| fungi | remote: https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ossa/+/948836 Enact TC resolution to oversee all repos [NEW] | 00:34 |
|---|---|---|
| fungi | i'm in meatspace meetings all this week, so will likely miss the tc meeting, but will catch up from logs after the fact | 00:39 |
| * gouthamr til “meatspace” | 01:04 | |
| gouthamr | ack fungi - all the best for the immersive event | 01:05 |
| fungi | jargon file to the rescue | 01:07 |
| Uggla | Hello, can you have a look at https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/election/+/946324 , I think it is ok. | 14:56 |
| frickler | Uggla: that is more something for the election team, TC doesn't have +2 on that repo (#openstack-election) | 14:59 |
| Uggla | frickler, oh sorry I thought election was linked to tc group. | 15:00 |
| fungi | Uggla: the volunteer election officials also serve as caretakers for the election repo | 15:06 |
| Uggla | ok good to know. I have asked on the #openstack-election channel. | 15:08 |
| gouthamr | tc-members: gentle reminder that we're meeting on Zoom and here in ~58 minutes | 16:03 |
| gouthamr | also, there's an informal discussion on OpenInfra AI policy ongoing right now: https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/board-informal-ai-contribution | 16:03 |
| gouthamr | (please find the Zoom link in the etherpad) | 16:04 |
| gouthamr | #startmeeting tc | 17:00 |
| opendevmeet | Meeting started Tue May 6 17:00:29 2025 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is gouthamr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| opendevmeet | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| opendevmeet | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 17:00 |
| gouthamr | #info Today's meeting is being held primarily via video call. Action items and meeting minutes will be documented in IRC but for a full replay of the meeting, please visit the OpenStack TC youtube channel, where the recording will be uploaded soon. | 17:01 |
| gouthamr | #link https://www.youtube.com/@openstack-tc | 17:01 |
| gouthamr | Welcome to the weekly meeting of the OpenStack Technical Committee. A reminder that this meeting is held under the OpenInfra Code of Conduct available at https://openinfra.dev/legal/code-of-conduct. | 17:01 |
| gouthamr | Today's meeting agenda can be found at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 17:01 |
| gouthamr | ^ Zoom link here as well | 17:01 |
| gouthamr | #topic Roll Call | 17:01 |
| gmaan | o/ | 17:02 |
| gtema | o/ | 17:02 |
| noonedeadpunk | o/ | 17:02 |
| cardoe | o/ | 17:02 |
| opendevreview | Merged openstack/project-team-guide master: Drop "ossg" reference from Vulnerability Mgmt guide https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/project-team-guide/+/947150 | 17:02 |
| bauzas | o/ | 17:03 |
| gouthamr | courtesy-ping: mnasiadka | 17:04 |
| gouthamr | also on the video call: spotz[m] | 17:04 |
| gouthamr | #topic Last Week's AIs | 17:04 |
| gouthamr | still working on bumping the mailing list thread on Skyline SBOM to restart discussion | 17:05 |
| gouthamr | gmaan: mentioned that there's no new update wrt projects outside the integrated gate testing as far as grenade jobs are concerned | 17:06 |
| gouthamr | he'll be checking later today | 17:06 |
| gouthamr | we merged the VMT scope expansion resolution | 17:07 |
| mnasiadka | o/ | 17:07 |
| gouthamr | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons#Vulnerability_management | 17:07 |
| gouthamr | bauzas and i have been added here as TC/VMT liaisons | 17:07 |
| bauzas | +1 | 17:08 |
| gouthamr | #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ossa/+/948836 (Enact TC resolution to oversee all repos) | 17:08 |
| gouthamr | ^ follow up wrt the resolution | 17:08 |
| gmaan | #link https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/new-projects-requirements.html | 17:09 |
| gouthamr | ^ we could mention the VMT process here | 17:09 |
| gouthamr | #action: add a link to the VMT overview/process to the new project requirements | 17:10 |
| gmaan | ++, thanks | 17:10 |
| gouthamr | further steps: we need to discuss with each project team and get them to refresh the security liaisons and coresec teams | 17:11 |
| gouthamr | we've been encouraging this from the PTG and in subsequent TC meeting notes | 17:11 |
| fungi | i have a brief lunch break, let me know when/where the tc escalation volunteers get published so we can link there in our process too | 17:11 |
| gouthamr | fungi: added to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons#Vulnerability_management | 17:12 |
| fungi | oh already there, thanks! | 17:12 |
| fungi | i'll get that bit of process written up soon | 17:12 |
| gouthamr | bauzas is asking what documents should liaisons be aware of | 17:12 |
| fungi | security.openstack.org | 17:12 |
| gouthamr | ++ fungi | 17:13 |
| gouthamr | TC liaisons will be looking at the same wiki to locate project liaisons, and coresec groups | 17:15 |
| gouthamr | if these liaisons are unresponsive, PTLs could be the next escalation | 17:16 |
| JayF | VMT is in #openstack-security as well, and willing to answer any questions/concerns that liasons might have (TC or project) | 17:16 |
| gouthamr | ty JayF | 17:18 |
| gouthamr | we are chatting about how to escalate an issue with an unresponsive PTL/Security Liaisons | 17:22 |
| gouthamr | gerrit groups are a good goto resource to find other project contributors to loop in during those rare circumstances | 17:22 |
| gouthamr | next AI: | 17:23 |
| gouthamr | please update your OpenInfra Foundation profiles up to date with affiliation changes | 17:23 |
| gouthamr | gah | 17:24 |
| gouthamr | keep your OpenInfra Foundation profiles up to date with affiliation changes | 17:24 |
| gouthamr | last AI was on improving SIG documentation and onboarding | 17:24 |
| gouthamr | no progress to note here | 17:25 |
| gouthamr | we probably need some bright ideas, and can continue brainstorming that together | 17:25 |
| cardoe | gouthamr: I think it was me for ansible collections? | 17:26 |
| cardoe | So there' | 17:26 |
| cardoe | So there's 2 reviewers. gtema and another. The other person has stepped back from OpenStack work. | 17:27 |
| gouthamr | ah, ty cardoe | 17:27 |
| cardoe | patches need 2 reviews to be merged. | 17:27 |
| gouthamr | we're in a conundrum with SIGs, noonedeadpunk mentions - where we want to add some processes to keep SIGs sustainable | 17:28 |
| cardoe | So we need to be able to identify a project that's lost quorum of sorts. | 17:28 |
| gouthamr | but, SIGs are lightweight and bureaucracy free for a reason.. | 17:29 |
| gouthamr | cardoe: https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/project-team-guide/+/948484 | 17:29 |
| gouthamr | we are discussing unresponsive SIG chairs | 17:32 |
| gouthamr | and what to do when something a SIG maintains cannot be contributed to.. | 17:34 |
| gouthamr | if a SIG deliverable is deemed useful by project teams, they should take over.. if licensing allows for it, or in the end, fork the project | 17:35 |
| gouthamr | there are examples being provided on the call about how contributors are interested in the openstack-ansible-collections repo, currently owned by the ansible SIG | 17:36 |
| gouthamr | noonedeadpunk notes that the repo has 9 new/unique contributors in the past couple weeks | 17:37 |
| gouthamr | its a useful project, but, project teams haven't stepped up to maintain it | 17:38 |
| gouthamr | bauzas asks if we can annotate the project further to advertise its poor maintenance? | 17:40 |
| gouthamr | the tests/CI jobs running against ansible-collections-openstack aren't sufficient | 17:41 |
| gouthamr | that explains all the bug reports and activity against it | 17:42 |
| gouthamr | openstacksdk-core participates in reviews, and gtema is an active maintainer here | 17:42 |
| gouthamr | the only active maintainer per this list: | 17:43 |
| gouthamr | https://review.opendev.org/admin/groups/0e01228e912733e8b9a8d957631e41665aa0ffbd,members | 17:43 |
| gtema | sdk-cores is also in the list, and it is slightly bigger | 17:45 |
| gtema | so it's technically more than a single maintainer | 17:45 |
| gouthamr | we kinda stepped into the weeds here | 17:45 |
| gouthamr | so stepping back | 17:46 |
| gouthamr | any other AIs that anyone else was tracking | 17:46 |
| gouthamr | ? | 17:46 |
| gouthamr | sounds like none | 17:46 |
| gouthamr | #topic OpenInfra OS/AI WG | 17:46 |
| gouthamr | First Reference Architecture Show & Tell and will feature FPT Smart Cloud | 17:46 |
| gouthamr | meeting is on Monday, May 12 at 10am CT / 1500 UTC. The agenda and dial-in information are available here | 17:46 |
| gouthamr | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/OpenInfra_AI (OpenInfra OS/AI WG meetings) | 17:46 |
| bauzas | noted, will try to join ^ | 17:47 |
| gouthamr | if you're interested to join this, please save the date | 17:48 |
| gouthamr | #link https://lists.openinfra.org/mailman3/lists/ai-openstack-wg.lists.openinfra.org/ | 17:48 |
| gouthamr | bauzas says that he'll join these calls regularly to share his GPU expertise with the group | 17:48 |
| gouthamr | and can relay information that teh TC needs to care about | 17:48 |
| gouthamr | #topic Working on our async workflow to be more effective in async workflows | 17:49 |
| gouthamr | scheduling regular reviews of docs / policies / etc. | 17:50 |
| gouthamr | establish an overall "developer experience" focus / review to attempt to improve the "developer experience" over the whole of OpenStack | 17:50 |
| gouthamr | cardoe added these notes under the TC's PTG's section on improving the developer experience | 17:51 |
| JayF | gouthamr: fwiw, that list is indicated as private | 17:51 |
| gouthamr | JayF: ack, i brought that up on the call.. i can check with aprice why that's the reason.. but, it allows subscriptions | 17:51 |
| JayF | ++ okie dokie | 17:52 |
| fungi | it's a list for coordinating the whitepaper between the contributing org representatives who volunteered to work on it, afaik | 17:52 |
| gouthamr | cardoe is seeking feedback from contributors about their challenges | 17:52 |
| gouthamr | think fungi has a link for this! | 17:52 |
| gouthamr | #link https://lists.openstack.org/archives/list/openstack-discuss@lists.openstack.org/message/HE7JRHIBES5TPCGMVHG3XYI5TYUY5KIS/ (Reminder: Contributor and maintainer surveys (was: Bridging the gap...)) | 17:53 |
| fungi | not handy, but the "bridging the gap" mailing list thread has links to resources about ongoing efforts for improving contributor experience | 17:53 |
| fungi | (and maintainer experiences too) | 17:54 |
| gouthamr | #link https://openinfrafoundation.formstack.com/forms/openstack_maintainer_satisfaction_survey (OpenStack Maintainer Satisfaction survey) | 17:54 |
| fungi | we're still collecting submissions for both of those surveys too, and will take later feedback into account in followup analyses | 17:54 |
| gouthamr | gmaan says that onboarding challenges were usually addressed through the First Contact SIG | 17:55 |
| fungi | (when the fc sig was still active anyway) | 17:55 |
| gouthamr | gmaan: its possible the SIG is less active these days, are there any particular gaps we're aware of anyway? | 17:55 |
| gouthamr | cardoe says that the openstack contributor experience is fragmented, he's unsure its a first contact sig thing because he's a seasoned contributor to some projects, but a new contributor to other projects.. and finds things challenging | 17:57 |
| gouthamr | gmaan has some feedback regarding team meetings | 17:58 |
| fungi | this is definitely something the bridging the gap effort is seeking to address | 17:58 |
| gouthamr | he says some teams don't hold the meetings they claim to hold | 17:58 |
| gouthamr | fungi++ | 17:58 |
| gouthamr | i | 17:58 |
| gouthamr | i've been taking notes, but am waiting to deliver the news that this is being worked on :) | 17:59 |
| cardoe | gtema: sorry I wasn't trying to have people pick on Keystone. I just saw your name so I used it. | 17:59 |
| gtema | no problem at all | 17:59 |
| noonedeadpunk | for me most annoying thing as contributor is absence of reviews for a very long time. This includes actiuve projects as well. And going and asking in IRC for reviews may be a deal braker for many | 17:59 |
| gouthamr | +1 | 17:59 |
| noonedeadpunk | and even if you asked - you still can be ignored there | 17:59 |
| gouthamr | bauzas: asks, "who can i ping" is usually a question one has when they have a languishing patch on gerrit | 18:00 |
| fungi | yes, that's feedback we've heard from multiple organizations/contributors and we've seen specific examples too | 18:00 |
| cardoe | ^ yeah that's been an issue for my internal teams that have been trying to contribute. they haven't known who to ping and they come and ask me. | 18:00 |
| gouthamr | #link https://docs.openstack.org/manila/latest/contributor/contributing.html#contacting-the-core-team | 18:00 |
| gouthamr | ^ all projects must have a page like this, with a section like this | 18:00 |
| fungi | e.g. someone has a languishing nova patch and pops into #openstack-nova to ask for reviews on the day after christmas | 18:00 |
| noonedeadpunk | I'm not sure how helpful is that to be honest | 18:01 |
| noonedeadpunk | as it's working very occasionally | 18:01 |
| gouthamr | #link https://governance.openstack.org/tc/goals/completed/ussuri/project-ptl-and-contrib-docs.html | 18:01 |
| gouthamr | these pages were added because of this TC goal ^ | 18:01 |
| noonedeadpunk | fungi: was it me ? :D | 18:01 |
| gouthamr | time check on this meeting | 18:01 |
| gouthamr | fungi: the cloud works on holidays :D | 18:01 |
| noonedeadpunk | As I can recall popping in some channel around last Christmas | 18:02 |
| noonedeadpunk | for me it would be fine to get replied once ppl are from holidays | 18:02 |
| noonedeadpunk | and many get that it might be not a bussiness time or smth like that | 18:03 |
| fungi | it wasn't you, but someone who was identified through member organization discussions with foundation bizdev folks | 18:03 |
| noonedeadpunk | the problem when it's never replied | 18:03 |
| fungi | someone from a member org trying to contribute and struggling and wanting to understand why they weren't getting uptake | 18:03 |
| fungi | the only one time they tried to raise attention to their changes in irc happened to be on the day after christmas when there was almost no chance anyone was looking | 18:04 |
| noonedeadpunk | :( | 18:05 |
| cardoe | Well that's on specific case. | 18:05 |
| fungi | yes, it was a more extreme example | 18:05 |
| cardoe | But there are other cases where people bring up items outside of holiday times and it takes a while to get feedback. | 18:05 |
| cardoe | We should encourage projects to review their contributor guides, core member list, and meeting details on some regular cadence. | 18:06 |
| gouthamr | we wrapped up the call on Zoom, but adding a few final thoughts from there.. | 18:06 |
| gouthamr | bauzas was supportive of a survey, and brought up specific instances where contributor experience was broken because documentation was outdated.. and core reviewers have good intentions, but haven't probably got around to make the required doc updates | 18:06 |
| fungi | my point was a lot of people attempting to contribute don't have enough awareness of the community dynamic to be able to leverage it well (and even people who are very experienced in working within our community struggle to do so a lot of the time) | 18:06 |
| bauzas | if 'bringing up' means "I created a gerrit change" and "no feedback" implies "no gerrit reviews" then I'm afraid this is not the right way to interact with a project | 18:07 |
| cardoe | I know from managing some dev teams our worst docs tend to be the docs that the team members don't look at. Which is usually around on-boarding a new team member. So I was drawing a parallel between that and contributor guides. | 18:07 |
| gouthamr | this reminds me that cardoe initially said that even doc patches from new contributors are languishing without reviews | 18:07 |
| gouthamr | all this is great feedback, and we should all take the survey fungi and the Foundation has set up | 18:07 |
| fungi | surveys (there's a maintainer survey and a contributor survey) | 18:08 |
| gouthamr | this is specifically in regard to the TC's concerns from the past regarding improving contributor experience | 18:08 |
| bauzas | gouthamr: I was more supportive of an iterative way to modify our docs | 18:08 |
| bauzas | which would be "please create the doc bug reports" | 18:08 |
| gouthamr | fungi: can we extend the said "soft deadline" to the end of this month and continue gathering feedback? | 18:08 |
| gouthamr | i want to pull the data at some point after prodding people a bit more | 18:09 |
| fungi | yes, that's exactly what we're doing. like the user survey, people can keep filling it out and we'll incorporate later submissions into subsequent analysis | 18:09 |
| cardoe | So I was thinking we essentially make a "PTL best practices". As we've said before, the PTL is like the Project Manager more than a Core Reviewer. So as the TC we should have something like "A good PTL does these things". And that would essentially include some developer / contributor experience items. | 18:09 |
| fungi | we just wanted to make some headway analyzing feedback in the first month after the release before people get too bogged down working on the next one and the cycle's experiences are fresh in their minds | 18:10 |
| gouthamr | i see... | 18:10 |
| gouthamr | i'll boost the ML post again | 18:10 |
| fungi | thanks!!! | 18:10 |
| gouthamr | tc-members: can you please do the same within the projects you contribute, and share it with all your colleagues/ downstream contributors? | 18:11 |
| gouthamr | with that, lets wrap up this meeting here.. | 18:11 |
| gouthamr | thank you all for attending | 18:11 |
| gouthamr | #endmeeting | 18:11 |
| opendevmeet | Meeting ended Tue May 6 18:11:33 2025 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:11 |
| opendevmeet | Minutes: https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2025/tc.2025-05-06-17.00.html | 18:11 |
| opendevmeet | Minutes (text): https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2025/tc.2025-05-06-17.00.txt | 18:11 |
| opendevmeet | Log: https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2025/tc.2025-05-06-17.00.log.html | 18:11 |
| cardoe | gouthamr: I've got a bunch of patches that have languished that were simple fixes. Like package in a distro was renamed and the getting started or quick install or whatever doc referenced the old one and I'm just trying to update the docs. | 18:11 |
| gouthamr | fungi: do we have an openinfra url shortener? :D | 18:11 |
| gouthamr | cardoe: sigh, yes... a number of occasional contributors have brought up that specific pain point before.. i think project cores actively driving reviews at least at a weekly cadence is necessary | 18:12 |
| gouthamr | the cinder team for instance runs a review jam for "XS" patches.. other teams may be doing similar things | 18:13 |
| gouthamr | cardoe: i'd mention this in the survey feedback as a contributor.. | 18:14 |
| JayF | bauzas: You're right that just posting a change is not the ideal way to engage with the openstack community, however, I think more and more new contributors are being trained that this is a good way to communicate with an open source project-- especially since GitHub has muddied the difference between issues and pull requests in their UI | 18:15 |
| JayF | I don't actually have a suggestion for an answer, but I do think this may be an issue where norms are changing across general open source but not for openstack | 18:15 |
| bauzas | I don't think this is particular to openstack | 18:17 |
| bauzas | please go ahead and propose a patch to the linux kernel | 18:17 |
| bauzas | I actually like the idea of the kernel team, which provides a perl script for knowing who to send the patch email https://kernelnewbies.org/FirstKernelPatch#SubmitPatch | 18:22 |
| bauzas | there is an outreachy email contact that people can reach | 18:23 |
| JayF | I don't think it's particular to openstack, no, but I think it's a pattern that can emerge among older projects. | 18:31 |
| frickler | gouthamr: we don't have an URL shortener, but I have it on my long-term todo list to set on up, with a simple gerrit driven config rather than being interactive | 18:45 |
| gouthamr | frickler: nice.. yes! i think it'll deter spammers too | 19:41 |
| fungi | gouthamr: we do not have our own url shortener, no | 20:03 |
| fungi | ah, frickler already answered, thanks! | 20:05 |
| opendevreview | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: Glossary - remove SmokeStack https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/openstack-manuals/+/948647 | 21:15 |
| opendevreview | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/security-doc master: Updated from openstack-manuals https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/security-doc/+/948954 | 21:23 |
| opendevreview | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals master: Glossary - remove Hyper-V https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/openstack-manuals/+/948640 | 21:29 |
| opendevreview | Ivan Anfimov proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: Glossary - update for term Region https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/openstack-manuals/+/948652 | 21:30 |
| opendevreview | Ivan Anfimov proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: Glossary - update for term Region https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/openstack-manuals/+/948652 | 21:30 |
| opendevreview | Ivan Anfimov proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: Glossary - remove Linux Bridge https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/openstack-manuals/+/948653 | 21:33 |
| opendevreview | Ivan Anfimov proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: Glossary - remove Linux Bridge https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/openstack-manuals/+/948653 | 21:35 |
| opendevreview | Dmitriy Chubinidze proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: Add Skyline dashboard in Glossary https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/openstack-manuals/+/948686 | 22:00 |
| opendevreview | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/security-doc master: Updated from openstack-manuals https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/security-doc/+/948954 | 22:02 |
| opendevreview | Dmitriy Chubinidze proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: Add Skyline dashboard in Glossary https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/openstack-manuals/+/948686 | 22:03 |
| opendevreview | Merged openstack/security-doc master: Updated from openstack-manuals https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/security-doc/+/948954 | 22:08 |
| opendevreview | Dmitriy Chubinidze proposed openstack/openstack-manuals master: Add Skyline dashboard in Glossary https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/openstack-manuals/+/948686 | 23:16 |
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