Friday, 2018-05-11

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-openstackstatus- NOTICE: Due to a Zuul outage, patches uploaded to Gerrit between 09:00UTC and 12:50UTC, were not properly added to Zuul. Please recheck any patches during this window and apologies for the inconvenience.13:16
mnaserI was thinking this morning that related the whole "bringing new contributors" discussion, I feel like we might not be doing a good job 'on-boarding' those new potential small users and contributors13:24
mnaserFor example, #openstack channel is pretty much quiet all the time, with most people asking questions and never getting a response13:24
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mnaserI *feel* like it may paint a picture of "nobody's home" from OpenStack where as there is huge amounts of activity going in other channels13:25
mnaserwondering what others feel about this13:25
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dhellmannmnaser : I wonder how much of that is selection bias? Are we noticing people asking questions and not having them answered on IRC, but not noticing them asking elsewhere and finding their answer?13:27
dhellmannI also wonder, Is IRC even the right place to be offering support for most users? Are we hurting ourselves by having too many ways to interact with the community? Should we just encourage folks to use ask.o.o? Or something else?13:27
dhellmannit feels like a parallel to the question of how do we more effectively communicate with the contributor community, and I've started to think the answer there is to be consistent in how we use each channel we have and then train people that different things happen in different channels13:28
dhellmannof course if no one is answering user questions anywhere, moving the questions won't help, but I feel like that's not really the situation13:29
mnaserdhellmann: i agree, i do feel like this is something that i've slightly dealt with in other communities where i'll hop onto irc to ask a question or two but sitting in a channel with 700+ users and not a single word doesn't feel encouraging13:30
dhellmannsure. is that channel used for anything else any more?13:31
dhellmannor do we just have a bunch of people who haven't cleaned up their bouncer configs? :-)13:31
mnaserdhellmann: i think it's a lot of idling13:32
dhellmannwould it help to set the topic channel to indicate that?13:32
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mnaser"the openstack idling channel" :)13:33
* jrollinhatin spins up idlerpg bot and puts it in #openstack13:33
mnaserbut yes, i think the idea of "where do I go"13:34
mnaserit does seem like posting to the openstack ML is the biggest 'chance' of getting a response13:35
mnaserlooking at mailing list archives, there seems to be a fair amount of traffic there with responses13:36
smcginnisMaybe we should merge #openstack and #openstack-dev?13:36
mugsieyeah - that might be an idea13:37
mugsiebut the biggest issue (that i have seen) is that someone asks a question, and then disco's out of the room 5 mins later13:37
mugsieI have gone to answer questions an hour or so later, they are nearly always gone13:38
smcginnisTrue, I've seen that happen many times. Quite a few seconds before I hit enter to respond to them.13:38
mnaseryeah, i mean maybe we can add that little note that's in most irc channel of.. 'stick around, might be a minute'13:40
mugsieyeah - for people not used to IRC, asking and waiting is not normal13:42
cmurphywe just went through the process of retiring #openstack-101 and redirecting it to #openstack-dev13:44
cmurphy#openstack has periods of activity sometimes, it's not nearly as sad as #openstack-10113:44
dhellmannat one point we weren't even sure we wanted to keep #openstack-dev because we have a channel for every team13:45
mnaseryeah, i don't think much development goes on in #openstack-dev overall, you usually reach teams in their respective channels13:48
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mugsiexgerman_ is not wrong - it is something we should start considering14:56
cdenta) aye, b) ugh14:57
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cdentsmcginnis: bastard! ("pun intended Chris")14:58
smcginnisI so wondered if you would see that. :D14:58
cdentI considerd not saying anything, but where's the fun in that15:01
smcginnisI considered not putting that there, but couldn't resist.15:02
jrollinhatinbrings up a good question, is it our responsibility to make openstack GDPR compliant, or just to provide a toggle to allow the deployer to make that choice15:05
mugsiepersonally - I say toggle, but it is a good discussion to have.15:06
mugsiee.g. to force compliance, in designate we shouldn't take an email address to put in the SOA record for each zone15:07
jrollinhatinyeah, I'm honestly not sure what my personal opinion is15:07
mugsiebut I know people want that in other deployments15:07
mugsieand the problem is going to be waiting for the first court cases to find out what the limits actually are15:08
clarkbmugsie: you'd just have to allow for them to remove the email address right?15:08
clarkbwhich the api should already do?15:08
mugsieclarkb: it allows for it to be changed - not removed15:08
clarkbsure thats fine aiui15:08
jrollinhatinright, toggle is probably best for openstack's adoption. also best for companies that don't care about GDPR. my personal freedom hat says no toggle :)15:08
mugsiethere are a few DNS providers who are all forcibly changing the emails in SOAs to generics15:08
mugsieto just use the email, we have to gain consent, and spell out the usage, which is not done right now.15:10
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clarkbconsent would be explicitly providing it via the api right? or is it pulled from elsewhere?15:11
clarkband usage would probably fit under the same box you added it to the record explicitly via api that is how its used15:11
mugsieclarkb: at the point of capturing the information we have to explain why it is needed, and where it is used15:12
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clarkbbeyond the fact that it is part of that specific record tyep in dns and you are explicitly adding a record for it?15:14
mugsieit is provided as part of the zone create - not the record15:14
clarkbI guess that is because zone needs an soa15:15
clarkbwhich may be a bit more abstract that I was initially thinking15:15
mugsieyeah. it does get a bit complicated15:18
clarkbhowever, you can update that via the api so at least that side of things is covered. You probably just need to explain in api docs "this info goes in the soa record for the new zone" and are done15:20
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dhellmannthese feel like questions for the openstack-legal mailing list15:28
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smcginnisNot really a TC thing, but I noticed some of the corporate sponsors listed here don't exist anymore:
clarkbsmcginnis: is the bug tracker for that site16:24
clarkbprobably best place to report stuff like that16:24
smcginnisclarkb: Cool, I'll note that there if I don't see anything already addressing it.16:24
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mnaserTIL GCP is a corporate sponsor17:06
smcginnismnaser: There was some big press announcement when that happened. A while ago now though.17:07
smcginnisI never really saw much happen other than they paid a contractor to write a Cinder backup driver to backup volumes to Google cloud storage.17:08
mnaser interesting comparison document17:09
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clarkbmnaser: it actually seems like a reasonable comparison. There are a couple issues with some factual data but overall seems to be pretty good. (For example you can do live migration with non shared ephemeral disks, in fact we test it in the gate iirc)17:20
mnaserclarkb: yeah and it seems to be skip a few services (ex: google cloud dns but no mention of designate), databases with no mention of trove/sahara17:21
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cdentI wonder, I'd really like the TC, or some delegation thereof, to be more like what Kevin describes in his recent response on zaneb's thread19:13
smcginnisConstellations are just a documentation construct, but I wonder if they will end up being useful for identifying missing needs.19:19
smcginnisAs in, if someone comes in with a need that can't be matched up with an existing constellation, could that lead to the formation of a new constellation and knowing which pieces are missing to form it.19:20
smcginniscdent: Are you referring to the three bullet items?19:23
zanebcdent, kfox1111: yeah, I have been saying for a while (like, at least 4 years) that one of our problems is that nobody is designing OpenStack at a high level (that is, a level above that of individual projects)19:23
cdentzaneb: ditto19:24
zanebI had hopes that maybe the architecture working group would turn out to be that19:24
cdentsmcginnis: pretty much19:24
smcginnis1 I think is the foundation and the vendors that are trying to sell OpenStack as a solution to their users.19:24
zanebbut then they seemed more focused on inside-baseball stuff (which is also important, but slightly different), and even then couldn't find people to work on it19:24
smcginnisI think we need 3, but to a degree that is what we do. But without authority to tell contributors what to do, that's hard to direct a volunteer workforce to follow.19:25
cdentI arch wg was unable to overcome project silo intertia19:25
zanebsmcginnis: I'm pretty skeptical of the idea that the only kind of leadership is the kind that involves the authority to tell people what to do19:31
cdentI think what need is not more authority, but more explicitness about direction. I've asserted many times that there's not enough gravity. that is, we as a community do not produce enough what amounts to religion to believe in.19:36
cdentthird party authority19:37
smcginniszaneb: Maybe authority is not the right word for it.19:37
smcginniszaneb: But we've been telling Foundation member companies that we need resources working on some of these commons, but don't get much visible action on that.19:38
smcginnisMaybe that's a discussion we should have - how to get things done without direct authority to tell people to do it.19:39
zanebthat's a problem, and it would be nice to have more people19:43
zanebbut explaining to (& listening to!) the people we have now how their work fits in as part of a greater whole is free19:44
cdentthere does need to be a lot more of that19:49
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openstackgerritZane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Clarify new project requirements for affiliation diversity
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dhellmannI think some of the frustration that I have with talking about this topic is that folks are focused on adding a layer of formality around a practice that ultimately comes down to an individual or small group picking an important topic, mustering support in a sufficient portion of the community, and then driving the work to completion.23:42
dhellmannIt's a bit like the recent discussion with lbragstad about how to deal with the standardization of RBAC roles. We don't need a global specs review process. We need people who understand the issue to explain it to the rest of us and convince us they have a plan (or build one together with us) and then we need to do it.23:43
dhellmannMaybe that over-simplifies things, or I'm missing something about what is actually being proposed, though.23:43

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