py to connect a remote docker daemon), but I think we may need to control NIC/Storage later ..03:21
sudiptoyanyanhu, it's between the compute and the DB.03:21
yanyanhuah, right03:21
hongbinBasically, nova-conductor is a proxy to DB03:21
haiwei_conductor seems a bridge between compute and DB, yanyanhu?03:21
eliqiaoconductor is for upgrade and access DB and also it's task flow manager.03:21
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mkraieliqiao: We would need docker on the host to connect03:22
yanyanhuyes, basically a bridge between compute agent and core service03:22
yanyanhuwhich talks with DB directly03:22
QimingWenzhi, thanks for the patch (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/328726/) but it is really tooooo big to review, it is combining a lot of things into a single patch03:22
Wenzhiactually nova-conductor also handle some build/rebuild tasks03:22
Wenzhiand also call nova-scheduler to filter out dest compute host03:23
eliqiaomkrai: but if we have zun-compute, the connection between conductor and host is, conductor talk to compute and compute talk to docker daemon locally.03:23
sudiptoI do believe there's a need for an agent, that is probably going to have stevedoor plugins loaded - based on the driver (backend) used.03:23
WenzhiQiming: sorry, I will split it into several small patches03:23
haiwei_It seems we are coding first, and then discussing the design03:23
sudiptohaiwei_, +103:23
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yanyanhuhaiwei_,  :)03:24
mkraieliqiao: Ack. Later we might need to talk to openstack services also to manage things. So we would need compute service03:24
Qimingwhy don't we have the conductor talk to the local daemon directly?03:24
eliqiaosudipto: agree, I think zun-compute(agent) could be a option compoment (driver specific)03:24
haiwei_it is right?03:24
yanyanhumkrai, agree03:24
hongbinQiming: good question. What is the pros and cons?03:24
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mkraiQiming: Later we might need to talk to openstack services also to manage things. So we would need compute service03:24
eliqiaoQiming: do you mean we run conductor on each host?03:25
Qimingwe can have a single conductor (conceptually single ...) to talk to container daemons on all nodes03:25
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hongbinQiming: what is the advantage?03:26
Qiminghave that single conductor to speak different dialects03:26
sudiptoQiming, then you would complicate the conductor IMo03:26
eliqiaoper my understanding, if we want to use kuryr, we need to install kuryr and neutron agent on each host, right?03:27
Qimingone of the key value of zun, as I see it, is it can provide a LCD among all container backends03:27
eliqiaoQiming: could you tell what LCD stand for?03:27
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sudiptoQiming, what would be the LCD in this case?03:27
hongbinLowest common dinominator03:27
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eliqiaoThanks hongbin , good to know that.03:28
hongbinQiming: but both Nova and AWS have local agents. If Zun don't have it, I guess we will face limitation to perform local operations03:28
Qimingfrom a deployer/user's perspective, each deployed components need to be managed03:29
hongbinQiming: e.g. setting up the network, storage, image, file system etc.03:29
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mkraihongbin: Agree03:29
Wenzhihongbin: agree03:29
eliqiaohongbin: yes, I have same question on network, storaget etc, @ Qiming how to manage them locally?03:30
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QimingI'm leaning more towards a remote management03:30
Qimingthe ansible way of managing things, instead of the chef/puppet way03:30
hongbinLike a lean agent, and a heavy conductor?03:31
Qimingin an ideal setup, we don't need agents at all, if possible03:31
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hongbinYes, maybe03:32
Qimingjust some ideas for team to consider03:32
Qimingmaybe eventually, we will need agents installed, configured and maintained on each underlying nodes03:32
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Qimingwhen we are there, we will know it03:33
eliqiaohmm... I got a question, if we leverage kuryr, we will install kuryr and nerutron agent on host... in this case, it's not good.03:33
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sudiptoQiming, it's a good thought but i guess there are some unavoidable cases. For example - how do you configure the bridges?03:33
yanyanhueliqiao, installation is easy, but configure and setup...03:34
Qimingeliqiao, you mean having zun to install kuryr ?03:34
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hongbinIf we follows Nova pattern, operators install Kuryr and Kuryr agents03:34
Qimingmy knowledge on kuryr is very very limited, but can we offload those set up to kuryr?03:35
hongbinAnd Kuryr agents needs to be installed at each host03:35
Qimingthen we talk to Kuryr?03:35
hongbinFor networking part, I guess that will work03:35
eliqiaoQiming: I am not sure, just thinking about your view of "agent", too many agent been installed on host.03:36
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Qimingyes, that is what I am really worrying about03:36
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eliqiaohongbin: Kuryr is only a connect bridge of neutron and docker, seems zun shouldn't talk with it at all.03:36
sudiptoFrom the API per say - the request sent is more like "I want the container to be deployed" - that's one REST call...and then the local agent is responsible for orchestrating that whole request by making several local calls to the local daemon/ovs/xyz and fullfills that request. So i see a benefit there.03:37
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* sudipto states the benefits of a local agent03:37
Qimingem, the benefit sounds real03:38
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* eliqiao has some concerns with sudipto, but yes agent bring maintain effort.03:39
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hongbinQiming: do you change your point of view about local agent, or this needs to be discussed further?03:40
* eliqiao s/some/same03:40
QimingI'll keep the viewpoint to myself03:40
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Qimingdo not want to block the team from progressing03:41
sudiptoQiming, it's a very good thought IMHO, and we could think about this as we go maybe.03:41
hongbinQiming: If the team want to implement a local agent, what you will suggest about the implementation?03:41
Qimingmy suggestion is that we can focus on things we MUST do in this cycle03:41
Qimingsome basic data models, a generic, minimal API design/implementation, with test case covered03:42
eliqiaoQiming: I am +1 on the basic stuff.03:43
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hongbinI would suggest to implement the local agent as light as possible, if possibly, containerize the local agent03:44
hongbinFor this, reference AWS agent implementation03:44
haiwei_it's better tolist out the basic tasks somewhere03:44
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hongbin#link https://github.com/aws/amazon-ecs-agent03:44
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Qiming+1 haiwei_03:45
hongbinOK, want an etherpad for that?03:45
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sudiptohongbin, an etherpad would be nice I feel.03:46
mkraiYes would be great03:46
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-basic-tasks03:46
hongbinWe have 15 minutes left03:46
hongbin10 minutes to work on it maybe03:47
hongbin5 minutes open discussion03:47
Qimingany updates from API work now?03:47
mkraiI have posted a patch for Container API controller03:47
mkraiBut that needs update03:47
Qimingthx, mkrai03:47
mkrai#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/328444/03:48
Qiminghoho, 1718 lines added03:49
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Qimingneed two days to go through them, :)03:49
yuanyingIt seems almost code are copied from old magnum03:50
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mkraiYes yuanying03:50
mkraiNeed to remove wsme code03:50
hongbinYes, it looks most folks are from Magnum03:50
mkraihongbin: :)03:51
yuanyingI don't like start/stop.../action_controller.. personally03:51
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yanyanhuso we learned something about magnum as well :P03:51
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sudiptoOne thing is - just making zun as a service in openstack that manages containers - need further detailing w.r.t USPs IMHO. As in are we targeting just the OpenStack existing environments or are we also telling - that this provides something unique?03:52
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mkraiyuanying: Please comment on the patch. I will update accordingly03:52
mkraiThanks for your input yuanying03:52
hongbinsudipto: good point03:52
sudiptoAt this point in time, we are in rush to replicate another openstack service i feel.03:52
* Qiming shares the same feeling03:53
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hongbinYes, I am thinking we need a spec to clarify the overall design and roadmap03:53
mkrai+1 hongbin03:53
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Wenzhiagree hongbin03:53
mkraiI am interested in working on the spec. But would need support from all03:53
hongbinI can work on that, but need a few more meetings to discuss with you to drive consensus on the overall design first03:54
hongbinsure, we could put the spec in an etherpad03:54
hongbinTHen, everyone can contribute03:54
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mkraiIt will be huge03:54
hongbin#topic Open Discussion03:54
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)"03:54
hongbin#action hongbin create an etherpad as a draft of Zun design spec03:55
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sudiptoI would urge everyone to put your thoughts on that etherpad - and come up with ideas that could be unique to zun (not about how similar it is to nova/docker or xyz)03:56
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hongbinOK. Anything else to discuss?03:57
hongbinIf not, let's wrap up a bit earlier03:57
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hongbinAll, thanks for joining ht emeeting03:58
mkraiThanks everyone03:58
hongbinHope to see you all in the next meeting03:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"03:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 14 03:58:28 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)03:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-06-14-03.00.html03:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-06-14-03.00.txt03:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-06-14-03.00.log.html03:58
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yamamoto_anyone here for networking-midonet meeting?07:35
yamamoto_#startmeeting networking_midonet07:36
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 14 07:36:21 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yamamoto_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.07:36
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.07:36
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:36
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking_midonet'07:36
yamamoto_#topic agenda07:36
*** openstack changes topic to "agenda (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:36
yamamoto_#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NetworkingMidoNet#Agenda_.282016-06-14.2907:36
yamamoto_#topic announcements07:37
*** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:37
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yamamoto_~1 month until n-207:38
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yamamoto_but we are still working on mitaka...07:38
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yamamoto_#link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html07:38
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yamamoto_#topic bugs07:39
*** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:39
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yamamoto_#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/networking-midonet/07:39
yamamoto_there are a few gate breaking bugs07:39
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yamamoto_i'll continue bug deputy07:41
yamamoto_honestly i'm getting skeptic about bug deputy role, as we don't actually rotate it.07:41
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* yamamoto_ editing the bug deputy chart on wiki07:41
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yamamoto_#topic Open Discussion07:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)"07:42
* yamamoto_ waiting a few minutes before closing the meeting07:43
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Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackQiming: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.  Use #endmeeting first.13:00
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Qimingem, networking_midonet is not ended ...13:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:01
elynnis it work?13:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 14 13:01:32 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-06-14-07.36.html13:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-06-14-07.36.txt13:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-06-14-07.36.log.html13:01
Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 14 13:02:03 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:02
Qimingseems working13:02
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Qimingpls feel free to add items to the agenda if you have topics13:02
Qiming#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda#Weekly_Senlin_.28Clustering.29_meeting13:03
Qiminghi, everyone13:03
Qiminglet's start with the etherpad13:03
Qiming#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-newton-workitems13:03
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Qimingtempest testing side, we have made some really good progress on api tests, especially those negative ones13:04
yanyanhuyes, almost done I think. just need negative test case for cluster actions13:05
elynnHow many negative tests left?13:05
yanyanhuabout 10 I think13:05
yanyanhuone for each action13:05
Qimingthen we may need to migrate functional tests to use tempest?13:06
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yanyanhuQiming, yes, I think so13:06
Qimingor, do we want to do the migration at all?13:06
yanyanhumaybe we can put them into scenario dir?13:06
yanyanhuQiming, if possible, we should :)13:07
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Qimingthen we do it13:07
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yanyanhuthen we don't need to maintain functional gate job13:07
elynnOr we can create a functional dir?13:07
yanyanhuall these tests will be done using tempest13:07
yanyanhualthough we may need tempest scenario test job?13:07
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yanyanhufunctional is also ok I think13:08
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Qimingfunctional tests will still use fake drivers13:09
Qiminghow about scenario tests?13:09
yanyanhuthat is the same as API test13:09
yanyanhuactually in my mind, our current functional test is more like 'scenario' test :)13:09
yanyanhujust the backend driver is fake13:10
elynnscenario will use real driver, right?13:10
yanyanhuum, that can be integration :)13:10
yanyanhuintegration test13:10
yanyanhuseems there is no strict definition for these test types...13:11
elynnoh, I thought they are the same...13:11
yanyanhuelynn, that's confusing :)13:11
Qimingapi test focuses on the api surface13:11
Qimingfunctional tests is more about exercising the senlin-engine13:11
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Qimingthen I'm doubting if we should treat scenario test and integration test as the same thing13:12
yanyanhuI'm ok with both functional and scenario. We just need to differentiate those two cases using real driver or not.13:13
elynnSpeaking of that, seems defcore tends to use the tests in tempest tree.13:14
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elynnDo we need to put some tests there?13:14
Qimingif needed, we can copy the code there13:14
yanyanhuI think we don't need to test complicated engine logic in integration test13:14
Qimingdefcore only cares about api surface, right?13:14
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yanyanhujust need to ensure senlin works well with other backend services I guess13:15
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elynnQiming: yes13:15
Qimingyanyanhu, agree, but we need to test some tricky, corner cases as well13:15
yanyanhuyes, like lb policy13:15
elynnlike lb policy and health management13:15
Qimingintegration test is more of exercises for profiles and policies13:15
Qimingso we can skip scenario tests?13:16
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Qiminghave functional focusing on engine testing, integration tests focusing on profiles/policies13:16
yanyanhumove existing functional tests to tempest dir13:17
Qimingthe former still use the fake driver, the latter use real drivers13:17
elynnAnyway, these tests are only tools to help us to make sure our services works as expected. Naming is not import :)13:17
elynnWe can add any tests we want to tests.13:17
yanyanhuelynn, +113:17
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Qimingelynn, yep, but we have to speak the same language13:17
Qimingwe agree we won't talk about scenario tests13:18
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Qimingokay, let's keep things simple13:19
Qimingstress testing13:19
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Qimingnoticed your patch about rally testing, yanyan13:19
Qimingquite some nits found when reviewing it13:19
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Qimingpls check13:20
yanyanhuyes, have read your comments13:20
yanyanhuwill fix it tomorrow13:20
Qimingalso, we have got some comments from rally team about that plugin testing13:20
yanyanhuQiming, yes, definitely13:20
Qimingpls help keep the balls rolling13:21
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yanyanhuI noticed roman just left some comments on my patch for adding cluster plugin13:21
yanyanhuwill reply and update patch13:21
Qimingwe may want to check if cmcc guys want to help on rally test cases13:21
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yanyanhufinally, all those plugins will stay in rally repo and we can remove our local copy13:21
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yanyanhuQiming, yes, just didn't get msg from eldon zhao13:22
Qimingyou mean the rally_jobs subdir?13:22
yanyanhuwill contact with him to see whether there is anything we can help them13:22
yanyanhuQiming, yes, we just need to keep job description files13:22
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yanyanhuno need to keep local plugins if they have been merged to rally13:22
Qimingmoving on13:23
Qiminglast week we talked about the health threshold problem13:23
Qiminghave you guys got some new ideas? thoughts?13:23
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yanyanhuhmm, still not very sure about it13:24
yanyanhuin my mind, there could be a property like percentage to describe the threshold of health status13:25
yanyanhuwhich is based on desired_capacity13:25
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Qimingyes, I know what you mean13:26
yanyanhuwhich means if the current size of cluster is less than %* of user desired size, the cluster will be marked as unhealthy13:26
Qimingthen we have four numbers,   min_size, health_threshold, desired_capacity, max_size13:26
yanyanhuyes, that's my original idea13:26
Qiminghow would you map the different node count to cluster status?13:27
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yanyanhunode count? you mean count of node in health status?13:28
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Qimingeach time the cluster is resized, a user is supposed to adjust the health_threshold?13:28
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yanyanhuno, I think user should expect a stable/fix health_threshold no matter how large the cluster is13:28
Qimingsuppose we have the 4 numbers as these:   1, 3, 5, 713:29
Qimingthe cluster now has 2 nodes active13:29
Qimingwhat the cluster status would be?13:29
yanyanhuthat means they always want at least 80% of nodes in their cluster is health. e.g.13:29
yanyanhueven when they have a very large cluster13:29
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Qimingthen the health_threshold can only be a percentage?13:29
yanyanhu3 is health threshold?13:30
yanyanhu60% in this case13:30
Qimingthe cluster has 2 nodes active, what should the cluster's status be?13:30
yanyanhubut this is just my thought. I think we really need to find user's consideration about this issue13:30
yanyanhuif the threshold is 60%, desired_capacity is 5, then I think the status should be warning/unhealthy13:31
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yanyanhuif there are 3 healthy nodes, we can mark cluster as healthy13:31
Qimingthe cluster's desired_capacity is 513:32
Qiming2 nodes is less than that13:32
Qimingit is no good13:32
yanyanhuso in my idea, desired_capacity actually become the 'IDEAL' size13:32
Qimingthen what is 'desired_capacity' used for?13:32
yanyanhuactually it's not 'desired_capacity'13:32
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yanyanhuyou can't always get what you want, haha13:33
Qiminghealth_threshold becomes the new 'desired'?13:33
yanyanhuthat why I have that idea :)13:33
yanyanhuQiming, seems so13:33
yanyanhuso I said I'm not so sure about it after all these thinking13:33
Qimingthen we can completely abandon 'desired_capacity'13:33
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yanyanhuthat depends on how user understand those conceptions, like desired_capacity13:34
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yanyanhuQiming, maybe, or we use it as real 'desired' capacity13:34
QimingI was having problems explaining these four numbers to a user13:34
Qimingwhen you do recovery13:35
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Qimingyou recover to the health_threshold (3) nodes or desired_capacity (5) nodes?13:35
Qimingif the cluster has 4 nodes active now13:35
Qimingdo you need to recover it?13:35
Qimingit is not ideal (one less than the desired)13:35
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yanyanhufor recovery, I think we should try to recover to desired_capacity13:36
Qimingrecover to health_theshold would already make the cluster healthy13:36
yanyanhuhmm, I think your right, we should only maintain three conceptions here13:36
QimingI've been struggling on this for a long time13:36
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Qimingwas trying to get some more brains on this13:37
yanyanhuthen we need to explain the difference between 'ideal' and 'what your want'13:37
yanyanhuthat's too confusing13:38
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Qimingyes, that was my thought a long time ago13:38
Qimingwhat you want == ideal13:38
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Qimingbecause the reality always changes13:38
yanyanhuso if we only have desired_capacity, that is the threshold of healthy and also 'what user wants'13:38
yanyanhuwe always try to make the cluster size match it13:38
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Qimingthat is the *desired* capacity13:39
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Qimingit could be an over simplification13:39
yanyanhudesired means what user wants13:39
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yanyanhuand we try to meet their requirement when creating/recovering cluster13:40
Qimingyep, what else could it be ...13:40
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yanyanhuif we fail to achieve that goal, the cluster is unhealthy since it doesn't meet user's expectation13:40
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Qimingyes, the engine will always try it best to "kind of converge" the cluster to that size13:40
yanyanhuok, I'm much clearer now13:41
yanyanhuabout this13:41
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Qimingokay, if we all agree on this "over" simplification13:42
Qimingwe can start closing the loop13:42
elynnsounds good!13:42
Qimingwe can hear node (VM) failure events now13:42
Qimingthe basic health management will do some recover with and without guidance from a policy13:43
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Qimingkind of a convergence to the desired_capacity13:43
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yanyanhuyes, so policy just make it "automatic" and "smarter"13:44
Qimingin future, when needed, we can add an option: the engine can optionally converge the cluster size to a number you want, not necessarily the 'desired_capacity'13:44
Qimingthat is sort of equivalent to health_threshold13:44
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Qimingmaybe a policy option or something13:44
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yanyanhuyes, define that property in policy makes more sense IMHO13:45
Qimingmoving on13:45
Qimingno update on documentation, though I did fixed some links on senlin wiki13:45
Qimingreinstalled ceilometer along with aodh, will try workout some tutorial docs on manual/auto scaling13:46
Qiminghaiwei_, progress on container support?13:46
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haiwei_no progress this week13:46
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haiwei_waiting for your review on the initial patch13:47
Qimingokay, let us know if you need someone for a discussion13:47
QimingI haven't reviewed that? ...13:47
Qimingmy fault13:47
haiwei_its ok13:48
Qimingno progress on event/notification yet13:48
Qimingthough I have a half-baked patch on generalizing the backend13:48
Qimingoops, we only have 12 mins left13:48
Qiming#topic cluster-collect call13:49
*** openstack changes topic to "cluster-collect call (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:49
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Qiminglet me walk you quickly thru the cluster-collect call I'm adding13:49
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Qimingthe basic requirement is that when you created a cluster of nova servers, for example13:49
Qimingyou want to get a list of the IP addresses of all nodes13:50
Qimingthis is a command being added, which necessitates a new engine version and a new api version13:50
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Qimingyou will be able to do things like this:13:50
Qimingsenlin cluster-collect -p details.addresses.private[0] <cluster_name>13:50
haiwei_this function is useful in container cluster, I think13:51
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Qimingthe "details.addresses.private[0]" is modeled as a json path13:51
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QimingI have some local patches to be commited to senlin/sdk/senlinclient13:51
Qimingstill trying to iron out some issues13:52
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Qimingbut basically, it works pretty good13:52
Qimingin the simple case you can do: senlin cluster-collect -p name <cluster_name>13:52
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Qimingthat will give you a list of names on command line13:53
Qimingyou can also do: senlin cluster-collect -p details.addresses.private[0] -L <cluster_name>13:53
Qimingthe "-L" switch will print the output into a two-columned table13:53
Qimingthe first column is the node id, the second is the attribute value13:54
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yanyanhunice. Have you decided which type of data collect operation will return? list or dict13:54
Qimingengine patch and rpc patches are ready for review, I'm working on the api layer13:54
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Qimingif you review the code13:54
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Qimingyou will see it is returning something like this: {'cluster_attributes': [{'id': 'NODE1', 'value': 'V1'}, {'id': 'NODE2', 'value': 'V2'}]}13:55
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yanyanhuI see13:56
Qimingthat's a quick update on cluster-collect call13:56
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Qiming#topic open discussions13:56
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:56
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Qimingopen for questions/comments/suggestions13:56
yanyanhunothing from my side13:57
Qimingbtw, I have got a company internal call for presentation for Barcelona summit13:57
Qimingtime flies13:57
yanyanhuthe end of oct.13:58
yanyanhuwill think about it13:58
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elynnlao si ji, dai dai wo.13:58
yanyanhuI can read it13:59
yanyanhumaybe we can have a brainstorming for it13:59
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Qimingtime's up13:59
yanyanhuin coffee time13:59
Qimingthanks for joining guys13:59
Qiminghave a good night/day13:59
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"14:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 14 14:00:00 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-14-13.02.html14:00
elynngood night14:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-14-13.02.txt14:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-14-13.02.log.html14:00
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reduxioHello. Can anyone point me to where i need to go to register as a third party driver developer?14:32
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reduxioHello. I'm having trouble logging in to openstack wiki. getting server error (http 500). can anyone help with that?14:43
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dasmreduxio: as far as i remember (but may be wrong) creating new accounts on wiki was disabled, because of spammers.14:45
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reduxioOh? So i do i add my company as a third party running CI? the documentation link pointed me to the wiki (at least that is what i understood..)14:47
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clarkbreduxio: if you wander over to #openstack-infra you can get a wiki admin to temporarily allow user creation then create your user14:47
dasmclarkb: yeah. i just noticed, where on openstack-meeting not *-infra.14:48
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dasmreduxio: join #openstack-infra and talk to admins.14:48
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reduxiodasm: thanks!14:48
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dasmreduxio: np. it's clarkb who suggested this :)14:49
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saggi#startmeeting smaug15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 14 15:00:01 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is saggi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'smaug'15:00
saggiHi everybody15:00
saggiIs everyone aptly excited about tonight?15:00
xiangxinyong456we are all here.15:00
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saggiis yinwei coming?15:01
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zhonghuaxiangxinyong:  :)15:01
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saggi#topic testing15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "testing (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:02
saggiHow close are we for all the tests to run on the CI?15:02
yuvalthis patch: https://review.openstack.org/32892715:02
yuvalshould fix fullstack as part of the gate15:02
yuvalwe have 2 patches by zhangshuai to test protect and restore15:03
chenyingneed fix swift client config error15:03
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yuvalchenying: yes, see my comment in my patch15:03
chenyingyuval  Does your  patch  work?15:04
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yuvalchenying: yes. we can either merge it, or port the configuration settings to your patch15:04
chenyingI think we only merge your patch.15:05
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yuvalgreat, then please review it: https://review.openstack.org/32892715:05
chenyingI  abondan  my  patch15:05
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chenyingok  I will reivew it later.15:06
saggianything else wrt testing?15:06
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yuvalnope imo15:07
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saggi#topic documentation15:07
*** openstack changes topic to "documentation (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:07
saggiI still haven't put the generated api doc up. Slipped my mind.15:07
chenyinga patch about doc  have  been merged15:07
chenyingabout  user  example doc15:08
yuvalwe are still missing a guide about writing plugins (protectable, protection, bank)15:08
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saggiWe can only really do it once the API is solid and supported. We don't want to do that until version 1.15:09
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saggiAnything else?15:10
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zhonghuayuval:where the guide doc should be located?15:10
saggiThere should be a way to generate the wiki from the source tree. But IIRC gampel said you need to be a very special kind of project for that to be approved for you.15:11
yuvalwe should drop it in doc/source and link to it from index.rst15:11
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saggiBut I might be misremembering15:11
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saggi#topic TC meeting prep15:11
*** openstack changes topic to "TC meeting prep (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:11
saggiWho is going to attend (apart from me)?15:11
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zhonghuai hope i will15:12
chenzengI will15:12
chenyingI will15:12
zhonghuait is so late for me15:12
xiangxinyong456we all join the tc meeting15:12
saggiThere no real need. From what I hear we can't really influence things either way.15:13
saggiSo don't worry if it's to late for you.15:13
zhonghuasaggi: exciting moment15:13
xiangxinyong456we want to see the great moment15:13
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saggiOK, anyone spoke with people from the TC and has any idea where the winds are blowing?15:14
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yuvalflavio popped into our channel, asked where glance_store could fit15:15
zhonghuai want to know too15:15
chenzengblow the good direct15:15
zhonghuasaggi:any update about that?15:16
xiangxinyong456yuval: you mean where did glance data store?15:16
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saggiglance_store seems to be an API for image repositories.15:18
chenyingneed some time  to research the  project.15:19
chenzengyuval:do you mean we can use the glance-store to protect image15:19
zhonghuais there anyone know that project well?15:19
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yuvalchenzeng: afaik, it is used mostly by glance, but fit for other uses as well15:20
saggithe documentation are very sparse15:20
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saggi#topic Open Discussion15:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: smaug)"15:21
saggiAnything else?15:21
xiangxinyong456do we need to answer the favio?15:22
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saggiyuval: ?15:22
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yuvalI already answered him, that glance_store might fit as a bank plugin, and could be used by protection plugins to store data15:22
xiangxinyong456yuval: good job:)15:23
chenyingI will  research the porject  tomorrow15:23
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chenzengthe operation engine can not work untill merge my several patches.please review them15:24
saggiI'm sorry I'm cutting the meeting short but I have a lot on my plate.15:25
saggiSo unless anyone has something to say I'll end the meeting15:25
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xiangxinyong456good luck, guys.15:25
xiangxinyong456see you later.15:25
yuvalI suggest you guys at China should get some sleep too :)15:26
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xiangxinyong456we are excited now.15:26
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:26
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 14 15:26:28 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:26
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-06-14-15.00.html15:26
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-06-14-15.00.txt15:26
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-06-14-15.00.log.html15:26
yuvalbye, see you all later15:26
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sridhar_ram#startmeeting tacker16:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 14 16:00:33 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sridhar_ram. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tacker)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tacker'16:00
sridhar_ram#topic Roll Call16:00
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sridhar_ramhowdy all ! let's give a min before we start...16:01
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tung_doanHi all16:02
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sridhar_rami know bobh and tbh are out today16:02
sridhar_ramtung_doan: hi there!16:02
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: are you here ?16:02
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: hi16:02
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sridhar_ramokay, lets start...16:03
sridhar_ram#topic Agenda16:03
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sridhar_ram#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Tacker#Meeting_June_14.2C_201616:03
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sridhar_ramanything else to discuss ? we might have some time for open topics16:03
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sridhar_ram#topic Annoucements16:04
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sridhar_ramWe have a bug fix release 0.3.1 out for Mitaka ...16:04
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sridhar_ramtacker 0.3.1 (mitaka) bug fix release16:04
sridhar_ram#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-announce/2016-June/001213.html16:04
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sridhar_ramtacker-horizon 0.3.1 (mitaka) bug fix release16:04
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sridhar_rampython-tackerclient 0.3.1 (mitaka) bug fix release16:05
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sridhar_ramThanks for all those cherrypicks...16:05
sridhar_ramAlso, I'd like to thank the reviewers as we have picked up our review response / merge rate!16:06
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sridhar_ramHeads up, i'm out whole next week for OPNFV Summit @ Berlin..16:06
sridhar_ramI'll cancel next week's mtg unless someone else wants to host it16:06
sridhar_rammoving on..16:07
sridhar_ram#topic Monitoring & Scaling specs16:07
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: tung_doan: do you16:08
* sridhar_ram oops16:08
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: tung_doan: do you've any specific subtopics / design issues in these specs to discuss now ?16:08
tung_doansridhar_ram: also, my spec is updated: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/306562/12/specs/newton/alarm-based-monitoring-driver.rst16:08
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: I have got some comments from sripriya and answered them ... and today i tried to define the schema for the new types16:09
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yeah, so would like to get feedback on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/329528/1/tacker/vm/tosca/lib/tacker_defs.yaml16:09
tung_doansridhar_ram: yes, some things related to alarm-url in monitoring driver16:09
sridhar_ramunfortunately we are missing both bobh & tbh who can advise on tosca lib16:10
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: trying to introduce a scalegroup after refering a tosca simple profile16:10
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tung_doansridhar_ram: please have a look at L11416:10
* sridhar_ram is looking16:10
sripriyaKanagarajM: sridhar_ram: i would like to know if it is beneficial to show scaling stats all the way to the user or are they supposed to get that from heat?16:10
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: hang on, lets take one at a time :)16:11
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yeah, sure, will wait on scaling :)16:11
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sridhar_ramfor TOSCA changes for both monitoring and scaling, tacker_defs.yaml is the right approach as this is not really coming from TOSCA NFV profile16:12
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sridhar_rambasing it off TOSCA Simple Profile is the right approach16:12
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sridhar_ramfyi... TOSCA Simple Profile is here http://docs.oasis-open.org/tosca/TOSCA-Simple-Profile-YAML/v1.0/TOSCA-Simple-Profile-YAML-v1.0.html16:13
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: do this make sense? we shd insert Monitoring node type in tacker_defs.yaml16:13
sripriyaKanagarajM: why don't we push this new type to tosca parser project?16:13
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: oh, sure we could.. that is the preferred approach16:14
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tung_doansridhar_ram: sure.16:14
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: ok. thanks i will update the spec with the new def in place,16:15
sridhar_ramif we are blocked due to some reason in tosca-parser project, we can temporarily host it in tacker_defs.yaml16:15
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: you had a question on alarm-url in monitoring driver ?16:15
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: sure. I will try to catch sahdev16:16
tung_doansridhar_ram: right... let take a lookpleae :)16:16
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: link please ?16:16
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tung_doansridhar_ram: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/306562/12/specs/newton/alarm-based-monitoring-driver.rst16:16
tung_doanLine 11416:16
KanagarajMsripriya: I think, we could retrieve from heat when ever user make a request, or do you want to store in the deviceattributes table about the current state of scaling?16:16
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: i have doubts exactly in the same spot as well..16:17
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sripriyaKanagarajM: probably we could take this up once we finish monitoring discussion?16:17
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KanagarajMsripriya: Ah, sure. thats right :)16:18
tung_doansridhar_ram: does it make sense, sridhar?16:18
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: tung_doan: referring to monitoring policy id and scaling id in the API URI doesn't make sense16:18
sridhar_ramthese id, as far as I understand, refers to the policy name in the TOSCA template ?16:19
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: its an name of the policies16:19
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yeah right16:19
sridhar_ramso the URL will look like ...16:19
tung_doansridhar_ram: but srihar.. monitoirng policy can some actions16:19
KanagarajMRESTful API does allows to have action names it in16:20
tung_doansridhar_ram: sounds good16:20
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yes, its should be fine IMO16:20
KanagarajMinstead of action-id, it could be action-name16:21
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sridhar_ramokay, this means we need to decompose tosca template node names into addressable attributes16:21
KanagarajMso that it would confuse by terms16:21
sripriyaKanagarajM: again that is unique only tot he VNF16:21
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sripriyaKanagarajM: i could have another VNF with same policy name and the url will only defer on the uuid16:21
KanagarajMsripriya: yes,16:22
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tung_doanKanagarajM: i already mentioned "action_name" in my spec16:22
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KanagarajMtung_doan: sure.16:22
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: KanagarajM: we need a pick one name!16:23
tung_doansridhar_ram: that's why I come today :)16:23
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: cool, worth it :)16:23
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: another question..16:23
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tung_doanKanagarajM: could I mentioned to metadata in my spec16:24
tung_doanKanagarajM: in case if auto-scaling16:24
sridhar_ramtung_doan: are we going to run a oslo_service/wsgi endpoint to take these webhook callback ?16:24
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yes, i believe so16:25
sridhar_ramtung_doan: does it going a separate threads to process these callbacks ?16:25
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sripriyasridhar_ram: +116:25
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sridhar_ramokay, then we need this part to be scalable (in the sense, to set num_thread/ workers)16:25
tung_doansridhar_ram: right16:25
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: similar concept of heat :)16:26
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: sure, now how secure this can be ... ?16:26
sridhar_ramwhat if some malicious code can call this webhook ? is there a randon webhook identifier for each invocation ?16:26
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: its right question, heat earlier gives by means of EC2 signing and i think now keystone deprecating it16:27
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: so, we need to with tacker RBAC and in case of signaling we should see how to make ceilometer to invoke tacker with required credentails in place16:27
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: i thought other projects generate a specific only time identifier (per webhook)16:28
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: time identifier ?16:28
sridhar_ram.. and as long as the original call is https we would have some level of protection16:28
sridhar_ramoops, i meant one-time identifier16:29
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: no, its getting used always in case of EC2 signed url in auto-scaling16:29
sridhar_ramwe can take this offline, but we need some solution to secure the calls coming through this channel (webhook)16:30
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yes,16:30
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: i see16:30
sridhar_ramtung_doan: just to wrap up monitoring....16:30
KanagarajMtung_doan: if possible, could you please check with ceilometer16:30
tung_doansridhar_ram: Kanagaraj: OK16:30
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: can you please describe your design for the oslo_service/wsgi endpoint, multi-thread handler for the webhook callback and how you are planning to have this scale ?16:31
sridhar_ramtung_doan: .. in meant, in your next patchset16:31
tung_doansridhar_ram: Ok.. I will think about them...16:32
sridhar_ramIMO, with that and a some kind of handle on the callback security, we should wrap this spec and land it16:32
sridhar_ramlet's move onto scaling...16:32
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: sorry, you got interrupted.. please continue16:33
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: for scaling, i belive we could go with  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/329528/1/tacker/vm/tosca/lib/tacker_defs.yaml16:33
tung_doansridhar_ram: anw, please review my spec.. thanks16:33
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sridhar_ramtung_doan: will do, thanks again for join at this late hour16:34
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: and i will place it in tacker and contiune the dev16:34
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: in parallel, i would check with sahdev on how to take it tosca-parser + heat-translator16:35
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: is that fine?16:35
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: fine, we still need to follow up https://review.openstack.org/#/c/302636/ ?16:36
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yes, sure16:36
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: for the call back handler ..16:37
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: .. you need to coordinate w/ tung_doan, correct?16:38
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: for call back, i have asked tung_doan to check with ceilometer16:38
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KanagarajMand follow up on it.16:38
sridhar_ramokay.. thanks16:38
sridhar_ramone last..16:38
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sridhar_ramhave you figured out the dependency between your two work items ? who is going to go first ?16:39
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sridhar_ramagain, you can decide offline.. but it will be good to have a plan..16:39
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: it should go in parallel, and for the auto-scaling from the alarm-monitor can go last16:40
sridhar_ram.. so that you don't trip each other :)16:40
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: 1. scaling and/or monitoring 2. auto-scaling from monitor driver16:40
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: sounds good :)16:40
sridhar_ramtung_doan: KanagarajM: thanks!16:40
tung_doansridhar_ram: np :)16:40
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: so i don't see any dependency for manual scaling16:41
sridhar_ramokay.. i've a clarification on that, but will take it offline..16:41
sripriyaKanagarajM: sridhar_ram: should we capture scalign stats in tacker?16:41
KanagarajMsripriya: you had some questions, and i answered, kindly let me know your feed back16:41
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: what you mean by scaling stats ?16:41
sripriyaKanagarajM: sure, will respond to that16:41
sripriyasridhar_ram: no. of vdus currently scaled and related metrics?16:42
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: sripriya has mentioned that its better toc apture the current state like number of VDUS16:42
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sripriyasridhar_ram: with scaling coming in, we may start off with 2 instances per vdu and then scale out to 3 based on policies16:43
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sridhar_ramthat will be usefull16:43
sripriyasridhar_ram: the only way to see this is going through heat16:43
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sridhar_ramapart from the event-logging on every scale event16:43
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sripriyasridhar_ram: yes...16:44
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: we got to probe heat to get that stat ? again, depends on the effort .. we can always do this in a follow on16:44
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yeah, thats better plan.16:45
sripriyaKanagarajM: sounds good16:45
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: i'd suggest we split it into a follow on RFE if that is going to be long poll16:45
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yeah sure.16:45
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: it would be great if you could help to merge the spec before your OPNFV summit trip :)16:46
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: i could use that week to impl16:46
sridhar_ramyes, we should shoot for that.. :)16:46
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KanagarajMsripriya: i would seek your help too :)16:47
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yeah sure :)16:47
sripriyaKanagarajM: sure16:47
sridhar_ramtung_doan: KanagarajM: lets sync up to catchup in the #tacker channel and/or ML to keep this moving.. so that we don't wait for this weekly meeting16:47
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sridhar_rammoving to the next topic...16:47
tung_doansridhar_ram: agree16:47
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: sure.16:47
sridhar_ram#topic Midcycle Meetup - Virtual vs F2F16:48
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sridhar_rambased on the doodle pool .. http://doodle.com/poll/2p62zzgevg6h5xkn16:48
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sridhar_ram.. we unanimously prefer a virtual midcycle meetup16:49
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sridhar_rami propose we do a two-day Virtual Meetup with two different timeslots..16:49
sridhar_ram.. one Asia friendly and another w/ US / Europe16:50
sridhar_ramthoughts ?16:50
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sridhar_ramanyways, i will create another doodle poll to finalize the timeslots16:51
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: nice16:51
sridhar_rami was start an etherpad as well.. and we should start collecting ideas for topics to discuss16:52
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sridhar_ramHere it is https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tacker-newton-midcycle16:52
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sridhar_ramzeih offered an EU location.. i wish we can go there for tacker midcycle one day :)16:53
sridhar_rammoving on...16:53
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sridhar_ram#topic Bugs, RFE and Open Discussion16:53
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sridhar_ramI know we have many bugs and RFEs in flight...16:54
sridhar_ramin fact, lots of small but significant things are coming in as RFEs..16:54
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sridhar_rami'd like to thankg gongysh for all those oslo refactoring!16:54
sridhar_ramanyone have a specific bug or RFE to discuss ?16:55
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: i am trying to set the retry count to 3 in heat driver16:55
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: as 60 is big in number https://review.openstack.org/32952716:55
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: stack retry16:55
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: sripriya  yes16:56
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KanagarajMsridhar_ram: yes it was 60 earlier16:57
sridhar_ramKanagarajM: well, what to say.. we don't give up trying that easily ;-)16:57
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: :)16:57
sridhar_ramalright.. please keep the bug fixes, RFEs coming..16:57
sripriyaKanagarajM: 300 was the time out keeping vms in mind which take nearly 2 -3 minutes to bring up an instance16:58
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: in heat also we try for 3 as default for resource16:58
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: sounds good & make sense!16:58
sripriyaKanagarajM: tacker was false setting VNF to ERROR state even though the actual instance did come up after like 2 minutes on VMs with starved specs16:58
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sridhar_ramKanagarajM: yeah, thats bad16:59
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sridhar_ramwe are out of time..16:59
sridhar_ramthanks everyone who joined..16:59
sridhar_ramagain, no meeting next week..16:59
sridhar_ramwill meet the week after next...16:59
sridhar_ramthanks everyone!17:00
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s3wonghave fun in Berlin!17:00
KanagarajMsridhar_ram: will come to tacker17:00
sridhar_rams3wong: thanks!17:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:00
KanagarajMsripriya: will come to tacker17:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 14 17:00:18 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-06-14-16.00.html17:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-06-14-16.00.txt17:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-06-14-16.00.log.html17:00
cathy_#startmeeting network_common_flow_classifier17:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 14 17:00:28 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is cathy_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)"17:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'network_common_flow_classifier'17:00
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cathy_Hi everyone17:00
LouisFhi cathy_17:00
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asselin_is this meeting time double-booked?17:01
cathy_I have posted the agenda in the wiki page https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Neutron/CommonFlowClassifier#Contributors17:01
mohankumar_Hi cathy_17:01
cathy_asselin_: not as far as I know17:01
mmedvedethis was usually third-party meeting spot17:01
ja3asselin: looking that way17:01
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jlibosvaasselin_: is third-party weekly mtg?17:02
jlibosvaor bi-weekly?17:02
mmedvedejlibosva: it is bi-weekly17:02
asselin_mabye it's that biweekly bug?17:02
s3wongthis is approved at openstack-infra, which the software would ensure no double booking17:02
asselin_for ical17:02
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mohankumar_Neutron Common Classifier meeting booked  for odd weeks17:03
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mmedvedeok, for third-party folks, lets convene in #openstack-third-party-ci channel17:03
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cathy_mmedvede: sorry about this. Thanks. We will check the time slot again17:04
mmedvedeand figure it out after, as we do not have a big agenda17:04
ihrachyslooking at http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Neutron_Service_Chaining_meeting17:04
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ihrachysI see that it's Thursdays for SFC17:04
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cathy_ihrachys: this is not for service chaining specific17:04
ihrachysoh sorry17:04
cathy_ihrachys: it is for the Neutron Common Flow Classifier17:05
jlibosvaihrachys: it;s Neutron Common Classifier meeting17:05
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cathy_ihrachys: np17:05
cathy_OK, let's start17:05
ihrachysas per .ical file, it's next week17:05
mohankumar_ihrachys , yes  , classifier meeting  on odd weeks .. there is some confusion17:06
cathy_ihrachys: yes, some confusion here. how is it considered odd week?17:06
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cathy_This is the 3rd week of June, isn't it?17:06
asselin_i remember and even/odd week bug for ical where jan 2016 was 2 odd weeks in a row17:06
ihrachyscathy_: how do you count? from the start of the year?17:07
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ihrachyscathy_: it's annual, not monthly17:07
mohankumar_This is Week 24  in this year17:07
cathy_So count  from the start of the year?17:07
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ihrachysor just rely on .ical to calculate it for you17:08
cathy_ihrachys: OK, my bad. Sorry folks. I will correct this starting from next meeting17:08
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cathy_ihrachys: what do you mean by .ical?17:08
ihrachyscathy_: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Neutron_Common_Classifier_meeting17:09
davidshacathy_: file for outlook that saves an appoinment17:09
ihrachyssee the "ICS file for this specific meeting"17:09
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ihrachysdownload it and add to your calendar app17:09
ihrachysit's .ics actually, sorry17:09
cathy_ihrachys: got it. Thanks!17:09
mohankumar_cathy_ ,  you can download @  http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Neutron_Common_Classifier_meeting17:10
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cathy_mohankumar_: yes, thanks17:10
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cathy_now let's start with the first topic17:10
cathy_#topic Bug Status: developed as a RFE over neutron-core?17:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Bug Status: developed as a RFE over neutron-core? (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)"17:10
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cathy_there are two bugs associated with this feature17:11
cathy_#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/158329917:11
openstackLaunchpad bug 1476527 in neutron "duplicate for #1583299 [RFE] Add common classifier resource" [Wishlist,In progress]17:11
cathy_#link  https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/147652717:11
openstackLaunchpad bug 1476527 in neutron "[RFE] Add common classifier resource" [Wishlist,In progress]17:11
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cathy_one is duped to the other17:11
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cathy_In our last meeting, the consensus is to developed this feature as a RFE over neutron-core.17:12
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cathy_Does anyone know whether the neutron team had re-take a look at this bug which has been there for quite some time? https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/147652717:13
openstackLaunchpad bug 1476527 in neutron "[RFE] Add common classifier resource" [Wishlist,In progress]17:13
cathy_ihrachys: Do you know?17:13
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ihrachyshm, it's approved so what is missing?17:14
ihrachysnote that as per armax, "but eventually this would end up being its own neutron stadium repo/LP project, and *not* the Neutron/Neutron-specs repos."17:14
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ihrachysif you want drivers to get back to it for some reason, we probably need to tag it as rfe again17:15
ihrachysbut I would better talk to armax17:15
ihrachysso, is the latest resolution not in line with your vision?17:16
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cathy_ihrachys: per our discussion in last meeting, we would like it to be tagged as rfe-approved, not as a new stadium project17:17
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ihrachyscathy_: then I guess we need to run the RFE bug thru drivers team again17:17
cathy_similar to the way L2 agent feature is handled17:17
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ihrachysI agree it's core to the project goals17:18
cathy_ihrachys: Anything we need to do for "run the RFE bug thru drivers team again"?17:18
ihrachysI think we should just replace rfe-approved tag with rfe17:18
ihrachyslemme handle it17:19
cathy_ihrachys: OK, thanks!17:19
igordcardwhat about neutron-classifier?17:19
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cathy_This is the neutron-classifier feature17:19
cathy_igordcard: This is the neutron-classifier feature17:19
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cathy_#action ihrachys will run the RFE bug thru drivers team again17:20
igordcardneutron-classifier can still be core even if it is in its own repo17:20
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igordcardthis common classifier seems like a new effort that doesn't use neutron-classifier at all17:20
ihrachysnot that there is much to use there, right?17:21
cathy_igordcard: we will only have one classifier for the Neutron and the team will work together for that goal17:21
cathy_ihrachys: I think so17:21
cathy_ihrachys: but we will try to reuse existing implementation as much as possible17:21
sean-k-mooneycathy_: there is a datamodle17:21
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cathy_sean-k-mooney: yes.17:22
igordcardcathy_: but the model proposed in the CC wiki looks completely different from openstack/neutron-classifier17:22
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sean-k-mooneythe implementation in the neutron-classifyer is type based so it is different form what exists in the security group api and networking-sfc17:22
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cathy_I think we need to first agree on the API, data model design, then we can evaluate existing cdoe17:23
sean-k-mooneycathy_: yes i think that is a better first step17:23
LouisFcathy_: agree17:23
s3wongcathy_: true17:24
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mohankumar_cathy_ : +117:24
sean-k-mooneyso in terms of design i see two different proposals for the api17:24
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sean-k-mooneyform the security group api and networking sfc the l1-7 classifcaion exist withing a singel api resource17:25
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cathy_#topic API design discussion17:26
*** openstack changes topic to "API design discussion (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)"17:26
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sean-k-mooneyin the neutron-classifier the classification is a compostion17:26
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cathy_sean-k-mooney: good point.17:27
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LouisFsean-k-mooney: can you elaborate17:27
igordcardsean-k-mooney: cathy_ : this second approach is also described in more detail at https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1476527/comments/2617:27
openstackLaunchpad bug 1476527 in neutron "[RFE] Add common classifier resource" [Wishlist,In progress]17:27
cathy_how about someone evaluate the pros and cons of the two ways17:28
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cathy_anyone would like to take this evaluation work?17:28
sean-k-mooneycathy_: i think it would be better to dicuss in a spec rather then one person evaluating17:29
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ihrachys+ for a spec17:29
igordcardI'll post a spec17:29
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cathy_igordcard: thanks!17:29
igordcardsorry I need to leave the meeting now - will catchup afterwards with the logs17:30
cathy_#action igordcard will post a spec on the pros and cons of the two classification ways17:30
igordcardcya, thanks17:30
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sean-k-mooneywell should the spec not capture the implentation approch rather then the pros and cons17:31
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sean-k-mooneyie discribe the datamodels and api for both solutions17:31
cathy_sean-k-mooney: yes, that should be included otherwise people can not evaluate whether the pros and cons make sense17:32
sean-k-mooneyas the spec is reviewed we can then converge on one implenttion that meets the contraitns17:32
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cathy_sean-k-mooney: I would think before we decide on one approach, no need to dive into very detail17:32
cathy_after the team reaches consensus on one way, we can have another spec detailing the API, data model etc.17:33
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cathy_I think we first need to agree on the high level which way to go (with enough detail for the team to make decision)17:33
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sean-k-mooneysure though at least a preliminay defintion of the api and data model will be needed but i will not neet to be complete17:34
cathy_sean-k-mooney: yes, agree.17:35
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sean-k-mooneysomething akin to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318317/5/doc/source/devref/openvswitch_agent.rst i think would be a good guide17:35
cathy_I think we have completed the second topic on the agenda:-)17:35
LouisFsean-k-mooney: yes that is a good example for the spec17:36
cathy_sean-k-mooney: This is "implementation detail", which should be the spec. But for evaluation, we probably do not need this detail.17:37
ihrachysyou can always start with a less detailed draft and then fill it in with details17:37
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LouisFthere should be sufficient to be able to identify the pros/cons of each approach17:38
sean-k-mooneycathy_: yes that was the implentation but i was using it to illistrate how both options are compared rather then present one as the solution and the other as an alternitive17:39
LouisFsufficient detail17:39
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cathy_sean-k-mooney: OK, Sure17:39
cathy_sean-k-mooney: I think it is important not to present one as the solution and the other as alternative17:40
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cathy_I will work with igordcard on this comparison spec17:40
cathy_anyone else would like to contribute to this spec?17:40
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cathy_ihrachys: yes17:41
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cathy_We are done with the topics on the agenda. Any other topic you would like to discuss?17:41
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davidshacathy_: I've made some PoC code for the Flow manager if people would like to give their opinions17:42
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davidsha#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323963/17:42
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cathy_davidsha: that is related to L2 agent extension, not quite the flow classifier, right?17:43
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jlibosvadavidsha: is it implementing the draft that ajo proposed?17:43
LouisFcathy_: I can help with spec also17:44
cathy_LouisF: great, thanks!17:44
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cathy_#action Louis and Cathy will work with igordcard on the spec17:44
davidshacathy_, jlibosva : kinda, it's a bit out of date now but I'm working on it.17:44
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ihrachysdavidsha: not related to the meeting, but looks less scary than I thought :)17:45
davidshaihrachys: You haven't seen the prioritization yet @.@17:45
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cathy_davidsha: yes not related to the meeting since this meeting is specific to FC:-)17:45
cathy_davidsha: but I will take a look after you update it. Could you add me as reviewer?17:46
ihrachysok folks, I need to run. ciao.17:46
cathy_ihrachys: ok, thanks for joining17:46
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davidshacathy_: kk, I'll do that now.17:46
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cathy_davidsha: thanks.17:46
cathy_I will end this meeting if no other topic on FC.17:47
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cathy_thanks everyone17:47
mohankumar__ bye17:47
cathy_bye for now17:47
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cathy_we will start the next meeting in 3 weeks17:47
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:48
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 14 17:48:04 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:48
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2016/network_common_flow_classifier.2016-06-14-17.00.html17:48
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2016/network_common_flow_classifier.2016-06-14-17.00.txt17:48
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2016/network_common_flow_classifier.2016-06-14-17.00.log.html17:48
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* ayoung early to get good seat17:59
stevemarmeeting reminder ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, MaxPC, morgan, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tjcocozz, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek17:59
knikollao/ hi!17:59
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ayoungrodrigods, hey, meant to tell you...that test you showed me yesterday?  It is suppsed to work that way17:59
samueldmqhi o/17:59
ayoungFederation should be able to match an existing user17:59
rodrigodsayoung, hmm17:59
stevemarohhh packed house today18:00
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notmorganoh we have a stevemar back. welcome back stevemar :)18:00
stevemarglad to be back notmorgan18:00
ayoungrodrigods, say you are using Kerberos via federation, and want to map to an existing LDAP database for groups18:00
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stevemarit's a nice break from diapers18:00
ayoungetc etc18:00
stevemar#startmeeting keystone18:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 14 18:00:34 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:00
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:00
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stevemarlet's jump right into it18:01
stevemarrmizuno_: you here?18:01
notmorganlink the agenda?18:01
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stevemarnotmorgan: thanks, is my rust showing :)18:01
stevemar#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:01
ayoung   \m/   d(-v-)b  \m/18:01
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rmizuno_stevemar: yes18:02
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stevemarrmizuno_: doesn't seem to be here, so i'll skip to the next topic, if he... oh there you are18:02
stevemar#topic Add resource name to the notification event18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Add resource name to the notification event (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:02
stevemarrmizuno_: the floor is yours18:02
gyeejust do it!18:02
stevemargyee: but names are mutable and domain scoped o_O18:02
ayoungwe only do IDs now, and that is hard to match, I take it?18:02
stevemarayoung: yep18:03
rmizuno_#link: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/320299/18:03
ayoungaudit events are going to get big18:03
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rmizuno_this patch was intended to add a name to the audit notification when the project deleted.18:03
gyeestevemar, notification and audits is a snapshot in time18:03
gyeenothing more18:03
dolphmayoung: ++18:03
rmizuno_but, it seems odd to do it just for deleting project.18:03
* lbragstad we had a similar request here - https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/155279518:03
openstackLaunchpad bug 1552795 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "enhance notification for user events with user name" [Wishlist,In progress] - Assigned to Lance Bragstad (lbragstad)18:03
ayoungrmizuno_, is this a case of the cure being worse than the disease?18:03
rmizuno_so, I want to gain approval about adding the resource name to all audit notification.18:03
dstanek#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1552795 similar bug18:03
lbragstadand there were some good points made in that report18:03
stevemarrmizuno_: so, i understand the need for doing this for projects18:04
gyeewe have to understand what notifications and events are for18:04
gyeeto facilitate monitoring, auditing, and forensics18:04
stevemarrmizuno_: but i'd like the code to be done in a way that it's extensible, so users, roles, etc... can also add names to the event18:04
dolphmID's certainly fulfill that requirement18:04
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notmorgandolphm: ++ if not being super friendly, but are guaranteed immutable and unique within a deployment18:04
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notmorganso are *safe* for such actions18:05
stevemarrmizuno_: also, we need to include domain name18:05
dstanekgyee: you're missing your implied requirement to tie things back to your source system18:05
dolphmthe use case in the bug report, and the one we've discussed before, is primarily around the ** user experience ** of receiving an audit notification18:05
jamielennoxbut particularly for a delete action you can't resolve an ID into a name later18:05
dolphmnot the functionality of audit notifications18:05
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stevemardolphm: right, this is totally a UX thing18:05
gyeedstanek, its a snapshot of the resource at that time, whatever it was/is18:05
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ayoungWhat if we had a utility to populate it ex-post-facto instead?18:05
stevemarif you're using the name as the canonical source, tis your own fault :P18:05
dstanekgyee: not saying you're wrong, just that you need to clarify the requirements18:06
ayounglkeep the audit events small, but have a "expand audit log ids" CLI18:06
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bknudsonunless you're keeping essentially a duplicate of the keystone database there's no way you could get the name on a delete event.18:06
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dolphmayoung: then we have to keep deleted entities around to make that work18:06
lbragstadbknudson which is something that can be done today18:06
stevemarbknudson: fetch the resource from the backend before deleting? i think we do that now today?18:06
notmorgandolphm: we may want to do that for many reasons [change the course from today]18:06
dolphmbknudson: which is not a bad or strange idea at all if you care about your data that deeply18:06
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ayoungdolphm, seems like that would be a shrotcoming of the current system, wouldn'tit18:06
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ayoungso...better to have the names in there at least for deletes18:07
gyeeI would hate to have my monitoring system to do a resource looking in order to display meaningful/reading stuff18:07
lbragstadbknudson i highlighted that in a summary of this discussion from the summit - http://lbragstad.com/improving-auditing-in-keystone/18:07
ayoungand for anything that is deleted, we would have no way of mapping...18:07
shaleheven the ID is useless post delete right? Sure it was unique but what was it.....18:07
gyeenot to mention having to configure a credential in my monitoring in order to lookup stuff18:07
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stevemarshaleh: that was mfisch's point too18:07
notmorgani'm more inclined to make delete not be a "remove the row from the DB"18:07
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* ayoung too18:07
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ayoungsoft delets18:07
dolphmgyee: the current audit records *are* meaningful - don't confuse this for a lack of functionality18:08
notmorganayoung: lets not call it that please...18:08
dstaneka side effect is dealing with uniqueness in code18:08
raildonotmorgan: ++ for soft deletes18:08
notmorganayoung: just change what the delete means.18:08
bknudsonif I've kept a copy of the data (ID -> name) from before the delete I could use the ID to look up the name18:08
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raildo(or whatever other name for this)18:08
gyeedolphm, just display the resource ID in the screen?18:08
dolphmverbose cadf vs soft deletes vs shadow tables: http://lbragstad.com/improving-auditing-in-keystone/18:08
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dolphmgyee: ?18:08
notmorganplease no shadow tables18:08
notmorgani'll take verbose cadf easily before that18:09
dolphmnotmorgan: that'd be an operator solution, not upstream18:09
rderosenotmorgan: ++18:09
dolphmnotmorgan: operators can do that today18:09
ayoungnotmorgan, it was the term he used on the blog post18:09
notmorgandolphm: true.. but nova did that in their tree18:09
notmorgani don't want to see that replicated ;)18:09
stevemardolphm: from an implementation point of view, adding the names is the easiest of those 318:09
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dolphmnotmorgan: or maybe it's something we can document upstream as our recommended solution if you want those behaviors18:09
dstaneknotmorgan: what did they do?18:09
notmorgandstanek: they have all sorts of internal shadow tables for book keeping on deletes18:09
bknudsonwho would have a problem with adding name to the audit payload?18:10
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notmorgandstanek: accross services etc.18:10
stevemarbknudson: presumably only keystone devs :P18:10
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dolphmnotmorgan: didn't know that, that sounds awful. are they using mongo?18:10
gyeedolphm, when monitor system receiving an event which containing only resource ID, it has to make a call to Keystone to lookup the resource (if it still there) in order to display something that is *readable*18:10
lbragstadwell what if an operator doesn't want a particular attribute in the payload18:10
samueldmqverbose notifications would be something configured in the config file right?18:10
notmorganeasiest solution: verbose cadf, best solution don't delete the rows, worst of both worlds shadow tables18:10
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lbragstadand we put it in there18:10
samueldmqsomehting like configuring the log level18:10
samueldmqnotificaiton levle ?18:10
notmorgansamueldmq: no. lets not do that18:10
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dstanekdolphm: doubt it, because they could use just a single 'audit' collection18:10
ayoungyou know what...I'm not really engaged in this.  Any of the options would suffice by me18:10
notmorgansamueldmq: please lets not add knobs to what is in notifications.18:10
shalehnotmorgan: ++18:10
dolphmgyee: again, the use case your describing is user experience, not system auditing18:10
* stevemar thinks we should make cadf the default notification format18:11
shalehI like soft deletes. It is kind of the norm really.18:11
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shaleheasier to ensure uniqueness too.18:11
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stevemarit's been ten minutes, doesn't seem like there's consensus here18:11
dstanekif we just always put ids and names in the audit records would that satisfy 90% of the needs for more data?18:11
gyeeuser experience matters18:11
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stevemardstanek: i think so18:11
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dolphmnotmorgan: ++18:11
samueldmqwhat is a notification ? is it supposed to only contain operation/entity_id ?18:11
shalehdstanek: I think so18:11
notmorganin fact i recommend adding name to cadf AND not deleteing rows18:12
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notmorganfor different reasons18:12
shalehnotmorgan: agreed on not deleting.18:12
notmorganbut it would be the most complete solution18:12
stevemarnotmorgan: ++18:12
notmorganso lets do that18:12
stevemar*why not both*18:12
notmorganname first, not delete rows second18:12
stevemarrmizuno_: consider it approved18:12
samueldmqso adding names for ALL entities right?18:12
bknudsonwe'll just run lbragstad's performance tests with the change and see what the effect is.18:13
samueldmqnot just projects18:13
dolphmwhy not full objects? because that's the next request18:13
gyeefor the second part, we need a more comprehensive resource lifecycle management framework18:13
stevemarrmizuno_: please try to make the code so other resources can use it18:13
samueldmqdolphm: ++ and their memory refs18:13
notmorgandolphm: because we wont delete the objects18:13
notmorgandolphm: to avoid that18:13
lbragstadstevemar i would be in favor of having a single notification format... having configurable notification stuff is confusing18:13
stevemardolphm: we won't include the description too :P18:13
dolphmbknudson: i don't think there is any messaging support in the benchmark18:13
notmorgandolphm: provide real lifecycle management on the resorces18:13
rmizuno_stevemar: ok18:13
rmizuno_thanks! all!18:13
dstanekif we stop deleting rows we'll have to start enforcing rules in python that the db currently handles18:13
stevemarlbragstad: i agree, as it stands now the 'audit' format is not default18:13
shalehlbragstad: if we can come up with a minimal, sufficient format I am +1 to that18:14
samueldmqif we're going to not delete rows, why not start with that18:14
samueldmqinstead of adding names -> stop dleeting rows ?18:14
stevemarsamueldmq: adding names is much easier to do18:14
samueldmqlet's do it right from the start :)18:14
raildoit is not wrong adding names, it just simpler for now18:14
dolphmdstanek: ++ :(18:15
samueldmqstevemar: and after when we don't delete roles anymore, we won't be able to remove names from the events anymore18:15
notmorgandstanek: not really, the db can still handle it, it is just changing how we handle unique constraints18:15
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notmorgandstanek: i can show you the migrations for it. it isn't too terrible18:15
dstaneknotmorgan: how would you do that?18:15
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notmorgandstanek: unique(deleted(notNull, Bool), delete_time(notNull, default=0)18:15
stevemarwe still have a lot on the agenda, can we discuss this in -keystone or in the patch?18:16
notmorgandstanek: add in name etc constraints18:16
samueldmqstevemar: ++18:16
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notmorganit basically means you unique on "not-deleted, and delete time 0, and <other thing>"18:16
notmorganand ids still remain unique18:16
notmorgandstanek: i'll go over it more with you post meeting18:16
notmorganit's not that hard to do.18:16
stevemar#topic Drop support for Driver Versioning18:16
*** openstack changes topic to "Drop support for Driver Versioning (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:16
stevemarrderose: ^18:17
notmorganstevemar: just rubber stamp this.18:17
rderoseSo the spec proposes dropping support for driver versioning.18:17
rderoseThere is a maintenance/development burden, however small you think it is.18:17
rderoseI don't like our approach and question whether operators are actually benefiting from it.18:17
stevemari saw the ML post, but no one replied to it :(18:17
notmorganstevemar: no one seems to care [though i dislike not having a clear contract, i'm willing to go with the general community consensus]18:17
rderoseAnd to me it's not unreasonable to say, if you want to upgrade Openstack, you'll need to upgrade and test your custom drivers.  That's it.18:17
dolphmstevemar: i'd rather have some decisions than try to rush through a rediculously long agenda18:17
notmorganand i'm the reason for the original proposal.18:17
dstaneknotmorgan: we can have a clear contract without supporting old versions of it18:17
gyeeoh I love the terms "technical debt"18:18
notmorgandstanek: either not really a contract [or unchanging?] or need versioning18:18
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lbragstadi imagine we would have to provide better documentation when interfaces change?18:18
ayoungwe did "delete means disable" for tokens for a long time18:18
bknudsonwhat's wrong the approach?18:18
stevemardolphm: fair enough, we can circle back to it. i'll drop my item18:18
henrynash_so my question is why do we think the answer is different today than we did 3 releases ago?18:18
bknudsonmaybe we can fix the approach18:18
notmorganhenrynash_: because fewer deployments run custom drivers now. iirc18:18
dstanekhenrynash_: i didn't actually like it then either18:19
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notmorgani haven't heard of folks doing it in the last year18:19
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henrynash_dstanek: I think we all felt it was a necessary evil18:19
notmorganit was much more prevalent when i proposed this18:19
ayounglets kill driver versioning and if people are doing customer drivers break them willy and nilly.18:19
bknudsonwe'll likely wind up running a custom driver here.18:19
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amakarovrderose, is this support is dropped immediately after spec merge or we still have to support versions and adapters in between for 2 releases?18:19
stevemarbknudson: would keeping the versioned drivers make things easier for you?18:19
dolphmhenrynash_: the maintenance cost of the current approach is astronomical compared to the supposed benefit18:20
samueldmqwe should listen to deployers and take our decision to keep or not supporting it18:20
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stevemaramakarov: it would be 2 releases i think18:20
dolphmsamueldmq: deployers have not expressed any support on the mailing list either way18:20
notmorgansamueldmq: i hear no deployers asking for it at this point18:20
notmorganpreviously there were a number18:20
bknudsonstevemar: I don't think the versioned drivers actually would help us much.18:20
notmorgandreamhost, hp, etc18:20
ayoungthe only way to find out who is using it is to remove it.  For any value of *it*18:20
samueldmqdolphm: notmorgan: so I fully support dropping support for custom drivers18:20
bknudsonwe'll have to change our driver eventually so will likely just do it when we upgrade.18:20
samueldmqmaintanance costs are high18:20
notmorgansamueldmq: no.18:20
bknudsonand write our own translation code.18:20
rderosebknudson: for complicated drivers, "faking out" methods is difficult18:20
notmorgansamueldmq: verioned drivers.18:21
amakarovstevemar, so delegation driver adapters I'm working should still introduce new assignement and trust driver versions instead of just changing them?18:21
notmorgansamueldmq: someone can still write a custom driver.18:21
stevemarnotmorgan: so why did hp & dreamhost change?18:21
notmorganstevemar: hp doesn't run a public cloud now.18:21
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ayoungdreamhost changed because I broken them18:21
notmorganstevemar: dreamhost moved to pure upstream.18:21
samueldmqnotmorgan: ok, so we keep supporting withouth the headache of versioning them18:21
notmorganstevemar: afaik18:21
ayoungwhen we split ID into id and assignment.18:21
gyeestevemar, I can't get us to contribute the mongodb driver, so I won't cry if we drop it18:21
samueldmqnotmorgan: yes that's what I MEANT18:21
ayoungpoort thingy18:21
notmorgansamueldmq: basically18:21
jamielennoxthe thing i like about the custom drivers is the backwards support from version to version. If we think we can do upgrade notes etc on drviers and deprecation periods etc then they're not needed - but historically we didn't18:21
samueldmqnotmorgan: ++ I support that18:21
ayoungbetter to push for code going in upstream18:22
notmorganwe could also just 2-cycle support the backend driver contract - no versions18:22
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shalehjamielennox: good points18:22
samueldmqlet's create better docs about driver contract changes; and to be honet they're pretty good right now since we do release notes18:22
notmorganbut as the original champion of this - i'm fine with it being dropped. i hear very few people [zero] asking for this now.18:22
bknudsonwe don't really have a driver contract anyways.18:22
dolphmsamueldmq: we can't avoid driver contract changes...18:22
notmorganwe aren't ironic, we aren't cinder with 3rd party drivers18:23
amakarovayoung, the problem I see, is we're saying: "You can write your own drivers with this interface which is subject to change anytime we please"18:23
bknudsoneven the backends we supply now work differently in many cases18:23
stevemari'm OK with not creating any new drivers and removing the current versioned drivers when they have been deprecated18:23
samueldmqdolphm: exactly, so let's just document the changes better (with release notes). and drop support for versioning18:23
notmorganamakarov: well not once release happens for a given cycle18:23
rderoseamakarov: basically notify in newton and remove in O18:23
notmorganamakarov: but if you're chasing master, do it at your own risk18:23
jamielennoxsamueldmq: we lack the notes saying to upgrade you need to implement these functions and drop these others, with the versioning it's easy to see what you need to implement rather than scattered deprecation notices18:23
dolphmsamueldmq: oh, sure ++18:23
gyeesamueldmq, the code is the document :-)18:23
notmorganwe wont change [barring security issues etc] the backend interfaces on a given release.18:24
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raildogyee: the better way, always :D18:24
notmorgangyee: don't even joke about that :P18:24
dolphmstable releases are stable, and that's never changed18:24
samueldmqjamielennox: that info is available in the release notes, at least the ones I've seen from henrynash_ iirc18:24
bknudsonat this point the code is the document18:24
notmorgandolphm: ++18:24
bknudsonsince we don't document the interface.18:24
stevemari think we're all in agreement (except maybe henrynash_) ?18:24
jamielennoxbut i've advocated before we should create a keystone/lib dir and treat it like a real library and put in there anything that is supposed to be consumed from others18:24
samueldmqknikolla: we can do that with release notes pretty easily18:24
notmorgangenral consensus - drop it?18:24
samueldmqvote ?18:24
notmorganand document better?18:24
dstaneknotmorgan: drop & doc!18:25
henrynash_stevemar: I’m just leary of removing something we thought was important with zero input from deployers18:25
dolphmdstanek: ++18:25
shalehdo what jamielennox is proposing18:25
gyeeI don't always agree with dstanek, but not this time18:25
stevemarsamueldmq: i think henrynash_ is the only one on the fence18:25
samueldmqstevemar: notmorgan: should we vote? shoud be quick18:25
ayoungamakarov, I've never said that.  I always saw driver as internal code18:25
raildoand who will do this? rderose? :D18:25
dolphmhenrynash_: we asked for input, we heard crickets18:25
notmorgandolphm: ++18:25
rderoseraildo: dstanek: volunteered18:25
henrynash_I’ll certainly support the consenus18:26
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ayounglets hold off on removing versioned drivers until after the next summit, and get it before the operators18:26
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samueldmqhenrynash_: let's senf an email notifying the decision18:26
amakarovayoung, and we expose 'driver' parameter to config for people to override it18:26
raildorderose: dstanek awesome :)18:26
ayoungits probably just busy work, but we have committed to it18:26
samueldmqthey will say something if they disagree18:26
notmorganand everyone who has complained to me previously have stopped doing custom drivers as i know18:26
samueldmqat least this time :)18:26
dstanekthe question is whether we just drop all support of honor the existing contracts for a release18:26
henrynash_dolphm: which meant they weren;t listeneing, didn’t get the question or don’t care…but we don;t know which18:26
ayoungamakarov, I just saw that as a way to switch between existing ones in tree18:26
shalehdstanek: honor for at least a release18:26
dolphm#info gyee doesn't always agree with dstanek, but not this time18:26
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shalehas ayoung says, we do not really know what is out there18:26
amakarovayoung, anyway, whoever customizes driver get a maintainance problem, and it's his problem :)18:27
stevemar#startvote drop version driver support? Yes, No18:27
openstackBegin voting on: drop version driver support? Valid vote options are Yes, No.18:27
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.18:27
notmorganannounce the versions go away in O18:27
samueldmq#vote Yest18:27
openstacksamueldmq: Yest is not a valid option. Valid options are Yes, No.18:27
samueldmq#vote Yes18:27
bknudson#vote Yes18:27
notmorgan#vote idontcare18:27
openstacknotmorgan: idontcare is not a valid option. Valid options are Yes, No.18:27
amakarov#vote yes18:27
stevemar#vote yes18:27
rderose#vote yes18:27
dolphm#vote Yes18:27
shaleh#vote later18:27
openstackshaleh: later is not a valid option. Valid options are Yes, No.18:27
henrynash_#vote no18:27
ayoungI want to do so eventually18:27
lbragstad#vote yes18:27
jamielennox#vote yes18:27
ayoungis a yes vot for dropping immediately?18:27
raildo#vote yes18:27
rodrigods#vote yes18:27
dstanek#vote more_yes_than_yes18:27
openstackdstanek: more_yes_than_yes is not a valid option. Valid options are Yes, No.18:27
samueldmqdstanek: heh18:27
dstanek#vote yes18:27
notmorgandolphm: VITEINFO!18:27
stevemarayoung: yes means we just don't create new ones, and let the exisitng ones deprecate18:27
browne#vote yes18:27
ayoung#vote yes18:27
knikolla#vote yes18:28
nisha_#vote yes18:28
jamielennoxbut i want to say there's really no rush to this18:28
openstackYes (15): rodrigods, nisha_, lbragstad, ayoung, rderose, bknudson, browne, dstanek, samueldmq, jamielennox, knikolla, amakarov, dolphm, raildo, stevemar18:28
openstackNo (1): henrynash_18:28
openstackVoted on "drop version driver support?" Results are18:28
openstackYes (15): rodrigods, nisha_, lbragstad, ayoung, rderose, bknudson, browne, dstanek, samueldmq, jamielennox, knikolla, amakarov, dolphm, raildo, stevemar18:28
openstackNo (1): henrynash_18:28
henrynash_(someone’s gotta stand out from the crowd)18:28
shalehhenrynash_: ++18:28
bknudsonhe's a wild duck.18:28
dstanekif people end up not liking this then we can always start creating new versions18:28
stevemarrderose: interpret what you may from the results :)18:28
samueldmqnice, I think we can discuss about how we do it in -keystone18:28
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stevemardstanek: lol18:28
henrynash_ok, done…next topic!18:28
rderosestevemar: ++ what, you mean henry hates me now18:28
shalehI just feel like wearing Monty's hat and saying operators might be bitten if we act too quickly18:28
stevemarhenrynash_: actually... i'm going to circle back to the previous one18:29
rderosehenry: beer is on me at mid18:29
stevemar#topic Add resource name to the notification event18:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Add resource name to the notification event (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:29
notmorganshaleh: you should invoke mordred when putting on his hat18:29
gyeerderose, do pay attention to who's walking behind you on the next summit18:29
henrynash_redose: as the person who ended writing nealy all teh bl**dy wrappers, no I’m happy (in a perverse way!)18:29
stevemarlet's get a concrete action item out of this18:29
dolphmrderose: follow up on your mailing list post with the outcome of this meeting18:29
stevemardolphm: good call18:29
rderosedolphm: will do18:29
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stevemarso back to the whole names in audit events thing18:30
notmorganshaleh: (though i think he's in meetings all day)18:30
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shalehnotmorgan: yeah...18:30
samueldmqdolphm: ++18:30
rderosegyee: ++18:30
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stevemari'm ok with adding the resource name and domain name18:30
rderosehenrynash: ++18:30
shalehstevemar: a) add names now b) move towards soft deletes18:30
notmorganshaleh: ++18:30
samueldmqshaleh: ++18:30
stevemardolphm, you seem concerned18:30
samueldmqmaybe we should vote again ? :-)18:30
notmorganshaleh: but can we never call them "soft deletes" again ;)18:31
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notmorganshaleh: just call them "deletes" ;)18:31
dolphmstevemar: i'm in favor of A, with the caveat that names are not unique across domains, and we're not including domain references18:31
samueldmqI think we should go to b) from now, that shouldn't be a hurry to add the name18:31
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dolphmstevemar: so i'm inclined to suggest we should just dump the full object into the cadf payload18:31
gyeesamueldmq, b) is quite a bit of work18:31
lbragstaddolphm so keeping the notification payload reasonably sized, right?18:31
dolphmlbragstad: not necessarily lol18:31
samueldmqgyee: can't be done in this release or next ?18:31
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jamielennoxi'm ok with adding names, with all the regular caveats that names can change and you should be storing ids18:32
notmorgangyee: it really isn't that much work. - also it buys us the "restore a deleted resource" option w/o needing magic "inject data into the db" commands18:32
samueldmqgyee: in worst case it will get in next cycle (1 release after the name  can be added)18:32
notmorganfor free.18:32
shalehjamielennox: if we log BOTH it is better than just ids18:32
gyeesamueldmq, not this release I don't think, but miracle do happen18:32
jamielennoxnotmorgan: it's always the API that bugs me about that, how do you request a deleted project?18:32
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raildowe will still with name + id right? so this will be a unique combination across domains18:32
stevemardolphm: by "not including domain references" you mean the entire domain ref, we still need the domain name18:32
notmorganjamielennox: same way as with nova ?deleted=true18:32
jamielennoxshaleh: yes, logging both is fine18:32
shalehnotmorgan: ++18:32
bknudsonthe project was deleted, not the domain, so we only need the domain ID18:33
gyeenormorgan, that's not lifecycle managment, just a delete hack18:33
notmorgangyee: no it allows us to do lifecycle management18:33
notmorgangyee: right now... we don't really have that option18:33
shalehIFF IDS <-> mapping live forever we can just log IDs18:33
dstanekjamielennox: not only that what if a project already exists with the deleted name...18:33
notmorganshort of a custom driver.18:33
rderosesamueldmq: ++18:33
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shalehuntil then we need both18:33
dolphmstevemar: i do just mean the flat ref18:33
notmorgandolphm: i'm actually ok with just shoving all relevant data in cadf.18:33
ayoungwe have a lot more to discuss and we are half done18:34
notmorgandolphm: if we don't blow out a maximum size18:34
dolphmstevemar: if the domain hasn't changed, you can cache your GET /domains/{domain_id} call18:34
stevemardolphm: the flat ref will have the domain_id in there, that's good enough for me18:34
ayoungPerf, use requests, name constraints18:34
ayoungSwift ACLs18:34
jamielennoxdstanek: notmorgan has explained his uniqueness theory before, it's a bit twisty but it would work18:34
notmorganayoung: swift ACLs should just be a "go read the ML thread and comment"18:34
samueldmqshould we vote ? or is it just me wanting to do the delete thing now ?18:34
notmorgansamueldmq: no18:34
jamielennoxno soft delete now18:34
shalehsoft delete is step 218:34
notmorganjust do the name thing.18:35
stevemari think we're OK now, dolph -- you good?18:35
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gyeeour resource objects arn't that big18:35
ayoungstep 3 is profit?18:35
shalehayoung: always18:35
stevemarflat ref in the notification?18:35
dolphmstevemar: are we saying no to soft deletes in the application layer, then?18:35
notmorganthe change on how deletes are handled (don't call it "soft deletes") should be a proposed spec for O release ( shaleh you should write this)18:35
stevemardolphm: ^18:35
notmorgandolphm: today. i want a spec for O on this18:35
notmorgannot in newton18:35
notmorgannot worth it18:35
notmorgantoo short of time18:35
jamielennoxnotmorgan: you can fight this all you like and implement it how you like - but the concept is what people refer to as soft deletes18:36
notmorganjamielennox: shhhhhhh18:36
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dolphmi'm okay with saying no to soft deletes later then :P18:36
samueldmqnotmorgan: my concern is that we add name/domain-name now and that won't be removed we support those deletes18:36
samueldmqnext cycle18:36
stevemardolphm: lol18:36
samueldmqnotmorgan: s/we/when18:36
notmorgandolphm: i think we should do it for the main resources that "own" things, but that is a case to be made in the spec.18:36
stevemardolphm: alright, next topic? is this horse dead enough?18:36
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dolphm(i'm not entirely opposed to soft deletes, i'm just used to letting the db handle them)18:36
notmorgandolphm: not *all* resources.18:36
ayoungHorse has been turned int dogfood and glue18:37
notmorgandolphm: and also i want the DB to handle most all of it still. ftr.18:37
dolphmor *something* else besides the app18:37
stevemar#topic Performance testing is available18:37
*** openstack changes topic to "Performance testing is available (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:37
stevemarlbragstad: you've got 3 minutes :P18:37
notmorgani'll work with shaleh to make the spec clear on that.18:37
ayoungPerf testing of what?18:37
stevemari'm kidding18:37
lbragstadwell this is going to be short18:37
lbragstadit's there, you can use it18:37
lbragstadbut im interested in feedback18:37
shalehlbragstad: this is a great start18:37
bknudsonwe could use updates to the developer docs to say how to use this18:37
notmorganlbragstad: does it make sense to move into gerrit?18:37
notmorganmy only question18:37
notmorganbut awesome work18:38
lbragstadnotmorgan good question, maybe at some point18:38
gyeelbragstad, nice handwriting!18:38
lbragstadbut right now I for sure what to improve things and make the whole system a bit better before moving it into gerrit18:38
raildolbragstad: thanks to be working on it! awesome work :)18:38
rderoselbragstad: awesome18:38
lbragstadso - feel free to use it, but it is only running on a single node18:38
lbragstadso don't add 'check performance' to every patch in review18:38
stevemarlbragstad: so it's the same machine every time?18:39
* notmorgan makes a bot for that18:39
lbragstadusing containers as the app node18:39
notmorganlbragstad: did you get a proper 3rd party ci account?18:39
notmorganok cool18:39
lbragstadit's call the 'OSIC Performance Bot'18:39
samueldmqhow's that different from rally ?18:39
lbragstadbecause I can't name things for crap18:39
lbragstadit's running on dedicated hardware18:39
notmorgansamueldmq: a lot of history, lets not cover that here18:40
jamielennoxsamueldmq: much more focused on the hot path we care about18:40
* samueldmq nods18:40
lbragstadif you have specific questions, please ask18:40
lbragstadbut I'd like to try and get this improved and exposed to a bunch of feedback this release18:40
stevemarlbragstad: so how do i invoke the perf tests on a given patch?18:40
shalehread the docs stevemar18:40
lbragstadleave a comment with 'check performance'18:41
lbragstadin the message18:41
henrynash_ nice18:41
stevemarshaleh: i did, i was just trying to force lbragstad to write it out in the meeting for everyone's convenience18:41
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shalehstevemar: :-)18:41
stevemarlbragstad: awesome stuff18:41
samueldmqstevemar: shaleh :-)18:41
henrynash_hey siri…check...18:41
bknudsonwrite a bitcoin miner and recheck performance.18:41
gyeelbragstad, so benchmark spit out a html/pdf report?18:41
lbragstadi've also tried to add a bunch of docs about the infra.18:41
stevemarso, let's use it !18:42
lbragstadso - open issues if you find anything is missing18:42
stevemarthanks lbragstad18:42
lbragstador want to see enhancements,18:42
bknudsonthis is great18:42
lbragstadno problem.18:42
knikollaawesome work!18:42
lbragstadPRs welcome18:42
stevemarnext topic jamielennox18:42
bknudsonI've been looking at performance problems for a couple weeks now.18:42
stevemar#topic Use a request object in keystone18:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Use a request object in keystone (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:42
jamielennoxok, i'll keep this quick18:42
jamielennox#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318658/18:42
ayoungwhat is the difference between a request and a context18:42
bknudsonwhat's the performance impact of using a request object in keystone?18:42
stevemarbknudson: leave a comment on the patch and see :O18:43
ayoungbknudson, premature optimization...18:43
shalehstevemar: ++18:43
jamielennoxso we've passed around this weird dict of context forever now and it results in all this checking whether things are in the dict or not and making guesses18:43
* notmorgan checks performance on all the patches!18:43
jamielennoxparticularly given we end up passing the environment around everywhere in that dict anyway18:43
notmorganjamielennox: i like using the real request objects18:44
jamielennoxwe need to integrate better with oslo.context and the objects passed down out of auth_token middleware18:44
ayoungits better organization, I'll admit.  Do we need to structure things more than just "request has a context dict" over time?18:44
bknudsondoesn't every openstack app pass around a dict of context?18:44
ayoungand if so, what doe the end state look like?18:44
jamielennoxso instead of just adding more crap to the dict i want to use real objects - with properties and stuff for attributes we care about18:44
notmorganbknudson: somewhat, but a lot of it is now centralized in oslo_context (thread local things)18:44
dstanekjamielennox: as long as request objects don't bleed lower than the controllers, then i'm on board18:44
samueldmqnotmorgan: couldn't we just use oslo.context then ?18:44
bknudsonwe've got a oslo_context.RequestContext (was added for request ID)18:44
notmorganbknudson: and we use it for the request_local caching too18:45
jamielennoxso this patch is kind of big because it has to do a lot of router/controller level stuff in one go, but things beyond that should be normal review size again18:45
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ayoungthe general pattern in Servlet programming was that you only read from the request, and write new data tothe response18:45
notmorganbknudson: so we could just use oslo_context18:45
jamielennoxdstanek: i see no reason for them to go futher than context does now18:45
amakarovsamueldmq, it will add even more spagetti code18:45
ayoungand state was saved ewither in the session (which we have none) and the database18:45
dstanekjamielennox: +2 from me then18:45
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ayoungso...why only a request object, and not a response?18:46
stevemari'm OK with it, i always found the way we pass the context around a bit weird18:46
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samueldmqamakarov: so other openstack projects adoption oslo.context are making spaghetti code ?18:46
dstaneksamueldmq: yes18:46
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amakarovsamueldmq, I think so18:46
ayoungyeah....jamie this is long overdue18:46
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jamielennoxanyway, i want to make it so that everyone knew about this and there are a number of conflicting reviews so i would like to get this merged if we all agree18:46
dolphmayoung: next step?18:46
samueldmqjamielennox: ++18:47
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stevemarhenrynash_: you'll have the rest of the time for your topic18:47
jamielennoxayoung: because ATM i need more access to the inputs and haven't had to worry about the writing18:47
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stevemarjamielennox: sounds good18:47
henrynash_stevemar: thx18:47
stevemarjamielennox: sounds like everyone is okay with it18:47
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jamielennoxayoung: but i'm silently keen to change up all the routers as well one day18:47
ayoungits a start18:47
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dolphmjamielennox: flask?18:47
ayoungI want a proper token/auth-data pipeline18:48
notmorgandolphm: ++18:48
stevemarnext topic coming up18:48
notmorgandolphm: yes flask!18:48
dolphmbrace yourselves18:48
stevemar#topic Project name constraints & project hierarchical naming18:48
*** openstack changes topic to "Project name constraints & project hierarchical naming (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:48
jamielennoxdolphm: i looked and it's just a massive change that requires rewriting all the protected stuff18:48
stevemarbrace yourselves is right18:48
jamielennoxdolphm: this at least gets us to request objects which is a step in the direction18:48
* stevemar sits back and grabs popcorn18:48
dolphmjamielennox: ++18:48
raildostevemar: lol18:48
henrynash_so we;ve been hashing this one around a while18:48
dolphmstevemar: scoot over18:48
dstanekjamielennox: take a look at my flask patch - it wasn't terrible to do18:48
* notmorgan has nothing else to add that isn't on the ML/talked with henrynash_ directly18:48
henrynash_(more accurately morgan has been knockig holes in various suggestions!)18:49
* gyee is comfortable numb18:49
henrynash_latest incarnation is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318605/18:49
henrynash_which goes for the “make project name the path” approach18:49
shalehare we gonna -2 this or not? Is there anything left to say?18:49
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amakarovdstanek, for me flask is better than the pylons legacy we call routers now :)18:50
stevemari'll admit i haven't read the latest ML posts18:50
henrynash_as described, I think this does not allow us to maintain compatibility with v3.6 clients and before18:50
ayounghenrynash_, we can't config value our way out of this hole?18:50
notmorganayoung: not really18:51
dstanekamakarov: i'm going to bring back that patch18:51
stevemarhenrynash_: did someone poke a hole in clint's suggestion? name and basename?18:51
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notmorganstevemar: doesn18:51
stevemarit seemed the least breaky to me18:51
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gyeewhat's stopping V4?18:51
notmorgansolve the unique name constraing in 3.618:51
dolphmstevemar: isn't that eventually backwards incompatible?18:52
notmorganstevemar: unless you never expect post 3.7 projects to 3.618:52
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henrynash_stevemar: so I articulated the compatibilit requiremenets in a reponse on the mailing list, I don’t see how we maintain 3.6 cleints18:52
notmorgandolphm: yes.18:52
dolphmwell, then, hole poked.18:52
henrynash_with that approacj18:52
stevemardolphm: very much so18:52
notmorgandolphm: it was the same hole i poked in removing 3.6 at all18:52
amakarovgyee, we haven't dragged OpenStack from v3 to v3 yet, and now you want to announce v4? People will linch us!18:52
stevemaramakarov: also true18:53
henrynash_no v4 required18:53
rderoseamakarov: ++18:53
henrynash_so two questions for y’all to ponder:18:53
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notmorganhenrynash_: "full name" also might be a good attr instead of "path" ?18:53
notmorganhenrynash_: side thought.18:53
samueldmqthat's all because we hadn't the full roadmap when we first implemneted hierarchical projects :(18:53
notmorganhenrynash_: but that is bike-shedding18:53
henrynash_1) Since this is the only cure we could come up with (that maintains compatility), is the cure still worse than the disease?18:54
notmorgansamueldmq: even if we had, we'd have broken a TON of people18:54
notmorgansamueldmq: and it would still be a no-go18:54
ayoungI can't keep track of the objections and the counter solutions18:54
notmorgani strongly believe that the reseller case is better with domains18:54
henrynash_2) (much more minor) severel questions on consistency in the current proposal (e.g. should you be abel to use name including a path on create project)18:54
notmorganand de-uniquing the names in a given domain doesn't provide a lot on that front18:54
samueldmqnotmorgan: maybe it wouldn't break that much if we made hierarchical project experimental and come with this in the next cycle18:55
samueldmqnotmorgan: but nevermind, let's solve what we have today18:55
notmorgansamueldmq: it breaks auth18:55
notmorgansamueldmq: that is the issue.18:55
ayoungwe could go with ldap style naming  "domain=pepsi,project_name=top,project_name=middle"18:55
dolphm(let's not break auth)18:55
samueldmqnotmorgan: because root projects now have a parent (is_domain ?)18:55
amakarovhenrynash_, closure table can be used to identify projects without unique naming and storing full path in the name18:55
notmorganayoung: thats basically what i've proposed, just with / instead18:55
ayoungsorry, we need to make that longer18:55
ayoungwe could go with ldap style naming  "domain_name=pepsi,project_name=top,project_name=middle"18:55
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notmorgansamueldmq: i'll go over that outside of here18:55
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ayoungso  "domain_name=pepsi/project_name=top/project_name=middle"18:56
gyeeayoung, UX people will look for ya18:56
jamielennoxayoung: no, never18:56
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henrynash_OK, back to the question18:56
notmorganayoung: that is effectively my proposal fwow, but was domain/px/py/pz18:56
amakarovayoung, let's writhe our own LDAP!18:56
ayoungjamielennox, scared at how quick people take me seriously18:56
shalehayoung: that is too convenient. Make it more cumbersom please18:56
bknudsonwhat if my name was domain_name=pepsi/project_name=top ?18:56
notmorganayoung: since domains are always the root.18:56
ayoungshaleh, XML?18:56
jamielennoxayoung: this was erring on the side of caution18:56
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shalehayoung: good start18:56
henrynash_Assuming you agree that we CAN solve this, without breaking compatibility (as per the current poposal https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318605/), is this worth doing18:57
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ayoungso  OS_PROJECT_NAME="domain/pepsi/top/middle" would work for scoping a token18:57
ayounghenrynash_, oh yes it is18:57
amakarovhenrynash_, we don't need it: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/285521/18:57
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henrynash_ayoung: yes (although with a leading /)18:57
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gyeeyes we can, lets make it great again, a future we believe in18:58
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ayoungOS_PROJECT_NAME="/domain/pepsi/top/middle" would work for scoping a token18:58
amakarovhenrynash_, do you want materialized path with names?18:58
henrynash_ayoungL yes18:58
henrynash_amakaraov: implmentation detail18:58
notmorganayoung: that would be the idea. it would match "name" or "path"18:58
ayounghenrynash_, and what hoops do we need to jump throughto get there18:58
notmorganayoung: in the case of old projects.18:58
notmorganayoung: since some projects might be "ProjectName" only18:58
stevemarthis is getting nasty18:58
stevemarvoice opinions on the ML or https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318605/ (or both)18:59
ayoungnotmorgan, /domain becomes a reserved project name?18:59
notmorganstevemar: i don't think we need this, but i offered an alternative when i poked holes in it18:59
jamielennoxso, i don't know how to say this better - but it's just not nice18:59
ayoungnot allowed as either project or domain, or as the start of either?18:59
notmorganayoung: no /<domainname>/<projextName>/<otherProject>18:59
stevemarnotmorgan: that's my next question, do we need this?18:59
amakarovcolleagues, closure table will allow to address project by path, index hierarchies, and leave project name be18:59
stevemarbut we're at time...18:59
notmorganstevemar: i don't think we need it. but there is a ux concern18:59
stevemarto -keystone18:59
notmorgansome orgs want /domain/acc/dev19:00
ayoungnotmorgan, so first link is alwyas domain?19:00
stevemarthanks to everyone for joining19:00
notmorganand /domain/ops/dev19:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 14 19:00:15 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
notmorganayoung: is always *a* domain19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-14-18.00.html19:00
samueldmqstevemar: thanks19:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-14-18.00.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-14-18.00.log.html19:00
fungiinfra team, i summon thee19:00
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* jeblair lurches in19:00
notmorganayoung: since we know it is always _KeystoneRoot/<domain>/<poroject>19:00
fungitopics proposed by pabelanger, crinkle, zaro19:00
* notmorgan stops talking keystone here19:00
pabelangerbeep boop19:00
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notmorganThe role of OpenStack Proposal Bot will be played by pabelanger today :P19:02
fungi#startmeeting infra19:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 14 19:02:43 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:02
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:03
fungi#topic Announcements19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
*** amakarov is now known as amakarov_away19:03
fungi#info CI outage Friday, June 17 for ~2 hours so we can upgrade the operating system for zuul.openstack.org and logs.openstack.org, time TBD19:03
fungipabelanger: did you have an announcement worked up for that yet? (sent?)19:03
pabelangerfungi: no, I have not. Apologies. I will do that now19:03
pabelangeran etherpad link I mean19:03
fungii wpn't #action it, since the window is prior to next meeting anyway19:04
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fungialso rehashed from last week's announcements for those who might have missed it...19:04
fungi#info Tentative late-cycle joint Infra/QA get together to be held September 19-21 (CW38) in at SAP offices in Walldorf, DE19:04
fungicheck with mkoderer and oomichi for details19:04
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/QAInfraNewtonSprint19:04
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fungialso here's a good one!19:05
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fungi#info StoryBoard Bug Squash! 22nd and 23rd of June19:05
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-June/004402.html19:05
oomichifungi: yeah, we will write the detail on the wiki with mkorderer and notice for you :)19:05
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fungithanks, oomichi!19:06
fungianyone know any other important upcoming things i've missed announcing before i move on?19:06
anteayaI'm hoping to have an gerrit storyboard interacting by bug squash19:06
anteayaat least on test servers19:06
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fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:07
pleia2we didn't formally #action it, but at the last meeting I said I'd draft up the wiki upgrade spec, review here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/328455/ (also topical from discussions in channel this morning)19:07
anteayapleia2: yay19:07
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fungipleia2: ahh, yep, i'd like to have that up for council approval next week, but doesn't mean we can't get started implementing sooner19:07
pleia2anteaya: thanks for your review19:07
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fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-07-19.03.html19:08
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anteayathanks for writing the spec19:08
fungi#topic Specs approval19:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:08
funginone this week, but as mentioned above, wiki upgrade spec is up for review and should hopefully be ready for approval next week19:08
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/32845519:08
fungi#topic Priority Efforts19:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)"19:09
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fungii started a ml thread reviewing the current priority list, proposing some cleanup, asking for suggestions19:09
fungi#link #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-June/004374.html19:09
fungii meant to have an update to infra-specs encapsulating the feedback up for today, but ran out of time so expect it in the next day or two hopefully19:10
rcarrillocruzi started looking on the ansible-puppet issues19:10
fungiin the meantime, please follow up there on the ml if you have anything to add19:10
fungithanks rcarrillocruz!19:10
rcarrillocruzalready pushed https://review.openstack.org/#/c/327789/ , for syslogging on puppetmaster19:10
fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Use Diskimage Builder in Nodepool (pabelanger)19:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Use Diskimage Builder in Nodepool (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:11
rcarrillocruzpuppetdb on 3.x and all will go shortly19:11
fungii approved the change to close this one out a few minutes ago19:11
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/32908019:11
pleia2congrats all19:11
fungianother one down!19:11
pabelangerindeed, congrats to everybody on that19:11
fungiexcellent work, everyone19:11
fungiis there any redux/post-mortem needed on it?19:12
clarkbfungi: maybe as part of removing snapshot builds from nodepool we can write something up19:12
clarkb"hey this happened this is why" etc19:12
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fungii think this is one of those which started out a little vague and grew too many tentacles whichi should have been treated as related/prerequisite priority efforts19:13
pabelangerhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/325339/ for deprecating19:13
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fungiin the future, we should keep in mind that scope changes on existing priority efforts might be better off as additional (perhaps small) specs which we can just declare as a de facto priority because of being a blocking prerequisite for a priority we've approved. it makes it a little easier to be able to see the progress being made and keeps us from ending up with specs which linger forever without19:14
fungiclear reasons for taking so long19:14
fungii'm partially to blame on this one for deciding to tack on bindep implementation in jobs without creating a separate blocking spec to cover that19:15
clarkbglean was another massive thing that jammed the works19:15
fungiyep, same sort of situation19:16
clarkbnot strictly required but we went down the rabbit hole so far that we didn't really have a choice but to dig out the other side19:16
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jeblairwell, i pushed that too.  it was administratively easy to do at the time, but is perhaps worth the extra effort as you say19:16
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fungianyway, awesome all of this is done and we can now reap the benefits of using our own images and _only_ our own images in ci19:17
fungithanks again everyone19:17
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rcarrillocruzyay glean19:17
prometheanfirercarrillocruz: :D19:17
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fungi#topic Priority Efforts: Infra-cloud (crinkle)19:17
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts: Infra-cloud (crinkle) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:17
crinkleso when we shut down the servers in fort collins some of them were on kilo and some were on liberty19:18
crinklewe now have code to update the puppet module for mitaka19:18
crinklei recall we decided our upgrade strategy was just to do a full redeploy19:18
fungiand rcarrillocruz is redeploying everything as we speak19:18
crinkleso i think it makes sense to just merge the mitaka code and have mitaka?19:18
rcarrillocruzwell, fixing inventory19:18
rcarrillocruzwe haven't gone that far to redeploy (yet)19:18
fungiokay, right, not up to the redeploy stage yet19:19
crinkleyeah i think we're some work away from redeploy but still19:19
jeblairfungi: nice try -- next time you say that, it'll be true! :)19:19
pabelangerbaremetal00.vanilla.ic.openstack.org is online and managed by ansible / puppet again too19:19
rcarrillocruzi'd say yes to mitaka19:19
anteayacrinkle: what is the downside of merging the mitaka code?19:19
pleia2I've been using the mitaka puppet modules elsewhere, they're in good shape19:19
fungibut i agree, trying to redeploy with mitaka and working out obvious bugs would be a great use of the environment while we have it (until the upcoming move)19:19
crinklepabelanger suggested i check and see if anyone had strong feelings about upgrading all to mitaka as opposed to equalizing to liberty19:19
crinkleanteaya: none that i can see really19:19
rcarrillocruzwhich, unofficially, will happen end of next month19:19
clarkbI think we should mitaka19:19
anteayacrinkle: great, thanks then I am in favour of merging19:20
pabelangerI'm for mitaka too19:20
rcarrillocruzwe'll pass on info as we get it19:20
fungiyeah, redeploy means we don't really care that there's a release skip for some of the systems in the mix19:20
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fungiso no objection fromme. if anything, complete agreement19:21
crinkleokay sounds good19:21
fungi#agreed upcoming infra-cloud redeploy should be 100% mitaka19:21
crinkle#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/312319/19:21
crinkle#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/304946/19:21
anteayafromme means pious apparently19:21
fungithanks crinkle, rcarrillocruz!19:21
fungii like when my terrible typos have actual meaning in other languages19:22
anteayame too, it was a good one19:22
fungianything else on this?19:22
crinklenot from me19:22
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rcarrillocruzneither from me19:23
fungi#topic Updated Gerrit GC test results (zaro)19:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Updated Gerrit GC test results (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:23
fungi#link https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-infra@lists.openstack.org/msg04374.html19:24
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fungihopefully everyone's been following the ml thread19:24
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fungiare there further objections to or test requests before turning on garbage collection and pruning?19:24
zaroso i got more info. wondering if we wanted to make any changes to git repos?19:24
fungiand was the suggestion to do git gc or jgit gc? noting that we'll presumably still need to git gc on the mirrors as well?19:25
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zaromaybe decide on interval as well?19:26
fungijeblair: ^ you were probably the most vocal as far as specific ideas of what should be tested first19:27
zarothe existing repack is set for weekly.19:27
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jeblairzaro seems to have covered everything! :)19:27
zaroi’ve prepared a change to switch out repack with gc (same interval), #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/32956619:27
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fungiyeah, i'm satisfied we've got sufficient diligence on this, given the risk such a change potentially carries19:29
fungizaro: thanks so much for all the work trying out combinations and reporting stats19:29
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zaronp. glad to do :)19:29
fungiand hashar (not in channel) for pitching in details from wikimedia foundation's deployment19:30
zaroi’ve also prepared changes to upgrade to latest gerrit 2.11  but wanted to wait until gc change and see what happens19:30
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fungiso the proposed change is to stick with git gc on the gerrit server rather than jgit gc in the background, since we can make it match what we do on the cgit servers, right?19:31
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jeblairi like that approach19:31
zaromakes sense to me.19:31
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fungi#agreed Let's start doing git garbage collection on review.openstack.org and the git.openstack.org servers19:32
fungianything else on this?19:32
zaroohh wait, weekly ok?19:32
fungiit's what we've done so far. i think it's a fine first step19:33
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fungiif we decide we want to even it out more, we can make it more frequent later now that we're at least comfortable it's a working solution19:33
fungi#topic Open discussion19:33
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pleia2I should have added this to the agenda, but I could use a bit of help with the translations checksite, re: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/translation_check_site.html19:33
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pleia2I've been working  with Frank Kloeker, but we've run into some snags I'm not sure how to solve19:34
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pleia2we have a new puppet module for installing devstack and pulling in the translations in openstack-infra/puppet-translation_checksite19:34
pleia2on a good day, it pretty much works (still needs a patch for a longer timeout)19:35
fungialso, on the earlier topic of the wiki upgrade and improvements, i'm hoping to propose including it in the newton priorities list once the spec is approved. i at least intend to be spending a fair amount of effort getting it into better shape19:35
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prometheanfireI have a couple of reviews I'd like looked at more gentoo stuff19:35
pleia2on most days, ./stack.sh will fail to build in some way and we're left with a broken instance19:35
crinklei'm curious if there are proposed topics for the infra/qa midcycle? i might have missed it19:36
prometheanfire5 weeks old :P https://review.openstack.org/#/c/310865/19:36
fungicrinkle: suggestions were zuul v3 or infra-cloud again19:36
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fungicrinkle: but nothing solid yet. open to ideas!19:36
docaedoI'd appreciate some feedback on my IRC spec (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/319506/1) and maybe some guidance on what to do next? Or just wait 'till the spec is approved and go from there?19:36
prometheanfireianw: you think I can unmark that wip?19:36
crinklefungi: thank you19:36
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pleia2so our plan of refreshing devstack weekly as outlined in the spec is complicated 1) by the devstack builds failing 2) we have downtime when we rebuild devstack, though weekly for a couple hours seems reasonable assuming the build is successful19:37
prometheanfirealso need reviews for https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318994/ to clean up the nodepool dib elements19:37
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clarkbpleia2: do you think devstack is the right tool for this?19:37
pleia2I was wondering if we're going about this wrong, since we have tooling to build devstack instances already, and this is essentially a read-only instance from the perspective of translators19:37
fungidocaedo: yeah, after looking into it, and alternatives, and watching some of the same discussion unfold for the python infra community i think i'm close to being in favor19:38
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anteayapleia2: do you have thoughts on what approach would work better?19:38
pleia2clarkb: we need a build of openstack that we can apply the in-progress translations to during the last month before release, devstack seemed like the right thing19:38
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jeblairpleia2: why do the devstack builds fail?19:38
anteayawould a disk image builder image make more sense?19:38
ianwprometheanfire: have you built a gentoo image?  we can work on integrating it but the first step is to know that dib with all the infra elements is going to actually output a usable qcow219:39
clarkbpleia2: ok I just ask because if it fails more often than not that seems like potentially a bad idea. But may be worth figuring out those fails too19:39
docaedofungi: thanks - since you're the spirit guide for it I'll just pester you occasionally for additional feedback ;)19:39
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jeblair(theoretically, devstack should almost always work -- it's gated)19:39
prometheanfireianw: I'll test tonight or tomorrow19:39
fungidocaedo: was there a demo for the interface somewhere?19:39
pleia2jeblair: last time it was a puppet timeout, another time it was network weirdness on my instance, we have no fault tolerance in the module so any problems are fatal19:39
prometheanfireianw: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318994/ shouldn't need to wait though19:39
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docaedofungi: no, but I can make an account on my test server and PM you the details19:40
docaedofungi: user account management is a gap right now too, feel like that will need some discussion and a brilliant plan from you or some other genius on the infra team19:41
clarkbpleia2: ah ok the fails are not in devstack itself but in the surrounding tooling/env19:41
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fungidocaedo: oh, that would be cool. and yeah account setup is one of those sticking points for wider adoption. while the idea has merit the opportunity to attract abusive users without vetting is high19:41
pleia2clarkb: yeah, once or twice it's been I got unlucky and devstack was actually broken, but toward the end of the cycle when translators are active this should not be a problem, devstack should be pretty solid by then19:42
jeblairdocaedo: could we hook it into openstackid/ipsilon?19:42
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anteayajeblair: what is the current status of ipsilon progress?19:42
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docaedojeblair: in theory, yes, but someone would need to write the JS for it as that doesn't exist in The Lounge right now19:43
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fungibasically running a thelounge instance without limiting it to specific users and specific channels would be likely to attract spammers and other abusive users because we'd basically just be operating an "open proxy" to freenode19:43
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jeblairanteaya: not yest begun19:44
docaedocorrect, even if it was tied to openstackID I would want some curated list of accounts that are active19:44
anteayajeblair: thanks19:44
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notmorgandocaedo: that is fair19:44
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pabelangerFirst pass at our gerrit outage: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/upgrade-zuul-trusty19:45
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fungidocaedo: limiting it to channels where openstack infra has ops would also be good, if we can do that19:45
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fungibasically anything we can do to prevent freenode staff from blocking its ip address due to abuse19:45
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fungibecause then, nobody's able to use it19:45
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docaedofungi: that's probably not too difficult, but I would argue that's not necessary if we're deciding who we set up with it (presumably a small audience of mostly working group people)19:45
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nibalizerusually they limit connections at 10ish per ip anywyas, so we'd have to talk to them regardless19:46
docaedofungi: but yes, getting banned by freenode would not be great19:46
nibalizerpleia2: likely knows more19:46
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pleia2yeah, we should notify them that we're hosting it19:46
jeblairwe might want to see if tomaw can provide some feedback on the idea19:46
fungidocaedo: one solution would be to delegate account control to others in the community (working group leads or something) to field new account requests19:46
fungisince they're likely to know when someone requesting access is legitimately needing it19:47
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docaedofungi: I would be all for that, I do not want to be the person in charge of IRC accounts by any means19:47
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fungias widespread and in touch with the community as our team is, we're not omnipotent and don't know a lot of the regulars on various board-appointed working groups and the like19:48
fungibut opening it up to anyone with an openstack foundation member accuont is just likely to result in lots of people signing up as foundation members (with bogus info) so they can abuse the proxy19:48
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anteayawhat problem is this solving?19:49
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anteayasorry I haven't been following along19:49
anteayawhat are we fixing with this19:49
fungianteaya: https://review.openstack.org/319506 proposes a spec to host a persistent web irc client19:50
docaedoanteaya: the short answer is helping people who aren't comfortable with IRC get on IRC19:50
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docaedoanteaya: essentially giving them an IRCCloud account without them having to pay for it (by hosting an alternate with similar UX and functionality)19:50
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anteayagiven the amount of human work going to be needed to ensure the tool isn't abused would it make sense to offer instructions to those who are uncomfortable to become comfy?19:51
fungias opposed to pushing them to freenode's webchat (which doesn't catch scrollback when they're offline, so will miss async private messages) or irccloud (which costs money)19:51
anteayaI mean humans will have to be actively montioring its use anyway19:51
anteayawho needs to have to pay for irc?19:51
anteayaI've never heard of having to pay to use irc19:51
pleia2irccloud is a popular paid service19:52
fungianteaya: to be frank, i pay for access to irc (because i run my irc client on a persistent virtual host in a public cloud provider)19:52
anteayafungi: well yes, that is true19:52
nibalizersame as fungi19:52
anteayayes, good point19:52
docaedoanteaya: theres a service (ircclloud.com) that has a free tier, but the paid tier gives you scrollback when you leave and return19:52
anteayaso teaching folks xchat is off the table?19:52
* zaro pays for the ircloud19:52
anteayaif that has already been discarded then fine19:53
docaedoanteaya: you could definitely give some feedback on the spec :)19:53
fungiso take random project manager at $member_company who wants to participate in an openstack board-designated working group19:53
anteayait just seems this is going to be maintenance heavy19:53
docaedoanteaya: the other thing I want to solve is the drive-by IRC use, where folks pop on just for a meeting, and don't use IRC again (ideally helping bring more people into our globally distributed IRC community)19:53
anteayadocaedo: that is fair, I think there is value in helping them find where the channel logs are hosted19:54
docaedoanteaya: it might be maintenance heavy, it's one of the concerns I noted in the spec19:54
fungithe likely end results are 1. we convince them to use irc and having their meetings where the technical community has their meetings by providing a low-barrier-to-entry interface to irc for them, or 2. they use google hipmeets or whatever19:54
anteayaokay I've said my bit, thanks for listening19:54
docaedofungi: exactly, well said, thanks.19:55
docaedofungi: also can you share an invite to google hipmeets if you have one? thanks!19:55
fungidocaedo: i think it's integrated with orkut19:55
docaedofungi: :P19:56
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persiaA potentially relevant data point: one of the behaviours I see in many contexts for this class of folk is a reliance on conference calls, sometimes with IRC adjuncts, where the IRC consists of #action, #info, #topic, but no content.19:56
fungipersia: thanks, that is certainly a distinct risk19:56
anteayapersia: any suggestions for getting all the content on irc?19:56
anteayapersia: or just an observation19:56
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pleia2re: translations checksite, I'll get the stakeholders on a thread on the -infra list with a more cohesive explanation of what we're struggling with so we can ask more specific questions about the direction we're going in19:57
fungithough i'd argue that having a meeting secretary shorthand the minutes into our meetbot is still better than nothing public at all19:57
persiaanteaya: Reduce barriers to entry for persistent IRC.  Note that there are some engineering teams who contribute to parts of OpenStack (e.g. bits of Neutron) that have the behaviour I described.19:57
anteayapersia: can you review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/319506/ with your observations19:58
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anteayaalso I acknowledge some Neutron folks still have this habit19:58
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fungiwe're down to the last couple minutes. anybody have anything else?19:58
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anteayathough overall there has been great improvement in that project19:58
fungipleia2: sounds good re: the translations checksite19:58
anteayapersia: thanks19:58
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fungii didn't expect running and periodically rebuilding a devstack instance would be trivial. after all, i've seen our ci jobs ;)19:59
pleia2indeed :)19:59
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fungiokay, we're at time. thanks everyone! see you in #openstack-infra20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 14 20:00:12 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-14-19.02.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-14-19.02.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-14-19.02.log.html20:00
fungisilly adjacent keys20:00
ttxannegentle, dims, dhellmann, johnthetubaguy, mestery, mtreinish, thingee, mordred, morgan, russellb, sdague : around ?20:00
docaedofungi: don't feel bad, @endmeeting is how it works in hipmeets20:00
russellbmestery sends his regrets20:00
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 14 20:01:02 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
notmorgano/ -ish20:01
ttxSmall quorum but we'll make it happen20:01
ttxOur agenda for today is:20:01
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:01
* edleafe_ lurks while in his parked car20:01
ttx#topic Tidy of item 5 of the vulnerability:managed tag20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Tidy of item 5 of the vulnerability:managed tag (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/30069820:01
flaper87edleafe_: please, open the windows or turn the AC on20:01
ttxThis one sounds like a good incremental improvement, now that the security folks are happy with it20:02
* flaper87 is happy with it20:02
ttxStill short of a few votes though20:02
fungivmt members are satisfied with sdake's proposal20:02
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sdakehi fungi :)20:02
notmorganfungi: ++20:02
dims+1 from me20:02
dimsthanks fungi20:02
notmorganas both TC and VMT, i think it's good.20:02
edleafe_flaper87: It's 97F. The AC is running20:02
ttxneed two more votes20:02
flaper87edleafe_: jeez20:03
* Rockyg suggests edleafe roll down w window to avoid heat stroke20:03
annegentleRockyg: edleafe_ nope just keep the car running with AC!20:03
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notmorganttx: oops looks like i forgot to rollcall vote on it20:03
notmorganfixed that20:03
ttxlooks like we have enough now20:03
ttxok, approved20:04
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ttx#topic Fast-tracking projects.yaml release tags / deliverable changes (dhellmann)20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Fast-tracking projects.yaml release tags / deliverable changes (dhellmann) (Meeting topic: tc)"20:04
* amrith wanders in ...20:04
ttxdhellmann: want to introduce this one ?20:04
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dhellmannWe’ve added some validation rules to the release request process that verify that the thing being released matches the thing as defined for governance.20:04
dhellmannWe’ve started noticing in a few cases that updates to the governance repository to “fix” release-related settings like release models and deliverable definitions have been delaying releases.20:04
dhellmannI would like to propose a general exception to the review policy for openstack/governance that if the change does not effect governance, and are only related to tags managed by other teams, we not wait the week for “objections”.20:04
dhellmannFor example, changing the release model of an existing deliverable and adding (or removing) the tags for stable or security teams would only need to be reviewed by the relevant team, and then they can be approved by the chair.20:04
dhellmannSplitting or combining deliverables is a similar sort of change that’s a bit more complex because making new deliverables may require the approval of multiple groups to set the appropriate tags.20:04
dhellmannHowever, as long as no new repositories are added I think this sort of change should also be fast-tracked.20:04
* flaper87 notices dhellmann prepared hist intro ahead of the meeting20:04
flaper87dhellmann: ++20:04
dhellmannChanges that add repositories, and therefore change the voter roles for the TC, should continue to go through the 1 week review period.20:04
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russellbsounds reasonable to me20:05
flaper87I'm in favor of this20:05
sdagueworks for me20:05
johnthetubaguy+1 from me20:06
notmorgansdague: ++ same20:06
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ttxI guess we could revert if a TC member ends up objecting two days after the fact20:06
dhellmannttx: yes, that's a good point. all of this is ultimately mutable.20:06
mtreinishno issue from me20:06
annegentledhellmann: ooo my only tough sell point is the "splitting or combining deliverables" part... what's that like? Do you have an example?20:06
annegentledhellmann: gnocci/aodh/ceilometer type stuff?20:07
dhellmannannegentle : the recent stuff with neutron20:07
ttxdhellmann: so, release: and security: tags changes, + deliverable reorganization ?20:07
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dhellmannttx: and the stable tag20:07
ttxif I have the correspodning PTL signoff I can fasttrack them20:07
dhellmannand any other teams to which we've delegated management of tags in the future (like if annegentle's work turns into doc tags)20:07
* edleafe_ has to go - daughter is ready.20:07
dhellmannttx: yes20:08
ttxok, let me capture that20:08
dhellmannshould I write this up more formally as a resolution, or can we agree to a procedural thing without that?20:08
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dhellmannwe've made agreements on procedural decisions in-meeting in the past, iirc, like our current fast-track policy on typos20:08
ttx#agreed for projects.yaml chnage affecting stable: security: or release: tags (or deliverable reorganization) the TC chait can fast-track approval if the corresponding PTL approved it20:08
flaper87I'm good with meeting agreement20:08
dimsttx : dhellmann : am generally in favor..don't really see a need for resolution, we could update some instructions/readme somewhere20:08
ttxdhellmann: no, it's a procedural agreement20:08
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dhellmannok, cool, just making sure20:09
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ttxI guess we could document it as house rules20:09
annegentleI'm ok with fast-track20:09
* flaper87 pictures dhellmann doing the "I don't need to write a resolution" dance20:09
dhellmannttx: +1 to writing things down20:09
annegentleI might regret it later :) but seems like trust is best20:09
ttx#action ttx to document house rules20:09
ttx(that's the speech I end up giving at every start of cycle)20:09
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dhellmannan alternative is to move some of those tags into the repo where we're using them and validating them, but we've been focusing on putting them all in the governance repo for consistency so...20:10
ttxok, anything else on that topic ?20:10
dhellmannttx: that's it from me, if we've settled the question20:10
ttx#topic Add project Smaug to OpenStack big-tent20:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Add project Smaug to OpenStack big-tent (Meeting topic: tc)"20:11
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/32672420:11
ttxSmaug aims to provide data protection as a service (in a large sense of the word "data")20:11
ttxI could not spot any good reason to deny them / delay their entry, so I'm tentatively +1 on this20:11
ttxsaggi: o/20:12
ttxQuestions ?20:12
annegentleone concept I read and read but couldn't understand is:20:12
saggiI'm here20:12
annegentlewhat are the plugable pieces? the protections?20:12
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saggiThere are 3 main pluggable pieces.20:12
saggi1. is what we call protectables20:13
annegentleare "Protection Plugins" open source?20:13
saggiIt's the resources you want to protect and their relationships20:13
saggiannegentle: yes20:13
annegentlesorry saggi, I mispoke, I wondered about the plugins. What are some of the names?20:13
annegentleof plugins?20:13
saggiFor protection we have cinder\nova\neutron.20:14
dhellmannannegentle : are you asking about which plugins are implemented/planned or which areas of smaug can have plugins?20:14
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flaper87russellb: ++20:14
russellbclears up what "protectables" are for me20:14
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saggiThings you want to protect. The "what".20:14
annegentledhellmann: what are names of plugins, that's what I'm trying to understand. I understand what you want to protect20:15
sdagueright, it's basically calling out to existing services - https://github.com/openstack/smaug/blob/ce2b117a184ade8f376839178fdc34c2d70896b7/smaug/services/protection/protection_plugins/volume/cinder_protection_plugin.py#L4120:15
saggiThe user can add external protectables if they are required for the application. They define new types of resources you can protect and how they relate20:15
dhellmannI understood this to be a thing to put in front of different backup tools that would implement backup for different types of objects in an appropriate way.20:15
saggiThey define that a volume is needed by a VM20:15
annegentlesaggi: as an app developer, do I define a plugin that protects multiple protectables?20:16
saggiit's pluggable in a sense that the user can add entity external to Openstack an they will be included in the tree.20:16
saggiProtection Plugins are the "how"20:16
saggiyou can define multiple protection plugins to a single protectable.20:16
Rockygso, what would the manila plugin name look like?20:16
saggiit's the admins responsibility to choose what protection plugin to map to what resource20:16
annegentlesaggi: is this an admin tool or an app developer tool? Are you protecting the service or resources run on the service?20:17
dhellmannsaggi : so I could have a protection plugin for storing things to swift and a protection plugin for writing things to magnetic tape, and then the admin would map the appropriate one to keystone data, cinder, data, etc.?20:17
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Rockygdhellmann, good question20:17
saggiThis will be a bank plugin.20:18
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saggiSo the protection plugin takes a protectable and puts it in the bank.20:18
saggiWe don't enforce all the data being in the bank20:18
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saggibut it must put information on where to find the data to the bank20:18
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saggiso when we restore we give that information to the plugin20:19
dhellmannok, I understand protectables and banks, but I don't understand protections then20:19
ttxPersonally I feel like it's a weird mix of very cloudy stuff (advanced service driven by an API) but which would likely be used on very non-cloud-native apps, but then we are no longer judging the usefulness.20:19
annegentlesaggi: I'm worried this is a really different way to use the term plugin.20:19
annegentlettx: I had that concern as well, that if you use this, you create pet apps even.20:19
annegentlettx: rather than using cloudy architectures20:19
sdagueannegentle: pet apps are fine20:20
saggiannegentle: pet apps?20:20
russellblooks like there's just a swift bank plugin today?20:20
annegentlesaggi: using the "pets vs cattle" analogy, does this mean you create apps that aren't cloudy?20:20
dimssaggi : what changes if any are needed in other projects for smaug to work (or work better).20:20
sdaguethe value of openstack is that it spans the whole gambit20:20
annegentlesaggi: and therefore pet apps20:20
russellbprotectable: a glance image.  protection plugin: glance (it knows how to back up an image).  bank: a place to store stuff, like swift20:20
russellbis that a fair summary?20:20
oshidoshiannegentle: pet apps are a possibility, many companies still use them, that's not necessarily a bad thing20:21
russellbtrying to make a tl;dr :)20:21
ttxannegentle: yeah, pet apps are fine. It's just the combination of using a cloud API to drive data protection on a pet app that sounds alien. But then I guess with a UI on top...20:21
jbrycesdague: +120:21
saggirussellb: you are correct20:21
russellbsaggi: ok thanks20:21
flaper87russellb: I believe it is. I asked earlier today in smaug's channel whether it'd make sense for smaug to use glance_Store to be able to talk to more stores20:21
flaper87saggi: ^20:21
oshidoshirussleb: +20:21
dhellmannrussellb : thanks, that's clear20:21
flaper87The answer was yes, and it can be implemented as a bank20:21
dimsrussellb : thanks for that. makes it clearer20:22
dhellmannsdague : s/gambit/gamut/20:22
sdaguedhellmann: sure, that too :)20:22
saggiAs far as pets vs cattle. Backing up and restoring glance images and network topology is important regardless.20:22
dhellmannalthough some may say openstack is a gambit of sorts20:23
saggiAlso, since we don't limit the entities you want to protect you can also back up your heat templates.20:23
sdagueright, I think we decided a while ago that we were not going to focus on "perceived usefulness" and instead let projects play out and find their community or not20:23
ttxStill short of a few votes. Any other questions you'd like to ask saggi ?20:23
dimssdague ++20:23
annegentlesdague: yeah, still was curious20:23
johnthetubaguysdague +120:23
dhellmannsdague : ++20:24
sdaguethis doesn't really overlap anything other projects are doing, definitely seems like some users want it20:24
* dims votes20:24
dhellmannsaggi : thanks for clarifying the technical stuff20:24
amrithdo I understand correctly that this backs up not just the data but the metadata in openstack as well?20:24
annegentlesaggi: again, is this service intended for admins or app devs?20:24
russellbi think the dependency graph approach to backup of different resources is interesting20:24
annegentlesaggi: or maybe I missed it, I'm on a terrible IRC client :)20:24
amrithi.e. would it be used to backup an openstack deployment?20:24
russellbhappy to see it explored20:24
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saggibut also tenant admins20:24
amrithor to backup, say a database running in the openstack cloud?20:24
* dims sees amrith worry/think about trove's backup capabilities20:25
saggiamrith: The deployment, it might include backing up the DB in an optimized way.20:25
amritham wondering how this is different from, for example, snapshots of a cinder volume directly.20:25
Rockygsaggi, ++20:25
saggiThis is where cooperation with freezer comes into play20:25
thingeettx: o/20:25
russellbamitry: because it captures more than cinder volumes, and the relationships between them20:25
ttxWe now have a majority20:25
dhellmannamrith : it includes the metadata, and relationships between objects, so you can restore all of that rather than just bits on a volume20:25
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russellbhopefully not duplicating the actual work of volume backup necessarily20:26
amrithdhellmann, I'm trying to wrap my head around a practical use case20:26
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russellbanyway, that's a detail :)20:26
saggiClassically you back up storage and make scripts. We want to eliminate the need for scripts.20:26
amrithand finding it hard to relate smaug to a database20:26
ttxkeeping in mind it's pretty young at this stage20:26
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amrithmanaged by an admin or trove.20:26
amrithso I'm wondering whether maybe databases are not the right target.20:26
amrithfor example, in a database there's config information and data20:26
amrithand I'm wondering how one would express that to smaug20:26
amrithand how smaug would, for example, know to quiesce a database and take a transaction consistent backup20:27
amrithin a way that would be better than whatever the database vendor provides20:27
dhellmannI think that's getting deeper into the tech than we need to.20:27
jrollamrith: sounds like it's more, back up your flavors and such20:27
flaper87tbh, I think it's fine to explore all those questions after the meeting20:27
dims++ flaper8720:27
saggiamrith: We do it because the DB protectable will tell us it depends on the VM20:27
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dhellmannamrith : as a cloud user, I do not have access to my cloud provider's database backups20:27
saggithis is where the relationships come into play20:27
amrithwill take it offline20:27
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oshidoshiamrith: you are welcome to contact us on our irc, we'll be happy to discuss20:28
dimssaggi : thanks!20:28
ttxamrith: thx!20:28
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amrithsaggi, flaper87 dims dhellmann ... wondering how trove can use smaug. thanks!20:28
ttxOK, approving now unless someone screams20:28
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annegentlettx: got my vote in20:28
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saggiWe have docs about how we traverse the resource tree and build the task graph to make dependent tasks between resources happen.20:29
ttxsaggi: welcome20:29
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saggiThanks everyone20:29
annegentlethanks saggi !20:29
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oshidoshithanks guys20:29
oshidoshiand gals20:29
amriththx saggi will catch you later20:29
ttx#topic Updates projects.yaml to indicate type:service only if a REST API is provided20:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Updates projects.yaml to indicate type:service only if a REST API is provided (Meeting topic: tc)"20:29
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/31709420:29
ttxSo... I raised this one since I'm not sure we want to overload the governance projects.yaml in this way20:29
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ttxOn this one Anne suggests we limit type:service to things which provide a REST service endpoint, so that it could be reused to build API doc links20:30
ttxThat results in removing it from Horizon, which I could agree with20:30
ttxBut I have three objections20:30
annegentlettx: I originally wanted a handy way to scan for "does this provide an API?"20:30
ttx1/ it implies that type:service is redefined, since Horizon fills the "provides a user-facing long-running service, usually with a REST API" requirement20:30
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annegentlebut fine with abandoning and going the "discover REST API docs" route20:30
ttx2/ it uses a deliverable type tag to specify something which is more of a technical property of a specific component (we have "deliverables" which provide multiple REST API endpoints)20:30
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ttx3/ it's a bit of a slippery slope to add extra type of data to projects.yaml, especially data which is not directly consumed by humans. It's not a service catalog imho20:31
annegentlettx: agreed on all 320:31
ttxannegentle: ok cool :)20:31
funginot to be pedantic, but whether a long-running service provides an api (rather than just ui) and what protocol is used for that api seem like separate facets too20:31
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annegentleif anyone has ideas for how to discover what API docs are where for each service please tell me :)20:32
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mtreinishttx: so add a provides:rest_api tag?20:32
ttxfungi: hence the "usually"20:32
* dims nods to fungi's comment20:32
annegentlemtreinish: I think I'll do a docs: -api: http://blah url20:32
ttxmtreinish: I don't think that would be useful20:32
annegentlemtreinish: per deliverable20:32
fungimtreinish's suggestion is what i was thinking of as well20:32
ttxmy suggestion here would be to either extend the YAML grammar to make room for a list of APIs provided by the project team / deliverable / repository20:33
dhellmannyeah, if the point of this is to link to API docs, let's just do the simple thing and add the links.20:33
annegentlewould that idea work - per deliverable, does it have an API, and where are the docs?20:33
ttxor move that to another repository / YAML file20:33
anteayadhellmann: ++20:33
ttxannegentle: the trick being some of those deliverable maybe propose multiple APIs (not sure)20:33
annegentledhellmann: one goal is to figure out which services we need to provide nav to on an API docs site20:33
fungii agree that this isn't something which necessarily needs describing and tracking by the tc (hence a governance tag)20:33
mtreinishannegentle: I think having a link per deliverable would work fine20:33
dims+1 to another repository / yaml file (maintained by doc team?)20:34
annegentlettx: eesh. well ok20:34
annegentledims: ugh. hm20:34
mtreinishttx: if there are multiple apis they can have a single doc still20:34
sdaguedims: if we go down that route, I think realistically we already have a different solution20:34
annegentledims: I mean docs already have to figure this out from non-truth-sources. I see projects.yaml as a source of truth.20:34
dhellmannannegentle : sure. so maybe a deliverable tag here, and then when it comes to making sure those docs are linked elsewhere we can figure out the details of what "has an api" means for that deliverable?20:34
sdaguebecause we have a repo for the service types list, which went on hold when we actually hit this hard question20:34
annegentledhellmann: I like per-deliverable20:34
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sdaguethat api doc links weren't obvious20:34
* dims thinking20:34
annegentlesdague: yeah that too20:34
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dimswe need a tag and a url to where the api docs are?20:35
ttxok, so extend grammar to add collection of API doc links20:35
sdagueannegentle: if this is mostly just for api site nav, I think we probably should revive the service types authority and do that there20:35
ttxdims: doesn't have to be a tag, especially if it needs to have a value20:35
mugsiesdague: ++20:35
dhellmanndo we need to keep a tag, or do we just need to review what we have in these repos one time so we can manage the links elsewhere?20:35
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johnthetubaguysdague: oh, is that the stuff related to the service catalog?20:36
ttxsdague: yeah, that was what I was hinting at20:36
annegentlesdague: it's for nav, for outreach to teams... discoverability (how does anyone figure this out?)20:36
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: yeh, it's been on a hiatus because api-ref was related and more important20:36
dhellmannso maybe the tag is "has contributed their info to the service catalog working group"?20:36
dimsdhellmann : the "team" concept in releases/ repo ...20:36
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ttxdhellmann: in all cases I'd say it would not end up being a tag. Could be some new key on the YAML grammar20:36
johnthetubaguysdague: yeah, I see what you mean, what we need is a list of OpenStack APIs and how to find them20:37
ttxsince we need it to have a value20:37
annegentleI'm definitely abandoning the service:type patch. Would like ideas for docs including APIs20:37
dhellmannttx: it sounded like the value is going to be kept in that other repo, though?20:37
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ttxannegentle: maybe we can come up with a solution by discussing that offline between you, sdague and me ?20:37
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annegentledhellmann: hopefully not, ideally it'll be expanded and agreed upon after https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316396/20:38
sdagueyeh, lets have an offline chat just to figure out if there is another approach here20:38
annegentlettx: yeah that works.20:38
* thingee cuts out for next flight back home20:38
annegentlettx: it's not urgent this week for sure :)20:38
amrithsafe travels thingee20:38
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ttxannegentle: maybe over emails so that we can think about our responses more :)20:39
annegentlettx: I like email. a lot. too much.20:39
anteayaannegentle: so the problem is in creating the motivation for projects to come to you with links?20:39
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ttxannegentle: could be a -dev thread20:39
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annegentleanteaya: problem space is varied :) discoverability, readability, navigation, and source-of-truth20:39
annegentlettx: yeah, ok20:39
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anteayaannegentle: okay thanks20:39
ttxok, we have several topics to discuss in open discussion, so I'll move on20:39
dimsannegentle : not a small task for sure. thanks!20:40
ttxannegentle: starting with describing all the goals sounds like a good start20:40
ttx#topic Open discussion20:40
annegentleI'm a conflater. sigh.20:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:40
dhellmannttx: ++20:40
ttxmorgan wanted to discuss data files defined in setup.cfg and sdague the API rate limiting20:40
ttxwhoever speaks first wins20:40
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ttxnotmorgan wins by arguably cheating20:40
notmorganactually if sdague wants to go, i'll defer20:40
flaper87notmorgan: now you have to speak20:40
* dhellmann pictures confetti raining down on notmorgan 20:40
sdagueok so my thing - http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-operators/2016-June/010692.html20:40
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* notmorgan lets sdague talk20:41
sdaguewe used to have this toy rate limitter in nova20:41
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ttxlet's do sdague first to have one discussion at a time20:41
notmorganmine can wait until next week + have a resolution to governance20:41
notmorganif there is no time after20:41
sdaguewhich is now gone20:41
notmorgansdague: right.20:41
sdaguebecause it was a toy, and really bad. It was disabled in havana by default20:41
sdaguehowever, rate limiting is kind of a fundamentally important unit to API services with unknown users20:42
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sdagueand it seems like we should try to figure out how to get our community on to the same, or a set of pages to collaborate there20:42
notmorgansdague: and i've see a number of bugs, some originally securiyt then made public, some just public around rate limiting.20:42
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dhellmannso are you envisioning building our own version of something like https://pypi.python.org/pypi/turnstile ?20:42
fungicase in point, the vmt fields numerous reports of "denial of service" vulnerabilities which boil down to no way to limit request volume20:42
ttxsdague: the historical answer by the VMT was that this needs to be solved outside of openstack, so we avoided to consider rate-based attacks as vulnerabilities20:42
notmorganthis has been a real thorn for a number of reasons.20:42
dhellmann(which is old and apparently unmaintained)20:42
mtreinishsdague: just thinking out loud, but can't you just do it in apache or whatever you use as a webserver?20:42
notmorganfungi: ++20:42
dimssdague : mod_ratelimit ?20:42
notmorganmtreinish: we can.20:43
mtreinishand you're on your own if you decide to use eventlet as the server20:43
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dimsmtreinish : yep20:43
notmorganmtreinish: but regardless a clear message should be sent on how this is expected to work20:43
sdaguemtreinish: typically rate limitting for API services isn't just connects20:43
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dhellmannyeah, doesn't it have to be user- or project-aware?20:43
notmorganand this should be consistent across openstack - for pure connections, mod_ratelimit is good20:43
sdagueat least it wasn't in the toy implementation, or turnstile (which was Vek)20:43
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flaper87I've heard different opinions on this but I believe the general consensus among those opinions is that we shouldn't do it ourselves but instead let balancers/http servers do it.20:43
notmorganbut for other things we should have a clear direction: this is what is looks like in openstack20:44
flaper87This might be an issue for some projects, of course20:44
amrithsdague, as I said in email, one thought I had a couple of months ago was to have the delimiter project cover this. Looking at the history, Jay didn't like that idea.20:44
fungiyeah, we've (vmt) traditionally punted rate limiter shortcomings to needing documentation/pointers to separate solutions20:44
sdaguebecause not every METHOD /PATH are the same cost20:44
notmorganbecause this is something that should be absolutely consistent in style across openstack (even if some things are more heavily limited than others)20:44
notmorgansdague: so the real issue here is going to be IPC. and house keeping. imo20:44
notmorgananyone can implement (toy or otherwise a rate limiter)20:45
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sdaguedhellmann: it would only need to be project aware in having regex paths + METHODS ... which is basically what turnstile does actually20:45
notmorganthough i think the richness of nginx/apache/etc to specify per-path matching is going to be the right way20:45
sdagueit was more or less the memcache cluster version of the toy limitter in nova20:45
notmorganless so about "user/project" awareness.20:45
sdagueso... I guess here is the set of questions:20:45
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notmorgansince apache, nginx, haproxy all know how to track the conections20:45
dhellmannsdague : so the question is how to get people to work on it?20:45
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sdague1) is it important that we have a consistent thing here?20:46
sdague2) is it acceptable to be documentation20:46
sdague3) is anyone interested in working in this space?20:46
notmorgan1) I say absolutely to.20:46
dhellmann1) yes 2) maybe 3) no myself20:46
notmorgan2) probably.20:46
flaper871) yes 2) sure 3) not me20:46
notmorgan3) if i have time, I'll contribute20:46
johnthetubaguyI think it would be good to be consistent about how the API users sees they are rate limited, and that might be documentation(?)20:46
notmorganbut i can't write / doc / code it all on my own.20:46
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dhellmannI could also see it being helpful to build something that's aware of our API and user definition, though it seems like it wouldn't be too hard to make it generic.20:47
sdaguedhellmann: yeh, honestly, I think this could absolutely be pretty generic20:47
dhellmannbecause if we build it, then we can include it in our interop testing20:47
dims1) yes 2) yes 3) no20:47
mtreinish1. yes, 2. I think so, 3. someone is always willing to work on something20:47
sdaguemtreinish: I would argue with your answer on 320:47
dhellmannmtreinish : I know a lot of counter examples to #320:48
sdaguedhellmann: ++20:48
annegentlesdague: 1) I don't think it's as important because large cloud providers already solved it in ways that make sense to their ops teams and with the resources they have.20:48
dhellmannsdague : is this the first example of the TC saying "we want X to exist, someone please make that"?20:48
sdagueannegentle: so every new cloud has to solve it for themselves?20:48
amrithannegentle makes an interesting point.20:48
annegentle2) documentation can be generic as http://developer.openstack.org/api-guide/compute/limits.html is already20:48
mtreinishheh, fair enough. I didn't mean to imply we ask and they show up. I meant more people pick weird things to work on and find interesting20:49
jrollsomeone has done this before, but it's in java: http://www.openrepose.org/20:49
annegentle3) there are many unsolved problems in OpenStack I don't think we would prioritize this one over others?20:49
dimsannegentle : Amen20:49
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notmorgansdague: we have documentation being proposed in one of the projects that covers a lot of this20:49
dhellmannmtreinish : that I agree with.20:49
edleafeannegentle: especially when solutions already exist20:49
notmorgani think keystone maybe?20:49
notmorganwe can probably adapt it20:49
notmorganmore globally20:49
johnthetubaguyso I don't think we should create a rate limiter, but I think we should help our users with rate limiting20:49
annegentlesdague: they do now, and docs would be the biggest help since there are myriad considerations20:49
ttxI'm with johnthetubaguy20:49
sdaguejohnthetubaguy: yeh, that is probably the best path forward20:50
annegentlejohnthetubaguy: yeah, that's my sentiment as well20:50
ttxProduce doc on how to solve rate limiting consistently20:50
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flaper87And we should probably start by asking the OPs team how they do it20:50
johnthetubaguythat might be more effort than building one, but I think our users will be happier afterwards!20:50
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annegentleflaper87: yep that thread is started20:50
sdagueso... the seeds we have is keystone is writing up approaches based on apache, which should be applicable across the board, we start there?20:50
sdagueflaper87: see the link I posted20:50
ttxIt feels like something that could be driven from the ops side20:50
* flaper87 scrolls back20:50
dimssdague : sounds like a good plan20:50
johnthetubaguysdague: I like the apache base idea20:50
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flaper87my bad, missed it20:51
ttxsdague: yes, that's the right start20:51
fungii think some members of the security project team may also be useful resources for collaboration on protective rate limiting for openstack rest apis20:51
sdaguenotmorgan: could you get into that thread and speak up about docs being built on the keystone side?20:51
dhellmannsdague : ++20:51
dhellmannfungi : ++20:51
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fungii know there's been some exploration in the space from their end20:51
ttxfungi: yes they mentioned several options over time in OSSNs20:51
dimsfungi : +120:51
sdagueok, so I think we'll be agreed that the ops thread should probably be the right place to keep this conversation going20:52
sdagueand that as the TC we feel it's important there is some standard story here for folks20:52
flaper87sdague: yes20:52
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sdagueand we'll see if we can convince the keystone folks to solve it in docs for the rest of us? :)20:52
notmorgansdague: i'm ting to find it20:53
notmorganit's actually a review20:53
flaper87yup, and we should collect the output of that thread and document it somewhere20:53
notmorganbut it's hiding somewhere20:53
flaper87and notmorgan will do everything here20:53
ttxnotmorgan: you have 5 minutes for your topic if you think it's sufficient20:53
flaper87ttx: he's documenting the rate limit stuff... don't interrupt20:53
notmorganttx: it's easy topic20:53
ttxflaper87: I counted 2 minutes for that20:53
flaper87last famous words20:54
flaper87ttx: oh, ok20:54
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notmorgan#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326152/20:54
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notmorganso we've seen changes go in to install config files with stup20:54
notmorgan#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-June/097123.html20:55
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notmorganbasically, we, as the TC (imo) need to step in here and say explicitly "these are not data files we support" or "we should support, and do this with your data files for config"20:55
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notmorgani am in the camp personally of "don't install config with setup"20:55
notmorganwe can have a tool to install it for you20:55
notmorganfor venv, etc20:55
notmorganbut it shouldn't be "setup", pbr, etc20:56
* flaper87 is in that camp too20:56
notmorganspecifically lifeless and mordred's responses to the thread20:56
ttxthese are not the data files you're looking for20:56
notmorgani'll propose a governance guideline to make sure we, as openstack, say "this is infact what data is"20:56
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dhellmannyeah, the fact that it doesn't work consistently and correctly means we shouldn't do it, at least for now20:56
notmorganwhen you use data-files.20:56
notmorganwe can change that later20:56
mtreinishnotmorgan: what about something like cli tooling that depends on data files?20:56
notmorganbut i want this to be explicitly consistent20:56
notmorganmtreinish: "data files" are not "config files"20:56
notmorganwe can have data files.20:57
dhellmannwe have the config generator for creating config files20:57
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* jroll is also in the notmorgan camp fwiw20:57
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notmorganbut config files themselves should not be installed with pip/setup in /etc /usr/stc/ usr/share... etc20:57
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notmorganthat isn't our call and it ends up inconsistent.20:57
sdaguenotmorgan: so, curiously, we've got a big giant upgrade problem with privsep because of this stance20:57
notmorgandepending on wheel, etc.20:57
mtreinishdhellmann: well except the oslo config generator depends on a config file :)20:57
sdaguewhich blocked os-brick 1.420:57
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notmorgansdague: i think we should have a clear tool for this. heck, i'll help write one20:57
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dhellmannmtreinish : that config file can actually be delivered as a data file in the app, because it's data and not meant to be edited by the user20:58
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ttxshould that be a cross-project spec ?20:59
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sdagueso while I understand the concerns about python managing etc files, because it does so terribly20:59
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ttxFeels more appropriate than a TC resolution20:59
notmorgansdague: uhm. that is a case where frankly upgrade can't be "pip install"20:59
fungii strongly agree that non-configuration should not be expected in /etc20:59
flaper87ttx: ++20:59
fungiwith my long-time sysadmin hat on20:59
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ttxbottom-up rather than top-down20:59
notmorganfungi: wht about configuration being installed from pip?20:59
sdaguenotmorgan: so ... we've architected to break CD for everyone, which is what you are saying?20:59
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dhellmannfungi : I think the point here is rather that we shouldn't try to ship config files to be installed with python packages21:00
notmorgansdague: basically we need to work another way to do that21:00
funginotmorgan: pip doesn't know how, so no problem there?21:00
notmorganfungi: ++21:00
flaper87time check21:00
fungiinstall sample configurations as data21:00
ttxfeels like we'll need to continue this one on the thread21:00
notmorgansdague: please respond to the thread i linked, and we'll need to continue21:00
notmorgani didn't expect this to be resolved this week21:00
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notmorgani just wanted to flag it for attention :)21:00
fungidistros already commonly do this when there is no sane out-of-the-box default config21:00
dimsnotmorgan : ack. need to think more about it21:00
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ttxlet's continue this on eon thread21:01
amriththanks ttx21:01
ttxThanks everyone21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 14 21:01:16 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-06-14-20.01.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-06-14-20.01.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-06-14-20.01.log.html21:01
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notmorgansdague: and i hear your concern, i want to find a way to work through that but i just don't trust pip [or anything] to install sudo rules for example :)21:01
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notmorganshort of a distro package [that is out of our hands]21:01
sdaguenotmorgan: sure, I'm fine with that21:01
oneswigYou there Blair?21:02
bIairohi oneswig21:02
fungii _maybe_ trust my distro to do itt21:02
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notmorgansdague: so i'll think about how to handle these cases as well :)21:02
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oneswigbIairo: another week, another nick!21:02
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b1airocan't get onto my znc bouncer this morning :-(21:02
sdaguenotmorgan: taking to -dev21:02
b1airo@startmeeting scientific-wg21:03
b1airo#startmeeting scientific-wg21:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 14 21:03:24 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is b1airo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg'21:03
b1airo#chair oneswig21:03
openstackCurrent chairs: b1airo oneswig21:03
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oneswig#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_working_group#IRC_Meeting_June_14th_2016 This week's agenda21:03
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oneswigHello everyone21:04
oneswig#topic roll-call21:04
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b1airodoes pasting the agenda work oneswig ? let's find out...21:04
b1airoIRC Meeting June 14th 201621:04
b1airo2016-06-14 2100 UTC in channel #openstack-meeting21:04
b1airoNew items:21:04
b1airoScientific OpenStack at Supercomputing 2016. OpenStack activities related to HPC and research computing at the annual Supercomputing conference in Salt Lake City in November.21:04
b1airoPanel session on OpenStack for HPC & research computing21:04
b1airoProposal for a Birds-of-Feather session21:04
b1airoWhite paper on OpenStack and HPC21:04
b1airoCarried over from last meeting:21:04
b1airoBare metal21:04
b1airoFeature development for Newton cycle21:04
b1airoParallel filesystems21:04
b1airoLooking for a lead for this activity area21:05
b1airoAccounting and scheduling21:05
b1airoLooking for a lead for this activity area21:05
b1airoOther business21:05
oneswigYou're just in it for the line count on eavesdrop, I shall retaliate with man bash21:05
b1airobrb - child has just thrown up on floor here :-/21:05
anteaya#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_working_group#IRC_Meeting_June_14th_201621:06
anteayafor my benefit21:06
oneswigGreat, I think we are all pretty excited21:06
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oneswiganteaya: thanks21:06
oneswig#topic SC2016 activities21:06
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anteayaoneswig: welcome21:06
oneswigSo, there are at least three things that might be going on at SC related to OpenStack21:06
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oneswigThe panel session organised by Bill Boas is first on the list21:07
oneswigThe proposal for a birds-of-feather session21:07
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oneswigAnd a whitepaper on OpenStack and HPC21:08
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b1airoBill is the planned moderator for that panel isn't he oneswig ?21:08
oneswigdfflanders: will there be a booth?21:08
oneswigDo you have a link to it on sc.org?21:08
dfflanderswe are trying to piggy back with someone who has one, we couldn't get one21:09
dfflandershoping UTSA might be able to help21:09
rbuddenPSC will have a booth, but I’m not sure I’m in the position to volunteer it ;)21:09
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rbuddenI can always ask21:10
jmloweWe have a large booth, grandfathered in from the late 90's, should I see if we can accommodate?21:10
b1airoshould try and have openstack stuff at every booth possible - tom has *lots* of stickers21:10
dfflandersthank you rbudden21:10
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dfflandersyes please jmlowe21:10
jonmillsNASA always has a booth.  but also, I don't have authority to volunteer it.  but I can ask...21:10
dfflandersif anything we would like slots at booths to do mini trainings or the like?21:11
rbuddenrbudden: I’m sure we wouldn’t mind stickers, etc. and I will ask about the booth as well21:11
dfflandersthank you jonmills21:11
rbuddenif we know more about what we’d like to do with a portion of booth space, etc. that would be good to know in advance21:11
dfflandersoptions: stickers > whitepapers > banners > mini trainings21:12
jmloweI can volunteer room for stickers and other materials without asking, posters and displays will require checking21:12
oneswigdfflanders: do you envisage openstack staff assisting with attending the 'mini-booth'21:12
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jmlowebooth space for demos is a go as well21:12
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dfflandersyes myself and Chris will be in attendance21:12
jmlowejust need to schedule the space for a few sessions21:13
oneswiglet me capture some actions21:13
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oneswig#action jonmills jmlowe rbudden are at orgs that will have booths, enquire on the possibility of including some OpenStack content21:14
oneswig#action dfflanders also investigate UTSA booth?21:15
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oneswig#topic SC2016 BoF21:16
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b1airowe sometimes jump on another aussie booth (e.g. with NCI), but i'm not across those plans yet21:16
priteauKate Keahey asked me to tell you that she will be happy to help organize activities at SC1621:16
priteauI assume we will have some Chameleon presence as well on TACC's booth21:16
oneswigpriteau: thanks!  Is that through Chicago, Argonne or ?21:16
b1airogreat thanks priteau - should we loop you into any such comms too?21:17
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priteaub1airo: Rather Kate directly21:17
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oneswigPerhaps we form a distribution list including the SC participants here and Kate21:19
priteauoneswig: We often have activities through the DoE booth21:19
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oneswigpriteau: that's another interesting path, there are Openstack activities underway across the DoE21:20
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oneswigdfflanders: are you the point of contact in the Foundation for SC planning?21:21
dfflandersyes that's fine as is Denise21:21
oneswig#action oneswig to kick off an email distribution for SC planning discussions21:23
oneswigI'll make sure you're all on it...21:23
oneswigOK, Birds-of-a-feather?21:23
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oneswigjonmills: your previous BoF was more general but do we feel the scope can/should be narrowed to OpenStack?21:24
jonmillsYeah, I'm in agreement.  Last year we were trying to sneak in under the radar.21:25
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