Thursday, 2018-05-10

*** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc00:12
*** dklyle has quit IRC00:14
*** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc00:14
*** zhipeng has joined #openstack-tc00:33
*** zhipeng has quit IRC00:35
*** ricolin has joined #openstack-tc01:51
*** kumarmn has quit IRC06:52
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc07:05
*** kumarmn has quit IRC07:09
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc07:14
*** kumarmn has quit IRC07:19
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc07:35
*** kumarmn has quit IRC07:39
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc07:45
*** kumarmn has quit IRC07:49
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc07:55
*** kumarmn has quit IRC07:59
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc08:05
*** jpich has joined #openstack-tc08:05
*** kumarmn has quit IRC08:09
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc08:25
*** kumarmn has quit IRC08:29
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc08:35
*** kumarmn has quit IRC08:39
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc08:44
*** kumarmn has quit IRC08:49
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc08:54
*** kumarmn has quit IRC08:59
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc09:04
*** kumarmn has quit IRC09:09
*** johnthetubaguy has quit IRC09:09
*** johnthetubaguy has joined #openstack-tc09:10
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc09:14
*** kumarmn has quit IRC09:19
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc09:24
*** kumarmn has quit IRC09:29
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc09:34
*** kumarmn has quit IRC09:39
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc09:40
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc09:45
*** kumarmn has quit IRC09:49
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc09:55
*** kumarmn has quit IRC09:59
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc10:15
*** kumarmn has quit IRC10:19
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc10:35
*** kumarmn has quit IRC10:39
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc10:45
*** kumarmn has quit IRC10:49
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc11:05
*** kumarmn has quit IRC11:09
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc11:15
*** kumarmn has quit IRC11:19
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc11:25
*** kumarmn has quit IRC11:29
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc11:35
*** kumarmn has quit IRC11:39
*** cdent has quit IRC11:42
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc11:44
*** rosmaita has joined #openstack-tc11:45
*** kumarmn has quit IRC11:49
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc11:51
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc11:54
*** kumarmn has quit IRC11:59
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc12:04
*** kumarmn has quit IRC12:09
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc12:14
*** kumarmn has quit IRC12:19
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc12:24
*** kumarmn has quit IRC12:29
smcginnisMorning dims13:05
dimshey smcginnis13:05
smcginnisAnyone know if the Board/TC/UC dinner is officially Saturday evening? I haven't seen anything announced.13:09
cdentI hope not, cuz I won't be there then, and want free dinner :)13:10
smcginnisMe too.13:11
cdentif it turns out it is then, we can take each other to dinner later and then it will seem free13:13
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc13:14
mugsieI may be in the city by then but not sure about going from a 9 hr flight straight to dinner :)13:20
*** kumarmn has quit IRC13:22
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc13:23
*** kumarmn has quit IRC13:27
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc13:33
*** kumarmn_ has joined #openstack-tc13:37
*** mriedem has joined #openstack-tc13:37
*** kumarmn has quit IRC13:37
*** dklyle has quit IRC13:40
* mnaser will be around on saturday as well13:42
zanebI'm arriving about 8pm, so would also miss it if it's on Saturday13:42
mnaserdhellmann: small heads up, the dependent change merged -- :)13:42
* mnaser is arriving bright and early at 9am13:43
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc13:49
*** hongbin has joined #openstack-tc13:55
*** annabelleB has quit IRC13:59
pabelangermnaser: which day?14:07
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc14:12
*** zhipeng has joined #openstack-tc14:20
zanebpabelanger: I'm inferring he meant Saturday14:21
*** cdent has quit IRC14:34
*** cdent has joined #openstack-tc14:35
*** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc14:36
*** zhipeng has quit IRC14:39
mnaserpabelanger, zaneb: correct, im coming in on saturday :)14:50
* dhellmann will be late15:01
ttxtc-members assemble15:01
* ttx will leave early15:01
* cdent transforms15:01
* dims pays attention15:01
* ttx has entered the summit prep vortex and might not be very useful again before it's June15:02
* jroll pokes his head in15:02
fungii spent the better part of a day just figuring out what my schedule will look like that week (and i'm not quite done yet either)15:02
* mnaser has to get around doing that15:03
* smcginnis does too15:03
mnaseri'm excited about the discussion about what is an openstack official project.  i do feel a bit for adrian15:03
mnaserhe has been *very* patient to pursue this for close to 2 months15:03
zanebduring the election campaign a number of TC members not up for re-election said that they would provide answers to dhellmann's mailing list questions after the election15:04
zanebI still think that would be very interesting, and it is now after the election :)15:04
mnaserzaneb: perhaps we can reply to that ML post just to put their eyes on it again15:04
dtroyer_zzzaneb: maybe after May 15 I'll have time to do that… or over $COLD_BEVERAGE in YVR15:04
ttxFor whoever is interested, I did write up notes from the K8s/OpenStack community discussions in Copenhagen.15:05
cdentmnaser: if you've got thoughts on that that you can get down on the etherpad before the session, that would be awesome15:05
ttxSee bottom of
cdent(where that is official project session)15:05
mnasercdent: i'll collect some, because i think that ties into the whole "getting more new contributions in openstack" theme..15:05
dtroyer_zzttx: thanks, I read them and that sort of thing has suddenly become even more interesting to me than a few months ago :)15:05
ttxA few things that were interesting that I may not have mentioned yet:15:06
ttxTheir use of "shadow roles" was quite successful in fostering healthy leadership rotation15:06
mnasermaking someone go through 2 months just to become an official project is a bit rough, and having very clear rules about it makes it more easy to get a "yes" or "no" right away15:07
ttxThey have very similar discussions around stable maint and LTS. They don't have a definitive stance on LTS yet but so far the consensus seems to be that they should have:15:07
smcginnisI also like how some of the teams have very clearly defined roles:
ttxsupport for n-2 critical bugfixes / security fixes (which means at most 8.9 month support)15:07
ttxand no LTS / extended maint, leave that to distros15:07
ttxThey don't have that much of a vocal/engaged DIY op community like we have15:08
ttxalso they still have dozens of startups on the business of productizing K8s, so ...15:08
mnaseri think party that's still because there's still 60 ways of deploying k8s15:09
zanebmnaser: clearly you don't remember the Zaqar debacle ;)15:09
ttxstill their stance is that it's not the open source project's job to do stable maint.15:09
ttxthey do minimal security maint15:09
mugsiettx: I think as more established enterprise vendors get into LTS they will have more push back15:10
ttxwhen I said that it's sad to duplicate stable maint work across distros... they said that distraos are happy top duplicate if that's the key to their monetization15:10
mugsieI know when I was on a k8s product team, we were just spending sll our time upgrading between versions, and were not as worried about LTS at that point15:11
ttxso... food for thoughts15:11
dimssome latest discussion there about releases etc -!msg/kubernetes-sig-architecture/NLhJ7wAliA0/t7gJ9RvbBgAJ15:11
cdent"still their stance is that it's not the open source project's job to do stable maint." I mostly agree with that15:11
mnaserinteresting concept, though as someone who works 100% open source, i appreciate the lack of duplication and the fact that i can deploy stable/queens without worrying about any problems (or i can backport things as i need to)15:11
ttxThey are aware of the limitations of a number of things they do (video meetings, GitHub) but it's likely too late to evolve that15:11
mugsieI do like the SIG Co-Lead ideas, I haven't seen much on shadow roles - is that the co-lead idea, or a separate thing?15:12
mnaserlast thing i want to do is maintain our own branches with a bunch of our own fixes.  i feel that'll increase the barrier to deployment for those who are looking to deploy without relying on $vendor15:12
ttxThey said video meetings are a great way to foster trust / good feels, something we use in-person events to foster... so it's all a trade-off15:13
cdentthe in-person events are often too far apart for the good feels....15:13
zanebttx: wearing my distro hat, it annoys me that much of the work I do on long-term maintenance doesn't have a venue where I can share it with the rest of the community. ymmv15:13
ttxzaneb: yeah, I'm not sure I agree 100% with their stance on that15:14
fungias a proponent of non-commercial, volunteer-maintained distros i find the idea of relying on monetization and productization within distros a bit fanciful15:14
ttxOtherwise my general feeling was that OpenStack is no longer the counterexample joke in discussions, but more taken as an example in things they also encounter15:16
mugsiethey also have a different usage pattern - a lot of k8s users will use GKE / Azure / Whatever AWS's thing is, which lifts a lot of the LTS burden, as they are kept up to date15:16
ttxsncwould you agree ?15:16
ttxsmcginnis: would you agree ?15:16
fungiyou could just as well argue that if enough users want to use a stabilized branch/fork of the software then some interested users for those distros may step up to carry and support it... but it certainly reduces the likelihood15:16
cdentFor me it is more a matter of being able to pick and choose and focus on what matters in a sane fashion. Being all things to all people is hard for any community that wants to consider itself a _single_ community to do.15:16
ttxLess "OpenStack done right" and more "you've been there before"15:17
*** david-lyle has joined #openstack-tc15:17
zanebthe shoe is on the other foot now :D15:17
*** david-lyle has quit IRC15:18
ttxAlso quite a lot of "you did that right in openStack" which is really new :)15:18
mugsiethat is a good change - I have seen more positive messages on social media recently indicating a change as well. More "Colaborate" and less "Compete"15:19
ttxOverall a lot less snark as they realize that most of our woes come with the open collaboration territory15:19
fungilooking at the state of the kubernetes-master package in debian, i expect the odds of it even making it into the next stable release in a year-ish are pretty low15:19
dimsanother interesting read is the new charter for each SIG. each SIG kinda lays down how they will work. here's the one from SIG Node -
mugsiefungi: there is no way they could add it, unless someone stepped up to own it for X years though, right?15:19
fungimugsie: well, it's not that formal. but to a great extent that's the expectation anyway15:20
mugsie(I seem to remember having to step up and agree to own designate bugs for x period before)15:20
fungiif you're not an official debian developer then your sponsor may have asked you that... i'd be surprised if the ftpmaster asked a dd that though15:21
dimsfungi : they had an interesting answer for lack of new etcd in distros ... just run etcd in containers15:21
fungier, the ftpmaster team15:21
fungidims: right. containers don't need an operating system. they're magic! ;)15:21
mugsiedims: the default way to deploy kubernetes is all in containers now, isnt it?15:22
dimsmugsie : some do, some dont.15:22
smcginnisttx: Sorry, had to step away for a minute. Yeah, I thought the feels towards OpenStack were much more positive than they were in Austin.15:23
ttxshameless plug: I posted a piece on what I mean by "open infrastructure" at -- I would very much like to know if that resonates with y'all or if you think completely differently on that topic15:24
smcginnisttx: Read it - very nicely written.15:24
ttxTL;DR: "voices are being raised against the inevitability of a future in which all of the world's infrastructure needs will be met by "The Big 3.""15:24
ttxsince open infra is a bit of a buzzword I thought defining what I personally meant by it could help15:25
dims"inherent mistrust of American suppliers" ... case in point ZTE15:25
fungiif i put my outside skeptic hat on, it seems like an openstack sales pitch a tiny bit... enough that it might turn off some readers, maybe? but if the intended audience isn't technically-inclined skeptics then i think it's spot on15:25
ttxthe piece was originally written for a French audience, hence the anti-American subline :)15:26
dimsaha :)15:26
fungilike, i can see someone reading into the several mentions/recommendations of openstack along with your bio of being involved in openstack15:26
ttxfungi: I did not translate it myself, and they added a bit of OpenStack promotion bits yes15:26
ttxsaved me time so I did not complain too much15:27
fungiheh, efficient!15:27
* dims back in a bit15:27
ttxNot bad translation too15:27
ttxLike the Summit plug at the end was not in the original column :)15:28
mugsieI think the plugging is fine, it is not unexpected if someone works on a tech in an area, they will promote that tech when writing.15:28
*** dklyle has quit IRC15:28
ttx(original ended with a Gibson quote)15:28
fungisure, though it does cause it to come across as inherently biased15:28
fungii'd have probably appreciated the gibson quote more, personally ;)15:29
ttxWell, it's a well-known quote for a US audience, but I figured the French could benefit from it15:29
fungithat said, i don't see promoting openstack as negative, but i'm almost certainly also biased ;)15:30
ttxok jumping to next call15:32
*** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc15:33
smcginnisOh shoot, forgot to ask about the dinner. :)15:33
smcginnisttx: If you're still kind of around - did you say Board/TC/UC dinner plans had been made?15:34
fungilast i heard, alan decided against doing anything formal but that doesn't prevent something informally-organized15:34
smcginnisOh, OK.15:35
ttxI saw Alan saying somewhere that we would join the diversity Happy hour / dinner15:35
ttxon Sunday evening15:35
smcginnisRSVP required for that. So should we all RSVP?15:35
ttxI can ask15:35
fungithat seems a much better way of promoting inclusiveness in the community than having what might be construed as an expensive and exclusive leadership dinner15:35
mugsieIt is no core party though15:36
* mugsie ducks15:36
fungii rsvp'd for that back when spotz first mentioned it on the ml (i forget which one... might have been foundation@?)15:36
smcginnisProblem is it doesn't seem I can bring my spouse along since you need to register.15:37
cdentsmcginnis: yeah, same problem15:39
cdentwhich is why I'll have to take you to donner15:40
cdentand dinner too15:40
fungii like donner better15:40
smcginnisAnd my wife can buy your wife dinner. Still a good plan. ;)15:40
fungiwe could throw a donner party15:40
smcginnisHaha, I was trying not to go there.15:41
* fungi probably shouldn't have, but couldn't resist the temptation15:41
fungii mean, it's roughly the right part of the continent15:41
cdentoffice hours a bit slow lately15:50
cdenti guess after summit they might kick up again. given the level of "let's be active" in the campaigning I hope that's the case15:50
cdentwe should be vociferously arguing all day long or something15:51
smcginnisI can say for my part, I am way too distracted with Summit and Forum prep than I would like to be.15:51
* cdent nods15:51
cdentI will be in that state soon enough15:52
smcginnisI'm travelling next week too, so I need to try to wrap up what I can this week.15:52
cdentyou are a busy person15:54
fungiyeah, i predict that probably a week after summit when we've mostly recovered from the frenzy, we'll be back to our chatty selves again15:54
ttxsmcginnis: No need to RSVP for dinner, the TC+UC+Staff+Board group is accounted for16:19
smcginnisttx: OK, thanks!16:23
*** annabelleB has quit IRC16:25
*** masayuki- has joined #openstack-tc16:29
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc16:30
*** jpich has quit IRC16:41
*** david-lyle has joined #openstack-tc17:11
*** dklyle has quit IRC17:14
*** david-lyle has quit IRC17:15
*** dklyle_ has joined #openstack-tc17:15
*** ricolin has quit IRC17:24
*** ianychoi_ has joined #openstack-tc17:32
*** ianychoi has quit IRC17:35
*** dklyle_ has quit IRC17:46
*** annabelleB has quit IRC17:48
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc17:53
*** kumarmn_ has quit IRC17:54
*** dklyle_ has joined #openstack-tc17:58
*** kumarmn has joined #openstack-tc18:04
*** kumarmn has quit IRC18:09
*** tbarron has quit IRC18:17
*** tbarron has joined #openstack-tc18:18
*** diablo_rojo has quit IRC18:32
*** annabelleB has quit IRC18:51
dhellmanncdent , smcginnis : maybe contact spotz about bringing +1s?18:57
smcginnisSure, I can check if that's OK.18:58
dhellmannzaneb , mnaser : please do ping on those threads to get other folks to bring up their answers, although the time between now and summit may not be ideal for deep thoughts18:58
dhellmannas far as the length of time about deciding about adjutant; I'm not sure what to do there. I hadn't even heard about the project before the application, which is just my own ignorance but it's not like I could have formed an opinion more quickly. Maybe one thing we need to be doing is outreach for new projects as they are added to project-config.19:00
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc19:04
*** dklyle_ is now known as dklyle19:50
*** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc20:06
*** annabelleB has quit IRC20:11
*** annabelleB has joined #openstack-tc20:13
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Retire kolla-kubernetes project
cdentdhellmann: as I may have already told you, much to my disappointment I'm not going to be vancouver until late afternoon on sunday so won't be making the meeting (important wedding event saturday). If you could pass along my apologies and scowl and squint every now and again for me, I'd appreciate it.20:17
dhellmanncdent : you did mention it, but thanks for reminding me20:19
cdentzaneb: fantastic question. I've worded that one in my head as "how do we ensure that the users we are making happy now aren't stopping other users from happening"20:41
cdent(or something like that)20:41
cdentsadly I think we're out of time/space for the board meeting20:41
zanebcdent: ooh, yeah, I like that20:42
* zaneb has been really struggling with the wording of that20:42
* smcginnis finally finds the question20:45
smcginnisLife, the Universe, and open source community governance20:51
smcginnisThat actually sounds like an OK talk title20:52
cdentit does20:56
dimsdiablo_rojo : so ... that session you pinged about. did anyone else volunteer?21:33
diablo_rojodims, cdent did but if you wanna stop by we would love to have you :)21:37
diablo_rojoThanks for following up too :)21:37
dimsw00t will try, just making sure you were covered21:37
cdentafter I did many others did, so gonna be a party21:37
diablo_rojodims, much appreciated!21:38
diablo_rojocdent, I added you to the schedule abstract so now you have to come :)21:38
cdentit's official!21:38
cdentcool with me21:38
diablo_rojoGonna be a party :)21:38
*** dhellmann has quit IRC22:49
*** dhellmann has joined #openstack-tc22:50
*** cdent has quit IRC22:51
*** hongbin has quit IRC22:55
*** annabelleB has quit IRC22:57
openstackgerritKendall Nelson proposed openstack/governance master: Setup Release Goal Folder for Stein
openstackgerritKendall Nelson proposed openstack/governance master: Setup Release Goal Folder for Stein
*** diablo_rojo has quit IRC23:27
*** mriedem has quit IRC23:32

Generated by 2.15.3 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!