Tuesday, 2017-05-16

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hongbin#startmeeting zun03:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 16 03:00:20 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.03:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.03:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'zun'03:00
hongbin#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Zun#Agenda_for_2017-05-16_0300_UTC Today's agenda03:00
hongbin#topic Roll Call03:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: zun)"03:00
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kiseok7hello o/03:01
hongbinthanks for joining the meeting kevinz pksingh kiseok7 lakerzhou03:02
hongbinlet's get started03:02
hongbin#topic Announcements03:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: zun)"03:02
hongbin1. Welcome Fengshengqin to the core team03:02
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hongbin#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-May/116467.html03:02
hongbin2. Boston Summit Recap03:02
hongbinThere are several requirements gathered from the boston summit, i tried to summarize it as following:03:03
hongbin1. Support running containers in VMs.03:03
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hongbin2. Container network and storage are considered as essential features.03:04
hongbin3. These features are considered to be useful: Capsule, NFV, pass secrets to container, acceleration resources (i.e. SRIOV, GPU).03:04
hongbin4. Make the project mature to attract adoption (consider getting some tags from https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/tags/index.html).03:04
hongbin5. Revisit the direction of Kubernetes integration03:04
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hongbinShunli: hey, welcome to the meeting03:04
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hongbinFor #1, that is because there are some use cases for using vm as a isolation03:05
hongbinin addition, ask operation to deploy zun without touching the compute node might be easier for them03:05
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lakerzhouHongbin, for #4, do we have an official installation guide?03:06
hongbinFor #5, the feedback is that it is confusing to have k8s integration in the roadmap03:06
hongbinlakerzhou: yes, i think official installation guide is a must03:07
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hongbinlakerzhou: and there is a BP for tracking that03:07
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/zun-installation-guide03:07
lakerzhouhongbin, thanks for clarification, I missed the BP03:07
hongbinlakerzhou: i would need your help to clarify the nfv parts :)03:08
hongbinlakerzhou: will rely on you about that for the requirements03:08
kevinzSorry my hexchat has been killed by antivirus..03:08
kevinzJust rejoin...03:08
hongbinkevinz: ack03:09
lakerzhouhongbin, sure, I will try my best.03:09
hongbinok, i finished my announcement03:09
hongbinany other announcement from our team member?03:09
hongbin#topic Review Action Items03:09
*** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Items (Meeting topic: zun)"03:09
hongbin#topic Cinder integration (diga)03:10
*** openstack changes topic to "Cinder integration (diga) (Meeting topic: zun)"03:10
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/cinder-zun-integration The BP03:10
hongbinit looks diga is not here03:10
hongbini am going to split this bp into two : 1. cinder driver, 2. fuxi driver03:10
hongbinthat is because this BP might be too big so that the progress is slow03:10
hongbini will talk to diga about that03:11
hongbinok, next one03:11
hongbin#topic Introduce container composition03:11
*** openstack changes topic to "Introduce container composition (Meeting topic: zun)"03:11
hongbin#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/437759/ The design spec03:11
hongbin#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-container-composition The etherpad03:11
hongbinkevinz: want to drive this one?03:11
kevinzOK hongbin03:12
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kevinzThe spec has been review in the last meeting. Also we have finished clarified the APIs03:12
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kevinzSo I think maybe I can do the prototype now?03:14
hongbinkevinz: i think you can03:14
kevinzIf there is something unconsidered, feel free to let me know:-)03:14
kevinzhongbin: OK03:14
hongbinok, thanks kevin. i think the spec looks very close to merge , just need to wait for a while for further feedback03:16
lakerzhouKevinz, quick question, does volume belong to a composition or a container. Do we distinguish the two cases?03:16
kevinzlakerzhou: If the volume is created from a yaml file , I think it belong to the capsule03:17
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hongbinfrom the k8s pod design, all containers inside a pod will share the volume, i think capsule might do something that is similar03:18
hongbinthat is volume belongs to a composition03:18
lakerzhoukevinz, thanks, let me think about the use cases and discuss this later offline03:18
kevinz+1 hongbin03:18
kevinzlakerzhou: OK03:18
hongbinok, any other comment for this topic?03:19
kevinzhongbin: do we have a bp about "support for port mapping"03:19
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lakerzhouHongbin, my concerns was really about the expected behavor of volume for individual containers.03:19
hongbinkevinz: #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/support-port-bindings03:19
hongbinlakerzhou: what is the expected behavior?03:20
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kevinzhongbin: Haha I can reuse this, change port bindings from container host node to network container.03:21
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lakerzhouhongbin, if a volume does not belong to capsule, then should it be persistent?03:22
pksinghdo we need port binding? can you please explain03:22
hongbinlakerzhou: i think you can think of this way (1) for in-capsule container, the volume belongs to the infra container, (2) for bare container (no capsule), the volume belongs to that container03:23
hongbinlakerzhou: in both cases, volume are mounted to a container (infra container or not)03:23
kevinzpksingh: In capsule, we need to binding container port to capsule port for external access03:23
lakerzhouhongbin, thanks for the clarification.03:24
hongbinkevinz: you don't have to use port binding for that03:24
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hongbinkevinz: how about using the --net=container:xxx option?03:24
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kevinzhongbin: you mean add one container to another container's network?03:26
hongbinkevinz: sort of, let the real containers join the network namespace of hte infra container03:26
kevinzhongbin: I see.03:26
hongbinkevinz: this is how I implemented sandbox in before03:27
hongbinkevinz: https://github.com/openstack/zun/blob/master/zun/container/docker/driver.py#L8403:27
hongbinok, any other comment?03:28
kevinzhongbin: Thx. I will check the code to see the details03:28
kevinzhongbin: Nothing from me :-)03:28
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hongbinok, next topic03:28
hongbin#topic Support different container hosting types03:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Support different container hosting types (Meeting topic: zun)"03:29
hongbin#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/zun/+spec/vm-as-container-host03:29
hongbini just wanted to get a quick feedback, do anyone have a comment on this bp?03:29
hongbingood idea? bad idea ?03:29
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kevinzone question.03:30
kevinzThis will rely on heat to launch vm and container?03:30
pksinghhow to run compute service on VMs?03:30
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hongbinpksingh: there are several options03:31
hongbinpksingh: we can either run a zun-compute process at each vm, or remotely talk to the docker api at the vm03:32
pksinghhongbin: hmm, i think if we do it remotely, then how scheduling and data collection will behave?03:33
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hongbinpksingh: yes, this is a challenge, an alternative is to have a lightweight agent running on each vm03:34
pksinghhongbin: yes that can be an option03:34
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hongbinpksingh: or simply move the whole zun-compute to each vm03:35
pksinghwill vms and baremetals will co-exist in the system?03:35
hongbinpksingh: i think this is possible03:35
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pksinghhow about multitenancy for VMs or it will be for sinngle user?03:36
lakerzhouVMs and Baremetals can co-exist in a cloud, but not in a same server. Right?03:36
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hongbinpksingh: i think the goal of running container on vm is using vm as an isolator, therefore, the vm has to belong to a tenant03:37
hongbinpksingh: and containers on a tenant must run on vms on that tenant03:37
lakerzhou+1 no multi-tenant within VM03:38
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hongbinhowever, baremetal could be different...03:38
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pksinghhongbin: when VMs would be created?03:39
hongbinpksingh: it could be dynamically created, or pre-created03:39
lakerzhouHongbin, I thought baremetal would be the same. One tenant create a node via ironic, can other tenant use the node? I need to double check it.03:40
hongbinlakerzhou: i see, if the baremetal is provided by ironic, that it should be one tenant03:40
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Shunli+1 for baremetal still in tenant.03:41
hongbinlakerzhou: there are actually three targets: compute host, ironic instance, vm03:41
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hongbini think we might make it generic, for example, add an attribute in a node that identicate whether this node can run containers on other tenants03:42
lakerzhouhongbin, I agree compute host should support multi-tenant03:43
hongbinlakerzhou: yes, but nova instances might or might not03:43
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hongbinanyway, i will write a spec for this bp to clarify all the details03:44
pksinghhongbin: user will specify where it has to create containers, like VMs, compute hosts or Ironic BMs?03:44
Shunlioh,my poor network. get me crazy. :-(03:44
hongbinpksingh: i think user will specify a "target", the "target" decide how to provision the resource (i.e. container, vm)03:44
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pksinghtarget means where to run containers?03:45
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hongbinpksingh: kind of, it might contain more details if we want03:46
pksinghhongbin: i think this feature will great value addition to zun03:46
pksinghgreat :)03:46
hongbinpksingh: ++03:46
hongbinany other comment ?03:47
hongbin#topic Open Discussion03:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: zun)"03:47
hongbinok, just bring up topic if you have anything that needs to be discussed as a team03:48
pksinghhongbin: how was the response in summit this time ?03:48
ShunliI would like to bring up one topic to discuss.03:48
hongbinShunli: go ahead03:48
ShunliI think bring the container created by K8s or others into zun and managed by zun will add great value to zun.03:49
hongbinShunli: ack03:49
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hongbinShunli: i guess lakerzhou will disagree with you :)03:50
lakerzhou:) I am.03:50
hongbinwe can have a short debate here03:50
lakerzhouContainer created by k8ts should be owned by k8ts03:50
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lakerzhoushunli, we can discuss offline03:51
lakerzhouI am interested to learn a valuable use case if it is there03:51
ShunliBut if zun cannot manage these containers, zun do not touch container deploy. where the containers come from to manage.03:51
ShunliI guess few pepole need create container one by one in zun.03:52
pksinghguys if you discuss on zun channel it will benificial for all of us :)03:52
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hongbinwant to move the discussion to the zun channel?03:52
pksinghno no, i mean no offline discussion on the topic03:53
pksinghob channel it will be good03:53
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hongbinpksingh: +103:53
lakerzhouk8ts own the life cycle of its containers, we cannot do much about it. If there is a real value, I guess k8ts would quick implement the feature03:53
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ShunliI do not think so.03:55
Shunlik8s is aim for deploy and orchestrcate the containers, It not definitely touch much about container mangement.03:56
lakerzhouIf Zun can manage small cluster of containers well especially within the openstack infrastructure, there are many unique use cases such as HPC, NFV03:56
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lakerzhouorchestrate == life cycle management03:57
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Shunliseems time is up. maybe we can dissucss offline.03:59
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lakerzhouI will ask what zun can do to a container, but k8ts cannot.03:59
hongbinok, all, thanks for joining the meeting, overflow at #openstack-zun channel03:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"03:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 16 03:59:51 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)03:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-05-16-03.00.html03:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-05-16-03.00.txt03:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zun/2017/zun.2017-05-16-03.00.log.html03:59
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samPHi all for Masakari..o/04:00
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Dinesh_BhorHi all04:01
samPrkmrHonjo: Dinesh_Bhor hi!04:01
samP#startmeeting masakari04:01
openstackMeeting started Tue May 16 04:01:24 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is samP. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.04:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.04:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'masakari'04:01
samPsagara: hi..04:01
samPabhishekk: hi04:01
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abhishekksamP: hi, how are you, how was the journey04:02
samPright after the summit, mightn not have updates...anyway..lets start with bugs04:02
samPabhishekk: still jetlag... too sleepy in daytime :)04:03
abhishekksamP: same here :)04:03
samPabhishekk: I hate to travel with time diffs... next time would be better..its AUS04:04
samP#topic critical bugs04:04
*** openstack changes topic to "critical bugs (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:04
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abhishekksamP: yes, but PTG will be in US again04:04
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samP#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/masakari/+bug/169076804:04
openstackLaunchpad bug 1690768 in masakari "Notification status will be "error" if recovered instance was "resized"." [High,New]04:04
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samPabhishekk: Right...04:04
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rkmrHonjosamP: Can I split the report to two reports?04:05
samPabhishekk: Im not gonna attend full PTG...:)04:05
samPrkmrHonjo: why?04:06
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samPrkmrHonjo: why would you think so? I can only see one issue here.04:07
rkmrHonjosamP: I wrote two expected behaviour. but , IMO, I think that these are difference problems after that.04:07
abhishekkrkmrHonjo: have you checked sheve case with shelved_offload_time -1 i.e. never offload?04:08
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abhishekki.e. instance is in shelved state and recovery happens?04:08
rkmrHonjonotification status will be going to error, this is severe issue. But, IMO, recovering "stopped->resized" instance as "active" is not severe.04:09
samPabhishekk: why would some one do that, shelved with -1?04:09
rkmrHonjoabhishekk: shelved_offload? This report tell about resize. Would you like to say that resize auto confirm?04:09
abhishekkrkmrHonjo: no this is different, we will test this scenario04:10
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rkmrHonjoabhishekk: Did you say that you tested recovering "resized" instance? And, notification status was "finished" when you tested?04:11
samPshelved with offload_time -1 is diffent scenario but sill could related to same situation, if node goes down.04:12
abhishekksamP: right, we will check this scenario04:12
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samPabhishekk: thanks... let us know the result..04:12
abhishekksamP: sure04:13
abhishekksamP: will let you know on irc or will comment on same bug once done04:13
samPabhishekk: great.. thanks04:13
rkmrHonjoabhishekk: ah, sorry, I misunderstood that you already tested.04:14
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abhishekkrkmrHonjo: no problem04:14
samPrkmrHonjo: you wants to split the report because, 1) Fix the notification status 2)Fix the recovery flow for resized state VMs04:15
samPrkmrHonjo: ^^ Am I right?04:15
rkmrHonjosamP: yes.04:15
rkmrHonjo1 is issue about notification status. But 2 is issue about instance status.04:16
samPrkmrHonjo: correct, but those 2 are still related to same issue, right?04:17
samPrkmrHonjo: If you think its better to split this, then please go ahead.04:18
rkmrHonjosamP: thanks. I'll split after that.04:18
samPrkmrHonjo: sure, thanks.04:18
samPOK then, any other bugs..?04:18
sagaraok, nothing04:19
samPsagara: thanks.04:19
samPlet's move to discussion04:19
samP#topic Discussion points04:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Discussion points (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:19
samP#link Recovery method customization https://review.openstack.org/#/c/458023/04:20
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samPI think it doses make sense to add Mistral to alternative..04:22
samPabhishekk: what would you think about adam's comment?04:22
abhishekksamP: ok,  I will discuss with Tushar San and modify the specs04:23
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samPabhishekk: sure...04:23
samP#action samP Review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/458023/04:23
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samPI will review this^^04:24
samPOther Pike work items04:24
samPNotifying API progress: BP submitted04:24
samPrkmrHonjo: thanks ^^04:24
abhishekksamP: thanks, also review api documentation04:24
samPabhishekk: sure... I will do that04:25
abhishekksamP: could you please share blueprint link for notifying API?04:25
samP#action samP Review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/459516/04:25
rkmrHonjo#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/masakari/+spec/notifications-in-masakari04:26
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abhishekksamP: thanks04:26
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samPrkmrHonjo: thanks...04:26
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samPabhishekk: rkmrHonjo put the link04:26
abhishekkrkmrHonjo: thanks :)04:27
rkmrHonjoI and Takahara describe specs and implement from now on.04:27
samPrkmrHonjo: thank you...04:27
abhishekkrkmrHonjo: great04:28
Dinesh_BhorrkmrHonjo: let me know if any help needed04:28
rkmrHonjoDinesh_Bhor: Thanks!04:28
samPForce Stonith: had some discussion with Adam about this.04:29
samPI will add spec for this one soo. Really sorry for the delay..04:29
samPImprove the masakari-hostmonitor's implementation about detecting split-brain04:29
rkmrHonjosamP: Sorry, no update. I'll update next week.04:30
samPrkmrHonjo: sure...NP04:30
samPOther are Just BPs with no specs.04:30
samP(1) Prevent from flapping feature04:31
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samP(2) Recoverable libvirt events customization04:31
sagaraI'll add 'Prevent from flapping' BP04:31
samPsagara: sure04:31
samPsagara: We can discuss how to do this in separate session or IRC04:32
samPfor (2) Recoverable libvirt events customization, this would be a BP for masakari-monitors.04:32
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samPPlease add them when you have time..04:33
sagarasamP: thanks04:34
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samPLet's move to AOB04:35
samP#topic AOB04:35
*** openstack changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: masakari)"04:35
samPAbout rpm packaging 2/3 done. 1 wating04:35
samPOnce, it is done, I will fix the tags for all masakari packages.04:35
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samPMaxwell Li asked about ansible support for Masakari04:37
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samP#link  Request Ansible support for Masakari http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-April/115944.html04:38
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samPI will discuss with him about how to proceed with this04:38
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rkmrHonjosamP: By the way, you fixed masakariclient package in pypi. thanks. I'll try to add it to global-requirements.04:40
abhishekksamP: ok, we will keep watch on ML04:40
samPrkmrHonjo: yes. But I have push 3.0.0 tag and need to add pip packging jobs to gate04:41
samPabhishekk: thanks...04:42
samP<<Request to all>>04:42
rkmrHonjosamP: Ok. Should I add it after you done?04:42
rkmrHonjosorry for interrupting...04:42
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samPSice we have done presentaions, HA session, in summit, now pepole may ask question about masakari in ML or IRC04:43
samPPlease answer them if you can... or let me know if Im not there..04:44
abhishekksamP: sure04:44
sagaraOK, Sure04:44
rkmrHonjosamP: Sure.04:44
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samPI will also work with openstack HA community for add resorce-agents, and you all are welcome to openstack HA meetings04:46
samP#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#High_Availability_Meeting04:46
samPAny other topics to discuss?04:47
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abhishekksamP: nothing from our side04:48
samPOK then, lets finish bit early...04:48
abhishekkThank you all04:49
Dinesh_Bhorthanks to all04:49
samPOH. Dinesh_Bhor, I will replay to your mail about pacemaker04:49
samPthank you all...04:49
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"04:49
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 16 04:49:35 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)04:49
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-05-16-04.01.html04:49
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-05-16-04.01.txt04:49
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/masakari/2017/masakari.2017-05-16-04.01.log.html04:49
samPthank you all...04:49
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sagarathanks, bye04:50
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seva1021привет всем12:26
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igordcardHi davidsha14:03
igordcardanyone else here for the ccf meeting?14:03
bcafareligordcard: (and others) hello14:03
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igordcard#startmeeting network_common_flow_classifier14:04
openstackMeeting started Tue May 16 14:04:09 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is igordcard. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:04
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:04
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)"14:04
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'network_common_flow_classifier'14:04
igordcard#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Neutron/CommonClassificationFramework#Discussion_Topic_16_May_201714:05
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igordcard#topic Spec status14:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Spec status (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)"14:05
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igordcardthe updated v15 has been reviewed by ihar, sean, louis and thomas... I haven't yet finished replying to everything but hope to do it soon14:06
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igordcarddoes anyone want to discuss anything that hasn't been brought up in the spec yet?14:07
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davidshaI'm good14:07
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bcafarelsame here, did not update as there was nothing to add/-1 for me14:08
bcafarelmost recent reviews have been close to "looks good"14:08
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reedip_thats good14:08
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igordcardgood good, I think now is mainly about polishing technical details that might still influence the API or usability14:10
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igordcardwas talking to kevinbenton at the summit, and as soon as there's a general consistent agreement on this spec, it can be merged and the neutron-classifier repo made available14:11
davidshaigordcard: So the spec is going to be merged? will we still put it in a dev ref in neutron classifier repo?14:12
igordcarddavidsha: yes to both I'd say14:13
igordcarddavidsha: the dev ref will will evolve to reflect the code14:13
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reedip_we finalzed reusing the neutron-classifier repo, right ???14:13
igordcarddavidsha: initially will come from the spec14:13
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igordcardreedip_: finalized how?14:14
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reedip_igordcard :  asking if the old neutron classifier repo which was earlier created would be used for CCF Model ?14:15
davidshaI guess that we decided if we were just using neutron classifier14:15
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igordcardreedip_: yes neutron-classifier repo + wiping it is the recommended option14:17
reedip_igordcard : yeah thats what I was asking14:17
igordcardreedip_: also fine by kevinbenton.. it won't be an actual wipe as anyone can go back in history and retrieve the original neutron-classifier14:17
reedip_igordcard : ok, gr8 then :)14:18
igordcardmoving on..14:18
igordcard#topic PoC status14:18
*** openstack changes topic to "PoC status (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)"14:18
igordcardI haven't put my hands in the code yet :(14:19
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igordcardhow's it going davidsha ?14:19
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bcafarelsame here I hoped to look a bit into it but that is still on my todo list :/14:19
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davidshaSo, I've addressed the comments left on the spec, and fleshed out all the resources. just working on the classification groups and then I'll move onto the unit tests and OpenStack client.14:20
davidshaleft on the PoC*14:20
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davidshaAre there any questions on the PoC?14:21
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igordcardthe classification grouping, is it based on the v15 spec or the earlier ones?14:23
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davidshaLatest one14:23
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igordcardcool cool14:23
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igordcardyou're the main ccf dev at the moment so feel free to roast the spec if something isn't really attainable or for any other reason14:24
davidshaSure! >:)14:25
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igordcardwhile we have no access to the repo, I'd recommend squashing all pending changes in a single patch, I've had the experience in the past of dealing with 4+ dependent patches on gerrit and it's not easy to update/test/repeat14:26
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davidshaigordcard: ack.14:26
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igordcarddavidsha: that mismatch with the semantic types (like tcp and udp being the same), is it resolved?14:27
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davidshaigordcard: Yup, took them straight down from the spec.14:29
igordcarddavidsha: cool cool14:29
igordcardI don't have further questions now, I don't see any others, moving on...14:30
igordcard#topic Open discussion14:30
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: network_common_flow_classifier)"14:30
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igordcardI should rename this topic to Coffee time14:30
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davidshaigordcard: It would be nice ;P14:31
bcafareland you would send coffee to all attendees?14:31
davidshaWere there many here at the Summit?14:31
igordcardbcafarel: no, that's out of scope... you are expected to go grab some coffee :p14:31
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igordcardI only met thomas and pcarver14:32
davidshaigordcard: Any updates from the summit that could affect work going forward?14:32
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igordcarddavidsha: none that I noticed.. the closest is that yes the spec can be merged even we aren't working directly on neutron, and that later the project could become a stadium project14:34
davidshaigordcard: ack14:34
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igordcardalright, this is all14:37
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igordcardthank you for attending and see you in the next meeting!14:37
igordcardalso hope to see you in Denver to discuss post-spec dev and goals14:38
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"14:38
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 16 14:38:32 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)14:38
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2017/network_common_flow_classifier.2017-05-16-14.04.html14:38
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2017/network_common_flow_classifier.2017-05-16-14.04.txt14:38
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/network_common_flow_classifier/2017/network_common_flow_classifier.2017-05-16-14.04.log.html14:38
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yuval#startmeeting karbor15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue May 16 15:00:08 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is yuval. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: karbor)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'karbor'15:00
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yuvalHello and welcome to Karbor's weekly meeting!15:00
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yuvalhey chenying_ :)15:00
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yuval#info chenying in meeting15:00
yuvalchenying_: anyone else coming?15:01
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chenying_I don't know. I am at home.15:01
yuvalI see15:02
yuvalnothing on the agenda today, so:15:02
yuval#topic Open Discussion15:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: karbor)"15:02
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chenying_Just one thing. I will15:02
chenying_ I will register a topic about data protection for openstack day china next month.15:03
yuvalchenying_: great!15:03
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yuvalchenying_: do you need help with anything?15:04
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chenying_This topic, I will speach with jiaopengju. He will introduce some usecase about openstack data portection in his company.15:04
yuvalchenying_: sounds very good. Would it be possible to upload the video afterwards?15:06
chenying_yuval Now  don't need any.  If we finish the topic slide , you can help us to review it.15:06
chenying_Would it be possible to upload the video afterwards?  I don't know.15:06
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yuvalanything else?15:07
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chenying_I make a mistake. The openstack day china will start in next next month.15:07
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yuvalchenying_: ok15:08
yuvalchenying_: anything else you would like to discuss?15:09
chenying_It sounds that the use case about k8s and openstack in this Boston summit is very popular. So we may need think about some use case about container protection in openstack.15:09
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chenying_yuval Do you know the project zun.  container as a service in openstack.15:10
yuvalchenying_: yes15:10
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chenying_zun will expose a api about the snapshot of the container to tenant.15:11
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chenying_So we may need pay some attention to this project, zun.15:12
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yuvalchenying_: I'll look into that15:14
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chenying_yinwei said she want to discuss some usease about volume replication in karbor.15:15
yuvalshe's not here as far as I know15:16
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chenying_Yes. we can discuss it next time.15:17
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yuvalchenying_: alright15:17
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chenying_I don't anything to discuss now.15:18
yuvalchenying_: I want to release a minor of karbor until end of week. Do we have anything open that you know about?15:19
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chenying_sound great. Do you means that is there any patches need be inculed in this version?15:20
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chenying_Some patches about bugfix could be included. It is just a minor version. I think it doesn't matter.15:23
yuvalthanks! :)15:23
yuvalhave a good night15:23
chenying_you too.15:23
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:23
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 16 15:23:38 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:23
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2017/karbor.2017-05-16-15.00.html15:23
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/karbor/2017/karbor.2017-05-16-15.00.txt15:23
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* ayoung sneaks in and gets the good chaior17:59
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lbragstad#startmeeting keystone18:01
openstackMeeting started Tue May 16 18:01:54 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is lbragstad. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:01
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lbragstadping antwash, ayoung, breton, cmurphy, dstanek, gagehugo, henrynash, hrybacki, knikolla, lamt, lbragstad, notmorgan, ravelar, rderose, rodrigods, samueldmq, spilla18:02
lbragstad#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting18:02
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lbragstadhopefully everyone had an uneventful trip home from the summit18:02
ayoungI did18:03
lbragstadayoung: i would hope so!18:03
lbragstadi bet knikolla's 20 minute walk was brutal18:04
ayounghrybacki, edmondsw want to be added to the ping list?18:04
knikollalbragstad: you bet, haha.18:04
hrybackiayoung: I'm on it already :)18:04
edmondswayoung I thought I already was... yes18:04
* ayoung can18:04
ayoung't read18:04
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knikollaedmondsw: we cleaned it up a few meetings ago18:05
lbragstad#topic announcements18:05
*** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:05
lbragstad#info pike-2 is three weeks away18:05
lbragstadwhich means we'll be in spec freeze for pike18:05
lbragstadI'll be prioritizing spec reviews the next couple weeks18:06
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lbragstadWe also need a documentation liaison18:07
lbragstadi understand a lot of folks are strapped for resources, but it anyone interested in picking this up?18:08
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hrybackiwhat exactly would that entail?18:08
lbragstadgood question18:08
lbragstadthe documentation liaison is responsible for keystone related documentation changes to the openstack-manuals and other projects under the docs team18:09
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cmurphyI'm interested but their meeting time is a little inconvenient for my time zone18:09
lbragstadthey also serve as a point of contact for the the docs team if they have any keystone questions18:09
ayoungrodrigods, I wonder if we could enlist martin for that role?18:09
hrybackilbragstad: I'm interested but would like to talk more about18:09
lbragstadcmurphy: understood18:10
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lbragstad#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Documentation_Team_Meeting18:10
lbragstad^ that's the actual meeting information18:10
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lbragstadthere is some more information about the role in the wiki18:11
lbragstad#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons#Documentation18:11
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lbragstadayoung: rodrigods is martin an openstack contributor?18:12
samueldmqlbragstad: fyi there is a current effort for migrating some docs into our tree18:12
gagehugoo/ sorry I'm late18:12
samueldmqsuch as the admin-guide18:12
lbragstadsamueldmq: yep - that was another big discussion at the forum18:12
hrybackilbragstad: I can attend the meeting this week as a stop-gap. Don't want to commit just yet to taking it over completely18:12
lbragstad#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/doc-future18:12
samueldmqtalked to asettle at the summit about that, I took a few working items for our Outreach internship18:12
samueldmqlbragstad: nice, thanks for the linked, I haven't looked into that yet18:13
lbragstadhrybacki: that makes sense18:13
lbragstadthe tl;dr was that the docs team got hit hard recently18:13
lbragstadthe discussion was focused on how we can maintain all the documentation work18:13
* hrybacki nods18:13
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lbragstadnow that we have less people working on docs18:13
lbragstadone of the proposals was to move more of the documentation into the project specific repositories and then have the guides rendered by pulling all the guides together18:14
lbragstadasettle: drove that session, so she's probably be able to clear up the direction there18:15
lbragstadregardless of what happens, we'll have some documentation work coming down the pipe and I wanted to get an idea of who, if anyone, would be interested in that kind of work18:15
* cmurphy happy to help18:16
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hrybackiI enjoy docs so I'm a candidate18:16
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knikollahappy to help but not able to guarantee a constant commitment to docs work.18:16
lbragstadand that's fine18:17
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lbragstadi know a lot of folks here are stretched thin, too18:17
lbragstadif that means sharing the responsibility then i think that's ok18:17
lbragstadwe'll just have to make sure communication is on point with the docs team, too18:17
ayoungGot it.  We'll start browbeating people.18:18
lbragstadI can take an action item to follow up with asettle18:18
lbragstad#action lbragstad to follow up with asettle about docs liaison18:18
samueldmqlbragstad: sjain will be glad to help too, since that is what her internship is about :)18:18
lbragstadsamueldmq: sweet!18:18
samueldmqbut sure if we have lots of folks we can move much faster, which is great18:19
lbragstad#topic spec proposal freeze exception18:19
*** openstack changes topic to "spec proposal freeze exception (Meeting topic: keystone)"18:19
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/463547/ - Retrieving policy via the API18:19
knikollawe should probably have an etherpad with pain points of our docs. and just let people sign up for individual items18:19
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ayounglbragstad, so many no.18:20
lbragstadthere are two specification proposed to keystone that enable patrole to test keystone's policy18:20
lbragstadwhich is great, but I think we need to work with them on generating the policy using oslo.policy bits instead of fetching it via that API18:20
lbragstadfor $REASONS18:20
samueldmqlbragstad: what is patrole ?18:21
ayoungRBAC testing18:21
samueldmqI've seen that review but haven't looked into it yet, so I guess now is a good time to learn :)18:21
ayoungsamueldmq, it is, in essence, a tool for checking RBAC.18:21
edmondswlbragstad invite the author to our policy discussions?18:21
knikolla#link https://docs.openstack.org/developer/patrole/18:21
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ayounginvite the whole team18:21
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lbragstadsamueldmq: patrole is a framework for testing policy18:22
* ayoung sobs. Not so quietly.18:22
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lbragstadsamueldmq: it will plug into tempest and exercise various policy scenarios in a functional manner18:22
lbragstad(at least from what I can tell)18:22
samueldmqhmm that's an interesting idea18:22
edmondswsounds like they're proposing similar specs to other project, or plan to18:22
ayoungYeah, interesting.  In a "Chinese Fortune" meaning of the term18:23
edmondswand we don't want that...18:23
lbragstadfrom what i can tell - it would be only used for patrole to fetch the policy18:23
lbragstadso it would be an API for testing18:23
ayoungIf only we had some dynamic way of distributing policy....18:23
lbragstadand we've already taken a stance on policy API s18:23
samueldmqlbragstad: cool, that's an interesting idea18:24
edmondswI'd say give them some time in our next policy meeting (or the next one they can make), have them explain patrole, and us explain what we're doing, and try to get on the same page18:24
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samueldmqI wonder if that could evolve to something operators could use in the future to check their policies18:24
lbragstadedmondsw: ++18:24
samueldmqif they're really expressing what they wanted to18:24
lbragstadi invited them to this meeting but the timing might not have been the best18:24
ayoungknikolla, and I would be willing to give the authors our talk from the summit via video conf18:24
edmondswayoung wasn't it recorded?18:25
ayoungedmondsw, it was, but I would give it again just for them18:25
lbragstadimho it sounds like what they want is a capabilities API18:25
gagehugocould just post the link?18:25
edmondswayoung oh, so you have time to burn after all... ;)18:25
lbragstadimplemented in each of the services18:25
samueldmqputting the link along with the negative review would be enough18:25
knikolla#link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYYzl0rFCVU18:25
samueldmqso that they can learn more about the history/context/plans18:26
ayoungWill do18:26
edmondswayoung doesn't sound like the middleware thing is really what they're after anyway18:26
lbragstad#link https://www.openstack.org/videos/boston-2017/per-api-role-based-access-control18:26
lbragstadi think they want a list of things they can do18:26
edmondswyeah, that's a bit different... as you said, capabilities18:26
lbragstad(at least that's what I got from reading the spec)18:26
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knikollalfrom the spec i got the feeling they just want a way to 'wget policy.json'18:27
lbragstadknikolla: right18:27
lbragstadthat's how i understood it18:27
cmurphythat's different from 'what can i do'18:27
ayoungAre we going to go with the RBAC in middleware approach?18:28
lbragstadi'd also classify another question which is "what is possible"18:28
edmondswthey talk about 2 things... one being policy.json and another being "when policy is being handled within the code (oslo.policy case)"... not sure what exactly they mean by the latter18:28
ayoungbefore we discuss the patrole thing further, lets talk about the proposal that will actually answer their question if we go with it18:29
edmondswsounds to me like cases where checks are hardcoded18:29
ayoungthey wrote based on policy because that is all there was.18:29
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knikollaayoung: ++, we need to get spec approval for pike before spec freeze18:29
ayoungthey wrote "patrole" based on policy.18:29
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ayoungIs any core prepared to -2 the RBAC in middleware approach?18:30
lbragstadI have concerns with upgrades18:30
lbragstadand maintenance18:30
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lbragstadand the url18:30
ayounglbragstad, enough to -2?18:30
samueldmqI am concerned about how this fits with the ongoing efforts18:31
samueldmqI think we can eventually get there18:31
edmondswsamueldmq +118:31
samueldmqbut not now, let's keep moving and keep that in the wishlist18:31
ayoungenough to -2 it for Pike?18:31
lbragstadbased on the url - possibly, because i found a lot of value in what dstanek had to say about it18:31
samueldmqand we will eventually get back to it as we move18:31
samueldmqayoung: for me I think so18:32
samueldmqfor Pike would be -2, for backlog/wishlist/future repo I'd +218:32
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ayoungsamueldmq, it will, then, never happen18:32
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samueldmqwe are making progress.18:32
ayoungsamueldmq, no we are not18:32
ayoungyou are just realizing all the mess I realized years ago18:33
samueldmqI think the right time will be when we get to split the role checks from the scope checks18:33
samueldmqonce we have only role checks somewhere18:33
knikollasamueldmq: it's already been approved for backlog. and the code is almost done.18:33
samueldmqwe can decide where we put those checks (middleware or whatever)18:33
knikollasamueldmq: it can be turned off and nothing changes.18:33
knikollai got some very positive feedback from operators who want to see this after seeing the talk.18:33
ayoung<yoda>Hear you nothing that I say?</yoda>18:33
lbragstadlike i said - my concern is with the url18:34
ayounglbragstad, please state that concern completely.18:34
samueldmqwhat if when we get to the point (in cross project) that we split role/scope check and then look at the middleware approach18:34
samueldmqand no, we wanted to do it differently now that we got to this point18:34
lbragstadI don't think it make sense for keystone to have to require knowing about the url and maintain that mapping when other parts of OpenStack already have to do that18:34
samueldmqI am not opposed to it at all, just wanted enough input that this is going to go along very well with the cp efforts18:35
lbragstadif that breaks - i can't imagine what kind of operator pain that is going to cause18:35
ayoungif what breaks?18:35
knikollalbragstad: middleware only knows the url. if you want to use compute:list_servers. it still needs the mapping.18:35
samueldmqkbyrne: so what's the point of performing role checks in 2 places?18:36
ayoungThey can't do it today.  There is no way to gether up the list of URLs for a project except manually.18:36
lbragstadthe current proposal requires the keystone server to know that POST /v2/servers -> compute:boot_instance18:36
ayounglbragstad, nope18:36
samueldmqfor me it would make sense if we were going to only check roles in the middleware, checking in 2 places is going to be painful imo18:36
ayoungthe current proposal has a catch all that means it needs to know nothing about a remote service to be drop in compatible.  It only has to know about  POST /v2/servers  if you want a specific role for that18:37
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ayoungand none of the other projects know about any of the keystone roles with the exception of admin18:37
ayoungthe service role is in the config file, managed by us18:37
lbragstadok - true or false, keystonemiddleware has to query keystone to determine if a user can do a specific operation18:37
ayoungneutron has some non-created roles in their policy file18:37
edmondswknikolla when you say the code is almost done, does that include things like caching so performance isn't awful?18:37
ayounglbragstad, true (query and cache the rbac data)18:38
ayounglbragstad, it has to do that now, when it validates a token18:38
ayoungquery and cache18:38
ayoungedmondsw, caching is not yet done. It will be cached in memcache along side the token data18:38
lbragstadsure - but it's asking keystone because we're allowing the ability to store all operations in openstack in keystone based on the url, because that's what middleware requires in order to map to the operation, right?18:39
ayounglbragstad, not just18:39
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ayounglbragstad, we need to map an operation to a role.  Roles are data in Keystone. The RBAC data is the maintainance of this mapping18:39
ayoungit has to be maintained somehow, and this is an operator task18:39
knikollaedmondsw: i haven't played around with caching yet, but i can devote enough time to having this work well for Pike if it gets approved for it.18:40
ayoungthere are workflows that are impossible without the RBAC mechanism]18:40
ayoungknikolla, ++18:40
ayounglets get it in, disabled by default, and let people start working with it18:40
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ayoungthere is no other way to do this18:41
lbragstadi think there is18:41
samueldmqis there the concept of experimental yet ?18:41
edmondswayoung define "this"18:41
ayoungedmondsw, the 3 use cases from my presentation,. and the workflow I layed out at the end18:41
lbragstadedmondsw: finding out "which role I need to do X"18:41
edmondswthis doesn't accomplish that18:42
ayoungedmondsw, yes it does.  Not 100%, because of policy, obviously, but it is a start18:42
ayoungif it is used, it does answer that question18:42
ayoungif it is not used, there is no way to answer it18:42
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edmondswayoung so you  say yes, and then contradict yourself and agree that it doesn't :)18:42
lbragstadwell - the rbac in middleware approarch requires us add an API to keystone that let's keystone answer that question18:42
ayoungedmondsw, unless we make every single service give up an API to report their policy, we cannot work with tp-olicty,.json to do this18:43
edmondswlbragstad no, it allows keystone to give you an answer with <100% certainty18:43
edmondswpolicy will always still be there18:43
ayoungedmondsw, so we make progress.  And then we get rid of RBAC in policy18:43
edmondswayoung you can never do that18:43
edmondswnever ever ever18:43
edmondswnor should you want to18:43
edmondswI don't disagree with the middleware idea... I just don't want it taking attention away from more important things, or being touted as more than it is18:44
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ayoungedmondsw, just becuase you guys are doing some propriatey back system lookup does not mean I want to keep supporting the existing mechanism.  Just because someone could throw a custom middleware, or even proxy in front of a Keystone server does not mean I should care about that use case18:45
edmondswayoung you're confusing me with someone else... I'm not doing any proprietary back system lookup18:45
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edmondswI don't work with Henry18:45
edmondswnothing I'm saying has anything to do with that18:45
ayoungedmondsw, heh18:45
ayoungedmondsw, why on earth would you want to continue to enforce RBAC in policy?  Aside from momentum?18:46
edmondswbecause there are some things you have to check that you can't check in middleware because it doesn't known enough18:46
lbragstadlike what owns a given resource, for example?18:47
knikollabut that's the scope check18:47
edmondswthere are so many very different examples18:47
edmondswe.g. changing one attribute needing a different check than changing another attribute on the same resource18:47
ayoungedmondsw, none of that is RBAC18:47
ayoungownership is scope check18:48
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edmondswayoung if we had a real ownership concept18:48
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edmondswI don't want to get sidetracked on that... consider my example18:48
edmondswsee above18:48
ayoungedmondsw, what example?18:48
edmondswthe line that starts with e.g.18:49
ayoungcurrently done via actions API for example in Nova18:49
ayoungwe have the follow on spec for bodykey18:49
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edmondswayoung, no, that's a separate but another good example18:49
ayoungthat can be done in middleware18:49
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ayoungwon't be done this release due to caution, but not a reason to keep using policy18:50
edmondswayoung I don't believe you'll be able to solve that in middleware. Maybe some subcases, but not all of them18:50
knikollaedmondsw: if updating both attributes is done via the same url, a follow up proposal checks the keys in the body of the json. if both keys are there, it checks for both roles required by each key.18:51
edmondswayoung what is the link for that spec anyway?18:51
edmondswI don't see how you can handle all possible cases, where the key could be buried layers down in the json hierarchy, same key could mean different things in different places, etc.18:51
knikolla#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/456974/18:52
ayoungedmondsw, can be vs is.  We have an openstack that is out there now.  Based on the today restrictions, we have something that can work.  If we deploy it, it will become tomorrows guidleine for new API construction18:52
ayoung#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/452198/18:53
ayoungMine is the spec for this release.  Kristi's is for the follow on18:53
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edmondswwe've just jumped 8 steps ahead of where we should be starting... we even agreed the other day that this middleware stuff only helps with what we defined as "future goals" and not our urgent priorities18:55
lbragstadedmondsw: what are the urgent priorities in your opinion?18:55
edmondswas listed in your spec on policy goals18:56
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edmondswthat's what I'm referring to18:56
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lbragstadso admin-ness18:58
edmondswI'm not against the middleware... I just don't see why we're spending time on it right now18:58
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ayoungand that work was submitted and an approach was approved and the fixes are being reviewed and updated18:58
ayoungbeacuse it is broken and because I have people asking for things from Openstack that can only happen if we have that mechanism18:59
edmondswsuch as?18:59
lbragstadi personally think that in order to provide the answer to "who can do what" question, we need more service involvement18:59
ayoungthe Read only role can be done with just that patch and policy as is today18:59
ayoungfine grained roles19:00
edmondswayoung you have to know that's not true19:00
ayoungedmondsw, I know that it is absolutely true based on the state of OpenStack today.19:00
ayoungYou need a catch all, and you need explicit rules.19:00
lbragstadwe're out of time19:01
lbragstadwe can carry on in #openstack-keystone19:01
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 16 19:01:12 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:01
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ttxdhellmann, dims, dtroyer, EmilienM, flaper87, fungi, johnthetubaguy, mordred, sdague, stevemar: around ?20:00
ttx(yes, I manually edit my ping lists)20:00
flaper87ttx: lol20:00
ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue May 16 20:01:01 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
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*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
ttxWas great seeing you all last week in person!20:01
ttxOur agenda for today is at:20:01
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:01
* edleafe wanders aimlessly20:01
ttxReminder that you can all use #info #idea and #link to help build a more readable summary20:01
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ttx#topic Boston feedback and immediate action items20:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Boston feedback and immediate action items (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
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ttxWanted to spend a few minutes to get for feedback on the Forum20:01
ttxerr -for20:01
ttxand also to write down a few #action points for the TC from the discussions that happened there20:02
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ttxin case we missed anything we need to track20:02
ttx(beyond the ones that are already on the agenda for this meeting)20:02
notmynamettx: I have one...20:02
ttxnotmyname: sure shoot20:02
notmynamea community member expressed some frustration that our team's sessions were restricted, yet there were plenty of empty rooms, especially on wed-thurs20:03
ttxnotmyname: two things on that20:04
ttxI would agree that Thursday afternoon was under-utilized20:04
ttxOriginal plan was to keep it for continuing discussion20:04
ttxand last-minute topics20:04
ttxbut in the end almost nobody scheduled anything there20:04
dims(sign up for Thu afternoon was here - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Forum/Boston2017)20:04
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smcginnisHacking rooms were available but rarely used.20:05
diablo_rojoThere were also hacking rooms available to drop int.20:05
diablo_rojosmcginnis, lol20:05
mriedemi have feedback unrelated to ^20:05
smcginnisdiablo_rojo: ;)20:05
ttxAs far as empty rooms on Wed and Thu morning, not sure.... we limited the number of concurrent sessions to 3. Are you suggesting we hhould have had more ?20:05
* rockyg wanders in and sits near edleafe 20:05
notmynameright. we ended up scheduling something on that wiki page (i missed that announcement). and we dropped in a hackingroom20:05
* edleafe passes rocky_g some popcorn20:05
sdagueI think the thurs sign up process was maybe less clear, it would have been nice to have a whiteboard in the hallway for those sessions instead of the wiki. Something that could be more organic.20:05
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notmynamettx: yes, I think more concurrent sessions would have been fine20:06
smcginnissdague: I like that idea.20:06
rockygsdague, ++20:06
ttxnotmyname: noted20:06
notmynamettx: just wanted to raise the point as feedback. I'll pass it along, too20:06
ttxWhat do you guys think ? CAn we afford more than 3 concurrent sessions ?20:06
flaper87ttx: we can certainly try20:06
sdaguepersonally I appreciated it being only 3 way20:06
mriedemi wouldn't20:06
flaper87also, I like sdague's idea20:06
flaper87or, at least, we should communicate better the sign up process20:07
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mriedemthe point of the forum is to get people together, in a forum, for discussion, right?20:07
dtroyerEven with only three there were some notable conflicts, but not as many as I recall from the past20:07
ttxI feel like I was not overextended, but then I'm not involved  in day-to-day development20:07
sdaguebecause I was only double booked twice instead of 6 or 8 times20:07
mriedemtoo much concurrency and you miss out on things20:07
mriedemsdague: yeah20:07
dims++ mriedem20:07
ttxwe could also have most days with 3 concurrent sessions, and one day with 4, I guess20:07
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dhellmannyeah, planning for the overflow sessions was a little last minute. something physical on site might work better next time.20:07
ttxalthough from a space utilization perspective it's suboptimal20:07
flaper87I agree it'd be awesome to avoid overlaps as much as possible.20:07
flaper87ttx: 3x3 and 1x4 ++20:08
mriedemi'd never want to see >3 concurrent sessions20:08
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sdaguemriedem: ++20:08
rockygmriedem, ++20:08
mriedemhell i'd be happy if there were 220:08
dtroyereven without personal conflicts, getting a critical mass of "the right people" into a room is easier with fewer sessions20:08
ttxnotmyname: do you feel like you missed on user feedback due to less sessions being available ?20:08
ttx(comapred to previous summits)20:08
mriedemi didn't get user feedback20:08
mriedemwas my complaint20:08
sdaguethe point of this was to get us more mixing together, not replicating the 20+ track PTG everyone in a corner20:08
mriedemor operator really,20:08
ttxsdague: indeed20:08
rockygJust have bookable (on site, like sdague said) rooms so adhoc sessions can happen around emerging topis20:08
mriedemin general i didn't feel the forum was any different from the first 2 days of design summit in previous summits20:08
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fungii liked that pretty much all of the forum sessions were non-project-specific but were instead topic-specific20:09
flaper87fungi: ++20:09
dhellmannfungi : ++ that's what we wanted20:09
dimsagree fungi20:09
sdaguemriedem: pretty much20:09
mriedemi still got the feeling most things were dev-driven,20:09
mriedemand dev-centric20:09
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notmynamettx: definitely. previous summits had much better feedback and progress made. although we made use of the hacking rooms when we found them, we even had someone (an operator and new to the community--first in-person event) didn't have any idea where any of the rest of the community was20:09
mriedemdevs: "here is the plan, what do you think?"20:09
ttxmriedem: in my sessions I saw a lot more ops involved than we used to, but maybe those were the less dev-oriented20:09
mriedemeveryone else: "crickets"20:09
dimsregarding project onboarding, some teams got good turnout, others did not20:10
flaper87mriedem: that was the hardest thing to avoid but I think many of us intervined more than once suggesting to not dive into "dev" specific discussions20:10
notmynamettx: so the discoverability of sessions, especially in the hacking rooms, was bad. a whiteboard schedule would really help with that (a la sdague)20:10
flaper87mriedem: any example of the sessions where that happened?20:10
flaper87That was not the case for most of the sessions I attended20:10
sdagueso, except for the quotas session, I feel like the operators there were the same ones that were always there. Maybe it's a transition, but it didn't seem to be substantially different in that regard20:10
flaper87so it'd be interesting to know when that happened20:10
mriedemsdague: same20:10
mriedemflaper87: the claims in the scheduler session,20:10
dhellmannare we competing with presentations?20:10
mriedemthe instance/volume affinity HPC session20:10
sdaguedhellmann: there is also that20:10
mriedemdhellmann: yes20:10
dhellmannI don't know how to avoid that, if we are20:10
mriedemthere are also talks i'd like to attend20:11
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mriedemlike people presenting on their upgrade and scaling issues20:11
mriedemi feel that's where the 'user' feedback is20:11
mriedembut the devs are all in a forum cave20:11
ttxI prioritized forum sessions because they are not recorded and you actively participate in them. I just watch videos later20:11
rockygmriedem, ++20:11
dimsi was able to get to some talks and learn new stuff20:11
flaper87ttx: that's what I do20:11
notmynamemriedem: ++20:11
flaper87mostly prioritize on talking to people at the forum while I can20:11
dhellmannttx: I do that, too. I wonder if we're still too segregated, though, if ops are prioritizing presentations over discussions20:12
mriedemflaper87: i generally talk to the people i know,20:12
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mriedemit's the people i don't that i'm missing20:12
cdentI really wanted to attend more sessions than I did (to learn new stuff) but felt obliged to be in the forum rooms (mostly 102 for some reason)20:12
sdaguethe problem with watch later, is it doesn't provide a clear way to continue the conversation20:12
mriedemsdague: yes,20:12
mriedemand my todo list grows and i don't actually watch later :)20:12
ttxDon't hesitate to mention that in the official feedback form20:12
rockygThere are ops sessions (some inforums, some in presos) that have really good info for devs.  the LDT sessions talk about workarounds for scaling and other issues20:12
sdagueheh, yeh, I hear you20:12
flaper87cdent: mostly 102 here too :P20:12
dimsoverall, it was a great positive experience for me inspite of the daily commute :)20:13
ttxhappy to receive suggestions on how to improve the format20:13
mriedemanyway, in general i get the sense that unless i ask a very specific question to ops/users (where are the users anyway?), i don't get any feedback20:13
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rockygI thought it was great for the first time effort20:13
smcginnisrockyg: +120:14
ttxsome sessions were definitely still sounding like old design summit discussions, but some others definitely had a new feel20:14
mriedemalso, record the onboarding rooms next time20:14
ttxmriedem: ++20:14
mriedemthat's hard with audio though20:14
EmilienMmriedem: yes, many projects thought the same thing20:14
mriedembut, mics i gues20:14
smcginnisWe may just record our own.20:14
cdentdespite it having some bumps I thought it was way better having the forum than having the old style summit20:14
fungia number of the "presentations" were actually feedback-oriented panels too20:14
rockygfungi, ++20:14
ttxok, let's move on -- but feel free to express your feedback on the ML, the survey or by email to me20:15
fungifor example, in the security panel we spent about 50% of the time on prepared questions and the other 50% on audience questions20:15
smcginnisfungi: And one "we ran OpenStack and here are all the failures we had." :/20:15
mriedemis there a feedback thread?20:15
rockygpart of the confusion, especially for users/ops this round was they thought they needed to get into the presentation schedule when they really could have done better in the forum20:16
ttxRecording on-boarding and improving late scheduling and publicizing the hacking room schedule are all no-brainer optimizations in my opinion20:16
dimsmriedem : go ahead start one :) i didn't see any20:16
notmynamettx: +120:16
ttxadding more parallel discussions is likely a two-edged sword20:16
EmilienMI've also heard some feedback about some Forum sessions without much agenda. For the next Forum, I would maybe be a little bit more engaged to push people to prepare the sessions they're supposed to lead20:16
ttxEmilienM: yes, in some preperation was a bit minimal20:17
EmilienMI've found some Forum sessions well prepared, where the discussion happened smoothly and finished before time20:17
dimsone fish bowl did not have a moderator, but that kind of stuff happens..20:17
EmilienMon the opposite, some sessions didn't have any etherpad or agenda before it started20:17
EmilienMdims: the one with k8s & orchestration?20:17
dimsEmilienM : y and we drafted the kolla-kubernetes folks in the room to run it20:17
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EmilienManyway, we should maybe push people to prepare better next time20:18
ttxI propose we move on20:18
rockyglots of Asia folks didn't get their visas20:18
flaper87ttx: ++20:18
ttxlet's quickly discuss post-forum action steps for a number of already-submitted proposals20:18
smcginnisI wonder if there's a good way we can tag forum sessions to let operators know which ones it would be good for them to attend.20:18
smcginnisOther than all.20:18
ttx#topic Next steps for TC vision20:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for TC vision (Meeting topic: tc)"20:18
dims++ smcginnis20:18
smcginnisttx: Yes, let's move on.20:18
ttxProposed draft is here:20:18
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/45326220:18
ttxFeedback was collected on the review, on an anonymous survey and in a summit presentation last week20:18
ttxMy brain is a bit mushy but I think someone signed up to collect and organize the feedback into a number of changes20:19
ttxsome cosmetic that we can probably easily include20:19
sdaguettx: I don't think anyone actually committed to the next phase20:19
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ttxsome deeper that might require further discussion20:19
cdentbecause my todo list got crowded like mriedem's, I haven't seen it yet: is the video of that session going to be coherent enough to watch now?20:20
sdaguewe definitely need probably two folks to tackle the next draft20:20
ttxsdague: might have been gothicmindfood or johnthetubaguy during that session20:20
ttxbut then I don't want to sign them up if my memories are unclear20:20
ttxI'll follow up with them20:20
sdaguehaving done the last draft consolidation, it would be good if it was "notme" so that other voices mix in here, and I don't accidentally skew too far20:20
cdentI'll happily volunteer to help someone else (who was at the session and has access to the feedback survey)20:21
ttx#action ttx to follow up with gothicmindfood / johnthetubaguy re: next step on TC vision20:21
ttx#info cdent volunteers to help20:21
* dtroyer can also help out here20:21
ttx#info so does dtroyer20:21
smcginnisI still need to review the session recording. I'll try to add comments as I do that as well.20:21
ttxok moving on, since we are missing the people who actually know what's going on20:21
sdaguethere weren't a ton of feedback in the session itself20:21
sdaguethe spread sheet is the big one20:22
ttxfeedback in-session was mostly positive20:22
* flaper87 is sad to have missed that session20:22
sdagueespecially as there are bunches of conflicting commentary in there, so it's going to require judgement20:22
ttxbut yes, not much. A lot of people were hearing the vision for the first time20:22
flaper87(one example of conflicting sessions for me)20:22
sdagueyeh, timing it against the pike goals session was less than ideal20:22
flaper87ttx: good stuff20:22
ttxflaper87: I hear one of the speakers was awesome. Just sayin20:22
smcginnissdague: +120:23
flaper87ttx: :P20:23
ttx#topic Next steps for assert:supports-api-compatibility20:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for assert:supports-api-compatibility (Meeting topic: tc)"20:23
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/41801020:23
ttxThe dependency review (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/421846) was approved recently20:23
ttxcdent suggested on the review that it should be renamed to supports-api-interoperability20:23
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ttxnot sure how many cycles mtreinish will dedicate to a new rev20:23
cdentonly because that word became the key word when resolving the dependent review20:23
ttxor if someone should pick it up20:23
ttxsince it's missing a few things as dhellmann noted20:24
sdaguehe's out today, I can poke him when he's back later this week to see20:24
cdentI can do it if necessary. I'm a bit more concerned about the issue with the api-wg potentially being the arbiter20:24
ttxsdague: ok20:24
cdentwhich would be an important change in activity20:24
ttx#action sdague to follow up with mtreinish to see if he will push it to the end20:24
dhellmanncdent : I asked about that because it wasn't clear who would manage the tag. I don't know if it's a good idea or not.20:25
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cdentme neither :)20:25
ttx#topic Next steps for deprecate postgresql in OpenStack20:25
*** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for deprecate postgresql in OpenStack (Meeting topic: tc)"20:25
dhellmannit has worked for some other teams, but maybe the WG isn't able to do it? or doesn't want to?20:25
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/42788020:25
ttxsdague already refreshed it based on the forum discussion20:25
ttxI think we can iterate on the review20:25
smcginnisBased on the change proposed, it doesn't seem to me like "deprecate" is the right term now.20:25
sdague#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-May/116642.html20:26
ttxI would not mind if we also explained the kind of involvement we'd like to see to revert the course of action20:26
sdaguefor ml thread (which there is no response on yet, though there is some gerrit responses)20:26
sdaguettx: that has never been successful20:26
ttxwhich makes me think -- how is the ML/Gerrit discussion mix working for you all20:26
ttxfeels like it doesn't realy make it easy to follow20:27
dhellmannyeah, my impression was we were going to close this off and *not* ask for action to reverse it20:27
sdagueasking folks that don't really think there is value in doing the work, to assess and break down the work for other people into chunks they might decide to fund, just isn't a virtuous cycle20:27
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ttxsdague: in other words.. If there was someone who made it work (without us asking) would we likely revert the course ?20:28
sdaguettx: yes20:28
rockygAnyone talk to the postgres folks in the marketplace?20:28
ttxok, I can follow that. Agree asking hasn't served us that well anyway20:28
sdagueif you are removing work from existing upstream folks20:28
rockygTotally unaware of Postgres in the control plane.20:28
sdagueyou get the freedom and trust to also do things important to you20:28
rockygsuggested they get involved.20:28
ttxsdague: yes, by "involved" I mean shouldering significant QA work otherwise20:28
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fungicynical perhaps, but i see the main benefit in outlining what would be needed to reverse direction is that we can point at it to show that we provided an alternative nobody took us up on20:28
rockygThey might be good candidates to recruit20:28
rockygfungi, ++20:29
smcginnisttx: by "shouldering the QA work", do you mean running CI outside of our normal gate?20:29
dhellmannrockyg : see the links above, and the forum session. We've been trying to get people to get involved in the discussion.20:29
ttxsmcginnis: no I mean helping the QA team by funding people to work there20:29
sdaguettx: and proactively engaging in upgrade work, and reviews in projects that need an rdbms (which is many of them)20:29
sdagueit's not just final QA, it's being early in the process as well20:29
smcginnisttx: Seems like a narrow slice of work to have specific people called out as "funded for pg" work.20:30
sdaguesmcginnis: so, if I change the title to "Be clear about support level of Postgresql", you would be happier20:30
dimssdague : some downstream teams seem to start looking at stuff only after we push out a release so by then it's too late20:30
rockygdhellmann, these guys were clueless.  Users, but no idea how to participate.  but interested when they heard about it.20:30
ttxanyway, we have a way forward on this one. I think the proposed resolution reflects the consensus at the Forum alright20:30
cdentdo we need to be detailed about the need for support? Can't we just say "we are asking for support to make this go"?20:30
ttxlet's see how it flies20:30
smcginnissdague: If we are planning to ultimately remove support, then I think deprecation is the right term.20:30
sdaguecdent: yes, we need to be clear20:31
fungii still see taking away seemingly arbitrary choices in deployment as one of the primary solutions we have for addressing the common complaints about complexity20:31
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sdaguebecause that's exactly the ask20:31
* cdent shrugs20:31
smcginnissdague: If we are saying, "pg is meh" then I don't think it is.20:31
sdague"tell me how much engineering budget I have to ask for for this feature to not go away"20:31
dimssmcginnis : i think "Deprecate" is appropriate signal if we want folks to wake up and pitch in20:31
fungipeople did speak up saying "taking away an option i'm using doesn't simplify openstack" but of course having taken it away before they ever started to evaluate openstack likely would have simplified things for them later20:31
ttxI propose we continue the discussion on the review/ML. It's not as if the discussion was deadlocked there yet20:32
sdaguefungi: right, and we right now aren't really being honest with folks20:32
smcginnisdims: Fair enough. It certainly conveys a greater sense of urgency.20:32
ttx#topic Next steps for "Describe what upstream support means"20:32
*** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for "Describe what upstream support means" (Meeting topic: tc)"20:32
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/44060120:32
ttxDo we still want this one ?20:32
ttxI guess I should follow up with johnthetubaguy20:33
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ttxbut maybe you have opinions20:33
dhellmannjohnthetubaguy says on a recent comment that he's planning to update it next week-ish20:33
ttxoh I see it now20:33
ttxok, let's do that20:33
sdagueI'd say let him drive the discussion when he can20:33
dhellmannI think we do want this, to some extent. It relates to that discussion we had at the forum about explaining how things make it into openstack.20:33
dimsmixed feelings ttx, is a blog post enough to point people at?20:33
sdaguedhellmann: sure, it feels very "opensource 101" to me20:33
dhellmannyeah, I think it's ok to let this one ride another week to see how things go20:34
sdaguewhich I guess is fine, but seems odd to have to do it20:34
fungiit seems a useful statement to me at least20:34
ttxIn general, do you feel like mixing discussion in Gerrit and ML is working ? Or should we have different types of discussions on each ?20:34
dhellmannsdague: right, and as you pointed out even the linux foundation had to explain that for a long time. I think we expected people to already understand it more than we should have.20:34
fungithough still not sure whether the project-teams guide might be a better location for that info20:34
sdaguedhellmann: yep, good point20:34
dimsfungi : right +120:34
ttxAsking because notmyname was wondering where to post (and ended up copy-pasting on both, which is a bit ineffective)20:35
notmynamettx: it's doubly effective! ;-)20:35
sdaguettx: I feel like the ML threads have brought people into the discussions that would have not otherwise20:35
dhellmannttx: a comment as long as notmyname's really only needed to go on the ML20:35
dhellmannsdague : ++20:35
dhellmannthat was one reason I started the thread about binary packages there instead of directly with a resolution20:35
sdaguedhellmann: agreed, it's actually kind of hard to ack in the gerrit review because you can't break it up20:35
ttxsdague: I guess we'll develop an habit about what fits on which20:35
sdagueI honestly think they all need the ML threads20:35
dhellmannI think we should work out details on the ML, and refine language on the review20:36
ttxIdeally I would like the review to carry simple discussions and the ML to carry hard ones20:36
dhellmanngoing deep into policy in gerrit is hard20:36
fungithe current division/duplication between ml and gerrit comments seems likely to be a transitional state20:36
sdaguedhellmann: yeh20:36
ttxBut in the end we want our objection heard so we post everywhere20:36
sdaguehonestly, if the API Key thing had been only in gerrit, it just would have circled for 2 more years20:36
ttxwhich I find a bit ineffective20:36
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ttxanyway, let's give it a bit more time20:37
sdaguefungi: also, I agree, it's super early in the transition, new habbits have not yet formed20:37
fungiover time people seeing complex discussion limited to the ml will follow suit20:37
ttx#topic Change the target for this goal to uWSGI not Apache mod_wsgi20:37
*** openstack changes topic to "Change the target for this goal to uWSGI not Apache mod_wsgi (Meeting topic: tc)"20:37
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/46095120:37
smcginnisttx: I think you are right that it is transitional, but we will always have some overlap.20:37
dhellmannttx: maybe the folks driving the "drop the meeting" stuff can write down some suggestions as part of replacing the stuff we have now20:37
EmilienMttx: this one looks ready to approve20:37
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ttxEmilienM: yes, approving now20:37
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EmilienMsdague: thanks for this change ^20:37
sdagueEmilienM: no prob20:37
ttx#topic Moving away from weekly meetings20:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Moving away from weekly meetings (Meeting topic: tc)"20:38
sdaguewith that in, the nova completion of it should hit this week as well20:38
ttxOK, several pieces20:38
dhellmannttx: when do the new "wait a week" rules go into effect? I suppose we have to approve them first.20:38
EmilienMsdague: wouhouuu !20:38
ttxdhellmann: exactly20:38
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ttx* Stop requiring public IRC meetings20:38
sdaguedhellmann: the last vote there was May 420:38
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/46207720:38
sdagueoh, sorry, there were 4 today20:38
* sdague bad at reading dates20:38
ttxStill think we need that one in before we start making changes20:38
flaper87I like it20:39
ttxreflects current situation better anyway20:39
ttxLet me approve the sphinx cap now that it has two review20:39
ttxthen we can recheck that one20:39
flaper87folks can still vote, fwiw20:40
ttxbut feel free to pile up votes20:40
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ttxI would rather pass this one first rather than hold the rest of our community to a higher standard than the TC's20:40
ttx* Remove the proxying section from charter20:40
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/46314020:40
ttxThis one is I think a no-brainer. It's a charter change though, so we need 9 approvers20:40
flaper87dtroyer: had a concern that other folks answered20:40
ttxI just can't remember the last time we sued it20:41
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flaper87(which is mainly the reason I proposed this)20:41
smcginnisSeems pretty much unnecessary at this point.20:41
sdaguethere have only been 2 votes in the last 6 months, right?20:41
ttxsdague: and none used proxying20:41
sdagueand they were more about getting a sense of the room, and not binding20:41
smcginnisAt 9 approvals now.20:42
ttxwe use Gerrit for all resolutions20:42
dhellmannmy only real concern with this one is if we decided we needed to do something in an in-person meeting, but I think we'd want to move that decision out of the meeting anyway20:42
dtroyerok, I'm on board now20:42
ttxdhellmann: yeah20:42
ttxok, approving20:42
flaper87dhellmann: yeah, decisions out of meeting20:42
ttx* Document voting process for `formal-vote` patches (https://review.openstack.org/463141)20:42
ttxThis one is pretty close. Charter change, so also needs 9 approvers20:42
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/46314120:43
flaper87ttx I addressed the comments there20:43
flaper87should be ok, except for the sphinx thing20:43
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ttxyes you can pile up votes20:43
ttxI'll recheck it and all20:43
fungido we have any other resolutions/motions up for vote we haven't brought to the mailing list?20:44
fungijust wondering if we're about to merge a process change that will cause us to instantly violate it with other votes currently underway20:44
dhellmannhas this one been brought up there?20:44
ttxNot yet20:45
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ttxmaybe that should be brought as part of the "Drop TC meeting" thread20:45
flaper87I think it was20:45
flaper87in the drop tc meeting this was mentioned20:45
sdaguettx: I thought there was also going to be a waiting period *after* a resolution reached critical mass before landing20:45
flaper87and it also triggered the work on this patch20:45
ttxsdague: sure, that's additional20:46
rockygsdague, I thought so, too20:46
ttxsdague: you have a minimal patchset-to-adoption delay20:46
flaper87mmh, I don't recall anything about the waiting period after the critical mass but I guess we could add it20:46
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sdaguethat was one of the concerns20:46
dhellmannoh, yeah, that was actually the concern I had20:46
ttxand you have a 2-3 day wait after it reached votes20:46
sdaguepeople wait until some point, then the whole TC votes in 30 minutes and lands it20:47
ttxthose two we have on the docket mostly reflec tthe current status20:47
flaper87dhellmann: I must have missunderstood your concern. I thought the concern was to have enough time for voting and not really to check the patch until the critical mass was reached20:47
fungishould new resolutions link to the relevant ml thread(s)?20:47
flaper87I can add  that, it makes sense20:47
dhellmannfungi : good idea20:47
flaper87fungi: yes20:47
ttxfungi: yes , like in commit message20:47
sdaguea 7 + 7 rule (7 days minimum, 7 days after critical mass)20:47
sdagueI also think the 5 votes for critical mass probably needs to change right20:48
sdaguethat was about quorum20:48
ttxthat would slow a *lot*of things down20:48
sdaguebut with gerrit quorum is20:48
fungijust wondering if that prior discussion reference provision needs to be called out explicitly20:48
dhellmannsdague : so that's a minimum of 8 days but the average is going to be a lot longer20:48
sdaguealways 7, right?20:48
sdaguedhellmann: yeh20:48
dhellmannwell, I guess a min of 720:48
ttxIdeally, the critical mass delay would apply to all resolutions20:49
dhellmannflaper87 : my brain is too fuzzy to help with wording right now, but maybe we can talk about it tomorrow20:49
ttxsince people may object to what we consider trivial20:49
flaper87dhellmann: sure thing. I'll dump something and run it by you20:49
ttxso giving them all three day bake-time before pushing approve sounds reasonable20:50
flaper87we can extend this a bit to cover fungi's concern and the delay after critical mass20:50
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ttxanyway, that's other babystep changes20:50
ttxshould not block the other ones20:50
sdaguesure, 7 seems most community friendly to give folks time to get engaged on things that are going in, 3 seems minimum acceptable20:51
dhellmanndo we want to do this in steps, then? and approve this one?20:51
ttxdhellmann: yes20:51
sdagueI'd honestly like some delay before this change, even if it's the 3 day one20:51
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ttxsdague: sure, happy with holding.20:51
ttxIt's just that as long as they are not passed we'll still have it the old way20:52
ttxwhich says 4 days20:52
flaper87ok, let's move this one in20:52
ttxso.. incremental changes ftw ?20:52
flaper87I had -W but removed it20:52
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flaper87I'll push another patch tomorrow20:52
ttxflaper87: if sdague is uncomfortable with passing it now, I see no reason to rush20:52
ttxdhellmann: what wty ?20:53
dhellmannwaiting works for me20:53
sdaguepush it tomorrow, we vote, it lands by next session under the current 4 day rule, right? :)20:53
flaper87I guess we'll wait20:53
ttxMy brain hurts. Remember its 11pm and I still fight with jetlag20:53
sdagueit also tests doing it without needing a meeting20:53
dhellmanngood point20:53
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ttxhappy with tarpitting those20:54
ttx* Drop Technical Committee meetings (https://review.openstack.org/459848)20:54
flaper87not really, I don't think we can test this until this patch lands20:54
flaper87anyway, let's wait20:54
ttxflaper87: I can just be slooow20:54
rockygttx, best cure for that is some fine cognac....20:54
flaper87ttx: :)20:54
flaper87ttx: so, this one we can skip today20:54
ttxflaper87: ok20:54
ttx#topic Open discussion20:54
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*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:54
ttxAnything else, anyone ?20:54
flaper87nice seeing y'all last week20:55
ttxI suspect we'll still have a meeting next week ?20:55
dhellmannI'd like some more TC folks to weigh in on the thread about binary containers before I write a resolution20:55
dhellmann#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-May/116677.html20:55
ttxuntil https://review.openstack.org/459848 passes ?20:55
ttxdhellmann: it's pretty noisy already :)20:55
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flaper87dhellmann: btw, thanks for sending that out. I've been involved in this for a bit and it didn't occurred to me. I guess because I'm involved20:55
dhellmannat this point I'm still planning to write a "we don't publish binary artifacts" resolution20:55
EmilienMdhellmann: I found the thread hard to follow20:55
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smcginnisdhellmann: I'm really mixed on that one. I'd like to have them, but I think the risks you pointed out are very legitimate.20:55
flaper87dhellmann: I'd be happy with that, fwiw.20:56
dhellmannttx: we could "skip" next week as an experiment :-)20:56
dimsdhellmann : even at release boundaries?20:56
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* fungi wonders if publishing wheels to pypi counts20:56
dhellmannfungi : that did come up. we don't call wheels "production ready" packages20:56
sdaguedhellmann: we've had a lot in that thread already right? you, me, dims, fungi, ttx, smcginnis20:56
ttxI'm happy to consider the cargo-culted tradition of requiring a meeting before approving anything as dead20:56
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ttxif everyone is comfortable wit hthat20:57
smcginnisttx: +120:57
dtroyerttx: ++20:57
flaper87sdague: fwiw, I've commented on the thread already20:57
dhellmannsdague : maybe we're ready? I don't feel like I'm getting much feedback from the other perspective except "but this is what we want to do!"20:57
sdagueflaper87: yep, and you :)20:57
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flaper87ttx: Is something happening next week? Why are we skipping?20:57
sdaguesorry, I knew I was going to miss someone adhoc building a list20:57
flaper87ttx: is that just part of the "let's do fewer meetings"?20:57
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flaper87don't get me wrong, I'm happy to skip20:57
sdaguethat's majority providing commentary20:57
dhellmannflaper87 : yeah, just fewer meetings20:57
dimsdhellmann : we can chat a bit if you wish before you start writing the resolution20:57
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ttxflaper87: nothing happening. just asking20:57
flaper87just want to make sure I'm not missing something important20:57
dhellmannsdague : fair, I didn't actually count, but didn't see some folks I expected to see20:58
ttxI can post a weekly report to try20:58
flaper87I want to be everywhere, I'm supposed to be millennial, this is what we do20:58
dhellmanndims : sure20:58
smcginnis2 minutes20:58
sdaguedhellmann: worth poke people you want in there  :)20:58
* flaper87 chills20:58
ttxwill likely post on Tuesday to keep the cadence20:58
dhellmannsdague : yeah20:58
flaper87+1 for skipping20:58
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sdaguelike mordred, I assumed to see him in there20:58
cdentwe talked about starting a process of educating the board on better ways to ask the technical community to do stuff? Is there a next step on that?20:58
dimsdarn, i was hoping we would wrap up early... given what we are trying to do with no-meetings20:58
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ttxunless someone has a preference20:58
ttxcdent: dhellmann volunteered20:58
dhellmanncdent : ttx and I are supposed to start working on a draft of a presentation20:58
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ttxoh, and me too20:59
smcginnisdims: :)20:59
cdentcool, just wanted to check that was still live20:59
* dhellmann doesn't remember it quite that way, but ok20:59
dhellmanncdent : I'd be happy to have your help, if you have time20:59
* fungi wonders what he's volunteered for last week and already forgotten20:59
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dims:) fungi20:59
cdentdhellmann: I can probably find it20:59
sdaguefungi: that's why I started an org-mode doc :)20:59
dhellmanncdent : cool, I'll loop you in when we start20:59
ttxalright we are out of time20:59
dhellmannfungi, sdague: I use paper, so that if someone else forgets they don't have my notes20:59
ttxno meeting next week unless we end up absolutely needing one21:00
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 16 21:00:34 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-05-16-20.01.html21:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-05-16-20.01.txt21:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2017/tc.2017-05-16-20.01.log.html21:00
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oneswig#startmeeting scientific-wg21:01
openstackMeeting started Tue May 16 21:01:04 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is oneswig. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg'21:01
martialHi Stig21:01
oneswig#chair martial21:01
openstackCurrent chairs: martial oneswig21:01
martialso no use of the dedicated channel?21:01
oneswigHi Martial21:01
martialbecause there are two it seems :)21:01
oneswigNot as yet ...21:01
martial#science-wg has people in it and #scientific-wg has a bot :)21:01
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oneswigAh.  Well I welcome feedback on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/459884/21:02
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oneswig#link Agenda for today https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_working_group#IRC_Meeting_May_16th_201721:02
oneswigmartial: you going to start a science-wg meeting as well? :-)21:03
martialnope, not my intention, pointing people over here if anything21:03
oneswigDo we have Blair today?21:03
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oneswigmartial: np, it'll shake out.  I think the review means the channel gets eavesdropped21:04
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oneswigOK, shall we start?  Hope you had a good summit - sounds like I missed out on plenty21:05
oneswig#topic Boston summit roundup21:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Boston summit roundup (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:05
b1airoHi all! I only got back yesterday morning so still not sure which way is up21:05
oneswigHi jmlowe, all ready for the LUG?21:05
oneswig#chair b1airo21:06
openstackCurrent chairs: b1airo martial oneswig21:06
oneswigHi b1airo21:06
jmlowewell the bot one is probably the real one and I'm not in it21:06
martialhey Mike21:06
oneswigah, but how is real defined in IRC?21:06
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jmloweoneswig: just signed up yesterday, I'll work registration for a bit to earn my free code21:06
jmloweHey martial21:06
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oneswigjmlowe: I've heard the Cambridge team are gearing up for it.21:07
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oneswigSo how did it go at the summit?21:07
jmloweoh, great, I'm trying to wind up for a big use openstack for everything pitch here, it will help21:07
b1airoYou mean they're not planning to ditch Lustre in favour of CephFS :-)21:07
martial#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Scientific-WG-boston21:08
oneswigAh thanks martial21:08
martialso a lot of the conversation from the SWG happened in the Etherpad21:08
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martialBlair was kind enough to share his GPU work and some conversations he had with Nvidia21:09
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b1airoYeah good turn outs for our sessions and some great lightening talks, only negative was no one volunteering to lead anything21:09
jmloweI'd love to do that some day, safety over speed an all21:09
martialWe talked about Identity Federation, more on that through the Open Research Cloud (ORC) Declaration (ORCD?)21:09
oneswigb1airo: ah, too bad.21:09
oneswigDid jmlowe just say he'd love to volunteer to lead?21:10
jmlowescience-wg events were well attended I thought21:10
martialstig: your work was discussed too (Too bad you could not be there)21:10
b1airoAnd for next summit I'd suggest we simply to do sessions: one double session BoF and one lightening talks21:10
martial#link http://www.stackhpc.com/monasca-log-api.html21:10
jmlowewait what? (was actually looking over the etherpad to volunteer for something)21:10
b1airo*simply do two21:10
martialb1airo: we might do two Lighting talks too21:10
oneswigmartial: cool!21:11
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martialmike: you are still chair for the next HPC21:11
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martialright? If you are, maybe we can use the extra Lighting Talk for the SWG to add some of your proposed talks?21:11
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martial(through the HPC track I mean)21:12
jmloweWhich conference?21:12
martialOpenStack Summit Australia21:12
martialFor the telemetry effort, I also mentioned our work here at NIST21:12
oneswigHow is it?21:12
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martialI met with my team today and we are going to try to release dmoni / ansible scripts / heat templates and VM config files mid june21:13
martialgithub likely21:13
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oneswigmartial: cool, keep us informed.21:13
martialthen ask people to test it21:13
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jmloweOh, um, I didn't know I had signed up to chair the fall summit hpc track, happy to review but showing up in person might be tricky21:13
martialmike: bummer21:14
oneswigmartial: How did Cyborg go?21:14
martialstig: Cyborg went well, we had a person from the team do a lighting talk21:14
b1airoThe special hardware forum session went reasonably well even if it got sidetracked in Nova scheduling for a while21:14
martialstig: and the full session presented the aim of the project and how to get attached to it21:15
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martialb1airo: true, that was a good discussion as well21:15
oneswigb1airo: was it clear if/how it is distinct from the newly-evolving scheduler traits?21:15
martial#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BOS-forum-special-hardware21:15
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martialLighting talks21:16
martial#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Scientific-WG-Boston-Lightning21:16
oneswigHi rbudden21:16
martialHi Robert :)21:16
rbuddenhi guys21:16
rbuddengot distracted on our ironic cluster, so apologies for being late21:16
oneswigWas there a prize from Arkady for the lightning talks?21:16
oneswigrbudden: that Bridges thing?21:16
rbuddenyep ;)21:16
oneswigI've heard of it21:16
trandleso/  sorry I'm late21:17
b1airooneswig: I haven't yet been back and watched Jay's placement API talks, but I guess the main thing is that Cyborg aims to lifecycle manage accelerators, and may provide scheduling info to Nova via placement as needed21:17
martialstig: Google Home I think21:17
oneswigAs an aside, had a weird problem today - all new CentOS images built today are not starting their network, don't know why and it's bugging me...21:17
oneswigHi trandles21:17
b1airoJay was in the special hardware session and didn't poopoo anything in particular21:17
jmloweI might volunteer to take on the Scientific Datasets activity for this cycle21:18
b1airoActually had most of Nova core in thete21:18
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martialMike: thank you21:18
b1airojmlowe: w00t!21:18
b1airoBack in 5...21:18
oneswigb1airo: most of Nova core, no pressure then21:19
martialstig: yes Scientific Dataset was the next item on the list ... Mike just solved this question :)21:19
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oneswigjmlowe: would be great, how is this tackled at IU?21:19
martialstig: then we had an interesting "OpenStack bugbears"21:19
jmloweA few weeks ago we grabed some bad centos cloud images, they were yanked but not before they caused us problems21:19
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oneswigjmlowe: bad in what way?21:20
martialand then there was Greg and the interview. Talked to the gentleman for a bit on Thursday but he mentioned he would be around today ... is he here?21:20
martialblair and I were also in many of the forum meeting where organization of the WG was discussed21:21
oneswigNo sign as yet but we have the questions, should reserve at least 20 mins for that21:21
martialnothing too critical there yet21:21
jmloweoneswig: not sure, just remember Jeremy talking at the summit about finding some terminally broken cloud images in their repo a couple of weeks back21:21
martialit was a well attended meeting with over 30 people in the room (and names in the Etherpad)21:22
oneswigjmlowe: hmmm... I'll clear caches and try again.  Would hate for this to be the root cause...21:22
martialamong the todos ... ##Todo: extend book chapter on federation (keystone / OpenID)21:22
oneswignice work martial - I see quite a few familiar folk in the etherpad, am doubly sorry to miss now!21:23
martialstig: hopefully Australia (might be the one missing that one, reached out to the Federation about travel support ... awaiting to hear back)21:23
oneswigmartial: indeed, there's a pre-draft section there that needs much content21:23
jmloweoneswig: scientific data sets, we have more datasets showing up than we have room for, try to offload to wrangler's 10PB of lustre and reexport over nfs with some per tenant provider vlans, the rest we encourage to put on volumes and export over nfs to their other instances21:23
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oneswigjmlowe: will need to follow up about this. I've got you in my sights :-)21:24
martialrelated to ORC (I like that acronym of course :) )21:25
jmloweOpenID federation with globus auth in horizon is on my todo list, probably just in time for our annual review in July21:25
oneswigWe should also cover the cloud congress... move on?21:25
oneswig#topic ORCD / cloud congress21:25
*** openstack changes topic to "ORCD / cloud congress (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:25
oneswigtake it away martial21:25
martialtopics of conversation were Federation / Promoting Teaching & Learning  / Improve, Share, and Standardize Operational processes / Making federated cloud usage simple to adopt21:26
martialAssist with Reproducibility / Standards and Open Source  / Reduce friction from Policy / Cost / Funding Models21:26
martialSecurity / Governance /  Support / Federation21:27
martiala very busy couple days21:27
martialforgot Resource Sharing21:27
martialthe next steps are as follow:21:27
oneswighow many people managed to attend and was it a good mix?21:28
jmlowethe commercial cloud vendors were certainly present21:28
martial- Leave open Google Folder for some time for additional input and then we will compile the declaration.  The Google Folder docs will “close” off for edit in 2 weeks.21:28
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martialstig: yes mike is very correct and a few people from the research side21:28
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martial(not sharing the link as pound link to be safe)21:28
martialif you want to add to it/view the discussions, follow the link21:29
martial- Next main meeting in Sydney November around OpenStack Summit.21:29
martial- creation of Working Groups21:29
martialthat's pretty much it on the ORC'd21:30
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oneswigThanks martial for the update21:30
martialstig: feel free to review the link I just shared21:31
oneswigam looking now21:31
martialthe conversation is just starting21:31
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oneswigI think it's a victory if there's any cross-fertilisation here21:31
martialsame problem as the BoF ... moderator asking a lot things akin to "does this work for everybody"21:31
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martialand nobody saying no21:32
martialso we will see how this evolves21:32
oneswigBefore anything is decided, everything is possible21:32
oneswigGood to hear that the effort will continue.21:33
oneswigWas there much discussion on funding?  I saw it on the agenda21:33
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martialyes and no21:33
martialthere was peopel identified as funding agency present21:33
martialbut no real talk about funding sources21:34
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martialmy colleague Robert Bohn was on the "funding agency" panel21:34
trandleswhen discussing funding and governance, "effort" should be capitalised...it's going to take a lot of Effort to tackle those issues21:34
martialbut he was here to talk Federation (and the effort run by his team on this matter)21:34
martialTim: you are very right, it was very ... chaotic21:35
martial(now was it chaotic good or chaotic evil ...)21:35
b1airoAnother potential new focus area is cloud workload traces - KateK is looking for a student to work on it in Chameleon over the US summer21:35
trandlesI think chaotic good actually21:36
oneswigb1airo: got a link to a role description?  Might know some people21:36
martialblair: we ought to publicize this for her21:36
trandlesb1airo: we have a workload effort ongoing that might benefit from discussion with a wider audience21:36
martial(like you just did)21:36
martialis Pierre around?21:36
oneswigseems not.21:37
b1airo#link http://www.nimbusproject.org/news/#42121:37
oneswigThanks b1airo.  OK, we ought to look over Gene's questions21:37
oneswigor we'll be dashing madly at the end (as usual)..21:38
b1airoYes good point21:38
oneswigHow about I put the question as topic and you guys chip in with some soundbites?21:38
martialsounds good to me21:38
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oneswig#topic Why as a student or researcher in university should I care about Scientific Working Group?21:39
*** openstack changes topic to "Why as a student or researcher in university should I care about Scientific Working Group? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:39
oneswigThat's an interesting one, given none of us are actually students and not really researchers either.21:39
martial(everybody feel free to contribute your take on it)21:39
oneswigMostly I'd say the SWG resonates with the architects and admins of research computing services.21:40
b1airoYes agreed, those people are sometimes also (or were) researchers21:40
oneswigI've heard of the term "ResOps" before - people dedicated to outreach into research faculties to bring scientists onto the cloud platform most effectively.21:40
jmloweIt's a relatively rare opportunity to connect with those architects and admins21:40
b1airoBut possible focus areas like workload traces and dataset sharing are much more concretely relevant to researchers21:41
oneswigIt's about bringing the benefits of cloud to their workflows?21:41
jmloweWe have on open job, just posted last week to higher another, Jeremy Fischer from IU is our "ResOps" person and we need another21:41
oneswig#topic Why do researchers choose OpenStack as their IaaS platform?21:42
*** openstack changes topic to "Why do researchers choose OpenStack as their IaaS platform? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:42
martialor maybe: Researchers and students often encounter needs for High Performance Computing or Distributed Computing, or simply for Infrastructure as a Service components. The SWG help aggregate knowledge of user and operators who have tried to setup and use such models and can help guide the research model for functional solutions21:42
b1airoThere is also interest amongst us in scientific application sharing/packaging for cloud21:42
martial(oops too late on the last one)21:42
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martialThe traditional HPC model is limited in what it can achieve, novel solutions based on Mesos, Kubernetes, OpenStack allow the deployments of specialized solutions on Commercial Of the Shelf as well as specialized hardware21:43
b1airoLots of reasons for that - flexibility in architecture, security, data locality21:43
oneswigResearch computing services see the advantages of converging a zoo of clusters into a single managed resource.  Academia, as much as anywhere, suffers from beige-box "shadow IT"21:44
trandlesBecause it's free (as-in money and open source) with a large, very active community.  I don't feel like I'll suddenly be left with an abandoned platform when choosing OpenStack.21:44
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martialSpartan talk ...21:44
rbuddentrandles: +121:44
martial#link https://www.openstack.org/videos/barcelona-2016/spartan-a-hpc-cloud-hybrid-delivering-performance-and-flexibility21:44
rbuddencost and community are two major factors21:44
oneswigOpenStack is free if your time costs you nothing!21:44
jmloweIt is the defacto standard, from the campus, to the regional like Minnesota Supercomputing Institute to the National like Jetstream and bridges, and even international SKA, Nektar ( international depends on where you are standing) you have a uniform api for programmable cyber-infrastructure (tm)21:45
martialtm included I see21:45
oneswigb1airo: surprised you're letting the guys from across town get away without some comment on the local derby...21:45
jmloweI could fill the rest of the meeting with discussion of that term21:45
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oneswigjmlowe: you ever applied for funding for something? :-)21:46
trandlesas long as I get everything done that the program demands, my time is free when working on "free" software :P21:46
oneswig#topic What are the key difference between scientific OpenStack Clouds and other general OpenStack Clouds?21:46
*** openstack changes topic to "What are the key difference between scientific OpenStack Clouds and other general OpenStack Clouds? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:46
b1airooneswig: old news, they do what we do 12 months later :-)21:46
jmloweone pi coined cyber-infrastructure another added programmable21:47
oneswigOK, this is where the bulk of the WG's value add comes in.21:47
b1airoIntegration with other research infrastructure is probably the big difference, e.g., major HPC, data archives, instruments21:48
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jmloweThe mix of memory, interconnect, networks local and upstream, experienced HPC staff, access to large parallel filesystems21:48
b1airoScientific deployments are also often quite open, e.g., outside the institutional firewall21:49
trandlesDifferent workload characteristics (that we're struggling to characterize effectively)21:49
oneswigFor us, there's problems that run on our cloud that are affected by Amdahl's law.  Cloud workloads typically scale out in a way that scientific applications don't (or can't).  Tight coupling between instances is the principal expression of this difference in application.21:49
jmloweif you are running a big pile of webservers you aren't going to have the same rule of thumb for processors to memory21:49
rbuddenjmlowe: +1 unique hardware definitely sets things appart21:49
martialthe SWG is about the use cases of integration of novel HPC models within a research cloud, including the use of specialized hardware (from GPUs to NUMA links) as well as specialized methodologies or distributed algorithms (MPI, ...)21:49
oneswigWhat jmlowe said is pretty much what I menat21:49
oneswig... meant...21:49
martial(10 minutes mark)21:50
oneswig#topic What kinds of workloads do researchers run on their OpenStack Clouds?21:50
*** openstack changes topic to "What kinds of workloads do researchers run on their OpenStack Clouds? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:50
martialMachine learning training models21:50
martialData Science evaluations21:50
b1airoEasy: all of the workloads, and then some21:50
jmloweoneswig: you should flog your Lugano talk, the video is posted, very compelling case for doing all the above in research with openstack21:50
martialNatural Language Processing, Machine Translation, Video Surveillance, ...21:51
trandlesdata science frameworks that don't play well with HPC workload managers (DASK, Spark, etc.)21:51
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martialTim: did no say HPC in this particular case21:51
martialsimply OpenStack21:51
jmloweI've got a guy from UTSA running NAMD doing mpi over our 10GigE vxlan tenant networks21:52
oneswigWe've worked on a couple of generic research computing resources which take all-comers.  But we've also seen some very specialised applications such as  medical informatics, or radio astronomy.  Much of it is categorised as "the long tail of HPC", ie the stuff that doesn't fit well into conventional HPC infrastructure21:52
martialbut I agree with earlier comments, think of a topic ... OpenStack can likely do it21:52
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oneswig#topic How can researchers speed up their work with OpenStack?21:52
*** openstack changes topic to "How can researchers speed up their work with OpenStack? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:52
martial(and make coffee and pancakes :) ... )21:52
jmlowelots and lots of educational allocations on our clouds21:52
oneswigIs this about the fabled metric of "time to paper"?21:52
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jmloweOne great way to speed things up is with orchestration and the higher level openstack projects21:54
oneswigIt's about the situations where the development cycles spend as much time between keyboard and chair as they do between compute, network and storage.  If researchers can get up and running (and stay up and running) faster with OpenStack, it's a win.21:54
trandlesResearchers can speed up their work by using a runtime environment they control at a scale they might not be able to afford or support.21:54
jmloweso crawl with nova boot, walk with heat, run with sahara21:54
oneswigjmlowe: what's next after that?21:54
martialheat templates, ansible [why is the name failing me now], VM configurations => experiment => mutli tenant + ro data access + SDN=> segregated private experiment run21:54
oneswig#topic What kinds of challenges do researchers face when using OpenStack clouds in their organization?21:55
martial=> repeatibility21:55
*** openstack changes topic to "What kinds of challenges do researchers face when using OpenStack clouds in their organization? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:55
jmloweI had a guy who spent a couple of days trying to run some generic k8s heat template from a tutorial somewhere, had him just use magnum and he was off and running on his k8s cluster in 10 min, enter at the level of customization you need and forget the rest21:55
b1airoBiggest challenge we see is that researchers are not sysadmins21:56
trandlesb1airo: +1  That's how we justify our entire existence.  We focus on the computing infrastructure so they can focus on being scientists.21:56
martialI like that21:57
jmloweone of the major problems I havae with reproducability is the idea that you keep everything the same, reproducability is not me going into your lab and using your graduated cylinders etc, it is me doing it with my equipment and getting roughly the same results21:57
rbuddenb1airo: +121:57
flanders_Scientific-wg tagline?!21:57
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b1airoYeah and then the corollary challenge for us is how much effort to spend on the infrastructure versus helping with the science21:57
jmloweb1airo: +121:58
martialflanders_ +1 :)21:58
rbuddenyep, ‘user services’ vs ‘facilities’21:58
oneswigThere's a difference in mindset.  Research computing has this level of order that doesn't apply in cloud.  HPC users assume they can book a number of physical nodes and network switches.  There's time sharing and strict queuing.  In comparison, cloud users get resource like they're crowding round an ice cream shop!21:58
oneswig#topic What features are missing in OpenStack to provide better infrastructure for scientific research?21:59
*** openstack changes topic to "What features are missing in OpenStack to provide better infrastructure for scientific research? (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)"21:59
oneswigNext meeting perhaps...?  This could take a little while21:59
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jmlowespot instances?21:59
trandleslol but it's our chance to be selfish21:59
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oneswigpreemptible instances and resource reservation has been a long-sought-after goal21:59
b1airoYeah maybe we should carry those two over to next meeting...21:59
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oneswigAlas, we are out of time.22:00
martial(not sure there is a meeting after, so if we need to overrun, others can tell us :) )22:00
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oneswigpipe up if you're waiting or we'll nail this last question...22:00
martial(and we can move the the #scientific-wg if needed)22:01
martialseems we can go on22:01
martialanswers anybody?22:01
oneswigWhen looking at HPC workloads on OpenStack, exposing physical resource into the virtual world has been key for hypervisor efficiency gains.  The next level may be placement within the physical network.  How can we deliver the benefits of cloud but pare it down to something so close to the metal?22:02
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trandlesthat question would have been a lot easier a couple years ago but now I feel like a lot of gaps are being filled22:03
oneswigIn essence a lot of the WG members are "physicalising" the virtual resources, and somehow the OpenStack managed infrastructure is still flexible enough to be a game changer.22:03
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oneswig... final comments ?22:04
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oneswigOK, lets wrap up - thanks everyone22:05
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"22:05
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 16 22:05:12 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:05
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2017/scientific_wg.2017-05-16-21.01.html22:05
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2017/scientific_wg.2017-05-16-21.01.txt22:05
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2017/scientific_wg.2017-05-16-21.01.log.html22:05
trandlessee you in #scientific-wg22:05
martialthanks all22:05
martialstig, blair: are we pointing the reporter to our logs?22:06
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