Tuesday, 2016-06-21

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hongbin#startmeeting zun03:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 21 03:00:12 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.03:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.03:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'zun'03:00
hongbin#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2016-06-21_0300_UTC Today's agenda03:00
hongbin#topic Roll Call03:00
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mkraiMadhuri Kumari03:00
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WenzhiWenzhi Yu03:00
namrataNamrata Sitlani03:00
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gcbI'm ChangBo Guo (aka gcb), from EasyStack, have been working in oslo and Nova, would like to contribute in project zun03:01
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yanyanhuwelcome, gcb :)03:01
feiskyHello, everyone03:01
flwanggcb: hey03:01
hongbinThanks for joining the meeting mkrai Wenzhi namrata eliqiao gcb haiwei_ yanyanhu feisky flwang03:01
hongbinWelcome gcb03:02
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hongbin#topic Announcements03:02
flwanghongbin: gcb and i were collogues when we worked for ibm03:02
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hongbinflwang: I see03:02
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hongbinI have no annoucement03:02
hongbinAny annoucement from our team member?03:02
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hongbin#topic Review Action Items03:03
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eliqiaowelcome gcb03:03
hongbinhongbin create an etherpad as a draft of Zun design spec (DONE)03:03
Wenzhiflwang: I am also a IBMer, and you introduced OpenStack to me in 2013, haha:)03:03
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-design-spec03:03
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hongbinI will continue work on the etherpad above03:04
hongbinFeel free to write down your notes and comments there03:04
hongbin#topic Architecture design03:04
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hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-architecture-decisions03:04
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hongbinsudipto: created this etherpad to collaborate on the architecture design03:05
hongbinI plan to spend about 10 - 15 minutes for everyone to comment on it03:05
hongbinor we can do it as homework03:06
eliqiaohongbin: do you need us to input it now?03:06
hongbineliqiao: yes please03:06
sudiptohongbin, i guess offline is better, since this would need people to think through?03:06
hongbinsudipto: ack03:06
hongbinoffline everyone?03:07
hongbinor online for a few minutes?03:07
mkraioffline is better03:07
hongbin(no response, I guess folks are reading the etherpad...)03:07
eliqiao+1 for offline03:08
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hongbinOK. Then let's advance topic03:08
hongbin#topic API design03:08
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hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/api-design The BP03:08
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/containers-service-api 2013 Etherpad03:08
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-containers-service-api 2014 Etherpad03:08
hongbinmkrai: could you lead the discussion of hte API design?03:08
mkraiYes sure hongbin03:09
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mkraiAs you can see the page explains the endpoint for each resource in Zun03:09
mkraiAnd resource representation in Zun03:09
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mkraiWe have collected samples from K8s, docker-compose, rocket03:10
mkraiAnd tried to create one for us.03:10
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-containers-service-api The latest etherpad03:10
mkraiIf everyone is ok with representation, we can start creating a spec for it.03:11
sudiptoThere's one more the atomic container creation - i guess we need to think about a group of containers too?03:11
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mkraisudipto: That would be some advance operation?03:12
hongbinsudipto: I think we can start with basic first, we are free to add support for group of containers later03:12
sudiptohongbin, ok03:13
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yanyanhuagree with mkrai that looks like an advanced operation03:13
mkrai+1 hongbin03:13
mkraiEveryone agrees to submit a spec now?03:13
mkraiEveryone can always write their input on ps03:14
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eliqiao+1 for spec reviewing03:14
haiwei_yes, there should be a spec I think03:14
hongbinmkrai: Here is what I think03:14
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hongbinmkrai: We need to identify the list of container runtimes we want to support first03:14
mkraihongbin: ack03:15
hongbinmkrai: Then, evaluate if the APIs listed there is supported by which runtime or not03:15
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sudiptohongbin, +103:15
hongbinIf some APIs are not supported well by most of the runtimes/COEs, then we need to remove it03:15
eliqiaomkrai: please consider use async API calls at the begining.03:16
sudiptoeliqiao, +103:16
mkraihongbin: Why can't we have them?03:16
mkraiCalls will be made based on the type of container runtime03:16
hongbinmkrai: No, my point is to identify which technology we want to support first03:17
sudiptobasically, i think we need to define how the APIs broadly apply for various runtimes. Like let's say - what happens when you want to use the same APIs for a POD creation? Or for that matter a VM creation for Hyper kind of scenarios?03:17
mkraiOk. I will collect information on this too.03:17
hongbinHere is the list in the etherpad03:18
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hongbin1. Raw docker03:18
hongbin2. Kubernetes03:18
hongbin3. Rocket03:18
hongbin4. Hyper03:18
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hongbinEveryone is happy with this list?03:18
sudiptoDid anyone from Hyper join?03:19
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mkraihongbin: K8s is a container management tool03:19
feiskyY, I'm from hyper03:19
sudiptofeisky, hello! Glad to have you hear!03:19
feiskyHyper supports all apis listed.03:19
hongbinmkrai: Yes, then we can debate that03:19
mkraiSo why are we counting as runtime tool03:19
mkraiYes please hongbin. I would like to hear03:20
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hongbinI don't have position on supporting k8s or not03:20
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hongbinBut I want to have a discussion within the team03:20
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yanyanhumaybe just start from docker/lxc at the beginning?03:21
hongbinThat is Zun should support container runtimes only? or consider k8s as well?03:21
yanyanhuthe most common used ones03:21
mkraiIMO integrating with COEs is an advance feature03:21
sudiptoyeah, if zun has to support container runtimes only then we are creating a wrapper around docker and eventually competing with the COEs?03:21
mkraiNot similar to docker, hyper or rocket03:21
haiwei_agree with mkrai03:22
flwangsudipto: agree03:22
mkraisudipto: I am afraid, we will end up with this03:22
yanyanhuwe will support k8s in future with a driver/plugin, but maybe not now I think03:22
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flwangwe still haven't got a conclusion how to place Zun03:22
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flwangis it another COE or we want to place it on top of Magnum03:23
Wenzhiagree yanyanhu03:23
hongbinFrom my point of view, it is hard to compete with k8s, if we can avoid that, I prefer to avoid03:23
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sudiptoflwang, that's exactly my confusion too. I think we have to get that sorted first.03:23
sudiptoor if it's clearer to other folks, maybe we should just talk about it.03:24
flwangsudipto: we're on same page :D03:24
haiwei_why does Zun compete with k8s?03:24
yanyanhutalking with magnum/backend COEs is option, but not the only way I think03:24
flwangnot really03:24
mkraihongbin: I completely agree that we shouldn't compete with k8s or swarm or any COEs.03:24
Wenzhiwe must be careful when designing Zun to avoid duplication/competition with COEs/Nova03:24
mkraiThat is not our motive anyhow.03:24
flwangif Zun can talk with container runtime directly03:25
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flwangjust like other COE03:25
flwangthen that means Zun have to do all the things Nova has done, if you want a production service, not a toy03:25
yanyanhuthat is Zun for I think :)03:25
mkraiIMO Zun should support all basic operations, and for advances feature it can depend on other COEs03:26
yanyanhucontainer management service in openstack03:26
flwanglike AZ, aggregate, cell, server group, in other words, you have to manage host03:26
yanyanhumkrai, +103:26
sudiptoflwang, exactly so - there's a lot of work which has already been done and we would be duplicating stuff...eventually that would probably lead to us falling short of others...03:26
flwangif we put it on Magnum, then the host is not provided by cloud provider, but the VM's within the user's tenant03:26
flwangjust like  AWS ECS did03:27
yanyanhuI think we can borrow/leverage some existing design of nova to support those functionalities, like host management, scheduling. But as an individual container management service, Zun need them03:27
mkraiOk so hongbin everyone, I think first we should make clear between team that we want to compete with other COEs(include all advance features) or not(integrate with COEs)03:27
mkraiThen only we can decide our design03:28
sudiptomkrai, +103:28
hongbinI think the question is not only if we should compete with k8s or not03:28
flwangi know we're trying to touch some shadow corner, but we have to face it :D03:28
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hongbinThe critical part is if we competes with k8s, what is hte points that differentiate Zun with k8s03:29
haiwei_then we go back to zun's use case03:29
sudiptoI think there's a lack of consensus here. I think creating a wrapper does  mean competing with other COEs. That's an architectural decision. Creating the API would be an engineering challenge that should follow after that.03:29
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yanyanhuI don't think this is just for competing with other COEs03:30
yanyanhuwe are building a container management service in openstack03:30
sudiptoyanyanhu, and what is the greater implications of it? COntainers are not like VMs, so you would most likely build a PaaS on top.03:31
mkraiIt will be very premature to decide now. My opinion is to start with basic operations which anyhow we are going to support in any case.03:31
sudiptoOr do you want zun to become something like solum?03:31
yanyanhusudipto, I think that depends on how user use container03:31
yanyanhumaybe that want to use it as VM, e.g. a lxc container03:31
yanyanhumaybe they want to build PaaS solution based on dockers03:32
Wenzhiseems if Zun does not compete with COEs/Nova, then the scope of Zun would be quite small03:32
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yanyanhubut maybe we shouldn't strictly limit our work scope on PaaS layer03:32
hongbinYes, there is a tradeoff03:32
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yanyanhuWenzhi, +103:33
sudiptoyanyanhu, if you want to build a PaaS solution using docker, the customer might want to choose a far more matured COE like Kubernetes... unless we spend day and night and re-invent the same code in Python in OpenStack.03:33
flwangWenzhi: that's not correct03:33
mkrai+1 sudipto03:33
yanyanhusudipto, you're right. That is because there is no native container management service in openstack in last two years03:33
flwangwe can do the similar stuff like ECS, but let magnum do the underhood things03:33
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yanyanhuso Kubernetes became the best choice for user03:34
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Wenzhiflwang: seems reasonable03:34
sudiptoflwang, i think the magnum integration is a key.03:34
flwangsudipto: we're on the same page again :D03:35
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hongbinYes, I think Magnum integration is the long-term direction03:35
Wenzhidoes it make sense if we design Zun as an OpenStack native container orchestration engine, compete with k8s/swarm...?03:35
sudiptoflwang, :) i guess, most of such points are the ones to discuss in the architecture decision link that hongbin pasted above.03:35
yanyanhuif we build Zun upon existing COEs as just a wrapper, IMHO, the meaning of this project is rally limited03:36
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-architecture-decisions03:36
hongbinyanyanhu: good point03:36
sudiptoIt's a trade off really, whether we want to create just a wrapper or list down - some value adds that we think we can give.03:36
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* sudipto calls for a SWOT analysis. :)03:37
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hongbinHere is what I think. It might be OK to have a small overlay with COEs and NOva03:37
hongbinBut we need to find the points that we are strong at03:37
yanyanhusudipto, agree that we need a tradeoff there. I just feel using COEs as backend is an option for Zun and we can support it. But we'd better don't limit us to it03:38
hongbinwhich could address use cases that other COEs cannot address03:38
sudiptoyeah the COE competition is alright, as long as we : 1. don't end up re-inventing everything. 2. can bring in strong value adds from the openstack ecosystem.03:38
yanyanhuhongbin, +103:38
yanyanhuespecially in openstack environment03:38
yanyanhuwhat is our differentiation from other COEs03:38
Wenzhihongbin: then how about make Zun a COE?03:38
mkraihongbin: +103:39
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yanyanhue.g. better integration with openstack SDN(neutron/kuryr)03:39
mkraiWenzhi: Its too early to say that :D03:39
yanyanhuor openstack SDS03:39
hongbinyes, network and storage is hte selling points?03:39
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mkraikeystone also03:40
sudiptoif we are going in the direction of COEs - then i guess there are much more things to consider - right from whether mysql is the way to go or not and that's a rabbit hole.03:40
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sudiptoso i guess let's debate on the etherpad offline?03:41
yanyanhuyes, offline debate is better03:41
yanyanhuonly 20 minutes left for meeting...03:41
mkraiEtherpad link?03:41
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-architecture-decisions03:41
mkraiThanks hongbin03:42
hongbinmkrai: You have anything else for the API design, or advance topic?03:42
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mkraiNo that's all.03:42
mkraiVery good discussion03:42
hongbinmkrai: Thanks Madhuri for leading the API design efforts03:43
hongbin#topic Nova integration03:43
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hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/nova-integration The BP03:43
hongbinThis is the last item in hte agenda03:43
hongbinanyone here is working on the nova integration?03:44
mkraiI guess Aditi is not here03:44
sudiptolike it or hate it, i guess it might be a good starting point.03:44
mkraiI like it sudipto personally :)03:45
hongbinsudipto: Yes, you have idea on how to implement it?03:45
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flwanghongbin: i think we just need to follow how nova integrate with Ironic03:45
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hongbinflwang: OK, if we follows what nova-ironic integration, here is what it will look like03:46
sudiptohongbin, again that boils down to what we want to achieve. I thought we wanted something like nova-docker here?03:46
hongbin1. THere is a Zun virt driver for nova03:46
namrataI want to work in it03:46
hongbin2. The Zun virt driver will talk to the Zun Rest API03:46
hongbin3. The Zun service will do the real work on processing the request03:47
hongbinnamrata: sure, please feel free to ping the BP owner03:47
mkraihongbin: I just have once concern03:47
sudiptohongbin, waiting for the 4th point....03:47
mkraiI am not sure but my understanding is correct or not. Does Ironic use Nova scheduler?03:48
hongbinsudipto: I finished my point :)03:48
hongbinmkrai: yes03:48
hongbinmkrai: Here is how it works03:48
mkraiSo what about our scheduler?03:48
sudiptomkrai, it does but it wants to split out.03:48
sudiptohongbin, so the virt_driver is very analogus to the nova-docker driver?03:48
eliqiaomkrai: then we don't need scheduler ourselves.03:48
hongbinI guess nova will pull Ironic to get a list of hosts03:48
mkraiWe will also have scheduler so implementation will be different03:49
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mkraieliqiao: Is it?03:49
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sudiptobtw nova has some lxc support as well.03:49
hongbinsudipto: Not really, the Zun virt driver might be just a proxy to the Zun rest API03:49
sudiptohongbin, ok03:50
hongbineliqiao: No, we still need a schduler03:50
eliqiaohongbin: for what?03:50
mkraieliqiao: IMO we need a scheduler03:50
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hongbineliqiao: Here is my understanding03:50
hongbineliqiao: nova schedule the request to a nova-compute03:51
hongbineliqiao: the nova-compute forward it the the virt driver03:51
eliqiaohongbin: ,oh, I get03:51
eliqiaohongbin: I see.03:51
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hongbin#topic Open Discussion03:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)"03:51
mkraihongbin: Sorry I didn't get, where comes our scheduler?03:52
sudiptomkrai, hongbin i too am a bit confused now.03:52
hongbinwell I might be wrong03:52
sudiptowhen you say zun virt_driver - i guess you mean a compute driver?03:52
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eliqiaomkrai: nova-api -> nova-cond -> nova->scheduler -> nova-cpu -> zun-virt -> zun-api -> zun-cond -> zun-scheduler -> zun-agent03:53
hongbinZun scheduler is for scheduling request from Zun api to a host03:53
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hongbineliqiao: I guess you are correct03:53
mkraiwhat is the use of host selected by nova?03:53
eliqiaoso long a call stack :(03:53
mkraiI understand the flow eliqiao03:53
sudiptothat does not look right03:54
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mkraiAgree sudipto03:54
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sudiptoonce you have reached nova-cpu - why do you want to go back to the API layer?03:54
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flwangas for the flow you mentioned above, we need to figure out the host managed by nova and zun03:54
eliqiaosudipto: that's what ironic does03:55
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eliqiaonova-cpu only does the request forwarding.03:55
hongbinbasically my understanding is there are two level of scheduling03:55
sudiptoeliqiao, ah now i get the point.03:55
eliqiaoacutally, 1st (nova-scheduler) doesn't nothing help at all.03:56
sudiptoeliqiao, however, ironic does baremetal - which is OK to be slow - will it be alright to do this for a container?03:56
mkraisudipto: I don't think so03:56
mkraiWe should have different implementation for containers03:56
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hongbinHowever, we cannot change nova code, that is the limitation03:57
sudiptoi guess this also is an etherpad discussion then?03:57
* sudipto observes the clock.03:57
mkraiAnd then it also depends on nova community for acceptance with different implementation03:57
hongbinok, I will create another etherpad later03:57
Wenzhitime is running out...03:57
mkrai+1 sudipto03:57
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sudiptook i think we had a good open discussion today. I think defining the project scope and the right scope is tougher but at the same time important to have a strong base.03:58
sudiptobut i am sure we will get there!03:58
yanyanhu+1 sudipto03:58
hongbinYes, the homework for everyone is to review the therpads above03:58
yanyanhudebating is not bad thing :)03:59
mkraiIt is always helpful03:59
mkraiThanks everyone for joininh03:59
hongbinAll, thanks for joining the meeting03:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"03:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 21 03:59:34 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)03:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-06-21-03.00.html03:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-06-21-03.00.txt03:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2016/zun.2016-06-21-03.00.log.html03:59
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sudiptomkrai, you are not in the openstack-zun channel?04:03
mkraisudipto: joining04:03
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sudiptomkrai, ok :)04:04
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loquacitieshi everyone, kicking off the docs install guide meeting in a few minutes05:57
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AJaegergreat, loquacities !05:59
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loquacities#startmeeting docinstallteam06:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 21 06:01:05 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is loquacities. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.06:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.06:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)"06:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'docinstallteam'06:01
loquacitieshi, who's here?06:01
strigaziSpyros Trigazi (magnum)06:01
loquacitieshi strigazi06:01
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AJaegerwelcome, strigazi06:02
loquacitiesanyone else?06:03
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loquacitiesah ha!06:05
loquacitiesok, i think we can call that a quorum ;)06:05
loquacitiesi don't have very much to go through06:05
AJaegerI would like to discuss the index page06:05
loquacities#topic Completed projects06:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Completed projects (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)"06:05
loquacities#info Orchestration, Trove, and Zaqar are done06:05
loquacitiesAJaeger: yep, that's on the agenda :)06:05
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loquacitiesand it seems swift is on the way, too06:06
AJaegerhttp://docs.openstack.org/project-install-guide/database/draft/ and http://docs.openstack.org/project-install-guide/orchestration/draft/ are published06:06
loquacitiesyeah, real progress :)06:06
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AJaegerZaqar is ready, just needs one change to merge (any!) and afterwards gets published. Infra change just merged06:06
AJaegerswift change is under review06:07
loquacitiesexcellent :)06:07
loquacities#topic Draft index page06:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Draft index page (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)"06:07
loquacities#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/33170406:07
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loquacitiesso i think we need to discuss how we want this to look06:07
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AJaegerand there are changes for magnum and manila for review06:08
loquacitiespersonally, i like AJaeger's idea of having them all in one index06:08
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katomo+1 for all in one index06:08
AJaegerMy idea is basically: Have one index page per version and link to that from the front pages06:08
loquacitiesyep, i think that's the best06:08
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strigaziI like it too06:09
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AJaegerSo, one index that looks like what we have today: It includes *all* Install material: Keystone, Glance, trove, zaqar, etc.06:09
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loquacitiesok, to petr's other point about calling the project-specific guides 'tutorials' as well, i didn't really like that idea06:09
AJaegerAnd that one is version dependent - so should now go into draft directory06:09
AJaegerloquacities: there's some consistency with his proposal06:09
loquacitiesyep, and be published for newton06:09
loquacitiesyeah, i guess so06:10
loquacitiesbut these really are install guides in the true sense, i think06:10
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loquacitieswhereas we would never expect someone to run a production cloud using the method in the original book06:10
AJaegerFor me those are on the same level...06:10
AJaegerAt least with current content06:10
loquacitieshrm, ok06:11
loquacitiesi guess we really don't expect someone to run a production cloud using *any* manual install, really06:11
loquacitiesnow i think about it ...06:11
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AJaegerI agree06:11
strigaziI think these manual are like a guide on what are the most important configs and what you should adapt on your solution06:12
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loquacitiesok, so the index page would have the usual manual install 'tutorials', and then a link to the project-specific index?06:13
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AJaegerloquacities: I would even add links to the chapters of the normal install-guide: Keystone, Glance etc.06:13
AJaegerHaving all of them together in one place gives the illusion of one guide...06:13
loquacitiesoh, that's a good idea06:13
AJaegerand then we would only link to that index page....06:14
loquacitiesyeah, i think we need that06:14
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katomoAJaeger: +106:14
loquacitiesit would definitely be easier for linkign06:14
AJaegerI guess we need a few iterations on that...06:14
loquacitiesyeah, i think so06:14
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AJaegerThen each chapter can say at the end: Go back to this central index page ...06:14
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loquacitiesok, i might ping petr with the log of this chat, so he's aware06:15
loquacities#action loquacities to ping petr regarding https://review.openstack.org/#/c/33170406:15
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strigaziOpen discussion?06:18
loquacitiesyep, looks like it's time to move on06:18
loquacities#topic open discussion06:19
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: docinstallteam)"06:19
strigaziI want to share our WIP https://review.openstack.org/#/c/315165/06:19
katomohttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/326190/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/326193/ need approval :)06:19
loquacitiesstrigazi: yay!06:20
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loquacitiesstrigazi: did you see i updated the steps in the contributor guide? i'd like your feedback06:20
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AJaegerloquacities: I have already blessed katomo's changes - could you review them as well, please?06:20
loquacitiesyep, will do now06:20
AJaegerstrigazi: great, thanks06:21
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katomostrigazi: looks great work06:21
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strigazione question06:21
strigaziheat has a file for every distro06:21
strigazicould we have a file setup-db.rst and include it in all files?06:22
AJaegerstrigazi: see how I've done it for trove06:22
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AJaegerstrigazi: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330540/3/install-guide/source/common_prerequisites.txt06:23
AJaegerand then an include of it in several places06:23
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katomoyeah, good practice. let's add it to cokkiecutter :)06:24
AJaegerstrigazi: if that's a model to follow, changes for the cookiecutter are welcome;)06:24
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strigaziThat's what I was thinking06:24
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loquacitiesgood plan06:24
loquacitiesok, any other items?06:25
strigazioff topic question for andreas06:25
AJaegerwho will do the change for the cookiecutter? strigazi do you want to do it? Or katomo ?06:25
katomonothing from me today06:25
strigaziI'll do it06:25
AJaegerthanks, strigazi.06:25
katomostrigazi, thanks.06:25
AJaegerstrigazi: ask, it's open discussion ;)06:25
strigaziAJaeger: suse packages are drawn from openstack-packages?06:26
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AJaegerstrigazi: yes, AFAIK.06:26
strigazimagnum has suse packages for mitaka, these are synced from openstack-pakcages/magnum?06:26
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* AJaeger just checks06:27
strigaziand can I build suse packages form deloean?06:27
loquacitiesdelorean is fedora, isn't it?06:28
AJaegerthere are magnum packages published at http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/Cloud:/OpenStack:/Master/openSUSE_Leap_42.1/noarch/06:28
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AJaegerand http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/Cloud:/OpenStack:/Mitaka/openSUSE_Leap_42.1/06:28
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AJaegersources at https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/Cloud:OpenStack:Master/openstack-magnum06:29
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AJaegerstrigazi: feel free to ping me if you need more pointers and I get you in contact with our packging experts06:29
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strigaziSince there are recent builds, that will do06:30
loquacitiescool, anything else?06:30
strigaziAJaeger: thanks06:30
AJaegerstrigazi: thanks for documenting magnum!06:31
AJaegerloquacities: nothing from my side for today06:31
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strigaziI'm good06:32
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loquacitiesok, i think we're done06:32
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"06:32
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 21 06:32:45 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)06:32
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-06-21-06.01.html06:32
loquacitiesthanks guys :)06:32
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-06-21-06.01.txt06:32
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docinstallteam/2016/docinstallteam.2016-06-21-06.01.log.html06:32
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katomothanks, strigazi, loquacities, AJaeger06:33
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yuval#startmeeting Smaug09:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 21 09:01:11 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yuval. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.09:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.09:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Smaug)"09:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'smaug'09:01
yuvalHello everybody09:01
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zhangshuaihello yuval09:01
oshidoshiSaggi is out today, Yuval has agreed to take over09:01
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yuval#topic Smaug Big-Tent09:02
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*** openstack changes topic to "Smaug Big-Tent (Meeting topic: Smaug)"09:02
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yuvalWell, as you all know, Smaug was admitted as a Big-Tent09:02
yuvalCongratulations, and thank you all for you hard work09:03
oshidoshiincredible work everyone!!!!09:03
yuvalThat being said, we still have more on our path09:04
yuval#topic Testing09:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Testing (Meeting topic: Smaug)"09:04
yuvalzhangshuai did very good job on fullstack tests09:04
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yuvallast week we managed to make the fullstack tests run on the jenkins check09:04
xiangxinyonggood news09:05
zhangshuaithanks for approval09:05
chenying__I think we should pay more attention to list checkpoints patch. It have block several fullstack tests.09:05
zhonghua-leezhangshuai: thanks09:05
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chenying__zhangshuai good job.09:05
yuvalplease make sure you write fullstack tests for new features, besides the normal unit tests09:05
gampelI think that we should disable the quota on the fullstack devstack , it will reach the limit soon when we add more test09:05
yuvalchenying__: yes, I'll get to that in a couple of minutes09:06
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yuvalanyone would like to add something regarding the tests?09:06
chenying__Hi eran Long time no see.09:06
gampelhi how are you ?09:07
chenying__I am fine :)09:07
yuval#topic Patches and Reviews09:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Patches and Reviews (Meeting topic: Smaug)"09:07
yuvalAs chenying__ has pointed out, the 'list_checkpoint' patch requires reviews09:07
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gampelcan you please share the link09:07
yuvalAlso, zengchen patches to the operation engine require more review09:07
yuvalgampel: sure09:08
chenying__luobing is updating this patch to fix fullstack error.09:08
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yuval#link https://review.openstack.org/31071009:08
zengchenyuval:totally agree.09:08
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chenying__yuval: Yes I think so.09:08
yuvalSo please dedicate some of your time for reviewing them09:09
xiangxinyongalso dashboard has a lots of patches which need be reviewed09:09
yuvalxiangxinyong: thanks for pointing that out09:09
xiangxinyongyuval: you are welcome09:09
yuvalAlso, if you think that some patches are high priority, add them to the Trello and mark them with a red label09:09
gampel310710 is in merge conflict09:10
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yuvalMake sure you don't submit patches with DOS endlines (\r\n) - only UNIX endlines (\n)09:10
yuvalAnything else regarding patches and reviews?09:11
zengchenyuval:will you merge your new design?09:11
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yuvalzengchen: yes, after the fullstack patches will be merged09:12
zengchenyuval:ok. good!09:12
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yuval#topic Welcome oshidoshi09:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Welcome oshidoshi (Meeting topic: Smaug)"09:12
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oshidoshioh, that's a nice topic09:13
* oshidoshi blushing09:13
yuvalI would also like to welcome oshidoshi!09:13
zhonghua-leeoshidoshi: welcome09:13
oshidoshithanks guys09:13
xiangxinyongoshidoshi: could you introduce yourself?09:13
gampelhe is also known as Eshed09:13
oshidoshiokay, Oshidoshi was a joke during the OpenStack Tokyo summit09:14
zhonghua-leegampel: oh..09:14
oshidoshinow I carry this cross on my back... hmm.. IRC09:14
xiangxinyongdo you like this name?09:14
oshidoshiwell... what can I say.. a name's a name09:14
zengchengood name!09:15
oshidoshianyways, let's move on to the next topic..?09:15
yuval#topic Launchpad Bugs09:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Launchpad Bugs (Meeting topic: Smaug)"09:15
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yuvalI started to review the launchpad bugs09:15
yuvalsome of them are very old, and might be irrelevant09:15
yuvalplease take a moment to check your old bugs09:15
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yuvaland close/update them09:16
zengchenyuval:got it.09:16
yuvalalso, if you have old patches which are no longer relevant, abandon them09:16
oshidoshiI've been doing a little review on the dashboard patches, looks like people are not looking there enough...09:17
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oshidoshiis that your way of saying "we don't like javascript"? :-D09:17
zhonghua-leehow about this patch?09:17
zhonghua-leeanyone works on it09:18
yuvalNow I recall that we said maybe to hold it a bit until the new design is merged09:18
yuvalBut the network protectable needs to enter09:19
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xiangxinyongoshidoshi: agree with you. but we love javascript. :)09:19
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gampelchenhuayi: is here ?09:19
zhonghua-leelooks no update for a long time09:20
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gampelI think that the network protection plugin is very impotent and what will drive other  to join , it is a major differentiation09:21
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chenying__As I konw He have finished the neutron plugin.09:21
yuvalchenying__: seems like it is not in the gerrit09:22
yuvalchenying__: there is only an old verion of it09:22
chenhuayi@gampel, I have finished debug the neutron plugin. now working on the patch.09:22
yuvalchenhuayi: great09:22
gampel chenhuayi:  thx excellent, :-D09:23
yuvalOk, lets move on09:23
yuval#topic Documentation09:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Documentation (Meeting topic: Smaug)"09:23
chenhuayithere will be three patchs.09:23
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yuvalBefore the big tent submission, we did some documentation effort09:23
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yuvalAfter the merge of the protection plugin new design09:24
yuvalWe'll need a guide for writing protection plugins09:24
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yuvalMeanwhile, we can create guides for protectable plugins and bank plugins09:24
zhonghua-leeyuval: +109:25
yuvalAnyone would like to take writing such guide (bank, protectable) ?09:25
yuvalit is not high priority, imo09:26
chenying__You can add these tasks to trllo.09:26
yuvalOk, I'll add them to the Trello09:26
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yuvalSo think about it09:28
zhonghua-lee"Your browser was unable to load all of Trello's resources."  :(09:28
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yuvalIt shouldn't be much work and it is low priority. I'll add to the trello, assign to yourself if you take it09:29
yuval#topic Open Discussion09:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Smaug)"09:29
yuvalAnything else you want to talk about?09:29
zhonghua-leeyuval: yeah09:29
zhonghua-leeI want to present the app backup solution here09:29
zengchenI have a question, when we use keystone client to fetch the service's endpoint, such as nova, cinder, if the keystone don't retrun the endpoint in the token because of configuration, how to solve the problem?09:30
yuvalzhonghua-lee: sure09:30
oshidoshizengchen: what do you mean?09:30
zhonghua-leeanyone consider how Smaug to support the application backup? e.g. DB, such as Oracle09:30
zhonghua-leeand others apps, such as sharepoint....09:31
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oshidoshizhonghua-lee: that's a tough question... I think from Smaug's point of view, we need to see that the APIs can accommodate 3rd party backup solutions for the above09:31
zhonghua-leewhat I know, some backup software has his own method09:31
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oshidoshispecifically about Sharepoint, it's a little problematic, since it's a Windows-based software09:32
yuvalzengchen: that is a good question. What if the protectable just doesn't list the resources?09:32
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zengchen<oshidoshi>:I mean, how to get the endpoint of other service in the smaug. we know keystone may not return the catalog in the token.09:32
zhonghua-leealso some of the backup software suppoort his policy.09:32
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chenying__ application backup, some backup software maybe have its own scheduler/policy.09:33
oshidoshizehngchen: okay, here's a thought...09:33
zhonghua-leeoshidoshi: I mean do we consider to pass the policy to the plun-in directly?09:33
oshidoshiwhat if we add some validation on the response, e.g. if there's a VM instance, we expect also a Volume and Image protectables...09:33
oshidoshiso, if we don't get them from Keystone, we can send some warning to the user, like "VM without Volume" or "VM without Image", etc.09:34
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oshidoshizhonghua-lee: I'm not sure I follow what you propose... maybe take it offline, or discuss over some BP...09:34
zhonghua-leeoshidoshi: ok.09:35
yuvalAnything else?09:35
oshidoshiwho's coming to OpenStack Day Beijing?09:35
zengchenoshidoshi: in the smaug we need create other service's client, so we should get the endpoint first.09:36
zhonghua-leeoshidoshi: I think I will be there.09:36
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oshidoshiAnyone else planning to come there?09:37
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zhonghua-leeyuval: see you...09:37
yuvalchenying__: are you coming?09:37
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chenying__yuval: yes I will09:38
zengchenoshidoshi:maybe we should solve the problem, not just seed warning.09:38
oshidoshizengchen: if we can solve the problem by ourselves, fine.  but what if the user did not set it up correctly?09:38
zengchenoshidoshi:yes, that's another good way. but first we should solve it.09:39
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oshidoshizengchen: okay, we can discuss this after the meeting, I need to get better grasp on the scenario09:40
zengchenoshidoshi: ok, thank you.09:40
yuvalAnything else?09:41
oshidoshizengchen: you're welcome09:41
yuvalThank you all :)09:41
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"09:41
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 21 09:41:34 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)09:41
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-06-21-09.01.html09:41
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-06-21-09.01.txt09:41
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-06-21-09.01.log.html09:41
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yanyanhu#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 21 13:00:32 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yanyanhu. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
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openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
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yanyanhuqiming is not here for family reason, so I will hold this meeting today13:01
yanyanhuhi, haiwei , elynn13:01
yanyanhuwill wait for a minute for other attender13:01
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yanyanhuok, lets start13:02
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yanyanhuplease check the agenda and item you want to discuss :)13:02
yanyanhu#topic newton workitems13:02
*** openstack changes topic to "newton workitems (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:02
yanyanhulets quick go through the etherpad13:02
rossella_shi :)13:02
elynnwelcome rossella_s13:03
yanyanhuhi,  rossella_s13:03
yanyanhuthe first item is tempest test13:03
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yanyanhutempest API test is almost done I think13:03
yanyanhuelynn, I think it is?13:03
yanyanhufor both positive and negative cases13:04
yanyanhunice :)13:04
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elynnSaw you add release note13:04
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elynnWe can move on to functional test and integration test13:04
yanyanhuyes. If there is any case missing, plz feel free to propose patch for it :)13:04
yanyanhuthe next step is migrating existing functional test to tempest13:04
yanyanhuI think some existing functional test cases will be removed since they are duplicated with tempest API tests13:05
yanyanhuwill start to work on it13:05
elynnyes, a lot of them.13:05
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yanyanhusince our tempest API test is very complete I think :)13:05
yanyanhuany thing else about tempest test?13:06
yanyanhuPerformance Test13:06
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yanyanhuactually no much progress this week...13:06
yanyanhujust merged the rally plugin for cluster-resize13:06
yanyanhuso now we have rally plugin support for cluster create/delete/resize13:06
yanyanhuwe can do some basic benchmarking now13:07
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yanyanhuI think eldon is not here13:07
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yanyanhuhope these plugins can provide some help for their test work13:07
yanyanhuBTW, these plugins still stay in senlin repo13:07
yanyanhucontribute them to rally repo is the plan13:08
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yanyanhuok, HA topic13:08
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yanyanhuumm, Qiming  is not here13:08
yanyanhuxinhui, are you around?13:08
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yanyanhuguess no...13:09
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yanyanhuelynn, haiwei , do u guys have another thing want to discuss about this topic?13:09
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yanyanhuok, lets skip it13:09
yanyanhufor container support13:10
yanyanhuhaiwei, any thing new :)13:10
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yanyanhuI noticed you proposed some patches to add docker driver13:10
yanyanhuand the profile support as well13:10
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yanyanhuthis is the latest one13:11
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yanyanhuand this one has been merged13:11
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yanyanhuhaiwei, there?13:12
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yanyanhuok, lets move on and maybe go back later13:12
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yanyanhuah, zaqar support13:13
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yanyanhuhasn't started I guess13:13
yanyanhunot sure anyone has plan to work on it13:13
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elynnwelcome back haiwei :)13:16
haiweidropped just now13:16
elynnyanyanhu, just ask you about container support progress :)13:16
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haiweiI added container create/delete driver this week13:16
yanyanhuif not, will try to spend some time on it after functional test migration is done13:17
yanyanhuit's on our roadmap of newton release13:17
yanyanhushould finish it13:17
haiweihope you can review it13:17
yanyanhunext one is notification13:17
yanyanhuskip it as well since Qiming is not here.13:17
yanyanhuok, these are all items in etherpad13:17
yanyanhuthe next topic in agenda is deploying senlin-engine and senlin-api in different hosts13:17
yanyanhuthis is a problem asked by eldon zhao from cmcc13:17
yanyanhuguess he hasn't join meeting channel13:17
yanyanhuhaiwei, sure13:17
yanyanhuwill help to check it :)13:17
elynnwow, yanyanhu just said lots of words.13:17
yanyanhuI thought my network is broken :)13:17
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yanyanhuit is real...13:17
haiweime too, yanyanhu13:17
yanyanhumy network was broken....13:17
yanyanhuI'm using proxy at home13:18
haiweihaha, I thought it was my network's problem13:18
yanyanhuthe proxy is setup in softlayer13:18
elynneldon_, was joined.13:18
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yanyanhuand I have to use vpn to connect to IBM network before I can access that softlayer machine...13:18
yanyanhuhi, eldon_ , welcome :)13:18
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elynnIs there any bug when deploy api and engine on different hosts?13:18
yanyanhueldon_, I just made a test this afternoon and found it worked in my local env :)13:19
haiweiI am curious about deploying api and engine on different hosts13:19
haiweiwhat does it mean?13:19
yanyanhujust need to be careful about two things13:19
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eldon_maybe, you have configured host in senlin.conf @yanyanhu13:19
yanyanhuhaiwei, that means senlin-engine is running in a host while senlin-api is running in another host13:20
yanyanhueldon_, yes13:20
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yanyanhuthe "host" option in both machines must be the same13:20
haiweiwhy do we need this feature?13:20
eldon_but, i have one api and two engine.13:20
yanyanhuto let senlin-engine and senlin-api talk using the same rpc server13:20
elynnI thought rabbitmq is the only tool to connect them together.13:20
eldon_how can I configure host~13:21
yanyanhulet me see13:21
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yanyanhuwhy you want to setup two senlin-engine services13:21
yanyanhuand only one senlin-api services13:21
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yanyanhuif you want to add engine worker, you can configure it in senlin.conf13:22
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haiweiI got it, that is for some cases when nodes are too many13:22
yanyanhuthe structure of senlin is different from nova :)13:22
yanyanhuwho has one nova-api with multiple nova-compute13:22
eldon_I use two engines for one api, I just want to make senlin more stronger13:22
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yanyanhunova-compute is actually an agent which map request from API to VM creation13:23
eldon_if one senlin-engine down, we have another engine13:23
yanyanhueldon_, nice try :)13:23
eldon_it's not like nova-compute13:23
yanyanhujust that could not match the design :)13:23
yanyanhueldon_, yes13:23
yanyanhuthat's the point13:23
haiweiwhat is the difference?13:23
haiweinova and senlin13:23
yanyanhuactually I guess you can setup two engines with one api13:23
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yanyanhubut the behavior could be unpredictable13:24
haiweisenlin engine is not a proxy but some workers?13:24
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yanyanhuhaiwei, I think senlin-engine is not agent like nova-compute13:24
yanyanhuyes, I think so13:24
yanyanhueldon dropped...13:24
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yanyanhuhi, eldon_13:25
eldon_sorry to logout13:25
yanyanhuno problem13:25
eldon_yes, i am in~13:25
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yanyanhuI think you can try to configure the 'host' option to let one senlin-api talk with two senlin-engines13:25
eldon_can we setup two engines with one api?13:25
yanyanhuI think so13:25
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yanyanhujust I'm not 100% sure about the result13:25
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eldon_this afternoon, I changed code for this.13:26
haiweiwhat is the 'host' option?13:26
yanyanhujust set 'host' in senlin.conf in all three machines to the same value13:26
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yanyanhusenlin.conf, haiwei13:26
yanyanhuand also set rabbit_host to the same one13:26
elynnyanyanhu, Why do we do that?13:26
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haiweia IP address?13:27
yanyanhuelynn, eldon_ want to make a try :)13:27
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yanyanhuto see whether that works13:27
yanyanhuhaiwei, yes13:27
yanyanhurabbit_host is a ip address where rabbit server is located13:27
eldon_def __init__(self):13:27
eldon_        self._client = messaging.get_rpc_client(13:27
eldon_            topic=consts.ENGINE_TOPIC,13:27
haiweiIt seems we need a scheduler13:27
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eldon_I removed server param, and it works13:27
yanyanhuhaiwei, scheduler for?13:27
yanyanhueldon_, if there is only one api and one engine, you don't need to remove server param13:28
yanyanhuit worked in my local env13:28
elynnyanyanhu, I mean why do we need to set host the same in 3 machines?13:28
haiweiit can be random for rabbitmq to choose which engine to send request?13:28
yanyanhuhaiwei, it can be, just no necessary I guess13:28
yanyanhuelynn, since eldon wants one senlin-api to talk with two senlin-engines at the same time13:29
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yanyanhuso we need to ensure all three of them interact with each other using the same rpc server.topic13:29
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yanyanhuwhich created in rabbit_host13:29
eldon_our project wants senlin more stronger.13:29
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yanyanhuhaiwei, it's broadcast13:29
eldon_So we need this feature.13:29
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yanyanhubut only one engine can receive and handle the request from api13:29
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elynnI think the sever must be different?13:30
yanyanhueldon_, I guess we don't need to revise existing code13:30
yanyanhuto achieve your goal :)13:30
elynnmulti engines is the same as multi workers13:30
yanyanhulet me see, elynn13:30
elynnI thought.13:30
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yanyanhuoh, right, if the 'host' is the same for two senlin-engines13:30
yanyanhuI guess one of them can't start correctly13:30
elynnHere is the codes from heat, it just simply set server to different engine_id13:30
yanyanhuelynn, a little different13:31
elynnIt's just a mark for each engine I think?13:31
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yanyanhuelynn, we don't do this13:31
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yanyanhuthe server for engine service is configured using 'host' option13:31
eldon_yes, not exactly the same.13:31
yanyanhuserver of each dispatcher is the engine_id13:32
elynnI think that's fine.13:32
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yanyanhuso for senlin-engine service, all engine instances have the same tpc "server"13:32
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eldon_I am a little interested about multi-workers.13:33
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yanyanhuthat's why rpc request from senlin-api can broadcast to all of them directly13:33
yanyanhusorry, broadcast is not exact word13:33
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elynnI got what you mean.13:33
elynnso eldon_'s problem is he can't get it work when one api and 2 engines on different hosts?13:33
yanyanhuelynn, yes, looks so13:33
elynnUnless delete host parameter as he said.13:34
yanyanhuhi, eldon_ , I will make further test tomorrow to test that case13:34
elynnright, eldon_ ?13:34
yanyanhuI guess it should work directly13:34
yanyanhubut I'm not sure about it :)13:34
elynnWe should make some unit tests for it after investigation...13:34
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eldon_now I can explain again:)13:35
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yanyanhubased on my understanding of oslo.messaging, I guess either it works directly or one senlin-engine can't start correctly13:35
eldon_we have one api + two engines.13:35
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yanyanhueldon_, yes13:35
eldon_one engine is deployed in api's server, and other one in  other server.13:35
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elynnsorry let you explain again, I'm listening13:35
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eldon_I find that, if we don't configure host in senlin.conf, api will always call engine in its server13:36
yanyanhueldon_, that's true since default 'host' is the host name of your machine :)13:37
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eldon_because, if host isn't configured, it will use hostname in get_rpc_client function.13:37
eldon_if i stop engine in api's server, it can't call engine in other server automatically.13:37
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yanyanhueldon_, yes13:38
elynnbecause api can't resolve the hostname?13:38
yanyanhusince by default, rpc call will be send to 'server1.topic'13:38
eldon_if I remove server param in get_rpc_client, it can automatically call engine in next engine.13:38
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elynnhttps://github.com/openstack/senlin/blob/master/senlin/common/config.py#L92 it does retrieve the hostname and set it as default.13:39
eldon_because api still call engine in its host, but it has already stopped.13:39
yanyanhueldon_, that is because after you remove 'host', rpc request will not target to all rpc server13:39
yanyanhuwith the given topic13:39
yanyanhuso the correct way is configuring two senlin-engine to listen to the server rpc server :013:39
yanyanhurather than removing rpc server parameter from rpc client of senlin-api13:40
eldon_if it needs configuration, we can't add senlin-engine automatically.13:40
elynneldon_, so in api host, can it ping the other server by hostname?13:40
eldon_I find heat solved in the same way.13:40
yanyanhueldon_, but that is the correct way :013:40
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yanyanhuyou can't ensure the rpc topic is unique :)13:40
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eldon_topic is unique, i am sure13:41
yanyanhuwe can't ensure the rpc topic senlin engine used is unique in the rabbit_host13:41
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eldon_topic is senlin13:41
yanyanhuit's senlin-engine I guess13:41
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elynnso the 'host' here actually means api host?13:42
yanyanhuelynn, it's rpc server actually13:43
yanyanhulet me find the code13:43
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yanyanhuand this13:44
yanyanhuso we use both 'host' and 'topic' together to uniquely identify the rpc topic that a senlin-engine(may include multiple workers) listens to13:45
yanyanhuand by default, the rpc request of a senlin-api will be sent to this place13:45
elynnokay, if it's rpc server here, then we should use rabbitmq_host option?13:46
yanyanhuso I mean if you want two senlin-engines receive rpc request from one api, you can configure them listen to the same rpc server.topic13:46
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yanyanhuif it is allowed by oslo.messaging :)13:46
elynnSo if rabbitmq and api doesn't place on one host, we must set host to rabbitmq host, right?13:46
yanyanhuwe should set "rabbit_host" to the ip of server where rabbit server is located13:47
eldon_yayanhu, our cinder project uses your way to solve the problem.13:47
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yanyanhuhost and rabbit_host are two different config  options :)13:47
eldon_they configure the same host in three cinder-volume servers.13:47
yanyanhueldon_, nice, that means oslo.messaging allows this kind of configure :)13:48
eldon_yes. that's just like remove key-server.HAHA13:48
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yanyanhueldon_, er, you can say that :)13:48
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yanyanhusince if we remove key of rpc server13:49
yanyanhuthere is risk for people who just deploy one senlin-api and one senlin-engine :)13:49
eldon_But compared with nova-compute, it's not the exact way to solve it.13:49
yanyanhuthey can't get any benefit13:49
yanyanhueldon_, exactly13:49
yanyanhuthe design is different13:49
elynnSo if we have 2 api and one engine, what will it be...13:50
yanyanhunova-api know which nova-compute it is talking with always13:50
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yanyanhunova-api sends requests to specific nova-compute based on scheduling result13:50
yanyanhunot broadcast to let them compete :)13:50
eldon_if we configure host of nova-compute same, vms can't build.13:50
yanyanhubut in senlin's design, those engines will compete to get the task13:50
yanyanhueldon_, yes13:51
yanyanhuI guess so13:51
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yanyanhuthat doesn't make sense for nova :)13:51
yanyanhusince nova has scheduler13:51
yanyanhubut we don't need :)13:51
eldon_So, if our feature becomes complex, we can't set  engine host the same with each other.13:51
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yanyanhuby "feature becomes complex" you mean?13:52
yanyanhuoh, you mean send rpc request to specified senlin-engine?13:52
yanyanhuif so, yes13:52
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yanyanhuif so, we need scheduler kind of thing13:52
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yanyanhuto make the decision before senlin-api sends rpc request out to engine(s)13:53
eldon_if we need schedule, e, we don't need~13:53
eldon_So, there is no problem now~13:53
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yanyanhubut currently, I guess we don't need it for senlin-engine is not a worker doing local job in host it is staying in13:54
eldon_yes. I see:)13:54
yanyanhueldon_, so besically, there are two different designs :)13:54
yanyanhufor senlin-api/engie and nova-api/compute :)13:54
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yanyanhueldon_, nice, plz make more tries and we can make further discussion about this topic13:55
eldon_So we can make host the same to solve my problem:)13:55
yanyanhuit's very interesting and also very important13:55
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yanyanhueldon_, yes, it can be the current solution13:55
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yanyanhuok, thank you so much for starting this topic, eldon_ :)13:56
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yanyanhuok. last 4 minutes13:56
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yanyanhufor open discussion13:56
eldon_Now, cmcc uses lb_policy and basic scaling policies in our project. And rally is also in use for testing.13:56
yanyanhu#topic open discussion13:56
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yanyanhueldon_, great13:56
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yanyanhulooking forward to your result and feed back :)13:57
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yanyanhuany question, just ping us13:57
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yanyanhuoh, for rally plugins, I think those ones in senlin repo works13:57
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yanyanhuyou can have a try with latest code13:58
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yanyanhulast two minutes13:58
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yanyanhuI planned to make a discussion about summit proposal13:58
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yanyanhubut I think we need to postpone it to next meeting :P13:59
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elynnwe can talk about it in senlin channel13:59
yanyanhuwe have one more week to think :)13:59
elynnor propose it13:59
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yanyanhuok, that's all. thanks you guys for joining, elynn , haiwei , eldon_13:59
elynngood night13:59
yanyanhuhave a nice day14:00
yanyanhugood night14:00
eldon_thanks a lot:)14:00
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yanyanhumy pleasure :)14:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"14:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 21 14:00:19 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-21-13.00.html14:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-21-13.00.txt14:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-06-21-13.00.log.html14:00
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ihrachyshi neutrinos14:00
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ihrachys#startmeeting networking14:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 21 14:00:48 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ihrachys. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:00
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openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'networking'14:00
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ihrachysI will lead the meeting, but note that armax is probably somewhere around :)14:01
ihrachys#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings Agenda14:01
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ihrachyslet's run thru the agenda really quick, we may have the meeting packed14:02
ihrachys#topic Announcements14:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking)"14:02
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ihrachysjust repeating what HenryG said the prev meeting...14:02
ihrachysThe mid-cycle is August 17-19 in Cork, Ireland.14:02
ihrachys#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-neutron-midcycle14:02
ihrachysplease register if you go14:02
ihrachysany more announcements?14:02
ihrachysnope, moving on :)14:03
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ihrachysI expect blueprints to take a vast slot in the meeting, so let's move them to later.14:03
ihrachys#topic Bugs14:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)"14:03
ihrachysthe prev week the deputy was dasm14:04
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ihrachysdasm: any highlights?14:04
dasmweek was pretty calm.14:04
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dasmwe had two gate issues14:04
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dasmone with neutron-lbaas which broke neutron gates14:05
dasmand other, fixed by ihrachys14:05
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dasmright now everything seems to be under control14:05
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dasmthis week, bug deputy is john-davidge14:05
ihrachyswe have more gate failures14:05
ihrachys#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bugs?field.tag=gate-failure14:05
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john-davidgeYes, there are a couple of gate failures so far this week14:06
john-davidge#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1594796 Is the most recent14:06
openstackLaunchpad bug 1594796 in neutron "test_api_extension_validation_with_good_dns_names fails with 500 error" [Critical,Confirmed]14:06
ihrachysright. that one I think is looked at by pavel-bondar right now. but other l3 folks are welcome to assist.14:06
carl_baldwinI just noticed it.  I'm looking in to it also.14:07
john-davidgeWe also have #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1594376 which appears to be more intermittent14:07
openstackLaunchpad bug 1594376 in neutron "Delete subnet fails with "ObjectDeletedError: Instance '<IPAllocation at 0x7f6abc3abe50>' has been deleted, or its row is otherwise not present."" [High,Confirmed]14:07
ihrachysthanks carl_baldwin14:07
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ihrachyscarl_baldwin: are you aware of that one?14:08
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ihrachysin logstash, I see 33 hits in last 7 days14:08
mlavalleihrachys, carl_baldwin: also looking14:08
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carl_baldwinI am now.  :)14:08
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ihrachysok good. let's own the gate.14:08
carl_baldwinI will look in to it once the first is resolved.14:08
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* carl_baldwin owning it. :)14:09
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ihrachys#topic Docs14:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Docs (Meeting topic: networking)"14:09
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ihrachysI haven't seen Sam-I-Am for a while14:09
ihrachysI wonder whether he moved to greener pastures ;)14:10
ihrachysanyone willing to update on behalf of docs subteam?14:10
haleybhe does moo a lot :)14:10
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ihrachysok, I guess we skip, but we need to solve the issue of no docs representation during the meeting. maybe armax will want to follow up on that.14:11
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sc68calI'm around.14:11
ihrachyssc68cal: stage is yours.14:12
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sc68calI think probably the only thing to report is that Sam-I-Am is away so there's slack to be taken up14:13
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sc68cali'll see if I can reach out to edgar since he's our liaison?14:13
carl_baldwinThe weather here in Colorado is so good he might just be out enjoying it.14:13
ihrachyssc68cal: thanks!14:14
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ihrachysyeah, summers are counter productive14:14
ihrachys#topic Transition to OSC14:14
*** openstack changes topic to "Transition to OSC (Meeting topic: networking)"14:14
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ihrachysdasm: you have an update for OSC right?14:15
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dasmihrachys: no.. i just added it to agenda, on behalf of amotoki14:15
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rtheisProgress continues in OSC to enhance and add networking commands14:16
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ihrachysdasm: ouch. I always assume that's you, since you are apparently everywhere!14:16
rtheisfloating ip and rbac support out for review14:16
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amullerrtheis: can you link a resource tracking this work?14:17
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ihrachysrtheis: would neutron reviewers be helpful there, or you think it's better to leave it to OSC core team?14:17
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amullerrtheis: thank you14:18
rtheisihrachys: I think OSC team is doing okay to keep up, but reviews are always welcome14:18
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ihrachysgreat to hear.14:18
ihrachys#topic Moving to Keystone v3 API in Neutron14:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Moving to Keystone v3 API in Neutron (Meeting topic: networking)"14:19
ihrachysdasm: now that should be your slot14:19
dasmihrachys: that's me :D14:19
dasmyes. docs were changed and merged.14:19
ihrachysuser docs or dev docs?14:19
dasmit will probably require additional lookup, after db and internal code will be changed.14:20
ihrachysdasm: I bet we have work to do in networking guide. it's on radar right?14:20
dasmto update it, and notify all developer changes14:20
dasmihrachys: yes, i have this also in my mind.14:20
ihrachysdasm: do we have mergeable reviews in neutron repos for the feature?14:21
dasmnot yet. i'm working on offline db migrations14:21
dasmto change column names14:21
ihrachysok, enjoy :)14:21
ihrachysnow, I'd like to get back to the blueprints section we skipped before, but before I do...14:22
ihrachys#topic Review velocity14:22
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ihrachysarmax: wanna cover that one?14:22
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ihrachysok, I guess I will need to communicate that one myself14:23
ihrachysbasically, armax have some concerns about how we do reviews, both quantitatively as well as qualitatively14:24
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ihrachysfor the former, it's as simple as: neutron core reviewers don't seem to keep up with the patch load, and some don't seem to try14:24
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ihrachysfor the latter, it's more about focus on targeted features, not quality of particular reviews per se14:25
ihrachysthe team seems to be quite distributed (or scattered, depending on your perspective) and does not seem to have a common focus14:26
njohnstonHopefully the mid-cycle will help focus everyone14:26
ihrachysthat's in drastic comparison to e.g. nova team that is very focused (maybe more than you would like)14:26
amullerThe dashboard rossella initiated should probably be mentioned at this point, linked from http://status.openstack.org/reviews/14:27
dasmnjohnston: yeah, but midcycle is pretty late.14:27
ihrachysnjohnston: midcycle is a single week long event only, it doesn't tackle the culprit. also it's targeted to IRL participants14:27
ihrachysamuller: that's a great notice, and yes, I actually wanted to mention it14:28
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john-davidgePerhaps this can be articulated in detail on the ML?14:28
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ajothat's right, we should focus on making use our gerrit dashboard as a primary source14:28
ihrachysjohn-davidge: that's part of the deal. but it would be great if we run it here first.14:28
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ihrachysI would ask current core reviewers, what could help us to stick to common causes, and overall, bump review stats?14:29
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amullerWe try to go through new RFEs in the drivers meeting14:30
ihrachysthere is a significant number of patches in the review queue that does not seem to be taken care by review team as much as you could expect. is it because we target wrong things that no one cares? or everyone is too busy with specific bits they already have on plates?14:30
amullerbut we don't have recurring meetings to track ongoing work14:30
ihrachysamuller: in a way, the meeting like the one today are supposed to be used for that, too14:30
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amullerihrachys: Aye, it's not a crazy idea IMO to add a section to this meeting, or to start a new recurring meeting for cores and anyone interested to track ongoing work, see if there's high priority items that are stuck and not getting reviews14:31
ajomay be we should keep a section on the meeting for this purpose14:31
ihrachysajo: there is actually one for blueprints.14:31
ajoand ping the people responsible for the things that are starving reviews14:32
ihrachysbut maybe the time slot we have for neutron team meetings is just not enough to cover anything in details.14:32
ihrachysajo: how do you determine who is responsible?14:32
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ajoyeah, first one, is the assigned reviewer to an RFE,14:32
amullerihrachys: armax said a while ago that each blueprint should have an approver or a responsible core14:32
ihrachyswe have approvers in LP blueprints, but no approvers for RFEs and bugs.14:32
ajoif it's not an RFE, and it's a bug, then , the core reviewers of the specific area?14:32
ajomaY be we could automate that14:33
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ajomay be we could add some sort of tag to bug description to specify who may be doing reviews on that bug ?14:34
ihrachysI would suggest we don't target anything that does not have at least two cores + backup to drive the feature. it may reduce the number of targeted features, but that would just reflect the reality where 80% of things we target right now will not probably happen this cycle.14:34
ajoit's a bit of micromanagement may be, but, it's a way to make sure people get a more prioritized review inbox14:34
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ihrachysajo: a comment in LP may be good enough to have people responsible.14:34
ihrachysajo: or you mean, we generate personalized gerrit dashes?14:35
ajoihrachys, I personally cope very bad with all the amount of email my inbox receives, specially bug notifications, even if I try to keep up with reading them all...14:35
ihrachysthat would probably be hard to maintain14:35
ajoihrachys, personalized gerrit dashes14:35
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ajowell... to be fair14:36
ihrachysis the current dash that we have from rossella_s too big to digest?14:36
ajowe can already add people to a review14:36
ajoand it will show in the standard gerrit dash14:36
ajo(the standard : no dash)14:36
ihrachysyeah. the only problem I have with that is people adding random people to their patches just because they are on core team14:37
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ihrachysany more thoughts from other team members? do you think the way it goes is good enough?14:38
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john-davidgeIt sounds like a well documented, well focused custom dash for core reviewers could go a long way to solving some of this14:38
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ihrachysjohn-davidge: but there is already one, that shows just targeted pieces, and there are actually not that many patches there14:39
ajoyes, may be per-core customized links, published in shorteners.14:39
ihrachyswho uses the dashboard from rossella_s?14:39
ajowe tag by using bug comments, or in the description14:39
ajoreviewers: a,b,c,d14:39
ajoI tend to forget using it, I only do it when my default queue drains..14:40
hichiharame too ;)14:40
ihrachysajo: does it happen? I mean, the queue drain?14:41
ajoihrachys, almost never TBH, just sometimes14:41
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ajoso, this is, why in my case, I should probably switch the priority around14:41
ihrachysso that's the point. unless you say no to untargeted stuff, it just sneaks into your mind14:41
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HenryGeasier said than done14:42
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ihrachysok, I guess other cores are too shy to speak up or smth. I guess armax will need to follow up on the topic in ML anyway.14:42
ajoHenryG, true14:42
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ihrachyslet's run thru some blueprints really quick14:43
ihrachys#topic Blueprints14:43
*** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: networking)"14:43
ihrachys#link https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/newton-214:43
ihrachys#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/troubleshooting14:44
ihrachysamuller: does it happen in N?14:44
ihrachysafaik it's still in spec discussion mode14:44
amullerihrachys: it's waiting for reviews on the spec14:44
amullerihrachys: Hynek added a new revision today14:44
hynekm_it would appreciate reviews14:44
ihrachysamuller: you are an approver. do you think it's ready?14:45
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amullerihrachys: I haven't read the new revision from today, I last talked to Hynek last week for the new direction14:45
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ihrachysnote that we approach N2 in several weeks. which makes chances of anything with no code patches in review quite low14:46
ihrachysamuller: I see armax is on review list for the spec. is there agreement?14:46
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HenryGShould this BP be 'High' priority?14:47
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HenryGI mean in relation to some of the others?14:47
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HenryGPerhaps in the next drivers meeting the priorities can be discussed.14:49
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ihrachysHenryG: that's a good idea. there is little reason to approve more RFEs while we struggle to deliver half or what we targeted.14:49
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amullerihrachys: we'll see :)14:50
ajoI just ask to make a 2nd-pass on the qos-rules extended validation RFE, as it's a blocker for the other QoS RFEs14:50
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ihrachysajo: you mean, you have more to add to what was discussed the prev drivers meeting?14:50
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ajoihrachys, I added on the bug itself, I agree on the reduced scope of the RFE14:51
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ihrachysnext in the list is14:51
ihrachys#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/multi-l3-backends14:51
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ihrachysiyamahat: that's on you. what's the status here.14:51
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ihrachysthere is a link to a gerrit topic in LP, but it does not seem to work14:52
ihrachysok, I guess we go next14:52
ihrachys#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/push-notifications14:52
hichiharaThe feature is managed by Kevin now14:52
ihrachyshichihara: I see14:53
ihrachysthat one is also on kevinbenton14:53
ihrachysI am approver. we landed some first patches for revision numbers already, more to come.14:53
ihrachysthat and subnet object that korzen is working on should unblock the progress there.14:53
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ihrachysI think it's on good track.14:53
ihrachys#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/vlan-aware-vms14:53
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ihrachysrossella_s is not here, but maybe someone else wants to update us.14:54
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ihrachysthere's a huge queue for reviews:14:54
ihrachys#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/vlan-aware-vms+status:open14:54
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ihrachysI believe we closed the nova interaction concern in the ML thread, so it's a matter of reviews.14:55
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* ihrachys feels lonely14:56
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ihrachysok, the last one for today14:56
ihrachys#topic https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/fwaas-api-2.014:56
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hichiharaIt seems there is progress but many -114:56
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ihrachyssc68cal: do you want to update on that one?14:56
hichiharaI'm here :)14:56
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ihrachysI see some patches at https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/neutron-fwaas+branch:master+topic:fwaas_v2_api14:56
ihrachysbut nothing that would land so far14:57
njohnstonThe prerequisite for that is the l3 agent extensions work14:57
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sc68caland a devstack plugin14:57
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sc68calbasically are people serious about fwaas? because the resources haven't really been put forward14:57
ihrachysnjohnston: it's weird, fwaas v2 is High, but your thing is Low14:57
njohnstonsc68cal: yes; there is work on the devstack plugin currently14:57
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ihrachysI believe we should bump l3 extension thing14:57
ihrachyssc68cal: I am good to ditch it. I was good to do it at the summit. but armax is the king.14:58
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ihrachyswe need to decide when we do the call on removal of those repos from neutron14:59
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ihrachysokay, that's all for bp14:59
ihrachysone small thing before we end the meeting14:59
ihrachys#topic Other stuff14:59
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ihrachyssome of you may want to know that we landed a patches for governance lately that changed the way we manage governance tags for neutron bits15:00
ihrachys#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323522/15:00
ihrachysthat removed some tags like supports-upgrade from *aas repos15:00
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hichiharaI will check15:00
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ihrachyswhich is fine since it only reflects reality (of missing grenade gating for those repos)15:00
ihrachysso just a heads up15:00
ihrachysok, that's all. we will follow up on remaining bps next week.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 21 15:01:00 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:01
amullerihrachys: Thank you15:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-06-21-14.00.html15:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-06-21-14.00.txt15:01
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2016/networking.2016-06-21-14.00.log.html15:01
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carl_baldwinHi routed networks folks15:02
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carl_baldwinI'm in the middle of a critical gate failure.  Should we just check in really quick?15:03
* xiaohhui agree15:03
carl_baldwin#startmeeting neutron_routed_networks15:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 21 15:03:41 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is carl_baldwin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_routed_networks)"15:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_routed_networks'15:03
carl_baldwin#topic Open Agenda15:03
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carl_baldwinWe'll just start with this.15:04
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john-davidgeI'd just like to draw attention to #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/300207/ - we need it to merge ASAP15:04
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carl_baldwinFirst, look over the etherpad and gerrit topic for reviews.15:04
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carl_baldwin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/routed-provider-networks-notes15:04
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carl_baldwin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/routed-networks+status:open15:04
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carl_baldwinjohn-davidge: I'll ping kevinbenton again to have another pass.15:06
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john-davidgecarl_baldwin: Thanks :)15:06
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carl_baldwinI'm still working on Nova side.  I will commit to having some kind of Nova patch up this week to allow deferred IP alloc.15:06
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carl_baldwinblogan: how is DHCP going?15:07
bloganhad the week off last week, going to push up a new patch today15:07
bloganthough one question15:07
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carl_baldwinblogan: What's that?15:08
blogankevinbenton suggested just scheduling all segments in a network, instead of just the one segment affected that the code is currently doing15:08
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blogandoes anyone feel strongly for or against that method?15:09
xiaohhuiI think scheduling to one segment one time is fine.15:10
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xiaohhuiAfter all, we are adding one segment-subnet one time15:10
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bloganxiaohhui: true but it wouldn't hurt to attempt to do them all, and really it'll probably just be one that gets scheduled 99% of the time anyway if thats always done15:11
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carl_baldwinblogan: I don't feel strongly.15:11
john-davidgeblogan: Did kevin highlight a particualr advantage to doing it that way?15:11
blogani believe the advantage would be that we wouldn't have to pass specific segment information down to the scheduler from the notification code15:12
carl_baldwinblogan: That could simplify things a bit.15:12
blogancurrently its being packed into the network dictionary so that the scheduler knows what segment is actually needing scheduling15:13
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xiaohhuiI am adding candidates as parameter in schedule method in this patch for refactoring l3-agent-scheduler.15:13
john-davidgeI'm not sure I can think of any obvious downsides of scheduling them all at once15:13
john-davidgeSo it seems fine to me15:14
bloganxiaohhui: could the same thing be done in your case?15:14
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xiaohhuiI am thinking it is the same thing to pass candidates as parameter for segment scheduling.15:15
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xiaohhuiSo, it that patch is merged, I think we can avoid pullute network dict15:16
xiaohhuiit -> if15:16
blogani thought there was a reason we didn't want to change the base scheduler's arguments like that, it breaking the interface15:16
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xiaohhuiMay be we should discuss in the review of that patch...15:17
bloganxiaohhui: +115:17
carl_baldwinblogan: Let us know when you get your update posted.15:17
blogancarl_baldwin: will do15:17
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carl_baldwinAnything else to bring up?15:18
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carl_baldwinPlease review and update the etherpad regularly.15:20
carl_baldwinGoing once...15:20
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carl_baldwinGoing twice...15:21
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:22
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 21 15:22:06 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:22
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-06-21-15.03.html15:22
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-06-21-15.03.txt15:22
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_routed_networks/2016/neutron_routed_networks.2016-06-21-15.03.log.html15:22
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stevemarcourtesy ping for ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, MaxPC, morgan, nkinder, notmorgan, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tjcocozz, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek18:00
samueldmqhi folks18:00
stevemar#startmeeting keystone18:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 21 18:00:12 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:00
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stevemar#link agenda https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:00
* stevemar has a full cup of tea in front of him and ready for a long meeting18:01
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stevemar#topic release status18:01
*** openstack changes topic to "release status (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
stevemarjust wanted to give a status here, we're in R15 of the schedule http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html18:02
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stevemar(it counts down)18:02
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stevemarWe're between the proposal spec freeze (R18) and spec freeze (R13)18:02
stevemarso start reviewing keystone specs :)18:03
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stevemar(which i also have to do...)18:03
samueldmqstevemar: ++18:03
samueldmqfor the first sentence18:03
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stevemar#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/keystone-specs+status:open18:03
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stevemarhandy link for open keystone specs ^18:03
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stevemarthats all I have to say about that for now, thanks for listening :)18:04
stevemarany qs?18:04
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stevemarnext topic18:04
stevemar#topic keystoneauth entry points for Kerbers and SAML218:04
*** openstack changes topic to "keystoneauth entry points for Kerbers and SAML2 (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:05
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stevemarayoung is not online o_O18:05
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stevemardolphm with the quick -118:05
rodrigodsstevemar, just appeared18:05
stevemarso i think this is mostly done18:05
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stevemarayoung: o/18:05
ayoungah   had not reconnected18:05
ayoungI was sitting here wondering where everyone was18:06
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ayoungSo quick one here...I think most of the auth plugin issues are solved18:06
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ayoungthere was one with KC, have not checked with Auth, but the unscoped SAML2 plugin could never have worked.18:06
stevemarjamielennox did some fancy stuff with loading extras, crinkle made the kerberos stuff available and jamielennox refactored the saml bits last night18:06
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jamielennoxyep, so i unploaded a new version of the saml refactor that i was just setting up an environment to test18:07
jamielennoxit exposes a v3samlpassword18:07
jamielennoxwhich feels like a bad name18:07
ayoungSo the question was...if we enumerate the entrypoints, and the plugin is not loadable due to package dependencies, is that OK?  Or should we wait until the user tries to load the plugin and then say "sorry, dependncy unmet"18:07
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stevemarjamielennox: ^18:07
jamielennoxayoung: we added a thing for that18:08
gyeeload on-demand?18:08
ayoungjamielennox, so enumerate will always work?18:08
jamielennoxayoung: there's an "available" property on loaders that can short circuit whether the plugin appears in the listing18:08
stevemarjamielennox ayoung i believe it'll enumerate only the available ones18:08
gyeewhy bother to load if user never intend to use that plugin18:08
jamielennoxayoung: so you do like ImportError checking on your dependencies, and if they are not available then you set available false on the plugin and it will get ignored18:09
jamielennoxgyee: there are times you enumerate every plugin on the system18:09
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dstanekjamielennox: nice18:09
bknudson_hopefully you can also avoid enumerating every plugin18:09
gyeejamielennox, why?18:09
gyeeplugins should be loaded on-demand18:09
jamielennoxayoung: example: https://github.com/openstack/keystoneauth/blob/master/keystoneauth1/extras/kerberos/_loading.py#L2418:09
jamielennoxgyee: it's rare, but OSC does it for options and help building18:10
ayoungjamielennox, so to test that you need a SAML provider?18:10
jamielennoxayoung: pretty much18:10
ayoungOK so I need to update the installer we have to work with the DLRN code, which should mirror master18:11
stevemarjamielennox: ayoung it'll be nice to get that refactor in early enough in the release cycle so we can fix things that may go boom18:11
stevemarmirror master o_O, that's a bold move18:11
ayoungstevemar, yeah, and  we might need some backporting, too18:11
ayoungwell...I will need to backport18:11
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stevemarayoung: yeah, our backport policy may not allow for that :\18:11
rodrigodsstevemar, hmm isn't a bug?18:12
samueldmqwhat does 'enumerate' a plugin mean ?18:12
ayoungsince we ship a version of KSA that syncs with what went out with Mitaka.18:12
rodrigodsor is too huge to backport?18:12
stevemarrodrigods: it's a huge refactor18:12
ayoungrodrigods, yeah, but we don't backport KSA and KC changes18:12
ayoungwe just tell people to upgrade to the latest18:12
stevemarayoung: sure we do, but not if they are huge refactors :)18:12
ayoungI am more concerned with the Federation support for scoped tokens VIa SAML18:12
ayoungthat was broekn last summer, Jamie tells me it is fixed.  I need to test that.18:13
ayoungAnyway...I think we are good, and can move on18:13
gyeewe support SAML to scoped token directly?!18:13
ayounggyee, nope18:13
dstaneksamueldmq: basically get a list of them18:13
ayounggyee, there is a provider that does this18:13
ayounguses saml to get unscoped token18:13
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gyeeayoung, we need to18:14
ayoungthen scopes that based on what the user sets for project18:14
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gyeecertificate for token18:14
samueldmqdstanek: ah ok, so just listing all of them vs listing available ones (with what jamielennox added)18:14
samueldmqdstanek: thanks18:14
ayoungbut it was broken,  expected a token to be passed in, not doing the rescoping itself18:14
stevemargyee: i think dolphm's spec allows for that, can you help with the code or reviews?18:14
gyeestevemar, sure, will do18:14
stevemargyee: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/324055/18:15
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gyeethank you Sir18:15
stevemargyee: you haven't reviewed it yet, i think you'll like it ;)18:15
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stevemaralright, next topic forreals18:15
stevemar#topic Swift ACLs and keystone18:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Swift ACLs and keystone (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:15
stevemar#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-June/096712.html18:15
stevemarif anyone is familiar with swift ACLs, feel free to reply to that ML, it needs some love18:16
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stevemarthat's all i really have to say about it, i don't know enough about the topic to reply18:16
gyeeYAML instead of JSON18:16
stevemarif no one else does, i can research it and reply18:16
gyeeSwift ACLs are for human consumption18:16
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bknudson_I think this is embedding JSON in the URL18:17
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gyeeSwift ACLs are conveyed in the headers no?18:17
stevemarbknudson_: gyee we can chat about it in -keystone, it's not super urgent18:18
jamielennoxso i don't understand swift ACLs, but yea the follow up message - don't use names for describing users, use ids18:18
stevemarjust wanted to bring it to the attention of the team18:19
gyeecorrect, names are deprecated18:19
gyeeas they are 1) not globally unique, and 2) mutable18:19
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stevemarhenrynash_: you ready sir?18:20
stevemarnext topic time18:20
stevemar#topic Project name constraints & project hierarchical naming18:20
shalehget yer tomatoes ready18:20
*** openstack changes topic to "Project name constraints & project hierarchical naming (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:20
gyeewe had a long discussion about it at Paris if I remember correctly18:20
* rodrigods gets the popcorn18:20
henrynash_ok (ducks)18:20
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henrynash_so latets proposed spec is: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318605/18:20
henrynash_key summry block around line 150 in there that summarizes the compatibility18:20
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henrynash_dolphm: I know youjust sent out some comments18:21
henrynash_“ The idea of asking clients to specify project names depending on both the version of the client they're using and the microversion of the server they're using does not seem tenable in the wild, especially when there are so many custom clients out there."18:21
dolphmhenrynash_: i appreciate the additional effort documenting the compatibility - i think it does a good job to highlight just how confusing this change will be for end users and operators :-/18:21
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henrynash_dolphm: so the no name would ever change underneath you, form a server microversion chnage18:22
bknudson_I'm not sure how nova, etc. handles microversions in their python library.18:22
stevemarit feels like HMT will never end :(18:22
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bknudson_you have to opt-in to microversions.18:22
notmorganstevemar: can we just remove it? [only sort of joking]18:23
bknudson_so if you don't opt-in you'll never see this18:23
shalehbknudson_: they do 3 - 5 round trips to determine the version. Then they make calls based on said version18:23
henrynash_dolphm: but change client versions, would cause the name to now include thepath18:23
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gyee3 -5 roundtrips? ouch!18:23
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shalehgyee: yeah18:23
dolphmthis proposal represents a staggering amount of complexity with questionable, IMO, benefits18:24
bknudson_shaleh: does the novaclient API change based on the version the server reports?18:24
henrynash_gyee: they are meant to cache it, but not sure they do18:24
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notmorgandolphm: i am still pretty much in the camp of "don't bother" and not relax the uniqueness requirements18:24
shalehbknudson_: options become relevant as the version shifts18:24
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* gyee is in the same camp as dolphm and notmorgan18:24
henrynash_dolphm: and I guess that’s the issue…if we EVER want to change this, this is about as good (?) as it gets18:24
shalehhenrynash_: the question is then, do we expect a customer using these names to also be using mixed version clients.18:25
dolphmhenrynash_: that might be true18:25
samueldmqnotmorgan: stevemar: I like HMT, but it seems to me we're going so quick that other services can't follow (they're still adopting hierarchical projs)18:25
stevemarhenrynash_: so what's the end goal here? we're adding a complex naming spec and microversions for ... ?18:25
notmorgansamueldmq: it's a question of where we set the goal post18:25
dstanekcan we add some usecases to the spec explain why it's necessary?18:25
notmorgansamueldmq: not how fast we get there.18:25
shalehif a user is NOT using HMT are they affected by this?18:25
dolphmnotmorgan: IN SPACE18:25
stevemardstanek: that's what i was trying to get at :)18:25
dstanekstevemar: get to the point!18:26
jamielennoxso i'm still not sure this gets around the problem, if you create a project with a 3.7 client then fetch it with a 3.6 client then does the unique constraint hold?18:26
notmorgandolphm: actually, i hear it's in Brazil ( olympics reference? )18:26
samueldmqnotmorgan: even worst if we go fast and haven't defined the goal ? :-)18:26
rodrigodsis it going to break cinder? for example/18:26
stevemari think henrynash_ is drumming up like 6 responses18:26
henrynash_stevemar: the goal is t get us out ofthe limitation befiore it’s too late!18:26
henrynash_shalel: and no, it won\’t affect anyone unless they are using hierchies18:26
dstanekright now it says we do X and to do Y we must ... and it breaks these things, but not why Y18:26
dolphmhenrynash_: what benefit does removing this limitation provide to end users?18:27
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ayoungI still don't understand why this can't be a config swtich, and, if a user has two projects withthe same name (but different parents) that only is allowed if the feature is enabled18:27
shalehayoung: ++18:27
notmorganayoung: no more config switches for drastically different behaviors18:27
ayoungthe hierarchical naming is also only allowed if enabled18:27
henrynash_dolphm: it enables a common deployment pattern of having duplicate hierchies for stages of a products deployment (as desciubed in the spec)18:27
notmorganayoung: /me puts on TC/defcore-thinking hat18:27
notmorganayoung: no.18:27
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ayoungnotmorgan, yes.  Please don't tie our hands for arbitrary rules18:28
notmorganayoung: this designs for non-interoperable clouds18:28
ayoungnotmorgan, nope18:28
notmorganayoung: absolutely not -2.18:28
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ayoungnot even a little18:28
notmorganayoung: yes it does, explicitly.18:28
jamielennoxayoung, notmorgan: agreed, we should move the whole project, it's a PITA not knowing if a server has something enabled or not18:28
* ayoung proposes palace coup18:28
dolphmhenrynash_: i wasn't aware that we had a pattern around consuming entire hierarchies at all18:28
shalehayoung: a cup of what? :-)18:28
crinkleconfig management tools would have a hard time dealing with different deployment types like that18:28
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ayoungshaleh, tea of course18:28
notmorgancrinkle: ++.18:29
ayoungmeh...I'm going back to Java18:29
henrynash_dolphm: it’s how lots of internal development structures work….you just can do that in OPenSTack today18:29
shalehayoung: you just said tea....18:29
henrynash_sorry, “ can’t do that"18:29
dolphmhenrynash_: i can have a "staging" project and a "production" project in the same domain today18:29
ayoungProgramming ... make one mistake and support it for the rest of your life18:29
gyeeayoung, no, just deprecate it :-)18:30
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notmorgandolphm: what henry is proposing is an "accounting" project and "dev" project, each wanting a "production" and "Staging" proiject under them18:30
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notmorgandolphm: that is, afaict, the whole reason for this.18:30
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gyeenotmorgan, they are really two different domains18:30
dolphmnotmorgan: right, i follow. i'd name them "accounting-production" and "accounting-staging" and so on, personally18:30
notmorgangyee: that has been my argument18:31
shalehwhich sounds totally reasonable. We just need to work out how.18:31
henrynash_dolphm: yep, but to be able to have a banch of the tree per preojct (so quotas can work), means you need, say /staging and /prod under muliple product branches of teh treee18:31
notmorgandolphm: ++18:31
ayoungand the real issue is that we can't have "domain":"foo", "project" :"bah"  where "bah" exists twice under the domain18:31
dolphmor have different domains for "accounting" and "dev"18:31
notmorgandolphm: +++++++++18:31
ayoungso hierarchcial naming is going to be done Database style: with underscores18:31
stevemarayoung: with dashes and hyphens, obvs18:31
notmorganstevemar: ascii bell characters, duh18:32
ayoungstevemar, and nonprinting non asciii unicode characters18:32
henrynash_dolphm, notmorgan: so we have to expose domains to teh rest of the projects so they can do quotas to cover up our restictiorns18:32
notmorganhenrynash_: i'm fine with other projects becoming domain aware tbh.18:32
* gyee imagines how to enter the entire HMT in Chinese18:32
notmorgani think we're trying to walk backwards to avoid that18:32
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ayoungsorry that should be18:32
bknudson_just like we have test_backend_endpoint_policy and test_backend_endpoint_policy_sql -- use _ instead of /18:32
raildothe only thing that I have to say (as part of the team who implemented HMT) HMT was not our last goal, it was one of the first steps to provide better and bigger use cases, like nested quota, reseller. So, this point that henrynash_ is trying to explain will open the doors for this usecases...18:32
ayoungdomain="(┛✧Д✧))┛彡┻━┻"  project="(┛✧Д✧))┛彡┻━┻"18:33
shalehraildo: ++18:33
notmorganthis pretty much is solved if we change our stance and let services be domain aware18:33
notmorganand we've basically been headed that way for a while anyway18:33
shalehwhy hide domains? What was the logic?18:33
henrynash_notmorgan: we have a fundamental restrciotn based on a pre-domain model…18:33
notmorganshaleh: simplicity18:33
ayoungthey are stupid shaleh18:33
ayoungdomains are projects18:33
ayoungjust we decide to call them something else18:33
bknudson_how is it possible to do hierarchical quota without other projects knowing about the hierarchy?18:34
notmorganayoung: oups.18:34
ayoungand force a two level hierachy18:34
bknudson_unless it's keystone doing the quotas.18:34
shalehayoung: talking to other service teams they still say "tenant"18:34
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notmorganayoung: predates me :(18:34
ayoungnotmorgan, does not predate gyee18:34
gyeeif it walk like a duck, quack like a duck, then it must be a duck18:34
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notmorganayoung: i'd argue they should have all been realms. :P18:34
ayounggyee, it is not a flipping duck!18:34
* notmorgan stops snarking18:34
raildobknudson_: in the current solution, the service calls keystone API to the get the hierarchy18:34
samueldmqbknudson_: services do an additional call to keystone to know the hierarchy of the project in question18:34
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ayoungand it is certainly not a domain according to DNS18:34
jamielennoxi would also prefer not to expose domains to services - they shouldn't care18:34
dolphmbknudson_: you're assuming that no one puts underscores in their project names already?18:34
ayoungwhich is what really messes with the naming18:34
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samueldmqare we getting to working points/decisions here ?18:35
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stevemarsamueldmq: nope :(18:35
henrynash_(I don’t think so)18:35
jamielennoxbut if we could get back to the topic?18:35
notmorganjamielennox: what is the reason behind that? i mean, nova being able to let a domain admin act upon all the vms in it's subprojects with one token?18:35
samueldmqjamielennox: ++18:35
notmorganjamielennox: is that not a valid usecase?18:35
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stevemarhenrynash_: i think it's on you to better convince us that all this work is going to result in a huge benefit18:35
notmorganjamielennox: and similarly, domain X,Y,Z all share a pool of quota?18:36
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ayoungϵ( ‘Θ’ )϶18:36
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stevemarcause ATM, dolphm has a similar problem and fixes it in a different way18:36
shalehstevemar: dolphm has a simpler, similar problem18:36
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dolphmit'd be simpler to enumerate the projects a token can act on in a "multi-project scoped token" (that way, other services don't have to care how keystone generated the list, nor do they have to store the project hierarchy"18:36
raildoayoung: you have the better emoticons18:36
ayoungclosest I could come to a duck gyee18:36
stevemarand, what exactly are the alternatives -- services becoming domain aware, etc18:36
jamielennoxnotmorgan: we've pushed all this way with HMT for that, i'd prefer to not leave it half done18:36
henrynash_shaleh: I don’t see it as simpler….I see it as a bandaid18:37
shalehhenrynash_: agreed18:37
notmorganjamielennox: i think domains are fundamentally still something services should be able / willing to act on18:37
stevemarjamielennox: right, i totally agree18:37
gyeedolphm, bring back service-scoped tokens!18:37
samueldmqdolphm: like adding the subprojects in the token ?18:37
ayounggyee,  a service shoulkd be a project18:37
jamielennoxdolphm: did you just say v4 /slap18:38
henrynash_notmorgan: and right now with users being tied to domains, making multipel domain system work as one will likely be also complex18:38
dolphmgyee: it never went away! https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/service-scoped-tokens18:38
dolphmjamielennox: i hope not18:38
gyeeayoung, I am not disagreeing18:38
ayoungso...lets get to what we want to have...even if it is impossible18:38
shalehayoung: ++18:38
ayounga scope should be specified like this18:38
dolphmjamielennox: the tricky part is not the keystone API in my mind, it's the auth context interface between auth_token and underlying services18:38
samueldmqnotmorgan: henrynash_ representing domains as proejcts should help other services adopting domains18:39
jamielennoxdolphm: interesting you should say that - next topic18:39
ayoungthat should fully specify the project.18:39
stevemari think we all need to review the spec henrynash_ has authored (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318605/12) only raildo and dolphm have commented on the most recent rev18:39
ayoungwe have no human friendly way of specifying a proejct deep in a hierarchy18:39
henrynash_samueldmq: yes, although we know have to do things like…..replicate my ldap domain configurations for one enterise becaue they want to add a new project tree18:40
raildostevemar: ++18:40
henrynash_(because teh domain has the ldap config)18:40
notmorganstevemar: i have a minor thing to toss on the end. will be a last-minute spec possibly18:40
notmorganstevemar: if we have time.18:40
stevemarnotmorgan: -2 in advance18:40
henrynash_I’ll need cloud admin rights to do that hat od thing18:40
ayoungnotmorgan, so you will -2 anything that lest us fully specify a project that way?18:40
jamielennoxhenrynash_: ++, ldap providers should have been given an idp_id you could share18:40
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notmorganayoung: i am going to -2 a proposal to make this a config switch.18:41
notmorganayoung: i've not -2'd the current proposals except where they break api contract18:41
ayoungnotmorgan, OK...so it has to be something enabled by default, and backwards compatible18:41
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stevemarayoung: that's usually what we hope for  :)18:41
gyeehow's that possible?18:41
notmorganayoung: yep. after that, I'm going to as the UX question - but that is a -1 from me at most18:42
notmorganif it sucks.18:42
ayoungthere were several other options we floated.  Some of the them suck, but maybe suck less18:42
ayounglooking at the JSON, we can specify a project name as an array18:42
notmorganayoung: but the -2 is very much incompat changes here *or* design for different experiences per cloud.18:42
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henrynash_dolphm, notmorgan: if we are going to use domains for this, then we will absolutely need nested domains18:42
ayoungthat was unfriendly from an env var18:42
henrynash_(which I know you love)18:42
ayoungbut I actually think it is nicer from a JSON perspective18:42
notmorganhenrynash_: and we then we run into this exact same argument with nested domains.18:43
gyeedon't we already support nested domains?18:43
stevemarayoung: that doesn't break API compat?18:43
dolphmoption #23578: make project names non-uqique, and 401 if people try to auth by name but the specified name is ambiguous. force auth by project id18:43
henrynash_gyee: ha!18:43
ayoungstevemar, nope18:43
raildogyee: nope18:43
notmorganhenrynash_: so, put this to rest first before we open that convo - because my answer is going to be the same with domains... except they still need to be globally unique18:43
ayoungstevemar, it is "in addition to"18:43
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notmorgandolphm: backwards incompat?18:44
ayoungthe question stevemar is what happens when we have 2 'p2' projects under a domain18:44
gyeeI thought we agreed on nested domains?18:44
dolphmnotmorgan: only if you start using conflicting project names?18:44
jamielennoxdolphm: problem is ambiguous can happen after the fact, so it worked until someone else added a projec with the same name18:44
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dolphmjamielennox: right, that's my point18:44
ayoungproject_name=['dom','p1','p2',p3']   versus  project_name=['dom','p99','p2',p3']18:44
notmorgandolphm: that kindof just breaks our whole api contract ...18:44
dolphmjamielennox: allow users to opt into this poor UX18:44
dstanekgyee: nested domains in addition to nested projects?18:44
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stevemari don't think we're going to figure this out in the next 15 minutes, please comment on the spec instead18:44
ayounguntil we had that, users could still do project_name='p2'  domain_name='dom'18:44
henrynash_stevemar: Ok, let’s clsoe this c topic for now18:45
dstanekstevemar: ++ let's move on18:45
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gyeedstanek, right18:45
dstanekround and round we go18:45
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jamielennoxdolphm: that's not users, that's deployers, and we would always be surprising users with something that's very new18:45
ayoungno not one yet18:45
stevemarhenrynash_: anything else you're looking for here before i switch?18:45
dolphmfaster, faster!18:45
ayoungone last thing18:45
samueldmqlet's continue on the spec18:45
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henrynash_stevemar: nope, that was …err.. fun18:45
ayoungit can be a property of the domain, not of the overal server, whether to allow this18:45
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ayoungand it should be18:45
dolphmayoung: no18:45
ayoungit should be disabled by default18:45
notmorganayoung: no.18:45
ayoungdolphm, yes18:46
ayoungnotmorgan, yes18:46
stevemardolphm: was that 'faster, faster!' for me? :)18:46
notmorganayoung: same argument as before. NO.18:46
ayoungnotmorgan, no it is not18:46
dolphmstevemar: for dstanek18:46
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ayoung1.  on the domain is discoverable18:46
ayoungit changes nothing by default18:46
ayoungand once it is set, it does not break other domains18:46
jamielennoxpeople don't do that discoverability - they never have18:46
ayoungbig difference is the last18:46
ayoungjamielennox, does not matter18:47
notmorganayoung: and it can never ever ever ever be set after a domain is created18:47
notmorganayoung: ever18:47
jamielennoxmatters hugely, it's also another request i need to make on every auth18:47
ayoungnotmorgan, why not?18:47
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notmorganayoung: unless it has no children18:47
notmorganayoung: you just broke working auth.18:47
ayoungnotmorgan, it cannot be "unset" once there is a conflict18:47
samueldmq13 mins left18:47
stevemarjamielennox: how much time do you need ?18:47
notmorganayoung: it should immutable.. anyway move on18:48
ayoungI'll step down18:48
notmorgani don't think this is going anywhere here.18:48
jamielennoxstevemar: it's mostly a please go look18:48
* ayoung returns the conch18:48
jamielennoxstevemar: 5 min18:48
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* stevemar takes the conch18:48
stevemar#topic Reservations Spec18:48
*** openstack changes topic to "Reservations Spec (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:48
* stevemar hands the speaking stick to jamielennox18:48
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ayoungreservations are the approach we should have taken for ever18:49
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ayoungnotmorgan will, of course, hate them18:49
jamielennoxok, so the service user permissions spec i was pointing everyone to a few weeks ago got poo-pooed by the mailing list and security groups18:49
notmorgannope, i really like this spec18:49
jamielennoxthe new version is tentatively called reservations18:49
ayoungnotmorgan, AWESOME!18:49
jamielennox#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330329/18:49
ayoungnotmorgan, I was really afraid we would be at loggerheads over this...cool18:49
notmorgani like the ephemeral nature of the passed on info18:49
gyeeisn't trust reservations?18:49
jamielennoxnot to toot my own horn - but i really like this and what it can open up in future18:49
ayounggyee, really similar18:49
notmorgani like that it happens behind the scenes18:49
bknudson_reservations have a limited lifetime?18:49
notmorganand i like that it opens us to validate the user's authz at the edge and possibly offload down the line.18:50
ayounggyee, so, a trust is recorded.  A reservation is like an ephemeral trust based on a "fill in the blanks" template18:50
notmorganit is most everything [with better details] I've wanted for a while18:50
jamielennoxbknudson_: reservations are only for the lifetime of a single user request18:50
ayoung"I, state your name, do grant to party of the first part..."18:50
jamielennoxit immediately solves the token expiration problem18:50
notmorganjamielennox: you'll need [impl. detail] define what that "lifespan" enforcement is18:50
bknudson_how to enforce that? nova might save the reservation to the database.18:50
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gyeeayoung, oh, like a school permission slip18:50
jamielennoxand long term can solve dynamic and centralized policy18:50
gyeeschool field trip permission slip18:50
ayoungCan we brainstorm a better name?18:50
jamielennoxdolphm: and possibly multi-project tokens18:51
notmorganjamielennox: but that is something i'm willing to punt on as this is wayyyyy better than today.18:51
ayoungjamielennox, so...where did the name "reservation" come from?  What was the inspriation18:51
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jamielennoxnotmorgan: yea, there are going to be a lot of details to figure out18:51
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notmorganjamielennox: i also like that this is another opaque blob we deconstruct18:51
notmorganjamielennox: so people can't reach in and "figure things out" and make the data in the blob a contract.18:52
jamielennoxayoung: i did a bit of a pondering section - basically if i was starting from scratch i would combine authn/authz/quota etc into a pre-check, and basically what you have there is a reservation of resources18:52
* ayoung just realized this will play really nicelt with caching18:52
notmorganwe can encode what we need in it.. and change as needed18:52
jamielennoxayoung: it applies less without quota - but i have no better names18:52
notmorganjamielennox: anyway i'm a fan of this spec.18:52
stevemarjamielennox: i need to read the spec, but in general i like it18:52
dstanekjamielennox: how do you enforce that reservations can't be replayed?18:52
gyeetold you guys, if we have PKI token, we won't need this reservation business18:52
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notmorgandstanek: i think that is future looking.18:53
ayoungdstanek, it can be replayed18:53
stevemargyee: those are deprecated :)18:53
jamielennoxso my goal is to get people reviewing because there's a lot of follow on that i want to make sure we get right and not have like a HMT naming issue18:53
notmorgandstanek: it is still a bearer token, but it's just internal only18:53
dstanekwhy is it better than a token then?18:53
jamielennox(sorry henrynash_)18:53
ayoungthe idea is that the scope of the reservation is longer lived than the users origianl token18:53
bknudson_dstanek: the token expires18:53
ayoungcan we call these...resource-tokens?18:53
bknudson_or is invalidated by the user18:53
jamielennoxdstanek: so it will still expire, but it's only created by the service18:53
breton_> Keystone then issues a reservation to the service. The reservation contains the majority of data present in the token however is only valid for a specific operation.18:53
notmorgandstanek: it's not passing the user's authz around, no expirations. it's service to service communication isolation18:53
breton_> A reservation is entirely a service side concept and will never be exposed to users.18:53
jamielennoxusers will never see this18:53
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breton_I don't get it. Will it be a REST API call?18:54
dstanekso it's a token with no definitive expiration18:54
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notmorgandstanek: tbd on how that happens.18:54
jamielennoxdstanek: no, it's an authorization for one operation with an expiry18:54
lbragstadand it's still a bearer token?18:54
bknudson_auth-token middleware gets the reservation when it gets a token?18:54
jamielennoxit's not a token that can be reused for arbitrary things18:54
lbragstadso what happens if its compromised?18:54
shalehlooks like we all have reading and a chat about it next week18:55
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jamielennoxbknudson_: auth_token exchanges user token for a reservation to confirm they can perform the operation18:55
breton_shaleh: ++18:55
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dstanekhow do we enforce that only a service can use it?18:55
notmorgandstanek: policy, is the best we can do.18:55
jamielennoxyep - but please ask questions cause it makes sense in my mind, but i'm not particularly good at getting this stuff out18:55
shalehjamielennox: thanks for getting the ball rolling on this18:55
jamielennoxdstanek: service only operations18:55
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bknudson_auth_token could check the roles on the service token18:55
dstaneknotmorgan: so only a service user can use it?18:55
notmorgandstanek: that is the idea18:55
lbragstadis it signed by the service client?18:56
jamielennoxdstanek: yep - completely transparent to users18:56
notmorgandstanek: and only a service user shyould be able to validate it.18:56
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notmorgandstanek: it's not "auth" token validation.18:56
jamielennoxlbragstad: i put signed as an option - more likely it'd be fernet style and validated by keystone18:56
notmorgandstanek: it'd be something different.18:56
dstanekand what about lbragstad's question?18:56
bknudson_does auth_token have to go to keystone to validate the reservation or can it validate locally?18:56
notmorganbknudson_: worth asking, if you don't mind distributing keys, auth_token could validate it.18:56
jamielennoxbknudson_: same thing, if we think we can do it via signing it's worth a try but i'm gunshy on that18:57
lbragstadthat would require a distributed fernet repository if we build it on fernet, right?18:57
dstanekthis seems similar to what i've been saying about scoping a token to a particular operation18:57
jamielennoxlbragstad: no, same as today, keystone would validate18:57
notmorganlbragstad: yeah it's impl details.18:57
bknudson_do we want to invalidate a reservation if the user is disabled?18:57
stevemarjamielennox: shouldn't we be going toward removing service users instead of reinforcing them18:57
breton_why do we need user tokens then?18:57
notmorganbknudson_: i'd say no. not middle of the operation18:57
breton_just to pass it from keystone to keystonemiddleware?18:57
notmorganbreton_: user -> service communication18:57
lbragstadbknudson_ would we expect a service to keep doing something for a user if that user was disabled?18:57
jamielennoxstevemar: we will always need the concept of an operation being performed internally vs externally - whether we do PKI or service users of whatever there i don't care18:58
notmorganlbragstad: if the user requested an action, aka boot a vm, i'd expect that to continue if the user was disabled18:58
bknudson_getting a large image from glance can take a long time, so user might be compromised in that time.18:58
shalehPKI is just a service user with another name18:58
lbragstad(2 minute warning)18:58
jamielennoxbknudson_: no, reservations are fairly short lived (one user operation) so they will disolve when the op is finished18:58
gyeeno, PKI is a way to validate the data independently18:58
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bknudson_jamielennox: you assume that user operations are short. they are not always.18:58
dstanekis this effectively similar to a service ignoring the expiration on a token if it's used by a service user?18:59
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samueldmqstevemar: 1 minute left18:59
stevemaroh no, morgan had something18:59
bknudson_maybe the server that got the request could invalidate the reservation when it sees the operation is complete.18:59
jamielennoxbknudson_: i'm aware but i can only be used for that operation however long it is18:59
stevemarwe're out of time18:59
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stevemargo comment on jamie's spec :)18:59
jamielennoxdstanek: no, we validate expiry once - at the time of the initial request18:59
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notmorganreally quick then.18:59
stevemarnotmorgan: chat in -keystone?18:59
dstanekjamielennox: that's what i mean18:59
notmorgani'm going to propose a way to remove paste.ini19:00
stevemarnotmorgan: sounds diabolical19:00
samueldmqout of time :(19:00
notmorganbut not lose the functionality19:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:00
notmorgananyway lets let -infra have the channel.19:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 21 19:00:22 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:00
ayoungWifi dropped19:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-21-18.00.html19:00
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openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-21-18.00.txt19:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-06-21-18.00.log.html19:00
jeblairnotmorgan: that's a nice mic drop :)19:00
fungianyone from the infra team around for another exciting weekly meeting?19:00
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notmorganso fungi isn't angry at us ;)19:00
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notmorganso uh... i'm "here"19:00
notmorgani can't go hide now, can i?19:01
fungithis week we have topics proposed by nibalizer, fungi, pabelanger19:01
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fungiokay, let's get this party started19:03
fungi#startmeeting infra19:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 21 19:03:16 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:03
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:03
fungi#topic Announcements19:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)"19:03
fungi#info The planned CI outage Friday, June 17 was postponed due to insufficient advance notification to the community19:03
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fungipabelanger has a topic proposed later in the meeting to reschedule19:03
fungi#info Reminder: late-cycle joint Infra/QA get together to be held September 19-21 (CW38) in at SAP offices in Walldorf, DE19:03
fungi#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/QAInfraNewtonSprint19:04
fungi#info Reminder: StoryBoard Bug Squash this week! (tomorrow and thursday, 22nd and 23rd)19:04
fungi#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-June/004402.html19:04
fungi#topic Actions from last meeting19:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)"19:04
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fungi#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-14-19.02.html19:04
clarkbfungi what sorts of rsvp are sap/organizers looking for on that midcycle? also double check but gerrit isbhaving a meetup there at the same time too so possibilities for collaboration there too19:05
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anteayaclarkb: have you a link to the gerrit meetup info?19:05
fungilooks like there were no action items recorded last meeting19:05
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clarkbanteaya: I can try to find it19:05
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anteayaclarkb: thanks19:05
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fungiclarkb: probably need to check with mkoderer on rsvp details if they're not in the updated info he added to that wiki page19:06
fungi#topic Specs approval: PROPOSED Priority specs cleanup/update for Newton cycle (fungi)19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: PROPOSED Priority specs cleanup/update for Newton cycle (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:06
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fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/331903 Priority specs cleanup/update for Newton cycle19:06
mtreinishfungi: the only rsvp I know of is putting your name on the table at the bottom of the wiki page19:06
fungimtreinish: thanks19:07
clarkbanteaya: ^19:07
anteayaclarkb: thanks19:07
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fungiso anyway, as most of you following the infra ml probably saw, i proposed a (later than i would have liked) update to our priority specs list for the remainder of the newton cycle19:07
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anteayamorning jhesketh19:08
fungithis is mostly cleanup based on the discussion which transpired earlier in that thread19:08
fungiwe can (separately) discuss if we want to add new priorities as additional patches19:08
anteayafungi: I'm fine with what you proposed but did reply asking about ipsilon19:08
fungibut wanted to get this reset out of the way first19:08
anteayawhich I guess can be a separate discussion and possiblely a new patch19:08
fungianteaya: awesome, thanks. i think that's possibly a prime candidate for a priority addition19:08
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fungibut we're on hold with it pending smarcet returning from his honeymoon to discuss www.o.o feature needs19:09
fungi#info Council voting is open on "Priority specs cleanup/update for Newton cycle" until 19:00 UTC, Thursday, June 2319:09
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anteayafungi: very good, thanks19:10
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fungisimilarly, i think jhesketh had a good suggestion that we should probably still prioritize solving some of our log publishing stability issues, but that's going to require making a choice between a couple of new options we have outlined19:10
fungiwhich is why it's not (yet) reflected on the updated priorities19:11
fungi#topic Specs approval: PROPOSED Finglonger (nibalizer)19:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: PROPOSED Finglonger (nibalizer) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:11
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/310948 Finglonger19:11
nibalizerwe talked about this at the summit19:11
fungithis looks interesting19:11
nibalizerthere are a couple ideas on how ti implement it19:11
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funginibalizer: you're going to need to add it to the index.rst file19:12
nibalizerbut before i go down that rabbit hole it seems like we should get some consensus?19:12
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bkeroAre we talking about possibly implementing it ourselves?19:13
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funginibalizer: consensus about the four described implementation options i guess?19:14
mordrednibalizer: I'm broadly in favor of the concept - I do not have smart things to say yet about specific implementations19:14
bkeroDoes anyone think that the listed 'alternatives' are a good idea?19:14
fungii think focusing on zuulv3 is a great idea, but i don't see how it's directly related19:14
nibalizerfungi: i think the plan in general needs some consensus? i could also go down the path of an implementation if that is what people want19:15
ianw"There are tasks that are not managed in puppet that we currently do not have good process around." <- like what?  is debugging/firefighting considered a task that this would be used for?19:15
fungi(one of the listed alternatives)19:15
mordredyah - I think focusing on zuul v3 is also going to happen19:15
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mordredianw: "hey - can we restart gerrit it's seeming slow" is a good example19:15
clarkbis rundeck the large java app that dossnt come with good record kwwping like jenkisn?19:15
fungiwas that one just in there as a representative of "our effort is better spent solving other problems for now"?19:15
fungi(the zuulv3 reference i mean)19:15
anteayaclarkb is on a phone19:16
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clarkbanteaya: yes surrounded by boxes19:16
nibalizerclarkb: its a java app, i dont have much experience with it19:16
jeblairfungi: with zuulv3 potentially able to log into production machines and run playbooks, it may be possible to implement similar functionality with it.19:16
nibalizerthe whole point of it is tk keep an audit log though, so i assume it does19:16
fungijeblair: thanks--that was the connection i was missing19:17
jheskethWithout much knowledge on the subject; why not rundeck?19:17
jeblairfungi: but that's far enough off, and complex enough, that i think doing something like finglonger makes sense now19:17
clarkbnibalizer: but its all one off hand edited scripts with no history like jenkins jobs iirc19:17
clarkbjhesketh: because ^19:17
clarkbit basically reintroduces all of the jenkins issues we spent 4 years fighting until we deleted it19:17
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mordredI don't think rundeck is a fit for us19:17
nibalizerbut if you look at implementation #4 its possible to do with a cronjob and a git hook19:18
jeblairespecially since finglonger is trying to be pretty simple.  and if we *do* start doing things like that with zuul3, we will have the experience of finglonger to inform how do use it19:18
mordredjeblair: ++19:18
* jhesketh is a slow typer this morning19:18
mordredalso, finglonger is just a great name19:18
anteayajhesketh: well it is early for you19:18
jesusaurhas ansible made any mention of open-sourcing tower? or is that a pie-in19:18
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jesusaur-the-sky alternative?19:19
mordredit will happen19:19
mordredtimeline is the question19:19
nibalizerjeblair: yea, i want finglonger to be stupid sinmple19:19
clarkbanyways I like the idea psrticularly for precanned but infrequent tasks19:19
mordredclarkb: ++19:19
anteayajesusaur: I was thinking pie-in was a new buzzword19:19
nibalizerthen it shoukd inform the CD parts of zuulv3 yea19:19
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jesusauranteaya: ha, no, just my - and enter being too close together19:20
mordredanteaya: I think pie-in should be a new buzzword19:20
anteayamordred: I agree19:20
Zarabuy-in as a result of convincing pie-charts?19:20
clarkbrestart gerrit, rebuild nodepool images, etc19:21
anteayaZara: oh, thinker you are19:21
nibalizermake a new volume, add to afs, clean out files created by accident19:21
jheskethIf tower isn't opened sourced soon somebody else will beat them to it. I'd prefer to use existing tooling but I realise that requires waiting around on  unknowns19:21
anteayasave the check and gate queue19:21
jhesketh(And we could be the ones to beat them to it)19:21
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fungii think as long as these scripts and their triggered invocation go somewhere to be very, _very_ carefully reviewed for possible risk (not only in their direct effects but also the side effects of publishing their output), it's not particularly any more dangerous than what we already do with puppet/ansible and our current interactive work19:21
mordredthere is also the thing that we'd still have to figure out how to tell tower to do something19:22
nibalizerjhesketh: also if you look at #4 finglonger can be made very very easily19:22
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* reed drools at open source tower :)19:22
nibalizerfungi: es19:22
mordredlike, if tower was open sourced tomorrow, we'd STILL need to do work19:22
mordredin terms of triggering, etc19:22
mordredso I imagine that finglonger could still have a place in a post-tower-open-source world19:22
jeblairwe would need some kind of very long finger to reach up to the button in the tower19:22
mordredjeblair: yup19:22
nibalizerjeblair: groan19:23
funginibalizer: honestly, i'm more concerned about publishing the output since that can't be reviewed directly until it's public19:23
clarkbfungi: thats a good point19:23
mordredfungi: speaking of that - we should really check out ara more at some point19:23
clarkba task could cat private key data19:23
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mordredand see if/how it can/cannot help us19:23
nibalizerfungi: well with precanned things we can socialize a rule that the first time a job runs it doesnt publish to www19:23
fungiclarkb: well, we'd presumably catch something overt in reviewing the proposed command19:23
nibalizerto verify19:23
mordrednibalizer: ++19:23
fungibut yeah, maybe this is only for commands we've already run in production at least once and are comfortable they don't leak any sensitive data in their output (as well as comfortable they are unlikely to break something, obviously)19:24
nibalizersice i inagine most finglonger scripts to end in | ssh logs.openstack.org cat - > /var/www/something19:24
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funginibalizer: or, as mordred says, ara19:25
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nibalizereh maybe19:25
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nibalizerwe went down that road with puppetboard, and now injust want shell output19:26
mordredara is orthogonal to this discussion19:26
funginibalizer: yep, i can sympathize19:26
nibalizeri also expect more finglonger scripts to be shell than ansible19:26
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nibalizerbut thats a guess19:26
mordrednibalizer: oh, I do not expect that at all19:26
fungioh, good point, not "shell run via ansible" but just "shell"19:26
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clarkbjesusaur: google says its a modular phone so I have no idea19:26
jesusaurclarkb: yeah, I got the same thing19:27
nibalizermordred: we will see19:27
mordredI do not like the idea of having a bunch of non-ansible shell scripts being run by another system19:27
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nibalizerits a comminity web ansible report viewer thing19:27
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mordredlike, I don't like that idea very much19:27
fungiclarkb: jesusaur: an ansible dashboardy thing dmsimard has written and proposed as project in gerrit19:27
odyssey4meclarkb jesusaur https://github.com/dmsimard/ara19:27
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clarkboh that thing19:27
mordredbecause then we'd have THREE systems for running things19:27
clarkbya thats orthogonal19:27
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nibalizeroh its in our stuff now? neat19:27
fungidunno if that new project change request has merged yet, but he's wanting to maintain it through gerrit anyway19:28
fungibut regardless, side topic19:28
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nibalizeris there enough in the spec to vote on it?19:28
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jesusaurmordred: so you're thinking finglonger would look like a playbook with the special timer trigger magic?19:28
jesusaurrather than a collection of shell scripts?19:28
mordredjesusaur: I'm thinking neither thing19:29
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mordredI'm thikning it would be something that would run ansible19:29
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mordredwe already hav ea system for running ad hoc commands on hosts19:29
mordredwe just don't hav ea system to drive it19:29
mordredso I REALLY don't want to see a new system invented for running ad hoc commands19:29
fungiso it sounds like there is some consensus the goal with finglonger still makes sense (as discussed in austin) but you still have four implementation options (listed at "three ideas..." yay math!) which need to be decided between i guess?19:29
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nibalizerone was a late addition19:30
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nibalizerso we coukd vote in the spec then the people working on it (probably me) could build what works and makes sense19:31
fungii posit we want to see the implementation section whittled down to one design before we put this up for council vote19:31
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fungithe design can change, but at least say what you expect to try first19:31
nibalizerdo people have strong implementation opinions?19:31
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fungimordred seemed to have a very strong implementation opinion, for example19:32
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fungi(that opinion being, we should trigger ansible somehow)19:32
mordredwell, I have a strong opinion on one portion :)19:32
bkeroI think the general idea of code as a liability applies here19:32
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fungibut yeah, it's nibalizer's spec, i'd at least like to see his list of implementations to try turned into a "nibalizer's preferences" ordering19:33
nibalizerok i will flesh out only one implemenation secrion of the spec then19:33
nibalizeror a list haha19:33
fungiyou can mention alternate implementations, just suggest one19:33
mordrednibalizer: can you just implement all of the options, and then we can all sit in a room and judge you?19:34
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fungisounds like the plan for barcelona19:34
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funginibalizer: also see my (trivial but important) -1 when you're revising19:35
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fungianything else on this one?19:35
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fungithanks nibalizer! this looks like it is shaping up to be awesome19:35
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fungi#topic Priority Efforts19:36
*** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Meeting topic: infra)"19:36
fungii'll refresh this list once we decide on my proposed update19:36
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fungithen we can have a run-through hopefully next week19:36
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fungi#topic New date for zuul.o.o / static.o.o trusty upgrades (pabelanger)19:36
*** openstack changes topic to "New date for zuul.o.o / static.o.o trusty upgrades (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:36
fungipabelanger is still not in here19:37
* mordred hands fungi a slightly used pabelanger he found at the mall19:37
fungihowever, he left us a lovely etherpad19:37
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pleia2mordred: he's sticky19:37
clarkbdid we get feedback that more lead time was needed? I think we gave a couple weeks?19:37
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pleia2ick, mall things19:37
mordredpleia2: inorite?19:37
fungi#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/upgrade-zuul-trusty proposed maintenance notification19:38
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clarkbnot sure what constraints we are operating under here19:38
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anteayaclarkb: well we decided on a couple weeks, but the announcement didn't happen in time to give a couple weeks19:38
pleia2ah yes, I can make sure the announcement goes out this time19:38
clarkbah ok19:38
anteayaclarkb: so we knew about it but noone else did19:39
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fungii don't recall how much advance notice we planned for, but regardless there wasn't one as of last thursday so i suggested not doing it the following day19:39
anteaya<-- very slow library wifi, sigh19:39
jeblairit was published in locked filing cabinet in the basement19:39
mordredjeblair: that's a totally reasonable place to publish notice19:39
pleia2Beware of the Leopard.19:39
fungihowever i had discarded the sign on the lavatory door saying "beware of teh leopard"19:39
anteayafungi: we had planned for 2 weeks19:40
anteayafungi: but I think one week is enough, but yeah not 24 hours19:40
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fungianteaya: yeah, sort of two weeks. at the meeting on the 7th we said we'd do it on the 17th, so more like a week and a half (to give time to have an announcement go out at least a week ahead)19:41
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anteayaso next Friday July 1 is Canada Day so pabelanger and I will be on holiday19:41
fungiso anyway, with that in mind, who's around on july 1st? it's the day before a popular holiday weekend in the usa so i expect there may not be a lot of infra-root admins on hand19:42
anteayaand the week following I may or may not be in China, I don't know yet19:42
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mordredfungi: I will be around19:42
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anteayabut we don't need me for this19:42
mordredthe week following I will definitely be in China19:42
fungithe release schedule is pretty open up through mid-august19:42
pleia2I need to leave a bit early on the 1st, so it's not a great day for me19:43
clarkbI can likely be around on july 119:43
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pleia2the 8th is better19:43
fungiwith the exception of july 11-15 for n219:43
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jeblairi think i'm available on the 1st19:43
* bkero will be around for moral support19:43
fungii can do july 1 with no problem19:43
fungianybody want to volunteer to update pabelanger's proposed announcement to say july 1 and then send it? that give us a solid week+ of warning19:44
pleia2I can do that19:44
jeblair(yes, i am available on the 1st)19:44
fungii'm comfortable upgrading static.o.o and with jeblair around for support i'm comfortable with the zuul.o.o upgrade as well19:44
fungithanks pleia2!19:44
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fungi#action pleia2 send maintenance notification for static/zuul server upgrades 20:00 utc friday july 119:45
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fungi#info CI outage Friday, July 1 so we can upgrade the operating system for zuul.openstack.org and static.openstack.org, 20:00-22:00 UTC19:46
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fungianything else we need to discuss about the upgrade/scheduling?19:46
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anteayaI'm good19:47
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fungii don't see any other late entry topics on the agenda, so...19:47
fungi#topic Open discussion19:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:47
fungidid anybody see that sports match where the team in one color triumphed over the inferior specimens wearing that other color?19:48
anteayaso tomorrow's storyboard bug sprint is sort of a new contributor onboarding thing too19:48
anteayatomorrow and Thursday19:48
anteayaso pleae attend and bring a friend19:48
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fungii'm quite excited. i'd like to spend a fair amount of time focused on storyboard bits since i haven't really up to now19:48
pleia2thanks for the reminder!19:48
anteayathank you19:48
clarkbfungi: I didnt, the game was broadcast on fs1 instead of fox19:48
anteayapleia2: fungi looking forward to seeing you there19:48
bkerofungi: i am a fan of citynamesportsteam19:49
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jeblairfungi: i did not see it, but everyone else in my town did and i heard them yelling about it and was able to follow it fairly well nonetheless.19:49
fungibkero: those losers? they can't compare to othercitynamesportsteam19:49
pleia2I should have zaro's hiera changes in for the gerrit<>sb dev integration by EoD today19:49
anteayaManchester United!19:49
AJaegerjeblair asked for consensus on adding back the files section on project-config, see https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330821/ - how do we want to continue there?19:49
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anteayapleia2: yay, thank you19:49
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fungijeblair: yeah, when i lived in an apartment in chapel hill for a number of years, i could follow the games by the thumping coming from my ceiling, the general hooting through walls, and of course the incessant honking of horns all over town afterward19:50
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jeblairi think it would be really nice if we could get more folks to weigh in one way or another on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330821/19:50
anteayaafter the world cup in germany the germans made noise for an entire 10 minutes, then got in their cars and went home19:51
anteayait was a sight to see19:51
ZaraManchester is the worst place to live if you want to avoid football fans19:51
anteayaZara: or going there on the train too19:51
Zarajust being anywhere within 200 miles, probably19:51
jeblairsince it reverts a change with 2 +2s, none of whom have voted on the revert19:51
bkeroanteaya: i am in germany, they are still making noise19:52
anteayabkero: really? how interesting19:52
bkeroyeah, its a special day too. Lots of live music all over berlin19:52
jeblairi think reviews from clarkb, fungi, yolanda on 330821 would be especially good19:52
docaedospeaking of football, any more thoughts about my IRC spec? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/319506/19:52
zaropleia2: i Will not be installing storyboard plugin with puppetry. my patches won't land in time.  youll just need to give me the token19:52
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anteayaI did find though there there was only one file clip that could be played for audio/video demonstrations19:52
fungiclarkb: any chance you can wrangle phone access to weigh in on 330821? you were the other concerned voice earlier19:52
pleia2zaro: ok, we'll chat after the meeting19:53
AJaegerjeblair: clarkb just said on #openstack-infra that he's fine with reverting it, let me find his quote19:53
AJaeger"AJaeger: I have already said my piece if others want to take the time to review and keep those up tondate thats fine"19:53
clarkbya I am ok with it if other people want to be maintaining rukes as files move and are added/removed19:53
fungimy only caveat is that we need to make sure we have at least one job which runs on any change even if it's a new filename we haven't predicted19:54
fungithere have been points in time where that was not the case, and then we couldn't merge changes19:54
AJaegerThe layout change is the one that always runs - and I'm not going to approve again a files section for that. Been there, reverted ;)19:54
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jeblairi think that was a long time ago19:55
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fungilooks like we've run out of open discussion19:56
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AJaegerok, I'll ping yolanda for the change and if she's fine, let's merge it...19:57
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docaedofungi: except for my IRC topic (don't forget you're the spirit guide for it ;) )19:57
fungidocaedo: indeed--i tried out your demo server for a couple days too. seemed to reconnect and do stuff nicely!19:58
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anteayafungi is everyone's favourite spirit guide19:58
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docaedoI think of this as a sort of eternal september except for IRC instead of usenet19:58
fungilet's hope not?19:58
docaedooh wait, that might not turn out so great...19:58
fungii keep waiting for eternal september to end19:58
mordredfungi: we're moving mailing lists to NNTP???19:59
fungiit actually basically has. there's almost nobody on usenet anymore. not even spammers19:59
mordredthat's what I just heard at leats19:59
anteayawell if the spammers have left...19:59
fungiwe could claim it for our own and stake our flag there19:59
mordredanteaya: that's what I'm saying!19:59
fungianyway, that's it for time this week19:59
fungithanks everybody!20:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jun 21 20:00:07 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-21-19.03.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-21-19.03.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-06-21-19.03.log.html20:00
fungitake it away, ttx20:00
ttxannegentle, dims, johnthetubaguy, mestery, mtreinish, morgan, sdague : around ?20:00
* edleafe lounges by the window20:00
ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jun 21 20:01:05 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
* Rockyg munches on a nectarine in the back20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
flaper87edleafe: still trapped in your car ?20:01
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ttxHi everyone... Our agenda for today is:20:01
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:01
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edleafeflaper87: Nope, not today :)20:01
ttxA few easy ones to start20:01
ttx#topic Add current house rules for reference20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Add current house rules for reference (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/33044220:01
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ttxLast meeting I signed up to document the current rules we follow to fast-track some specific changes20:01
* thingee is about to step out of a taxi and run to the nearest desk ... might be MIA for a second20:01
ttxThis is obviously a living document so feel free to propose subsequent changes20:02
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ttxHas enough approvals to pass now, so will approve unless someone yells20:02
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dims++ ttx20:02
ttx#topic Update team tags for some projects20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Update team tags for some projects (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/32932720:03
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ttxThis is your regular team diversity tag update, courtesy of flaper87 this time20:03
flaper87I just ran the validation script and ttx helped out to double check20:03
ttxAlso has enough approvals to pass, so will approve now unless someone screams20:03
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ttxI won't count that as a scream20:03
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russellbyou should clarify the type of scream next time, i suppose20:04
flaper87it's pure joy coming out of my lungs20:04
flaper87russellb: ++20:04
russellba scream of opposition20:04
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mordredrussellb: can we write up a definition of screams and a categorization system for them?20:04
dimsand tag them!20:04
ttx#topic Remove Packaging-Deb project team20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Remove Packaging-Deb project team (Meeting topic: tc)"20:04
russellbmordred: sounds like the only way to move forward20:04
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/32943020:04
jrollmordred: you might call it a scream catalog20:04
mordredjroll: ++20:04
ttxSo... I proposed this because Packaging-Deb is the only official project team without any visible activity20:04
ttxand we now require project teams to show some activity before we accept them20:04
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notmorgandropping to unofficial status seems reasonable20:05
ttxI understand that the team will need some infra support, and that being official facilitates prioritizing that up20:05
notmorganuntil they have activity20:05
mordredI'm not in favor of removing this as the project team in question is currently in the middle of good-faith effort to implement the needed things20:05
russellbi also see no harm in keeping it if they're trying to mobilize20:05
ttxBut I'm not (yet) convinced that infra support is a prerequisite before the team can start working on the OpenStack side20:05
notmorganit would be super easy to re-add but i'll defer if someone says they are making the effort20:05
mordredwhich is the result of the discussions that were had on this very topic at the summit20:05
ttxmordred: any reason why the git repositories are not migrated from git.debian.org ?20:05
ttxI see there is a Mirantis server building packages from pushes to git.debian.org, I suspect it could read from git.openstack.org instead20:05
* notmorgan assumes they are w/ the commit message and mordred's comment20:05
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AJaegermordred: any discussion on mailing lists? Any IRC meetings for the project?20:06
mordredbecause migrating them without the testing support would be a downgrade, and we're currently working on adding the things we've specced out to make that make sense20:06
mordredAJaeger: zigo and fungi have been working in the infra channel, also pabelanger and I have been involved20:06
ttxmordred: why would it be a downgrade ? I'm pretty sure the Mirantis CI can read from git.openstack.org just the same20:06
dhellmannit sounds like there's work here, it's just not easily visible because of where it's happening?20:06
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mordreddhellmann: yah20:06
mordredit's work being done by the project team in question it's just happening in infra land at the moment20:07
dimswe can ping zigo to see what's needed i guess20:07
flaper87If there's work going on, I'm good with deferring the removal for a bit longer20:07
notmorganwfm then20:07
zigoI'm here.20:07
ttxdheI'd argue it happens outside of openstack, in git.debian.org20:07
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mtreinishmordred: sure, but do we want something as an openstack project that doesn't have an artifacts in openstack git?20:07
mordredso - debian packaging is a bit of a beast20:07
dimsooh there's detailed notes from zigo in the review20:07
mordredand getting infra able to have artifacts for it at all is non-trivial20:07
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ttxmordred: I don't see that as a prerequisite though20:08
mordredthe work required is understood and under way20:08
flaper87what problems would it cause to the packaging-deb team if we approve this patch ?20:08
fungiright, i don't necessarily disagree with removal from the governance list (tc oversight doesn't really provide direct benefit to the work going on now, nor would it be hard to re-add later), but there is work being done20:08
zigottx: So, we would just use gerrit, but packages wouldn't be published? How do you expect to even try to install the produced packaged then?20:08
flaper87Just want to lay out what the downsides of this patch for the debian team are20:08
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ttxzigo: how is that different from the current situation ?20:08
fungii think packages could also be published without it being in the governance list20:08
zigottx: I've explained it on the review. Currently, each git push produce a package, and then we can run a full all-in-one install of OpenStack and run tempest.20:09
zigoWe don't have this in OpenStack infra.20:09
mordredI would actually not be in favor of openstack publishing packages without it in the governance list20:09
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zigoWe can only build openstack-pkg-tools, and because that one isn't published in a Debian repository, other packages can't use it as a build-dependency, and therefore cannot build.20:09
ttxzigo: My point is, today you're using git.debian.org and using Mirantis CI to build packages. Tomorrow you could use git.openstack.org and Mirantis CI to build packages, at least temporarily20:09
notmorganmordred: i'm 100% behind that stance20:09
mordredI think that is not in keeping with how the other projects work - and distro packages by nature are things people will start to rely on no matter what we say20:09
fungithe reason we originally pushed to have this be "official" was that we were still in the days of the stackforge/ git namespace and infra didn't want to see a hundred repos need to be renamed to the openstack/ namespace once it applied to be an official project-team20:09
thingeemordred: not sure if I necessary agree with that. distributions can produce their own packages without our involvement20:09
zigottx: How would I trigger the build?!?20:10
russellbpeople are doing stuff, do we want to encourage those people to keep doing more stuff close to openstack?  i think yes, so let's just leave it be.20:10
thingeealthough it would be nice to part of the community20:10
mordredthingee: I was responding to fungi saying that _We_ could publish packages for it without it being official20:10
ttxzigo: how do you trigger the build currently ?20:10
dhellmannzigo : how do you do it now?20:10
notmorganthingee: i don't want *us* to publish packagses uniless they are official20:10
thingeeyou can't stop distributions doing their own thing20:10
zigodhellmann: I have a git recieve hook.20:10
mordrednotmorgan: ++20:10
thingeenotmorgan: so, debian publishes them ...20:10
thingeewhat am I missing?20:10
notmorganthingee: thats all. not that it has to be official for someone to publish packages.20:10
zigoI'm all for having a better solution and move to gerrit *NOW* if someone has an idea.20:10
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thingeewell if you're not in the governance... sounds like you're not official20:10
mordredso - before we re-engineer the solution in this meeting20:10
notmorganzigo: i think it's fine to defer the removal for now.20:10
thingeenotmorgan: ^20:11
thingeeyou're just like a lot of things. part of the ecosystem20:11
ttxLook, I totally agree with the endgame. I just don't get why you can't migarte teh git repositories now. Nobody answers that question20:11
dhellmannmordred : yeah, I was just trying to understand why moving would break things20:11
flaper87As I said, if there's work going on, I think we could just defer the removal for a couple of months20:11
notmorganthingee: if we have a project publishing packages under the auspices of openstack, i'd rather it be an official project than not.20:11
mordredttx: I'm purposely not answering that question because at the moment there is a plan to get things migrated20:11
thingeedhellmann: +1 ... I don't think this has been answered yet20:11
dims+1 to defer removal for now. but would like to hear a plan that works soon-ish20:11
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flaper87I don't think the removal would impact the work going on but keeping it for a couple of more months won't hurt for sure20:12
annegentle(here, sorry I'm late)20:12
thingeenotmorgan: totally, but you can't stop the world from publishing their packages20:12
mordredthingee: that's not what any of this is about20:12
notmorganthingee: if it's just storing the data in git, sure, but this is more of a using infra to publish to an official repo.20:12
fungiit feels like a catch-22 if we're avoiding publishing packages unless the project is an official part of openstack, but avoiding making it official because work to build the current packages is happening outside openstack infra20:12
thingeenotmorgan: so simply, you're official if you're in this governance list20:12
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thingeeif you're not, you're not official.20:12
ttxit feels like the work could happen on openstack side with no loss with just a s/debian/openstack/ on the Mirantis CI side20:12
zigottx: That's what I've been trying to do. I'm sorry if I'm not good enough at it using the current OpenStack infra, but I think everyone from infra can vouch for the fact I've been trying for the last 12 months20:12
mordredthingee: nothing is about stopping the world from publishing packages ... the question about package publication is about whether or not Infra publishes a package repo20:12
notmorganmordred: ++20:12
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flaper87mordred: thingee notmorgan can we go back to discussing the patch and not who can publish packages?20:13
mordredI do not believe that infra should publish openstack packages without the associated project being official20:13
thingeewell based on ecosystem rules, infra could still be part of things.20:13
flaper87I don't think this work is there yet20:13
thingeemordred: +120:13
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dhellmannmordred : +120:13
zigoThe thing about publishing packages is *NOT* about having them accessible for the general public.20:13
ttxmordred: we publish plenty of tarballs for projects not official20:13
zigoIt's about having them available as build-dependencies to build other packages.20:13
mordredttx: but we do not publish docs for them20:13
mordredand yes - what zigo just said20:13
fungii agree that people will come to rely on whatever we publish, no matter what we say about it being unofficial, but people come to rely on tarballs and git repos of unofficial projects we publish today as well20:14
mordredwe need a package repo available so that we can cross-test inter-dependencies of the packages with the rest of the things that are also in master20:14
thingeettx: sounds like we may need to revisit things of infra's involvement then if there is some consensus around publish things and infra involvement20:14
ttxhmm, ok, I can buy that. I still don't understand why you can't migrate the git repositories today though.20:14
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dhellmannmordred, zigo : I think the thing that bothers me here is that we have an official project using a bunch of private resources still, and that makes it impossible for someone not involved to see what's going on at all. Which, while I don't think anything untoward is going on, doesn't set a good precedent.20:14
notmorganttx: no hooks - he could if he watched the gerrit stream instead of the direct git hooks20:14
fungiit sounds like the mirantis ci doing continuous package builds would need some reworking to switch from some sort of web callback to consuming gerrit events20:14
mordreddhellmann: I TOTLALY agree and I would not do this this way if I had it to do over20:15
ttxnotmorgan: Ah. I see20:15
notmorganttx: it is doable, but may be throw-away effort in the long term20:15
mordreddhellmann: but right now, I do not think it helps anything to temporarily remove the project from governance20:15
ttxnotmorgan: ok, thanks you20:15
notmorganttx: since zuul/etc will handle that for him :)20:15
zigodhellmann: So, mostly, you're saying we don't have enough visibility, right?20:15
ttxmordred: ok, morgan gave mae a good reason for deferring20:15
dhellmannmordred : I mostly agree. Still, it would be nice to see some sort of public activity. Where is the coordination of this work happening?20:15
thingeeso my comment in the review of not immediately voting for things is because mordred has a history in the community of coming through with things. what is the timeline of things actually migrating?20:15
notmorgandhellmann: would a status update on the ML cover it?20:15
notmorgandhellmann: like... semi-regular?20:15
jrollmordred: dhellmann: I think there's a question there, is the project team doing stuff using private resources, or is that mirantis doing those things and the project team is working toward moving all of that?20:15
jrollI almost feel like it's the latter20:16
mordreddhellmann: right now in #openstack-infra20:16
dhellmannjroll : yeah, I think you're right.20:16
dimsjroll : it's just poor zigo doing all the work there :) (not mirantis!)20:16
notmorganvs strictly irc, i'm ok asking zigo to provide progress/updates to the ML every so often so we have clear visibility to point at vs "irc logs"?20:16
fungiultimately, i suspect a lot of this would be solved (or wouldn't have come up) if the governance change to add all those package repos had depended on a project-config change to create them first20:16
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notmorganfungi: possibly20:17
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dhellmannfungi : yes, in future I think that's a good way to arrange things20:17
mordreddhellmann: ++20:17
fungiwe have more policy/process/expectatins around that now, but didn't back when that governance change was merged20:17
fungier, expectations20:17
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dhellmannnotmorgan : yeah, some mailing list updates would help make the project seem more alive for those of us not reading #openstack-infra all day20:17
notmorganzigo: would you mind sending a quick status update to the ML on this process every so often?20:17
notmorganzigo: it would help :)20:17
zigoWhat you guys have to realize as well, is that what you call "mirantis CI" is just a git hook to build packages using Jenkins. So, we go in interrative ways with "git push" until it builds correctly on all target distros. That's *VERY* far from the Gerrit workflow, where things are checked, and then patch approved. I don't think we could just move from git.debian.org to gerrit without having the full blows and wissels20:17
zigobecause of that.20:17
johnthetubaguy_yeah, that's a good point for next time, on the depends-on20:17
notmorganzigo: and hopefully isn't too much extra effort while the -infra stuff is being worked on.20:17
zigonotmorgan: Ok, will do.20:18
notmorganzigo: fantastic. :)20:18
dhellmannzigo : ok, well, it's pretty easy to make jenkins watch a git repo instead of using an in repo hook20:18
fungizigo: there is a gerrit-jenkins plugin you can use to trigger jobs from the gerrit event stream, probably extrement similar to what you already have, but we can discuss that elsewhere20:18
mordreddhellmann: right - but then we're pushing untested commits into openstack repos20:18
fungier, extremely20:18
dhellmannmordred : are they being tested in their current repos?20:18
mordredbecause the current process is to push and test and push and test until it turns green20:18
mordreddhellmann: only post merge20:18
dhellmannI see20:18
ttxmordred: zigo asks for an extension of the grace period until end of August, does taht sound reasonable ?20:18
mordredttx: yes20:19
flaper87ttx: yes20:19
notmorganttx: wfm20:19
mordredttx: I think we can have made the progress we need by then20:19
ttxI can live with that20:19
thingeemordred: hi, still asking about the timeline for things to migrate?20:19
fungifrom an infra perspective, seems like a reasonable request to me20:19
johnthetubaguy_+1 from me20:19
dhellmannok, well, I don't think we need to actually change anything aside from having some public discussion on the ML about where things stand, so zigo or mordred please post that20:19
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mordredthingee: luckily, even though there are a lot of repos, the process is the same for all of them, so once we have it done for one, we have it done for all20:19
mordreddhellmann: ++20:20
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flaper87mordred: last famous words20:20
ttx#agreed grace period for Packaging-Deb extended to end of August20:20
mordredflaper87: :)20:20
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dimsmordred : carved some time in your new gig for this? :)20:20
ttx#action zigo or mordred to update the list on status, if only to explain to contributors wanabees where to go to participate today20:20
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ttxbecause ultimately that's my concern20:20
mordreddims: of course - debian packaging is very important to my new overlords :)20:21
* amrith makes a note to take present for mordred to ann arbor next week20:21
thingeemordred: heh20:21
ttxWe say we have a team, but there is no clear way to join it20:21
zigoBTW, would you feel better if we moved out of OFTC in #debian-openstack to something in freenode under #openstack-something?20:21
mordredttx: agreed20:21
dimsttx : yep. agree20:21
dhellmannzigo : yes20:21
ttxzigo: that would definitely help20:21
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notmorganzigo: would be nice to be here on freenode.20:21
thingeezigo: that would be a good start20:21
zigoI can arrange that.20:21
ttxwill have to do it anyway20:21
zigoWhat channel name do you propose?20:21
mordred#openstack-debian ?20:21
zigo#openstack-deb-pkg ?20:21
notmorganzigo: openstack-deb-packaging ?20:21
mordredanyof those20:21
notmorganor what thingee said20:21
flaper87zigo: ++20:22
* fungi votes we just move the openstack channels from freenode to oftc instead20:22
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ttxalso duplicating/moving the content in that alioth page to the wiki or some doc repo would help too20:22
dimsLOL fungi20:22
AJaegerzigo: or at least have the channel you currently use documented in the governance repo20:22
notmorganfungi: hehe20:22
mtreinishfungi: heh20:22
thingeestole it from mordred 300ms later20:22
mordredwarning - we've hit a max at irc channel registrations and are still working on a solution to that20:22
dhellmannzigo : please add the channel to the team description in the governance repo when you have it set up20:22
mordredso, you konw, if the irc channel takes a bit to be fully integrated, it's also not zigo's fault :)20:22
AJaegermordred: only for gerritbot, not for registeration overall20:22
mtreinishmordred: what's the max?20:22
zigofungi: I can arrange help from the OFTC IRC ops if we move there! :)20:22
notmorganmordred: a second bot!20:22
notmorganmordred: :P20:22
AJaegermtreinish: 12020:22
ttxOK, I'll abandon the review20:23
mordrednotmorgan: yah. a second bot is, in fact, the answer20:23
notmorganmordred: sadly =/20:23
zigoIIRC there's even already a channel for it.20:23
mordredAJaeger: yah. that20:23
thingeefreenode was not ready for the big tent20:23
AJaegernotmorgan: patches welcome ;)20:23
fungizigo: yep, so can i (and we've talked to them before) but moving all of the openstack community is no small task. we've considered it more than once20:23
zigoThat I already added...20:23
* thingee misses the days of just openstack-dev20:23
russellbclearly we should self host a hip new chat thing20:24
fungii recommend hanging out in the same channel on both oftc and freenode just because many in the debian community may expect to find you on oftc20:24
ttxanything else on that topic ? Anyone disagreeing on extending the grace period ?20:24
notmorganrussellb: i hear we should just use slack20:24
mordredrussellb: actually - turns out hipchat and slack both have user max limits20:24
flaper87ttx: let's change topic :)20:24
mordredthat openstack is in excess of20:24
* ttx empties a bucket of eels on notmorgan20:24
fungii actually reside in equivalents of many of our more popular channels on oftc in case we ever need to make an emergency move20:24
russellbhow about rocket.chat20:24
mordredrussellb: yup20:24
russellbanyway, moving on20:24
mordredthey max out around 2k users20:25
ttx#topic Add 'type:horizon-plugin' tag20:25
*** openstack changes topic to "Add 'type:horizon-plugin' tag (Meeting topic: tc)"20:25
flaper87mordred: pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff.... peanuts20:25
ttxfocus, team, focus20:25
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/32947920:25
russellbthis seems like an easy +120:25
* dhellmann thinks of peanuts20:25
ttxTL;DR: This is a new type: tag for deliverables so that we can describe which ones are Horizon plugins.20:25
dougwigrussellb: don't jinx it.20:25
flaper87+1 to this one!20:25
ttxwas missing a couple +1s last time I looked20:25
flaper87there are 7 now20:25
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thingeetag very much appreciated20:26
ttxLooks like we have the number now20:26
ttxAlright, approved20:26
mtreinishttx: should we propose similar tags for other plugin repos? (like devstack or tempest)20:26
ttxmtreinish: we looked into that -- there aren't enough to justify it right now20:26
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ttx(from a release management perspective)20:27
flaper87mmh, it's weird there aren't enough devstack plugins20:27
flaper87I mean, surprising, mostly20:27
david-lyleif you count the repos that are both service and plugin then there are20:27
ttxshoudln't prevent anyone from proposing though20:27
dhellmannmtreinish : eventually, when there are more examples of each20:27
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dhellmanndavid-lyle : from a release perspective, if it's in the same repo, we only care that it's a service20:27
david-lylethe problem is one repo is now being used for 3 things20:27
mtreinishttx, dhellmann: well tempest has very few standalone plugins (most went in repo) but devstack should have a fair number of them20:27
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david-lyledhellmann, for release true, for anyone else it's confusing20:28
ttxdavid-lyle: I guess the tag describes deliverables that are standalone plugins20:28
dhellmanndavid-lyle : we're looking for ways to organize the content of releases.openstack.org to make it easy to find the deliverable you're looking for20:28
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dhellmannmtreinish : are they in their own deliverables (not repos)?20:28
ttxAlso the horizon plugin names were pretty inconsistent, so that makes sure users can identify them all20:28
mtreinishdhellmann: http://git.openstack.org/cgit everything that starts with devstack-plugin as a start20:28
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mtreinishthere might be others there too (I'll do a ctrl+f for devstack)20:29
dhellmannmtreinish : are those things that users want to download and use? or are they developer tools that aren't released?20:29
dhellmannfor releases.o.o we only care about things that are actually being released20:29
mtreinishdhellmann: there was nothing in the horizon tag about releases (unless I missed that)20:30
ttxThis is a bit orthogonal to the topic, maybe we can discuss that in open discussion if there is time left ?20:30
dhellmannthis isn't about categorizing everything we have, it's about categorizing things that show up on the releases site20:30
dhellmannttx: ++20:30
ttxwe should have some time20:30
dimsmtreinish : interesting angle20:30
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ttx#topic Add 'level playing field' requirement20:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Add 'level playing field' requirement (Meeting topic: tc)"20:30
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/32944820:30
ttxSo... I think that the value "OpenStack" provides, as an open source organization, is to create workspaces where open collaboration across multiple organizations can happen20:31
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ttxTo recognize that, I'd like us to say that an official "OpenStack project" should be something anyone from any organization can join and contribute to as an equal20:31
ttxAnd if a project team is proposed in the future with such a scope that developers from a specific organization (or a closed set of specific organizations) have a structural advantage, we should not make it an official OpenStack project20:31
ttxIt can be an unofficial project alright, but we should limit the "official OpenStack project" label to things that are level playing fields20:31
mordredI agree that goal and sentiment20:31
sdaguehow does this apply to things like oslo.vmware or oswin ?20:31
russellbit applies per project team20:32
ttxnow it's just a guideline, and we'll have to interpret it, but I think it's a statement we need to make20:32
maishskttx:what sparked this? Anything specific?20:32
russellbso, to Oslo20:32
russellbnot oslo.vmware20:32
ttxmaishsk: no20:32
johnthetubaguy_+1 but sdague has a good question20:32
ttxmaishsk: it's more preventive20:32
dimsrussellb : right, that was my observation on the review20:32
russellbsimilar to it applying to Cinder overall, not Cinder drivers20:32
mordredI like russellb's take on that question20:32
flaper87I think ttx replied to that on the review20:32
ttxsdague: I answered on the review20:32
mordredcinder and oslo are the projects20:32
thingeerussellb: +120:32
mtreinishttx: is there any relationship with the single vendor diversity tag?20:32
sdaguewinstackers is a dedicated team20:32
dimsif oswin wants to be under big tent then they will run into trouble20:33
russellbsdague: ah, yes, that may get hit by this20:33
thingeemtreinish: I think that's just a result of giving your organization an advantage in a project?20:33
ttxoslo.vmware is part of Oslo which is a level playing field. We judge project teams, not specific deliverables20:33
thingeepoor diversity20:33
mordredsdague: but are they all at microsoft and are microsoft people the only ones who really could conceivably join?20:33
mordredthat would be my litmus test I tihnk20:33
thingeefor some, not all20:33
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ttxwinstackers, yes, we'll have to look into that one if someone can point to an unfair advantage20:33
russellbi'm really not that concerned though20:33
mtreinishthingee: right, so does that mean having the tag mean it's not a level playing field?20:34
sdagueyou need windows licenses to be effective with it20:34
russellbit's clearly about windows integration, not creating a whole full project / API that only works on windows20:34
mordredsome single-vendor teams are just single-vendor because nobody else happens to care- not because there is a structural advantage to people at the company in question20:34
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thingeemtreinish: I don't think so. I meant to say it *could* be the  result of poor diversity20:34
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ttxsdague: I'm not sure anyone in winstackers benefits from a structural advantage though20:34
mtreinishthingee: ah, ok20:34
sdagueanyway, it's an edge, and it's fine to have judgment on edges20:34
russellbsdague: ++20:34
ttxsdague: definitely an edge20:34
mordredsdague: I think it would be hard to argue that windows licenses are a scarce commodity, much as I don't personally have any20:34
mordredand yes - wonderful edge to discuss20:34
ttxsdague: probably the only one in the current project list on the edge20:34
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sdagueok, it's close enough to nova, that I figured I'd raise it, as it's critical for hyperv support20:35
thingeemtreinish: I think poor diversity could also happen when one company has an interest in something in openstack, but none competitors/others aren't interested at the same time.20:35
ttxmtreinish: so that's an interesting question20:35
annegentleI don't think this is a tag, it's a preventative measure to avoid a project governance application we wouldn't accept?20:35
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dimsttx : mordred : do we want to say "type:service"?20:35
sdaguegiven that nova doesn't have out of tree driver support, but some of the in tree drivers use support libraries for complex logic20:35
ttxmtreinish: basically, most non-level playing fields are single-vendor as a result20:35
notmorganannegentle: more, clearly defining grounds of why the application wouldn't be accepted20:35
ttxmtreinish: BUT to me it's a transient state, not an end goal20:36
notmorganannegentle: less about "preventing", some maybe, but others would need assement20:36
thingeenotmorgan: +120:36
dimsoswin exists just to serve nova, cinder, etc20:36
annegentleI talked ttx's ear off about this, that I personally find many many more social structures can prevent a level playing field, but if this is one measurable barrier to entry then I'm ok with documenting it.20:36
notmorganannegentle: i think winstackers is the shining example of needing assesment (and probably would be ok) but could be hit at face value.20:36
dimsand they requested oslo as a home to start with and we declined20:37
ttxannegentle: yes, this one is about structural advantage to specific organizations due to the way the project team scope is set up20:37
ttxbut there are other forms of discrimination20:37
sdagueis the thinking that this is really what applied in the poppy situation?20:37
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ttxsdague: for some of us yes20:37
sdaguebecause unless you have a big CDN contract, the project isn't useful20:37
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ttxsdague: this is about contribution, not usage20:37
dhellmannisn't this also in anticipation of the fallout from the neutron stadium dissolution?20:38
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sdaguedhellmann: is it? I guess that was part of my question for examples20:38
ttxsdague: nobody in the Poppy team had an unfair advantage against others20:38
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ttxsdague: so it was a level playing field20:38
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dhellmannsdague : maybe that's just me? I think having this sort of rule in place will be useful when all of those driver teams start thinking about what to do next20:39
david-lylemy concern is that the wording is so vague and subjective that this provides no real benefit over the current subject and vague criteria which is the TC makes a judgement call20:39
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ttxdhellmann: IF the stadium dislocates and BigCorp wants to set up a project team to host the development of their driver which connects to pricy proprietary hardware... would fall into that new rules yes20:39
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dhellmannttx: right20:39
sdagueI'm fine if this is about not having 20 official vendor specific projects for networking20:39
annegentlettx: you just answered the question I was typing :) welldone sir20:39
ttxsdague: ++20:40
sdaguebut, I'd be more fine if we just said that20:40
dhellmanndavid-lyle : how would you make this more specific?20:40
thingeedavid-lyle: I'd very much like each one to be carefully decided on a case-by-case basis by the tc.20:40
sdagueinstead of the vague level playing field language20:40
ttxsdague: I think saying that openstack projects present a fair open collaboration space is useful20:40
amrithdavid-lyle, I don't believe it would be easy to make this more specific without calling out specific projects by name.20:40
dhellmannthis language doesn't seem vague to me, I don't understand why it seems that way to others.20:40
amrithbut I would love some alternate verbiage.20:40
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thingeedhellmann: I agree20:40
flaper87dhellmann: ++20:40
amriththe language strikes me as pretty clear, and a very solid basis to interpre on.20:41
ttxyes, it is pretty clear wording. Thanks to amrith20:41
amriththx ttx20:41
notmorganthe first iteration was much more vague20:41
mesterydhellmann: Agree20:41
notmorganthis is this is straight forward enough to cover basing decisions on it.20:42
sdaguedoes this apply to fuel? or tripleo, which are the product installers for single companies?20:42
notmorgansdague: fair question.20:42
mtreinishsdague: that's a good question20:42
thingeesdague: do I need special stuff to contribute to fuel?20:42
ttxsdague: why would it ?20:42
dhellmannsdague : it would apply to any project driven mainly by one company where that company pushed contributors from other companies out in some way20:42
sdague"The project shall not benefit a single vendor, or20:42
sdague      a single vendors product offerings"20:42
russellbin theory, from a technical standpoing, everything is there that you need20:42
ttxrussellb: exactly20:42
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mesterydhellmann: Not just pushed out, but provided barriers to even enter20:43
ttxsdague: you can take it and start your own Mirantis. No secret sauce20:43
russellbpolitics preventing cooperation more than technology20:43
flaper87I don't think neither of them benefit a single product/offering.20:43
dhellmannmestery : yes, that20:43
dhellmannrussellb : right20:43
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* amrith tries to parse flaper87's double negative20:43
dhellmannrussellb : well, both20:43
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sdaguebarriers to entry come in lots of forms20:43
flaper87amrith:  crap, I knew I shouldn't have done that! :P20:43
thingeesdague: I would expect the TC would make this argument as ttx mentioned if it was brought up. just like any other project on a case-by-case basis20:43
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annegentlettx: does this patch landing mean any changes to the current projects list? I think not but want to be sure.20:43
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ttxannegentle: not unless you propose one20:44
thingeeannegentle: yes current list20:44
flaper87amrith: thanks for pointing out. I was like: "either or neither... o well"20:44
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thingeeannegentle: but as ttx mentioned, it would have to be proposed and discussed20:44
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annegentlethingee: ttx ah. okay.20:44
ttxThis has enough votes to pass if I vote for it. Anyone objecting ? I bet we'll have a fair number of abstentions waiting for the first case-by-case happening20:44
annegentledoes this force any additional conversation about how individual projects are governing their own drivers?20:44
dimssdague : one barrier that i have heard is that "mirantis has all the fuel engineers, so i am not able to hire folks to work on fuel related stuff"20:44
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russellbdims: that's pretty weak20:45
johnthetubaguy_Well, I like merging what we have as a good starting point, and see how we go20:45
dhellmanndims : that's only a barrier if those engineers refuse to work with anyone who doesn't work at mirantis20:45
thingeeannegentle: that would be completely up to them and their relationship with the vendor/drivers20:45
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thingeewith their*20:45
annegentleI still have a concern about interpreting the lack of driver example...20:45
dimsrussellb : dhellmann : right, giving an example that i heard recently20:45
annegentleI'm not abstaining, I'm still thinking...20:45
thingeesome projects have made it pretty clear they want nothing to do with their drivers, and to focus purely on the interface they provide.20:45
amrithdims conversely if you wanted to contribute a fuel plugin, the fuel team is welcoming. so I submit to you that it is an open and level playing field20:46
russellbi wish we had a bit more consistency around driver approach, not sure why the battles have to be so different across projects20:46
dimsamrith : agree20:46
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russellbbut that's for another day ...20:46
annegentlethingee: right. okay.20:46
dhellmannrussellb : ++20:46
thingeerussellb: +120:46
ttxOK, I'll approve it now20:46
flaper87ttx: ++20:46
annegentlerussellb: it isn't easy to understand from outside-in20:46
annegentlerussellb: so, yeah +120:46
ttxunless someone else wants to formally register their vote20:46
russellbfor sure20:46
russellbnot easy to understand from the inside-in20:47
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ttxalrigth approved20:47
ttx#topic Open discussion20:47
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ttxI have 3 topics20:47
russellbno TC meeting next week?20:47
dimsSo no meeting next week?20:47
ttxWe'll have most TC members in Ann Arbor next week for the leadership training, so we'll skip that meeting20:47
dhellmannfor those interested, https://review.openstack.org/332465 will reflect the new type:horizon-plugin tag20:47
ttxNext meeting on July 5th20:47
ttxWe have (ahem) a small delay in the P/Q naming process20:48
notmorganttx: i am going to probably skip jul 5th, fwiw.20:48
thingee+1 skip20:48
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notmorganand +1 to skip next week.20:48
ttxI'll approve that delay since at this point it looks like a typo20:48
sdaguejuly 5th is often a holiday in the US20:48
sdaguedepending on org20:48
notmorgansdague: yeah and a lot of people may take the day off as well20:49
thingeesdague: food coma recovering from bbq