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| hongbin | #startmeeting zun | 03:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 16 03:00:20 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 03:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 03:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'zun' | 03:00 |
| hongbin | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2017-05-16_0300_UTC Today's agenda | 03:00 |
| hongbin | #topic Roll Call | 03:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:00 | |
| kevinz | kevinz | 03:00 |
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| pksingh | hello | 03:01 |
| kiseok7 | hello o/ | 03:01 |
| lakerzhou | lakerzhou | 03:01 |
| hongbin | thanks for joining the meeting kevinz pksingh kiseok7 lakerzhou | 03:02 |
| hongbin | let's get started | 03:02 |
| hongbin | #topic Announcements | 03:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:02 | |
| hongbin | 1. Welcome Fengshengqin to the core team | 03:02 |
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| hongbin | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-May/116467.html | 03:02 |
| kevinz | welcome! | 03:02 |
| hongbin | 2. Boston Summit Recap | 03:02 |
| hongbin | There are several requirements gathered from the boston summit, i tried to summarize it as following: | 03:03 |
| hongbin | 1. Support running containers in VMs. | 03:03 |
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| hongbin | 2. Container network and storage are considered as essential features. | 03:04 |
| hongbin | 3. These features are considered to be useful: Capsule, NFV, pass secrets to container, acceleration resources (i.e. SRIOV, GPU). | 03:04 |
| hongbin | 4. Make the project mature to attract adoption (consider getting some tags from https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/tags/index.html). | 03:04 |
| hongbin | 5. Revisit the direction of Kubernetes integration | 03:04 |
| Shunli | :) | 03:04 |
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| hongbin | Shunli: hey, welcome to the meeting | 03:04 |
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| hongbin | For #1, that is because there are some use cases for using vm as a isolation | 03:05 |
| hongbin | in addition, ask operation to deploy zun without touching the compute node might be easier for them | 03:05 |
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| lakerzhou | Hongbin, for #4, do we have an official installation guide? | 03:06 |
| hongbin | For #5, the feedback is that it is confusing to have k8s integration in the roadmap | 03:06 |
| hongbin | lakerzhou: yes, i think official installation guide is a must | 03:07 |
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| hongbin | lakerzhou: and there is a BP for tracking that | 03:07 |
| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/zun-installation-guide | 03:07 |
| lakerzhou | hongbin, thanks for clarification, I missed the BP | 03:07 |
| hongbin | ok | 03:07 |
| hongbin | lakerzhou: i would need your help to clarify the nfv parts :) | 03:08 |
| hongbin | lakerzhou: will rely on you about that for the requirements | 03:08 |
| kevinz | Sorry my hexchat has been killed by antivirus.. | 03:08 |
| kevinz | Just rejoin... | 03:08 |
| hongbin | kevinz: ack | 03:09 |
| lakerzhou | hongbin, sure, I will try my best. | 03:09 |
| hongbin | ok, i finished my announcement | 03:09 |
| hongbin | any other announcement from our team member? | 03:09 |
| hongbin | #topic Review Action Items | 03:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:09 | |
| hongbin | #topic Cinder integration (diga) | 03:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cinder integration (diga) (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:10 | |
| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/cinder-zun-integration The BP | 03:10 |
| hongbin | it looks diga is not here | 03:10 |
| hongbin | i am going to split this bp into two : 1. cinder driver, 2. fuxi driver | 03:10 |
| hongbin | that is because this BP might be too big so that the progress is slow | 03:10 |
| hongbin | i will talk to diga about that | 03:11 |
| hongbin | ok, next one | 03:11 |
| hongbin | #topic Introduce container composition | 03:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Introduce container composition (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:11 | |
| hongbin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/437759/ The design spec | 03:11 |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-composition The etherpad | 03:11 |
| hongbin | kevinz: want to drive this one? | 03:11 |
| kevinz | OK hongbin | 03:12 |
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| kevinz | The spec has been review in the last meeting. Also we have finished clarified the APIs | 03:12 |
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| kevinz | So I think maybe I can do the prototype now? | 03:14 |
| hongbin | kevinz: i think you can | 03:14 |
| kevinz | If there is something unconsidered, feel free to let me know:-) | 03:14 |
| kevinz | hongbin: OK | 03:14 |
| hongbin | ok, thanks kevin. i think the spec looks very close to merge , just need to wait for a while for further feedback | 03:16 |
| lakerzhou | Kevinz, quick question, does volume belong to a composition or a container. Do we distinguish the two cases? | 03:16 |
| kevinz | lakerzhou: If the volume is created from a yaml file , I think it belong to the capsule | 03:17 |
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| hongbin | from the k8s pod design, all containers inside a pod will share the volume, i think capsule might do something that is similar | 03:18 |
| hongbin | that is volume belongs to a composition | 03:18 |
| lakerzhou | kevinz, thanks, let me think about the use cases and discuss this later offline | 03:18 |
| kevinz | +1 hongbin | 03:18 |
| kevinz | lakerzhou: OK | 03:18 |
| hongbin | ok, any other comment for this topic? | 03:19 |
| kevinz | hongbin: do we have a bp about "support for port mapping" | 03:19 |
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| lakerzhou | Hongbin, my concerns was really about the expected behavor of volume for individual containers. | 03:19 |
| hongbin | kevinz: #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/support-port-bindings | 03:19 |
| hongbin | lakerzhou: what is the expected behavior? | 03:20 |
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| kevinz | hongbin: Haha I can reuse this, change port bindings from container host node to network container. | 03:21 |
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| lakerzhou | hongbin, if a volume does not belong to capsule, then should it be persistent? | 03:22 |
| pksingh | do we need port binding? can you please explain | 03:22 |
| hongbin | lakerzhou: i think you can think of this way (1) for in-capsule container, the volume belongs to the infra container, (2) for bare container (no capsule), the volume belongs to that container | 03:23 |
| hongbin | lakerzhou: in both cases, volume are mounted to a container (infra container or not) | 03:23 |
| kevinz | pksingh: In capsule, we need to binding container port to capsule port for external access | 03:23 |
| lakerzhou | hongbin, thanks for the clarification. | 03:24 |
| hongbin | kevinz: you don't have to use port binding for that | 03:24 |
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| hongbin | kevinz: how about using the --net=container:xxx option? | 03:24 |
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| kevinz | hongbin: you mean add one container to another container's network? | 03:26 |
| hongbin | kevinz: sort of, let the real containers join the network namespace of hte infra container | 03:26 |
| kevinz | hongbin: I see. | 03:26 |
| hongbin | kevinz: this is how I implemented sandbox in before | 03:27 |
| hongbin | kevinz: https://github.com/openstack/zun/blob/master/zun/container/docker/driver.py#L84 | 03:27 |
| hongbin | ok, any other comment? | 03:28 |
| kevinz | hongbin: Thx. I will check the code to see the details | 03:28 |
| kevinz | hongbin: Nothing from me :-) | 03:28 |
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| hongbin | ok, next topic | 03:28 |
| hongbin | #topic Support different container hosting types | 03:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Support different container hosting types (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:29 | |
| hongbin | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/vm-as-container-host | 03:29 |
| hongbin | i just wanted to get a quick feedback, do anyone have a comment on this bp? | 03:29 |
| hongbin | good idea? bad idea ? | 03:29 |
| zsli_ | no | 03:29 |
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| kevinz | one question. | 03:30 |
| kevinz | This will rely on heat to launch vm and container? | 03:30 |
| pksingh | how to run compute service on VMs? | 03:30 |
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| hongbin | pksingh: there are several options | 03:31 |
| hongbin | pksingh: we can either run a zun-compute process at each vm, or remotely talk to the docker api at the vm | 03:32 |
| pksingh | hongbin: hmm, i think if we do it remotely, then how scheduling and data collection will behave? | 03:33 |
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| hongbin | pksingh: yes, this is a challenge, an alternative is to have a lightweight agent running on each vm | 03:34 |
| pksingh | hongbin: yes that can be an option | 03:34 |
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| hongbin | pksingh: or simply move the whole zun-compute to each vm | 03:35 |
| pksingh | will vms and baremetals will co-exist in the system? | 03:35 |
| hongbin | pksingh: i think this is possible | 03:35 |
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| pksingh | how about multitenancy for VMs or it will be for sinngle user? | 03:36 |
| lakerzhou | VMs and Baremetals can co-exist in a cloud, but not in a same server. Right? | 03:36 |
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| hongbin | pksingh: i think the goal of running container on vm is using vm as an isolator, therefore, the vm has to belong to a tenant | 03:37 |
| hongbin | pksingh: and containers on a tenant must run on vms on that tenant | 03:37 |
| lakerzhou | +1 no multi-tenant within VM | 03:38 |
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| hongbin | however, baremetal could be different... | 03:38 |
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| pksingh | hongbin: when VMs would be created? | 03:39 |
| hongbin | pksingh: it could be dynamically created, or pre-created | 03:39 |
| lakerzhou | Hongbin, I thought baremetal would be the same. One tenant create a node via ironic, can other tenant use the node? I need to double check it. | 03:40 |
| hongbin | lakerzhou: i see, if the baremetal is provided by ironic, that it should be one tenant | 03:40 |
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| Shunli | +1 for baremetal still in tenant. | 03:41 |
| hongbin | lakerzhou: there are actually three targets: compute host, ironic instance, vm | 03:41 |
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| hongbin | i think we might make it generic, for example, add an attribute in a node that identicate whether this node can run containers on other tenants | 03:42 |
| hongbin | s/on/from/ | 03:42 |
| lakerzhou | hongbin, I agree compute host should support multi-tenant | 03:43 |
| hongbin | lakerzhou: yes, but nova instances might or might not | 03:43 |
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| hongbin | anyway, i will write a spec for this bp to clarify all the details | 03:44 |
| pksingh | hongbin: user will specify where it has to create containers, like VMs, compute hosts or Ironic BMs? | 03:44 |
| Shunli | oh,my poor network. get me crazy. :-( | 03:44 |
| hongbin | pksingh: i think user will specify a "target", the "target" decide how to provision the resource (i.e. container, vm) | 03:44 |
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| pksingh | target means where to run containers? | 03:45 |
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| hongbin | pksingh: kind of, it might contain more details if we want | 03:46 |
| pksingh | hongbin: i think this feature will great value addition to zun | 03:46 |
| pksingh | great :) | 03:46 |
| hongbin | pksingh: ++ | 03:46 |
| hongbin | any other comment ? | 03:47 |
| hongbin | #topic Open Discussion | 03:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)" | 03:47 | |
| hongbin | ok, just bring up topic if you have anything that needs to be discussed as a team | 03:48 |
| pksingh | hongbin: how was the response in summit this time ? | 03:48 |
| Shunli | I would like to bring up one topic to discuss. | 03:48 |
| hongbin | Shunli: go ahead | 03:48 |
| Shunli | I think bring the container created by K8s or others into zun and managed by zun will add great value to zun. | 03:49 |
| hongbin | Shunli: ack | 03:49 |
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| hongbin | Shunli: i guess lakerzhou will disagree with you :) | 03:50 |
| lakerzhou | :) I am. | 03:50 |
| Shunli | :-( | 03:50 |
| hongbin | we can have a short debate here | 03:50 |
| lakerzhou | Container created by k8ts should be owned by k8ts | 03:50 |
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| lakerzhou | shunli, we can discuss offline | 03:51 |
| lakerzhou | I am interested to learn a valuable use case if it is there | 03:51 |
| Shunli | But if zun cannot manage these containers, zun do not touch container deploy. where the containers come from to manage. | 03:51 |
| Shunli | I guess few pepole need create container one by one in zun. | 03:52 |
| pksingh | guys if you discuss on zun channel it will benificial for all of us :) | 03:52 |
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| hongbin | want to move the discussion to the zun channel? | 03:52 |
| pksingh | no no, i mean no offline discussion on the topic | 03:53 |
| pksingh | ob channel it will be good | 03:53 |
| pksingh | s/ob/on | 03:53 |
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| hongbin | pksingh: +1 | 03:53 |
| lakerzhou | k8ts own the life cycle of its containers, we cannot do much about it. If there is a real value, I guess k8ts would quick implement the feature | 03:53 |
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| Shunli | I do not think so. | 03:55 |
| Shunli | k8s is aim for deploy and orchestrcate the containers, It not definitely touch much about container mangement. | 03:56 |
| lakerzhou | If Zun can manage small cluster of containers well especially within the openstack infrastructure, there are many unique use cases such as HPC, NFV | 03:56 |
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| lakerzhou | orchestrate == life cycle management | 03:57 |
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| Shunli | seems time is up. maybe we can dissucss offline. | 03:59 |
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| lakerzhou | I will ask what zun can do to a container, but k8ts cannot. | 03:59 |
| lakerzhou | sure | 03:59 |
| hongbin | ok, all, thanks for joining the meeting, overflow at #openstack-zun channel | 03:59 |
| pksingh | bye | 03:59 |
| hongbin | #endmeeting | 03:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 03:59 | |
| Shunli | bye | 03:59 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 16 03:59:51 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 03:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-05-16-03.00.html | 03:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-05-16-03.00.txt | 03:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-05-16-03.00.log.html | 03:59 |
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| samP | Thanks...Zun | 04:00 |
| samP | Hi all for Masakari..o/ | 04:00 |
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| rkmrHonjo | hi | 04:00 |
| Dinesh_Bhor | Hi all | 04:01 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: Dinesh_Bhor hi! | 04:01 |
| sagara | Hi | 04:01 |
| samP | #startmeeting masakari | 04:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 16 04:01:24 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is samP. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 04:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 04:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: masakari)" | 04:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'masakari' | 04:01 |
| samP | sagara: hi.. | 04:01 |
| abhishekk | Hi | 04:01 |
| samP | abhishekk: hi | 04:01 |
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| abhishekk | samP: hi, how are you, how was the journey | 04:02 |
| samP | right after the summit, mightn not have updates...anyway..lets start with bugs | 04:02 |
| samP | abhishekk: still jetlag... too sleepy in daytime :) | 04:03 |
| abhishekk | samP: same here :) | 04:03 |
| samP | abhishekk: I hate to travel with time diffs... next time would be better..its AUS | 04:04 |
| samP | #topic critical bugs | 04:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "critical bugs (Meeting topic: masakari)" | 04:04 | |
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| abhishekk | samP: yes, but PTG will be in US again | 04:04 |
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| samP | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/masakari/+bug/1690768 | 04:04 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1690768 in masakari "Notification status will be "error" if recovered instance was "resized"." [High,New] | 04:04 |
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| samP | abhishekk: Right... | 04:04 |
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| rkmrHonjo | samP: Can I split the report to two reports? | 04:05 |
| samP | abhishekk: Im not gonna attend full PTG...:) | 04:05 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: why? | 04:06 |
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| samP | rkmrHonjo: why would you think so? I can only see one issue here. | 04:07 |
| rkmrHonjo | samP: I wrote two expected behaviour. but , IMO, I think that these are difference problems after that. | 04:07 |
| abhishekk | rkmrHonjo: have you checked sheve case with shelved_offload_time -1 i.e. never offload? | 04:08 |
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| abhishekk | i.e. instance is in shelved state and recovery happens? | 04:08 |
| rkmrHonjo | notification status will be going to error, this is severe issue. But, IMO, recovering "stopped->resized" instance as "active" is not severe. | 04:09 |
| samP | abhishekk: why would some one do that, shelved with -1? | 04:09 |
| rkmrHonjo | abhishekk: shelved_offload? This report tell about resize. Would you like to say that resize auto confirm? | 04:09 |
| abhishekk | rkmrHonjo: no this is different, we will test this scenario | 04:10 |
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| rkmrHonjo | abhishekk: Did you say that you tested recovering "resized" instance? And, notification status was "finished" when you tested? | 04:11 |
| samP | shelved with offload_time -1 is diffent scenario but sill could related to same situation, if node goes down. | 04:12 |
| abhishekk | samP: right, we will check this scenario | 04:12 |
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| samP | abhishekk: thanks... let us know the result.. | 04:12 |
| abhishekk | samP: sure | 04:13 |
| abhishekk | samP: will let you know on irc or will comment on same bug once done | 04:13 |
| samP | abhishekk: great.. thanks | 04:13 |
| rkmrHonjo | abhishekk: ah, sorry, I misunderstood that you already tested. | 04:14 |
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| abhishekk | rkmrHonjo: no problem | 04:14 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: you wants to split the report because, 1) Fix the notification status 2)Fix the recovery flow for resized state VMs | 04:15 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: ^^ Am I right? | 04:15 |
| rkmrHonjo | samP: yes. | 04:15 |
| rkmrHonjo | 1 is issue about notification status. But 2 is issue about instance status. | 04:16 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: correct, but those 2 are still related to same issue, right? | 04:17 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: If you think its better to split this, then please go ahead. | 04:18 |
| rkmrHonjo | samP: thanks. I'll split after that. | 04:18 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: sure, thanks. | 04:18 |
| samP | OK then, any other bugs..? | 04:18 |
| sagara | ok, nothing | 04:19 |
| samP | sagara: thanks. | 04:19 |
| samP | let's move to discussion | 04:19 |
| samP | #topic Discussion points | 04:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discussion points (Meeting topic: masakari)" | 04:19 | |
| samP | #link Recovery method customization https://review.openstack.org/#/c/458023/ | 04:20 |
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| samP | I think it doses make sense to add Mistral to alternative.. | 04:22 |
| samP | abhishekk: what would you think about adam's comment? | 04:22 |
| abhishekk | samP: ok, I will discuss with Tushar San and modify the specs | 04:23 |
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| samP | abhishekk: sure... | 04:23 |
| samP | #action samP Review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/458023/ | 04:23 |
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| samP | I will review this^^ | 04:24 |
| samP | Other Pike work items | 04:24 |
| samP | Notifying API progress: BP submitted | 04:24 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: thanks ^^ | 04:24 |
| abhishekk | samP: thanks, also review api documentation | 04:24 |
| samP | abhishekk: sure... I will do that | 04:25 |
| abhishekk | samP: could you please share blueprint link for notifying API? | 04:25 |
| samP | #action samP Review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/459516/ | 04:25 |
| rkmrHonjo | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/masakari/+spec/notifications-in-masakari | 04:26 |
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| abhishekk | samP: thanks | 04:26 |
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| samP | rkmrHonjo: thanks... | 04:26 |
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| samP | abhishekk: rkmrHonjo put the link | 04:26 |
| abhishekk | rkmrHonjo: thanks :) | 04:27 |
| rkmrHonjo | I and Takahara describe specs and implement from now on. | 04:27 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: thank you... | 04:27 |
| abhishekk | rkmrHonjo: great | 04:28 |
| Dinesh_Bhor | rkmrHonjo: let me know if any help needed | 04:28 |
| rkmrHonjo | Dinesh_Bhor: Thanks! | 04:28 |
| samP | Force Stonith: had some discussion with Adam about this. | 04:29 |
| samP | I will add spec for this one soo. Really sorry for the delay.. | 04:29 |
| samP | Improve the masakari-hostmonitor's implementation about detecting split-brain | 04:29 |
| rkmrHonjo | samP: Sorry, no update. I'll update next week. | 04:30 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: sure...NP | 04:30 |
| samP | Other are Just BPs with no specs. | 04:30 |
| samP | (1) Prevent from flapping feature | 04:31 |
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| samP | (2) Recoverable libvirt events customization | 04:31 |
| sagara | I'll add 'Prevent from flapping' BP | 04:31 |
| samP | sagara: sure | 04:31 |
| samP | sagara: We can discuss how to do this in separate session or IRC | 04:32 |
| samP | for (2) Recoverable libvirt events customization, this would be a BP for masakari-monitors. | 04:32 |
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| samP | Please add them when you have time.. | 04:33 |
| sagara | samP: thanks | 04:34 |
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| samP | Let's move to AOB | 04:35 |
| samP | #topic AOB | 04:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: masakari)" | 04:35 | |
| samP | About rpm packaging 2/3 done. 1 wating | 04:35 |
| samP | Once, it is done, I will fix the tags for all masakari packages. | 04:35 |
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| samP | Maxwell Li asked about ansible support for Masakari | 04:37 |
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| samP | #link Request Ansible support for Masakari http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-April/115944.html | 04:38 |
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| samP | I will discuss with him about how to proceed with this | 04:38 |
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| rkmrHonjo | samP: By the way, you fixed masakariclient package in pypi. thanks. I'll try to add it to global-requirements. | 04:40 |
| abhishekk | samP: ok, we will keep watch on ML | 04:40 |
| samP | rkmrHonjo: yes. But I have push 3.0.0 tag and need to add pip packging jobs to gate | 04:41 |
| samP | abhishekk: thanks... | 04:42 |
| samP | <<Request to all>> | 04:42 |
| rkmrHonjo | samP: Ok. Should I add it after you done? | 04:42 |
| rkmrHonjo | sorry for interrupting... | 04:42 |
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| samP | Sice we have done presentaions, HA session, in summit, now pepole may ask question about masakari in ML or IRC | 04:43 |
| samP | Please answer them if you can... or let me know if Im not there.. | 04:44 |
| abhishekk | samP: sure | 04:44 |
| sagara | OK, Sure | 04:44 |
| rkmrHonjo | samP: Sure. | 04:44 |
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| samP | I will also work with openstack HA community for add resorce-agents, and you all are welcome to openstack HA meetings | 04:46 |
| samP | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#High_Availability_Meeting | 04:46 |
| samP | Any other topics to discuss? | 04:47 |
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| abhishekk | samP: nothing from our side | 04:48 |
| Dinesh_Bhor | nothing | 04:48 |
| rkmrHonjo | nothing | 04:48 |
| sagara | nothing | 04:48 |
| samP | OK then, lets finish bit early... | 04:48 |
| abhishekk | Thank you all | 04:49 |
| Dinesh_Bhor | thanks to all | 04:49 |
| samP | OH. Dinesh_Bhor, I will replay to your mail about pacemaker | 04:49 |
| samP | thank you all... | 04:49 |
| rkmrHonjo | bye | 04:49 |
| samP | #endmeeting | 04:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 04:49 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 16 04:49:35 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 04:49 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-05-16-04.01.html | 04:49 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-05-16-04.01.txt | 04:49 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-05-16-04.01.log.html | 04:49 |
| samP | thank you all... | 04:49 |
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| sagara | thanks, bye | 04:50 |
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| seva1021 | привет всем | 12:26 |
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| davidsha | Hi | 14:02 |
| igordcard | Hi davidsha | 14:03 |
| igordcard | anyone else here for the ccf meeting? | 14:03 |
| reedip_ | hello | 14:03 |
| bcafarel | igordcard: (and others) hello | 14:03 |
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| igordcard | cool | 14:04 |
| igordcard | #startmeeting network_common_flow_classifier | 14:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 16 14:04:09 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is igordcard. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)" | 14:04 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'network_common_flow_classifier' | 14:04 |
| igordcard | agenda: | 14:04 |
| igordcard | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Neutron/CommonClassificationFramework#Discussion_Topic_16_May_2017 | 14:05 |
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| igordcard | #topic Spec status | 14:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Spec status (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)" | 14:05 | |
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| igordcard | the updated v15 has been reviewed by ihar, sean, louis and thomas... I haven't yet finished replying to everything but hope to do it soon | 14:06 |
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| igordcard | does anyone want to discuss anything that hasn't been brought up in the spec yet? | 14:07 |
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| davidsha | I'm good | 14:07 |
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| bcafarel | same here, did not update as there was nothing to add/-1 for me | 14:08 |
| bcafarel | most recent reviews have been close to "looks good" | 14:08 |
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| reedip_ | thats good | 14:08 |
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| igordcard | good good, I think now is mainly about polishing technical details that might still influence the API or usability | 14:10 |
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| igordcard | was talking to kevinbenton at the summit, and as soon as there's a general consistent agreement on this spec, it can be merged and the neutron-classifier repo made available | 14:11 |
| davidsha | igordcard: So the spec is going to be merged? will we still put it in a dev ref in neutron classifier repo? | 14:12 |
| igordcard | davidsha: yes to both I'd say | 14:13 |
| davidsha | cool! | 14:13 |
| igordcard | davidsha: the dev ref will will evolve to reflect the code | 14:13 |
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| reedip_ | we finalzed reusing the neutron-classifier repo, right ??? | 14:13 |
| igordcard | davidsha: initially will come from the spec | 14:13 |
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| igordcard | reedip_: finalized how? | 14:14 |
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| reedip_ | igordcard : asking if the old neutron classifier repo which was earlier created would be used for CCF Model ? | 14:15 |
| davidsha | I guess that we decided if we were just using neutron classifier | 14:15 |
| reedip_ | okk | 14:15 |
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| igordcard | reedip_: yes neutron-classifier repo + wiping it is the recommended option | 14:17 |
| reedip_ | igordcard : yeah thats what I was asking | 14:17 |
| igordcard | reedip_: also fine by kevinbenton.. it won't be an actual wipe as anyone can go back in history and retrieve the original neutron-classifier | 14:17 |
| reedip_ | igordcard : ok, gr8 then :) | 14:18 |
| igordcard | moving on.. | 14:18 |
| igordcard | #topic PoC status | 14:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "PoC status (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)" | 14:18 | |
| igordcard | I haven't put my hands in the code yet :( | 14:19 |
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| igordcard | how's it going davidsha ? | 14:19 |
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| bcafarel | same here I hoped to look a bit into it but that is still on my todo list :/ | 14:19 |
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| davidsha | So, I've addressed the comments left on the spec, and fleshed out all the resources. just working on the classification groups and then I'll move onto the unit tests and OpenStack client. | 14:20 |
| davidsha | left on the PoC* | 14:20 |
| davidsha | sorry | 14:20 |
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| davidsha | Are there any questions on the PoC? | 14:21 |
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| igordcard | the classification grouping, is it based on the v15 spec or the earlier ones? | 14:23 |
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| davidsha | Latest one | 14:23 |
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| igordcard | cool cool | 14:23 |
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| igordcard | you're the main ccf dev at the moment so feel free to roast the spec if something isn't really attainable or for any other reason | 14:24 |
| davidsha | Sure! >:) | 14:25 |
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| igordcard | :) | 14:25 |
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| igordcard | while we have no access to the repo, I'd recommend squashing all pending changes in a single patch, I've had the experience in the past of dealing with 4+ dependent patches on gerrit and it's not easy to update/test/repeat | 14:26 |
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| davidsha | igordcard: ack. | 14:26 |
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| igordcard | davidsha: that mismatch with the semantic types (like tcp and udp being the same), is it resolved? | 14:27 |
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| davidsha | igordcard: Yup, took them straight down from the spec. | 14:29 |
| igordcard | davidsha: cool cool | 14:29 |
| igordcard | I don't have further questions now, I don't see any others, moving on... | 14:30 |
| igordcard | #topic Open discussion | 14:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)" | 14:30 | |
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| igordcard | I should rename this topic to Coffee time | 14:30 |
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| davidsha | igordcard: It would be nice ;P | 14:31 |
| bcafarel | and you would send coffee to all attendees? | 14:31 |
| davidsha | Were there many here at the Summit? | 14:31 |
| igordcard | bcafarel: no, that's out of scope... you are expected to go grab some coffee :p | 14:31 |
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| igordcard | I only met thomas and pcarver | 14:32 |
| davidsha | igordcard: Any updates from the summit that could affect work going forward? | 14:32 |
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| igordcard | davidsha: none that I noticed.. the closest is that yes the spec can be merged even we aren't working directly on neutron, and that later the project could become a stadium project | 14:34 |
| davidsha | igordcard: ack | 14:34 |
| igordcard | s/could/can | 14:35 |
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| igordcard | alright, this is all | 14:37 |
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| igordcard | thank you for attending and see you in the next meeting! | 14:37 |
| davidsha | Thanks! | 14:37 |
| igordcard | also hope to see you in Denver to discuss post-spec dev and goals | 14:38 |
| igordcard | bye | 14:38 |
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| davidsha | cya | 14:38 |
| igordcard | #endmeeting | 14:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:38 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 16 14:38:32 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:38 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2017/network_common_flow_classifier.2017-05-16-14.04.html | 14:38 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2017/network_common_flow_classifier.2017-05-16-14.04.txt | 14:38 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2017/network_common_flow_classifier.2017-05-16-14.04.log.html | 14:38 |
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| yuval | #startmeeting karbor | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 16 15:00:08 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yuval. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: karbor)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'karbor' | 15:00 |
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| yuval | Hello and welcome to Karbor's weekly meeting! | 15:00 |
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| chenying_ | hi | 15:00 |
| yuval | hey chenying_ :) | 15:00 |
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| yuval | #info chenying in meeting | 15:00 |
| yuval | chenying_: anyone else coming? | 15:01 |
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| chenying_ | I don't know. I am at home. | 15:01 |
| yuval | I see | 15:02 |
| yuval | nothing on the agenda today, so: | 15:02 |
| yuval | #topic Open Discussion | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: karbor)" | 15:02 | |
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| chenying_ | Just one thing. I will | 15:02 |
| chenying_ | I will register a topic about data protection for openstack day china next month. | 15:03 |
| yuval | chenying_: great! | 15:03 |
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| yuval | chenying_: do you need help with anything? | 15:04 |
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| chenying_ | This topic, I will speach with jiaopengju. He will introduce some usecase about openstack data portection in his company. | 15:04 |
| yuval | chenying_: sounds very good. Would it be possible to upload the video afterwards? | 15:06 |
| chenying_ | yuval Now don't need any. If we finish the topic slide , you can help us to review it. | 15:06 |
| chenying_ | Would it be possible to upload the video afterwards? I don't know. | 15:06 |
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| yuval | anything else? | 15:07 |
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| chenying_ | I make a mistake. The openstack day china will start in next next month. | 15:07 |
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| yuval | chenying_: ok | 15:08 |
| yuval | chenying_: anything else you would like to discuss? | 15:09 |
| chenying_ | It sounds that the use case about k8s and openstack in this Boston summit is very popular. So we may need think about some use case about container protection in openstack. | 15:09 |
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| chenying_ | yuval Do you know the project zun. container as a service in openstack. | 15:10 |
| yuval | chenying_: yes | 15:10 |
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| chenying_ | zun will expose a api about the snapshot of the container to tenant. | 15:11 |
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| chenying_ | So we may need pay some attention to this project, zun. | 15:12 |
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| yuval | chenying_: I'll look into that | 15:14 |
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| chenying_ | yinwei said she want to discuss some usease about volume replication in karbor. | 15:15 |
| yuval | she's not here as far as I know | 15:16 |
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| chenying_ | Yes. we can discuss it next time. | 15:17 |
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| yuval | chenying_: alright | 15:17 |
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| chenying_ | I don't anything to discuss now. | 15:18 |
| yuval | chenying_: I want to release a minor of karbor until end of week. Do we have anything open that you know about? | 15:19 |
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| chenying_ | sound great. Do you means that is there any patches need be inculed in this version? | 15:20 |
| yuval | yes | 15:20 |
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| chenying_ | Some patches about bugfix could be included. It is just a minor version. I think it doesn't matter. | 15:23 |
| yuval | alright | 15:23 |
| yuval | thanks! :) | 15:23 |
| yuval | have a good night | 15:23 |
| chenying_ | you too. | 15:23 |
| yuval | #endmeeting | 15:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:23 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 16 15:23:38 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:23 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2017/karbor.2017-05-16-15.00.html | 15:23 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2017/karbor.2017-05-16-15.00.txt | 15:23 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2017/karbor.2017-05-16-15.00.log.html | 15:23 |
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| cmurphy | o/ | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | #startmeeting keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 16 18:01:54 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is lbragstad. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
| henrynash | hi | 18:02 |
| knikolla | o/ | 18:02 |
| lamt | o/ | 18:02 |
| rderose | o/ | 18:02 |
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| lbragstad | ping antwash, ayoung, breton, cmurphy, dstanek, gagehugo, henrynash, hrybacki, knikolla, lamt, lbragstad, notmorgan, ravelar, rderose, rodrigods, samueldmq, spilla | 18:02 |
| hrybacki | o/ | 18:02 |
| lbragstad | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting | 18:02 |
| edmondsw | o/ | 18:02 |
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| lbragstad | hopefully everyone had an uneventful trip home from the summit | 18:02 |
| ayoung | I did | 18:03 |
| lbragstad | ayoung: i would hope so! | 18:03 |
| lbragstad | i bet knikolla's 20 minute walk was brutal | 18:04 |
| ayoung | hrybacki, edmondsw want to be added to the ping list? | 18:04 |
| knikolla | lbragstad: you bet, haha. | 18:04 |
| hrybacki | ayoung: I'm on it already :) | 18:04 |
| edmondsw | ayoung I thought I already was... yes | 18:04 |
| * ayoung can | 18:04 | |
| ayoung | 't read | 18:04 |
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| knikolla | edmondsw: we cleaned it up a few meetings ago | 18:05 |
| lbragstad | #topic announcements | 18:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:05 | |
| lbragstad | #info pike-2 is three weeks away | 18:05 |
| lbragstad | which means we'll be in spec freeze for pike | 18:05 |
| lbragstad | I'll be prioritizing spec reviews the next couple weeks | 18:06 |
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| lbragstad | We also need a documentation liaison | 18:07 |
| lbragstad | i understand a lot of folks are strapped for resources, but it anyone interested in picking this up? | 18:08 |
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| lbragstad | s/it/is/ | 18:08 |
| hrybacki | what exactly would that entail? | 18:08 |
| lbragstad | good question | 18:08 |
| lbragstad | the documentation liaison is responsible for keystone related documentation changes to the openstack-manuals and other projects under the docs team | 18:09 |
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| cmurphy | I'm interested but their meeting time is a little inconvenient for my time zone | 18:09 |
| lbragstad | they also serve as a point of contact for the the docs team if they have any keystone questions | 18:09 |
| ayoung | rodrigods, I wonder if we could enlist martin for that role? | 18:09 |
| hrybacki | lbragstad: I'm interested but would like to talk more about | 18:09 |
| lbragstad | cmurphy: understood | 18:10 |
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| lbragstad | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Documentation_Team_Meeting | 18:10 |
| lbragstad | ^ that's the actual meeting information | 18:10 |
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| * lbragstad wonders if asettle is around | 18:10 | |
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| lbragstad | there is some more information about the role in the wiki | 18:11 |
| lbragstad | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons#Documentation | 18:11 |
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| lbragstad | ayoung: rodrigods is martin an openstack contributor? | 18:12 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: fyi there is a current effort for migrating some docs into our tree | 18:12 |
| gagehugo | o/ sorry I'm late | 18:12 |
| samueldmq | such as the admin-guide | 18:12 |
| lbragstad | samueldmq: yep - that was another big discussion at the forum | 18:12 |
| hrybacki | lbragstad: I can attend the meeting this week as a stop-gap. Don't want to commit just yet to taking it over completely | 18:12 |
| lbragstad | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/doc-future | 18:12 |
| samueldmq | talked to asettle at the summit about that, I took a few working items for our Outreach internship | 18:12 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: nice, thanks for the linked, I haven't looked into that yet | 18:13 |
| lbragstad | hrybacki: that makes sense | 18:13 |
| lbragstad | the tl;dr was that the docs team got hit hard recently | 18:13 |
| spilla | o/ | 18:13 |
| lbragstad | the discussion was focused on how we can maintain all the documentation work | 18:13 |
| * hrybacki nods | 18:13 | |
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| lbragstad | now that we have less people working on docs | 18:13 |
| lbragstad | one of the proposals was to move more of the documentation into the project specific repositories and then have the guides rendered by pulling all the guides together | 18:14 |
| lbragstad | asettle: drove that session, so she's probably be able to clear up the direction there | 18:15 |
| lbragstad | regardless of what happens, we'll have some documentation work coming down the pipe and I wanted to get an idea of who, if anyone, would be interested in that kind of work | 18:15 |
| * cmurphy happy to help | 18:16 | |
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| hrybacki | I enjoy docs so I'm a candidate | 18:16 |
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| knikolla | happy to help but not able to guarantee a constant commitment to docs work. | 18:16 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 18:16 |
| lbragstad | and that's fine | 18:17 |
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| lbragstad | i know a lot of folks here are stretched thin, too | 18:17 |
| lbragstad | if that means sharing the responsibility then i think that's ok | 18:17 |
| lbragstad | we'll just have to make sure communication is on point with the docs team, too | 18:17 |
| ayoung | Got it. We'll start browbeating people. | 18:18 |
| lbragstad | I can take an action item to follow up with asettle | 18:18 |
| knikolla | lol | 18:18 |
| lbragstad | #action lbragstad to follow up with asettle about docs liaison | 18:18 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: sjain will be glad to help too, since that is what her internship is about :) | 18:18 |
| lbragstad | samueldmq: sweet! | 18:18 |
| samueldmq | but sure if we have lots of folks we can move much faster, which is great | 18:19 |
| lbragstad | #topic spec proposal freeze exception | 18:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "spec proposal freeze exception (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:19 | |
| lbragstad | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/463547/ - Retrieving policy via the API | 18:19 |
| knikolla | we should probably have an etherpad with pain points of our docs. and just let people sign up for individual items | 18:19 |
| ayoung | -2 | 18:19 |
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| ayoung | lbragstad, so many no. | 18:20 |
| lbragstad | there are two specification proposed to keystone that enable patrole to test keystone's policy | 18:20 |
| lbragstad | which is great, but I think we need to work with them on generating the policy using oslo.policy bits instead of fetching it via that API | 18:20 |
| lbragstad | for $REASONS | 18:20 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: what is patrole ? | 18:21 |
| ayoung | RBAC testing | 18:21 |
| samueldmq | I've seen that review but haven't looked into it yet, so I guess now is a good time to learn :) | 18:21 |
| ayoung | samueldmq, it is, in essence, a tool for checking RBAC. | 18:21 |
| edmondsw | lbragstad invite the author to our policy discussions? | 18:21 |
| knikolla | #link https://docs.openstack.org/developer/patrole/ | 18:21 |
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| ayoung | invite the whole team | 18:21 |
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| lbragstad | samueldmq: patrole is a framework for testing policy | 18:22 |
| * ayoung sobs. Not so quietly. | 18:22 | |
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| lbragstad | samueldmq: it will plug into tempest and exercise various policy scenarios in a functional manner | 18:22 |
| lbragstad | (at least from what I can tell) | 18:22 |
| samueldmq | hmm that's an interesting idea | 18:22 |
| edmondsw | sounds like they're proposing similar specs to other project, or plan to | 18:22 |
| ayoung | Yeah, interesting. In a "Chinese Fortune" meaning of the term | 18:23 |
| edmondsw | and we don't want that... | 18:23 |
| knikolla | ++ | 18:23 |
| lbragstad | from what i can tell - it would be only used for patrole to fetch the policy | 18:23 |
| lbragstad | so it would be an API for testing | 18:23 |
| ayoung | If only we had some dynamic way of distributing policy.... | 18:23 |
| lbragstad | and we've already taken a stance on policy API s | 18:23 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: cool, that's an interesting idea | 18:24 |
| edmondsw | I'd say give them some time in our next policy meeting (or the next one they can make), have them explain patrole, and us explain what we're doing, and try to get on the same page | 18:24 |
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| samueldmq | I wonder if that could evolve to something operators could use in the future to check their policies | 18:24 |
| lbragstad | edmondsw: ++ | 18:24 |
| samueldmq | if they're really expressing what they wanted to | 18:24 |
| lbragstad | i invited them to this meeting but the timing might not have been the best | 18:24 |
| ayoung | knikolla, and I would be willing to give the authors our talk from the summit via video conf | 18:24 |
| edmondsw | ayoung wasn't it recorded? | 18:25 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, it was, but I would give it again just for them | 18:25 |
| lbragstad | imho it sounds like what they want is a capabilities API | 18:25 |
| gagehugo | could just post the link? | 18:25 |
| edmondsw | ayoung oh, so you have time to burn after all... ;) | 18:25 |
| lbragstad | implemented in each of the services | 18:25 |
| samueldmq | putting the link along with the negative review would be enough | 18:25 |
| samueldmq | s/enough/great | 18:25 |
| knikolla | #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYYzl0rFCVU | 18:25 |
| samueldmq | so that they can learn more about the history/context/plans | 18:26 |
| ayoung | https://www.openstack.org/videos/boston-2017/per-api-role-based-access-control | 18:26 |
| ayoung | Will do | 18:26 |
| edmondsw | ayoung doesn't sound like the middleware thing is really what they're after anyway | 18:26 |
| lbragstad | #link https://www.openstack.org/videos/boston-2017/per-api-role-based-access-control | 18:26 |
| lbragstad | i think they want a list of things they can do | 18:26 |
| edmondsw | yeah, that's a bit different... as you said, capabilities | 18:26 |
| lbragstad | (at least that's what I got from reading the spec) | 18:26 |
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| knikolla | lfrom the spec i got the feeling they just want a way to 'wget policy.json' | 18:27 |
| lbragstad | knikolla: right | 18:27 |
| lbragstad | that's how i understood it | 18:27 |
| cmurphy | that's different from 'what can i do' | 18:27 |
| ayoung | So.... | 18:28 |
| ayoung | Are we going to go with the RBAC in middleware approach? | 18:28 |
| lbragstad | i'd also classify another question which is "what is possible" | 18:28 |
| edmondsw | they talk about 2 things... one being policy.json and another being "when policy is being handled within the code (oslo.policy case)"... not sure what exactly they mean by the latter | 18:28 |
| ayoung | before we discuss the patrole thing further, lets talk about the proposal that will actually answer their question if we go with it | 18:29 |
| edmondsw | sounds to me like cases where checks are hardcoded | 18:29 |
| ayoung | they wrote based on policy because that is all there was. | 18:29 |
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| knikolla | ayoung: ++, we need to get spec approval for pike before spec freeze | 18:29 |
| ayoung | they wrote "patrole" based on policy. | 18:29 |
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| ayoung | Is any core prepared to -2 the RBAC in middleware approach? | 18:30 |
| lbragstad | I have concerns with upgrades | 18:30 |
| lbragstad | and maintenance | 18:30 |
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| lbragstad | and the url | 18:30 |
| ayoung | lbragstad, enough to -2? | 18:30 |
| samueldmq | I am concerned about how this fits with the ongoing efforts | 18:31 |
| samueldmq | I think we can eventually get there | 18:31 |
| edmondsw | samueldmq +1 | 18:31 |
| samueldmq | but not now, let's keep moving and keep that in the wishlist | 18:31 |
| ayoung | enough to -2 it for Pike? | 18:31 |
| lbragstad | based on the url - possibly, because i found a lot of value in what dstanek had to say about it | 18:31 |
| samueldmq | and we will eventually get back to it as we move | 18:31 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: for me I think so | 18:32 |
| samueldmq | for Pike would be -2, for backlog/wishlist/future repo I'd +2 | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | samueldmq, it will, then, never happen | 18:32 |
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| samueldmq | we are making progress. | 18:32 |
| ayoung | samueldmq, no we are not | 18:32 |
| ayoung | you are just realizing all the mess I realized years ago | 18:33 |
| samueldmq | I think the right time will be when we get to split the role checks from the scope checks | 18:33 |
| samueldmq | once we have only role checks somewhere | 18:33 |
| knikolla | samueldmq: it's already been approved for backlog. and the code is almost done. | 18:33 |
| samueldmq | we can decide where we put those checks (middleware or whatever) | 18:33 |
| knikolla | samueldmq: it can be turned off and nothing changes. | 18:33 |
| knikolla | i got some very positive feedback from operators who want to see this after seeing the talk. | 18:33 |
| ayoung | <yoda>Hear you nothing that I say?</yoda> | 18:33 |
| lbragstad | like i said - my concern is with the url | 18:34 |
| ayoung | lbragstad, please state that concern completely. | 18:34 |
| samueldmq | what if when we get to the point (in cross project) that we split role/scope check and then look at the middleware approach | 18:34 |
| samueldmq | and no, we wanted to do it differently now that we got to this point | 18:34 |
| lbragstad | I don't think it make sense for keystone to have to require knowing about the url and maintain that mapping when other parts of OpenStack already have to do that | 18:34 |
| samueldmq | I am not opposed to it at all, just wanted enough input that this is going to go along very well with the cp efforts | 18:35 |
| lbragstad | if that breaks - i can't imagine what kind of operator pain that is going to cause | 18:35 |
| ayoung | if what breaks? | 18:35 |
| knikolla | lbragstad: middleware only knows the url. if you want to use compute:list_servers. it still needs the mapping. | 18:35 |
| samueldmq | kbyrne: so what's the point of performing role checks in 2 places? | 18:36 |
| ayoung | They can't do it today. There is no way to gether up the list of URLs for a project except manually. | 18:36 |
| lbragstad | the current proposal requires the keystone server to know that POST /v2/servers -> compute:boot_instance | 18:36 |
| ayoung | lbragstad, nope | 18:36 |
| samueldmq | for me it would make sense if we were going to only check roles in the middleware, checking in 2 places is going to be painful imo | 18:36 |
| ayoung | the current proposal has a catch all that means it needs to know nothing about a remote service to be drop in compatible. It only has to know about POST /v2/servers if you want a specific role for that | 18:37 |
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| ayoung | and none of the other projects know about any of the keystone roles with the exception of admin | 18:37 |
| ayoung | the service role is in the config file, managed by us | 18:37 |
| lbragstad | ok - true or false, keystonemiddleware has to query keystone to determine if a user can do a specific operation | 18:37 |
| ayoung | neutron has some non-created roles in their policy file | 18:37 |
| edmondsw | knikolla when you say the code is almost done, does that include things like caching so performance isn't awful? | 18:37 |
| ayoung | lbragstad, true (query and cache the rbac data) | 18:38 |
| ayoung | lbragstad, it has to do that now, when it validates a token | 18:38 |
| ayoung | query and cache | 18:38 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, caching is not yet done. It will be cached in memcache along side the token data | 18:38 |
| lbragstad | sure - but it's asking keystone because we're allowing the ability to store all operations in openstack in keystone based on the url, because that's what middleware requires in order to map to the operation, right? | 18:39 |
| ayoung | lbragstad, not just | 18:39 |
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| ayoung | lbragstad, we need to map an operation to a role. Roles are data in Keystone. The RBAC data is the maintainance of this mapping | 18:39 |
| ayoung | it has to be maintained somehow, and this is an operator task | 18:39 |
| knikolla | edmondsw: i haven't played around with caching yet, but i can devote enough time to having this work well for Pike if it gets approved for it. | 18:40 |
| ayoung | there are workflows that are impossible without the RBAC mechanism] | 18:40 |
| ayoung | knikolla, ++ | 18:40 |
| ayoung | lets get it in, disabled by default, and let people start working with it | 18:40 |
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| ayoung | there is no other way to do this | 18:41 |
| lbragstad | i think there is | 18:41 |
| samueldmq | is there the concept of experimental yet ? | 18:41 |
| edmondsw | ayoung define "this" | 18:41 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, the 3 use cases from my presentation,. and the workflow I layed out at the end | 18:41 |
| lbragstad | edmondsw: finding out "which role I need to do X" | 18:41 |
| ayoung | yep | 18:41 |
| edmondsw | this doesn't accomplish that | 18:42 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, yes it does. Not 100%, because of policy, obviously, but it is a start | 18:42 |
| ayoung | if it is used, it does answer that question | 18:42 |
| ayoung | if it is not used, there is no way to answer it | 18:42 |
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| edmondsw | ayoung so you say yes, and then contradict yourself and agree that it doesn't :) | 18:42 |
| lbragstad | well - the rbac in middleware approarch requires us add an API to keystone that let's keystone answer that question | 18:42 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, unless we make every single service give up an API to report their policy, we cannot work with tp-olicty,.json to do this | 18:43 |
| edmondsw | lbragstad no, it allows keystone to give you an answer with <100% certainty | 18:43 |
| edmondsw | policy will always still be there | 18:43 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, so we make progress. And then we get rid of RBAC in policy | 18:43 |
| edmondsw | ayoung you can never do that | 18:43 |
| edmondsw | never ever ever | 18:43 |
| edmondsw | nor should you want to | 18:43 |
| edmondsw | I don't disagree with the middleware idea... I just don't want it taking attention away from more important things, or being touted as more than it is | 18:44 |
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| ayoung | edmondsw, just becuase you guys are doing some propriatey back system lookup does not mean I want to keep supporting the existing mechanism. Just because someone could throw a custom middleware, or even proxy in front of a Keystone server does not mean I should care about that use case | 18:45 |
| edmondsw | ayoung you're confusing me with someone else... I'm not doing any proprietary back system lookup | 18:45 |
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| edmondsw | I don't work with Henry | 18:45 |
| edmondsw | nothing I'm saying has anything to do with that | 18:45 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, heh | 18:45 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, why on earth would you want to continue to enforce RBAC in policy? Aside from momentum? | 18:46 |
| edmondsw | because there are some things you have to check that you can't check in middleware because it doesn't known enough | 18:46 |
| lbragstad | like what owns a given resource, for example? | 18:47 |
| edmondsw | sure | 18:47 |
| knikolla | but that's the scope check | 18:47 |
| edmondsw | no | 18:47 |
| edmondsw | there are so many very different examples | 18:47 |
| edmondsw | e.g. changing one attribute needing a different check than changing another attribute on the same resource | 18:47 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, none of that is RBAC | 18:47 |
| ayoung | ownership is scope check | 18:48 |
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| edmondsw | ayoung if we had a real ownership concept | 18:48 |
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| edmondsw | I don't want to get sidetracked on that... consider my example | 18:48 |
| ayoung | please... | 18:48 |
| edmondsw | see above | 18:48 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, what example? | 18:48 |
| edmondsw | the line that starts with e.g. | 18:49 |
| ayoung | currently done via actions API for example in Nova | 18:49 |
| ayoung | we have the follow on spec for bodykey | 18:49 |
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| edmondsw | ayoung, no, that's a separate but another good example | 18:49 |
| ayoung | that can be done in middleware | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | won't be done this release due to caution, but not a reason to keep using policy | 18:50 |
| edmondsw | ayoung I don't believe you'll be able to solve that in middleware. Maybe some subcases, but not all of them | 18:50 |
| knikolla | edmondsw: if updating both attributes is done via the same url, a follow up proposal checks the keys in the body of the json. if both keys are there, it checks for both roles required by each key. | 18:51 |
| edmondsw | ayoung what is the link for that spec anyway? | 18:51 |
| edmondsw | I don't see how you can handle all possible cases, where the key could be buried layers down in the json hierarchy, same key could mean different things in different places, etc. | 18:51 |
| ayoung | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/452198/ | 18:52 |
| knikolla | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/456974/ | 18:52 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, can be vs is. We have an openstack that is out there now. Based on the today restrictions, we have something that can work. If we deploy it, it will become tomorrows guidleine for new API construction | 18:52 |
| ayoung | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/452198/ | 18:53 |
| ayoung | Mine is the spec for this release. Kristi's is for the follow on | 18:53 |
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| edmondsw | we've just jumped 8 steps ahead of where we should be starting... we even agreed the other day that this middleware stuff only helps with what we defined as "future goals" and not our urgent priorities | 18:55 |
| lbragstad | edmondsw: what are the urgent priorities in your opinion? | 18:55 |
| edmondsw | as listed in your spec on policy goals | 18:56 |
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| edmondsw | that's what I'm referring to | 18:56 |
| lbragstad | ah | 18:56 |
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| lbragstad | so admin-ness | 18:58 |
| edmondsw | I'm not against the middleware... I just don't see why we're spending time on it right now | 18:58 |
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| ayoung | and that work was submitted and an approach was approved and the fixes are being reviewed and updated | 18:58 |
| ayoung | beacuse it is broken and because I have people asking for things from Openstack that can only happen if we have that mechanism | 18:59 |
| edmondsw | such as? | 18:59 |
| lbragstad | i personally think that in order to provide the answer to "who can do what" question, we need more service involvement | 18:59 |
| ayoung | the Read only role can be done with just that patch and policy as is today | 18:59 |
| ayoung | fine grained roles | 19:00 |
| edmondsw | ayoung you have to know that's not true | 19:00 |
| ayoung | edmondsw, I know that it is absolutely true based on the state of OpenStack today. | 19:00 |
| ayoung | You need a catch all, and you need explicit rules. | 19:00 |
| lbragstad | we're out of time | 19:01 |
| lbragstad | we can carry on in #openstack-keystone | 19:01 |
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| lbragstad | #endmeeting | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 16 19:01:12 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2017/keystone.2017-05-16-18.01.html | 19:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2017/keystone.2017-05-16-18.01.txt | 19:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2017/keystone.2017-05-16-18.01.log.html | 19:01 |
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| ttx | o/ | 20:00 |
| smcginnis | o/ | 20:00 |
| cdent | o/ | 20:00 |
| ttx | dhellmann, dims, dtroyer, EmilienM, flaper87, fungi, johnthetubaguy, mordred, sdague, stevemar: around ? | 20:00 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:00 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:00 |
| dtroyer | o/ | 20:00 |
| ttx | (yes, I manually edit my ping lists) | 20:00 |
| EmilienM | o/ | 20:00 |
| fungi | yup | 20:00 |
| flaper87 | ttx: lol | 20:00 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 16 20:01:01 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:01 |
| ttx | Was great seeing you all last week in person! | 20:01 |
| dims | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today is at: | 20:01 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:01 |
| * edleafe wanders aimlessly | 20:01 | |
| ttx | Reminder that you can all use #info #idea and #link to help build a more readable summary | 20:01 |
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| ttx | #topic Boston feedback and immediate action items | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Boston feedback and immediate action items (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
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| ttx | Wanted to spend a few minutes to get for feedback on the Forum | 20:01 |
| ttx | err -for | 20:01 |
| ttx | and also to write down a few #action points for the TC from the discussions that happened there | 20:02 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:02 |
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| ttx | in case we missed anything we need to track | 20:02 |
| ttx | (beyond the ones that are already on the agenda for this meeting) | 20:02 |
| notmyname | ttx: I have one... | 20:02 |
| ttx | notmyname: sure shoot | 20:02 |
| notmyname | a community member expressed some frustration that our team's sessions were restricted, yet there were plenty of empty rooms, especially on wed-thurs | 20:03 |
| ttx | notmyname: two things on that | 20:04 |
| ttx | I would agree that Thursday afternoon was under-utilized | 20:04 |
| ttx | Original plan was to keep it for continuing discussion | 20:04 |
| ttx | and last-minute topics | 20:04 |
| ttx | but in the end almost nobody scheduled anything there | 20:04 |
| dims | (sign up for Thu afternoon was here - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Forum/Boston2017) | 20:04 |
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| mriedem | o/ | 20:05 |
| smcginnis | Hacking rooms were available but rarely used. | 20:05 |
| diablo_rojo | There were also hacking rooms available to drop int. | 20:05 |
| diablo_rojo | smcginnis, lol | 20:05 |
| mriedem | i have feedback unrelated to ^ | 20:05 |
| smcginnis | diablo_rojo: ;) | 20:05 |
| ttx | As far as empty rooms on Wed and Thu morning, not sure.... we limited the number of concurrent sessions to 3. Are you suggesting we hhould have had more ? | 20:05 |
| ttx | should* | 20:05 |
| * rockyg wanders in and sits near edleafe | 20:05 | |
| notmyname | right. we ended up scheduling something on that wiki page (i missed that announcement). and we dropped in a hackingroom | 20:05 |
| * edleafe passes rocky_g some popcorn | 20:05 | |
| sdague | I think the thurs sign up process was maybe less clear, it would have been nice to have a whiteboard in the hallway for those sessions instead of the wiki. Something that could be more organic. | 20:05 |
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| notmyname | ttx: yes, I think more concurrent sessions would have been fine | 20:06 |
| smcginnis | sdague: I like that idea. | 20:06 |
| rockyg | sdague, ++ | 20:06 |
| ttx | notmyname: noted | 20:06 |
| notmyname | ttx: just wanted to raise the point as feedback. I'll pass it along, too | 20:06 |
| ttx | What do you guys think ? CAn we afford more than 3 concurrent sessions ? | 20:06 |
| flaper87 | ttx: we can certainly try | 20:06 |
| sdague | personally I appreciated it being only 3 way | 20:06 |
| mriedem | i wouldn't | 20:06 |
| flaper87 | also, I like sdague's idea | 20:06 |
| flaper87 | or, at least, we should communicate better the sign up process | 20:07 |
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| mriedem | the point of the forum is to get people together, in a forum, for discussion, right? | 20:07 |
| dtroyer | Even with only three there were some notable conflicts, but not as many as I recall from the past | 20:07 |
| ttx | I feel like I was not overextended, but then I'm not involved in day-to-day development | 20:07 |
| sdague | because I was only double booked twice instead of 6 or 8 times | 20:07 |
| mriedem | too much concurrency and you miss out on things | 20:07 |
| mriedem | sdague: yeah | 20:07 |
| cdent | mriedem++ | 20:07 |
| dims | ++ mriedem | 20:07 |
| ttx | we could also have most days with 3 concurrent sessions, and one day with 4, I guess | 20:07 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, planning for the overflow sessions was a little last minute. something physical on site might work better next time. | 20:07 |
| ttx | although from a space utilization perspective it's suboptimal | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | I agree it'd be awesome to avoid overlaps as much as possible. | 20:07 |
| flaper87 | ttx: 3x3 and 1x4 ++ | 20:08 |
| mriedem | i'd never want to see >3 concurrent sessions | 20:08 |
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| sdague | mriedem: ++ | 20:08 |
| rockyg | mriedem, ++ | 20:08 |
| mriedem | hell i'd be happy if there were 2 | 20:08 |
| dtroyer | even without personal conflicts, getting a critical mass of "the right people" into a room is easier with fewer sessions | 20:08 |
| ttx | notmyname: do you feel like you missed on user feedback due to less sessions being available ? | 20:08 |
| ttx | (comapred to previous summits) | 20:08 |
| mriedem | i didn't get user feedback | 20:08 |
| mriedem | was my complaint | 20:08 |
| sdague | the point of this was to get us more mixing together, not replicating the 20+ track PTG everyone in a corner | 20:08 |
| mriedem | or operator really, | 20:08 |
| ttx | sdague: indeed | 20:08 |
| rockyg | Just have bookable (on site, like sdague said) rooms so adhoc sessions can happen around emerging topis | 20:08 |
| mriedem | in general i didn't feel the forum was any different from the first 2 days of design summit in previous summits | 20:08 |
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| fungi | i liked that pretty much all of the forum sessions were non-project-specific but were instead topic-specific | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | fungi: ++ | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ++ that's what we wanted | 20:09 |
| ttx | fungi++ | 20:09 |
| dims | agree fungi | 20:09 |
| sdague | mriedem: pretty much | 20:09 |
| mriedem | i still got the feeling most things were dev-driven, | 20:09 |
| mriedem | and dev-centric | 20:09 |
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| mriedem | like, | 20:09 |
| notmyname | ttx: definitely. previous summits had much better feedback and progress made. although we made use of the hacking rooms when we found them, we even had someone (an operator and new to the community--first in-person event) didn't have any idea where any of the rest of the community was | 20:09 |
| mriedem | devs: "here is the plan, what do you think?" | 20:09 |
| ttx | mriedem: in my sessions I saw a lot more ops involved than we used to, but maybe those were the less dev-oriented | 20:09 |
| mriedem | everyone else: "crickets" | 20:09 |
| dims | regarding project onboarding, some teams got good turnout, others did not | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | mriedem: that was the hardest thing to avoid but I think many of us intervined more than once suggesting to not dive into "dev" specific discussions | 20:10 |
| notmyname | ttx: so the discoverability of sessions, especially in the hacking rooms, was bad. a whiteboard schedule would really help with that (a la sdague) | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | mriedem: any example of the sessions where that happened? | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | That was not the case for most of the sessions I attended | 20:10 |
| sdague | so, except for the quotas session, I feel like the operators there were the same ones that were always there. Maybe it's a transition, but it didn't seem to be substantially different in that regard | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | so it'd be interesting to know when that happened | 20:10 |
| mriedem | sdague: same | 20:10 |
| mriedem | flaper87: the claims in the scheduler session, | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | are we competing with presentations? | 20:10 |
| mriedem | the instance/volume affinity HPC session | 20:10 |
| sdague | dhellmann: there is also that | 20:10 |
| mriedem | dhellmann: yes | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | I don't know how to avoid that, if we are | 20:10 |
| mriedem | there are also talks i'd like to attend | 20:11 |
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| mriedem | like people presenting on their upgrade and scaling issues | 20:11 |
| mriedem | i feel that's where the 'user' feedback is | 20:11 |
| mriedem | but the devs are all in a forum cave | 20:11 |
| ttx | I prioritized forum sessions because they are not recorded and you actively participate in them. I just watch videos later | 20:11 |
| rockyg | mriedem, ++ | 20:11 |
| dims | i was able to get to some talks and learn new stuff | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | ttx: that's what I do | 20:11 |
| notmyname | mriedem: ++ | 20:11 |
| flaper87 | mostly prioritize on talking to people at the forum while I can | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I do that, too. I wonder if we're still too segregated, though, if ops are prioritizing presentations over discussions | 20:12 |
| mriedem | flaper87: i generally talk to the people i know, | 20:12 |
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| mriedem | it's the people i don't that i'm missing | 20:12 |
| cdent | I really wanted to attend more sessions than I did (to learn new stuff) but felt obliged to be in the forum rooms (mostly 102 for some reason) | 20:12 |
| sdague | the problem with watch later, is it doesn't provide a clear way to continue the conversation | 20:12 |
| mriedem | sdague: yes, | 20:12 |
| mriedem | and my todo list grows and i don't actually watch later :) | 20:12 |
| ttx | Don't hesitate to mention that in the official feedback form | 20:12 |
| rockyg | There are ops sessions (some inforums, some in presos) that have really good info for devs. the LDT sessions talk about workarounds for scaling and other issues | 20:12 |
| sdague | heh, yeh, I hear you | 20:12 |
| flaper87 | cdent: mostly 102 here too :P | 20:12 |
| EmilienM | &/rdo | 20:12 |
| EmilienM | oops | 20:13 |
| dims | overall, it was a great positive experience for me inspite of the daily commute :) | 20:13 |
| ttx | happy to receive suggestions on how to improve the format | 20:13 |
| mriedem | anyway, in general i get the sense that unless i ask a very specific question to ops/users (where are the users anyway?), i don't get any feedback | 20:13 |
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| rockyg | I thought it was great for the first time effort | 20:13 |
| smcginnis | rockyg: +1 | 20:14 |
| ttx | some sessions were definitely still sounding like old design summit discussions, but some others definitely had a new feel | 20:14 |
| mriedem | also, record the onboarding rooms next time | 20:14 |
| ttx | mriedem: ++ | 20:14 |
| mriedem | that's hard with audio though | 20:14 |
| EmilienM | mriedem: yes, many projects thought the same thing | 20:14 |
| mriedem | but, mics i gues | 20:14 |
| smcginnis | We may just record our own. | 20:14 |
| cdent | despite it having some bumps I thought it was way better having the forum than having the old style summit | 20:14 |
| fungi | a number of the "presentations" were actually feedback-oriented panels too | 20:14 |
| rockyg | fungi, ++ | 20:14 |
| ttx | ok, let's move on -- but feel free to express your feedback on the ML, the survey or by email to me | 20:15 |
| fungi | for example, in the security panel we spent about 50% of the time on prepared questions and the other 50% on audience questions | 20:15 |
| smcginnis | fungi: And one "we ran OpenStack and here are all the failures we had." :/ | 20:15 |
| mriedem | is there a feedback thread? | 20:15 |
| rockyg | part of the confusion, especially for users/ops this round was they thought they needed to get into the presentation schedule when they really could have done better in the forum | 20:16 |
| ttx | Recording on-boarding and improving late scheduling and publicizing the hacking room schedule are all no-brainer optimizations in my opinion | 20:16 |
| dims | mriedem : go ahead start one :) i didn't see any | 20:16 |
| notmyname | ttx: +1 | 20:16 |
| ttx | adding more parallel discussions is likely a two-edged sword | 20:16 |
| EmilienM | I've also heard some feedback about some Forum sessions without much agenda. For the next Forum, I would maybe be a little bit more engaged to push people to prepare the sessions they're supposed to lead | 20:16 |
| ttx | EmilienM: yes, in some preperation was a bit minimal | 20:17 |
| EmilienM | I've found some Forum sessions well prepared, where the discussion happened smoothly and finished before time | 20:17 |
| dims | one fish bowl did not have a moderator, but that kind of stuff happens.. | 20:17 |
| EmilienM | on the opposite, some sessions didn't have any etherpad or agenda before it started | 20:17 |
| EmilienM | dims: the one with k8s & orchestration? | 20:17 |
| dims | EmilienM : y and we drafted the kolla-kubernetes folks in the room to run it | 20:17 |
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| EmilienM | anyway, we should maybe push people to prepare better next time | 20:18 |
| ttx | I propose we move on | 20:18 |
| rockyg | lots of Asia folks didn't get their visas | 20:18 |
| flaper87 | ttx: ++ | 20:18 |
| ttx | let's quickly discuss post-forum action steps for a number of already-submitted proposals | 20:18 |
| smcginnis | I wonder if there's a good way we can tag forum sessions to let operators know which ones it would be good for them to attend. | 20:18 |
| smcginnis | Other than all. | 20:18 |
| ttx | #topic Next steps for TC vision | 20:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for TC vision (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:18 | |
| dims | ++ smcginnis | 20:18 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Yes, let's move on. | 20:18 |
| ttx | Proposed draft is here: | 20:18 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/453262 | 20:18 |
| ttx | Feedback was collected on the review, on an anonymous survey and in a summit presentation last week | 20:18 |
| ttx | My brain is a bit mushy but I think someone signed up to collect and organize the feedback into a number of changes | 20:19 |
| ttx | some cosmetic that we can probably easily include | 20:19 |
| sdague | ttx: I don't think anyone actually committed to the next phase | 20:19 |
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| ttx | some deeper that might require further discussion | 20:19 |
| cdent | because my todo list got crowded like mriedem's, I haven't seen it yet: is the video of that session going to be coherent enough to watch now? | 20:20 |
| sdague | we definitely need probably two folks to tackle the next draft | 20:20 |
| ttx | sdague: might have been gothicmindfood or johnthetubaguy during that session | 20:20 |
| ttx | but then I don't want to sign them up if my memories are unclear | 20:20 |
| ttx | I'll follow up with them | 20:20 |
| sdague | having done the last draft consolidation, it would be good if it was "notme" so that other voices mix in here, and I don't accidentally skew too far | 20:20 |
| cdent | I'll happily volunteer to help someone else (who was at the session and has access to the feedback survey) | 20:21 |
| ttx | #action ttx to follow up with gothicmindfood / johnthetubaguy re: next step on TC vision | 20:21 |
| ttx | #info cdent volunteers to help | 20:21 |
| * dtroyer can also help out here | 20:21 | |
| ttx | #info so does dtroyer | 20:21 |
| smcginnis | I still need to review the session recording. I'll try to add comments as I do that as well. | 20:21 |
| ttx | ok moving on, since we are missing the people who actually know what's going on | 20:21 |
| sdague | there weren't a ton of feedback in the session itself | 20:21 |
| sdague | the spread sheet is the big one | 20:22 |
| ttx | feedback in-session was mostly positive | 20:22 |
| * flaper87 is sad to have missed that session | 20:22 | |
| sdague | especially as there are bunches of conflicting commentary in there, so it's going to require judgement | 20:22 |
| ttx | but yes, not much. A lot of people were hearing the vision for the first time | 20:22 |
| flaper87 | (one example of conflicting sessions for me) | 20:22 |
| sdague | yeh, timing it against the pike goals session was less than ideal | 20:22 |
| flaper87 | ttx: good stuff | 20:22 |
| ttx | flaper87: I hear one of the speakers was awesome. Just sayin | 20:22 |
| smcginnis | sdague: +1 | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | ttx: :P | 20:23 |
| ttx | #topic Next steps for assert:supports-api-compatibility | 20:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for assert:supports-api-compatibility (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:23 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/418010 | 20:23 |
| ttx | The dependency review (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/421846) was approved recently | 20:23 |
| ttx | cdent suggested on the review that it should be renamed to supports-api-interoperability | 20:23 |
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| ttx | not sure how many cycles mtreinish will dedicate to a new rev | 20:23 |
| cdent | only because that word became the key word when resolving the dependent review | 20:23 |
| ttx | or if someone should pick it up | 20:23 |
| ttx | since it's missing a few things as dhellmann noted | 20:24 |
| sdague | he's out today, I can poke him when he's back later this week to see | 20:24 |
| cdent | I can do it if necessary. I'm a bit more concerned about the issue with the api-wg potentially being the arbiter | 20:24 |
| ttx | sdague: ok | 20:24 |
| cdent | which would be an important change in activity | 20:24 |
| ttx | #action sdague to follow up with mtreinish to see if he will push it to the end | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | cdent : I asked about that because it wasn't clear who would manage the tag. I don't know if it's a good idea or not. | 20:25 |
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| cdent | me neither :) | 20:25 |
| ttx | #topic Next steps for deprecate postgresql in OpenStack | 20:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for deprecate postgresql in OpenStack (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:25 | |
| dhellmann | it has worked for some other teams, but maybe the WG isn't able to do it? or doesn't want to? | 20:25 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/427880 | 20:25 |
| ttx | sdague already refreshed it based on the forum discussion | 20:25 |
| ttx | I think we can iterate on the review | 20:25 |
| smcginnis | Based on the change proposed, it doesn't seem to me like "deprecate" is the right term now. | 20:25 |
| sdague | also | 20:26 |
| sdague | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-May/116642.html | 20:26 |
| ttx | I would not mind if we also explained the kind of involvement we'd like to see to revert the course of action | 20:26 |
| sdague | for ml thread (which there is no response on yet, though there is some gerrit responses) | 20:26 |
| sdague | ttx: that has never been successful | 20:26 |
| ttx | which makes me think -- how is the ML/Gerrit discussion mix working for you all | 20:26 |
| ttx | feels like it doesn't realy make it easy to follow | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | yeah, my impression was we were going to close this off and *not* ask for action to reverse it | 20:27 |
| sdague | asking folks that don't really think there is value in doing the work, to assess and break down the work for other people into chunks they might decide to fund, just isn't a virtuous cycle | 20:27 |
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| ttx | sdague: in other words.. If there was someone who made it work (without us asking) would we likely revert the course ? | 20:28 |
| sdague | ttx: yes | 20:28 |
| rockyg | Anyone talk to the postgres folks in the marketplace? | 20:28 |
| ttx | ok, I can follow that. Agree asking hasn't served us that well anyway | 20:28 |
| sdague | if you are removing work from existing upstream folks | 20:28 |
| rockyg | Totally unaware of Postgres in the control plane. | 20:28 |
| sdague | you get the freedom and trust to also do things important to you | 20:28 |
| rockyg | suggested they get involved. | 20:28 |
| ttx | sdague: yes, by "involved" I mean shouldering significant QA work otherwise | 20:28 |
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| fungi | cynical perhaps, but i see the main benefit in outlining what would be needed to reverse direction is that we can point at it to show that we provided an alternative nobody took us up on | 20:28 |
| rockyg | They might be good candidates to recruit | 20:28 |
| rockyg | fungi, ++ | 20:29 |
| smcginnis | ttx: by "shouldering the QA work", do you mean running CI outside of our normal gate? | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | rockyg : see the links above, and the forum session. We've been trying to get people to get involved in the discussion. | 20:29 |
| ttx | smcginnis: no I mean helping the QA team by funding people to work there | 20:29 |
| sdague | ttx: and proactively engaging in upgrade work, and reviews in projects that need an rdbms (which is many of them) | 20:29 |
| sdague | it's not just final QA, it's being early in the process as well | 20:29 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Seems like a narrow slice of work to have specific people called out as "funded for pg" work. | 20:30 |
| sdague | smcginnis: so, if I change the title to "Be clear about support level of Postgresql", you would be happier | 20:30 |
| dims | sdague : some downstream teams seem to start looking at stuff only after we push out a release so by then it's too late | 20:30 |
| rockyg | dhellmann, these guys were clueless. Users, but no idea how to participate. but interested when they heard about it. | 20:30 |
| ttx | anyway, we have a way forward on this one. I think the proposed resolution reflects the consensus at the Forum alright | 20:30 |
| cdent | do we need to be detailed about the need for support? Can't we just say "we are asking for support to make this go"? | 20:30 |
| ttx | let's see how it flies | 20:30 |
| smcginnis | sdague: If we are planning to ultimately remove support, then I think deprecation is the right term. | 20:30 |
| sdague | cdent: yes, we need to be clear | 20:31 |
| fungi | i still see taking away seemingly arbitrary choices in deployment as one of the primary solutions we have for addressing the common complaints about complexity | 20:31 |
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| sdague | because that's exactly the ask | 20:31 |
| * cdent shrugs | 20:31 | |
| smcginnis | sdague: If we are saying, "pg is meh" then I don't think it is. | 20:31 |
| sdague | "tell me how much engineering budget I have to ask for for this feature to not go away" | 20:31 |
| dims | smcginnis : i think "Deprecate" is appropriate signal if we want folks to wake up and pitch in | 20:31 |
| fungi | people did speak up saying "taking away an option i'm using doesn't simplify openstack" but of course having taken it away before they ever started to evaluate openstack likely would have simplified things for them later | 20:31 |
| ttx | I propose we continue the discussion on the review/ML. It's not as if the discussion was deadlocked there yet | 20:32 |
| sdague | fungi: right, and we right now aren't really being honest with folks | 20:32 |
| smcginnis | dims: Fair enough. It certainly conveys a greater sense of urgency. | 20:32 |
| ttx | #topic Next steps for "Describe what upstream support means" | 20:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for "Describe what upstream support means" (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:32 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/440601 | 20:32 |
| ttx | Do we still want this one ? | 20:32 |
| ttx | I guess I should follow up with johnthetubaguy | 20:33 |
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| ttx | but maybe you have opinions | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy says on a recent comment that he's planning to update it next week-ish | 20:33 |
| ttx | oh I see it now | 20:33 |
| ttx | ok, let's do that | 20:33 |
| sdague | I'd say let him drive the discussion when he can | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | I think we do want this, to some extent. It relates to that discussion we had at the forum about explaining how things make it into openstack. | 20:33 |
| dims | mixed feelings ttx, is a blog post enough to point people at? | 20:33 |
| sdague | dhellmann: sure, it feels very "opensource 101" to me | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I think it's ok to let this one ride another week to see how things go | 20:34 |
| sdague | which I guess is fine, but seems odd to have to do it | 20:34 |
| fungi | it seems a useful statement to me at least | 20:34 |
| ttx | In general, do you feel like mixing discussion in Gerrit and ML is working ? Or should we have different types of discussions on each ? | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | sdague: right, and as you pointed out even the linux foundation had to explain that for a long time. I think we expected people to already understand it more than we should have. | 20:34 |
| fungi | though still not sure whether the project-teams guide might be a better location for that info | 20:34 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yep, good point | 20:34 |
| dims | fungi : right +1 | 20:34 |
| ttx | Asking because notmyname was wondering where to post (and ended up copy-pasting on both, which is a bit ineffective) | 20:35 |
| notmyname | ttx: it's doubly effective! ;-) | 20:35 |
| sdague | ttx: I feel like the ML threads have brought people into the discussions that would have not otherwise | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | ttx: a comment as long as notmyname's really only needed to go on the ML | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | sdague : ++ | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | that was one reason I started the thread about binary packages there instead of directly with a resolution | 20:35 |
| sdague | dhellmann: agreed, it's actually kind of hard to ack in the gerrit review because you can't break it up | 20:35 |
| ttx | sdague: I guess we'll develop an habit about what fits on which | 20:35 |
| sdague | I honestly think they all need the ML threads | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | I think we should work out details on the ML, and refine language on the review | 20:36 |
| ttx | Ideally I would like the review to carry simple discussions and the ML to carry hard ones | 20:36 |
| dhellmann | going deep into policy in gerrit is hard | 20:36 |
| fungi | the current division/duplication between ml and gerrit comments seems likely to be a transitional state | 20:36 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yeh | 20:36 |
| ttx | But in the end we want our objection heard so we post everywhere | 20:36 |
| sdague | honestly, if the API Key thing had been only in gerrit, it just would have circled for 2 more years | 20:36 |
| ttx | which I find a bit ineffective | 20:36 |
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| ttx | anyway, let's give it a bit more time | 20:37 |
| sdague | fungi: also, I agree, it's super early in the transition, new habbits have not yet formed | 20:37 |
| fungi | over time people seeing complex discussion limited to the ml will follow suit | 20:37 |
| ttx | #topic Change the target for this goal to uWSGI not Apache mod_wsgi | 20:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Change the target for this goal to uWSGI not Apache mod_wsgi (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:37 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/460951 | 20:37 |
| smcginnis | ttx: I think you are right that it is transitional, but we will always have some overlap. | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | ttx: maybe the folks driving the "drop the meeting" stuff can write down some suggestions as part of replacing the stuff we have now | 20:37 |
| EmilienM | ttx: this one looks ready to approve | 20:37 |
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| ttx | EmilienM: yes, approving now | 20:37 |
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| smcginnis | +1 | 20:37 |
| EmilienM | sdague: thanks for this change ^ | 20:37 |
| sdague | EmilienM: no prob | 20:37 |
| ttx | done | 20:37 |
| ttx | #topic Moving away from weekly meetings | 20:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Moving away from weekly meetings (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:38 | |
| sdague | with that in, the nova completion of it should hit this week as well | 20:38 |
| ttx | OK, several pieces | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | ttx: when do the new "wait a week" rules go into effect? I suppose we have to approve them first. | 20:38 |
| EmilienM | sdague: wouhouuu ! | 20:38 |
| ttx | dhellmann: exactly | 20:38 |
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| ttx | * Stop requiring public IRC meetings | 20:38 |
| sdague | dhellmann: the last vote there was May 4 | 20:38 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/462077 | 20:38 |
| sdague | oh, sorry, there were 4 today | 20:38 |
| * sdague bad at reading dates | 20:38 | |
| ttx | Still think we need that one in before we start making changes | 20:38 |
| flaper87 | I like it | 20:39 |
| ttx | reflects current situation better anyway | 20:39 |
| ttx | Let me approve the sphinx cap now that it has two review | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | ++ | 20:39 |
| ttx | then we can recheck that one | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | folks can still vote, fwiw | 20:40 |
| ttx | but feel free to pile up votes | 20:40 |
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| ttx | I would rather pass this one first rather than hold the rest of our community to a higher standard than the TC's | 20:40 |
| ttx | * Remove the proxying section from charter | 20:40 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/463140 | 20:40 |
| ttx | This one is I think a no-brainer. It's a charter change though, so we need 9 approvers | 20:40 |
| flaper87 | dtroyer: had a concern that other folks answered | 20:40 |
| smcginnis | +1 | 20:40 |
| ttx | I just can't remember the last time we sued it | 20:41 |
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| ttx | used* | 20:41 |
| flaper87 | (which is mainly the reason I proposed this) | 20:41 |
| smcginnis | Seems pretty much unnecessary at this point. | 20:41 |
| sdague | there have only been 2 votes in the last 6 months, right? | 20:41 |
| ttx | sdague: and none used proxying | 20:41 |
| sdague | and they were more about getting a sense of the room, and not binding | 20:41 |
| ttx | yes | 20:41 |
| smcginnis | At 9 approvals now. | 20:42 |
| ttx | we use Gerrit for all resolutions | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | my only real concern with this one is if we decided we needed to do something in an in-person meeting, but I think we'd want to move that decision out of the meeting anyway | 20:42 |
| dtroyer | ok, I'm on board now | 20:42 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yeah | 20:42 |
| ttx | ok, approving | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: yeah, decisions out of meeting | 20:42 |
| ttx | * Document voting process for `formal-vote` patches (https://review.openstack.org/463141) | 20:42 |
| ttx | This one is pretty close. Charter change, so also needs 9 approvers | 20:42 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/463141 | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | ttx I addressed the comments there | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | should be ok, except for the sphinx thing | 20:43 |
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| ttx | yes you can pile up votes | 20:43 |
| ttx | I'll recheck it and all | 20:43 |
| fungi | do we have any other resolutions/motions up for vote we haven't brought to the mailing list? | 20:44 |
| fungi | just wondering if we're about to merge a process change that will cause us to instantly violate it with other votes currently underway | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | has this one been brought up there? | 20:44 |
| ttx | Not yet | 20:45 |
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| ttx | maybe that should be brought as part of the "Drop TC meeting" thread | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | I think it was | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | in the drop tc meeting this was mentioned | 20:45 |
| sdague | ttx: I thought there was also going to be a waiting period *after* a resolution reached critical mass before landing | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | and it also triggered the work on this patch | 20:45 |
| ttx | sdague: sure, that's additional | 20:46 |
| rockyg | sdague, I thought so, too | 20:46 |
| ttx | sdague: you have a minimal patchset-to-adoption delay | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | mmh, I don't recall anything about the waiting period after the critical mass but I guess we could add it | 20:46 |
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| sdague | that was one of the concerns | 20:46 |
| dhellmann | oh, yeah, that was actually the concern I had | 20:46 |
| ttx | and you have a 2-3 day wait after it reached votes | 20:46 |
| sdague | people wait until some point, then the whole TC votes in 30 minutes and lands it | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 20:47 |
| ttx | those two we have on the docket mostly reflec tthe current status | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: I must have missunderstood your concern. I thought the concern was to have enough time for voting and not really to check the patch until the critical mass was reached | 20:47 |
| fungi | should new resolutions link to the relevant ml thread(s)? | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | misunderstood | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | I can add that, it makes sense | 20:47 |
| dhellmann | fungi : good idea | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | fungi: yes | 20:47 |
| ttx | fungi: yes , like in commit message | 20:47 |
| sdague | a 7 + 7 rule (7 days minimum, 7 days after critical mass) | 20:47 |
| sdague | I also think the 5 votes for critical mass probably needs to change right | 20:48 |
| sdague | that was about quorum | 20:48 |
| ttx | that would slow a *lot*of things down | 20:48 |
| sdague | but with gerrit quorum is | 20:48 |
| fungi | just wondering if that prior discussion reference provision needs to be called out explicitly | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | sdague : so that's a minimum of 8 days but the average is going to be a lot longer | 20:48 |
| sdague | always 7, right? | 20:48 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yeh | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | well, I guess a min of 7 | 20:48 |
| dhellmann | still | 20:48 |
| ttx | Ideally, the critical mass delay would apply to all resolutions | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : my brain is too fuzzy to help with wording right now, but maybe we can talk about it tomorrow | 20:49 |
| ttx | since people may object to what we consider trivial | 20:49 |
| rockyg | heh | 20:49 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: sure thing. I'll dump something and run it by you | 20:49 |
| ttx | so giving them all three day bake-time before pushing approve sounds reasonable | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | we can extend this a bit to cover fungi's concern and the delay after critical mass | 20:50 |
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| dhellmann | ++ | 20:50 |
| ttx | anyway, that's other babystep changes | 20:50 |
| ttx | should not block the other ones | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | yes | 20:51 |
| sdague | sure, 7 seems most community friendly to give folks time to get engaged on things that are going in, 3 seems minimum acceptable | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | do we want to do this in steps, then? and approve this one? | 20:51 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes | 20:51 |
| sdague | I'd honestly like some delay before this change, even if it's the 3 day one | 20:51 |
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| ttx | sdague: sure, happy with holding. | 20:51 |
| ttx | It's just that as long as they are not passed we'll still have it the old way | 20:52 |
| ttx | which says 4 days | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | ok, let's move this one in | 20:52 |
| ttx | so.. incremental changes ftw ? | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | I had -W but removed it | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | ++ | 20:52 |
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| flaper87 | I'll push another patch tomorrow | 20:52 |
| flaper87 | s/patch/review/ | 20:52 |
| ttx | flaper87: if sdague is uncomfortable with passing it now, I see no reason to rush | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | wfm | 20:52 |
| ttx | dhellmann: what wty ? | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | waiting works for me | 20:53 |
| ttx | ok | 20:53 |
| sdague | push it tomorrow, we vote, it lands by next session under the current 4 day rule, right? :) | 20:53 |
| flaper87 | I guess we'll wait | 20:53 |
| dims | :) | 20:53 |
| ttx | My brain hurts. Remember its 11pm and I still fight with jetlag | 20:53 |
| sdague | it also tests doing it without needing a meeting | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | good point | 20:53 |
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| ttx | happy with tarpitting those | 20:54 |
| ttx | * Drop Technical Committee meetings (https://review.openstack.org/459848) | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | not really, I don't think we can test this until this patch lands | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | anyway, let's wait | 20:54 |
| ttx | flaper87: I can just be slooow | 20:54 |
| rockyg | ttx, best cure for that is some fine cognac.... | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | ttx: :) | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | ttx: so, this one we can skip today | 20:54 |
| ttx | flaper87: ok | 20:54 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:54 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:54 | |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 20:54 |
| flaper87 | nice seeing y'all last week | 20:55 |
| ttx | I suspect we'll still have a meeting next week ? | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | I'd like some more TC folks to weigh in on the thread about binary containers before I write a resolution | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-May/116677.html | 20:55 |
| ttx | until https://review.openstack.org/459848 passes ? | 20:55 |
| ttx | dhellmann: it's pretty noisy already :) | 20:55 |
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| flaper87 | dhellmann: btw, thanks for sending that out. I've been involved in this for a bit and it didn't occurred to me. I guess because I'm involved | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | at this point I'm still planning to write a "we don't publish binary artifacts" resolution | 20:55 |
| EmilienM | dhellmann: I found the thread hard to follow | 20:55 |
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| smcginnis | dhellmann: I'm really mixed on that one. I'd like to have them, but I think the risks you pointed out are very legitimate. | 20:55 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: I'd be happy with that, fwiw. | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | ttx: we could "skip" next week as an experiment :-) | 20:56 |
| dims | dhellmann : even at release boundaries? | 20:56 |
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| * fungi wonders if publishing wheels to pypi counts | 20:56 | |
| dhellmann | fungi : that did come up. we don't call wheels "production ready" packages | 20:56 |
| sdague | dhellmann: we've had a lot in that thread already right? you, me, dims, fungi, ttx, smcginnis | 20:56 |
| ttx | I'm happy to consider the cargo-culted tradition of requiring a meeting before approving anything as dead | 20:56 |
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| ttx | if everyone is comfortable wit hthat | 20:57 |
| smcginnis | ttx: +1 | 20:57 |
| dtroyer | ttx: ++ | 20:57 |
| flaper87 | sdague: fwiw, I've commented on the thread already | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | sdague : maybe we're ready? I don't feel like I'm getting much feedback from the other perspective except "but this is what we want to do!" | 20:57 |
| sdague | flaper87: yep, and you :) | 20:57 |
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| flaper87 | ttx: Is something happening next week? Why are we skipping? | 20:57 |
| sdague | sorry, I knew I was going to miss someone adhoc building a list | 20:57 |
| flaper87 | ttx: is that just part of the "let's do fewer meetings"? | 20:57 |
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| flaper87 | don't get me wrong, I'm happy to skip | 20:57 |
| sdague | that's majority providing commentary | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : yeah, just fewer meetings | 20:57 |
| dims | dhellmann : we can chat a bit if you wish before you start writing the resolution | 20:57 |
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| ttx | flaper87: nothing happening. just asking | 20:57 |
| flaper87 | just want to make sure I'm not missing something important | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | sdague : fair, I didn't actually count, but didn't see some folks I expected to see | 20:58 |
| ttx | I can post a weekly report to try | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | I want to be everywhere, I'm supposed to be millennial, this is what we do | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | dims : sure | 20:58 |
| smcginnis | 2 minutes | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | ok | 20:58 |
| sdague | dhellmann: worth poke people you want in there :) | 20:58 |
| * flaper87 chills | 20:58 | |
| ttx | will likely post on Tuesday to keep the cadence | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | sdague : yeah | 20:58 |
| flaper87 | +1 for skipping | 20:58 |
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| sdague | like mordred, I assumed to see him in there | 20:58 |
| cdent | we talked about starting a process of educating the board on better ways to ask the technical community to do stuff? Is there a next step on that? | 20:58 |
| dims | darn, i was hoping we would wrap up early... given what we are trying to do with no-meetings | 20:58 |
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| ttx | unless someone has a preference | 20:58 |
| ttx | cdent: dhellmann volunteered | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | cdent : ttx and I are supposed to start working on a draft of a presentation | 20:58 |
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| ttx | oh, and me too | 20:59 |
| smcginnis | dims: :) | 20:59 |
| cdent | cool, just wanted to check that was still live | 20:59 |
| * dhellmann doesn't remember it quite that way, but ok | 20:59 | |
| dhellmann | cdent : I'd be happy to have your help, if you have time | 20:59 |
| * fungi wonders what he's volunteered for last week and already forgotten | 20:59 | |
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| dims | :) fungi | 20:59 |
| cdent | dhellmann: I can probably find it | 20:59 |
| sdague | fungi: that's why I started an org-mode doc :) | 20:59 |
| dhellmann | cdent : cool, I'll loop you in when we start | 20:59 |
| ttx | alright we are out of time | 20:59 |
| dhellmann | fungi, sdague: I use paper, so that if someone else forgets they don't have my notes | 20:59 |
| ttx | no meeting next week unless we end up absolutely needing one | 21:00 |
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| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 16 21:00:34 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-05-16-20.01.html | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-05-16-20.01.txt | 21:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-05-16-20.01.log.html | 21:00 |
| cdent | thanks! | 21:00 |
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| oneswig | #startmeeting scientific-wg | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 16 21:01:04 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is oneswig. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg' | 21:01 |
| oneswig | aloha! | 21:01 |
| martial | Hi Stig | 21:01 |
| oneswig | #chair martial | 21:01 |
| openstack | Current chairs: martial oneswig | 21:01 |
| martial | so no use of the dedicated channel? | 21:01 |
| oneswig | Hi Martial | 21:01 |
| martial | because there are two it seems :) | 21:01 |
| oneswig | Not as yet ... | 21:01 |
| martial | #science-wg has people in it and #scientific-wg has a bot :) | 21:01 |
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| oneswig | Ah. Well I welcome feedback on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/459884/ | 21:02 |
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| oneswig | #link Agenda for today https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_working_group#IRC_Meeting_May_16th_2017 | 21:02 |
| oneswig | martial: you going to start a science-wg meeting as well? :-) | 21:03 |
| martial | nope, not my intention, pointing people over here if anything | 21:03 |
| oneswig | Do we have Blair today? | 21:03 |
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| oneswig | martial: np, it'll shake out. I think the review means the channel gets eavesdropped | 21:04 |
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| oneswig | OK, shall we start? Hope you had a good summit - sounds like I missed out on plenty | 21:05 |
| oneswig | #topic Boston summit roundup | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Boston summit roundup (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:05 | |
| jmlowe | doh! | 21:05 |
| b1airo | Hi all! I only got back yesterday morning so still not sure which way is up | 21:05 |
| oneswig | Hi jmlowe, all ready for the LUG? | 21:05 |
| oneswig | #chair b1airo | 21:06 |
| openstack | Current chairs: b1airo martial oneswig | 21:06 |
| oneswig | Hi b1airo | 21:06 |
| jmlowe | well the bot one is probably the real one and I'm not in it | 21:06 |
| martial | hey Mike | 21:06 |
| oneswig | ah, but how is real defined in IRC? | 21:06 |
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| jmlowe | oneswig: just signed up yesterday, I'll work registration for a bit to earn my free code | 21:06 |
| jmlowe | Hey martial | 21:06 |
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| oneswig | jmlowe: I've heard the Cambridge team are gearing up for it. | 21:07 |
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| oneswig | So how did it go at the summit? | 21:07 |
| jmlowe | oh, great, I'm trying to wind up for a big use openstack for everything pitch here, it will help | 21:07 |
| b1airo | You mean they're not planning to ditch Lustre in favour of CephFS :-) | 21:07 |
| martial | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Scientific-WG-boston | 21:08 |
| oneswig | Ah thanks martial | 21:08 |
| martial | so a lot of the conversation from the SWG happened in the Etherpad | 21:08 |
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| martial | Blair was kind enough to share his GPU work and some conversations he had with Nvidia | 21:09 |
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| b1airo | Yeah good turn outs for our sessions and some great lightening talks, only negative was no one volunteering to lead anything | 21:09 |
| jmlowe | I'd love to do that some day, safety over speed an all | 21:09 |
| martial | We talked about Identity Federation, more on that through the Open Research Cloud (ORC) Declaration (ORCD?) | 21:09 |
| oneswig | b1airo: ah, too bad. | 21:09 |
| oneswig | Did jmlowe just say he'd love to volunteer to lead? | 21:10 |
| jmlowe | science-wg events were well attended I thought | 21:10 |
| martial | stig: your work was discussed too (Too bad you could not be there) | 21:10 |
| b1airo | And for next summit I'd suggest we simply to do sessions: one double session BoF and one lightening talks | 21:10 |
| martial | #link http://www.stackhpc.com/monasca-log-api.html | 21:10 |
| jmlowe | wait what? (was actually looking over the etherpad to volunteer for something) | 21:10 |
| b1airo | *simply do two | 21:10 |
| martial | b1airo: we might do two Lighting talks too | 21:10 |
| oneswig | martial: cool! | 21:11 |
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| martial | mike: you are still chair for the next HPC | 21:11 |
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| martial | right? If you are, maybe we can use the extra Lighting Talk for the SWG to add some of your proposed talks? | 21:11 |
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| martial | (through the HPC track I mean) | 21:12 |
| jmlowe | Which conference? | 21:12 |
| martial | OpenStack Summit Australia | 21:12 |
| martial | For the telemetry effort, I also mentioned our work here at NIST | 21:12 |
| oneswig | dmoni? | 21:12 |
| oneswig | How is it? | 21:12 |
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| martial | I met with my team today and we are going to try to release dmoni / ansible scripts / heat templates and VM config files mid june | 21:13 |
| martial | github likely | 21:13 |
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| oneswig | martial: cool, keep us informed. | 21:13 |
| martial | then ask people to test it | 21:13 |
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| jmlowe | Oh, um, I didn't know I had signed up to chair the fall summit hpc track, happy to review but showing up in person might be tricky | 21:13 |
| martial | mike: bummer | 21:14 |
| oneswig | martial: How did Cyborg go? | 21:14 |
| martial | stig: Cyborg went well, we had a person from the team do a lighting talk | 21:14 |
| b1airo | The special hardware forum session went reasonably well even if it got sidetracked in Nova scheduling for a while | 21:14 |
| martial | stig: and the full session presented the aim of the project and how to get attached to it | 21:15 |
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| martial | b1airo: true, that was a good discussion as well | 21:15 |
| oneswig | b1airo: was it clear if/how it is distinct from the newly-evolving scheduler traits? | 21:15 |
| martial | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BOS-forum-special-hardware | 21:15 |
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| rbudden | hello | 21:16 |
| martial | Lighting talks | 21:16 |
| martial | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Scientific-WG-Boston-Lightning | 21:16 |
| oneswig | Hi rbudden | 21:16 |
| martial | Hi Robert :) | 21:16 |
| rbudden | hi guys | 21:16 |
| rbudden | got distracted on our ironic cluster, so apologies for being late | 21:16 |
| oneswig | Was there a prize from Arkady for the lightning talks? | 21:16 |
| oneswig | rbudden: that Bridges thing? | 21:16 |
| rbudden | yep ;) | 21:16 |
| oneswig | I've heard of it | 21:16 |
| trandles | o/ sorry I'm late | 21:17 |
| b1airo | oneswig: I haven't yet been back and watched Jay's placement API talks, but I guess the main thing is that Cyborg aims to lifecycle manage accelerators, and may provide scheduling info to Nova via placement as needed | 21:17 |
| martial | stig: Google Home I think | 21:17 |
| oneswig | As an aside, had a weird problem today - all new CentOS images built today are not starting their network, don't know why and it's bugging me... | 21:17 |
| oneswig | Hi trandles | 21:17 |
| b1airo | Jay was in the special hardware session and didn't poopoo anything in particular | 21:17 |
| jmlowe | I might volunteer to take on the Scientific Datasets activity for this cycle | 21:18 |
| b1airo | Actually had most of Nova core in thete | 21:18 |
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| martial | Mike: thank you | 21:18 |
| b1airo | jmlowe: w00t! | 21:18 |
| b1airo | Back in 5... | 21:18 |
| oneswig | b1airo: most of Nova core, no pressure then | 21:19 |
| martial | stig: yes Scientific Dataset was the next item on the list ... Mike just solved this question :) | 21:19 |
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| oneswig | jmlowe: would be great, how is this tackled at IU? | 21:19 |
| martial | stig: then we had an interesting "OpenStack bugbears" | 21:19 |
| jmlowe | A few weeks ago we grabed some bad centos cloud images, they were yanked but not before they caused us problems | 21:19 |
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| oneswig | jmlowe: bad in what way? | 21:20 |
| martial | and then there was Greg and the interview. Talked to the gentleman for a bit on Thursday but he mentioned he would be around today ... is he here? | 21:20 |
| martial | blair and I were also in many of the forum meeting where organization of the WG was discussed | 21:21 |
| oneswig | No sign as yet but we have the questions, should reserve at least 20 mins for that | 21:21 |
| martial | nothing too critical there yet | 21:21 |
| jmlowe | oneswig: not sure, just remember Jeremy talking at the summit about finding some terminally broken cloud images in their repo a couple of weeks back | 21:21 |
| martial | it was a well attended meeting with over 30 people in the room (and names in the Etherpad) | 21:22 |
| oneswig | jmlowe: hmmm... I'll clear caches and try again. Would hate for this to be the root cause... | 21:22 |
| martial | among the todos ... ##Todo: extend book chapter on federation (keystone / OpenID) | 21:22 |
| oneswig | nice work martial - I see quite a few familiar folk in the etherpad, am doubly sorry to miss now! | 21:23 |
| martial | stig: hopefully Australia (might be the one missing that one, reached out to the Federation about travel support ... awaiting to hear back) | 21:23 |
| oneswig | martial: indeed, there's a pre-draft section there that needs much content | 21:23 |
| jmlowe | oneswig: scientific data sets, we have more datasets showing up than we have room for, try to offload to wrangler's 10PB of lustre and reexport over nfs with some per tenant provider vlans, the rest we encourage to put on volumes and export over nfs to their other instances | 21:23 |
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| oneswig | jmlowe: will need to follow up about this. I've got you in my sights :-) | 21:24 |
| martial | related to ORC (I like that acronym of course :) ) | 21:25 |
| jmlowe | OpenID federation with globus auth in horizon is on my todo list, probably just in time for our annual review in July | 21:25 |
| oneswig | We should also cover the cloud congress... move on? | 21:25 |
| oneswig | #topic ORCD / cloud congress | 21:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "ORCD / cloud congress (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:25 | |
| oneswig | take it away martial | 21:25 |
| martial | topics of conversation were Federation / Promoting Teaching & Learning / Improve, Share, and Standardize Operational processes / Making federated cloud usage simple to adopt | 21:26 |
| martial | Assist with Reproducibility / Standards and Open Source / Reduce friction from Policy / Cost / Funding Models | 21:26 |
| martial | Security / Governance / Support / Federation | 21:27 |
| martial | a very busy couple days | 21:27 |
| martial | forgot Resource Sharing | 21:27 |
| martial | the next steps are as follow: | 21:27 |
| oneswig | how many people managed to attend and was it a good mix? | 21:28 |
| jmlowe | the commercial cloud vendors were certainly present | 21:28 |
| martial | - Leave open Google Folder for some time for additional input and then we will compile the declaration. The Google Folder docs will “close” off for edit in 2 weeks. | 21:28 |
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| martial | stig: yes mike is very correct and a few people from the research side | 21:28 |
| martial | https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AmB59CaWBTklH9NIb_6vkif51eXLpapPegf_7ZyulBo/edit | 21:28 |
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| martial | (not sharing the link as pound link to be safe) | 21:28 |
| martial | if you want to add to it/view the discussions, follow the link | 21:29 |
| martial | - Next main meeting in Sydney November around OpenStack Summit. | 21:29 |
| martial | - creation of Working Groups | 21:29 |
| martial | that's pretty much it on the ORC'd | 21:30 |
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| oneswig | Thanks martial for the update | 21:30 |
| martial | stig: feel free to review the link I just shared | 21:31 |
| oneswig | am looking now | 21:31 |
| martial | the conversation is just starting | 21:31 |
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| oneswig | I think it's a victory if there's any cross-fertilisation here | 21:31 |
| martial | same problem as the BoF ... moderator asking a lot things akin to "does this work for everybody" | 21:31 |
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| martial | and nobody saying no | 21:32 |
| martial | so we will see how this evolves | 21:32 |
| oneswig | Before anything is decided, everything is possible | 21:32 |
| oneswig | Good to hear that the effort will continue. | 21:33 |
| oneswig | Was there much discussion on funding? I saw it on the agenda | 21:33 |
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| martial | yes and no | 21:33 |
| martial | there was peopel identified as funding agency present | 21:33 |
| martial | but no real talk about funding sources | 21:34 |
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| martial | my colleague Robert Bohn was on the "funding agency" panel | 21:34 |
| trandles | when discussing funding and governance, "effort" should be capitalised...it's going to take a lot of Effort to tackle those issues | 21:34 |
| martial | but he was here to talk Federation (and the effort run by his team on this matter) | 21:34 |
| martial | Tim: you are very right, it was very ... chaotic | 21:35 |
| martial | (now was it chaotic good or chaotic evil ...) | 21:35 |
| b1airo | Another potential new focus area is cloud workload traces - KateK is looking for a student to work on it in Chameleon over the US summer | 21:35 |
| trandles | I think chaotic good actually | 21:36 |
| oneswig | b1airo: got a link to a role description? Might know some people | 21:36 |
| martial | blair: we ought to publicize this for her | 21:36 |
| trandles | b1airo: we have a workload effort ongoing that might benefit from discussion with a wider audience | 21:36 |
| martial | (like you just did) | 21:36 |
| martial | is Pierre around? | 21:36 |
| oneswig | seems not. | 21:37 |
| b1airo | #link http://www.nimbusproject.org/news/#421 | 21:37 |
| martial | :) | 21:37 |
| oneswig | Thanks b1airo. OK, we ought to look over Gene's questions | 21:37 |
| oneswig | or we'll be dashing madly at the end (as usual).. | 21:38 |
| b1airo | Yes good point | 21:38 |
| oneswig | How about I put the question as topic and you guys chip in with some soundbites? | 21:38 |
| martial | sounds good to me | 21:38 |
| *** zz_dimtruck is now known as dimtruck | 21:39 | |
| oneswig | #topic Why as a student or researcher in university should I care about Scientific Working Group? | 21:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Why as a student or researcher in university should I care about Scientific Working Group? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:39 | |
| oneswig | That's an interesting one, given none of us are actually students and not really researchers either. | 21:39 |
| martial | (everybody feel free to contribute your take on it) | 21:39 |
| oneswig | Mostly I'd say the SWG resonates with the architects and admins of research computing services. | 21:40 |
| b1airo | Yes agreed, those people are sometimes also (or were) researchers | 21:40 |
| oneswig | I've heard of the term "ResOps" before - people dedicated to outreach into research faculties to bring scientists onto the cloud platform most effectively. | 21:40 |
| jmlowe | It's a relatively rare opportunity to connect with those architects and admins | 21:40 |
| b1airo | But possible focus areas like workload traces and dataset sharing are much more concretely relevant to researchers | 21:41 |
| oneswig | It's about bringing the benefits of cloud to their workflows? | 21:41 |
| jmlowe | We have on open job, just posted last week to higher another, Jeremy Fischer from IU is our "ResOps" person and we need another | 21:41 |
| oneswig | #topic Why do researchers choose OpenStack as their IaaS platform? | 21:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Why do researchers choose OpenStack as their IaaS platform? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:42 | |
| martial | or maybe: Researchers and students often encounter needs for High Performance Computing or Distributed Computing, or simply for Infrastructure as a Service components. The SWG help aggregate knowledge of user and operators who have tried to setup and use such models and can help guide the research model for functional solutions | 21:42 |
| b1airo | There is also interest amongst us in scientific application sharing/packaging for cloud | 21:42 |
| martial | (oops too late on the last one) | 21:42 |
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| martial | The traditional HPC model is limited in what it can achieve, novel solutions based on Mesos, Kubernetes, OpenStack allow the deployments of specialized solutions on Commercial Of the Shelf as well as specialized hardware | 21:43 |
| b1airo | Lots of reasons for that - flexibility in architecture, security, data locality | 21:43 |
| oneswig | Research computing services see the advantages of converging a zoo of clusters into a single managed resource. Academia, as much as anywhere, suffers from beige-box "shadow IT" | 21:44 |
| trandles | Because it's free (as-in money and open source) with a large, very active community. I don't feel like I'll suddenly be left with an abandoned platform when choosing OpenStack. | 21:44 |
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| martial | Spartan talk ... | 21:44 |
| rbudden | trandles: +1 | 21:44 |
| martial | #link https://www.openstack.org/videos/barcelona-2016/spartan-a-hpc-cloud-hybrid-delivering-performance-and-flexibility | 21:44 |
| rbudden | cost and community are two major factors | 21:44 |
| oneswig | OpenStack is free if your time costs you nothing! | 21:44 |
| b1airo | Lol | 21:45 |
| rbudden | lol | 21:45 |
| jmlowe | It is the defacto standard, from the campus, to the regional like Minnesota Supercomputing Institute to the National like Jetstream and bridges, and even international SKA, Nektar ( international depends on where you are standing) you have a uniform api for programmable cyber-infrastructure (tm) | 21:45 |
| martial | tm included I see | 21:45 |
| oneswig | b1airo: surprised you're letting the guys from across town get away without some comment on the local derby... | 21:45 |
| jmlowe | I could fill the rest of the meeting with discussion of that term | 21:45 |
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| oneswig | jmlowe: you ever applied for funding for something? :-) | 21:46 |
| trandles | as long as I get everything done that the program demands, my time is free when working on "free" software :P | 21:46 |
| oneswig | #topic What are the key difference between scientific OpenStack Clouds and other general OpenStack Clouds? | 21:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "What are the key difference between scientific OpenStack Clouds and other general OpenStack Clouds? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:46 | |
| b1airo | oneswig: old news, they do what we do 12 months later :-) | 21:46 |
| jmlowe | one pi coined cyber-infrastructure another added programmable | 21:47 |
| oneswig | OK, this is where the bulk of the WG's value add comes in. | 21:47 |
| b1airo | Integration with other research infrastructure is probably the big difference, e.g., major HPC, data archives, instruments | 21:48 |
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| jmlowe | The mix of memory, interconnect, networks local and upstream, experienced HPC staff, access to large parallel filesystems | 21:48 |
| b1airo | Scientific deployments are also often quite open, e.g., outside the institutional firewall | 21:49 |
| trandles | Different workload characteristics (that we're struggling to characterize effectively) | 21:49 |
| oneswig | For us, there's problems that run on our cloud that are affected by Amdahl's law. Cloud workloads typically scale out in a way that scientific applications don't (or can't). Tight coupling between instances is the principal expression of this difference in application. | 21:49 |
| jmlowe | if you are running a big pile of webservers you aren't going to have the same rule of thumb for processors to memory | 21:49 |
| rbudden | jmlowe: +1 unique hardware definitely sets things appart | 21:49 |
| martial | the SWG is about the use cases of integration of novel HPC models within a research cloud, including the use of specialized hardware (from GPUs to NUMA links) as well as specialized methodologies or distributed algorithms (MPI, ...) | 21:49 |
| oneswig | What jmlowe said is pretty much what I menat | 21:49 |
| oneswig | ... meant... | 21:49 |
| martial | (10 minutes mark) | 21:50 |
| oneswig | #topic What kinds of workloads do researchers run on their OpenStack Clouds? | 21:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "What kinds of workloads do researchers run on their OpenStack Clouds? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:50 | |
| martial | Machine learning training models | 21:50 |
| martial | Data Science evaluations | 21:50 |
| b1airo | Easy: all of the workloads, and then some | 21:50 |
| jmlowe | oneswig: you should flog your Lugano talk, the video is posted, very compelling case for doing all the above in research with openstack | 21:50 |
| martial | Natural Language Processing, Machine Translation, Video Surveillance, ... | 21:51 |
| trandles | data science frameworks that don't play well with HPC workload managers (DASK, Spark, etc.) | 21:51 |
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| martial | Tim: did no say HPC in this particular case | 21:51 |
| martial | simply OpenStack | 21:51 |
| jmlowe | I've got a guy from UTSA running NAMD doing mpi over our 10GigE vxlan tenant networks | 21:52 |
| oneswig | We've worked on a couple of generic research computing resources which take all-comers. But we've also seen some very specialised applications such as medical informatics, or radio astronomy. Much of it is categorised as "the long tail of HPC", ie the stuff that doesn't fit well into conventional HPC infrastructure | 21:52 |
| martial | but I agree with earlier comments, think of a topic ... OpenStack can likely do it | 21:52 |
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| oneswig | #topic How can researchers speed up their work with OpenStack? | 21:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "How can researchers speed up their work with OpenStack? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:52 | |
| martial | (and make coffee and pancakes :) ... ) | 21:52 |
| jmlowe | lots and lots of educational allocations on our clouds | 21:52 |
| oneswig | Is this about the fabled metric of "time to paper"? | 21:52 |
| trandles | haha | 21:53 |
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| jmlowe | One great way to speed things up is with orchestration and the higher level openstack projects | 21:54 |
| oneswig | It's about the situations where the development cycles spend as much time between keyboard and chair as they do between compute, network and storage. If researchers can get up and running (and stay up and running) faster with OpenStack, it's a win. | 21:54 |
| trandles | Researchers can speed up their work by using a runtime environment they control at a scale they might not be able to afford or support. | 21:54 |
| jmlowe | so crawl with nova boot, walk with heat, run with sahara | 21:54 |
| oneswig | jmlowe: what's next after that? | 21:54 |
| martial | heat templates, ansible [why is the name failing me now], VM configurations => experiment => mutli tenant + ro data access + SDN=> segregated private experiment run | 21:54 |
| oneswig | #topic What kinds of challenges do researchers face when using OpenStack clouds in their organization? | 21:55 |
| martial | => repeatibility | 21:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "What kinds of challenges do researchers face when using OpenStack clouds in their organization? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:55 | |
| jmlowe | I had a guy who spent a couple of days trying to run some generic k8s heat template from a tutorial somewhere, had him just use magnum and he was off and running on his k8s cluster in 10 min, enter at the level of customization you need and forget the rest | 21:55 |
| b1airo | Biggest challenge we see is that researchers are not sysadmins | 21:56 |
| trandles | b1airo: +1 That's how we justify our entire existence. We focus on the computing infrastructure so they can focus on being scientists. | 21:56 |
| martial | I like that | 21:57 |
| jmlowe | one of the major problems I havae with reproducability is the idea that you keep everything the same, reproducability is not me going into your lab and using your graduated cylinders etc, it is me doing it with my equipment and getting roughly the same results | 21:57 |
| rbudden | b1airo: +1 | 21:57 |
| flanders_ | Scientific-wg tagline?! | 21:57 |
| flanders_ | ;) | 21:57 |
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| b1airo | Yeah and then the corollary challenge for us is how much effort to spend on the infrastructure versus helping with the science | 21:57 |
| jmlowe | b1airo: +1 | 21:58 |
| martial | flanders_ +1 :) | 21:58 |
| rbudden | yep, ‘user services’ vs ‘facilities’ | 21:58 |
| oneswig | There's a difference in mindset. Research computing has this level of order that doesn't apply in cloud. HPC users assume they can book a number of physical nodes and network switches. There's time sharing and strict queuing. In comparison, cloud users get resource like they're crowding round an ice cream shop! | 21:58 |
| oneswig | #topic What features are missing in OpenStack to provide better infrastructure for scientific research? | 21:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "What features are missing in OpenStack to provide better infrastructure for scientific research? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:59 | |
| oneswig | Next meeting perhaps...? This could take a little while | 21:59 |
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| jmlowe | spot instances? | 21:59 |
| trandles | lol but it's our chance to be selfish | 21:59 |
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| oneswig | preemptible instances and resource reservation has been a long-sought-after goal | 21:59 |
| b1airo | Yeah maybe we should carry those two over to next meeting... | 21:59 |
| jmlowe | yeah | 22:00 |
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| oneswig | Alas, we are out of time. | 22:00 |
| martial | (not sure there is a meeting after, so if we need to overrun, others can tell us :) ) | 22:00 |
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| oneswig | pipe up if you're waiting or we'll nail this last question... | 22:00 |
| martial | (and we can move the the #scientific-wg if needed) | 22:01 |
| martial | seems we can go on | 22:01 |
| martial | answers anybody? | 22:01 |
| oneswig | When looking at HPC workloads on OpenStack, exposing physical resource into the virtual world has been key for hypervisor efficiency gains. The next level may be placement within the physical network. How can we deliver the benefits of cloud but pare it down to something so close to the metal? | 22:02 |
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| trandles | that question would have been a lot easier a couple years ago but now I feel like a lot of gaps are being filled | 22:03 |
| oneswig | In essence a lot of the WG members are "physicalising" the virtual resources, and somehow the OpenStack managed infrastructure is still flexible enough to be a game changer. | 22:03 |
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| oneswig | ... final comments ? | 22:04 |
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| oneswig | OK, lets wrap up - thanks everyone | 22:05 |
| oneswig | #endmeeting | 22:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:05 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 16 22:05:12 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:05 |
| rbudden | thanks! | 22:05 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2017/scientific_wg.2017-05-16-21.01.html | 22:05 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2017/scientific_wg.2017-05-16-21.01.txt | 22:05 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2017/scientific_wg.2017-05-16-21.01.log.html | 22:05 |
| trandles | see you in #scientific-wg | 22:05 |
| martial | thanks all | 22:05 |
| martial | stig, blair: are we pointing the reporter to our logs? | 22:06 |
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